ME-dance-msg - 5/13/08
Middle Eastern dance, "bellydancing". Sources for Medieval Middle Eastern dancing.
NOTE: See also the files: dance-msg, dance-par-art, fd-Mid-East-msg, ME-feasts-msg, fd-Turkey-msg, jewelry-msg, drums-msg, instruments-msg.
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From: hashiri at aol.com (Hashiri)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Documentation on "belly" dance?
Date: 18 Feb 1996 14:12:38 -0500
Greetings!
I myself have attempted to do historical research on the dance. There is
very little out there. Most of the books I have found agree that belly
dancing has been around for 1000s of years and in many different cultures,
but there is little to no documentation before the 17th century. The best
book I found was by Wendy Buonaventura: Belly Dancing - The Serpant and
the Sphinx, 1983, Virago Press Limited (London). She had the best
research into pre 17th century dance.
Hope this helps!
Christiana Ivarrsdottir, mka Christine Wilson
aka Hashiri
Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra
From: hashiri at aol.com (Hashiri)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Documentation on "belly" dance?
Date: 21 Feb 1996 09:38:29 -0500
I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with the assertion that only
prostitutes danced with body parts exposed. Belly dance has many forms
from many cultures, with different mores.
While many people point out that the Ghwazee dancers wore dresses that
covered from neck to ankle, and that this is a 'correct' or 'authentic'
style of dress, everything I've read about the Ghwazee dancers says that
when they danced, they would unbutton the dresses to the navel and dance
bare-breasted. Granted, this practice was documented in the 1700s, but
this is the time period from which most of the research availible comes
from.
I think it all depends on how far back your dance persona goes, and what
educated guesses you can make from the little information out there.
So I guess what I'm saying is keep an open mind, have fun, and live happy!
:)
Christiana Ivarrsdottir, mka Christine Wilson
aka Hashiri
Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra
From: aceia at onr.com (Robin Gammon)
To: bryn-gwlad at eden.com
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 09:02:54 +0100
Subject: Re: Revel
Sounds like it could be fun....
Could we dancer types request a limit on how many drummers drum at one time
(not more than 5- it gets too loud and too confusing about who is lead
drum)? We would also like to encourage drummers to include a little
variation in their rythems and try and be aware of the dancer. If the
dancer speeds up then you speed up. If the dancer slows down then you slow
down. If the dancer looks tired then please find an ending and STOP!
Please don't take this as rude. Drumming is an art, I agree. However,
trance dancing is very different from middle-eastern dancing. As a dancer
I tire too quickly and get bored when there is only one unchanging rythem
to dance to. Remember- you are drumming for the dancer, the dancer is not
dancing to you.
Robin Anderson of Ross
Alternate Personna: Roshan (dancing girl of Conor Sigmundson)
Ex-officer 2 years running of ABA and student of Jeanette, Nisaba and Elmaazah.
From: DDFr at Best.com (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 11:21:50 -0800
Organization: School of Law, Santa Clara University
> I have drummed for the past few years for belly dancers. is there any
> evidence of SCA Period Belly Dancing?
>
> Baron Achbar Ibn Ali
> Achbar at worldbet.att.net
So far as I can tell, by asking lots of questions over the years of people
who claimed to have such evidence, there is evidence that dancing was being
done by women for entertainment in the Islamic world (although references
in the literature to singing girls seem much more common). There is no
material (at least that I have been able to locate) from which you can
figure out what they were doing in any detail--i.e. nothing sufficient to
reconstruct a dance. It is rather as if we knew that medieval people had
feasts, but had no recipes or menus.
The issue gets confused by the fact that people in the dance community use
"authentic" to mean "what is being done now, or what was being done
recently, among people where such a dance is a tradition." That is a
perfectly legitimate way of using the term, but it does not tell us whether
the same things were being done by those people four hundred years ago.
Two exceptions:
1. There is a modern Turkish book, which has been translated, that
describes from (I believe) a period source, a dance. But it is not what we
think of as belly dancing--it sounds more like a masque.
2. A friend in the society who I consider reliable tells me he has a
description of a sword dance, from period, which involves a blindfolded man
with a sword striking out "at" his female partner, who avoids the blows. As
best I remember, he does not have steps for it--just the description.
David/Cariadoc
From: dani at telerama.lm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Date: 20 Oct 1996 15:06:27 -0400
Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PA USA
Baron Achbar Ibn Ali <kuba at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>is there any evidence of SCA Period Belly Dancing?
No.
And, having said that, let me hedge and elaborate. Establishing a
negative is always an unsatisfactory business, so I'm not going to
say that we can 'prove' that what's done in the SCA as belly dancing
wasn't done in period. I will say that if anyone has evidence *for*
its being done in period, it's a well-kept secret.
For a number of years now, I've been asking Middle Eastern dancers
about this, and the usual answer is of the form "I don't personally
have documentation, but so-and-so has researched the topic, and if
you ask her, *she'll* tell you." Talking to so-and-so generally
gets you an answer of the form "Here are the names of a couple of
books on Belly Dancing Throught the Ages, but if you want more detailed
information, you should talk to such-and-such." If you follow that chain
of references to its end, you generally wind up talking to someone who
is knowledgeable, has done extensive research, and has left behind a
trail of students who don't understand the limitations of that research.
What the documentation that I've seen and that I've heard described
comes to is that we know that Middle-Eastern dance was done in period.
We are fairly sure that it was a style of dance we would recognize as
Middle Eastern dance, and that it included moves similar or identical
to relatively modern ones.
This is roughly on a par with stating that we know that European
dance was done in period, that it was a style of dance we would
recognize as European (as opposed to, say, Middle Eastern, or Oriental),
and that it included steps similar or identical to steps found in some
relatively modern European dances.
The specific dances or dance styles presented in the SCA as Middle
Eastern dance cannot be documented earlier than the nineteenth
century, though they clearly have earlier roots.
AFAIK. I'd be pleased to be proven wrong.
Note, this isn't to say that belly dancing has no place in the SCA.
Rather, it has about the same place as 'Korobushka', as a modern
artifact that has become part of the SCA culture.
-- Dani
From: ejpiii at delphi.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 96 22:50:04 -0500
Katherine Crowe <kuba at worldnet.att.net> writes:
>I have drummed for the past few years for belly dancers. is there any
>evidence of SCA Period Belly Dancing?
Greetings from Eddward,
I have seen close up photos of a bas that depict a celebration of some sort.
I was interested in it because it shows a young girl juggling 12 objects.
At the time I was studying juggling, so the rest of the picture was kind of
ignored. However, it did show what appeared to be dancers, wearing tight
enough fitting clothes that they could be called 'belly dance' like. I'm
not trying to establish provenance here, and am certainly not qualified to,
but it should interest you to note that to the best of my recollection this
was supposed to be an egyptian carving. I can't recall from which era, but
the whole point was to show me how 'old' juggling was. So we have at least
an interesting tidbit from the right area, but literally thousands of years
early! I will try to find this refence, but it was 20 years ago, and several
professional changes, so it may not be easy.
Eddward.
From: polearmed <polearmed at worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 23:01:48 -0400
Organization: Raleigh, NC
Asalaam alia qum!
Although I cannot locate my source, now(isn't that how it works everytime), I do recall an article with cites posted to soc.culture.islam that dealt with this very question.
While there is little or no documentation for the dances itself, there is a local law that was recorded during the advance of Islam.
It seems as though a Caliph, with the intent of "cleaning up his streets" in his
subjection to Allah, made it a law that all dancing girls were to be clothed while dancing. Knowing that laws can be interpreted a number of ways, even in the 8th century, made specifications for the clothing they were allowed to wear while dancing for entertainment. The shoulders and breasts were to be covered, along with the navel. The hips to the ankles must also be covered(what a decadent period we live in today).
In literation, the women covered their shoulders and breasts and legs to ankles, and began wearing "jewels" to "cover" their navel. With this the only bear skin being shown, the belly, the dances eventually acentuated those parts of women's most wonderful physique.
Without this blessed occurance, you may have never seen the shimmy;)
Falcone
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Donald Wagner Falcone al Rasool ibn Muhajir
Raleigh, NC Barony of Windmasters' Hill
Knowledge Engineer - AT&T Kingdom of Atlantia
dswagner at attmail.com polearmed at worldnet.att.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: whymzee at aol.com (Whymzee)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Date: 21 Oct 1996 09:02:32 -0400
: Baron Achbar Ibn Ali
: Achbar at worldbet.att.net
: kuba at worldnet.att.net
Unto Baron Achbar, does Avril Boulle send greetings;
Evidence of period SCA belly dancing ....
"Belly dancing", from the French danse du ventre (circa 18th or 19th C.),
usually refers to the arabic raks sharqi, which is the oriental form of
the dance, popularly seen in night clubs and restaurants. In the middle
east "the dance" has a history of at least about 5,000 years. While there
are some traditional dances performed in a folkloric style (an example -
the shamadan, or candelabra dance - a balancing dance with 19th century
roots) the dance is not a dance that tells a story or is fixed in style
as some pacific or Indian dances might be. The tradition in the dance is
one of emotional interaction with the music (which makes it a personal
interpretation) using isolated movements that are natural to the human
body (as opposed to the grandly forced, seemingly impossible movements of
ballet and such). There are typical movements, gestures, postures,
isolations that are common to the dance, but they would be representative
of a cultural body language, than fixed, required steps in a dance. There
are class of movements that would be less commonly used as well (leaps,
high kick, splits, severe, hard, power movements.) Although the presence
of dancers is documentable, (through records of ancient contract
negotiations) the notation of dance is not,and the dance is highly
mutable. The tradition of playing finger cymbals would be that old and
older. The folk tradition of dancing with a cane, in imitation of the
village shepards might be. Dancing with a veil, as belly dancers do
today, has American roots, with dancer like Isadora Duncan, Ruth St Denis
and a whole passel of "Little Egypts" and "Salomes" that cropped up after
1893, but undoubtedly somebody picked up a cloth somewhere and did
something with it in period. Dance has existed throughout millenia in the
middle east for both men and women. It's reason for being is a
celebration of joy, and its purpose is to delight, however that may
translate through time.
Avril
whymzee at aol.com
(mundanely, performer, teacher, lecturer, archivist for Arabesque
magazine)
From: msaroff at moose.erie.net (Matthew Saroff)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Date: 21 Oct 1996 16:25:40 GMT
Organization: ErieNet
dani at telerama.lm.com wrote:
: Baron Achbar Ibn Ali <kuba at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
: >is there any evidence of SCA Period Belly Dancing?
: No.
YES. Specifically, my wife has a tri-lingual (English, Russian,
and Uzbek) book which has plates from an Uzbek museum where an artist
illustrates one of their legends (you'd have to write her at
sindara at pobox.com) for more details. There are paintings of women dancing
in poses that are identical to those in traditional belly dancing. I may
be wrong as to the book, as I she has quite a few, and I am not touching
her library until she is through preparing for Laurel Prize down here in
Ansteorra, I value my life. I believe that the paintings are c 1500.
Please note that this is NOT cabaret (the "I Dream of Jeanie"
costume). The dancer is wearing a veil and the only skin that one sees
is eyes and finger-tips.
Seeing as how notation for coreography is a little more than 100
years old, that will be the best that you can find. It is a picture of a
woman dancing for an audience in poseses essentially identical to those
used now.
BTW, my wife does not belly dance, she got it for the garb
pictures (which are exquisite).
--
-- Matthew Saroff| Standard Disclaimer: Not only do I speak for
_____ | No one else, I don't even Speak for me. All my
/ o o \ | personalities and the spirits that I channel
______|_____|_____| disavow all knowledge of my activities. ;-)
uuu U uuu |
From: JR Lacey <jrlacey at slic.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 17:29:12 -0500
Organization: St. Lawrence Internet Connection
from Gaia Wildmane:
excellent reference book, "Serpent of the Nile", by Wendy Buonaventura.
Period art showing dancers, a lot of them Persian. You can jump from
there to other sources. Absolutely, belly dancing is period. The cabaret
costume was an invention of about 1920 or thereabouts. I'm questing for
contacts. Let me know if you come across anything interesting. Good
hunting.
From: Lord Wolfger SilberbŠr <mfoster1 at voyager.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 05:05:37 -0700
Organization: proto-incipient Shire of Altenberg
Katherine Crowe wrote:
> I have drummed for the past few years for belly dancers. is there any
> evidence of SCA Period Belly Dancing?
Check out Compleat Anachronist #70 "The World's Oldest Dance; The
Origins of Belly Dancing". I haven't read it myself (no interest), but
that should answer what questions you have.
--
-Mike Foster Lord Wolfger Silberbaer
mfoster1 at voyager.net GKMIT for the mythical Shire of Altenberg
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: lindahl at deshaw.com (Greg Lindahl)
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Organization: D. E. Shaw & Co.
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 00:37:38 GMT
Lord Wolfger SilberbŠr <mfoster1 at voyager.net> wrote:
>Check out Compleat Anachronist #70 "The World's Oldest Dance; The
>Origins of Belly Dancing". I haven't read it myself (no interest), but
>that should answer what questions you have.
The author has graciously made this document available on the net; it
is at:
ftp://nic.funet.fi/pub/culture/music/middle-eastern/dance/belly-dance-FAQ
It doen't answer all my questions, but I always have more than a
single document can answer.
Gregory Blount
From: miviv at aol.com (MiViv)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Date: 23 Oct 1996 01:49:22 -0400
I thought the questioner was looking for information on a documentable,
in-period dance connected with what is being referred to as belly dance,
not a justification that it existed, or a discussion on what to wear.
Belly dance is a post period, 19th century phrase. What we are discussing
here is neither Uzbekian, nor Persian dance, both of which are also
ancient (and roughly from the region, as opposed to Europe or Japan) and
have more stylized movements.
What you will find in the SCA is the achievement of recreating the
ambiance and tradition of the dance. You can see both a more folkloric
style, and a more urban style (such as would be the entertainment at a
court or other major celebration event.
You will not find a documented source in period for the particular dances
shown. It was not the tradition of this dance to reproduce another's
interpretation of the music over and over. You will see the passion, and
the softness and the spice of the dance, the tradition of celebration of a
woman moving naturally as women do, interwoven with the pulse of the drum
and the songs of the various instruments.
At this past Pennsic, Mistress Farasha and I (representing the Middle
Eastern Dance Cooperative) hosted a two and a half hour exhibition of the
dance, joined by groups and soloists from throughout the Knowne Worlde in
twenty-five separate numbers. The crowd who attended was delighted at the
depth and variety of the dance that was exhibited that day. Since the
dancers all had a great time, and we will be doing it again, I cordially
invite all to attend next year.
(For the dancers reading this who would like to participate, this is an
unofficial, open invitation to let me know that you are interested!)
There is indeed dancing representing the ancient tradition of the middle
east to be seen in the SCA and it is wonderful.
Avril
whymzee at aol.com
From: cromabu at aol.com (CromAbu)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Date: 27 Oct 1996 01:31:53 -0400
There are many referances available. Inter-library loan can aquire from
the University of Utah many sources, including 'Serpent of the Nile". The
costumine in period was what one will find under traditional folk wear. In
period the thought of "lifting up on one's heels" was thought abhorent and
unstylish. Most women only danced at home for their husbands, to allow
ones wife or daughter to dance outside of the household was to equate them
as prostitutes. Public dancing, other than at the trance like dances of
the Dirvishes, was considered advertising of wares, reserved for the
Gawazee who were considered as outcasts generally ( some like the Empress
of Byzantium were exceptions in rising above this lot). The dance of
period was called the Baladee (spelling?) and the style was adapted
through the Moors into Spain by the Gawazee who went there as the
Flamenco. Traditional "Belly Dancing" can still be seen in the dance
styles of North Africa. What most think of as Belly Dancing only emerged
in the later 19th century due to the great Worlds Fairs, and was
originally called the "Hoochie Kootchie Dance", and was a means of
bringing people into the sideshows. Look into sources regarding the
Worlds Fairs for pictures and descriptions of how this evolved. at the
time that sort of dance was not done in the middle east. Little Egypt,
and Hollywood came up with the costume style known as Cabaret in the very
late 1800's and early 1900's (others helped too, but I will need to dig
out my thesis to give you names and specific dates. National Geographic
around 1920's did an article on this with pictures included of actual
traditional Baladee folk costume, which covers all but the eyes and hands
(no gauze) with loose fitting clothes which are in accordance with the
Koran, the shape of the human body is required to be concealed not just
covered. The dance which would be period is best found in sources
regarding Folk Dance, not Belly Dance. Avril's posting is quite correct in
the origins and the magazine he refers to did an excellent article on it
several years back which many sources use for referance. There are many
myths and opinions regarding belly dance, but a few Professionals have
shown a trend in the past few years for a return to the traditional
styles. If you can find a knowledgable Imam to point you in the right
direction, that's how I got started, I called the local Mosque.
Sir fitz
From: Barb at DISTANT-CARAVANS.reno.nv.us (Barbara Morgan)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Date: 29 Oct 1996 06:22:31 GMT
Organization: Great Basin Internet Services, Reno, NV
Several years ago a friend and I put on a Middle Eastern Collegium here in
the West.
Unfortunately I can't find the Mistresses SCA name that taught the class
on Ladies Middle Eastern Garb, however the thing I remember most from her
class was the number of period pictures she had showing belly dancers
performing. (The class included a wonderful slide show.) There where
Middle Eastern minitures of ladies dancing with a tray, decanter and cup,
dancing with a cup and jug or just a jug, dancing with swords on their
heads, dancing with two small peice of cloth in each hands, dancing with
two short sticks in their hands which where probably used like zills
(finger cymbals are used today).
Many of these pictures also showed the ladies in poses that could only be
assocated with some of the current belly dance moves we use today.
Another thing we need to remember is that the tradition of belly dance has
been hand down, mother to daughter for centuries, so some of the moves
that where around in period have probably survived the centuries.
Remember there really is nothing new under the sun.
Amaryllis Alexandrea de Lacey
Barb Morgan, e-mail: Barb at DISTANT-CARAVANS.reno.nv.us
Distant Caravans: http://www.greatbasin.com/~caravan/
From: DDFr at Best.com (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 01:04:39 -0800
Organization: School of Law, Santa Clara University
> Unfortunately I can't find the Mistresses SCA name that taught the class
> on Ladies Middle Eastern Garb, however the thing I remember most from her
> class was the number of period pictures she had showing belly dancers
> performing. (The class included a wonderful slide show.) There where
> Middle Eastern minitures of ladies dancing with a tray, decanter and cup,
> dancing with a cup and jug or just a jug, dancing with swords on their
> heads, dancing with two small peice of cloth in each hands, dancing with
> two short sticks in their hands which where probably used like zills
> (finger cymbals are used today).
What are the sources for the pictures? Given my experience with SCA verbal
tradition, your memory of what you saw and were told several years ago is
not very strong evidence. Nor, I should add, is the fact that the show was
by a "Mistress."
> Another thing we need to remember is that the tradition of belly dance has
> been hand down, mother to daughter for centuries, so some of the moves
> that where around in period have probably survived the centuries.
Verbal tradition in the SCA drastically distorts facts within a decade or
two. Mother to daughter from 1600 to the present, at twenty years to the
generations, is twenty generations. That is enough time for an enormous
amount of change. Look, for example, at the drift in meaning of words, or
the changes in cooking, for both of which we do have evidence.
> Remember there really is nothing new under the sun.
>
> Amaryllis Alexandrea de Lacey
I can't "remember" it because it is not true. There are lots of modern
things, and nineteenth century things, and eighteenth century things, which
we have good reason to believe were not fourteenth or thirteenth or twelfth
century things.
David/Cariadoc
From: salazar at sprynet.com (Kim Salazar)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:09:53 GMT
DDFr at Best.com (David Friedman) wrote:
<snip>
>My impression is that a fair number of people simply take it for granted
>that we are doing "authentic" period dance--because they are confusing the
>folklore sense of "authentic" with the historical sense. Others take it for
>granted that the relevant information does not exist--without showing any
>awareness of what sort of period textual material does exist.
>David/Cariadoc
I agree with his Grace on the extension of the folkloric term
"authentic" to cover "historical." The same blurring of the lines
occurs in needlework research. The folktale origins of Fair Isle and
Aran knitting patterns are prime examples. However at least one
period mention of some sort of exotic dance of Moorish origin does
exist.
Pierre de Bourdeille (Abbe Brentome) wrote a fascinating treatise on
court life and morals in mid 16th century France and Italy. He wrote
pieces of his work between 1560 and his retirement around 1610. He
died in 1614. His work is a mix of eye-witness accounts, scandal,
rumor, innuendo, gossip, retold tales, and quasi-legendary stories.
Even in the 1930's vintage translation I found (with the delicate
parts rendered in the original French or Latin), it was a wonderfully
entertaining and informative read.
In his Second Discourse, in passing Brentome likens the debauchery of
Ancient Rome to (then) modern excesses. The translation of one
passage relating the depravity of the Roman Emperor Galba's fetes to
the goddess Flora states:
"Think of it! Never a fiscaigne ('tis a lascivious dance the loose
women and Moorish slave-girls dance on Sundays at Malta publicly in
the open square), nor saraband did come near these Floralia for
naughtiness; and never a movement or wanton posture or provocative
gesture or lascivious twist and twirl did these Roman dames omit..."
There is no further mention of the fiscaigne - what it looked like,
what the steps were like, what the dancers wore, whether it was
performed anywhere besides Malta, or why it was done on Sunday in
particular.
One note, Brentome was widely traveled and served as a mercenary
military attache for many years before becoming a (nominal) holder of
ecclesiastic office. He was on Malta during this service, and his
mention of the fiscaigne may well be an eye witness account.
Here is the full citation:
de Bourdeille, Pierre (Seigneur Abbe de Brentome). Translated by A.R.
Allinson. "The Lives of Fair and Gallant Ladies." New York:
Liverwright Publishing Co. 1933.
During Brentome's liftime this was published in two volumes: Vie de
Dames Illustres and Vies des Dames Galantes. They were also called
Brentome's Premier and Second Livre des Dames.
The book also includes many stories of noble women taking up arms and
fighting in defense of home and family; and in at least one case
fighting a one-on-one bout to recover her ransomed husband.
Ianthe d'Averoigne
Kim Brody Salazar
salazar at sprynet.com
http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/salazar
From: sindara at pobox.com (Sharon R. Saroff)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Belly Dancing
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 04:45:40 GMT
There are 3 books from Uzbekistan of Period Persian illuminated
manuscripts that I have. Some of the pictures mentioned below are in
these books. I believe that some date back to the 1200's.
SIndara
From: tdewinter at aol.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: authentic bellydance costume
Date: 17 Mar 1997 06:08:18 GMT
zigs66 at aol.com (Zigs66) writes:
> This is not meant to bring up the age-old issue of whether or not
>bellydance is period or authentic or whatever. What I'm interested in
>knowing is what sources dancers who are _trying_ their utmost to be
>authentic are using in order to create their costumes. I've recently
>begun learning middle eastern dance and would like to make a non-cabaret
>costume to wear when I dance.
>
>---Anfelise of Tintagel
Middle Eastern sections of museums usually have some documentation of women's costuming. Los Angeles County Museum of Art (LACMA) has various manuscript pages (15th-16th century usually) that show women. One page last year (they've since removed it) showed a serving girl in a knee length "ghawazee" dress that looked just like the types of dresses I wear for dancing.
There are several books out there that document women's clothing in the Middle East that you should be able to find in the larger book stores. Perhaps someone else reading the Rialto can give you specific titles to look for.
If you would like to privately email your address to me I can send you a (very) rough sketch of a couple of dance outfits.
Countess Tristana de Winter
Caid
tdewinter at aol.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: bq676 at torfree.net (Kristine E. Maitland)
Subject: Re: authentic bellydance costume
Organization: Toronto Free-Net
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:47:45 GMT
Bona dies, tutti!
I see that this issue has come up, yet again. Well, I thought that I
would take the time to add something to the arguement(s).
My cousin Valizan does middle eastern dance as does my friend Viscount
Roak (both of Ealdormere). They were both wondering about the
"peridocity" of MALE middle eastern dancers so I said that I would take a
look about it sometime -- theCA on the topic was interesting but I felt
that it was lacking in some areas.
Well, I was doing my usual browse at Robarts Library (U of T) and just by
fluke I came across this article:
Anthony Shay. "Dance and Non-dance: patterned movement in Iran and
Islam." in _Iranian Studies_, vol 28 #1-2
This is a MUST READ for those studying middle eastern dance. What Shay
notes is the fact that what WE in the west would call dance those in Near
and Central Asia would not, necessarily. For example in our context, we
don't count baton-twirling as dance but in other countries they might
(dance in New Zealand comes to mind).
Shay also says that dance researchers have not, until recently taken this
into account fully. So this is why dance research in this area is
sketchy at best. It might be a good idea for those interested in this
topic to look Prof. Shay up a ask HIM about it.
hope this helps,
Inez Rosanera
Ealdormere
From: DDFr at Best.com (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: authentic bellydance costume
Date: 24 Mar 1997 19:36:10 GMT
Organization: School of Law, Santa Clara University
bq676 at torfree.net (Kristine E. Maitland) wrote:
> My cousin Valizan does middle eastern dance as does my friend Viscount
> Roak (both of Ealdormere). They were both wondering about the
> "peridocity" of MALE middle eastern dancers so I said that I would take a
> look about it sometime -- theCA on the topic was interesting but I felt
> that it was lacking in some areas.
The book _Mohammed's People_ contains a description of the characteristics
of the ideal dancer which looked to me as though it was describing male
dancers; I don't remember the exact cite. A good book, incidentally.
David/Cariadoc
From: Elaine Ragland <er37 at columbia.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: dancing at demos
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 17:52:19 -0500
Organization: Columbia University
On Sat, 22 Mar 1997, Mark S. Harris wrote:
> "James A. Barrow" <redfalcon at thomson.net> wrote:
> >While I love to see a truly talented and well
> > trained dancer in an itty-bitty costume (please excuse my chauvinism), I
> > realize that, talent or ability notwithstanding, while such attire is
> > perfectly acceptable for an event, it has no place at a demo.
>
> Since the cabaret clothing is not authentic, why do you find it
> "perfectly acceptable" for an event?
>
> And yes, I enjoy seeing dancers in "itty-bitty" costumes. I just
> don't find much of what I see being worn as really appropriate for
> SCA use.
Well, I have a picture of a Fatimid manuscript illustration, depicting a
dancer in either tattoos or body paint, and nothing else. Cabaret costume
seems modest in comparison. Then there are the dancing maidens on
Sassanian silver ewers. At first glance, they seem naked. Then, if you
look closely at the detail, you see something around the wrist that is
probably an embroidered cuff, and swirls around the ankles that must be
the hem of the dress. When I made a Sassanian dance costume, I made it
out of the sheerest of silk jacquard. I wear it with a flesh-colored
leotard, and I don't wear it to demos at all, but that's a personal
choice. The ewers make it very clear that no underwear is worn with the
original.
Yes, I agree that everyone should dress with modesty at formal demos,
particularly those at schools or churches. However, the argument that
dancers who show bare flesh are "not appropriate" to SCA events is really
a fallacy. When I see a cabaret costume, I think of the body tattoos and
I'm reassured that the dancer is at least wearing clothes. I did once see
a nude dancer at an SCA event, but that's another story. I don't think
the authorities would approve.
Elaine Ragland
aka Melanie de la Tour
From: Elaine Ragland <er37 at columbia.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Belly Dance Costume (long)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 19:43:12 -0500
Organization: Columbia University
I've had several requests to post the information regarding the Fatimid
illustration of the nude dancer. Therefore: Rachel Milstein,_Islamic
Painting in the Israel Museum_, Jerusalem, 1984. The illustration is the
first one in the book, on p. 20. It's labeled: Courtesan. Drawing on
paper. H. 280, w. 180. Egypt, said to have been found in Fustat (old
Cairo). Fatimid period, 11th century.
The note on the figure reads:
"Nude woman, wearing necklace, bracelets and anklets, and a ribbon around
her head. Tatoos adorn her face, breasts, pubes and especially her arms
and legs. She holds a six-string ud in her right hand and a wine goblet
in her left. Her body lacks proportion - the head and arms are too large
for her short body and thickset stock legs. The head is presented at
three-quarters, the body frontally and the legs in profile with one leg
slightly raised. The figure occupies most of the page surface and the
small remaining space shows a shelf bearing a jug and a wine-bottle with
the vase of flowers underneath.
...Surviving literary and other sources testify to the fact that in the
palaces of Muslim rulers depictions of nude figures decorated the harems
and baths, far from the eye of the general public and the disapproval of
the orthodox.
... As the drawing has no inscription, its precise function cannot
be ascertained. It may have served as a "planet figure," with the girl
representing Venus playing the ud. But her presentation in the nude, her
sensuality, the size of the figure relative to the page and the filling in
of the empty space with objects suggest that this may have been a study
for a fresco, similar in style to frescoes from the Ummayyad and Abbasid
periods, and, in addition, from the Fatimid period in Sicily.
Yet another possibility is that the drawing is a realistic portrait
of a well known period figure whom the artist wished to immortalize."
It also notes that this is not the first time the illustration has been
published. Two other occurrences may be easier to get via interlibrary
loan:
Jones, D. "Notes on a Tattooed Musician: A Drawing of the Fatimid
Period," Art and Archaeology Research Paper, June, 1975.
Rice, D. "A Drawing of the Fatimid Period," Bulletin of the School
of Oriental and African Studies, #2 (1958), pp. 31-39.
For those of you who want information on Sassanian dance costume, I'll
post more another time. Dinner, and other research projects, call.
Elaine Ragland
aka Melanie de la Tour
From: Elaine Ragland <er37 at columbia.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Belly Dance Costume (long)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 14:35:33 -0500
Organization: Columbia University
> The text you quoted said nothing about this figure being a dancer. How did
> you conclude that it is?
>
> Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at panix.com
One foot is poised, as if to begin a dance step. She is also
holding a musical instrument, so she is clearly an entertainer. Shown in
motion, while holding a goblet and an oud, she personifies courtly
entertainment of the time: wine, women, song, and dance.
Also, I don't think she's nude for the purposes of playing music.
I think that she is nude for the purposes of dancing. In the introduction
to the section on Fatimid art in the catalogue, it said that she was
stylistically related to the dancing maidens common in Sassanian art,
usually depicted in transparent gowns.
Fatimid arts were strongly influenced by Persian culture. It's well known
that dance continued to be a courtly entertainment in medieval Persia
(Persian dance was imported to the court of Corduba). I don't know for
certain that Muslim Persian dancers continued to wear little or no
clothing, as their Sassanian ancestors are depicted, but this Fatimid
entertainer seems to indicate that they did.
As I said before, I will post a longer message on depictions of dancers in
Sassanian art, but I'm engaged in another research project right now and
it will have to wait.
Elaine Ragland
aka Melanie de la Tour
From: Jennifer Kautz <jk74 at cornell.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Middle-Eastern & Gypsy Dancers in Period
Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 11:09:03 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
I beg to differ from the good folk who have posted on this, but
as this is *my* area of interest, I thought I'd pass along some
info.
I have photocopies in my hands right now, of 3 different examples
of middle-eastern dancers well within period. Try looking at some
of the Persian Miniatures, or some of the travellers to the
Ottoman Empire's Accounts. Also, there is a tapestry depicting an
encounter of a French Noble's Hunting Party w/the Rom, circa
1440(?), which specifically shows a Rom woman dancing. There is
another picture (from another tapesty) of a Rom woman dancing
from the same era, and then there is a picture of a Rom woman in
black/yellow/red (eastern europe-style) costume, dancing at a
European Court in 1620.
Granted, these are very few examples, but they all have
similarities that are hard to ignore - the use of hand/wrist
scarves & ribbons, the typical "turkish spin" stance that any
modern bellydancer would recognize. No, they weren't common in
period, but they did exist (both "belly"dancers & "gypsy"
dancers). I would be happy to provide book references, but things
are rather chaotic right now (Pennsic e.ta.= 47 hours...), so
email me privately, or feel free to stop in at our camp to chat!
Not all the costumes are revealing (by modern standards), but the
one tapestry specifically pictures the Rom Dancer in a standard
15th century dress, except that there's a slit up the side to her
hip, & her leg is out & exposed (no chemise)!
Come & chat, we'll be camped with our patrons, Clan Campbell/
Ragnesfolke in the bog!:-)
Rum tum bi salama!
From: XSimmons <"jls9" at MSG.TI.COM>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Guedra
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:57:43 -0500
Blodwen wrote:
> I am looking for sources mentioning or illustrating the North African
> dance called Guedra.
Can you do an online search? Excite and Yahoo! both respond to "guedra"
with sources.
Can you access WWW? If so, you might enjoy looking in:
http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~kimberly/medance/culture/guedra.htm
The dance is a blessing dance (trance dance) of a tribe of Berbers
called Kel Tagilmus ("People of the Veil"), known to outsiders as
"Tuaregs." This is a North African group, so it is possible that cross
fertilization of dance styles has occurred between the nomads and the
ancient Egyptians. Of course, we might not expect _total_ consistency
over the last 5,000 years. . . .
It may help to remember that the pyramid-building Egyptians are not the
current inhabitants--the modern Egyptians are supposed to be relative
newcomers to the area, although I don't have specific dates or "target
eras" stored in my brain -- so sorry! ;-)
BTW, this is one of the "topless dance" legend nominees. Alas, when the
rumor trackers went into action, words like "prostitute" began to echo
across the ancient desert sands (as opposed to, say, "tradition" or
"hubba-hubba!" Too bad! ;-\} ) Besides, I would doubt that
all the Berber women who ever lived could outnumber the decent ladies of
only _one_ medieval Islamic cultural center/decent-sized city.
The actual dance features a sitting/standing, veiled woman doing
repetitive motions, especially a characteristic "flicking" gesture and
maybe sharp swings of the head (with beaded braids--owee!), while two
choral groups chant simple religious phrases back and forth. The
phrases reference Allah, ancestors, the king, the trance state, and Ali.
The American Middle Eastern dancer Morocco has done research on this
dance form, as well as others. Whatever I know is probably traceable to
her from one source or another, so I'd like to credit her here for her
efforts in modern tribal dance research.
How old the Guedra is? Dunno. The natives appear to consider it a
spiritual service.
Warm regards, Ly Meara al-Isfahani (more than you _ever_ wanted to know
about. . . .)
Subject: BG - BG- Middle Eastern Dance History
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 14:12:33 MST
From: Aceia at aol.com
To: bryn-gwlad at Ansteorra.ORG
Check out this web site it is great!
http://www.efn.org/~dduncan/bdance/
This next site is specifically on the history of dance
http://www.efn.org/~dduncan/bdance/BDhist0.html
I especially found the information about Egyptian dance costumes interesting,
since many people say that traditional dancers never show their waists.
"Women in the Old Kingdom put on the short men's skirts (i.e. aprons) or
danced completely nude on many occasions because the usual long dress was too
restrictive of movement. Nude dancers wore a belt around the waist which
concealed nothing. Otherwise dancers might wear long or short transparent
garments, sometimes with one breast completely revealed. ...
After the last of the Egyptian kingdoms, there is little or no documentation
on what people wore. But a look at the clothes worn in Egypt today show that
little has changed, except that fabrics are heavier and nudity is no longer
so acceptable."
The page on costuming is REALLY informative depending on what culture your
dancer comes from :
Greek/Roman 'castanet' dancers
Persian, Turkish and Ghawazee
Modern and Ancient Egyptian
Morroccan and Tunisian
Spanish Gypsy
There are makeup and hair tips too!
-Robin
Subject: Re: BG - Middle Eastern Resource
Date: Mon, 11 May 98 19:12:44 MST
From: morganbri at juno.com (Briana Morgan)
To: bryn-gwlad at Ansteorra.ORG
I would like to offer up one of my favorite Middle Eastern resources as
well, in hopes that it will be helpful to anyone interested in the Middle
Ages, Renaissance, Belly Dancing, Ethnic Jewelry, Costuming, and other
wonderful things.
They are called 'Distant Caravans', and if you have a bit of time and
want to check them out, you'll find a full-color online catalog run by
two very wonderful SCA merchants (who also happen to be my parents), from
the Silver Desert region of the West Kingdom. You can find them and
enjoy to your hearts content at: www.distantcaravans.com
They carry a gorgeous collection of period-style Afghani Ethnic Jewelry,
Bells and Coins to create or add to your belly dance jewelry, Zills,
Tassel Scarves, Egyptian Coin and Bead Edged Scarves, Drums, Lanterns and
Lamps, various other wonderful costuming delights, as well as lots of
great links to other related sites.
Hope this is helpful. Enjoy the adventure!
Elysia~
Subject: ANST - RE: Coins for Eastern Dance Costumes
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 20:39:10 MST
From: Gunnora Hallakarva <gunnora at bga.com>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
Thorvald <odin at okom.net> asked:
>I am looking for sources for Eastern Dance supplies specifically
> loose coins. I have been to Chandra's web site but wish to see
> what other sources are available.
I recommend trying South Pacific Wholesale. They are a wholesale jewellry
supplier who mainly carry stuff like semi-precious and glass beads, but also
odds and ends of other stuff.
In their most recent catalog, they had about three or four types of oriental
coins, pierced for hanging. Some had one hole, others had one-and-one,
one-and-three, and one-and-four holes on opposite sides. I don't
recall the price, but I just bought 70 lbs of beads for $83 (which included
the UPS costs)... very affordable.
Those of you who are looking to stock up on ransoms for Lyonnesse, there are
also pre-strung necklaces, including semiprecious gem chips, some beaded
necklaces, Mexican silver abalone-set bracelets, carved stone candle
holders, and lots more stuff that would make good ransoms.
Their contact info is:
South Pacific WholeSale Co.
mailto:sopacvt at aol.com
(800) 338-2162
::GUNNORA::
From: jonwillowpel at juno.com
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 15:33:50 -0500
Subject: Re: ANST - Middle Eastern Dance Resource
I really thank for the post. I have been looking for this for days. This
lady, Robin Friend, has been really helpful to the dancers in Ansteorra
and now she has put out a tape "Dances of Iran". The money from the tape
is going to a study group that works on Persian dance. Dancers have a
hard time documenting their work and this lady's scholarly works are one
of the few places we can go. Everyone please check her stuff out.
Willow
On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:33:28 GMT "Russell Husted" <husted at hotmail.com>
writes:
> here is a post sent to a different list. I realize only a few poeple
> will be interrested but it is a bibliography of middle eastern dance
> refrences.
>
> mahee
>
> Persian, this time. There's a couple, towards the bottom, that seem
> interesting for our purposes -- one on Pre-Islamic Persian dance
> sparks the imagination....
> <http://home.earthlink.net/~rcfriend/robyn21.htm>;
From: Sandra Jakl <kieralady2 at yahoo.com>
Date: July 14, 2004 1:57:31 PM CDT
To: houstondancers at yahoogroups.com, ansteorra at ansteorra.org
Cc: Subject: [Ansteorra] online articles regarding Middle Eastern Dance
Please see these articles for further information on
this topic:
http://www.crosspump.net/tribalbellydance/dancepaper.htm
http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?journal=asim&;itemid=64660
http://www.gildedserpent.com/articles20/jalilahharamslaves.htm
http://www.gildedserpent.com/articles7/kirkemperor.htm
I make no comment regarding these sources. I post them
for possible interest only.
HL Clara von Ulm
(aka) Sayidda al Sheriffa Sana bint Kieran al Kerra
From: Laylia Bellydancing <layliasbellydancing at yahoo.com>
Date: April 2, 2006 3:19:57 AM CDT
To: stefan at florilegium.org
Subject: helpful link for drummers
I liked your site! here is a really great place to pass on to people..
I hope you like it! I use it all the time!
Laylia's School of Belly Dance and Drum
614-312-4252 www.Laylia.com
<the end>