fowls-a-birds-msg – 5/10/11
Period fowls and birds. Period chickens. Referances. Period breeds available now. game hens. Birds as pets.
NOTE: See also the files: falconry-msg, p-falconry-bib, chicken-msg, birds-recipes-msg, livestock-msg, med-fishing-lnks, Featherd-Gold-art.
************************************************************************
NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************
From: nweders at mail.utexas.edu (ND Wederstrandt)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:18:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: SC - Good Housewifes Jewell
Here is the recipe for the Tart that includes potatoes.
To make a tarte that is a courage to a man or woman.
Take two Quinces, and two or three Burre rootes, and a potaton, and pare
your Potaton, and scrape your rootes and put them into a quart of wine, and
let them boyle till they bee tender, & put in an ounce of Dates, and when
they be boyled tender, Drawe them through a strainer, wine and all, and
then put in the yolkes of eight Egges, and the braynes of three or foure
cocke, Sparrowes, and straine them into the other, and a little Rose water,
and seeth them all with suger, Cinamon and Gynger, and Cloves and mace, and
put in a little sweet butter, and set it upon a chaffing dish of coles
between two platters, and so let it till it be somethingn bigge.
I have not made this for several reasons..... I could get the Zoology
students to get me Cock Sparrow brains but I'm not that big of a
authenticity fanatic and I personally like sparrows. Also I just started
reading through the cook book and was looking for something else when I found the recipe. Hope you enjoy it.
Clare
From: DianaFiona at aol.com
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:38:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Good Housewifes Jewell
<<
Take two Quinces, and two or three Burre rootes, and a potaton, and pare
your Potaton, and scrape your rootes and put them into a quart of wine, and
>>
Hummm, anyone have a good ID for the"Burre" roots? Could this be
Burdock, I wonder? I actually have some plants of these in the garden,
although they are going to seed at the moment, so I doubt the roots are very
good. I was pleased to find that they are generally a fairly bland, pleasant
tasting item, with none of the bitterness in their aroma (*Or* in their
leaves! Blegh, those are nasty!). If they were more prolific they would be
very good to use instead of turnips, which many folks dislike, in period
soups, etc. But unfortunately the plants are huge, while the roots often are
relatively skinny, if very long, so the yeild-to-space ratio is too small to
be efficient in a small garden like mine. I'll probably only grow them in
small quanities for medicinal use after this.
Ldy Diana Fiona O'Shera
Vulpine Reach, Meridies
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 10:04:35 -0500
From: margali <margali at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: SC - It's still chicken? :-0
> What *is* a game hen?
it is a domestication of a small fowl from africa called a guinea fowl,
first domesticated by the portugese and spread around their colonies. in
real life they have soft grey plumage and resemble a giant button quail
with the most godawful screech of a cry that would bend metal. i have
also been debating keeping them to drive certain neighbors nuts at dawn,
the fowl being significantly louder than a rooster. they also eat small
insects, and would keep the tick population down, something the dogs and
sheep would like.
margali
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:51:55 EST
From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>
Subject: SC - chicken types-Period
Here are the chicken types which were grown in period and are still available.
Appenzell Pointed Hood Hen (15th Century c.e.)
Aseel (oldest breed of chicken in existence) Note: Not bred in the US.
Dorking (Ancient Roman)
Dutch Bantam (16th century c.e.)
Polish ( so old their history has been obscured)
Styrian (first mentioned in the 13th century c.e.)
Ras
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:57:54 EST
From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>
Subject: SC - chicken types-Breeds listed
Here is a list of chicken breeds alive today both period and non-period.
Chickens
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alphabetic Breed Listings
A - D
Ancona
Andalusian
Appenzell Bearded Hen
Appenzell Pointed Hood Hen
Araucana
Aseel
Australorp
Bandara
Baheij
Brahmas
Barnevelders
Buckeye
Buttercup
C - D
Campine
Catalana
Chantecler
Cochin
Cornish
Crevecoeur
Cubalaya
Delaware
Dominiques
Dorking
Dutch Bantam
E - J
Faverolles
Frieslands
Frizzle
Gallus Inauris
Gimmizah
Golden Montazah
Hamburgs
Holland
Houdan
Java
Jersey Giant
Jungle Fowl -Green/Gray
K - P
La Fleche
Lakenvelder
Lamona
Langshan
Leghorn
Malay
Matrouh
Minorca
Modern Game
New Hampshire Red
Old English Game
Orpington
Naked Neck (Turken)
Plymouth Rock
Polish
Q - Z
Red Cap
Rhode Island Red
Silkie Bantam
Silver Montazah
Styrian
Sultan
Sumatra
Sussex
Swiss Hen
White-Faced Black Spanish
Wyandottes
Ras
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 01:00:52 EST
From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>
Subject: SC - Cornish Game Hens-description
Here is a description of Cornish Game Hens. They are slaughtered very young
for the birds we buy as such in the supermarket if these are indeed the same
birds, which, IMHO, they probably are not. I am still looking for further
info.
Cornish
Varieties:
•Dark
•White •White Laced Red •Buff
Standard Weights: Cock-10-1 /2 pounds; hen-8 pounds; cockerel-8-1/2 pounds;
pullet-6-1/2 pounds.
Skin Color: Yellow.
Egg Shell Color: Brown.
Use: Developed as the ultimate meat bird, the Cornish has contributed its
genes to build the vast broiler industry of the world, Its muscle development
and arrangement give excellent carcass shape.
Origin: Cornish were developed in the shire (county) of Cornwall, England
where they were known as "Indian Games". They show the obvious influence of
Malay and other oriental blood. They were prized for their large proportion of
white meat and its fine texture.
Characteristics: The Cornish has a broad, well muscled body. Its legs are of
large diameter and widely spaced. The deep set eyes, projecting brows and
strong, slightly curved beak give the Cornish a rather cruel expression.
Cornish males are often pugnacious and the chicks tend to be more
cannibalistic than some breeds. Good Cornish are unique and impressive birds
to view. The feathers are short and held closely to the body, and may show
exposed areas of skin. Cornish need adequate protection during very cold
weather as their feathers offer less insulation than can be found on most
other chickens. Because of their short feathers and wide compact bodies,
Cornish are deceptively heavy. Due to their shape, good Cornish often
experience poor fertility and artificial mating is suggested. Cornish are
movers and need space to exercise and develop their muscles. The old males get
stiff in their legs if they do not receive sufficient exercise. The females
normally go broody but because of their very minimal feathers can cover
relatively fewer eggs. They are very protective mothers but are almost too
active to be good brood hens.
Ras
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:14:20 -0800
From: Ron and Laurene Wells <tinyzoo at vr-net.com>
Subject: SC - Chicken Catalogs
> Size and breed never seemed to have any influence on the meaness of the
>roosters, and the Bantams were as docile as any and kept specifically for the
>pretty tiny colored eggs, not as "game" or fighting birds.
>Perhaps somebody could track down one of those mail order farm bird catologues
>which would probably tell for sure what type of bird a cornish game hen is?
>- -brid
My family had chickens when I was in high school. Perhaps it is time
that has addled my brain, but I have fond memories of them. The Buff
Orpingtons and the Auracaunas were my favorite. Since graduating from high
school, I have never lived in a place where I could freely (or legally) keep
chickens in my back yard, but I do keep daydreaming of a time when I might
have my own place on my own land, and might have chickens again. So I order
Chicken Catalogs, and lust over the birds pictured in them. :)
If you would like to order catalogs of your own, here are two that have a
good selection and color pictures. I thought I had another one as well, but
can't find it at the moment.
Murray McMurray Hatchery
Webster City, Iowa 50595-0458
1-800-456-3280
Stromberg's Chicks & Gamebirds unlimited
Box 400
Pine River Minnesota 56474
1-800-720-1134
Both catalogs offer a variety of poultry referred to as "Cornish Game"
birds, the females of which are called "Cornish Game hens". Males are
cockerels. They are slightly longer legged, large breasted, quick footed,
and are offered in both standard and bantam sizes. Strombergs offers
several colors of this breed of chicken, but does not have all of them
pictured - I believe Strombergs offers more choices but they pack a lot into
their catalogs. Murray has pictures of ALL the birds they sell, and is a
very informative catalog. From reading these catalogs, I would surmise that
the "Cornish Game Hens" we buy in the store are of this odd variety of
chicken. I could of course be totally wrong. :)
- -Laurene
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 02:17:11 EST
From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>
Subject: SC - Chicken info site url
<< In an effort to improve my library, without restarting the recent "books"
thread, might I ask >>
Sorry to dissapoint you with no addition to your library...:-(
The chicken info came from the following URL:
http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/poultry/chickens/
More than anything you'd want to know about chickens, plus some you might want
to know like which breeds are best for what type of cooking, etc, Enjoy! :-)
Ras
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:56:03 -0800
From: Ron and Laurene Wells <tinyzoo at vr-net.com>
Subject: SC - For more information on Chickens and Poultry...
>Sorry to dissapoint you with no addition to your library...:-(
>The chicken info came from the following URL:
>
>http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/poultry/chickens/
>
>More than anything you'd want to know about chickens, plus some you might want
>to know like which breeds are best for what type of cooking, etc, Enjoy! :-)
>
>Ras
Out of curiosity, today I did a search on the web to see if I could fin
either of the catalogs I have on the web. Strombergs is not online yet, but
Murray Mcmurray Does have a web site. One with pictures and looks like all
the information they have in their catalogs as well! Unforunately, there
does NOT seem to be a photo of a Cornish Game bird, but they do sell just
the hens specifically for butchering at the 2-3 pound weight to produce
those Cornish Game Hens we see in the grocery store. Have a peek, and see
for yourself! Very nice web site.
http://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com/
For those who are interested in actually obtaining poultry for your own
backyard, I did find this web site that lists many mail-order resources as well.
http://www.cyborganic.net/People/feathersite/Poultry/BRKHatcheries.html
And thank you, kind Sir, for the link to the page with all the information
about poultry varieties! Looks very interesting, and I'm anxious to got
investigate the site further.
- -Laurene
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:43:13 -0500
From: "marilyn traber" <mtraber at email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: SC - going a-birding
There is an easier way to get ortolan for dinner, but it takes a bit of time
and effort to start with. In Williamsberg VA, they have a dovecote that is
big enough to be hollow inside with little doors closing the backs of the
nesting boxes. You sneak in at night and open up the back doors and catch
the little beggers that way.
margali
Date: 9 Mar 1998 13:43:52 -0800
From: "Marisa Herzog" <marisa_herzog at macmail.ucsc.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - going a-birding
<snip>
There is an easier way to get ortolan for dinner, but it takes a bit of time
<snip>
Or you could do it the way they do in old fairy tales, find a place where they
roost regularly, cover it with pitch when they are not there. They land, they
stick, you come along in your leasure and pick 'em...
- -brid (wondering if they aren't too small to be bothered with...)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 15:21:23 -0500
From: "marilyn traber" <mtraber at email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: SC - going a-birding
ahem. one eats ortolan whole, just gutted and skinned.
margali
[a bit grossed out about the crunchy little skulls and other bones, yech]
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:24:27 -0800
From: salbert at ptialaska.net (S.Albert)
Subject: SC - rasher/game birds -- recipe
Thanks for the comments on rashers of bacon and how many cornish game hens
substitute for pigeons/etc. As requested, this is the information I have
about the recipe: it's apparently from The British Museum Cookbook by
Michelle Berriedale-Johnson, published by British Museum Publications,
copyright 1987. My friend found it through a search for recipes, which led
to collections, which led to medieval (or maybe medieval-collections),
which led to what sounds like the web page of one Jennifer Newbury, where
the following was posted (if I'm a little vague, it's because my friend is
pretty new to web-browsing and not sure what she's looking at sometimes). I
have the email address of Ms. Newbury if anyone wants it -- I just don't
want to post it openly. As I stated earlier, the original recipe was not
posted, just the modern version.
- -------------------------------------
Small Bird and Bacon Stew with Walnuts or Hazelnuts
Serves 6
6 fatty rashers of bacon, chopped roughly
3 cloves garlic
4 pigeons or other small game birds (6 if very small)
225 g (8 oz) mushrooms, whatever variety, chopped roughly
75 g (3 oz) roughly chopped roasted hazelnuts or walnuts
300 ml (5 fl oz, 1-1/4 cups) real ale
150 ml (5 fl oz, 3/4 cup) water
2-3 bay leaves
a little salt and freshly ground pepper
6 coarse slices brown bread
Fry the bacon, with the garlic, till it is lightly browned in a
heavy-bottomed casserole. Add birds and brown on all sides. Add the
mushrooms and nuts, continue to cook for a couple of minutes, then add the
ale and water with the bay leaves.
Bring to the boil, cover and simmer very gently for 2-2.5 hours -- the
birds should be falling off the bone. Remove the birds from the juices,
cool juices completely and remove any excess fat. The birds can be served
whole or off the bone. If the latter, carve them while they are cold then
returned to the skimmed juices and reheat gently. Adjust the seasoning to
taste and serve either the whole birds or the slices/pieces on the bread
slices, with plenty of the juices and "bits." A good greeen salad to follow
is the best accompaniment.
- ---------------------------
I thought I'd try this for a local potluck because I needed something quick
and easy to fix Friday night as I'll be in the kitchen Saturday with a
cooking class where we'll be making Brie Tarts (from To the Kings Taste)
and Capon in Orange Sauce (from To the Queens Taste) and I didn't want to
mess with anything complicated.
I'm going to make some barley to serve with it, because it's hard to show
people to use the bread slices properly at a potluck. I'm substituting
cornish hens because that's what I can find locally. I'll use walnuts
because they're cheaper. And I'll be doubling the recipe and deboning the
birds to make it go farther at the meal. It reads like it ought to taste
good.
One other question: how is "real" ale different from ale you buy in a
liquor store. A local microbrewery here makes a dandy pale ale I thought
I'd use.
And in reply to one response to my initial question: obviously the bacon
isn't being used to wrap a dry game bird in order to add juiceyness (how do
you spell that word?), but seems to be there for flavor and browning fat.
Morgana
Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 19:12:58 -0400
From: "Alma Johnson" <chickengoddess at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: SC - chicken types-Period
>> Here are the chicken types which were grown in period and are still
>> available.
>>
>> Appenzell Pointed Hood Hen (15th Century c.e.)
>> Aseel (oldest breed of chicken in existence) Note: Not bred in the US.
>> Dorking (Ancient Roman)
>> Dutch Bantam (16th century c.e.)
>> Polish ( so old their history has been obscured)
>> Styrian (first mentioned in the 13th century c.e.)
Murray McMurray Hatchery carries the Polish and the Silver Grey Dorkings.
Call for a catalog.
1-800-456-3280. There are maximum limits on their rare breed chickens, even
though there are minimum required purchases. Weird. Best to go in with a
friend who wants some standard birds, unless you want 25 at a time.
FYI, take it from me, you will NEVER hear the end of it from your friends if
you keep Dorkings.
Rhiannon (this is why they call me the chicken goddess) Cathaoir-mor
(Madly repairing the coop after the last fox attack)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 13:52:25 -0400
From: "Marilyn Traber" <margali at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: SC - chicken types-Period
>Since you keep them, do you find them to be very different in taste,
>texture, size or anything from supermarket chickens? Your own fresh
>chicken is undoubtedly better, and the Dorkings are probably smaller than
>Tyson's, but would you say there's so much difference that we couldn't
>possibly reproduce medieval chicken dishes with what's currently
>available to most of us?
>
>Allison
The flavor and texture are very different from store bought birds. The meat
is solid, not flabby. The flavor is more like turkey or game bird as they
are also eating bugs and bits of vegetation rather than just feed mash.
Also, I never fed medicated mash which seemed to also make a taste
difference.
Margali
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 20:00:06 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Turkey - NW or OW?
This one is rife with confusion. The guinea fowl was eaten in ancient Rome,being imported from North Africa and was called Phrygian chicken andBohemian chicken among others. The guinea fowl disappears from European cuisine with the fall of Rome until the late 15th Century when first the Italians and then Portuguese start importing them from Africa. The Portuguese sold them to the French. The French referred to them as poulesde Guinee, poules de Turquie or poules d'Inde, as there appear to have been conflicting stories about where the birds came from. To make matters worse, the Spanish were introduced to the New World domesticated turkey about 1517 and were importing them to Spain by about 1524. When the Spanish started selling them about Europe, the French started referring to them as poules de Turquie (remember that all strange new things came from Turkey, as with gran turco (maize)). So, if the recipe calls for turkey, it might be either guinea fowl or turkey. And you can thank the French for the confusion. Because of their relations with Spain and their forays into the New World, an Elizabethan recipe for turkey is very probably for our turkey.
Bear
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:16:21 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: Turkey
At 10:36 AM -0400 9/19/98, Phil & Susan Troy wrote:
>Also, it's possible that the particular recipe you saw might have been for
>Guinea fowl. From looking at the recipe it could be hard or impossible to
>tell.
I discussed this question years ago with Marion of Edwinstowe, who had
looked into the matter. As best I recall, she said there was very solid
evidence for the consumption of turkeys in England in the 16th century. I
think it may have included a sculpture or two, which solves the
turkey/Guinea fowl problem. She thought they had gone into use quite
quickly.
If you want to check with her, I'm pretty sure she is online, but don't
have the address ready to hand. Her phone nbr is 617 BUTTERY.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:14:21 -0500
From: "Paul Shore" <shore at dcainc.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Is quail period?
From:LrdRas at aol.com
> Quail/Pheasant/Etc.- Yes and no. Some pheasants were introduced rather
> late from the Orient. I am not familiar with the European species of
> quail, if any.
From:
http://food.epicurious.com/run/fooddictionary/home
"The American quail is not related to the European quail, a migratory game
bird belonging to the partridge family (gray partridge and the red-legged
partridge). But when colonists discovered birds that resembled the
European version they called them by the same name."
Curye on Inglysh has multiple mentions of feasants and at least one mention
of Quale.
Paul Shore | Email: shore at dcainc.com
Sr. Research Engineer | Phone: (918) 225-0346 X1021
Doug Carson and Associates, Inc. | Fax: (918) 225-1113
1515 East Pine, Cushing OK 74023 | Web: http://www.dcainc.com
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 19:58:09 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Is quail period?
The Four Seasons of the House of Cerrut, translated by Judith Spencer,
copyright 1983 by Arnoldo Mondadori Editore S.p.A. from a 16th century text
shows the following on the page numbers noted:
Of the birds:
Quail 85/Pheasant22/Pigeons118/Partridges21/Peacocks119Birds, small, and
thrushes118/ducks and geese115/roosters115/turtledoves120
Quote:
"Quail is eaten in the autumn, but do not overindulge. It should be young,
plump, and well hung, pointed by hunting dogs or, better still, caught by
birds of prey." The illustration shows small birds with typical quail like
pear shaped bodies hunted by sniffing hound dogs.
From: David M. Razler <david.razler at worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Birdkeeping?
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 13:55:26 -0400
lucy700095 at aol.com (Lucy700095) wrote:
| Does anyone out there know of a source for information about Birdkeeping or
| birdcages, or know of anyone who may have done an A&S project about these
| subjects?
| Oh yes, I do mean parrot-type birds, and not softbills or birds of prey.
|
| Robyn
| &
| Peekaboo
| The CAG
Parrot keeping *seems* to have been a time-honored tradition, with the range
of birds available expanding radically towards the end of period.
While I do not *believe* there were, in period, any native Western European
parrots,(1) there were several that should have been available as African
exports - though the majority of the parrots kept today (outside of three
species of African greys and lovebirds) are either New World (Amazons, macaws
and conures) or Austrailian (budgies (the common "parakeets"), cockatoos and
cockatiels).
I do know that African Greys were represented accurately in the marginalia of
a late-14th/early-15th C. book of hours (the source of one of my AoA)
Probably the earliest birds kept indoors as ornaments and entertainment were
finches, other seed-eating songbirds <softbills> and mynas (members of the
crow family native to India, and the best 'talking' birds)
Aside from the finches and songbirds, I *suspect* that early birdeepers
clipped primary flight feathers, and used T-stands, though I have never seen
any documentation ougside of sole half-recalled Far Eastern art depecting
birds in cages.
Parrots were brought back by sailors both as pets/curios and for trade, more
and more as period ends and post-period.
Note that the concept of keeping a "pet" is a relatively recent one, and
probably post-period in most cases.
Dogs were work animals, and the loyal <hunting> dog, like the loyal horse,
occasionally works itself into period litierature <see Eco for a quick
tertiary source>
Cats were usually tolerated as usually better than the alternative (rodents
causing much food damage) but considered linked to the Christian Devil at
times, many sources (including many debatable sources) state. The link *does*
come up in the recorded charges against the Knights Templar.
Most kept birds (outside of the few kept for sport hunting) were kept as
either food, or outdoor ornaments/food (swans and peafowl fall into this
category).
The very wealthy might have exotic creatures, and we have countless chronic
quadrary sources on the exchange and keeping of same. But these could be
back-formed mythos based on modern custom.
david/Aleksandr
Af. gry. Prester John says "Here, kitty, kitty, kitty" to everyone
(1) To my knowledge, there is exactly one fieldguide/coffeetable book on
Psittacoids - I don't own it.
David M. Razler
david.razler at worldnet.att.net
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:34:24 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - A Winter food
Victoria Wilson wrote:
> I have a question I wish to put before you. I was told by someone that
> Pheasant is NOT a winter food, but a summer food.
>
> I, for one, have always considered it a fall and winter food.
> Especially since Pheasant season is currently going on here in Montana.
Platina, who discusses the seasonal aspects of several types of game,
doesn't mention a season for pheasant. The author of "A proper Newe
Booke of Cokerye" mentions seasons for several game animals too, and
says pheasant are good all year round, but that they are best taken with
a hawk. So far I haven't found any other references to season.
Adamantius
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 12:50:46 -0400
From: "Alderton, Philippa" <phlip at morganco.net>
Subject: Re: SC - A Winter food
Adamantius sez:
Overall, I'm assuming that the game seasons as established by state laws
are based, or were originally based, on some idea of proper landscape
management (is there such a thing as game husbandry?). It's pretty well
established, for example, that the deer season is where it is because of
food availability and the breeding cycle. <
Actually, the pheasant season is where it is because of the pheasant
breeding cycle. Like most animals, they give birth in the spring and use the
summer to raise their offspring. By the fall time, this year's birds are
harvestable, if not particularly large.
I think that this was recognized in the MA as well- if you notice, most of
their big hunts were held in the fall and early winter, along with most of
their other harvesting activities- this seems to be true of most agrarian
societies, although hunter/gatherer types tend to hunt year round.
Philippa Farrour
Caer Frig
Southeastern Ohio
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 10:10:24 -0400
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: Re: SC - A Winter food
>the reason I asked the question is a conflict between two persons....
>the one wants beef and feels that pheasant in Feb. is inappropriate.
>Lady Kinga
Hello! There are 10 period menus given in Harleian MS 279 & 2 in Harl. MS
4016. Of those that give dates, all list pheasant on the menu. The dates
are:
Sept. 16th, 1425;
Dec. 4, 1424;
Feb. 7, 1404 (date provided by Thomas Austin for the wedding banquet of
Henry IV & Joan of Navarre);
Oct., 1399;
Sept. 23, 1387.
This February feast lists other game birds such as Quail & Woodcock, small
birds and 'fieldfare'. It also lists "Signettys", or young swans.
Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu
renfrow at skylands.net
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 01:47:33 +0100
From: Thomas Gloning <Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de>
Subject: SC - Borde 1542 on feasant and partridge
I made an attempt to scan in page 269 of the 1870 Borde edition. It
worked not too bad and there seems to be not _too_ much labour of proof
reading. If I am not mistaken, there should be not copyright problems.
The ~ 80 pages could be done, say, in two or three days or nights ...
Here is a passage about feasants and partridges ( (AL) is the
alinea-sign ):
>>>
[269]
(...)
(AL) The .xv. Chapitre treateth of wylde
fowle, and tame fowle
[and] byrdes.
OF all wylde foule, the Feasaunt
is most beste, Althoughe that
a partreche of all fowles is
soonest dygested; wherfore it
is a restoratyue meate, and
dothe comforte the brayne
and the stomacke, & doth
augment carnall lust. A wood-cocke is a meate of
[270]
(...)
>>>
Thomas
(Magninus has also a passage on feasants with some medical advice how
feasants are to be prepared in spring and in winter; see Scully 1985,
191ff.; Thorndike 1934, 187.)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 15:08:44 -0500
From: "Hupman, Laurie" <LHupman at kenyon.com>
Subject: SC - Conversations about Eggs (long)
I followed the recent thread about egg size, and the differences between
eggs in period and what's available in the grocery store, and then posed a
question to an apprentice in Indiana who is raising period poultry. He
provided me with the following information:
> > I really can't give you specific documentation about egg sizes but,
> > I have been researching and raising antique and period breeds of
> > chickens for 7 years now. I raise Sussex (a 14thcen English breed)
> > which lays a white Medium egg, Light Brahmas (known in period a Polo di
> > Poli) from Venice, they lay a Medium to Large Brown egg, Black Jersey
> > Giants(11th cen. Channel Isle) which is a huge bird and lays a Large
> > white egg.
> > The best bet for an Italian egg is the Light Brahma, known from the
> > 12thcen. on, though it later was reintroduced by English Traders with
> > it's modern name. There is also known in Italy, The Roman (now known as
> > the Roman Dorking, (they lay a Medium egg) it was the first breed of
> > domestic fowl introduced to the British Isles by the Romans. Before this
> > the natives had no domestic
> > fowl!?! It would also be a good bet to look for Arcuna and Palermo
> > birds, but good luck. I've still not found a state side breeder!
> >
> > Generally the Large eggs we now would have been their Extra Jumbo!
> > Standard egg size in most antique breeds remains Medium to Small. I'm
> > not saying that we can't use modern eggs, but we do have to bear the
> > differences in mind.
> > Bear also in mind that the whites of the egg might also carry a flavor,
> > less than the yolk of course, from the diet of the hens. In late period
> > we were just re-introducing the planned diets of fowls for fattening,
> > but we were not yet planning for egg production and most hens foraged
> > for their feed or were fed a grain and refuse diet, fairly rich in
> > protein for strong egg production.
> >
> > If you need more info or discuss points let me know, I loave to talk
> > about poultry and my birds!!
and:
Yes, most of that line is holding true to what we can see in the records.
However, we have to note that there were even then exceptions. While we do
not see a recording of our Extra Large and Jumbo eggs, we can see our
standard Large egg as being indeed a LARGE egg. The controversy isn't so
much as the chickens are bigger or larger but that they have been bred to
have ever larger eggs until now in many cases they are out of proportion
with the size of the bird laying them!! BTW, we have shell fragments from
middens and entire eggs from Pompeii, so we do have evidence to bear up
various findings! I think it is fine to use modern eggs and even the extra
large sizes, just bear the extra liquid in mind, and the fact that the
battery eggs DON'T taste the same at all!! Sorry, personal preferance!!
and,
Waitaminnit! You mean that the size difference isn't as, well,
different, as the taste? So what do period eggs taste like? Do the
chickens taste different as well?
Rose :)
Ja Wohl,Madame the secret is the diet of the
birds and the amount of excersice they get!! like everything else what you
put in is what you get out!! Breeding gives you the egg and body size,
feeding gives you tha tasteand texture. Period and Free-range birds ate a
much more diverse and simplified diet. Those birds who are kept in cages are
fatter and fattier and have a much blander taste than those who eat what hey
choose and run around.Period eggs are richer in color and in taste, having a
slightly gamey taste, much more flesh-tasting, sort of hard to describe
though. If Modern birds are allowed a free-range lifestyle they will produce
a much more natural tasting egg, thoughthe size of said egg will still be a
good deal larger than in period.
So it seems to me that we'd be safe in using small to medium sized eggs to
approximate the appropriate level of liquid in each recipe, but in using
grocery store eggs, we're probably not coming too close to the right flavor.
However, if you wish, Brother Johann will sell both eggs and chickens to
interested parties, and is quite happy to talk "chicken."
Rose :)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 00:05:52 -0000
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is>
Subject: Re: SC - Indian Grain-found in the Medici Archives
Bear wrote
>One of the common names for Numida
>meleagris in the US is Hungarian guinea fowl, an odd name for a bird which
>originates in Africa.
And "Bohemian pheasant" is another one (but maybe that is because the guinea
fowl has been called "the bohemian of the barnyard").
>The guinea fowl (Numida meleagris) was also known as "turkey". It may be
>that relating an unknown commodity to the splendor and decadence of the
>Ottoman Empire was a marketing ploy. Again, it might just be confusion
>about the origin of the product.
"In Europe, this bird became known as turkey because it was imported to
Europe by the Portuguese through Turkey, the contry where many people
wrongly assumed it originated ...
For about fifty years, until the beginning of the seventeenth century, the
word turkey therefore referred to two different birds, the African Guinea
fowl and the American turkey. Eventually, however, someone noticed that the
two birds do not really look alike, and thus turkey ceased to be used for
the African bird, the one that originally held claim to the name." (Mark
Morton, Cupboard Love)
Certainly there was quite a lot of confusion in Europe about the origin of
the turkey - the French name is dinde, from coq d´Inde (cock of India;
"Indian fowl" is also an early English name for the bird), and the German
name is and the German name kalkun is thought to mean "hen from Calcutta".
>For a little more confusion, there are two turkeys in the New World.
>Meleagris gallopavo is the North American turkey beloved by Ben Franklin.
>Agriocharis ocellata is the turkey of Mexico and Central America which was
>the bird imported into Europe in the 16th Century. According to one of my
>sources, most of our domesticated turkeys are varieties of A. ocellata.
I recall having read that these American domesticated turkeys probably
descend from turkeys European settlers brought with them to New England in
the 16th and 17th centuries.
Nanna
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:34:06 -0600
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Indian Grain-found in the Medici Archives
Yet another account of the origin of "turkey" that I heard, I think,
from Marion of Edwinstowe (I don't remember where she said she read
it) was that the merchants who traded from the eastern end of the
Mediterranean to England were called "Turkey merchants" and that they
picked up turkeys in Iberia en route to England and sold them in
England, leading to the association between the bird and Turkey.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:56:38 +0100 (MET)
From: Par Leijonhufvud <parlei at algonet.se>
Subject: SC - egg sizes
Got a response from my archaeology professor on the issue. A quick look revealed no indications of egg sizes, but he did find a note that bones from
chickens from when they first entered Sweden (a couple of centuries BC)
indicated that they were slightly smaller than moderns dwarf (bantam?)
chickens.
/UlfR
- --
Par Leijonhufvud parlei at algonet.se
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:12:23 GMT
From: "Bonne of Traquair" <oftraquair at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: SC - egg sizes
>Do we have any evidence of chickens being fed grain, even in winter?
>**************************
>Brother Johann (the chicken guy in the Midrealm) told me not too long ago
>that he's experimenting with some period diets for his poultry. I don't
>know what his sources are, but it sounds like there's something out
>there...
I have seen recipes for mixtures to feed chickens, but was under the
impression that these were "last meals", or last week of meals meant to
fatten the bird and/or to clean out any off flavor that may get into the
meat from a foraging diet. Or, perhaps in hopes of fattening up that raggedy
old hen into something worth cooking.
Oh, sources. I've been reading Digby and Markham so I'm guessing that's the
place I read this. I'm at work without the books, so I can't look to be
sure.
Bonne
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:27:37 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: SC - References-Chicken feed
I have received the following references lending support to my position on
the feeding of chickens in period. Some are less than ideal but at least one
is very specific regarding not only the food being given but the age of the
birds being fed and what they were being fed. Special thanks to Thomas of
this list and Melanie Wilson of the SCA-arts list for 'refreshing' my memory
and providing the specifics. Thanks also to Elysant who proofread the text
for me.
1) Piers plowman writes of a capon cote, where the capons were fattened for the
table (I presume grain. More importantly this passage indicates that chickens
did receive supplemental feeding of some sort under certain circumstances
such as the raising of capons for the table).
2) 'According to Hartley many manuscripts show hens being fed by old ladies,
unfortunately she doesn't say on what'. (again I presume grain as does
Melanie who opined that if other than grain were meant it probably would have
been mentioned))
3) 'There is an illustration in the Lutrell Psalter which appears to be a
women feeding grain to fowl.'
4) 'Gleaning-is an old English tradition, whereby the church bell was rung
after harvest, whereby all villages (non farmers) could go & collect the
grain in the fields missed by the harvesting process. ...... in living memory
this practice saw poor families' poultry through the winter. How old this is I
don't know.'
5) 'One such picture is in the Vienna Tacuin Sanitatis (AKA 'Four seasons of
the House of Cerruti', mentioned a few digests ago) under the heading
"Galli" (cocks), where hens are also treated. The picture shows a woman
with a basket feeding the hens with something I could not identify. The
text is somewhat more explicit: "To prefer: young ones (i.e. hens) that
are being fed with good grain".'
The text here definitely states that not only was grain being fed to the
poultry but that this grain was 'GOOD' grain. Since the translation specifies
young 'hens' (which I assume is a feminine word form in the original
language), this shows us that not only capons were fattened on supplemental
feeding but also that immature poultry were also fed with good grain. It is
not to much of a step to conclude that poultry of every age received at least
some form of supplemental feeding and that the form of the supplement was
most likely grain.
Ras
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:37:02 -0500
From: "Hupman, Laurie" <LHupman at kenyon.com>
Subject: SC - Chicken Diets
I received the following from Brother Johann -- who should be joining this
list soon...
Rose :)
Johann replies: Good My Lady, Please forward this to the cooks list and
know that I will try to subscribe there myself one of these days!!
Johann/ Marcus Loidolt
> ********************
> > "Likewise, smaller hens who produce larger eggs take up less
> > coop space and eat less feed, resulting in more compact and more
> efficient egg production and more profit."
> when the chickens were
> generally left to eat what they would on a free-range basis. Do we have
> any evidence of chickens being fed grain, even in winter?
> > **************************
> > Brother Johann (the chicken guy in the Midrealm) told me not too long
ago that he's experimenting with some period diets for his poultry.
I don't know what his sources are, but it sounds like there's something
out there...
> > Rose :)
>
> If you can find out from him sometime what he considers period poultry
> diets to be and what evidence he has for this I'd be interested. I still
> think the idea of feeding chickens grain that you could eat is
> unlikely. If you don't want to eat it, you can often make beer from it.
> Barley for instance.
" And the mash, you feed to the birds!!! A number of Digby's reciepts
call for a grain mash.
> One of the reasons that the horse took a while to begin
> to be used in agriculture, even after an appropriate collar was invented
> was that it required a better food supply than the ox. Even
> though it was faster than the ox this was a problem. One of the things
> that sped its use was the introduction of the three-field rotation of
> crops that allowed a winter? crop of oats to be grown. Thus still giving
> you two crops for your own use and a third for the horses.
> Animals were often slaughtered in the fall rather than feed them through
> the winter. I just don't think there was a lot of surplus food
> available to use on chickens.
" True for your expensive four legged mammals, but poultry is VERY
economical to winter over and very quick to replace itself."
"It all comes down to WHEN and WHERE!! A thousand years and a continent
changes in many ways. There is room for both extreme wealth and
poverty."
> I'm wondering if Brother Johann's period diet might include a lot of
> bugs, that he has to make provision for, but that the period chicken
> keeper would let his chickens gather for themselves. The same would go
> for weeds and weed seeds. Chickens can and do eat a rather diverse
> diet. In some ways they are an excellant method to turn stuff you can't or
> won't eat into something you will eat.
"Very true and the majority of my birds do forage in just that manner. I
only give a special feed to those birds I want to specifically breed or
fatten. During the winter the breeders will continue to get select table
scraps as well as some oppourtunity to forage."
> I have no direct experience raising chickens though to base any of
> my comments on.
Johann replies:
My documentation for chicken feed is gathered from these principle
sources. As I have noted earlier this is usually given to theose special
birds who are good layers, breeding stock, or are reserved for special
occasions. The majority of the flock forages for weeds,seeds, and bugs,
they are also given what table scraps that might be found in period, ie,
no corn, potatoes or such.
1. Kenelm Digby's 'Reciepts of Cookery' the last chapters have several
procedures to fatten and promote egg production. These recipes are heavy
on white bread, beer and milk.
2. Pliny the Younger's 'Honest Indulgence' dictates several ideas about
what one should feed to certain hens to achieve the most desired
results, ie fattening and heavy egg production.
3. The Goodman of Paris also includes directions on how to increase
birds weight and flavor as well as the all important egg production.
'Give your best layers and those birds for our table the best of scraps
and plenty of fat and wheat.
3. Aepicius also gives 2 directions on fattening chickens for the
table. These include forcing with beer and grain and honey.
He says nothing about egg production.
Johann von Metten, poultrier
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 03:21:27 GMT
From: "Bonne of Traquair" <oftraquair at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: SC - References-Chicken feed
Stefan li Rous said:
>This is the strongest referance. Again, it would appear to apply only to
>those on the way to the dinner table. I think to jump from that to
>"poultry of every age" is a big step though. As you and others have
>pointed out "grain" can cover a number of different plant seeds. It
>would be nice to know which ones. While I was at first thinking "wheat"
>when grain was mentioned, it could be seeds less desired for human
>consumption and more bountiful such as perhaps barley? or oats? I do
>know that wheat does not grow everywhere in Europe well and in some
>areas was more precious than in others.
The evidence I supply, is to be found in Gervase Markham's "The English
Housewife" of 1615. OOP by the strictest standard. According to the edition
edited by Michael Best, Markham wrote six books on husbandry, including
"Cheape and Good Husbandry" and "The English Husbandman". Markham and Mary
had spent from 1601-1610 as husbandman and housewife.
- - - -
Chapter VIII
6 [for poultry] Now for all manner of poultry, as cocks, capons, chickens
of great size, turkeys, geese, ducks, swans and such like, there is no food
feedeth them better than oats, and if it be the young breed of any of those
kinds, even from the first hatching or disclosing, till they be able to
shift for themselves, there is no food better whatsoever than oatmeal grits,
(6) or fine oatmeal, either simple of itself, or else mixed with milk, drink
or else new made urine.
(6) Oats husked but not ground or rolled
- - - -
Yes, urine. I first transcribed wine, but upon proofreading, made the
correction.
Bonne
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:55:42 -0500
From: Kay Loidolt <mmkl at indy.net>
Subject: SC - small chickens
Johann, poultrier,
In previous posts there was a question as to the size of period
chickens compared to modern birds. I then stated that while most were
smaller there were larger breeds available. This is still true, though I
now have more details as to which breeds were smaller and where they
were!
It appears as though the dutch and northern breeds were small, but
prolific layers, while the Mediterranean breeds were larger, taller
birds, though their laying does not seem to have been markedly
different.
The Dorkings, the ancient Roman breed brought to Britain by the legions
retained its long body, but developed shorter legs when crossed with
later Saxon fowl.
These later mixed with the fowl of Norse settlers in Jorvik and the
North to produce the famed Scots Dumpy, or Bakkie. This bird has an
almost ridicules gait, having VERY short legs that do not extend
completely, so that it is always crouching!! The body is somewhat larger
than some of the Continental breeds, but not quite as large a the
Dorking. They are very hearty and are known to lay even in the snow!!
There is a really neat website for many breeds of chicken and domestic
fowl at www.thefeathersite.com
Many breeds have thier own club and website too!!
Johann
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:49:12 -0500
From: Kay Loidolt <mmkl at indy.net>
Subject: SC - scotsdumpy
http://members.aol.com/scotsdumpy/index.htm
check out this site!!
neat chickens and whata history!!
Marcus/Johann
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 07:27:16 -0500
From: Kay Loidolt <mmkl at indy.net>
Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #2153
> From: Morgana Abbey <morgana.abbey at juno.com>
> Subject: Re: SC - period egg sizes
>
> The best source for that info would probably be the Rare Farm Breeds
> Conservancy. I'm sure they have a web page.
>
> Or does anyone know someone who's in the conservancy?
>
> Morgana
Johann von Metten, medieval Poultrier, responds
I am a member of the American Livestock Breeds Conservancy
(albc~usa.org) for about 5 years now. There is also the New England
Heritage Breeds Conservancy(nehbc.org). While both of these groups
emphasis 17th-19th cen. American breeds, they have been most helpful in
my research regarding older breeds.
Johann von Metten
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 22:38:00 -0500
From: Kay Loidolt <mmkl at indy.net>
Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #2159
From: LrdRas at aol.com
> mmkl at indy.net writes:
> << The medieval poultrier would have a wide variety of egg sizes available and would even have kept different ages of birds separated in
order to make the gathering of size specific eggs easier.
> The larger eggs would go to either market or the manor house while the smaller eggs might be used by the poultier him/herself, except for
the Spring eggs which would be large and be set aside for hatching >>
>
> Documentation, please.
>
> Ras
Johann replies:
Ahhhh, there we do have a slight problem!! Documentation for where the
various sizes of eggs would go!!
I assumed the larger eggs would be reserved for hatching, because from
a husbandry point of view that would make the most logical sense.
Though, as has been pointed out our ancestors were no more 'common
sensical' in some things than we are today!!
We DO have docs. for the separation of birds according to age and the
separation of egg sizes for market. Die Fowlerenbuch, a 16th cen German
guide to poultry( the only one I've yet had any reference to, from
"Farms of Yesteryear" by L.F. Howars, University of Manchester Press)
says that pullets and hens should be kept in separate coops as 'this
will promote concord in the flock, for the older birds may eat the
smaller birds eggs (!)'
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:48:12 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - questions
CBlackwill at aol.com writes:
<< serving "thousands" of birds
at a banquet, unless there were "thousands" of attendees... >>
Considering that the lack of flocks consisting of thousands of birds is a
relatively modern phenomenon., I don't find it particularly strange that such
a number would be requires for a feast. Woodcocks, one of the larger small
birds, requires at least 6 birds per portion. Thrushes, starlings, wrens and
other small birds would require considerably larger numbers per portion.
Also I am aware of what the point was of mentioning the 3 oz. portions but my
point was that a 'feast' was served to literally hundreds of attendees. See
Chiquart for the large number of food items required for a feast. 10,000 eggs
comes to mind as a requirement so thousands of birds does not seem
unreasonable as a typical 'catch' for a typical royal progress feast.
Ras
Subject: [Stellararts] Re: [Fwd: Mediaeval hens]
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 16:04:39 -0000
From: "Marcus Loidolt" <mmkl at indy.net>
To: Stellararts at egroups.com
--- In Stellararts at egroups.com, "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant at i...>
wrote:
> Forwarded from soc.history.medieval in the hopes that Brother Johannes
> can help this nice lady.
>
> Effingham
> ========
> What kind of hens were around in C15th?
>
> Mary the Chandler
Johann the poultrier replies:
Well, I couldn't find her email addy, so I'm responding to the list,
Effingham, maybe you could forward her this info, as well as my own
email addy,mmkl at indy.net Or send her to medievalanimals at egroups.com
Now, 15th c. WHERE? That is always the all important question! What
was known in Italy was not in Ireland.
In Italy, I'd suggest either Leghorns, called in period Lombards or
Legannos (not the white strain,though). Brahmas, in period called
either PolodiPoli(birds of Polo) or, Venetians, (if she is of the
patrichtian nobility of that city, as the breed was quite rescricted
by sumpuary laws. Paduans, a predessesor of the Polish Crested breeds,
pretty funking looking with eleborate top-knots!!
In Germany, I'd look for Hamburgs,for the northern states and the
Netherlands. In the south and Switzerland I'd go for the either
Spitzhaubens,or the above Lombards from the Italian provinces. In the
Rhineland one could find all the above plus the Belgian/French
Campines, while in the east and Austrian the famous Styrian hens would
be favored along with the Lombards. It should be noted that there is
evidence pointing out that the Brahma(Venetian) may have found its way
from Persia via the Turks into this area as well, without the Venetian
patrichians knowing about it.
In Spain you'd find the famous Andalusian Blues and the White-faced
as well as the now extinct 'Gallo di Morro'. you can still find the
other two breeds, though they are now quite rare.
In England, you'd have the famous Dorking, in three colors,
Black-Breasted Red, Silver-Gray, and Cuckoo(a B&W barred pattern)
all of these are somewhat rare, with the BBRed being the rarest.
In the North of England, in York one would find the Redcaps and the
Moonies,(a type of Silver Hamburg) while in the south one could find
some of the French hens, (really Italians!) such as the Campines,
GoldenHamburgs and Lombards(Leghorns)
In 1680 the king of Poland, Kasimir X sent a brace of Polish Crested
fowl to Elizabeth as a present with his marriage proposal, like a fool
she turned down the one and gave the birds to Norfolk, whose family
has kept them as fighting cocks and a caged birds until the present,
making that flock one of the longest most complete bloodlines
anywhere!
In Scotland, the old breeds brought by the Norse, such as the Blummie
and Floer were still popular, and what had in the 11th cen. Become the
native chicken of Scotland, the Dumpy!
The Dumpy, also called Bakkies, Creepies and a whole host of rather
silly sounding Scots dialectial names, are a VERY old breed whose
orginal stock is thought to have come from Scandinavia, though noone
can say for sure. The breed carries a gene for a leg deformity which
prohibits the birds from standing fully upright as well as greatly
shortening their leg bones anyway!!
They are very hardy, surviving Highland winters all outdoors!! and
are rather steady layers. They are quite rare now and I have not been
able to find ANY outside of Scotland!
In Ireland, chickens were quite rare until the 14th cen. eggs and meat
being provided for by ducks and geese rather than chickens!
(Interesting Celtic history there for later exploration)
Though, by the 15th cen. you'd find some of the English breeds there,
such as the Dorking and Moonies and Redcaps.
I know I've probably swamped everyone with too much chicken talk by
now, so if you want to know more go to, Feathersite.com an on-line
encyclopedia of poultry!! Fantanstic, Wonderful site full of info!!
Also check in at the SCA A&S site, the Florilegium, it has a good
list of breed known and quoted in period as well!!
Johann von Metten,poultrier
in service to historic breeds
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 22:59:31 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Chicken names
Robin Carroll-Mann wrote:
> Is there a specific term for a young male chicken? The male equivalent
> of "pullet"?
Cockerel in English, I believe, for male chickens less than a year old.
In French (or so sez Larousse) the term "poularde" is sometimes applied
to male or female chickens of less than a certain age and weight (a year
and 1.8 kilos? I forget), but strictly speaking a poularde is female.
Adamantius
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 23:27:51 -0500
From: Kay Loidolt <mmkl at indy.net>
Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #2598/Chicken Names
Johann von Metten replies:
Sorry, but the poultrier(chicken breeder) and teacher just has to speak
up here in behalf of proper breeding terms. Pullet=Hen, Cockerel=Cock
the only difference is age. Rooster originally simply means a bird who
roosts rather than lays. Hence male birds of all ages might be
considered roosters.
The question was what the male equalivant of a 'pullet' might be. The
answer is a cockerel, that is a male bird less than a year old!! Older
than that the correct term is cock, unless castrated and then it is a
capon! An older hen who no longer lays is usually called Soup!! though
they might be classified as 'roosters' too!
Johann von Metten, poultrier
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 01:06:44 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Chicken names
harper at idt.net writes:
<< Is there a specific term for a young male chicken? The male equivalent
of "pullet"? >>
Yes.
cock*er*el (noun)
[Middle English cokerelle, from Middle French dialect kokerel, diminutive of
Old French coc]
First appeared 15th Century
: a young male of the domestic fowl (Gallus gallus)
Ras
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 18:48:18 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Polish
Kay Loidolt wrote:
> Johann von Metten writes:
> Here is another medieval chicken for you!! This one comes from SE
> Europe, with older origins even further East!!
> Pliny's 'Honest Indulgence' speaks of preparing a hen of Padua,or a
> Paduan Hen. It appears as though this is it!! Of course, he could be
> talking about a recipe, but then he says that it might be prepared
> several ways....?
>
> http://www.cyborganic.net/People/feathersite/Poultry/CGP/Polish/BRKPolish.html
In Platina's De Honesta Voluptate, Book V, chapter 10, he says:
"The hen is useful to people for the egg, the pullet, the capon, and the
rooster, whether it is large, like those from Padua, or of a species of
dwarfs." [Millham translation]
He then goes on to speak of various types, and of chickens in general. I
believe that's the only reference to hens from Padua, though.
Adamantius
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 17:03:07 -0500
From: Kay Loidolt <mmkl at indy.net>
Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #2616/ Period Eggs
Johann von Metten writes:
First,I remember trying to answer and address much of this question
before, and while I am not the all answer guy in regards to this
question (or anything else aside from my own opinion) I will try again.
EGGS COME FROM CHICKENS
When discussing eggs we must take the breed of chicken into
consideration first and then it's age and it's quality of feed!!!
I raise period breeds(5 kinds,including Jungle Fowl(the original genus
and species) of chickens and geese(1 breed so far, Old Embdens)
I feed them period grains and foods in the attempt and aim to produce
period eggs and flesh. I have tried very hard to research and use such
period sources as I can find and reproduce.
I have found that the strains of chickens which have survived to the
present day are limited, but seem to be reletively pure coming from
isolated communities where there was not a lot of 'improvement' in their
breeding.
The size of the eggs is directly linked to the size of the chicken that
laid it, so a small bird lays a small egg, a medium bird a medium egg
and a large bird a large egg.
Generally speaking from bone evidence from York and other buried cities,
such as Pompeii and others, bantam breeds which lay those small 'pee-wee
eggs, were not extensively developed until the late 1600's in the
lowlands. Looking at Dorking chicken bones from York and Pompeii, we see
a bird which is not at all distinguished from the rare bird known today.
So too the Scots Dumpy and the Persian Brahma as well as the Egyptian
Phayoumis(the smallest of the list) all are known birds from period, all
are sometimes rare, but exrent breeds today. All lay medium to large
eggs today and always have.
Granted, with the modern breeding of such birds as the Modern Leghorn
and RhodeIslandRed and their crosses, we can have much bigger eggs than
'normal' in period. That does not mean that they didn't have them, just
that they were not common.
In the past I have used the formula that as Jumbos would have been rare
I would make the Large, Jumbo, and the Mediums, Large and so forth.
I believe this is still the most realistic way to scale, but would still
acknowledge that Jumbos are possible from at least 4 breeds in period,
the Langshans and the Jersey Giants, as well as possibly Turkens and the
Cochin.
Again,when discussing eggs we must take the breed of chicken into
consideration first and then it's age and it's quality of feed.
Johann von Metten, medieval poultrier
Sternfeld
Marcus Loidolt
Indpls,IN
317-545-5704
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 19:51:03 -0400
From: margali <margali at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: emulsified sauces
> Since I now live in
> Balitmore city (ick) instead of the country, I no longer have the luxury of
> going to find winged supper in the back yard. Anyone know where I can
> locate such around my parts? I have seen some of these offered up as frozen
> solid objects, but it seems to destroy the delecate flavor.
> Olwen
Do you have a yard or balcony?
If you do, build a 'williamsburg dovecote' This is a birdhouse with attitude.
Imagine a central core large enough for someone to stand in[they usually were set on 4 legs so that the base of teh house part is at waist height] and the walls on all 4 sides are actually planks hinged along one side to make access doors int oall of the little nests. You raid the boxes at night so the birds are stunned by the light and you just grab the critters and snap their little necks.
margali
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:46:37 -0500
From: Kay Loidolt <mmkl at indy.net>
Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #2702/Ducks
Johann von Metten writes, medieval poultrier, writes:
Actually, if they have the Mallard coloration, but are really big, like
over 6lbs, chances are they are Rouens, a period breed, derived from the
Mallard, (like all domestic ducks!) but quite heavy! Drakes can weigh in
at 12lbs or better while hens are usually about 10!
They were first seen as early as the 13th cen. from?....Rouen, France!!
There are other old breeds of ducks, all derived from the Mallard, but
of varying colors from the wild coloration to the Red and Fawn and Buff
to the Black and Blues.
White is a very rare color for ducks and was first seen as a Light Buff,
which gradually was bred lighter. The White duck we see now is a rather
late comer, about the last 200 years or so, after Asian stock was
introduced from India and China.
It is interesting to note that duck eggs were preferred by many cultures
for plain eating, they are more flavorful. Chicken eggs are blander,
thus making better ingredients than duck eggs. Also ducks are seasonal
layers, who while there are breeds who do produce well, still lay only
during the spring and summer.
Ducks were probably the first fowl to be domesticated, then geese.
Lastly came the chicken!
Ducks have been domesticated since at least 8,000 years before Christ,
while chickens, only 5,000 years before the common era.
We see ducks being herded and kept in Egypt in the Old Kingdom, along
with geese. Chickens we do not see until the New Kingdom and later.
Johann
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:36:02 -0500
From: harper at idt.net
Subject: SC - Chicken Feed
Here are the highlights of what Herrera has to say about feeding
hens. I've put an ellipsis (...) wherever I omitted text.
Work on Agriculture
Gabriel Alonso de Herrera, 1513
Chapter XIX
Of the food that hens must have, in order to make them good egg-layers
Whatever food is given to the hens, you must always keep in mind the
advice that you feed them frequently and each time a little rather than the
contrary, because very often if you give it to them in that way they are
eager and eat everything and waste nothing; and often if you give them
a lot to eat and they are very hungry they fill their crops and often
cannot digest it well and die of it, especially the chicks, if you donít run
to them with some remedy; and even though the hens are of such a
nature that they will eat it all, not everything is entirely beneficial for
them, for with one food they will fatten a great deal, with another they
will lay many eggs, and with others they will cease to lay; and if they are
used to eating grape husks or grapes, little by little they will stop laying
and will lay smaller eggs until they come to the point of laying none and
cease completely; and because of this you should take counsel that
those who indulge a great deal in wine engender fewer children and
those are more diminished and smaller than [the children] of those who
drink wine temperately, or only water, and I treat of this at greater length
in the second book on the properties of wine; and because the grape
husks take away the egg-laying, they help to fatten the birds, because all
that force and substance that they had been putting into the eggs is
converted into fat, but for fattening the grape husks must be just a few
within the wheat or other foods, that is, the grains; and because for the
most part hens stop laying in the winter and especially in the coldest and
most severe weather, take counsel that they should be in a dry, hot
place, and being there they will benefit by what they eat, and the winter
foods should be hot. Everyone says that if you give them boiled barley
to eat which is a little bit hot, they will give many eggs, and larger ones,
but this food and sustenance should be in the morning, and little of it,
and it creates a lot of bile in the hens and makes them ill, but if it is given
to them in this manner, it will not do them any harm, and with it they will
lay many eggs, and even if it is very cold they will not stop laying, or at
least more than in the other manner; cook a little barley in very clean
water, first having well cleaned it of all dust and dirt, and pour out that
water in which they were cooked and have another pan or cauldron with
good clean water and cast in a little lavender to cook with it; make bran,
and within the barley heated in this way, and give it to them in the
morning because it warms them, and the lavender or ìalhucemaî (which
are the same, although they are different names) have this property, that
they make the hens lay a lot, but to warm them you have to give it to
them in the winter, and when it is cold in the daytime, give them wheat, or
millet, panic-grass. In the summer, it is good for them to have uncooked
barley, between grass and leaves, if they donít have somewhere to graze,
but in that way the hens stop laying in the great heat of summer as in the
cold of winter, although not as much, and because of that it is good to
give them green flowers (?? rosas verdes) in the daytime, and where
there are a lot of melons, splitting them and setting them out, they will eat
very well and those are very good, but not cucumbers, which are very
cold and dangerous, and if the hens have space and a field where they
can graze, feed them twice a day, once in the morning, again two hours
before they go to sleep, and if they donít have space or grass to graze,
let it be three times: in the morning, at midday, and in the afternoon, and
where there are many of them, and a large field, so that they go far,
gather them near with a little bell, and in the winter cast some feed among
the excrement so that they scratch at it and wallow in searching for it,
and in the summer, amongst dust, for these things will make them bright
and healthy and clean of lice...
I could say much more about the feeding of hens, but I will briefly say
this before I proceed to speak of how to fatten them: they should not eat
eggshells, because they will go on to eating eggs.
In Rome, in the winter they give them dry bran to eat in some baskets,
and on top they put some large stones so that they donít scratch at
them, and this is good sustenance for the winter.
Chapter XXIII
On fattening hens
...but to fatten the birds, three things are first required: a place that is hot, narrow, and dark; because space, coolness, and brightness are contrary
things to fattening, and it is not necessary to speak of the causes,
because it suffices for our work to know the consequences in order to
fatten them; there are many ways.
One is to give them balls of dough of barley flour, and some flax seed
mixed with it. Another is to give them cooked rye, as I said above, from
the husks that they make so that the hens donít lay; rye has the same,
and because of this it fattens them, and because in the winter they donít
lay eggs, therefore they fatten more; but not all hens are good for
fattening; Pliny says that for fattening, the ones with thick flesh on the
neck are best, and he also says that if you feed them with sops in milk ñ
and this can be done when there are abundant flocks or for great lords ñ
that this makes them very tender and very tasty.
Columela says to fatten them a lot and very quickly, is done in this way:
let the place be hot and dark, as I have said, and take as many wicker
baskets as you have birds you want to fatten, and in each place a hen or
capon, and let it have two holes, one for the head and another so that it
can cast out excrement...
Give them balls of flour or rye to eat, and the first days give them little by
little, and don't give them one to eat until they have digested the other...
give them a little to drink or soak the balls in a little water when you give
them... if you give them sops in wine they will fatten well and become
very tender, especially if you give them balls kneaded with it, and if
being so confined they donít want to eat well, loosen them a little and
change their food, giving them some wheat until they are appeased and
return to eating the first food...
The Moors, in Granada, fatten them with dough of panic-grass, so than
in fifteen days they become so fat that they almost have no lean [flesh],
in this manner: they have some large cages where they have thirty or
forty birds in each one, and of each five or six, one is empty, and they
take out each bird by itself and stuff them with balls of millet flour until
they fill up the crop, and a little water afterwards, and one by one they do
this and pass them into the empty cage...
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 14:37:31 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - I am not sure where else to try so...
> When were Flamingo's introduced to Europe?
>
> I have seen evidence that they were found in Rome...
>
> but I was told that they aren't period as they were originally located
> in South America. Now I know that the explorers discovered
> the Americas in period but do we not acknowedge that?
>
> Nicholas of Falcon Cree.
The lesser flamingo (Phoenicopterus minor) has a range from Africa to India
and north into the Mediterranean. These would be the flamingos that were
eaten by the Romans.
Phoenicopterus ruber, P. chiliensis, P. andinus and P. jamesi are all New
World species.
Bear
Subject: [Stellararts] Fwd: Documentation!
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 19:34:31 -0000
From: mjloidolt at yahoo.com
To: medievalanimals at egroups.com, stellararts at egroups.com
--- In RarePoultryBreeders at egroups.com, mjloidolt at y... wrote:
Well, guys, it appears as though I have hit the jackpot!!
I found a copy of Pliny the Elders 'Historia Naturalis' and there I
found detailed descriptions for many different chickens, including
Brahmas, Cochins, and Silkies, (if Pliny knew of them they had to
exist at least as far West as Asia Minor! He even puts them in Rome
under Vespasian!)
He describes a type of chicken called a Lombard, which sure sounds
like a Leghorn to me! "These birds are slight of carriage, though of
a fierce fighting nature, their hens lay well, though are poor
mothers"! In various colours and patterns, each having its own value
and use! He even says that they come in patterns, like an Excheuquer?!
They were sacred to Mars while the Dorking was sacred to Jove,and
were most worthy of sacrifice to these gods, though not for others!?
The birds of Germania he calls 'wild, unkept, and of a good fighting
nature, their hens will fiercely keep their chicks and are much
prized for it!
I have requested Columella Marcus' work 'De re rustica' and Varro's
of the same name!
I hope to find out more and more of these ancient breeds!
I am trying to find Ulisse Aldrovandi's Naturalis Historia, as well,
and while I find him quoted, it would be nice to find the work itself!
Marcus Loidolt
on the track of the Medieval and Ancient Chicken
--- End forwarded message ---
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:07:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Marcus Loidolt <mjloidolt at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] GM foods
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
[about a claim that chickens would not eat genetically modified food - Stefan]
Now, as to stock telling the difference... maybe its
just my girls, but those hens will eat ANYTHING that
isn't nailed down, and yes, if we can peck it apart it
wasn't nailed down....!!:)
Kitchen refuse of all kinds, (save curiously anything
citrus!? won't touch that!!) is all eaten by the yard
birds, plus their own hunting, yes, HUNTING!! brings
in bugs, worm, snakes, mice, neighbors bees(straight
out of the hive!!(now has an enclosed fence around and
on top of said hives!) and the occaisonal road kill or
whatever they find if I don't stop them in time!!
Where people like PETA got the idea that chickens were
naturally vegetarian is beyond me, obviously none of
them have been natural chickens!!
Abot Johann von Metten, OL
medieval poultrier
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:18:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Lora Weems.Leofwynn atte Gos" <muchosnombresfarm at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Peacocks
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
On or about the 15th, there was a thread about serving and eating
Peacocks at a feast. I have raised peacocks for several years, and my
husband has raised them for even longer. I want to put out to the list
the following information, from a husbandry standpoint:
1. Peachicks are subject to fall over dead, for no apparant reason, at
any time prior to 3 years old; (at which point it takes an atom bomb,
shotgun, or hatchet to kill them; I had one of my 8 year old cocks get
hit by a semi- it did $900 damage to the truck, broke the bird's wing).
We refuse to sell them before 3 years, as we have a guarantee that the
birds will live at least a month after purchase, and we have had to buy
back too many peachicks and poults;
(I think that they are equal in this respect to sheep and turkeys)
2. The birds don't become sexually mature till 3 years old, and the
cocks don't get really pretty for a couple more years;
3. The part that most people think of a the peacock's 'tail' isn't; it
is called the 'train' and grows from the back, about 3/4 of the wail
from the shoulders to the rump.
4. They moult after breeding season. It is very unusual to see a
peacock in full train from about mid-July to December or so (at least
here in Texas, the dates may be different in other areas)
5. The hatching eggs sold on WWW.EGGBID.COM this year for roughly $10
per egg; the babies (less than a year old) run $15 -$20; and poults (a
year to adult) $20 and up. (and remember about the infant mortality).
This is for India Blues, the kind that is most common and what most
folks think of when they think of a peacock. They come in a multitude
of species (For example the Java Green, starting at $200 per pair if
you are lucky) and colors. (a neat place to look for a lot of these is
www.feathersite.com) . So if it is, for example, white, expect to pay
$75 for a cock and more for a hen, at least from me.
What this boils down to, is if you want a really fancy presentation,
you will be paying out a lot of money for an old bird. And as we all
know, old probably = tough and stringy. That is, if you can get
someone to skin it as if you were going to have it stuffed by a
taxidermist. (Tough to do. Have you ever tried to skin out a bird's
head? Peacocks have a really pretty crest.)
I think that what would be easiest is to talk to a taxidermist or
someone else who may have a stuffed peacock, show it around, then take
it to the kitchen and serve something out something that will taste
better; chicken, turkey, or guinea (which is period, and available, tho
pricy at gourmet groceries). Who will know?
I bet that's what was done in period...
Leofwynn (no longer lurking)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 05:51:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Lora Weems.Leofwynn atte Gos" <muchosnombresfarm at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Swan
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Now, to give more info re: swans:
(relayed from my husband the bird keeper at the zoo:)
Most swan cygnets (babies) are gray until adult. That is why, if you
ever see an instruction as to how to tell the age of a swan and to get
a tasty bird, you are instructed to get a bird that is not white. (We
are talking about Mutes, Trumpeters, and Black-necks; Black swans are a
different story).
Well, accidental selection happened. Every once in a while you will
have a baby swan who is white from birth. They are not hunted and
otherwise taken from the gene pool. After lo these many years, you
have a new species of bird (the Polish) that is not gray at all.
Swan is quite good, if eaten in the first year.
Another bird that I don't know if it is period or not, but is very
tasty and in season soon, is Sandhill Crane. Looks like beef; tasts
like finest venison, and you cook it the same way.
Anyone who is within driving distance of Muleshoe Texas, you need to
take a look at the flocks; hundreds of thousands of birds. I can only
imagine what all those birds do to farmers' fields...
Leofwynn
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:30:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Lora Weems.Leofwynn atte Gos" <muchosnombresfarm at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Polish swans
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Per Brad Hazelton, the bird curator at the FT Worth Zoo, Polish are
simply a color phaze of the mutes. The way to tell the difference is,
Polish have either completely orange feet and legs, or at least orange
on them.
The regular mute swans (the real name for them, by the way, is Royal
Mute, because Elizabeth I decreed that the only swans that would be
permitted on the Thames were the ones that were dark as cygnets; maybe
so she could have swan whenever she wanted?)(FOOD REFERENCE!) have
solid black legs and feet.
Brad doesn't know offhand when they began to be considered different
birds, but it is at least pre-Elizabethan.
Brad says that many aviculturists who are stupid enough (oops! outside
voice) who raise Mute Swans probably have both Royals and Polish, you
just have to get close enough to see their feet.
Since Polish are just a different color from Mutes, they are probably
just as aggressive.
Check Eggbid or Birdauction to see if someone is selling eggs or birds;
or check to see if your local rescue group has any that need a home.
I agree with you. Swans are about as agressive as Cape Barron Geese or
Ostriches.
Leofwynn
Saith Master Johann:
Where would I find any? and how mean are they in regards to the Mutes I used to have? I HATE swans, alive that is, Mutes, I mean!! People
who talk about geese being mean, haven't a clue until
you run across some old cob on a private lake!! Esp.
with a nesting pen!! BTW, Cob and Pen are old terms
for male/female swans.
Abot Johann
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:12:59 -0400
From: "Sharon Gordon" <gordonse at one.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Is it an Egg or a Goose
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
In Iasmin's wonderful description of the siege cookery dishes, I noticed
that they broke the goose eggs to check for embryo development.
If you want to know if an egg is still an egg without breaking the shell,
you can hold it up to a light, called candling it. Here's a website that
shows some of the different things you might see.
http://www.homestead.com/shilala/candling.html
Sharon
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:51:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Marcus Loidolt <mjloidolt at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Candling Eggs
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Pliny the Elder and Columella both speak of candling
eggs to determine whether there was life inside.
As to the middle ages, I haven't gotten much in docs
for the later periods.
I use a candle on my setting eggs on the thirteenth
day and the eighteenth days on chicken eggs. I include
the twenty-fifth day for geese.
Johann
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 05:56:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Marcus Loidolt <mjloidolt at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 18, Issue 5/Turkey
versus Swan
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Okay, now as a poultry Laurel you might figure I'd
take a different angle on this!
As fierce a fighter as the NA Turkey might be, they'd
be no contest for a Swan, particularly a big cob (male)
in breeding season! Those monsters are BIG and
STRONG!
with a wing span of 9 feet and a neck 5 feet long
there isn't much a swan couldn't do to a turkey, or
any other opponent for that matter!
Many years ago there was an article in National
Geographic Magazine about the Royal Swanherd of
England, all the Swans on the Thames are property of
the Crown and must be tagged and counted each year.
This has been going on since the reign of Bloody Bess
and her equally bloody father, Hank.
According to the article and to the current RSH, there
have been 15 men to have been killed by the swans
defending their young and mates! The cob can beat the
opponent with the force of a sledgehammer breaking
bones and causing concusions! Attacking the boat and
dragging the swanherd over board to drown him is the
primary mode of attack. I have seen a fight between a
White Emben Gander and a Turkey and it wasn't pretty!
Yes, the Gander won by plucking feathers and penning
said Tom under the gas barbeque!!
Abot Johann von Metten OL
medieval poultry
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 04:00:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Marcus Loidolt <mjloidolt at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 18, Issue 8
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org, medievalanimals at yahoogroups.com
Yeah, Swans are very big indeed, the Black Swan which
you describe is from Australia and is one of the more
docile social members of that genus! The Mute Swan,
which we all know from the fairy tales, is not so
nice, they are very territorial and can be quite
vicious! They were introduced to this country in the
late 1800s after the first settlers had killed off the
native species such as the Whooper and Trumpeter Swan,
just now making a comeback in the Midwest and North.
Mute Swan tastes much like goose, though a bit on the
gamey side. Eat as many as you can, exotic invasives
that they are, they depopulate a body of water of any
other waterfowl! They will kill ducks and ducklings in
short order, which is one reason you find them on
artificial ponds in apartments. Course some of that is
being eliminated once you have a Swan/human
interaction gone amiss!!
Abot Johann
Medieval Poultry,
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 21:16:05 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Guinea Fowl
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Guinea fowl show up as "turkey" before the second quarter of the 16th
Century when they were replaced by the New World turkey. According to some
sources, they were reintroduced into Europe during the Portuguese
exploration of Africa. The Romans referred to the Guinea fowl as the
Numidian Hen.
They were introduced into the U.S. as Hungarian Guinea fowl. You
occasionally find them running wild in the prairie states.
Bear
> I'm wondering whether Guinea Fowl has been documented in period. According to
> the Larousse Gastronomique, the bird is from Africa and was known to the
> Romans. I've also seen the term in Weaver's 'Food and Drink in Medieval Poland'
> but I mistrust this source. It may have been an error in translation, and
> since
> I can't remember where in his text I saw this I can't verify his source
> (if any, and if available).
>
> Petru
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:36:48 +0000
From: "Olwen the Odd" <olwentheodd at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Guinea Fowl
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Petru, there are lots of paintings done in period that clearly show Guinea
Fowl hanging from kitchen rafters and market stalls. It is a large bird,
almost turkey size with charcoal/black feathers with tiny white spots all
over them. They roost in trees and make an ungodly sound that will shut up
any junkyard dog. Oddly, they have a distant affection for their owners, or
care-takers, if you will. I had a brood of them once. Very interesting.
Oh. Did I also mention yummy?
Cariad a heddwch (love and peace)
THLady Olwen the Odd
Apprentice to Master Chirhart Blackstar
House Blackstar
Bright Hills Cooks Guild
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 18:39:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Pat <mordonna22 at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Guinea Fowl
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
A Guinea Cock's alarm call is on a par with a peacock's, only louder.
Olwen the Odd <olwentheodd at hotmail.com> wrote:
They roost in trees and make an ungodly sound that will shut up
any junkyard dog. Cariad a heddwch (love and peace)
Pat Griffin
Lady Anne du Bosc
known as Mordonna the Cook
Shire of Thorngill, Meridies
Mundanely, Millbrook, AL
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 07:19:59 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Chickens in Hochee-
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Jun 1, 2005, at 12:57 AM, Stefan li Rous wrote:
> Adamantius replied to 'Lainie with:
>
>> On May 31, 2005, at 4:28 PM, Laura C. Minnick wrote:
>>
>>> If I'd left the chicken in the broth that long, it would fall apart
>>> (as it was, I had a hard time getting it out of the pot), which
>>> would rather defeat the purpose of stuffing it, I'd think. So I'm
>>> back to wondering how the garlic and the chicken are done through
>>> at the same time.
>>
>> I assume that either the garlic cloves are smaller in period, or the
>> chickens tougher, or both. While I'm not suggesting this recipe was
>> done with a boiling fowl, you might get better results with either a
>> free-range or even a Kosher roasting chicken, either of which might
>> need longer cooking.
>
> I wondered about whether this meant the period chickens were
> tougher than the modern ones, too. However, wouldn't there also be
> a number of other recipes in which this problem of the chickens
> being tougher appears?
>
> If most of the chickens were tough, then I would think that boiled
> chicken recipes might outnumber the baked or roasted recipes. But
> then humoral theory might impact this as well.
It might, indeed. In addition, I'm not sure that recipes for boiled
chicken (or capon, or hen, or whatever, and each probably needs
somewhat different treatment, but lumping them together
notwithstanding) do _not_ outnumber those for roasted or baked birds
(which last seem to be in the form of pie recipes, and probably
increase later in period).
But my point was that we're not necessarily talking about really
tough boiling fowl or baking hens, or stewing chickens. Rather, I
just meant that the default medieval chicken was probably not the two-
month-old, battery-raised, chock-full-o'-hormones special we tend to
get in supermarkets, and it might take a little longer to cook
because it's a little tougher, less watery, more flavorful, maybe
darker meat, etc. Just as a rough guess, the typical modern chicken
wisdom says you bring it to a boil and it's done in about 25 minutes
using one of those little 3.5 lb all-purpose fryer/broiler chickens.
I don't know the preferred slaughter age for a medieval chicken, but
in general most of our commercial meat animals seem to grow more
speedily and reach slaughter age faster than they did in period. A
chicken that takes 4-6 months (random guess here) of scratching in a
yard is almost certainly going to be tougher than one whose life
cycle is accomplished in eight weeks with minimal exercise.
> I think cutting up the garlic smaller is what I would try. I might
> have tried sauteing the garlic in oil or butter before using it,
> except the recipe doesn't mention that. Nor does it call for
> pickled garlic which would seem also to soften it. Hmmm. Is there
> any period mention of pickling garlic or otherwise preserving it?
> Or was it just hung up in a dry place? Which from personal
> experience does not give an unlimited storage time. :-)
Maybe. My inclination is that the garlic and the grapes might be
supposed to be roughly the same size, and a little longer cooking,
such as might have been necessary anyway in period, might get that
garlic softer.
Adamantius
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 11:53:55 -0400
From: rbbtslyr <rbbtslyr at comporium.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Chickens in Hochee-
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Actually find a 2 or 3 year old rooster and you will have close to a
period bird. Spare Roosters and cockerls are what were generally
cooked until a hen quit laying for good. A hen can earn her keep up to
3 or 4 years before she lays fewer eggs than what is needed to cover
her feed. The eggs tend to be fewer but larger. The same with domestic
ducks. Often a cockerl or rooster is slaughtered for older dished fixed
traditionally at 6 months to 2 years. Connective tissue equals flavor
in sauced most of the older dishes would of used these birds. A
Rooster would go to the pot when a better one was born, cockerls as
they will fight for hens and are only needed at 10 or 15 hens to 1
rooster for maxium fertil egg production, and about 25 to 1 still gives
a reasonable rate. Depending on where your dish is from you would want
a Heavy Breed, or a Light Breed bird for you dish The Med had Light
Breeds (mostly white egg layers) Northern Europe Dark eggs and there
are a couple of breeds that go almost back to period but I wouldn't worry about finding a rare bird to cook but a general or double duty breed of one of those
types would be a good choice.
I have RIR and Orps for eggs and meat, older cockerls at about 5 to 6
months [for] my wonderful pies, stews and dumplings.
Kirk KA4PXK
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:01:38 -0400
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Chickens in Hochee-
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Actually find a 2 or 3 year old rooster and you will have close to a
> period bird. Spare Roosters and cockerls are what were generally
> cooked until a hen quit laying for good. A hen can earn her keep up to
> 3 or 4 years before she lays fewer eggs than what is needed to cover
> her feed.
Well, it's interesting. Many recipes (such as "Hen in Broth") specify
the gender of the chicken to be cooked, even when you aren't counting
capons (neutered cockerells).
--
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:36:50 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Chickens in Hochee-
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Jun 1, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Huette von Ahrens wrote:
>> So while the standard having-reproduced
>> country bird might be more leathery than its table-bred town
>> counterpart, the premium young birds for upper-class tables might
>> easily have been somewhat tougher than our grain-fed chooks. Which is
>> why I thought maybe Kosher or free-range birds might be worth looking
>> at as being perhaps closer to the chickens the original recipe
>> intends.
>>
>> Adamantius
>
> But what about capons? There are a few recipes that call for
> capons, which are castrated
> male chickens. Capons apparently are much more tender and fat than
> their fertile brothers.
> And what about pullets, which also are called for in recipes, which
> are young chickens,
> usually females, which are less than one year old? I am told that
> they are very tender.
> And everyone knows that writers always crave that very special
> recipe, called the Pullet
> Surprise. :-)
True, both capons and pullets can be very tender. But this is sort of
the opposite version of an "all-other-things-being-equal" situation,
in my view. Or maybe not the opposite, but that exactly. What you're
describing are tender birds, but in period, still probably what we'd
regard as free-range and not pumped full of hormones to make a two-
month-old bird have as much meat as an adult. Doing it the old-
fashioned way, it takes more feed and several months of exercise to
produce a bird as big as a capon, but there's still probably more
connective tissue in the meat as a result. The good news is that a
capon has marbled fat, somewhat like a good steak, and doesn't easily
dry out when cooked for a longish time.
Adamantius
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 08:32:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Marcus Loidolt <mjloidolt at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 25, Issue 8/ Chicken
terms...Rooster...
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Greetings all, From Meister Abt Johann von Metten,
Chicken Laurel.
I have been very busy this Spring so I haven’t been
following this fascinating thread as I should have,
but thanks to Lady Joanna, I've read up and let her
know some of my opinions regarding the type/age/gender
of most medieval chickens per my research over the
past dozen years.
The term 'Rooster' in period was not reserved for that
of the adult male chicken, indeed it was not so used
until the late 19th century.
Rather the term 'Rooster' or 'Reuster' a bird which
roosts, ie is an adult non breeding member of the
flock, either an EXCESS cock or a hen which is no
longer laying.
The proper term for an adult male chicken, still used
in the poultry industry and in show rings around the
world and country is 'cock', 'rooster' is used when
specifing a non breeding bird.
On a second article, Capons which have been known
since Roman times have often been either greatly
rescricted or so frowned upon as to be illegal to try
to make or raise. In Carolingian times the mere idea
of emasculating any beast was so repulsive that it was
punishable by imprisonment, and fines. In Roman times
the slaves used to castrate bull calves and colts were
forbidden to enter the temple of any male god. Even in
early Anglo/Saxon and Norman England this idea was
regarded as strange and bizarre. Only in the various
Roman/Italian and Merovingian early French courts was
the idea of Capon and Gelding, neutering, kept alive.
Even then the fashion came and went in differing time
periods, but always regarded as a sign of decadence
and luxury.
Unlike mammals which have the sex organs on the
outside, chickens have theirs on the inside and so an
operation is needed to remove the testes by way of a
cut between the fifth and sixth rib.
Today there is a greater knowledge of infection and
surgery but then Caponizing was a very expensive
operation because for every 10 birds undergoing said
operation, there was a 10 percent survival rate!
There is now as chemical castration process which is
sometimes done but even then the process is expensive.
Johann
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 01:48:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A bird bird bird- bird is the word!
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
--- "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org> wrote:
> Are grouse native to Europe? Might you find one in, say Poitou, in say
> 1154? What birds might be hunted there?
>
> 'Lainie
Many grouse species are native to Europe, but not Poitou. The closest areas that have some species of grouse are Aquitaine, which has a sub-species of Wood Grouse (Tetrao Urogallus Aquitanicus) which can also be found in the Pyrenees and the Cevennes. The Tetrao Urogallus Major is found in the French Alps. The Ptarmigan (Lagopus muta or mutus) can be found in the Pyrenees and in the Alps. The Hazel Grouse (Bonasa bonasia) can be found in Provence and the French Alps.
The other countries that have species of Grouse are England and Scotland, Germany, Belgium, all the Scandinavian countries, most of the Central and Eastern European countries, and Russia.
As for other game birds, off the top of my head: partridge, pheasant, goose, duck. Quail was considered unwholesome until recently. Apparently quail eat poisonous plants, like Hellebore.
Huette
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:15:56 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A bird bird bird- bird is the word!
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Are grouse native to Europe? Might you find one in, say Poitou, in say
> 1154? What birds might be hunted there?
>
> 'Lainie
European Black Grouse (Tetrao tetrix) is spread all across Europe into the
Caspian region with the exception of Spain. Red grouse (Lagopus lagopus),
ptarmigan (Lagopus mutus) and capercaillie (Tetrao urogallus) are found in
England and other parts of Europe.
I have identified (with some possibility of error) some wild birds that
could probably have been purchased at market in late 16th Century Rome,
courtesy of Carravagio's "Still Life with Birds". They are:
barn owl (Tylo alba)
short-eared owl (Asio flammeus)
pheasant (Phasianus colchicus)
mallard (Anas platyrhynchos)
curlew (Numenius acquata)
kestrel (Falco tinnuculus)
song thrush (Turdus philomelos)
black bird (Turdus merula)
figpeckers (Sylvia hortensis)
great spotted woodpecker (Dendrocopus major)
skylark (Alruda arvensis)
lapwing (Vanellus vanellus)
goldfinch (Carduelis carduelis)
European robin (Erithacus rubecula)
blue tit (Parus caeruleus)
bullfinch (Pyrrula pyrrula)
While there is no evidence one way or the other, some of these birds were
definitely eaten in period and I suspect that all of them used as models
were purchased from the market where they were being sold as fresh meat.
Bear
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:24:15 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A bird bird bird- bird is the word!
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
According to Platina, "The food most pleasing to quail is the seed of
poisonous plants. For this reason, in certain periods, foreign tables
banished it, but not our cuisine, for in autumn qualea (for this is the way
common people designate it) is in demand. When it returns in the spring, it
is considered tasteless and of bad nutriment. I have eaten those caught on
the shore at Anzio with my friend Julius, and nothing is more
tasteless."
So apparently it was eaten, dependent upon time and place, but that
Other birds were considered preferable.
Bear
> As for other game birds, off the top of my head: partridge, pheasant,
> goose, duck. Quail was
> considered unwholesome until recently. Apparently quail eat poisonous
> plants, like Hellebore.
>
> Huette
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 07:55:08 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Turkeys ARE Period!
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
During the medieval period a number of great birds were eaten.
I don't personally think that one ought to list Bustard or Crane or Swan
on a menu and then serve turkey or chicken. One ought to list what
the actual meat, fish or fowl will be. Don't list pike or porpoise,
when it was always going to be farmed salmon. Wild boar is not the same
as modern pork. If need be, say you are roasting
a Great Bird and under ingredients list that you are serving a turkey.
We demand that cooks list their ingredients so that those with allergies
or dietary concerns may determine
what is in a meal. Likewise, we ought to be willing to admit the bird is
chicken or turkey
and not the exotic unobtainable swan or bustard. Likewise, don't
promise duck or quail and again serve chicken.
Sources for those wanting to read more on the topic:
Witteveen, Joop. ?On Swans, Cranes, and Herons,? 1986-87. Parts 1-3 in
*/PPC/*, 24, 25, 26.
Witteveen, Joop.?The Great Birds, Part 4: Peacocks in History,? 1989,
*/PPC/* 32.
Witteveen, Joop. ?The Great Birds, Part 5: The Preparation of the
Peacock for the Table,? 1990, */PPC/* 36.
Eiche, Sabine. /Presenting the Turkey. The Fabulous Story of a
Flamboyant and Flavourful Bird./ Florence, Italy: Centro Di, 2004.
Distributed in the USA by the Antique Collectors' Club Ltd. ISBN No:
8870384144.
Smith, Andrew F. /The Turkey/. Chicago and Urbana: The University of
Illinois Press, 2006. ISBN: 0252031636.
Johnnae
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 10:15:27 -0400
From: "Saint Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sugar Waffles and fertilized chicken eggs
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
On 3/24/07, Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com> wrote:
> I'm also not sure how to take this description of straining out the
> chicken embryos. Basically yuck, I think. And wasteful. Does using
> fertilized chicken eggs affect the consistency or the taste of the
> white/yolk that remains?
>
> I was also, at first, wondering why they were using fertilized
> chicken eggs at all. Today you avoid that by simply not having
> roosters around. Perhaps this is evidence that the hens were not
> penned but were allowed to run around free, with the roosters, and
> finding what they could to eat.
>
> Stefan
> --------
Stefan-
Until modern times, chickens were essentially free range. Roosters and
elderly hens were generally eaten as chicken- the eggs were used as
eggs. However, since often eggs got laid wherever the hen was when she
had the urge, it wasn't always possible to determine how old they
were, and whether or not they'd been set on.
My eggs are fertile too, but it's very unlikely you'll ever have to
strain the embryos out of them, simply because the eggs get collected
every day, unless I'm letting them be set (and I mark any eggs for
that purpose). And, while I let my girls free range, weather
permitting, they have nesting boxes where they lay most of their eggs.
Got 9 yesterday ;-)
If you look at an egg, the yolk is essentially food for the developing
chicks, and the white is essentially shock absorption. The reason that
babies can be shipped all over the US right after birth, is that as
long as you keep them reasonably warm (and requiring certain numbers
of chicks/ducklings/goslings/poults to be shipped at one time helps
this) they don't need to eat for a couple of days, because they're
still reabsorbing the yolks into their bodies- in essence, feeding
themselves.
One thing the hens will do is lay the eggs in a safe place, and leave
them alone until they have a full clutch. Then they come back and set
them, and all of them start developing at once, so they all hatch
about the same time. My hens will continue to set until about 48 hours
after the first egg hatches- after that, they give it up as a bad job.
This has implications today, for my chickens. One thing you do is try
to save the largest eggs because they're likely to be the most healthy
(understanding breed differences- last summer I let the girls set the
banty eggs). If you save those eggs, and keep them above freezing, and
below setting temp, you can pick and choose which eggs you want to
save. Johann told me that you can actually keep them in the fridge for
a few days. Had a dozen I was going to put out- 6 to the Tag Team
banties, 3 to Princess Layer, and 3 to the black hen, but then worked
out a deal with a neighbor, where we'll swap eggs, to increase both
our flocks, and give each of us a wider gene pool.
But, all my girls lay fertile eggs, and no, I don't strain embryos
out of them.
--
Saint Phlip
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 09:53:06 -0400
From: Jennifer Dobyns <jendobyns at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] something to ponder (old chicken breeds)
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
This has been interesting, hopefully I can add something useful to
the conversation as my first post, a link for the American Rare
Breeds Conservancy. They have a section on poultry that could be
informative:
And as for period chicken size, my understanding is that they should
be quite small. Even by the 18th Century, chickens were still much
smaller than they are today (my 18C foodie friends refer to the big
ones at the supermarket as "franken chickens"). Somewhat bigger than
a cornish game hen, but much smaller that what Mr. Purdue produces.
Perhaps it's time to start investigating period paintings for evidence?
Genevieve D'Aubigne
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 10:50:05 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Something to Ponder-OT, OP
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
There were also chickens that were used to pay rents. In Scotland these
were known as kain hens. Those tended to be rather small, having been ill
fed because the rent was paid in numbers of hens, not in the quality of
them.
Kane means a rent paid in kind.
Johnnae
Saint Phlip wrote:
<<< Size of poultry in period is really hard to determine. The Jungle Fowl
tend to be only a couple of pounds. But in period, I suspect they
caponized the roosterlings, and didn't kill the hens until they were
too old to lay. In modern times, most of our commercial chicken comes
from young birds who have been bred to get big, fast. >>>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:47:05 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] seagulls
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Stefan li Rous asked
> Were seagulls eaten in period? I assume they were, but I imagine they
> taste like fish considering their environment. But apparently weren't
> considered fish under the medieval fish day restrictions.
> But then I've not eaten Pelican, either.
C, Anne Wilson in Food & Drink in Britain mentions that they ate various
gulls in pre-historic England. They also ate the eggs of course. This practice of eating gulls continued until roughly the 18th century. By that time tastes had changed and gulls, cranes, and herons were found to be too fishy.
Places long associated with eating gulls and other seabirds were those
communities on the coast and those that lived in the islands off
Scotland of course. St. Kilda gets mentioned.
Mason & Brown in Traditional Foods of Britain note that black-headed gulls' eggs
are still gathered. It requires a special license and the season runs for 4 weeks in late March.
Johnnae
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 09:56:19 -0800
From: Dragon <dragon at crimson-dragon.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] seagulls
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Stefan li Rous did speak thusly:
> Were seagulls eaten in period? I assume they were, but I imagine they
> taste like fish considering their environment. But apparently weren't
> considered fish under the medieval fish day restrictions.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------
I honestly do not know but as I understand it, they taste nasty. A
former boss and career mentor of mine was in Holland during World War
2 and he and his family had to resort to eating things that were not
commonly eaten, one of those things was seagull. He said that no sane
person who wasn't starving would even consider it.
Dragon
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 00:20:57 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Storing eggs through Lent, WAS Re: Hi again
everyone!!!
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Mistress Jadwiga commented:
<<< The big trouble with eggs in Lent is that the hens have already stopped
laying, and the number of eggs they were laying in the winter was very
diminished anyway, so you've probably used up most or all of your stored
eggs. >>>
I thought that hens mostly stopped laying eggs back in late fall or early
winter. And would have started laying again during Lent. So when did the
hens start laying again?
And I am specifically thinking about within period, not today. With the
years of genetic manipulation and constant, provided grain supplies
instead of scrounging for bugs and such, I doubt there is much
resemblance in the rate of today's egg laying to medieval times. However,
I seem to remember that even today, egg laying does drop off during the
winter. The amount and size of eggs today also does still vary depending
upon the age of the hen.
Stefan
=============
Here's a start, Stefan.
"There seem to be naturally two periods of the year in which fowls
lay,--early in the spring, and in the summer; and this fact would seem to
indicate that, if left to themselves, like wild birds, they would bring
forth two broods in a year. The laying of hens continues, with few
interruptions, till the end of summer, when the natural process of moulting
causes them to sease. This process, which is annual, commences about
August, and continues through the three following months. It is the
constitutional effect which attends the beginning, continuance, and
consequences of this period, which prevents them from laying. This period
is a very critical one, in the case of all feathered animals. Until it is
very close, when the entire coat of new feathers replaces the old ones, the
wasting of the nutritive juices, which are yielded by the blood for the
express purpose of promoting growth, is a great drain on the system. It is
easily understood, therefore, why the constitutional forces, which would
otherwise assist in forming the egg, are rendered inoperative. The approach
of cold weather, also, at the close of the moulting period, contributes to
produce the same effects. As the season of moulting is every year later, it
follows that the older a hen is, the later in the spring she will begin to
lay. As pullets, on the contrary, do not moult in the first year, they
commence laying sooner than the older hens; and it is possible, by judicious
and careful management, so to arrange, in a collection of poultry tolerably
numerous, as to have eggs throughout the year." John C. Bennett, The
Poultry Book, 1851.
"While few hens are capable of hatching more than 15 eggs, and are incapable
usually of sitting more than twice a year, frequent instances have occurred
of hens laying three hundred eggs annually, while two hundred is the average
number. Some hens are accustomed to lay at longer intervals than others.
The habit of one variety is to lay once in three days only; others lay every
other day, and some produce an egg daily. A hen exhibited at the American
Institute, in 1843, was reported to lay two eggs per diem, and Aristotle
mentions a breed which laid as often as three times a day." John C.
Bennett, The Poultry Book, 1851.
Bear
To: Gleann Abhann (mail list) <gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Chickens
Posted by: "Melissa Erlund" melissaerlund at yahoo.com melissaerlund
Date: Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:28 am ((PST))
I have some Buff Orpingtons and just love their personalities! Some are extremely tame. I can walk right up to them and pet them and pick them up (they are all free range). They are good layers also.
I have Production Reds and Barred Rocks as well. The Reds are the best layers and also pretty tame. I think lots of handling as chicks makes a big difference.
I have heritage breed turkeys as well. Two Bourbon Reds and a Blue Slate. We are hoping they will breed this spring. : )
Melisant of Exmoor
To: Gleann Abhann (mail list) <gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Gleann Abhann] Poultry
Posted by: "sharikolar" sharikolar at yahoo.com sharikolar
Date: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:15 pm ((PST))
I have raised Buff Orpintons for over 2 years, they have exceptionally sweet personalities. This is the first time I have kept on extra roosters. They do not fight one another as other breeds do. My Orpingtons lay all winter long and even produce double yolk eggs. THe hens are broody (sit on and hatch eggs) so I can adjust the size of the flock readily. Another benefit seems to be that hawks don't see them as easily as light colored breeds, so I don't loose them to this peril. Ana Krejcova
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 19:34:39 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Game for Your Feast
You're looking at the present range, not what their range was pre-1600. The
great bustard's European range extended from England across Southern Europe
and into Central and Northern Europe. They are extinct in England, Sweden,
Switzerland and Poland. There is still a breeding population in Russia and
Hungary. It was more common than you assume.
Almost all other large birds were taken by hunting, while turkeys, like
geese, chickens and guinea fowl could be farm raised. Besides tasting
better than other large birds, turkeys cost less. For Catherine de Medici's
feast of 1549, turkey hens cost 20 sols, turkey cocks cost 30 sols, bustards
cost 70 sols, and swans cost 100 sols. The sol or sou is 1/20 of a livre.
Bear
<<< I wasn't sure if they
were extinct or not, but this article says they aren't extinct, but
endangered, like so many other creatures. It also shows another reason for
the turkey to have quickly replaced them. The bustard's area covers only a
small area of Europe, mostly the Iberian peninsula, so even assuming a
larger area in medieval times, it probably wasn't that common. So
domesticated turkeys would have easily become more common.
It also sounds like a domesticated turkey would be much easier to raise
than swans or geese or other large birds.
Stefan >>>
From: "aviceofyork" <aviceofyork at yahoo.com>
Date: March 1, 2010 10:55:19 AM CST
To: Stefan li Rous <stefanlirous at austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Gleann Abhann] Poultry
My Lord,
I was one of the folk who advised milady to search a couple other sources on poultry. I love your Florigium and it is a wonderful source for all things SCA.
Could you please add this link: http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/poultry/index.htm
for poultry breeds? It provides a great deal of breed development information.
You can also look up other livestock breeds and their origins at this link:
http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/
THL Avice of York, CSL
--- In gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com, Stefan li Rous <stefanlirous at ...> wrote:
Liz said:
<<< In the research I've been doing, a lot of information has changed
in the past 10 years. Stefan's list is a great source for finding
information and sources... I located an online source for Pliny's
descriptions of all kinds of fowl from people listing sources.
However, when taking a general statement from someone on an elist,
it's wise to double check the info. Just as I've discovered when
someone very knowledgeable with poultry stated on a list back in 2001
that Buff Orpingtons were period, we know this is not the case. >>>
Yes, I'll be one of the first to detail some of the problems with
depending upon the Florilegium as your prime resource. Come to either
of my classes on the Florilegium at this coming Gulf Wars on Wednesday
or Friday. :-)
Stefan
From: Gleann Abhann (mail list) <gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: PC chickens?
Posted by: "Barbara Easley" barbara.easley at fedex.com kane1lissa
Date: Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:52 am ((PST))
Medieval history lesson: geese mate for life, and can live 20 years. That's why getting a goose at your wedding was such an awesome gift. They provided eggs, meat, and security on practically nothing but bugs and grass. When they bite, they grab a hunk, then twist those long necks like a screwdriver... and they beat you like a dog with wings that are stronger than your arms are. It puts a hole in you that you won't forget!
I kept mine with the guinea hens. NOTHING could even tip-toe by without the alarm. Guineas are funny; they cry "pied-rike! pied-rike!" as they walk, but they scream "DIE! DIE! DIE!" when they are alarmed. <G> Not exactly what you want to hear when you are trying to sneak in somewhere!
Ilissa
missing the geese, the guineas and the chickens
To: gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com
From: ladyanne at cox.net
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 09:32:55 -0500
Subject: RE: [Gleann Abhann] Re: PC chickens? (and gooses)
I have worked with goose eggs in the past and they are 2 to 3 times as thick shelled as chicken eggs.
Anne
To: gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: PC chickens? (and gooses)
Posted by: "Katherin Aulds" kbaulds at msn.com aulds_k
Date: Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:41 pm ((PST))
Yes you can raise geese in this area. In one of my other lives I bought gooslings and when they began to lay I collected the eggs. Important to know... collect the eggs at night and as you prepare to reach under the goose gently place your thumb and first finger,( forms a V) directly under the chin. No need to hold any pressure.
The best advice as to saftey is to get a breed known as "African" geese. These are grey and very friendly and will come when called especially if you have stale bread or other treats. OK with children. Oh yes they will bite but nothing like the white geese.
With geese eggs do remember to mist the eggs in your incubator and turn the eggs twice a day if you do not have an automatic turner. Write the day with a PENCIL that they were place in the incubator so you can continue adding eggs and know when they will hatch. If they do not hatch after they have piped call me and I will give a lesson on "midwifing" the eggs. It can be done and I have done it many times for myself as well as others. Good humidity is very important.
Katharine le Spinnere
To: gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: PC chickens? (and gooses)
Posted by: "Barbara Easley" barbara.easley at fedex.com kane1lissa
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:29 am ((PST))
Goose eggs are a little thicker but not excessively. The reason people don't raise them for egg production is that they lay seasonally... in the spring, while chickens lay pretty much year 'round (breed-dependant).
It's coming spring, the wild geese are starting to scout out potential nest sites, so now would be a good time to start looking for goose eggs. We go to either country flea markets, the local co-op farm store, or just order from a hatchery like Cardinal. I'd get baby geese instead of eggs, and I'd find a female goose. Best baby-sitter you can get!!
Just remember that baby geese can't float unless their mama oils them. Newly hatched goslings will drown. If you have no mama goose, you can let them splash in little puddles, but until those feathers come out, no deep water.
Ilissa
----- Original Message -----
From: Stefan li Rous <stefanlirous at austin.rr.com>
Ilissa said:
<<< We ate a few goose eggs, but for the most part, we hatched them. >>>
Are the goose eggs thicker than chicken eggs? I know they are
larger, but I don't think I've seen any in person. I've never seen
them available in the store. Is the only way to get goose eggs to
raise them yourself or know someone raising them? Is this
protectiveness of the geese the reason they aren't raised
commercially? Or is it just that they take more food, and costs, per
egg than for chickens?
<the end>