ME-dance-msg - 5/13/08
Middle Eastern dance, "bellydancing". Sources for Medieval Middle Eastern dancing.
NOTE: See also the files: dance-msg, dance-par-art, fd-Mid-East-msg, ME-feasts-msg, fd-Turkey-msg, jewelry-msg, drums-msg, instruments-msg.
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Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: hashiri at aol.com (Hashiri)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Documentation on "belly" dance?
Date: 18 Feb 1996 14:12:38 -0500
Greetings!
I myself have attempted to do historical research on the dance. There is
very little out there. Most of the books I have found agree that belly
dancing has been around for 1000s of years and in many different cultures,
but there is little to no documentation before the 17th century. The best
book I found was by Wendy Buonaventura: Belly Dancing - The Serpant and
the Sphinx, 1983, Virago Press Limited (London). She had the best
research into pre 17th century dance.
Hope this helps!
Christiana Ivarrsdottir, mka Christine Wilson
aka Hashiri
Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra
From: hashiri at aol.com (Hashiri)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Documentation on "belly" dance?
Date: 21 Feb 1996 09:38:29 -0500
I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with the assertion that only
prostitutes danced with body parts exposed. Belly dance has many forms
from many cultures, with different mores.
While many people point out that the Ghwazee dancers wore dresses that
covered from neck to ankle, and that this is a 'correct' or 'authentic'
style of dress, everything I've read about the Ghwazee dancers says that
when they danced, they would unbutton the dresses to the navel and dance
bare-breasted. Granted, this practice was documented in the 1700s, but
this is the time period from which most of the research availible comes
from.
I think it all depends on how far back your dance persona goes, and what
educated guesses you can make from the little information out there.
So I guess what I'm saying is keep an open mind, have fun, and live happy!
:)
Christiana Ivarrsdottir, mka Christine Wilson
aka Hashiri
Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra
From: aceia at onr.com (Robin Gammon)
To: bryn-gwlad at eden.com
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 09:02:54 +0100
Subject: Re: Revel
Sounds like it could be fun....
Could we dancer types request a limit on how many drummers drum at one time
(not more than 5- it gets too loud and too confusing about who is lead
drum)? We would also like to encourage drummers to include a little
variation in their rythems and try and be aware of the dancer. If the
dancer speeds up then you speed up. If the dancer slows down then you slow
down. If the dancer looks tired then please find an ending and STOP!
Please don't take this as rude. Drumming is an art, I agree. However,
trance dancing is very different from middle-eastern dancing. As a dancer
I tire too quickly and get bored when there is only one unchanging rythem
to dance to. Remember- you are drumming for the dancer, the dancer is not
dancing to you.
Robin Anderson of Ross
Alternate Personna: Roshan (dancing girl of Conor Sigmundson)
Ex-officer 2 years running of ABA and student of Jeanette, Nisaba and Elmaazah.
From: DDFr at Best.com (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 11:21:50 -0800
Organization: School of Law, Santa Clara University
> I have drummed for the past few years for belly dancers. is there any
> evidence of SCA Period Belly Dancing?
>
> Baron Achbar Ibn Ali
> Achbar at worldbet.att.net
So far as I can tell, by asking lots of questions over the years of people
who claimed to have such evidence, there is evidence that dancing was being
done by women for entertainment in the Islamic world (although references
in the literature to singing girls seem much more common). There is no
material (at least that I have been able to locate) from which you can
figure out what they were doing in any detail--i.e. nothing sufficient to
reconstruct a dance. It is rather as if we knew that medieval people had
feasts, but had no recipes or menus.
The issue gets confused by the fact that people in the dance community use
"authentic" to mean "what is being done now, or what was being done
recently, among people where such a dance is a tradition." That is a
perfectly legitimate way of using the term, but it does not tell us whether
the same things were being done by those people four hundred years ago.
Two exceptions:
1. There is a modern Turkish book, which has been translated, that
describes from (I believe) a period source, a dance. But it is not what we
think of as belly dancing--it sounds more like a masque.
2. A friend in the society who I consider reliable tells me he has a
description of a sword dance, from period, which involves a blindfolded man
with a sword striking out "at" his female partner, who avoids the blows. As
best I remember, he does not have steps for it--just the description.
David/Cariadoc
From: dani at telerama.lm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Date: 20 Oct 1996 15:06:27 -0400
Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PA USA
Baron Achbar Ibn Ali <kuba at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>is there any evidence of SCA Period Belly Dancing?
No.
And, having said that, let me hedge and elaborate. Establishing a
negative is always an unsatisfactory business, so I'm not going to
say that we can 'prove' that what's done in the SCA as belly dancing
wasn't done in period. I will say that if anyone has evidence *for*
its being done in period, it's a well-kept secret.
For a number of years now, I've been asking Middle Eastern dancers
about this, and the usual answer is of the form "I don't personally
have documentation, but so-and-so has researched the topic, and if
you ask her, *she'll* tell you." Talking to so-and-so generally
gets you an answer of the form "Here are the names of a couple of
books on Belly Dancing Throught the Ages, but if you want more detailed
information, you should talk to such-and-such." If you follow that chain
of references to its end, you generally wind up talking to someone who
is knowledgeable, has done extensive research, and has left behind a
trail of students who don't understand the limitations of that research.
What the documentation that I've seen and that I've heard described
comes to is that we know that Middle-Eastern dance was done in period.
We are fairly sure that it was a style of dance we would recognize as
Middle Eastern dance, and that it included moves similar or identical
to relatively modern ones.
This is roughly on a par with stating that we know that European
dance was done in period, that it was a style of dance we would
recognize as European (as opposed to, say, Middle Eastern, or Oriental),
and that it included steps similar or identical to steps found in some
relatively modern European dances.
The specific dances or dance styles presented in the SCA as Middle
Eastern dance cannot be documented earlier than the nineteenth
century, though they clearly have earlier roots.
AFAIK. I'd be pleased to be proven wrong.
Note, this isn't to say that belly dancing has no place in the SCA.
Rather, it has about the same place as 'Korobushka', as a modern
artifact that has become part of the SCA culture.
-- Dani
From: ejpiii at delphi.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 96 22:50:04 -0500
Katherine Crowe <kuba at worldnet.att.net> writes:
>I have drummed for the past few years for belly dancers. is there any
>evidence of SCA Period Belly Dancing?
Greetings from Eddward,
I have seen close up photos of a bas that depict a celebration of some sort.
I was interested in it because it shows a young girl juggling 12 objects.
At the time I was studying juggling, so the rest of the picture was kind of
ignored. However, it did show what appeared to be dancers, wearing tight
enough fitting clothes that they could be called 'belly dance' like. I'm
not trying to establish provenance here, and am certainly not qualified to,
but it should interest you to note that to the best of my recollection this
was supposed to be an egyptian carving. I can't recall from which era, but
the whole point was to show me how 'old' juggling was. So we have at least
an interesting tidbit from the right area, but literally thousands of years
early! I will try to find this refence, but it was 20 years ago, and several
professional changes, so it may not be easy.
Eddward.
From: polearmed <polearmed at worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 23:01:48 -0400
Organization: Raleigh, NC
Asalaam alia qum!
Although I cannot locate my source, now(isn't that how it works everytime), I do recall an article with cites posted to soc.culture.islam that dealt with this very question.
While there is little or no documentation for the dances itself, there is a local law that was recorded during the advance of Islam.
It seems as though a Caliph, with the intent of "cleaning up his streets" in his
subjection to Allah, made it a law that all dancing girls were to be clothed while dancing. Knowing that laws can be interpreted a number of ways, even in the 8th century, made specifications for the clothing they were allowed to wear while dancing for entertainment. The shoulders and breasts were to be covered, along with the navel. The hips to the ankles must also be covered(what a decadent period we live in today).
In literation, the women covered their shoulders and breasts and legs to ankles, and began wearing "jewels" to "cover" their navel. With this the only bear skin being shown, the belly, the dances eventually acentuated those parts of women's most wonderful physique.
Without this blessed occurance, you may have never seen the shimmy;)
Falcone
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Donald Wagner Falcone al Rasool ibn Muhajir
Raleigh, NC Barony of Windmasters' Hill
Knowledge Engineer - AT&T Kingdom of Atlantia
dswagner at attmail.com polearmed at worldnet.att.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: whymzee at aol.com (Whymzee)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Date: 21 Oct 1996 09:02:32 -0400
: Baron Achbar Ibn Ali
: Achbar at worldbet.att.net
: kuba at worldnet.att.net
Unto Baron Achbar, does Avril Boulle send greetings;
Evidence of period SCA belly dancing ....
"Belly dancing", from the French danse du ventre (circa 18th or 19th C.),
usually refers to the arabic raks sharqi, which is the oriental form of
the dance, popularly seen in night clubs and restaurants. In the middle
east "the dance" has a history of at least about 5,000 years. While there
are some traditional dances performed in a folkloric style (an example -
the shamadan, or candelabra dance - a balancing dance with 19th century
roots) the dance is not a dance that tells a story or is fixed in style
as some pacific or Indian dances might be. The tradition in the dance is
one of emotional interaction with the music (which makes it a personal
interpretation) using isolated movements that are natural to the human
body (as opposed to the grandly forced, seemingly impossible movements of
ballet and such). There are typical movements, gestures, postures,
isolations that are common to the dance, but they would be representative
of a cultural body language, than fixed, required steps in a dance. There
are class of movements that would be less commonly used as well (leaps,
high kick, splits, severe, hard, power movements.) Although the presence
of dancers is documentable, (through records of ancient contract
negotiations) the notation of dance is not,and the dance is highly
mutable. The tradition of playing finger cymbals would be that old and
older. The folk tradition of dancing with a cane, in imitation of the
village shepards might be. Dancing with a veil, as belly dancers do
today, has American roots, with dancer like Isadora Duncan, Ruth St Denis
and a whole passel of "Little Egypts" and "Salomes" that cropped up after
1893, but undoubtedly somebody picked up a cloth somewhere and did
something with it in period. Dance has existed throughout millenia in the
middle east for both men and women. It's reason for being is a
celebration of joy, and its purpose is to delight, however that may
translate through time.
Avril
whymzee at aol.com
(mundanely, performer, teacher, lecturer, archivist for Arabesque
magazine)
From: msaroff at moose.erie.net (Matthew Saroff)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Date: 21 Oct 1996 16:25:40 GMT
Organization: ErieNet
dani at telerama.lm.com wrote:
: Baron Achbar Ibn Ali <kuba at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
: >is there any evidence of SCA Period Belly Dancing?
: No.
YES. Specifically, my wife has a tri-lingual (English, Russian,
and Uzbek) book which has plates from an Uzbek museum where an artist
illustrates one of their legends (you'd have to write her at
sindara at pobox.com) for more details. There are paintings of women dancing
in poses that are identical to those in traditional belly dancing. I may
be wrong as to the book, as I she has quite a few, and I am not touching
her library until she is through preparing for Laurel Prize down here in
Ansteorra, I value my life. I believe that the paintings are c 1500.
Please note that this is NOT cabaret (the "I Dream of Jeanie"
costume). The dancer is wearing a veil and the only skin that one sees
is eyes and finger-tips.
Seeing as how notation for coreography is a little more than 100
years old, that will be the best that you can find. It is a picture of a
woman dancing for an audience in poseses essentially identical to those
used now.
BTW, my wife does not belly dance, she got it for the garb
pictures (which are exquisite).
--
-- Matthew Saroff| Standard Disclaimer: Not only do I speak for
_____ | No one else, I don't even Speak for me. All my
/ o o \ | personalities and the spirits that I channel
______|_____|_____| disavow all knowledge of my activities. ;-)
uuu U uuu |
From: JR Lacey <jrlacey at slic.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 17:29:12 -0500
Organization: St. Lawrence Internet Connection
from Gaia Wildmane:
excellent reference book, "Serpent of the Nile", by Wendy Buonaventura.
Period art showing dancers, a lot of them Persian. You can jump from
there to other sources. Absolutely, belly dancing is period. The cabaret
costume was an invention of about 1920 or thereabouts. I'm questing for
contacts. Let me know if you come across anything interesting. Good
hunting.
From: Lord Wolfger Silberbr <mfoster1 at voyager.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 05:05:37 -0700
Organization: proto-incipient Shire of Altenberg
Katherine Crowe wrote:
> I have drummed for the past few years for belly dancers. is there any
> evidence of SCA Period Belly Dancing?
Check out Compleat Anachronist #70 "The World's Oldest Dance; The
Origins of Belly Dancing". I haven't read it myself (no interest), but
that should answer what questions you have.
--
-Mike Foster Lord Wolfger Silberbaer
mfoster1 at voyager.net GKMIT for the mythical Shire of Altenberg
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: lindahl at deshaw.com (Greg Lindahl)
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Organization: D. E. Shaw & Co.
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 00:37:38 GMT
Lord Wolfger Silberbr <mfoster1 at voyager.net> wrote:
>Check out Compleat Anachronist #70 "The World's Oldest Dance; The
>Origins of Belly Dancing". I haven't read it myself (no interest), but
>that should answer what questions you have.
The author has graciously made this document available on the net; it
is at:
ftp://nic.funet.fi/pub/culture/music/middle-eastern/dance/belly-dance-FAQ
It doen't answer all my questions, but I always have more than a
single document can answer.
Gregory Blount
From: miviv at aol.com (MiViv)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Date: 23 Oct 1996 01:49:22 -0400
I thought the questioner was looking for information on a documentable,
in-period dance connected with what is being referred to as belly dance,
not a justification that it existed, or a discussion on what to wear.
Belly dance is a post period, 19th century phrase. What we are discussing
here is neither Uzbekian, nor Persian dance, both of which are also
ancient (and roughly from the region, as opposed to Europe or Japan) and
have more stylized movements.
What you will find in the SCA is the achievement of recreating the
ambiance and tradition of the dance. You can see both a more folkloric
style, and a more urban style (such as would be the entertainment at a
court or other major celebration event.
You will not find a documented source in period for the particular dances
shown. It was not the tradition of this dance to reproduce another's
interpretation of the music over and over. You will see the passion, and
the softness and the spice of the dance, the tradition of celebration of a
woman moving naturally as women do, interwoven with the pulse of the drum
and the songs of the various instruments.
At this past Pennsic, Mistress Farasha and I (representing the Middle