instruments-msg – 3/18/08
Period musical instruments.
NOTE: See also the files: bagpipes-msg, drums-msg, guitar-art, harps-msg, lyres-msg, recorders-msg, trumpets-msg, trumpet-build-art, p-songs-msg, song-sources-msg.
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Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: billmc at microsoft.UUCP (MCJOHN)
Date: 2 Feb 90 22:10:12 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp., Redmond WA
Subject: Re: Spanish gypsies and Flamenco
ag1v+ at andrew.cmu.edu (Esmeralda La Sabia [Andrea B. Gansley-Ortiz]) writes:
> Does anyone know when castinets were invented?
> Or when the guitar came to Spain?
Although the guitar did not attain its present form until the
seventeenth century (well into the baroque), it has antecedents
going back to the twelfth or thirteenth century (at least).
Like the lute, the guitar (or its ancestors) probably came to
Spain with the Moors. To get an idea of what a thirteenth
century guitar may have looked like, you might consult one of
the manuscripts of the _Cantigas de Santa Maria_ collected by
Alfonso X (who was, interestingly, also known as [spelling very
approximate] Alfonso el Sabia).
The Cantigas are a thirteenth century collection of 400 songs
(in Gallician-Portuguese) in praise of the Virgin Mary; before
every tenth cantiga is a picture of instrumentalists. These
illustrations provide a fascinating window on the wide variety
of instruments used in Spain at that time--including plucked
stringboard instruments with bodies of various shapes.
One of the manuscripts is available in facsimile and transcription,
prepared by Higini Angles--I can look up the bibliographical
information if you're interested.
Bill McJohn
From: pro-angmar!slarkin at alphalpha.com (Eliane Esperance)
Date: 26 Dec 90 13:47:07 GMT
Unto the gentles who were discussing portatif organs, greetings! I have
personally never considered these instruments "appropriate" for the SCA.
They are inarguable period, but unless you can find one with wooden pipes
(also period, but not as pretty) they are a) heavy b) expensive c) easily
broken. If I owned one, I would not bring it near an SCA event because I
would be afraid to move it, for fear of damaging the pipes. They are soft
lead, and dent if you *look* at them too hard. They are hard to tune, and
keep in tune for this reason. Unless you are quite rich, bringing an
instument like this to an SCA event is courting disaster.
From: trifid at agora.uucp (Roadster Racewerks)
Date: 4 Sep 91 09:46:10 GMT
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Since Mary Queen of Scots was definitely period, and since a museum has in
its collection the guitar of her lover Riccio (and it looks very much like
any guitar to me, in the photo...) it seems that the guitar must be a period
instrument.
("Mary Queen of Scots" by Antonia Fraser, pg.256, plate 18. Says it is in
the Royal College of Music, London)
Riccio died in 1566, I believe....
Now, whether the guitar was *tuned* the same as now, I don't know. A
question for our scholars of early music...
NicMaoilan
trifid at agora.rain.com
From: shick at europa.asd.contel.COM (Steve Hick)
Date: 3 Sep 91 15:45:15 GMT
Morgan Wolfsinger asks in <1F23845E47FF83E7AC at Gems.VCU.EDU> asks:
*> The Question: Is the guitar a period instrument?
*> I have found one source that says that it is (10-string Spanish and 8-string
*> Italian versions were used pre-1650). Problem: I need more sources!
*> Please, if anyone has any suggestions as to where to look for more data, I
*> would love to have them.
I am using my favorite source to look create a bibliography for her to ILL,
but I sometimes have probelms going over to bitnet, so in answer to her question,
I offer a citation I found:
33. DISSERTATION
Marcus, Robert S.
The use of the five-course guitar as a continuo instrument as described
in Spanish treatises: 1596-1764 / by Robert S. Marcus. 1978.
Seems period.
Strykar
From:Ioseph
Re: Guitar research
Date: 8 Sep 91 10:36:28
RR>From: trifid at agora.uucp (Roadster Racewerks)
RR>
RR>Since Mary Queen of Scots was definitely period, and since a
RR>museum has in
RR>its collection the guitar of her lover Riccio (and it looks very
RR>much like
RR>any guitar to me, in the photo...) it seems that the guitar must
RR>be a period
RR>instrument.
RR>("Mary Queen of Scots" by Antonia Fraser, pg.256, plate 18. Says
RR>it is in
RR>the Royal College of Music, London)
Ah....sort of! See my upcoming article in TI....what you have there
(I have the book) is a "five-course guitar," i.e. five -pairs- of gut
strings, tuned in any number of ways.....the modern "classical" guitar, six single nylon or gut strings is WAY out of period, being developed by Torres in about 1844 CE, while the American "steel-string" is later yet. This is a -very- complex question, but, like I said, see the upcoming TI article.
-Ioseph of Locksley
still grumpy
From: DAVID at bmeucl.medcor.mcgill.ca
Date: 6 Sep 91 19:17:00 GMT
Unto the gentles gathering at the railto does Dafydd y Peireannydd send his
greetings.
The question of Guitar and Lute tunings surfaced a few digests ago. The lute
tuning description
"tune the highest string until it almost breaks"
comes from Thomas Robinson's "A Schoole of Musicke", 1603, which was the first
published lute tutor. My experience with gut strings, leads me to believe
that this is in fact very close to what we now call the "Renaissance G" tuning.
(GCFADG) for the six highest pitched courses, lowest to highest.
(My experience has been that a gut top course will sometimes break when
tuned up to a G, -- sometimes before). This tuning is 3 frets higher than
the modern 6-string Guitar (EADGBE), except that the 3rd string is
a semitone flater on the lute than on the Guitar.
The Spanish Vilhuella, which seems to be an ancestor to the Guitar, was tuned in
Lute tuning, so some close variant on modern Guitar tuning should be okay.
What nobody has mentioned thus far, is technique. While the Guitar is, it seems
documentable back to at least the end of the 16'th century, how was it played?
I have seen Baroque Guitarists play, and they use a right hand technique much
like your average lutenist. The strings are plucked with the pads of the
fingers. The fingers stay almost parallel to the strings, which forces the
thumb in behind the rest of the fingers. This is quite a bit different from
the modern classical Guitar "thumb over" posture.
While the Guitar is period, bashing out chords with a flat pick is almost
certainly not. Granted, very early lutenists used a quill, or pick, but
only to pluck single melody lines. When lute parts started including multiple
lines -- effectively chords -- the technique switched to using the fingers.
I've rambled on long enough
Lord Dafydd y Peireannydd
Shire l'Isle du Dragon Dormant
Kingdom of the East
From: Ioseph
Re: Guitar Research
Date: 10 Sep 91 13:16:08
D>From: DAVID at bmeucl.medcor.mcgill.ca
D>tuned up to a G, -- sometimes before). This tuning is 3 frets
D>higher than
D>the modern 6-string Guitar (EADGBE), except that the 3rd string
D>is
D>a semitone flater on the lute than on the Guitar.
There is also evidence that the Lute was tuned to a similar pattern as the guitar (but 3 frets higher, or so, of course) and this was called "new" tuning. I have -several- lute tunings.....once again, see the upcoming article in TI, which will list -all- tunings for all the guitar/mandolin/lute type insttruments (that I found, at least...)
D>What nobody has mentioned thus far, is technique. While the
D>Guitar is, it seems
D>documentable back to at least the end of the 16'th century, how
D>was it played?
D>I have seen Baroque Guitarists play, and they use a right hand
D>technique much
D>like your average lutenist. The strings are plucked with the
D>pads of the
D>fingers. The fingers stay almost parallel to the strings, which
D>forces the
D>thumb in behind the rest of the fingers. This is quite a bit
D>different from
D>the modern classical Guitar "thumb over" posture.
D>
D>While the Guitar is period, bashing out chords with a flat pick
D>is almost
D>certainly not. Granted, very early lutenists used a quill, or
D>pick, but
D>only to pluck single melody lines. When lute parts started including
D>multiple
D>lines -- effectively chords -- the technique switched to using
D>the fingers.
Once again....what -we- call a guitar is -not- period....technique seems to have been either lute-style thumb-under, or plectral monody, OR a combination of plectral monody and arpeggio (a stroke down across the strings with the flatpick.) Note that this was NOT a syncopated strum as is heard in modern "folk" styles, but a straight downwards move with the pick.
-Ioseph of Locksley
Who (grumpily) plays these damn things
From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Date: 22 Oct 91 03:47:28 GMT
Organization: University of Chicago
Everyone knows that the violin is an out of period instrument (this
one was contributed by Elizabeth). In fact it is late period; the
period violins differ in detail from modern ones, but are essentially
the same instrument with the same tuning.
Cariadoc
From: zbang at access.digex.com (Carl P. Zwanzig)
Date: 26 Nov 91 03:34:57 GMT
Organization: No, just look at the garage.
In article <91Nov10.114916ast.9794 at cs.dal.ca> thompson at cs.dal.ca writes:
> Unto the good gentles of the Rialto does Deormod send
> greetings, I have a request for information from a friend who is
> interested in building a Portative Organ, if you have any
> information for me to pass on to my friend please mail it to me as
> I donot get much of a chance to read the Rialto as of late.
>
>=============================================================================
>
> I am looking for information on Portative Organs. I wish to
> build one and am having problems finding primary documentation. I
> have already consulted Theopholous (sp?) and Anon. of Berne as
> well as several texts on the construction of church organs of the
> period, but I have found no references to actual surviving
> specimens of Portatives.
>
THE books to have for organ building are the two volume set _The_Art_of_
Organ_Building_ by George Ashdown Audsley (Dover, of course,
ISBN 0-486-21314-5). Volume I is tonal information and design, volume
II is about the actual construction, including 8 pages just about types
of wood. Volume I is 600 pages, Volume II is over 700. The books were
originaly published in 1905, and have some of the best technical drawings
that I've ever seen. When I purchased them the cover price was US$25 for
the set.
Corwyn O'Domhnaill - Somewhere in Atlantia
Carl Zwanzig - Bowie, Maryland, USA
zbang at digex.com - the end of a wire
Early Guitars
Date: 26 May 92
From: DAVID at bmeucl.medcor.mcgill.ca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Unto those that pause to exchange greetings beneath this bridge, greetings.
A few days ago, a gentle mused about the possible common ancestry of viols
and guitars. _Instruments of the Middle Ages and Renaissance_, David
Monrow writes "The Spanish word *vihuela*, like the Italian *viola*, was a
generic term for all stringed instruments, whether plucked or bowed, and the
different types were distinguished by various qualifications, thus:
*vihuela de arco* for the bowed types
*viheula de pen~ola* (or *de pendola) for the plectrum plucked types
*vihuela de mano* for the finger plucked types"
(*emphasis* == italics) This certainly suggests that there may have been a
common ancestor for the bowed and plucked strings. David Munrow goes on to
say that Spanish called the Lute "vihuela de Flandes". (is that like French
leave?).
As for the use of guitars in period, well, that all depends on how you look at
things. The renaissance guitar was a much smaller, lighter instrument than
either the modern classical or folk guitar. It was strung with either 4 or 5
courses of double strings made of lambs gut. The bass course was usually an
octave pair, unless the bass note was dropped altogether, creating a re-entrant
tuning -- like a modern ukelele (my dog has fleas). (All of this from David
Munrow, as well as a little personal experience playing one once many moons
ago).
Timothy McGee in _Medieval and Renaissance Music; a performers guide_ suggests
two modern alternates to the renaissance guitar/vihuela: a classical guitar
with gut strings and a fairly dry tone, or a baritone ukelele with gut strings.
In terms of typically applied SCA standards for documentation, this is ample
documentation for the use of modern guitars (even Fender Stratocasters for
that matter) at events. On the other hand, if we want to try doing a little
better, perhaps we should at least try to restring our guitars with gut strings,
and play period (or period inspired) music using period techniques.
Dafydd y Peireannydd
who enjoys tuning his lute, and sometimes playing it,
even though it is out of tune.
Subject: Period instruments....
Date: 16 Jun 92
From: fiddler at concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
Beth.Appleton at f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton) writes:
> (this looked like a convenient place to insert this comment...)
>If you're willing to spend non-trivial quantities of money, there is
> (was?) a company called "Lark in the Morning" who sell period
> instruments. I'll go check and see if I still have my old catalog.
> (They don't keep sending them out if you don't order...) I don't
> remember much about prices in general -- they also have "compromise"
> instruments.
> For instance, I was considering buying a cornetto. I was going to
> get the plastic version, rather than the accurate one, because it was
> only (!) $70-80 -- which is fairly cheap for a musical instrument, just
> not for my then pocket-book (and forget the whole subject now!)
> As I remember, they were based somewhere in California, and they
> had a whole 50-some page catalog with lots and lots of unusual
> instruments......
Lark in the Morning
P.O. Box 1176
Mendocino, CA 95460
(707) 964-5569
I get into more trouble every time I see another flyer or new catalog...
From: Syr Jonathon Macnaughton
To: Dana S Emery
Re: Lute/ Cittern kits
Date: 10 Jun 92
DS> The Early Music shop of England markets kits for building various
DS> period instruments: SATB Crumhorns, Hurgy gurdy, 6c Lute, Bowed
DS> Psaltery, 2 rank positve organ, and others. They also have a
DS> subsidiary shop which stocks properly seasoned rough carved necks,
DS> sides, tops, and pegs for those brave enough to essay the
DS> construction of Violas da Gamba, Violins, and Lutes. They also stock
DS> specialty tools for luthiers (lute peg reamers, viola da gamba side
DS> clamps, soundboard thickness calipers...).
DS> The EMS Crumhorn kits are commonly stocked over here, the Early
DS> Music shop of New England (Brookline MA) stocks them, as does Lark
DS> In the morning.
Good gentle, would you be so kind as to post mailing addresses (and
phone numbers if available)? I am interested in constructing several
period stringed instruments, but have an unfortunate shortage of sources
for plans and supplies.
Many thanks in advance.
Syr Jon
From: Joe Bethancourt
To: Sharon Stanfill
Re: lute vs guitar
Date: 12 Jun 92
-=> Sharon Stanfill said to All on 06-08-92 18:17 <=-
SS> From: sharons at juliet.ll.mit.EDU (Sharon Stanfill)
SS> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
SS> Organization: The Internet
SS> Moreach suggests restringing guitars with gut strings. I would not
SS> advise doing this without doing a bit of research first. I don't know
SS> about lutes/guitars, but there are sigificant differences between
SS> nylon/metal/gut strung harps in terms of design - the different
SS> types of strings produce different stresses and require different
SS> levels of tension which strongly affects the construction of the harp.
SS> I suspect the same will be true of guitars.
Quite true, but not as essential here, unless you are putting gut on an
X-braced (steel string) guitar. Then the tension (light) of the gut will not
be enough to adequately stress the soundboard, and you will get a "dead"
sounding instrument.
Of course, putting gut on a fan-braced ("classical") guitar will not alter
the sound at all, but you will be sorry next humid weather, when the strings
fray and break....and gut guitar strings are costly indeed. I use gut on
my arch-lute, but -that one- is in a climate-controlled case and -never- goes
out on rainy days. Stick to nylon. It's the same sound, less expensive, and
lasts longer.
And putting steel strings on a "classical" will get you kindling in short
order.
The same would apply to harps. My Witchers use brass strings, and have VERY
heavy soundboards (typical of Celtic harps) while my Lyon & Healy uses nylon
and has a thin soundboard....to exchange strings on them would give a dead
sound on the Witchers, and kindling on the Lyon & Healy.
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