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bread-stuffed-msg - 9/7/09


Period stuffed breads - Breads stuffed and baked with various mixtures. Rastons.


NOTE: See also the files: bread-msg, breadmaking-msg, Bread-Hist-art, pretzels-msg, ovens-msg,  pasta-msg, butter-msg, flour-msg, rice-msg, grains-msg.





This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.


This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org


I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.


The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.


Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).


Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org



Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 17:48:52 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: SC - Rastons (was: dumb Bread trencher Question)


At 10:39 PM -0600 11/7/98, Decker, Terry D. wrote:

>To my knowledge, there is no evidence that bread bowls were used in period.

>However, rastons come close.  Rastons are a white bread fortified with eggs

>on which the top has been carefully cut away, the soft inner bread scooped

>out, crumbled and fried with spices, then returned to the loaf and to top

>placed on before serving.




My rastons recipe (from Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books) calls for you

to crumble the inside of the bread while keeping the sides and bottom crust

whole, adding butter to the crumbs and mixing, putting the top back on, and

rebaking the whole thing briefly.  No frying and no spices. Where is your

recipe from?


Elizabeth/Betty Cook



Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:03:44 -0600

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Rastons (was: dumb Bread trencher Question)


> My rastons recipe (from Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books) calls for you

> to crumble the inside of the bread while keeping the sides and bottom crust

> whole, adding butter to the crumbs and mixing, putting the top back on, and

> rebaking the whole thing briefly.  No frying and no spices. Where is your

> recipe from?


> Elizabeth/Betty Cook


No recipe.  The only reference I had handy was a set of general notes.  I'm

running some comparisons between various authors.  This particular entry is

from the general commentary in Sass's To The King's Taste.


As you raised the question, I located my copy of Sass and checked the raston

recipe, rather than the commentary.  It is from Harleian and is as you

stated.  Sass interprets this as mixing the butter and crumbs in the skillet

used to melt the butter.





Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:44:12 -0500

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>

Subject: Re: SC - Rastons (was: dumb Bread trencher Question)


On the topic of "bowls as containers", here's a 16th century

Spanish recipe for stuffed bread.


The recipe is from a 1971 reprint of the 1599 edition of _Libro Del

Arte De Cozina_ by Diego Granado.  The translation is mine; feel

free to play with it.


To Stuff a Large Bread


Take a round bread of two pounds, cooked the day before [1], and

make a round opening in the middle of the bottom crust, and take

out all the crumb in such a manner that nothing remains but the

crust, which you must scrape on the outside before taking out the

crumb.  Have a composition made of a cooked capon breast

pounded in a mortar with the yolks of hard-cooked eggs, and

marzipan paste, and mostachones [2], mixing everything with

raisins and chopped herbs, and raw eggs, cinnamon, and saffron, a

good deal.  Stuff the bread and fasten the opening with the crust

that you took out, and put said bread in a proportionately-sized

copper stewpot, in such a manner that it is neither very big or very

small, with fatty broth, and have it cook gently for the space of an

hour and a half, and when the bread has swollen, it is cooked.

Drain the broth from the vessel and put the bread on the plate with

dexterity, for otherwise it cannot be removed intact.


You can cook it in another manner, and it is this: having stuffed the

bread, put it in a napkin or cloth [3], and being fastened put it in a

little caldron with boiling broth and let it cook held with a little cord

fastening the napkin, so that with the boiling it does not go hither

and thither: the bread being cooked in one of the aforesaid

manners, serve it hot with sugar and cinnamon, and a little of the

fatty broth on top.  In this bread can be cooked little birds with their

insides cleaned, and entrails, and testicles of a young goat.


[1] "de un dia" -- I interpret that as one day old.


[2] "mostachones" --  my modern dictionary compares them to

gingerbread, and my guide to Spanish cuisine says that they are

for dipping in coffee or hot chocolate.


[3] "estame~na" This is a cloth of wool or serge, used in many

other recipes as a strainer.



Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:21:08 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: SC - Stuff inside bread (was: Bread Soup Bowls)


At 10:46 PM -0800 11/10/98, Laura C Minnick wrote:

>... In one area, there is

>two men and a woman looking over a crenellated edge at the scene below,

>and one of the men is holding in his hand what I can only describe as a

>Hostess Fruit Pie- you know, the half-moon shape, filled, and crimped

>along the rounded edge. Given the particular contortions his face is in,

>it looks as though he's eating, so I would gather he's nibbling on his

>pie. What might be in the pie, I don't know.


Maybe this?


Ryschewys Closed and Fried

Two Fifteenth Century p. 45/97


Take figs, and grind them small in a mortar with a little oil, and grind

with them cloves and maces; and then take it up into a vessel, and cast

thereto pines, saunders and raisons of corinth and minced dates, powdered

pepper, canel, salt, saffron; then take fine paste of flour and water,

sugar, saffron and salt, and make fair cakes thereof; then roll thine stuff

in thine hand and couch it in the cakes and cut it, and fold them in

ryshews, and fry them up in oil; and serve forth hot. [end of original,

spelling modernized]


25 black mission figs

2 t oil

1 t cloves

1 t mace

1/4 c pine nuts

1/4 t saunders

1/3 c currants

5 1/2 oz dates

1/8 t pepper

1 t cinnamon

1/4 t salt

4 threads saffron

pastry:  2 c flour, 1/2 c water, 1 T sugar, 1/8 t salt, 1 thread saffron

more oil for frying


Chop dates. Grind figs with oil cloves, and mace, then mix with rest of

filling ingredients. Mix pastry ingredients; take a lump of dough and roll

out into a flat circle about 4"-5" across. Put some filling on, fold the

circle in half and seal the edges. Fry them in oil, flipping them over when

the first side is done.


I think some versions of this recipe call them "rischews is lent" which

implies that there is a meat-day version as well, though I don't have a



Elizabeth/Betty Cook



Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:10:03 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: SC - Stuff inside bread (was: Bread Soup Bowls)


At 12:10 AM -0500 11/11/98, Stefan li Rous wrote:


>What did period folk do for food on the go? Did they always sit down to

>eat? We can't seem to find proof of sandwiches or breadbowls or flatbreads

>with meats in them (such as Greek Gyros or tortillas).


>Now, Elizabeth and Bear have brought up rastons recently. This was a bread

>with stuff stuffed inside it, but it appears to be only buttered bread.

>Is there evidence of anything else being stuffed or cooked inside bread

>which would then fit into the same niche as modern sandwiches?


Here is an Islamic recipe for precisely that.


Recipe for the Barmakiyya

Andalusian p. A-9


It is made with hens, pigeons, ring doves, small birds, or lamb. Take what

you have of it, then clean it and cut it and put it in a pot with salt and

onion, pepper, coriander and lavender or cinnamon, some murri naqi, and

oil. Put it over a gentle fire until it is nearly done and the sauce is

dried. Take it out and fry it with mild oil without overdoing it, and leave

it aside. Then take fine flour and semolina, make a well-made dough with

yeast, and if it has some oil it will be more flavorful. Then stretch this

out into a thin loaf and inside this put the fried and cooked meat of these

birds, cover it with another thin loaf, press the ends together and place

it in the oven, and when the bread is done, take it out. It is very good

for journeying; make it with fish and that can be used for journeying too.

[end of original]


Note: The Barmecides were a family of Persian viziers who served some of

the early Abbasid Caliphs, in particular Haroun al-Rashid, and were famed

for their generosity.


1/2 c sourdough 3 T olive oil for dough 1 1/2 t (lavender or) cinnamon

3/4 c water     1 lb boned chicken or lamb      1 t salt

1 1/2 c white flour     10 oz chopped onion     1 T murri (see the


1 1/2 c semolina        1/2 t pepper    3 T olive oil

(1 t salt in dough)     1 t coriander   3 T more olive oil for frying


Cut the meat fairly fine (approximately 1/4" slices, then cut them up),

combine in a 3 quart pot with chopped onion, 1 t salt, spices, murri, and 3

T oil. Cook over a medium low to medium heat about an hour. Cover it at the

beginning so it all gets hot, at which point the onion and meat release

their juices; remove the cover and cook until the liquid is gone, about 30

minutes. Then heat 3 T oil in a large frying pan on a medium high burner,

add the contents of the pot, fry over medium high heat about five minutes.


Stir together flour, semolina, 1 t salt. Gradually stir in 3 T oil. Combine

3/4 c water, 1/2 c sourdough. Stir this into the flour mixture and knead to

a smooth dough (which should only take a few minutes). If you do not have

sourdough, omit it; since the recipes does not give the dough much time to

rise, the sourdough probably does not have a large effect on the

consistency of the dough.


Divide the dough in four equal parts. Take two parts, turn them out on a

floured board, squeeze and stretch each (or use a rolling pin) until it is

at least 12" by 5". Put half the filling on one, put the other on top,

squeeze the edges together to seal. Repeat with the other two parts of the

dough and the rest of the filling. Bake on a cookie sheet at 350¡ for 40



For the fish version, start with 1 1/4 lb of fish (we used salmon). If it

is boneless, proceed as above, shortening the cooking time to about 35

minutes; it is not necessary to cut up the fish fine, since it will crumble

easily once it is cooked. If your fish has bones, put it on top of the oil,

onions, spices etc., in the largest pieces that will fit in the pot, cover

the pot, and cook for about 10-15 minutes, until the fish is almost ready

to fall apart; in effect, it is being steamed by the liquid produced from

the onions and by its own liquid. Take out the fish, bone it, return to the

pot, and cook uncovered about 30 minutes until the liquid is mostly gone.

Continue as above.


Elizabeth/Betty Cook



Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 18:28:28 -0600

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Rastons experiment


Sass used 1/2 cup of butter to what I believe is a 2 lb. loaf.


She also says reheat at 350 degrees for a few minutes.  I translate that as

being between 5 and 10 minutes.





Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 18:36:15 -0600

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Rastons experiment


> . What did you serve this with? Sounds like it

> would be best with stewed meat and onions poured over a serving size

> portion.


> Ras


The recipe for rastons uses an egg enriched dough.  It might have been used

as you suggest, but I think it may be a predecessor to fruit breads.


There is supposed to be a recipe earlier than this one for "Wastels yfarced"

(IIRC) which I do not have and may shed some light on how stuffed breads

were served.





Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 20:01:39 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Rastons experiment


"Decker, Terry D." wrote:

> There is supposed to be a recipe earlier than this one for "Wastels yfarced"

> (IIRC) which I do not have and may shed some light on how stuffed breads

> were served.


If I remember correctly (hah!) Wastels yfarced are boiled in a cloth

like a pudding. The stuffing is slightly different, too.



¯stgardr, East



Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 20:11:03 -0500

From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)

Subject: RE: SC - Rastons experiment


>The recipe for rastons uses an egg enriched dough.  It might have been used

>as you suggest, but I think it may be a predecessor to fruit breads.


>There is supposed to be a recipe earlier than this one for "Wastels yfarced"

>(IIRC) which I do not have and may shed some light on how stuffed breads

>were served.




Hello!  I also use 1/2 cup clarified butter, & re-heat the bread in a warm

oven for about 10 minutes.  The problem I have with this recipe is that it

is very messy to eat.  The buttered crumbs fall all over the place, & leave

greasy stains.


The recipe for Wastels yfarced (Forme of Cury, p. 72):


Take a Wastel and hewe out [th]e crinnes.  take ayren & shepis talow &

[th]e crinne of [th]e same Wastell powdor fort & salt wt Safron and Raisons

corance. & medle alle [th]ise yfere & do it in [th]e Wastel. close it &

bynde it fast togidre. and see[th] it wel.


As you can see, this one is tied & boiled like a pudding.



renfrow at skylands.net



Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:33:01 -0800

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Rastons experiment


At 11:30 PM -0500 11/24/98, Stefan li Rous wrote:

>I just tried my hand at making Rastons using the following message posted

>here recently:


>I started with a nine inch round sourdough loaf from the deli area of my local

>grocery. It was several days old when I got around to making it. I would think

>this would actually be more likely than a freshly baked loaf, anyway.


>I cut off the top. I had originally thought I could crumble the bread inside

>the crust, but ended up scooping it out into a bowl first, crumbling it there

>and mixing it back into the bread while adding margarine (I didn't have any

>butter). I first cooked it for six minutes at 400 degrees. When I checked it,

>the center was still cool and the margarine unmelted. So I put it back in

>the oven at 200 degrees for about 15 minutes more. I cooked it in a cake pan

>on the top rack of a gas oven.


>The end result was good, but not great. When I tried to cut it, the crust

>burst into pieces. I don't think that is what I wanted.


Here is the original recipe plus our version out of the Miscellany. Note

that the bread dough has sugar and eggs in it, which your sourdough bread

probably lacks. Note also that since you are told to bake the bread and

then to cut it, etc, with no indication of a break, several-day-old bread

is probably not more accurate.



Two Fifteenth Century p. 52/63


Take fayre Flowre, and the whyte of Eyroun, and the yolk, a lytel; than

take Warme Berme, and putte al thes to-gederys, and bete hem to-gederys

with thin hond tyl it be schort and thikke y-now, and caste Sugre y-now

ther-to, and thenne lat reste a whyle; than kaste in a fayre place in the

oven, and late bake y-now; and then with a knyf cutte yt round a-boue in

maner of a crowne, and kepe the crust that thou kyttyst; and than pyke al

the cromys with-ynne to-gederys, an pike hem smal with thyn knyf, and saue

the sydys and al the cruste hole with-owte; and than caste ther-in

clarifiyd Botor, and mille the cromes and the botor to-gederes, and keuere

it a-gen with the cruste, that thou kyttest a-way; than putte it in the

ovyn agen a lytil tyme; and than take it out, and serue it forth.  [end of

original; thorns replaced by th]


2 1/4 c flour

2 egg whites

1 egg yolk

1/2 T dried yeast (mixed with 1/2 c water)

1/2 c sugar

1 c butter


After mixing all ingredients except for butter, let the dough rise 45

minutes to an hour. Mold the dough on a greased cookie sheet, let rise a

little more. Bake at 350¡ about 1 hour. Cut off top as described, mix

insides of loaf with melted butter, and replace top. Second baking is about

5 minutes at the same temperature.


Elizabeth/Betty Cook



Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 17:00:44 -0500


Subject: SC - I Fired My Bread!


Now that I have (more or less) gotten all put back together from Lilies

I have time to report on my adventure in baking bread with real fire.

But first let me take this opportunity to say that Lilies' weather this

year was the best ever since I have been attending (6 years):  Days in

the 70's and nights in the 50's with low (for Missouri) humidity;

perfect camping weather (for those of us who brought blankets)!  And

only 1 day of rain (I'm not counting the nights)!  We should be so lucky

again.  I am presuming the Weather Gods felt mildly guilty for last year and

were trying to make things up to us--contributions must have been down.


And now for our story...


I started about 11:00 a.m. stoking the fire.  Used mostly Pin Oak

kindling and some mystery logs someone brought.  Our fire pit was

roughly 3' by 3' by 18" deep.  There was a little keyhole notch, 1' by

1' by 6" deep, dug on the up-wind side.


Fire Pit Illustration (this may not come out O.K., but you can kinda get

the picture):



|               |

|               \-----|

|                     |       <---Nitch for coals

|               /-----|

|               |




Once the fire was going I mixed up the dough using Cindy Renfrow's

redaction of Rastons in *Thousand Eggs* (Cindy, may I print your recipe

on this list?).  Since I forgot modern measuring implements I fell back on

the time tested method of Guesstimation (I used eating implements as

rough measures).


Since temperature was only in the low 70's by the time I finished mixing

it, to keep it warm and cozy I covered it with a damp towel and put it

in the (normally) hot (but now just uncomfortably warm) old mundane tent

I was using as a storage closet. It took 2ish hours to rise to double in

bulk.  I punched it down, shaped it into a ball and placed it on a

greased 9" stoneware pie plate, that being a close approximation to a

stone hearth AND the right size to fit into my little Coleman-type

oven.  I returned the mass with dampened towel to my improvised

"proofing oven" for another rise.  Since by now it was honestly hot in

the tent the dough rose much more quickly this time. Also, I didn't

quite let it double in size since I was afraid that with the spring in

the oven it would grow too large for its baking confines: my oven is

roughly one foot square.


In the mean time, I kept the fire stoked; the neighbors cooked lunch on

it and I placed my oven on the ground over its little niche in the dirt

to warm up.  Conveniently, the fire was sufficiently burned down to

coals when the bread was ready to bake, and the pit was nice and hot.


After removing the oven, I took a shovel and rounded up all of the coals

that were ready (which were most of them), scooping them into the niche

the oven had been on. I replaced the oven over the niche with its coals and

put my little 9" bun it the oven.  I then sat impatiently in front of the

oven's glass window to watch the show.  After 3 minutes of the wind

switching directions and blowing smoke from a smoldering bit of wood

into my face I gave it up and puttered around camp for half an hour,

checking the bread frequently.


Its initial spring was good, but things slowed down after that, I think

because the breeze came up, or maybe because the coals were too far gone

after the first 20 minutes.  At any rate, its size was good, but it was

too pale.  By now it was time to stoke the fire for dinner, so I dropped

some more mystery wood on the pit and built up a nice blaze behind the

oven.  And, Lo, the bread began to take on some color!  I turned it

once, obtaining a nice, fairly even, golden color.  The texture was a

little moist and could have used a little more time in the cooker, but I

was afraid at the rate it was browning it would just burn if I left it

in longer.


The recipe calls for scooping out the guts and mixing the cut up bits

with clarified butter.  Unfortunately, I forgot the butter and was

forced to use (shudder) Shedd's Spread.  It tasted fine anyway.  I was

supposed to wait for the loaf to cool before I gutted it, but I forgot

that part in the excitement of the moment and did it while it was (very)

warm.  I might have gotten a better texture if I had waited until it was



After replacing the crumbs in the cavity of the crust, the loaf sat

around and got quite cool waiting for dinner to be served. However, after

returning it to the oven for a few minutes we ate the bread for dinner.

My camp mates seemed surprised but they pronounced it not only edible

but "Very Good."  However, for my personal palate I think I will add some

salt next time even though none of the original recipes called for it.


That's all for now.  Let me know what you think.  I plan to do this again;

it was so easy!  I want to build an earthen oven at home and play with that.

Does anyone have any specs on something like that?


Melisande Saucheverel


Barony of Forgotten Sea



Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 21:17:37 -0400

From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)

Subject: Re: SC - I Fired My Bread!


Bravo!  Here you are (I changed it a bit in the 2nd. edition):


Harleian MS. 279 - Dyuerse Bake Metis

xxv.  Rastons.  Take fayre Flowre, & [th]e whyte of Eyroun, & [th]e

[3]olke, a lytel; [th]an take Warme Berme, & putte al [th]es to-gederys, &

bete hem to-gederys with [th]in hond tyl it be schort & [th]ikke y-now, &

caste Sugre y-now [th]er-to, & [th]enne lat reste a whyle; [th]an kaste in

a fayre place in [th]e oven, & late bake y-now; & [th]en with a knyf cutte

yt round a-boue in maner of a crowne, & kepe [th]e crust [th]at [th]ou

kyttyst; & [th]an pyke al [th]e cromys with-ynne to-gederys, an pike hem

smal with [th]in knyf, & saue [th]e sydys & al [th]e cruste hole with-owte;

& [th]an caste [th]er-in clarifiyd Boter, & Mille [th]e crome3 & [th]e

botere to-gedere[3], & keuere it a-[3]en with [th]e cruste, [th]at [th]ou

kyttest a-way; [th]an putte it in [th]e ovyn a[3]en a lytil tyme; & [th]an

take it out, & serue it forth.


25.  Rastons.  Take fair Flour, & the white of Eggs, & the yolk, a little;

then take Warm Barm,  & put all these together, & beat them together with

thine hand till it is short & thick enough, & cast Sugar enough thereto, &

then let rest a while; then cast in a fair place in the oven, & let bake

enough; & then with a knife cut it round above in manner of a crown, & keep

the crust that thou cut; & then pick all the crumbs within together, and

pick them small with thine knife, & save the sides & all the crust whole

without; & then cast therein clarified Butter, & Mix the crumbs & the

butter together, & cover it again with the crust, that thou cuttest away;

then put it in the oven again a little time; & then take it out, & serve it



The ale yeast or "barm" called for in this recipe is a solution of active

yeast skimmed from working ale.  Since modern commercially available beer

and ale are not active enough, extra yeast has been added here.


2 Tablespoons sugar

2 eggs, beaten

1 cup warm ale or beer (105 degrees to 115 degrees F.)

1 package yeast

3 1/2 cups bread flour

1/2 cup butter, clarified


Put 2 cups of flour and the yeast in a large mixing bowl. Add sugar.  Add

ale and eggs.  Stir.  Add enough additional flour to make a stiff dough.

Turn out onto a floured board and knead until the dough is smooth and

elastic.  Form into a round loaf and place on a greased baking sheet.

Cover and let rise in a warm place until doubled in bulk. (Optional:

brush the loaf with milk for a shiny finish.)  Bake at 400s F. for 25 to 30

minutes, or until the loaf sounds hollow when tapped. Remove the loaf from

the oven and place it on a wire rack.  When it has cooled completely, cut

off the top crust and scoop out the center of the loaf. Cut the crumbs

into pieces and mix with the clarified butter.  Put the crumb mixture back

into the loaf and cover with the top crust.  Put the loaf in a warm oven

for 10 minutes to heat the butter before serving.  Remove from oven and

serve hot.


Makes one large loaf.  Serves 6 to 8.


(from "Take a Thousand Eggs or More", copyright 1990, 1997, Cindy Renfrow.)





Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:11:03 PDT

From: "pat fee" <lcatherinemc at hotmail.com>

Subject: RE: SC - OOP - Cheese Bread


  Here is the "stuffed bread" recipe. Makes two long loaves


1 pkg yeast(dry or cube) I use a yeast that I get from a local boutique

bakery.  They collect it, by using wine grapes and letting the natural

yeasts inoculate a starter mix. No it is not sourdough


1 tsp. Honey or sugar when I make the Italian version


1 Table spoon salt Optional, but it works better if you use it.


3 Table spoons good olive oil


3 1/2 cups flour (hard wheat, with i/2 cup of this being whole wheat flour

to approximate period flour)


2 good size leeks chopped and cooked in butter


3 of cloves  of garlic finely chopped and adder to the above and cooked with



1 to 2 cups shredded cheese, of your choice.  I use a three year old white

english cheddar like cheese, or munster.


Finely sliced cooked beef or ham, or other meats of your choice.  This is

really good done with venison or game bird. (add  up to 1/2 pound per loaf.


  Make the bread as usual to the first raising stage. Place in a greased

bowl and let raise till double.  Cut in half and place on a floured board

and roll out the dough half until about 1/2-1/4 inch thick.  Sprinkle with

1/4 of cheese.  Lay out the meat until the dough is covered to about 1/2

inch from all sides. arrange 1/2 of cooked vegies over meat.  Top with

another 1/4 of cheese.  Roll up starting with long side tucking in ends.

Place on a buttered flat pan to rise until double in bulk. Repeat with

other half of  ingredients.  Bake in a warmed 350 degree oven 35 minutes

until golden and it sounds hollow when tapped.  Cool and serve.


L.Katherinen Mc.

Barony of Califia



Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:11:23 PDT

From: "pat fee" <lcatherinemc at hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: SC - stuffed breads


  Yes this recipe is based on an Mediterranean recipe that appeared in a

book called the Doge's Pantry.  I'm at work now and don't have the ISBN# or

the author's name handy but will post it if you want. The recipes are based

on pages found in a palace in Fluoresce Italy during a restoration. in  the

middle 60's


L.Katherine Mc



Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:58:22 -0500 (EST)

From: <jenne at fiedlerfamly.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period Foods: How to Fake It!

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


> What are they filled wth? Barmakiya is meat and stuff between two

> layers of bread/pastry like stuff, and Sanbusak is a fried dough

> filled with stuffing, but off hand I can't think of period recipes I

> would describe as "filled rolls." Examples?


The leftovers wrapped in bead dough mentioned in the Domostroi...


-- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net



Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 17:01:09 -0600

From: "margaret" <m.p.decker at att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Looking for Recipes and Documentation

To: <alysk at ix.netcom.com>,    "Cooks within the SCA"

        <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


> My first thought was that yeast-raised bread with meat stuffing didn't

> really exist in our time period, did it? Yeast-raised breads were pretty

> much post-period, weren't they?  Any help with period recipes for the

> above would be appreciated.


> Alys Katharine


Yeast raised breads are fairly common in any culture that drinks ale.  The

yeast that ferments ale is the same yeast that is used for bread.  Yeast

breads with meat stuffings are a different matter.  The only one I can think

of off the top of my head is a Sicilian dish presumably adopted from the



I think the lack of recipes may stem from the fact that bread was a price

and quality controlled food in most of Europe.  The standards often worked

against new and uncontrolled types of bread with feastday limitation being

put on the preparation of fancy and filled breads.


Another consideration is that breads in Medieval Europe were baked and used

or sold over several days.  Meat stuffed yeast bread is more perishable than

other bread or hard shelled pies.





Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:29:32 -0600

From: Michael Gunter <countgunthar at hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A question pardon if it has been asked

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


> So would it not be a logical thought that other stuff may have >  

> been presented this way? [as Rastons. Bread crumbs hollowed out of a loaf, mixed with butter and put back in the loaf]


Well, the first thing that comes to mind are the lobster rolls.

To make Lobster-Loaves. PICK out all the Meat of three little  

Lobsters shred it a little; take a piece of Butter, and brown it with  

Flour in a Sauce-pan: the stir in a very little Onion and Parsley  

shred very fine, and put in a little Pepper, a Spoonful of Anchovy  

Liquor, three or four Spoonfuls of good Gravy, three Yolks of Eggs  

well beat; stir all these over the Fire in the brown Butter, then put  

in the Lobster, and stir it a little together: Take three French  

Rolls, and cut a round Piece off the top of each, and pick out the  

Crumb, but do not Break Holes through the Sides of the Bread; fill up  

the Roll with the Mixture you have prepared; put on the Piece of Top  

you cut off, close and tie them round with a Piece of Tape: Make some  

Dripping boiling hot in your Frying-pan; and when you have just dipt  

the Roll in Milk, throw it in to the Pan-full of scalding Liquor:  

When they are crisp, take them out, and take off the Tape: Be sure to  

put in three times as much Parsly as Onion.


Thus you may do Shrimp or Oyster-Loaves.



> Anne de la Mare




Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:51:00 -0500

From: Gretchen Beck <grm at andrew.cmu.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A question pardon if it has been asked

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


--On Friday, January 18, 2008 3:41 PM -0500 Amy Cooper

<amy.s.cooper at gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't have a heck of a lot of experience redacting. I *think* I get the

> gist of the recipe (making a sort of roux-thickened lobster sauce to put

> into the bread bowls), but what is meant by Piece of Tape? And is it

> saying to deep-fry the taped bowls?


It's probably a sort of string -- perhaps something like bias tape.  The OED

has Tape: 1. a. A narrow woven strip of stout linen, cotton, silk, or  other

textile, used as a string for tying garments, and for other purposes for

which flat strings are suited, also for measuring lines, etc. dating to 1000


So, yup either deep frying or pan frying with the tape on to keep the  

roll together.


toodles, margaret



Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:53:33 -0600

From: Michael Gunter <countgunthar at hotmail.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Lobster Roll

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


> but what is meant by Piece of Tape? And is it saying> to deep-fry  

> the taped bowls?


My guess would be to take a strip of parchment paper and

put over the seam where the top was cut off, then secured

with string.


And the roll isn't so much deep fried as panfried in maybe

a half inch or less of hot oil.


Still, it looks really good.


> Ilsebet




Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:53:36 -0500

From: "Ron Carnegie" <r.carnegie at verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A question pardon if it has been asked

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


    My cooking experience is more 18th century than pre 17th century.  So to

is my technical knowledge of period terms for textiles. Sometimes it

applies, sometimes it does not.  In the 18th century however, tape is a long

thin piece of cloth, like a ribbon.  The term still survives today as "bias

tape".  Bureacratic "red tape" is supposed to come from the same textile.

Your receipt certainly seems to be applying to the same thing, since it

mentions tying it around the rolls. String ought to work just as well.


     It is not clear to me if the receipt is calling for deep frying or pan

frying.  I suspect pan frying, I suspect deep frying would be better  



Ranald de Balinhard



Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:15:46 -0600

From: Michael Gunter <countgunthar at hotmail.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] More on lobster rolls

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


I found the archive page with a picture of the roll.




Looks like it is quite a bit out of period, though.





Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 15:48:58 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coffyn pan and bread bowls

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


Both of the Harleian recipes for Rastons call for cutting them "round about

(or above) in the manner of a crown" then recovering the bottom and its

contents with the top.  How this is done depends on one's concept of a

crown, but any dagging or crenelation would be easier done in a  

larger loaf.

I think a loaf of eight ounces to one pound would best suit this dish.




>> Rastons certainly present an argument for filling rolls with butter

>> soaked bread, but translating that into a larger-than-a-roll piece

>> of bread filled with stew is a bit of a stretch.


> I thought Rastons were relatively large. And apparently I thought

> wrong, or at least not absolutely correct: the 15th century recipe

> doesn't specify size or number of servings. On the other hand, since a

> cover at a feast often served two, it might be considered a large  

> roll.


> Adamantius



Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:56:43 -0500 (GMT-05:00)

From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Bread bowls

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org


OK, did anyone mention bazmaward from "A Baghdad Cookery Book" for  

things served in a bread loaf? It's almost identical to the chicken  

in bread loaf from Sicily; both dishes call for loaves of bread,  

hollowed out, stuffed with cooked meat and nuts pounded finely with  

liquid (vinegar and rosewater, in the case of bazmaward, straight  

lemon juice for the pasticcio; walnuts in the bazmaward, but almonds  

and pistachios for the Sicilian dish, as they are plentiful on that  

island). The main difference is that bazmwards are sliced "into  

medium elongated pieces" and packed into an earthenware dish with  

mint leaves, and the Sicilian dish is baked again on its own. But it  

is sliced and served cold like bazmaward, and like bazmaward, even  

better-tasting the next day. The pasticcio, because it is associated  

with ibn al-Thumna, seems to be a reworking of bazmaward for him by  

his creative cooks. But that will just have to be speculation because  

they did not leave us behind a recipe, and I a

  m sure that the way it has descended to us these days leaves out  

things the original probably included.


It definitely ain't soup or stew in a bread bowl, though.





Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 18:52:18 -0500 (EST)

From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Meat/Bread to make ahead

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org


Dame Serena gave her version of the pasticcio; here's mine:


1 boneless chicken breast

1 or 2 boneless chicken thighs (depends how big they are)



1 TBS of sumac

1 TBS of white pepper

1 TBS of ground cubebs

1 TBS of cumin

1/2 cup of white balsamic vinegar

sea salt to taste

olive oil for sauteeing


1 cup of coarsely chopped fresh parsley

1 or 2 TBS of capers (the ones in brine, not vinegar)

1 large onion, minced finely

Juice from two large lemons

2 eggs

1 cup chicken broth

1/4 cup of toasted almonds

1/2 a cup of pistachios

1 large round loaf of Italian bread


Sautee the chicken with the spices, onions, and olive oil; when the onions have caramelized, deglaze with the vinegar and let cook until the vinegar mostly evaporates and mellows. Set aside to cool.


Take your bread load, take a slice off the top to act as a lid, and hollow it out. I use a small ice cream scoop. Reserve the bread chunks. Some you can use let get stale and use any time you need bread crumbs to thicken a dish; you'll really need only about 1 or 2 cups of bread crumbs at the most for this recipe.


Grind the nuts in a food processor, put in a mixing bowl with the bread crumbs. When the chicken has cooled, grind that in the food processor, using the juices from the pan and a bit of olive oil to create a paste. Add that to the bowl as well, and mix everything with the chicken broth, eggs, and lemon juice. Finally, stir in the capers and parsley.


Put the mixture into the hollowed breadloaf, and bake at 350 degrees for 20 minutes. Cool and wrap for travel. You can cut it into wedges like a cake.


This also tastes wonderful if you add a bit of garlic when cooking the chicken and white wine instead of vinegar.





Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 19:34:40 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OK, this is weird ...

To: "Christiane" <christianetrue at earthlink.net>, "Cooks within the

        SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


I wonder how old this recipe is.  There is a calzone recipe in Martino in

which he suggests a filling of almond paste, but the phrasing leaves open

the possibility of other fillings.  The combination of ingredients make me

think this might be Renaissance or even Medieval in origin.


The cherry jam called for is not necessarily sweet.  It might be sour or

tart depending on the cherries used.




<<< I was poking around on one of those "Itanglish" Websites that give you

details about festivals and events off the beaten tourist track in Italy

and found a recipe for onion calzones from Puglia.


The filling was fried onions, black olives, sugar, sultanas, and ...

A spoonful of cherry jam.


I'm half-tempted to try this out. The combination of sweet and savory

flavors is intriguing.


Gianotta  >>>



Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 21:10:22 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Recipe for OK, this is weird ...

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


I just googled onion calzones from Puglia and found this



Onion Calzone


A well made calzone is a meal in itself and comes as close to a Cornish

pastie as we have found in Italy.




For the pasta: 500 gr flour, 50 gr sugar, 100 gr extra virgin olive oil,

150 gr white wine, 1 spoon of fine salt. For the filling: 500gr onions

or leeks, black olives, sultanas, cherry jam.


making it


Mix all the pasta ingredients together and work well until a decent

dough has been formed.


Divide the dough into two parts and with one half form a classic calzone

shape onto which the filling should be placed.


The onions or leeks for the filling should first be lightly fried in

olive oil and salt.


To them 50gr sugar should be added as well as the olives (without the

stones), the sultanas (softened up with warm water) and a spoonful of

jam pasted over the onions.


Then close the calzone with the other half of the pasta or pastry and

seal the edges with egg yolk beaten with sugar.


Cook in the oven at 180? for around 25/30 minutes.





Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 21:20:59 -0700

From: Dragon <dragon at crimson-dragon.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Recipe for OK, this is weird ...

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


Johnna Holloway did speak thusly:

I just googled onion calzones from Puglia and found this



Onion Calzone



---------------- End original message. ---------------------


Interesting, it seems that it would be a lot

sweeter than I had thought. While probably not

dessert sweet, it is definitely not exactly a savory item either.


I also find it interesting that it says to

lightly fry the onions, I would cook them

considerably longer over low heat to caramelize

them. Though if you use leeks, you definitely do

not want to do that as they get bitter when they

brown instead of sweet like an onion.


Other than those two things, it sounds almost as I had envisioned it.





Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 21:27:33 -0700 (PDT)

From: Maria Buchanan <scarlettmb at sbcglobal.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Recipe for OK, this is weird ...

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


I'm assuming that's 180 C.  





Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 07:24:35 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Recipe for OK, this is weird ...

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


<<< I'm assuming that's 180 C.


Maria >>>


That is a curious temperature, 356 F.  I would have expected 200 C to 260 C

(400-500 F) with 215 C (425 F) or 230 C (450 F) being the most common.





Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 09:47:01 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Recipe for OK, this is weird ...

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


I did some more searching and came across these mentions:


http://www.cooking.com/recipes/static/recipe1476.htm calls for 475

degrees F


Supposed to be a recipe in Nancy Harmon Jenkins Flavors of Puglia.


I did check and Culinaria Italy doesn't mention it.





Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 10:34:02 -0400 (GMT-04:00)

From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OK, this is weird ...

To: Terry Decker <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>,  Cooks within the SCA

        <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


<<< I wonder how old this recipe is.  There is a calzone recipe in Martino in

which he suggests a filling of almond paste, but the phrasing leaves open

the possibility of other fillings.  The combination of ingredients make me

think this might be Renaissance or even Medieval in origin.


The cherry jam called for is not necessarily sweet.  It might be sour or

tart depending on the cherries used.


Bear >>>


It very well could be Renaissance or medieval in origin. That's the problem with these regional recipes; they're completely undocumented. As far as the jam goes, I'm with you in thinking it could be a sour cherry jam. The only local Puglian jam recipe I have been able to find so far has sugar, cinnamon, and sherry in it, but that's only how that particular cook does it, and sour cherry jam is available commercially there.




<the end>

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