bread-for-fsts-msg

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bread-for-fsts-msg – 1/7/08

Baking and buying bread for SCA feasts.

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NOTICE -

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This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

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Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous

Stefan at florilegium.org

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Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 08:55:59 -0700

From: "Kathleen A Roberts" <karobert at unm.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] prep and staging fresh bread at feasts

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 09:54:43 -0500

"Lonnie D. Harvel" <ldh at ece.gatech.edu> wrote:

> Anyone up to giving a blow-by-blow?

i can't give a blow by blow, but i have a hint or two...

first, don't let them fill up on bread at the feast. ;)

send it out with a course, not as a pacifier.

get volunteers. i have two ladies, each doing 15 loaves,

one doing white and one doing dark. i am doing 15 loaves

of oatmeal/rosemary (my special recipe...people like it

here). a friend at work bakes decorative breads with her

mother. she's in as well. we have 50 tables or so. i

will have to fill in with some store bought but....

personally, i use my breadmaker, set it on dough, and go

about my business. then i form the dough, let it rise and

bake. if i don't use the breadmaker, my bread comes out

like cannonballs. when i do, it works well.

cailte

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kathleen Roberts

University of New Mexico

Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 11:14:43 -0500 (GMT-05:00)

From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] prep and staging fresh bread at feasts

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I must confess that I bake in advance, and freeze the breads,

double-wrapped in plastic wrap and aluminum foil. I take them out the

night before and let them thaw in their wrappings. I bake in multiple

batches, primarily on weekends. They're not warm from the oven, but

still fresh and tasty.

I know that some folks do bake fresh bread on site. I've never been

in a kitchen with enough oven space to accommodate bread baking *and*

feast foods such as roasts.

IKA note: in the East Kingdom, most indoor (non-camping) sites are

rented for one day only. Baking on-site the night before is not an

option.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 11:15:42 -0500

From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Bread thoughts

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

For those that want to drool over what bread ought to

be take a look at the list of six things mentioned here

http://www.zingermans.com/Category.pasp?Category=bread

(and yes people do budget to buy this for their feasts locally.)

We are lucky in that we have a number of artisan bakers that bake real bread locally. Having baked whole wheat loaves for 225 in the past, I can report that it can be done. But it takes the right recipe, experience and a dedicated oven that works right. You need all the supplies in bulk and ready to go. Equipment helps. Having the large mixing bowls and the measuring cups at hand speeds things along. Not having to wash up between batches helps. Then you just devote a day to baking. Don't plan to get anything else done. Also plan to have some way to store and keep the bread when baked.

The question for that remains unanswered for those wanting true authenticity would be just how fresh was bread at the medieval court feast? Those cooking in the Jacobean style of 1604 at Hampton Court in April made a big point in saying that the bread was baked and then allowed to dry out prior to being served. So how much fresh bread was consumed?

The new edition of McGee On Food and Cooking has a number of things

to say on the subject of dough and bread and sourdough, but I'll leave

you all to read those sections yourselves. It would make a nice holiday

gift for most readers of this list.

Johnnae

Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 10:52:50 -0600

From: "Joanne Clyde" <jmknoppe at hotmail.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: store bought Artisan Breads was: Feast Budget

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

I don't know how plausible this would be for a feast. However, when I'm

making a "fancy" dinner and don't have time to bake bread, I buy a loaf of

"bread" from the local grocery store. Then, at the last 10 minutes of

dinner prep before eating, I toss the bread into the oven at 350 (degrees F)

It comes out all crusty, warm and yummy. Perhaps that could be done for

smaller feasts.

Geertruyt

Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 12:52:53 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fair feast budget

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> What are your standard brands or suppliers when purchasing to make

> breads?

I usually purchase all purpose flour from the local grocery, bulk baker's

yeast (the last time I used Fleischmann's), salt (whatever's available), and

whole wheat, rye, barley and other specialty flours either bulk from the

health food store or 5 lb bags of Hodgson Mills, which is the easiest to

come by locally. Most off the shelf ingredients are good enough to do the

job, but I admit I like to have used them prior to trusting them for a

feast. For spices, fruits and other things added to the bread, I tend to be

more quality concious.

> What types of bread do you make for feasts?

> (probably want the short list on that question!)

> Simon Hondy

One pound loaves of manchet and rye of various types are what I do most

commonly as they are documentable. I have also prepared barley bread, an Italian almond bread, rosemary bread, Finnish cardomom bread, some odd malt

loaves, panettone, stollen, oatmeal raisin, honey wheat and so on. The

precise choices depend on the cook (I sometimes act as baker for other

people's feasts), the theme of the feast, and the authenticity desired.

Bear

Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 15:31:51 -0500

From: Micaylah <dy018 at freenet.carleton.ca>

Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Baking Bread for Feasts (was Fair feast

budget)

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> I think an awful lot depends upon the size of the feast, and the

> determination of your bakers. For a large feast, it might well

> not be worth the trouble. For a small feast, say 50 people or

> under, its doable, and according to our bakers, enjoyable.

I find it enjoyable to bake bread from scratch but when it comes to

big-small feasts, food groups, etc. I rely on my bread machine to help.

(Yes, I just heard the collective gasp of the bread purists - lol)

I get 2 one pound loaves with each batch I make. While I don't "bake" the

bread in the machine (I use the dough setting), I do let it do the hard

work. I take it out tho and complete the bread by shaping and baking. Then

I freeze them in vacuum sealed bags.

We don't seem to be a huge bread eating Kingdom so its not looked down on

if its commercial. I suppose there's enough to fill up on with everything

else. I usually figure 1 one pound loaf per 8 folks. I do make extra though

as there are always exceptions to the rules and people do sometimes ask for

another loaf. I do notice though that when the bread is not commercial it

almost seems to be appreciated more by the diners. However, with food

groups, I tend to overdo it with the bread. You never know in that small

group who's going to be finicky, or is a bread and peanut butter camper, or

a bigger eater than you thought possible.

Would I make bread for 50 from scratch? If I had a precook/party and did

them ahead of time, then yes.

Micaylah

Grand Poobah of the supporters of par...errr...pre-cooks :)

Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 15:44:20 -0500

From: Micaylah <dy018 at freenet.carleton.ca>

Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Cheap supermarket artisanal breads

To: Cooks wthin the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> hmm.. do your stores sell day-old bread at a markdown? The places where

> I shop that do their own aking do sell the 'day-old' stuff marked down,

> and maybe that's the difference. But I don't know; we've bought breads

> from Food4Less and from Valley Farm Markets, but not from places like

> Shoprite (because around here they are very expensive) orGiant. It may

> be the difference between a large chain and a small chain; I don't

> know.

There are a few grocery stores here that have a "bakery" department

that's...passable. I don't buy bread but I have tasted some of them. I

usually buy the large ay old pumpernickel loaves, cut it lengthwise and

freeze for trenchers.

Micaylah

Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 15:50:59 -0500

From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] heap supermarket artisanal breads

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

>> hmm.. do your stores sell day-old bread at a markdown? The places where

>> I shop that do their own baking do sell the 'day-old' stuff marked down,

> There are a few grocery stores here that have a "bakery" department

> that's...passable. I don't buy bread but I have tasted some of them. I

> usually buy the large day old pumpernickel loaves, cut it lengthwise and

> freeze for trenchers.

Oops-- I forgot to explain: places that don't sell day-old bread marked

down, in my experience, are not baking on a daily basis for daily

purchases, so their breads will have more preservative agents, etc. In

my opinion, places that mark-down day old bread have better bread. (I

also watch for manager's markdowns in produce sections-- if the manager

has the authority to reduce for quick sale, the produce type and

selection is often much better.)

-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net

Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 15:59:51 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] prep and staging fresh bread at feasts

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

If these are commercial ovens, they should be able to handle 16 one pound

loaves each (if you have two racks each). Baking time is 45 minutes, so 32

loaves baked per hour. That makes 3 hours of actual baking, although you

can open one of the ovens for other things if you bake 80 loaves rather than

96. If you are using commercial ovens hopefully you have commercial baking

sheets available (at least 8), other wise you need to scramble to find

enough baking sheets ( I personally own six that will fit a standard

household oven). A large household oven can handle up to 8 loaves at a

time.

About 2 hours second rise time with overlap between the batches. Overlap of

1 hour into baking.

Two hours to knead and shape. Overlap of 30 minutes into the second rise

and 1-2 hour into the first rise.

Four hour first rise overlapping dough manufacture by 1-2 hours. Dough

manufacture 2 hours mechanized, 4 hours manual. It takes a 13qt container

to hold dough for 8 loaves while rising.

About 10 hours of work to produce 96 basic loaves. Since I usually have

access to the kitchens we use at noon on Friday, that's when I start baking.

With a Hobart, I can cut the prep time and with a convection oven, I can

better than halve the baking time. It takes about 20 hours to bake 96

loaves at home. I usually do that in two 10 hour days.

You can also cut the onsite baking time in half by preparing the dough

through the shaping, then freezing it, then putting it out on the baking

sheets to thaw and rise the second time. I believe there is an extensive

discussion of freezing dough in the Florilegium.

Since you admit to having problems with the mechanics of baking, I would

suggest finding some one who is a baker and talk to them about producing the

bread and helping you plan what needs to be done. It may be that you need a

small group of people to split the breadmaking between. And if you can't

make fresh baked, you can always fall back of purchasing bread.

Bear

> The best I have had available is 2 large ovens, eight burners (not that

> they are needed for bread), about 25' of prep and staging space.

> Terry Decker wrote:

>> What equipment do you have available and what are the time factors?

>> Bear

>>>

>>> In short, I haven't a clue about how to go about fixing 75-100 loaves of

>>> bread for a feast (200-300) people. Though I am concerned about the

>>> actual cooking process (my breads come out as either fluff balls or

>>> ballast), the mechanics are also overwhelming.

Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 18:12:17 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fair feast budget

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> What is your average dough weight to get a one pound loaf?

About 1.25 pounds of dough approximately. A lot depends of how dry the

flour is. Non-wheat loaves may be a little heavier

> Over all I was fortunate we have a healthfood store and was able to buy the

> poppy seeds much cheaper there, going through about 50 lbs of flour, I

> spent a total of 35 dollars for all the bread.

> Simon Hondy

For a German feast a few years ago, I got 48 loaves of manchet, 48 loaves of

rye and 160 Spanish pastries produced for $55 and 20 long hard hours. We

had the water in the kitchen fail, two ovens were not functioning (but I had

a convection oven available), a power failure, and a few other minor

problems. Veddy interesting, I spent as much time solving the problems as I

did baking. The pastries were the most difficult part of the project and

took more time than I had planned.

Bear

Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 20:28:12 -0500

From: "Terri Morgan" <nothingbutadame at inthe.sca.org>

Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] prep and staging fresh bread at feasts

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> I must confess that I bake in advance, and freeze the breads,

> double-wrapped in plastic wrap and aluminum foil. I take them

> out the night before and let them thaw in their wrappings. I

> bake in multiple batches, primarily on weekends. They're not

> warm from the oven, but still fresh and tasty.

<snip>

Pre-cooking and freezing most of the loaves and then baking *one* batch

of bread early in the morning when you're staging everything else sends the

scent out into the Hall in a very satisfactory way and clears your ovens up

soon enough for meat roasting.

I've only cooked at day event sites that let you in around 8 or 9 in the

morning - there's no way I'd be able to bake all the bread I needed. But if

I have the loaves ready to do their final rise on site while I'm unloading

the truck, then I can pop them in the oven in plenty of time to clear that

batch out for the rest of my cooking. It works for evoking bread-hunger.

Hrothny

Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 10:42:31 -0700

From: Maggie MacDonald <maggie5 at cox.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] question about breads

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

At 10:17 AM 6/1/2005,Alexa said something like:

> In a few modern cookbooks I have read the dough being

> frozen prior to rising, then when needed, bring dough

> out of the freezer, cover and let thaw and rise, then

> bake. Has anyone tried this? With everything else I

> will be doing the day or 2 before, I think it would be

> easier to thaw in stages and bake, then to have to

> keep stopping in the middle of chopping veggies, ect

> to mix dough, etc.

This was the method I used to do the feast for Calafian Anniversary last

November. It worked out really well. The only flaw I had was that instead

of having a flatter hearth bread, they were very very happy breads so they

ended up being huge round puffy loaves. The populace was gifted with the

scent of hot baking bread as they walked into the feast hall, so that

also helped.

> I have also heard of completing the process and then

> freezing the baked bread then thawing to serve. My

> only experience w/ this was w/ bread bowls that we

> made for stews. At that point, you want it kind of

> day old/hard or you end up w/ mush. I don't want hard

> bread for feast.

> Ideas??

> Alexa

I've also baked up a bazillion breads in advance and then thawed for use

later. At May Potrero war I made up about 100 fist sized stuffed bread

pockets and froze them 5 days before war, transported them frozen, then let

them thaw over the weekend. They turned out quite nice!! I didn't notice

any issues with the bread crust, but at that point I really wasn't too

fussy about quality (I was still kinda wigging over making sure that

everybody was _fed_).

Maggie MacD.

Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:30:22 -0700 (PDT)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] question about breads

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

When I bake bread for a large feast, I usually make the loaves about two days before. If you properly cool your bread and then wrap the uncut loaves very well, they will stay reasonably fresh unrefrigerated, unfrozen for two days. The loaves have to be uncut, or they will become stale rapidly.

Also, when I do bread in advance, I don't have time to do any other cooking. The day is devoted to bread, bread and more bread. I usually do my bread in workable batches. I make batch one, then set it to rise. While it is rising, I start batch two and set it to rise. I punch down batch one and let it rise again. I start batch three, punch down batch two and divide batch one into individual loaves and let rise again. I start batch four, punch down batch three, divide batch two, and put batch one in the oven for baking. If I need more, I start batch five, punch down batch four, divide batch three, take out batch one from the oven, put in batch two, put batch one on racks for cooling, wash bread pans and re-grease them for to put batch three in. I usually don't have any down time until the last batch is finished baking and I am too tired to do anything else.

The only frozen bread dough that I have used has been the commercial frozen dough. It takes along time to thaw and usually thaws unevenly. I had several loaves with one half still frozen and the other half starting to rise.

In freezing already baked bread, this is valuable if you make the bread weeks in advance. Otherwise it is pointless. Before freezing, make absolutely sure that the bread is no longer warm. When defrosting, take the bread out of its wrapping because there might be trapped condensation which would make your bread soggy.

Huette

Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 14:51:40 -0400

From: rbbtslyr <rbbtslyr at comporium.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] question about breads

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Id did a bit of research in my bread baking books. If I were to freeze

the dough after consulting my cook books, I would cut back on the yeast

a bit if I froze the dough. The bread yeast is brewers yeast and

specifically a lager yeast it will once it wakes up in the kneading,

continue to work, although much slower in a freezer, happily but slowly

converting starches and sugars that it can digest into CO2, otherwise

the changes that should occur are, a finer crumb to the loaf, a slight

change in the crust, it might be a bit thinner and a much greater oven

spring to the overall loaf due to the extra CO2, also if left to long

after comming to size at room temp a collaspe of the top of the bread.

I would be sure to add an extra score or two, before baking to allow

excess gas and water vapor out to prevent sogginess, also if kept in

the freezer for more than a few days.

Kirk

Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:15:21 -0700 (PDT)

From: Louise Smithson <helewyse at yahoo.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: questions about breads

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

from Alexa:

>>>

I will be making bread for an upcoming event. Due to

time and lack of large kitchen space, per norm, I

would like to premake the bread. Any suggestions?

<<<

Harold McGee (On food and cooking, an absolute gem) says this:

Staling proceeds most rapidly at temperatures just above freezing and

very slowly below freezing. In one experiment, bread stored in the

refrigerator at 46F/7C staled as much in one day as bread held at

86F/30C did in six days. If you're going to use bread in a day or two,

then store it at room temperature in a breadbox or paperbag, which

reduces moisture loss while allowing the crust to remain somewhat

crisp. If you need to keep bread for several days or more, then wrap it

well in plastic or foil and freeze it.

Also: Bread dough can be frozen, thawed and baked into bread, but

freezing kills a large proportion of the yeast cells, which means less

leavening power, a slower rise, and the spread of yeast chemicals that

weaken gluten. Sweet rich doughs turn out to freeze the best. The best

stage at which to freeze bread dough is after the dough has risen and

baked for 70 - 80% of its usual baking time. This frozen "par baked"

bread can be thawed and finished with just a few minutes in a hot oven.

Yeast survival is no longer important because the yeast cells have

done their leavening and are killed during the initial bake.

Helewyse

ps I strongly recommend this book to anyone who wants to know exactly

why things happen like they do. Once you understand the theory behind

something you can use it to your advantage.

Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:23:01 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] question about breads

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> I will be making bread for an upcoming event. Due to

> time and lack of large kitchen space, per norm, I

> would like to premake the bread. Any suggestions?

> In a few modern cookbooks I have read the dough being

> frozen prior to rising, then when needed, bring dough

> out of the freezer, cover and let thaw and rise, then

> bake. Has anyone tried this?

Yes. Double the yeast. Work the bread normally through the first rise,

then shape it, wrap it in wax paper, and wrap that tightly in aluminum foil.

Freeze and keep in a freezer that is not self-defrosting. To use, remove

from the freezer, place in or on the prepared tins, let thaw and rise.

Bake.

> With everything else I

> will be doing the day or 2 before, I think it would be

> easier to thaw in stages and bake, then to have to

> keep stopping in the middle of chopping veggies, ect

> to mix dough,etc.

> I have also heard of completeing the process and then

> freezing the baked bread then thawing to serve. My

> only experience w/ this was w/ bread bowls that we

> made for stews. At that point, you want it kind of

> day old/hard or you end up w/ mush. I don't want hard

> bread for feast.

> Ideas??

> Alexa

Let the baked bread cool completely before wrapping in aluminum foil or

plastic bags, then freeze it. To use, remove and let thaw for about 4 hours

(for a large loaf) placing it in a low oven for the last 30 minutes. For

feasts, taking it from the freezer and rebaking it for 30 to 40 minutes does

even better, but the bread needs to be used almost immediately.

Bear

Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:29:50 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] question about breads

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Frozen bread retains moisture better than refrigerated bread. Storing in

foil or plastic softens the crust. If you make the bread within a day or

two of the event and make it with the basics of water, flour, yeast and

salt, stacking them on the table works just fine.

Period breads don't use sugar.

Bear

Once the bread is done if it will be eaten in about a day allow it to cool

to room temp and place it in pouches made from Foil or parchment and

seal, storage baggies work to, to be one hundred precent sure you could

refridgerate. I keep my bread at home in storage baggie after it has been

cut for two or three days I hope this helps Btw for a perfect period bread

talk all the water, yeast, half the flour and sugar and let it work in a

bowl for about 4 to 8 hours afterwardd add the rest of the flour and knead

it for 10 to 15 minutes to develop the gluten.

Kirk

Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:40:55 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] question about breads

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Actually, the yeast goes dormant when you freeze it. If you leave it frozen

for any extensive period, you kill some of the yeast, which is why doubling

the yeast may be useful. The amount of yeast you need to use is dependent

upon the brand and type (dry active, cake, etc), so experimentation is

useful.

If you store the dough in a self-defrosting freezer, the temperature rises

above freezing reactivating the yeast in the outer layer. This makes for

lousy bread.

It takes about four hours for the loaf to thaw and rise.

Bear

Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 08:50:41 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] question about breads

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Bear said:

>> If you store the dough in a self-defrosting freezer, the temperature rises

>> above freezing reactivating the yeast in the outer layer. This makes

>> for lousy bread.

> Ooooh. Thank you. This makes sense. I bet it does make for poor bread.

> I had been wondering why you specified a non-frost-free freezer in an

> earlier message.

> Stefan

I once had the oozy experience of losing a loaf of frozen dough in a self

defrosting freezer for six months or so. It's empiric knowledge they don't

tell you in the cookbooks.

Bear

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 05:16:43 -0700 (PDT)

From: Alexa <mysticgypsy1008 at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] easy bread recipe?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Mundanely speaking, I worked in the kitchen of an

small school a few years back. Pretty much the main

thing on how much can you make at once would be how

much space do you have for rising and baking. Also,

how big a bowl do you have? The school I worked at

had the industrial mixer with the big bread hook.

They made a lot. Enough of those yummy school rolls

for about 600-and she made them almost every day.

Also, goes without saying, use weights for measuring

especially with that large a quantity of bread. It's

easy to use cups and so forth with a single or double

batch, but not something I would want to do for large

quantities of bread.

Anytime I have made bread for a crowd-I have cheated,

used my bread maker and just did an assembly line. I

only have the one oven at home, so therefore I am

limited on space. (July I made 12 large herb

breads-bundt pan size, along with 30 mixed grain bread

loaves about 9 inch diameter)

Alexa

--- "Lonnie D. Harvel" <ldh at ece.gatech.edu> wrote:

>> Question: How big of a batch of dough can you make at once. I fairly OK

> with single and double batches, but have never ventured beyond that.

> Aoghann

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 08:47:59 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] easy bread recipe?

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> A couple days ago, I found out that the kitchen I will be cooking in next

> weekend has a convection oven. Since I had not planned on this oven, I am

> contemplating making bread for the feast. I would need about 45 medium

> size loaves. I am looking for a fairly simple recipe, preferably including

> oats, that could be taken on by a couple of willing and relatively

> competent helpers.

> Question: How big of a batch of dough can you make at once. I fairly OK

> with single and double batches, but have never ventured beyond that.

> Aoghann

How big a mixer is available? Does it have a bread hook?

What size of containers do you have for the first rise?

What size is the convection oven?

A 10-12 quart Hobart will handle enough dough for 8 one pound loaves.

Larger mixers will handle more. If you don't have a mixer then 13 quart

stainless steel bowls can be used to prepare 8 one pound loaves. It takes

10 to 30 minutes to prepare dough, depending on technique and recipe.

A 13 quart stainless steel bowl will handle the rise for 8 pounds of bread.

For your purposes, the first rise will take 2 to 4 hours.

Kneading and shaping will take 20 to 30 minutes per 8 loaf batch.

A standard commercial baking sheet will handle 12 to 16 boules. The second

rise will take 1 to 2 hours.

A standard commercial convection oven will handle up to 3 commercial baking

sheets (I prefer 2) and take 25 to 35 minutes per batch, not including

pre-heat and re-heating times.

I calculate a one pound loaf as a single serving for 4 people and the

batches I prepare as 8 loaves. From experience, I can say it takes about 5

hours for me to knock out 48 loaves in a commercial kitchen. 8 hours at

home.

Bear

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:49:30 -0400

From: "Jeff Gedney" <gedney1 at iconn.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] easy bread recipe?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

You can also prepare the dough ahead of time, let it rise

once, shape it into loaves and then freeze em off.

Then all you have to do is leave them out to thaw and then

rise in a warm place on the day of the feast, until they

double, and then put them into the oven.

This leaves your crew available to do other things besides

fuss with bread, and lets you make the dough at home in

smaller batches.

You can also order bread dough already made up and ready

to shape from your local bakery. I did this with my local

Stop and Shop, and just picked it up the morning of the

feast. They even let me adjust one of their recipes to

make up the order (the lady in charge of the bakery said

it was nice to have something different to work on).

Capt Elias

Dragonship Haven, East

(Stratford, CT, USA)

Apprentice in the House of Silverwing

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 18:57:30 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] easy bread recipe?

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Terry Decker wrote:

>> How big a mixer is available? Does it have a bread hook?

> Hobart stand mixer, don't know if it has a bread hook. (wouldn't

> that be too convenient)

If this is a table top unit it should fall in the 10-12 quart range. If it

is a floor mixer, check to see what size it is. You may be able to make

your dough in one or two passes. Hobart's usually ship with a dough hook

and I really don't recommend trying to make dough without it. The results

can be--interesting.

>> What size of containers do you have for the first rise?

> Several extremely large plastic tubs that could be made available

> (cleaned and such)

Four gallon or larger buckets work well for an 8 to 12 loaf batch. Grease

the inside so you can get it back out. A solid shortening is better as it

reduces absorption into the dough. Spread a little vegetable oil on top of

the dough, then cover it with plastic wrap running back up the sides of the

buckets to keep air from the dough and the dough from sticking to the

plastic wrap (hopefully).

>> What size is the convection oven?

> It is a "commercial convection oven". I have not seen it.

See it before you lay your bets. Make sure it runs. Check the temp with an

oven thermometer. The site I normally prepare meals at I have two standard

ovens and a convection oven and I don't trust any of them.

>> A 13 quart stainless steel bowl will handle the rise for 8 pounds of

>> bread. For your purposes, the first rise will take 2 to 4 hours.

> I have such a bowl (I think, need to check)

If you only have one, use the buckets. I've got at least 5 of them.

> So, any suggestion on a recipe? This is what I cam up with so far

> from my cookbooks:

> Oatmeal Bread (1lb loaf)

> 3/4 cup water

> 1 Tbs oil

> 1 1/2 tsp honey

> 1 2/3 cups all-purpose flour

> 1/3 cup whole wheat flour

> 1/3 cup rolled oats

> 1 1/2 Tbs powdered milk

> 1 tsp salt

> 1 1/2 tsp active dry yeast

> This is from a bread machine cookbook, so the instructions are, "put all

> the ingredients in the pan in the order listed" ... "push Start." I

> assume that is not the process for a Hobart mixer and convection oven. I

> assume I mix the dry ingredients, then the liquids, then hit the start

> button on the Hobart. Form a mass, pull it out, let it rise till double.

> Beat it down, divide into loaves, place on pan, let rise a second time.

> Put in convection oven, push start. What would be an appropriate

> temperature for a convection oven? Approximate cook time?

> I just love new experiences!

> Aoghann

The recipe looks a little heavy on the yeast. One teaspoon per loaf should

be enough, but the one and a half teaspoons is not beyond limits. I would

just go with the recipe unless I planned to test it.

Blending a dough in a Hobart is different from a bread machine. For each

batch of dough, take a cup or two of water at 80-90 degrees F, sprinkle the

active dry yeast for the batch on top a little at a time and gentle stir it

into the water. You should have yeast bubbles rising gently to the surface

in about 10 minutes. Add the yeast mix to the rest of the water add the oil

and honey, then the powdered milk. Mix the dry ingredients other than the

salt together and put them in the mixing bowl on top of the liquor.

Sprinkle the salt on top of that. Run the mixer on low until a shaggy dough

forms, then increase the speed to medium and let the dough knead into a

smooth mass. I usually have to pull it off the hook once or twice, but

maybe you'll get luck and it will form a ball.

Divide the dough, if necessary, to fit the rising pans (remembering it will

try to double or better). Let rise.

Beat down. Divide (a bench knife or dough scrapper is useful here). Shape

and pan. Don't crowd the loaves, they're gonna grow. Let rise.

Kitchens with commercial baking sheets often have baking parchment sheets to

fit them. They make cleanup easier. A layer of cornmeal scattered on the

bottom of the pan will do the same thing.

If your recipe doesn't give a time and temperature, try 425 F for 30 minutes

for a 1 pound loaf. If it does have a time and temperature, convection

ovens cut about 1/3 off the conventional oven baking time. But that it a

rule of thumb and not to be trusted in a specific case. All ovens have

variables.

Pre-heat your oven. Check the temperature with an oven thermometer during

pre-heating. After you are at a steady temperature, pull the thermometer

and load the pans, close up and start the blower. If this is an electric

rather than a gas convection oven, be sure the blower is off before you open

the door. Electric heating elements don't like temperature shock. Let the

oven re-heat between loads.

If you really want to check the baking, make some extra loaves to go in the

first batch and pull one every 5 minutes beginning at 20 minutes to tear

open and check the crumb until the bread is baked. Preferably, I run a test

batch, but I doubt you'll have time for that luxury, although a small first

batch may be a practical substitute.

The dough is an enriched dough, so there may be greater browning of the

crust than you want. Keep an eye on the bread. If it starts getting too

brown, cover the top of the loaves with aluminum foil. This will change the

timing so you may need to add a few minutes to the baking time. Do not

leave the oven door open while tenting the loaves.

If you get uneven baking (which can happen even in a convection oven), swap

the baking sheets top to bottom and rotate them 180 degrees on the racks at

about 15-20 minutes (depending on the actual baking time)

Bear

Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 08:35:38 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] easy bread recipe?

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Bear commented:

>> I calculate a one pound loaf as a single serving for 4 people and the

>> batches I prepare as 8 loaves. From experience, I can say it takes about 5

>> hours for me to knock out 48 loaves in a commercial kitchen. 8 hours at

>> home.

> That's not as big a difference in time between using a commercial kitchen

> and a home kitchen as I thought it would be.

> Is this doing it just by yourself in each case? Do you have a

> commercial oven or mixer at home?

> Stefan

I usually work by hand at home and bake in a standard home oven (about a 30

inch cube) which will bake 8 boules at a time. Since the majority of the

time expended is in the rise, I control the time by staggering batches of 8

loaves and accelerating the rise. I also have the bowls, pans and baking

sheets to handle six oven loads before I need to wash the dishes. If I use

slower leavening techniques, more complicated shapings or larger loaves, the

time increases. Primarily, my success is due to practice.

In a commercial kitchen, the time is shaved by faster initial prep and being

able to bake about 32 loaves per oven load.

In each case, this is just me in the kitchen. I can save a little more time

with some assistance, but I haven't been able to ditch the 3 hours

minimum rising.

Bear

Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 22:50:28 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] easy bread recipe?

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Actually, if you do much less than a two hour first rise and a one hour

second rise, you are either using too much yeast or have the temperature of

the dough too high. In both cases, the quality of the crumb and the flavor

suffers. If I have the luxury of time, I will reduce the yeast and lengthen

the rise to improve the final product.

The optimal rising temperature for bread dough is between 65 and 90 degrees

F and it does best around 78F. If your dough goes over 110 F, you're

killing yeast.

In any event, I don't have a usable garage or enclosed porch, nor do most of

the sites I bake at.

Bear

> In the summer, I have found a little short cut to

> this. I used to have a garage. I used to set up a

> table and set the covered rising bowl or covered pan

> on the table-worked kind of like the commercial

> proofers. Used to cut my rise time in half. I now

> have a sun room/enclosed porch-still helps cut down my

> rise time. Of course, out of luck for this in the

> cooler months.

> Alexa

> --- Terry Decker <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>> but I haven't been able to ditch the 3 hours minimum rising.

>> Bear

Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 18:23:03 -0500

From: "Lonnie D. Harvel" <ldh at ece.gatech.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Panera Bread

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Yes, Panera donated the bread at the end of the day. I just walked up to

the counter, about two weeks prior, explained that I was part of a

non-profit, that we were hosting a "medieval dinner" and could I speak

to the manager. A very pleasant gentleman came and spoke with me. I

explained what the SCA was (had the printout from sca.org with me just

in case, but did not need it), and he put my name and group down on the

calendar for the day I wanted. Ask when you should arrive (about 15

minutes before closing for me).

Be sure to announce who gave you the bread, or have it on the menu. We

gave them a nice letter saying thanks, and have a scroll in the works

for them now. They are just going to throw the bread away, so they just

hand you the bags filled with bread that would otherwise go into the

dumpster. (They do donate it to local shelters as well, but here in

Athens, with several bakeries, the shelters can't use it all.)

Bring people to help you. It is the 5 massive bags of bread (about 50 lbs

or more each) that took my back out and Serena had to cook the feast

for me!

Aoghann

Sandra J. wrote:

> I seem to recall someone on this list mentioning that

> Panera Bread had donated the bread for their feast.

> Somehow or another, I have become in charge of the

> bread for a local Yule. (I have no memory of

> volunteering, but the head cook is quite insistent

> that I did.) :) I guess my memory is already going...

> In any case, does anyone have any advice on how to

> contact Panera?

> Like this:

> "Hi, I'm with a non-profit group and we are putting on

> a meal for 100 people. Is there any chance you could

> donate your day-old bread?"

> Thanks,

> Clara von Ulm