Stefan's Florilegium

dance-msg

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dance-msg - 6/7/00

SCA and period dancing. Referances. Dance tapes. Dance videos.

NOTE: See also the files: dance-par-art, ME-dance-msg, music-bib, music-msg,
theater-bib, instruments-msg, harps-msg, p-songs-msg, recorders-msg.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that
I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some
messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium.
These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with
seperate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes
extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were
removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I
make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the
individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these
messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this
time. If information is published from these messages, please give
credit to the orignator(s).

Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: Lord Stefan li Rous
RSVE60@email.sps.mot.com stefan@florilegium.org
************************************************************************

From: Gretchen Miller
To: All
Date: 08-Nov-89 04:51pm
Subject: Re: Dance

From: grm+@andrew.cmu.edu (Gretchen Miller)
Date: 7 Nov 89 17:47:33 GMT
Organization: Computing Systems, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Message-ID: <kZJlIpi00Uk68AD28K@andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.sca

Joshua ibm-Eleazar ha-Shalib writes:

> Earl of Salisbury, I believe, was written in the 1920's.

Nope! Earl of Salisbury is definately "period", though the dance that
is done was not specifically choreographed to the music. The following
is from Mabel Dolmetsch's "Dances of England and France 1450 to 1600":

"We will now consider the two English pavans, of which the steps are
noted in the Rawlinson manuscript before alluded to. [Anon., C. 1570.
Rawlinson Manuscript, says the bibliography].

The first of these is a short pavan and therefore combines well with the
music of "The Earl of Salisbury's Pavan", by William Byrd....The
sequence of steps noted in the Raslinson manuscript is as follows : Two
singles and a double forward ; two sideways singles and a reprise (or
retreat) backward."

The vast majority of Pavans done in the SCA, however, are modern
creations. Besides EofS the only two I can think of are Master Newman's
Pavan (which is the other pavan taken from the Rawlinson manuscript) and
The Spanish Pavan (from Arbeau).

Yours,

Margaret MacDubhSidhe
(grm+@andrew.cmu.edu or grm#@andrew.cmu.edu)

From: Tsuki Musume
To: Yves Fortagne
Date: 15-Nov-89 12:02pm
Subject: montarde

Montarde is a bransle from Arbeau, I think, involving a line of four or six
people, alternating gender usually. The steps are eight doubles to the left,
with the person on the left end of the line weaving his/her 8 doubles back
through the line while the line is moving 'towards' him/her. The b part is
each person in line, in turn, does four kicks to turn 360 degrees in place,
with whatever flourishes and whatnot one desires.
Hope this helps.

* Origin: >> The Ophiuchi Hotline << Forward! Into the past! (1:109/508)

From: Mary Knettel
To: All
Date: 17-Nov-89 08:35am
Subject: More on dancing

From: MKNETTEL%KENTVM.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU (Mary Knettel)
Date: 16 Nov 89 21:54:00 GMT
Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism
Message-ID: <8911161735.aa07788@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Someone at the War reported on research into "Road to the Isles" and found
a Scottish dance which choreography closely fits what we call Road to the
Isles
-- called "The Far Northlands" dated 1949. Maybe someone who actually
attended
the Dancemasters meeting (Wed or Thurs evening at the War) can more
specifically document this. Anyway, this was announced for the rest of the
week at the dances at the Barn; and we started referring to the dance as
"The Far Northlands".

Also -- "Strip the Willow" is at least a Scottish country dance, but is done
in sets of 4 couples at the ceidlah's -- which is much more enjoyable,
actually
especially when the couples actually complete the turns in 4 beats!

Just my 2 cents.

Genevieve du Vent Argent, Marche of Gwyntarian, Barony Middle Marches,
MidRealm
Mary Knettel, Kent, Ohio mknettel@kent.vm

From: grm+@andrew.cmu.edu (Gretchen Miller)
Date: 17 Nov 89 00:48:43 GMT
Organization: Computing Systems, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

I believe that the above information was all that was given at the
Dancemasters meeting. "Someone" was Lord Richard Tyler of Swiftwater;
he gives the reference in a pamphlet called "The Rhydderich Hael
Measures" as : The Far Northland (Partners All, Places All, 1949)

Margaret MacDubhSidhe

From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Date: 16 Nov 89 23:44:33 GMT
Organization: Graduate School of Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon,
Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Marguerite de la Souche:
>Also, is there a songbook available of common SCA dances?

There are two collections that come to mind. One is Lord Longwind's
collection. It's printed by Raymond's Quiet Press. If you don't want
to wait till Pennsic, find someone who kept their merchant's catalog
from last Pennsic and get his address. Another is the set of
arrangements put together by Arianna of Wynthrope some years back. It's
never been formally published, but there are a lot of copies floating
around which can be copied. Both of these sources tend to concentrate

on four-part arrangements, with the melody line usually being the
familiar one. In addition, there are *lots* of books containing
arrangements of Playford's dances. (If you can't find anything else,
try English Country Dance collections.) I can't think of any good
sources of SCA dances in tabulature.

>So far I've figured out Hole in the Wall (there's that dance again... ;-)

A nonmodal tune for a modal instrument. Are you playing most of the
dance with chords or drones and then just plucking the middle string to
get the accidental?
-----
Dani of the Seven Wells
haste+@andrew.cmu.edu

From: caa@midgard.Midgard.MN.ORG (Charles A Anderson)
Date: 3 Apr 90 18:06:10 GMT
Organization: The Midgard Realm, St Paul MN
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

I'm sorry I didn't post this earlier but I wanted to verify it first.
Sometime ago, someone requested information on dance manuals and tapes.
Mistress Rosanore has both manuals that she has written, and tapes for
the dances. (by the Jararvellir music guild, where the northshield dance
seminar is being held this weekend.)

Her address is:

Susan Henry
258 S Griggs
St Paul, MN 55105
(612) 699-0714

Write or give her a call during reasonable hours. (before 10pm central)
(she told me I could go ahead and post this)

-Dmitri
--

From: justin@INMET.INMET.COM (Justin du Coeur MKA Mark Waks)
Date: 18 Apr 90 15:32:21 GMT
Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Cuthbert an Alreton writes (among other things):

>Last night during a meeting devoted to rehearsing the demo
>our "dance mistress," who has lots and lots and lots of experience in
>period dance performance but less SCA dance experience, made some
>stylistic comments. The comments were along the lines, "Remember
>these are peasant dances so dance like peasants."

Milord, this isn't a flame, of you *or* your dance mistress, but I want
to put some emphasis here...

English Country dances are *not* peasant dances, dammit!

This is one of the most common mis-conceptions in the Society about
dance, and leads to vast disagreements about proper dance style. The
confusion appears to arise from the name. As far as I've figured, they
were called "Country Dances" because they were mostly danced outside the
Royal Court, among the landed gentry, *not* because they were being
danced by country bumpkins.

If you (using "you" in the sense of all the readers, not Cuthbert (maybe I
should say "y'all"?)) are at all serious about dancing correctly, think
about this. In period, you wouldn't be dancing this in t-tunic and
trousers; rather, both men and ladies are under *tons* of clothing,
and both are probably corsetted to within an inch of their lives. These
dances are the immediate precursors to the Baroque -- think about
dancing them in clothes like those in "Dangerous Liaisons", and you're
getting closer to the right model...

The implications of this misconception are wide. The SCA tends to
produce a lot of very fast English Country dance music, because some
recordings are too slow to feel right. Now consider doing the dances
with a lady in a three-foot-wide hoop, and think about how fast you
want that music playing...

I don't really expect to get people dancing English Country in a
period fashion; plenty of folks have tried and failed before me.
But I *would* like to kill this notion that it's "correct" and
"period" to dance English Country like modern contra -- it simply
isn't the case...

-- Justin du Coeur
Editor, The Letter of Dance
and wandering dancemaster
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Sample listing and review:

_Danses_Populaires_Francaises_et_Anglaises_du_XVIc_Siecle_
Broadside Band with Jeremy Barlow - Harmonia Mundi/HMC 901152

Danses Populaires is nice collection of dance music, and especially
useful as it contains music for several dances from both Arbeau and
Playford. The music is arranged nicely, with variations between the
different repeats of the same dance; this makes each dance sound
pretty and interesting without adding so much as to cause confusion.
Lots of albums will take medieval dance music and twiddle it to be
appealing to modern tastes, which often makes it useless for dance;
this album succeeds in presenting interesting but still very
danceable music. Most of the music is on the sedate, slower side,
including the English country.

In general, we highly recommend this; but there are a few specific
pieces that you might want to use caution with for SCA dance: the
first Tourdion and the second and third Galliard are slow and quiet,
and don't really have the clear syncopated beat that helps keep
dancers in time. We're used to doing the Scottish branle alternating
between the "first" and "second" branles as described in Arbeau, pp.
148-151; this recording has two repeats of the "first" and two of the
"second", which is confusing if your dancers are used to it the other
way around. Finally, the version of Washerwomen's bransle is really
nifty, and the "scolding" parts sound wonderful... but Barlow got a
little carried away with them: Arbeau has four "scolding" singles (p.
156), but this version has 8 the first time through, and 16 during
the later repeats! The changing number of singles here may be
confusing to dancers. These few problems, though, are quite
outweighed by the rest of the music, which is very usable for SCA
dance.

Music included:

A. from Arbeau (Branles, etc.)
Double / Simple / Gay / Burgogne // Cassandra / Pinagay / Charlotte
// Jouissance vous Donneray / Tourdion / Tourdion // Pavane "Belle
qui tiens ma vie" / Galliarde "La Traditore my fa moire / G.
"Antionette" / G. "J'aymerois mieulx dormir seulette" / La Volta //
Poictou / Ecosse / Bretagne // Malte / Lavandieres / Chevaulx //
Jouissance / 3 French Corantos / Basse "La Roque" / Recercada Segunda
// Haye / Official // Moresques / Canaries / Bouffons

B. from Playford 1651
Grimstock // Upon a Summer's Day // The Spanish Gipsy // Rufty Tufty
// Gray's Inn Mask // Bobbing Joe // Heart's Ease

// = separate tracks.
/ = several dances are included in a single CD track. There's a
brief pause between them... if you wanted, for example, to set up a
tape with several versions of branle Charlotte, you _could_ separate
it off when dubbing a copy, but it does take effort.

- Janelyn et Trahaearn

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

> Safer to ask; you may be pleasantly surprised.
> The dance we do is a recognizable variation/arrangement of Arbeau's Maltese
> Bransle. The important differences are that we've simplified the steps and
> compensated by using a suicide tune.

I took the time to look up the Maltese Branle in Arbeau's _Orchesography_
before I saw Lord Dani's posting, and also found that what I had learned
as the Maltese was a modification on Arbeau's dance. I think, however,
that Lord Dani might be underemphasizing the magnitude of the modifica-
tions, just as Lady Elaine was incorrect to say that the dance is not "one
bit period."

The dance, as I learned it in the SCA, with dancers in a ring, goes:
Double left, double right, double left, double right [drop hands]
3 steps into the centre [raise arms to snap fingers]
Clap three times
[turn 180 degrees after clapping, to step away from the centre, snap
fingers as before]
3 steps away from the centre
Kick left, right, left
[turn 180 degrees as you kick, seize hands to repeat the dance].
I know of several minor variations on this.

Arbeau's dance is a "mimed" dance which he describes as having been de-
vised for a Court masquerade by the Knights of Malta in imitation of the
Turks; it was supposedly first danced in France forty years before, i.e.
ca. 1549. It is supposed to be in slow duple time. I am not quite up
enough on dance notation to give a perfect transcription of Arbeau's steps
but simply put:
Double left, single right
6 steps forward toward the centre, holding foot in air on last step
[dancers gesticulate and make appropriate faces, releasing hands after
the 6th step]
Turn to the left in four steps
Kick left, right, left; bring feet together
[take hands, and repeat, varying the gesticulations and faces]

There are some problems in interpretting this (eg. Arbeau instructs the
dancers to make six steps towards the centre, but never tells them to
come back, and even if you are supposed to travel away from the centre
while turning to the left, I still have this image of an ever tightening
circle ending up in a hopeless tangle, which I suppose *may* have been the
way the Knights of Malta envisioned the Turks). I suspect that some of
the first SCA dance teachers, coming across this nifty mimed branle in
Arbeau, tried to sort out the difficulties by making three of the six
steps toward, and three out of the centre, amalgamating the turn to the
left and the three quick kicks to match the livelier music they were using.
This music also required more steps were required before the steps in and
out of the circle, so they substituted the common "DL, DR, DL, DR" pattern
for Arbeau's "DL, SR".

I have never found this dance apparently out of period, and I consider
it a good example of creating new dances from within the framework of
the existing ones. (Although until very recently I had thought that the
version I knew was from Arbeau, and I think my teachers had fallen down
in the assumptions department, nor had I ever bothered to check.) Any
dancemistress who refuses to dance this dance because it is "not real",
IMHO has rocks in her head. It is well within the tradition it purports
to represent, and it has a reality within the Society.

Sarra Graeham, Canton of Greyfells | Heather Fraser
Principality of Ealdormere, Midrealm | Kingston, Ontario, CANADA
c/o dicksnr@qucdn.queensu.ca

From: flieg@HYDROGEN.CCHEM.BERKELEY.EDU (Frederick Hollander)
Date: 16 May 90 00:03:35 GMT
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

====================================
* * * Frederick of Holland
*** *** *** Old Used Duke
_|___|___|_
|===========| Subject: Jouyoussance
Date: 15 May xxv (1990)

The recent posting from Dani of the Seven Wells on the choreography of
Jouyoussance vous Donneray was interesting to say the least. As the
person who generally teaches the dance out here in the Mists, I have to
say that it is obvious that we have the same music, as the number of
measures fit. However, it is equally obvious that at some point in the
learn-teach-learn cycle the two dances diverged. (And it *is* much
easier to learn from a teacher, though Dani's instructions are
excellent.)

I am not going to repeat Dani's instructions here, go look them up.
The dance as I teach it has the following differences.

1) We use standard pavane sets for all forward movement, with no split
doubles or anything like that. Nobody told us about going straight
forward or the like. I'm not sure whether we are doing two or four
measures to a step since I have no idea what the measures look like.
(The use of the simple pavane sets does mean that we can make the second
set of the middle pair go backwards easily to allow the dance to be
danced in a small room, but I have the suspicion that Dani's
choreography is closer to "right", since it has that obnoxious ;) lack
of pattern characteristic of basse dances. The side to side motion of
the standard pavane set also reduces the space requirements, but not by
much.)

2) In the reprise section we reprise right, then left, then catch *left*
hands together on the fourth beat and circle to the *right*,
*completely* around in four steps, ending up "proper" at all times. We
then do a bransle left, bransle right instead of out/in.

3) The center part was looking the same as ours until I got to the bit
where the ladies changed places and the lords did likewise. We instead
have the couples face so that the lord is returning to place and the
ladies continue on in the same direction. To use up the music we have
the bransle left/right just as at the end of the other reprise sections.

What I find most interesting is that we here have two dances with
major differences between them which are still recognizably the same
dance! Makes me wonder just how many variants were lying around at the
time Arbeau wrote a few of them down.

In service to Crown and Kingdom
Frederick of Holland, Duke, MSCA,OP

From: Justin du Coeur MKA Mark Waks
To: All
Date: 17-May-90 12:12pm
Subject: Jargon, Awards, Dance Invention, etc.

Re: Inventing Dances

I have mixed feelings on this score. On the one hand, there is no question
in my mind that inventing dances is a Good Thing -- a good dancemaster in period
would have been expected to create new dances on a regular basis. On the
other hand, most of the dances invented in the Society would have been
regarded as kinda weird in period, and some of them are downright
abominations.

If you want to invent dances, my advice, in a nutshell, is: know what you
are inventing. This has several corollaries:

-- Don't mix 'n' match. Most of the worst inventions in the Society come from
someone trying to take the best of English Country, Bransles, and Allemandes,
and put them all in one dance. Recognize that these were each distinct dance
forms, from different cultures, for different audiences. Choose *one*
particular form.

-- Study the form. Each form has a whole bunch of unwritten rules. Look at
the dances that you already know from the form, and try to understand those
rules -- some of them are pretty subtle. For example, one that most inventors
in the Society miss: period dances don't do much with the arms. The *vast*
majority of the pre-1600 dances concentrate on the feet, and pay little or
no attention to what you're doing with your hands. This changes somewhat for
English Country, but footwork is still the focus. (This is why dances that
mandate palming give me little heebie-jeebies; it just wasn't done that
much...)

-- Think about garb requirements. Very few people in the SCA dance the
Renaissance dance in the appropriate garb, and it makes a *big* difference.
There's a reason why the dances were written the way they were, after all.
Galliards are appropriate for gentlemen in tights, and things that involve
lots of bending or arm motion are pretty difficult in tight late-period
corsets...

-- Don't get over-ambitious. I'd suggest starting with a bransle or three.
They're relatively flexible, and pretty easy to write. Pavans and allemandes
are similar. English Country is both better and worse -- they're considerably
more flexible, but the unwritten rules are far more complex, and evolved
quickly between 1650 and 1700. (Besides, do you really want to be inventing
something that wouldn't have been in period in the first place?)

-- Don't perpetuate SCA dance myths. English Country dances were not written
for the peasantry, they were intended for a courtly audience, so bear in mind
the garb that would have been worn. Figured Pavans are not, insofar as I know,
period -- the "line of three couples" concept mostly came in with English
Country. (The only lines of three couples I know of in period are for Italian
Balli, and those are *very* different (and much harder to write) than pavans.)

-- Critique yourself hard, and don't fall in love with your work. Talk to
other dance-types around, and see what they have to say about the dance, before
it gets graven in stone. You don't have to take their advice, but you should
seek it out.

The final test is what a knowledgable dancemaster says when they see the
dance. If I see an invention, and my first reaction is, "Gee, I must have
overlooked that one -- I'll have to go find the source", then I conclude
that that is a successful invention. If it looks like a period dance, walks
like a period dance, and quacks like a period dance, it's a period dance...

(I can feel an editiorial for the Letter of Dance coming on...)

-- Justin du Coeur
The perenially long-winded

From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig)
Date: 20 Jun 90 04:25:14 GMT
Organization: Graduate School of Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon,
Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

A couple of years ago I got an English-Country dancer to send me his
instructions for this dance. This is the way it's danced today, but
it seems a very reasonable reconstruction to me:
====================

From: Jonathan Young <young-jonathan@YALE.ARPA>

* Stingo (to Juice of Barley) 1651 Playford
3 cpl sets

Fall back from ptn a double;
Fwd a double to ptn;
Up (the set) a double and back;

3 Men turn right hands round;
They set to ptn & turn single

3 Women turn left hands round;
They set to ptn & turn single

Siding:
Fwd to ptn a double & back (touch right shoulders)
Fwd to ptn a double & back (touch left shoulders)

All turn L, up a double;
turn single (in); back to place
Set & turn single

All turn R, up a double;
turn single (in); back to place
Set & turn single

Arming:
Arm ptn right once round
Arm ptn left once round
Set & turn single

B
1s cross to between 2&3 of opp sex;
set to 2s above;
set to 3s below;
go back to ptn's place, exiting between 2&3;
turn up single; 2h turn ptn once round;
cast down to third place while 2s & 3s lead up

====================

Some notes:

The first figure has two lines of dancers falling away from their partners.
This makes sense of "meet again".

If I interpret this correctly, the second figure includes a men's r.h. star
and a women's l.h. star. This makes more sense than having the men
dance with the women, the way it's worded.

This was written up (by the person who sent it to me) from memory, not
from a reference.

I'm not sure the timing on the arming works. (One reason I never
taught this dance.)

-----
Dani of the Seven Wells

From: dani@netcom.COM (Dani Zweig)
Date: 20 Aug 91 22:52:31 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

I don't mean to imply, of course, that there was nothing else doing
at Pennsic. There were all sorts of other things (I suppose) including
between three and four hundred merchants who'd sworn a solemn oath
to beggar me. But I'll just comment on these.

Dancing was an improvement on many previous years, but it still has a
long way to go. The perennial problem of beginners' dancing driving
out advanced dancing is still unsolved. This is exacerbated by the
otherwise laudable fact that most of the music is live: The overlap of
the musicians' repertoire and the dancemistress's repertoire turned out
to be the ten or twenty Standard Dances which half the dancers knew and
the other half could be taught in ten minutes. I don't know any good
answers to this frustrating situation.

-----
Dani of the Seven Wells
dani@netcom.com

And there is more to it than this, for dancing is practised to
reveal whether lovers are in good health and sound of limb, and
after which they are permitted to kiss their mistresses in order that
they may touch and savour one another, thus to ascertain if they
are shapely or emit an unpleasant odour as of bad meat. Therefore,
from this standpoint, quite apart from the many other advantages to
be derived from dancing, it becomes an essential in a well-ordered
society. -- Thoinot Arbeau (1588)

From: bnostrand@lynx.northeastern.EDU
Date: 19 Sep 91 16:21:24 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Dance Master Justin De Ceour has made a very standard comment about
period vs non-period dancing. However, it may be easily misunderstood.
What is actually being talked about is not dancing in general but rather
documented dancing. In order for dancing to be documented, it was
necessary for the professional dance masters to first come into existence.
These dance maters were paid professionals (frequently aquiring a lot
of influence as masters of courtesy and protocol) and as such
choreographed dances for professional entertainers and occasionally
courtiers who wished to demonstrate their proficiency at dancing.
(re. comments by Countess Mara Tudora) (sp)

Group dancing existed before all of this, but it is not clear whether
it was social dancing in the 18th and 19th century sense. For example,
a Papal bull banned Caroling (about a thousand years ago ... I am sorry
that I can not provide a date at this time) which had previously been
practiced in church yards. There is also I believe a fair amount of
iconographic evidence suggesting the existence of group non-performance
dancing. (The existence of a non-dancing audience does not gaurantee
that the dance in question is a performance dance. The largely
undocumented festival dancing of Japan for example features both dances
by 1 to 8 or so dancers and other dances in which mobs of people
participate and freely join and leave the dance as it progresses.)
We see similar patterns in documented African and American tribal
dances. One distinguishing feature of a lot of this pre-modern
dancing is the ritualistic overtones of a lot of it and also that
a lot of it separates the two genders. In reports of early Italian
dance there are (again I defer to Mara) indications that some
of the oestensibly mixed-sex dances were actually performed by people
of the same sex. Regardless, the emergence of social couples
dancing may in fact be relatively recent. And probably grew out of
a desire on the part of court nobles to emulate the refined dances
of the professional dancers. (Although this of course is purest
speculation.)

The ritualistic nature of a lot of Japanese dancing has been extensively
commented upon. A lot of Japanese dancing corresponds to the Obon
season and in a sense is performance dancing. The unseen audience is
the assembled unseen spirits of the departed ancestors of the dancers.
Other dances are typically fertility dances and are frequently performed by
smaller groups. And there are also other dances as well. All of this
is "folk" dancing in that they are performed by non-professional
peasantry. Their purpose to appease ancestors, cause the crops to grow,
dispell deamons, etc. And, of course they all make great social events.
Noh dancing on the other hand is strictly professional, typically
narative and strongly associated with institutionalized religion.
(Shinto shires) One more thread in paleo-dancing, is exhibitionist
dancing. I would like to suggested that skilled exhibitionist dancers
are possibly the predecessors of the professional dance masters.
For example, the now professionalized tribal dances of Berundi (sp)
have clearly exhibitionist elements. However, these same elements
are visible in films collected by anthropologists. (Flame off for now.)

Solveig Throndardottir

From: bnostrand@lynx.northeastern.EDU
Date: 19 Sep 91 16:28:45 GMT
Organization: The Internet

One more source of proto-dancing in Europe of course is the processionals
of the Catholic church. These still take place in churches and
monestaries and are designed to move large groups of people into and out
of a bassilica in such a way as to impress (and intimidate) the
peasants. These of course may be taken from the triumphs of Rome which
searved a similar purpose. Consequently, it is generally understood
that some of the early dances (e.g., Pavans) were descended from and
may have in fact been processionals. Others such as some of the
Bransles (sp) may in fact be descendents of fertility dances.

More Smoke from
Solveig Throndardottir

From: bnostrand@lynx.northeastern.EDU
Date: 20 Sep 91 01:11:52 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Recently, (I can not say when I receive the digest and it appears to be
jumbled at the moment) a gentle remarked on the relative unpopularity of
easy period dances when compared to various non-period dances. It seems
to me that what the easy period dances often lack is:
1) Flashyness
2) Large Body Movements
3) Fast Rythm
That is they are rather subdued. Even horses which can be executed in
a rather flashy manner (that is if you really enjoy pawing and stomping)
is frequently taught and performed in a rather lack luster manner and is
rather slow. This is not true of Maltese Bransle and hence its relative
popularity. This I also think explains the popularity of some of the
English country dances. (Especially when performed in the style of the
silly school of dancing.) While Hole in the Wall may be relatively
subdued it is popular (in my opinion) largely becausc of the chaos of
kidnapping. Also all of the bowing and turning out lends an oportunity
to express panasche! One attempt at a period dance which shows promise
is Salterello which is relatively simple but is more importantly
energetic and allows a lot of opportunity for flash. The problem with
this theory is what about Galliards. Well there are quite a few
galliard enthusiasts but, a flashy galliard is relatively complicated.
One interesting note is the exagerated movements of many of the dancers
at Pensic when performing Pavans and other early Italian processional
dances. Many people stomped their feet off to the side and the line
had a distinct duck walk quality to it. (Perhaps I am being too harsh
but this style of dancing is rather new to me and it seems suspiciously
similar to the style of Karobushka and Road to the Isles.) A possible
solution would be for our dance masters to try to find period dances
which satisfy the underlying psychological needs of the dancers. Now
whether such dances actually exist is another problem.

Solveig Throndardottir

From: justin@inmet.camb.inmet.COM (Justin du Coeur MKA Mark Waks)
Date: 20 Sep 91 18:05:40 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Re: Social Dance in Period

Solveig makes a bunch of points, which boil down to "social and ritual dance
of assorted sorts were done in period". It's a good point, and one to
remember.

When we talk about "period dance", we generally mean pretty much exclusively
Renaissance Dance, starting in the early 1400's. That does *not* mean that
people didn't dance before then, nor does it mean that the dances that we
are reconstructing are the only ones that were found in period. It means
that these are the only dances that we are *capable* of reconstructing.

We know that there was social dance in the early Renaissance and before.
In the most recent issue of The Letter of Dance (number ten), Leah di Estera
provides some excerpts from a 14th-century poem, which describes what amounts
to an extended Christmas party. The poem mentions a *lot* of what are
apparently social dances, giving very slight descriptions and/or names
for each. Unfortunately, the scant descriptions aren't enough to even
begin reconstructing from.

Which is essentially the problem -- until the rise of the professional
dancemaster, no one bothered to write these things down. We have some
paintings here and there, but it's *quite* hard to deduce much about a
dance from a painting; art, especially much of period art, doesn't convey
movement all that well. And even in the Renaissance, there were probably
a lot of social dances being done that never got described in any detail...

So, we're left with a good number of dances from late period, and a little
guesswork about the earlier dances. One thing that I'm hoping to see, and
Geoffrey's Saltarello was a movement in this direction, is some discussion
of the fragmentary evidence that we have from earlier in period. We may not
get reconstructions that are quite as reliable as the later-period ones,
but we may, with time, manage to come up with more educated guesses worth
examining and arguing about...

-- Justin du Coeur

From: adn@mayo.EDU (Ann Nielsen)
Date: 20 Sep 91 20:35:05 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Greetings unto the good gentles of the Rialto!

Robyyan (who teasingly speaks of my height and how I must spend my days in
terror...truly, I am not so tall (actually, I'm the shortest in my family),
although I do have terrible nightmares of falling...really, I do!!) wonders
why the kami-kaze version of Strip the Willow is more fun than the original
version. Well, to me it is more fun because it is sillier. We laugh more.
Doing the kami-kaze version also flaunts the 'rules' of doing StW 'straight',
which of course makes it more fun (for the 5 year old in all of us)! When
you aren't the person going down the middle of StW, or the one swinging the
middle person, what is there for you to do? Nothing. <yawn> And when StW is
done around here, the lines are incredibly long, which makes the dance
incredibly boring. Annoying the dance purists is fun only when they've been
obnoxious or when they've left their sense of humor at home. (We combined
Road to the Isles and Karaboushka one time to tease a dance laurel, and we
periodically do it to watch her face. Her reactions are most marvelous!!)
Umm, let's see...the first time I did the k-kStW I was involuntarily brought
into it --- I was sitting along the sidelines, watching the dance, when the
instigator came dashing over, pulled me up and swung me into the line, twirling
me about and tossing me on to the next person. Silliness is about the only
thing that gets me to dance StW.

He also asks, if a dance is entertaining already, why spice it up? Silly boy --
you are talking to someone who LOVES late period Tudor/Elizabethan garb. That's
like saying, "Gee, that dress is pretty on its own --- why add jewels??"
'Cause they're there!! They spice up the dress, sparkle, and are enjoyable for
their beauty (gee, can you tell I like jewelry?). Same with the dances. Once
the dance is known, it's fun to 'play' with it, spice it up, change it a wee
bit here and there, and have fun with it.

Actually, I don't always like dances that are energy-expendent (sometimes it
gets hard to breathe in a corset!), but MY personal criteria for a dance that
I enjoy is this:
1) entertaining to do (such as Miller in the Middle, Hole in the
Wall, Road to the Isles, etc. These may or may not be period
dances, but they are fairly easily mastered and fun. Note that
not all are fast and furious)
2) good music. Actually, I'm surprised that no one has brought this
up. Why are there top 40 songs on the radio? Because they
are infectuous. ("Uhh, yeah, Dick, I like the second one
better 'cause it's got a better, uhh, beat. Yeah, the beat's
good and I can dance to it. I give it a 70.") The same with
period dancing. If the music sets your toes a-tapping (or if
it touches something inside of you that makes you want to
go out and sway elegantly and flirt circumspectly and show
attitude), then chances are you will learn the dance and be
out there.
3) esthetics. This is a difficult one for me to describe. It's along
the lines of why I play my harp. I'll never be a concert
harpist, and I don't play it with that expectation. I play it
because it's another way to voice what's inside of me, to
express emotions and thoughts that perhaps can't be expressed
in words. And sometimes that's why I dance. I dance to express
a part of me that can't be said. It allows me to flirt outrag-
eously with someone when I wouldn't if we were speaking face
to face. It allows me to move elegantly, letting me feel
refined and perhaps aristocratic, and beautiful. It lets me
laugh over being silly, and lets me move in three dimesions,
when often words are only two-dimensional. That is why I love
the truly elegant choreographed period dances. The 'pattern'
of those dances are so satisfying.
Those are the three basic things I look for in a dance (now you've got me
analyzing why I do them, Robyyan!). I'm sure there are other reasons, but
they probably fall under one of the headings above.

I have an idea to propose. Might it be possible that the longer you are in
the SCA, the more willing you might be to learn new and possibly more compli-
cated dances? This seems to be the case for me. Last spring our Shire hosted
the regional dance seminar, and since I was autocrat I didn't take any classes,
but I did watch some and said, "Hmm, I want to learn that one, and that one,
and that one..." There was one particularly elegant twirly-pointy toed one
that I have got on my list-of-dances-to-learn. (One of the girls in the Shire
took the class and promises to point it out at the next dance semiar.) I find
the longer I'm in the SCA, the more I want to learn, the more I'm willing to
work at learning, and the more fun it becomes (and here I thought I was bad
when I started!!)

So, m'lord Robyyan, do you still think there's hope for me yet? ;-v

Therica

From: mjl@rutabaga.Rational.COM (Matthew Larsen)
Date: 21 Sep 91 18:55:25 GMT

sbloch@euler.ucsd.edu (Steve Bloch) writes:

>MKNETTEL@kentvm.kent.EDU ("Mary Knettel ", Genevieve du Vent Argent) writes:
>>people are requesting
>>"Saltarello" and "Scotch Cap" as often as Trenchmore; and not many have
>>requested "Hole in the Wall" lately.

>"Saltarello" isn't, to my knowledge, a specific dance but rather a
>type of dance; the word comes mostly from a 14th-century Italian music
>manuscript (BL addl. ms. 29987, for the librarians in the crowd) that
>contains no dance steps. Do we actually have period sources for how
>to dance a Saltarello? (Geoffrey did a "plausible invention" of a
>Saltarello in LoD #7, suggesting that there is no primary source.)

>--
>Stephen Bloch
>mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib
>>sca>Caid>Calafia>St.Artemas
>sbloch@math.ucsd.edu

There is no period choreography with the name "saltarello", although
there are many pieces of music with that title (just as there are many
pieces of music entitled "bransle" or "basse dance", with no specific
choreography extant). The fifteenth century Italian sources do give us
a step called the saltarello and some also give another step called a
saltarello tedesco (the word saltarello, by the way, is derived from the
italian word "salto" or "to jump", so one would expect the step to
involve some jumping or leaping of some sort). My guess is that when
one of these non-specific saltarello pieces was played, people would
simply dance the saltarello step to it, probably with variations invented
on the spot, just as bransle and galliards would be danced in the 16th
century. For those who are interested, Dr. Ingrid Brainard (a mundane
dance scholar who specializes in the 15th century dances) has a
reconstruction of the saltarello step which is done like this: step left,
hop (with the right foot raised in front, knee bent and the foot about
6-8 inches off the floor), step right, step left.

Geoffrey Mathias (not the Geoffrey who did the saltarello reconstruction
for the Letter of Dance)
mjl@rational.rational.com

---------------------------------10/16/91-------------------
From: DRS@UNCVX1.BITNET ("Dennis R. Sherman")
Date: 26 Sep 91 11:54:00 GMT
Organization: The Internet

(Justin)
> I'm curious. All of you who have taught galliards, do you teach them as
> "right foot" and "left foot", or as "front foot" and "back foot"? I've
> [...]
> way. Has anyone else come up with this particular twist, and if so,
> have you also found it to help?

I use right foot/left foot, but don't teach galliard as staying in one
place. Generally, I line up students at one end of the room and teach
the basic 5 step travelling forward, calling left, right, left, right,
pause, and switch; right, left, right, left, pause, and switch. Once
people have understood it going forward, it's pretty easy to shift to
staying in one place. Another trick I use to help people get the rhythm
is tell them to think of "My Country 'tis of Thee" - it's a galliard
rhythm, at about the right speed.

Robyyan Torr d'Elandris Dennis R. Sherman
Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill Chapel Hill, NC
Atlantia drs@uncvx1.bitnet

From: KGANDEK@mitvmc.mit.EDU (Kathryn Gandek)
Date: 26 Sep 91 14:31:30 GMT
Organization: The Internet

I confess to being of the technique is fun school. However, how I learned
renaissnce dance may have something to do with it. My first exposure (after
a dozen or so years of ballet) was a college course I took for credit (i.e. we
actually had to study as well as dance). A few years later I found the SCA and
attended some dance practices and danced at events. Eventually, I started t
spending more time visiting at events than dancing, although I didn't stop
to think much about why. Then I joined a renaissance dance troupe run by Dr.
Ingrid Brainard, a scholar and teacher of the subject. All of a sudden I was
among people who were quite serious about _how_ the dances were done. In
rehearsals we didn't do as many dances as the SCA tries to do, but we worked
on doing them well. And I loved it.

Earlier this month I had to decide whether or not I could presently continue
with that dance troupe. I had to decide not to, but it was with some regret.
SCA dancing isn't as fun anymore -- and perhaps it was already becoming so
before I joined the dance troupe.

When the troupe performed, they did so with the intent of recreating the
manners and the motions and the attitudes of the people who would have
performed the dances. There is a grace and beauty to their performances.
If we got a little less polished doing Gathering Peascods in rehearsal, Ingrid
would chastise us by saying "You're supposed to be in court, not the SCA!"
A few of the troupe members are SCAdian and the rest know what Ingrid thinks of
the style of SCA dancing - namely that we lack it. The next time I did
Gathering Peascods at an event, I had to agree with her. I'm afraid serious
square dancers will be offended if I say it looked like a hoedown. Serious
square dancers look much nicer than we did. It was sort of a free for all.

Does that mean that I think the SCA is "doing it wrong" or "ought to be doing
it differently" or that I'm going to lead a movement to change it? Nahw.
Personally, I think people who are certain that they know how to improve the
SCA and will show other people the true light just offend the populous. And
who am I to criticize other people's fun? Goodness knows, my garb or cooking
or something else probably doesn't meet some people's standards.

However,... I do theatre in the SCA (as some of you may have gathered by now),
and I'm planning on putting together a masque that includes dances as
performance pieces. (See earlier posting on dance as performance) If I'm
going to ask an audience to watch that dancing, the performers can't just know
the steps. They've _got_to_do_them_well. That's one of my criteria for
performing for a public audience - even one as charitable as the SCA.

If you (whoever the you's are) want to see dancing done with care as well as
enthusiasm, think of putting together a masque where care is important.

Hopefully next spring I'll have the theatrical blueprint for a masque (includin
speeches, appropriate dances to the subject and time, descriptions of scenic
devices and music that is also appropriate). IF I do this, anyone who wants to
use it is welcome to do so. If you want to start on something now, I've got
an article I wrote on the development of mummings, disguisings and masques that
will give you a start. There are sources listed in the bibliography that will
be useful for further research. Drop me a line if you want a copy.

And who knows,... Maybe some of the people who watch the piece will decide
that they'd like to start dancing with care as well as enthusiasm!

Catrin o'r Rhyd For Kathryn Gandek
Barony of Carolingia Boston area
East Kingdom kgandek%mitvmc.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu

From: Pat.McGregor@um.cc.umich.EDU
Date: 25 Sep 91 17:27:50 GMT
Organization: The Internet

I forwarded some of the discussion about OOP dances and why some
dances are more interested than others to my local CDSS (Country
Dance and Song Society, formerly the English Folk Society)
representative and dance teacher, and these are her comments back.

The CDSS headquarters in Boston have a LOT of research material
available on early dances. In addition, they sponsor a camp every
summer that has two weeks on early dances, specializing in stuff
pre-1650.

Siobhan Medhbh O'Roarke Pat McGregor
Barony Northwoods / Shire Cynnabar 3638 Greenook Blvd
Internet: SMOR@um.cc.umich.edu Ann Arbor, MI 48103-9143
BITNET: Userw02v@umichum (313) 426-3506

---(Forwarded from: Erna-Lynne.Bogue@ub.cc.umich.edu, Dated: Mon, 23 Sep 91
16:20:22 EDT)---
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 91 16:20:22 EDT
From: Erna-Lynne.Bogue@ub.cc.umich.edu
To: patmcg@merit.edu

Clearly these folks have never tried to learn Step Stately. It's
an ECD that is *so* tough that my performance group has to practice
it at every session and even then it's only reliable in performance
for about 50% of them. It's also got one of the best claims of having
been done pre-1600 of any Playford: it's in the 1st Edition, the music
is clearly from an earlier period (and the good tune that is usually
substituted for the original terrible one is also from an earlier period)
and it is designed to end so that the entire set of 3 couples honors
The Presence (ranking nobility) -- marking it as having court dance
origins. If all SCA groups work at learning dances in about the same
way that the ones I saw, then it's not surprising they think they are
simple: they're only doing things that are simple. Sigh.

The other thing that is interesting is that whoever these folks are,
they're completely ignoring the question of steps used in ECD. We
do it today the way it was first reconstructed, when no step info was
available. But there's been a lot of research in the last 10 years.
If one wanted to do ECD authentically, the steps are a bear to learn --
I know, I did a few weeks of workshop and finally remembered (luckily!)
that I was into ECD for pleasure and community, not for authenticity.
It was clear that attention to authenticity at that level would make it
not as much fun,and there wouldn't be a community there. But if the
bransles are being taught *with* correct steps while the ECD is being
taught (inauthentically) *without* correct steps, then of course it will
seem easier to folks for whom footwork isn't easy.

elb

From: justin@inmet.camb.inmet.COM (Justin du Coeur MKA Mark Waks)
Date: 26 Sep 91 21:44:32 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Re: English Country Dance

Siobhan forwards:
>Clearly these folks have never tried to learn Step Stately. It's
>an ECD that is *so* tough that my performance group has to practice
>it at every session and even then it's only reliable in performance
>for about 50% of them.

A fine point, and a dance worth learning if you're into grotesquely
tricky ECD. They've done this one down in the Barony of the Bridge (RI),
which is where I learned it. It's one of the only EC dances I've done
that I wasn't able to teach (or even *start* to teach) after doing it
four or five times.

>The other thing that is interesting is that whoever these folks are,
>they're completely ignoring the question of steps used in ECD. We
>do it today the way it was first reconstructed, when no step info was
>available. But there's been a lot of research in the last 10 years.
>If one wanted to do ECD authentically, the steps are a bear to learn --
>I know, I did a few weeks of workshop and finally remembered (luckily!)
>that I was into ECD for pleasure and community, not for authenticity.
>It was clear that attention to authenticity at that level would make it
>not as much fun,and there wouldn't be a community there. But if the
>bransles are being taught *with* correct steps while the ECD is being
>taught (inauthentically) *without* correct steps, then of course it will
>seem easier to folks for whom footwork isn't easy.

Now *this* intrigues the hell out of me. My understanding was that we
still really didn't know the "correct" steps for earlier ECD. (The later
dances are essentially Baroque, but I thought that the current theory
was that the baroque steps evolved in over the course of things.) Do we
have a reasonably good idea of what 1651 ECD steps looked like? If so,
can anyone point me to some sources? This is *definitely* Letter of
Dance fodder...

-- Justin du Coeur
Eternal Dance Mavin

From: mjl@rutabaga.Rational.COM (Matthew Larsen)
Date: 21 Sep 91 20:42:54 GMT

DRS@UNCVX1.BITNET ("Dennis R. Sherman") writes:

>I'm enjoying the discussion of why Out Of Period (OOP) dances are so popular.
>It's a question I've been trying to answer for quite a while, and haven't
>found an answer I'm happy with yet.

>The answer I get most often when I ask comparatively uneducated dancers why
>they like particular dances, especially English country, is "They're fun!."
>When I ask why they don't like certain dances, particularly bransles, the
>answer is "They're boring." Relative complexity doesn't seem to enter into
>consideration.

I think part of what most dance teachers don't notice is sort of personal
complexity. By this I mean roughly that any dance that a person doesn't
know is more complex than one they do know. I personally don't think that
burgundian basse dances are any more complex than a lot of english country
dances, but they do have a whole different vocabulary of steps and paterns.
So when someone encounters them for the first time they feel as though they
are more complex, when what they really are is different. Most people who
aren't stepjocks (I think that's a great term) don't want to feel as though
they are beginners again and have to start over; they want to do things that
they feel competent in and have some familiarity with.

But, I hear you ask, why is that people _everywhere_ consider English Country
the easiest kind of dancing? I think there are a couple of reasons. First
of all, many of the dances are easy, and you can build up to the harder ones.
Second (and I think this is very important) most dance instructors teach
English Country first, partly because _they_ think it's easy and partly
because its what they learned first and people like it. But I think the most
important reason that _everyone_ thinks ECD is easy and _everyone_ does it
is that it is the only form of (nearly) period dance that you can learn
from a mundane source in almost any city large enough to support a large
SCA group. As a result, ECD came into the SCA from a variety of people who
all learned it in the mundane world. I don't mean to suggest that ECD is in
any way bad because of this, but I do think that it has contributed to people
viewing it as "easy" dance.

>So, what makes one dance fun, and another one boring? Well, that's going to
>vary quite a bit for different people, I suspect. For absolute beginners,
>the dance they can manage successfully with the least learning time is going
>to be what they find fun, I suspect - hence the popularity of the SCA Maltese
>Branle. For people that know a little more, often interaction with a
>partner will be fun, leading to the popularity of the simpler English country
>dances, and the choreographed pavanes. And for people that know a lot,
>i.e. the "stepjocks" (I kind of like the term, actually, even if I are one :-)
>dancing *any* dance with historically accurate form and style is fun.

Once again, I think for most beginning dancers and even for a lot of
intermediate people, fun is what they already know. But if you work from
that point, it means that it is possible to get people to think of galliards
and 15th c. Italian dancing as fun: all you have to do is train a new
generation of dancers by teaching them that stuff first ("That's all??!!!" I
hear you cry. Well, nobody said it would happen overnight).

>One thing I've noticed is that 'fun' for the people in the middle group,
>those that know some but not a lot, is often tied to energy expenditure.
>The more active a dance is (or is able to be made) the better they like it.
>Of course, this doesn't explain why Galliards are not generally more popular.

If I'm right, all you have to do is teach galliards before you teach
other things. I'm convinced I can teach people to do a galliard as guickly
as I can teach them to do Strip the Willow or many of the other "bouncy"
dances. The only thing that might stand in the way of this is that
it takes longer to learn to galliard really well than it does to learn
something like Strip the Willow. And that means that Lord Beginner will
look at the dance master and may feel that he will never be that good, and
give up trying. But I hope that most people don't approach dancing as
something they can learn in a day. If so, we'll never really make any
headway with that kind of person anyway.

> Robyyan Torr d'Elandris Dennis R. Sherman
> Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill Chapel Hill, NC
> Atlantia drs@uncvx1.bitnet

Geoffrey Mathias
mjl@rational.rational.com

From: dani@netcom.COM (Dani Zweig)
Date: 21 Sep 91 22:36:09 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

mjl@rutabaga.Rational.COM (Matthew Larsen):
>>Of course, this doesn't explain why Galliards are not generally more popular.
>
>If I'm right, all you have to do is teach galliards before you teach
>other things. I'm convinced I can teach people to do a galliard as guickly
>as I can teach them...

There's another problem with galliards, especially for beginners: They're
generally taught unchoreographed. For a beginner -- especially one who
has not done other kinds of dancing mundanely -- it is *very* difficult
to ad-lib even an easy set of steps. One of the characteristics shared
by the popular dances within the SCA is that every step of the dance is
laid out in advance, so the beginner can in some meaningful way think
"I know that dance."

-----
Dani of the Seven Wells
dani@netcom.com

From: jstone@microsoft.com (Jeff STONE)
Date: 25 Sep 91 19:38:16 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.

Tristan here;

In article <90e202Bk00Uw01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> branwen@flipper.ccc.amdahl.com
(Karen Williams) writes:
>In article <9109231305.aa13069@mc.lcs.mit.edu> DRS@UNCVX1.BITNET ("Dennis R.
Sherman") writes:
>
>>To take the last part first, I agree, but how many people do *any* dance
>>really well? Given the total number of people that dance at least a
>>little, I'd say a very, very small proportion dance really well. I'd
>>even hazard a guess that there are many more really good fighters than
>>there are really good dancers, although there are probably more people
>>that dance than people that fight.
>
>Yes, but there are many, many more fighter practices than there are dance
>practices, and many, many more tourneys than there are balls.
>
>Branwen ferch Emrys
>The Mists, the West
>--
> Karen Williams
> branwen@flipper.ras.amdahl.com

I would never suggest that I myself have much skill at dance, but I do
love to do so. The Barony of Madrone in An Tir holds dance practice every
week, and our Dance Master & Mistress usually try to have dancing at any
event they attend. Their efforts have certainly bettered my skills at
dance, so I'd suggest that Branwen's observation about more dance practice
leads to better (and more of them!) dancers is a true dictum. Our practices
generally see two dozen or more frolicsome folk turn out. Strangely, we
very consistently have a noticeable imbalance of the sexes--we have far more
lords in attendance than ladies. I have no clue as to why this is; when I
roved in other lands than Fair An Tir, 'twas the ladies that were more
inclined to dance than the menfolk.

So, should any of you dancers from other Kingdoms ever find yourselves in
this lovely realm, do look us up! We'll chat, and then perhaps a bransle?

Dreaming the Dream,
Tristan

SCA Mundanely
Tristan Gryphonroke Jeff Stone
Barony of Madrone jstone@microsoft.com
Kingdom of An Tir

From: pears@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Arnold N Pears)
Date: 27 Sep 91 02:32:02 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia

In article <9109261038.aa02541@mc.lcs.mit.edu> KGANDEK@mitvmc.mit.EDU (Kathryn
Gandek) writes:
>I confess to being of the technique is fun school. However, how I learned
>renaissnce dance may have something to do with it. My first exposure (after
>a dozen or so years of ballet) was a college course I took for credit (i.e. we
>actually had to study as well as dance). A few years later I found the SCA and
>attended some dance practices and danced at events. Eventually, I started t
>spending more time visiting at events than dancing, although I didn't stop
>to think much about why. Then I joined a renaissance dance troupe run by Dr.
>Ingrid Brainard, a scholar and teacher of the subject. All of a sudden I was
>among people who were quite serious about _how_ the dances were done. In
>rehearsals we didn't do as many dances as the SCA tries to do, but we worked
>on doing them well. And I loved it.
>
>Earlier this month I had to decide whether or not I could presently continue
>with that dance troupe. I had to decide not to, but it was with some regret.
>SCA dancing isn't as fun anymore -- and perhaps it was already becoming so
>before I joined the dance troupe.

I am very familiar with the type of dancing you describe here,
and have been a member of a performing dance group in Melbourne
Australia run by a lady called Helga Hill, who teaches dance
here and at Dartington in England every year.

I remember having a special seminar and dance lesson with Dr. Brainard
when she visited our troup in 1987 or so. While there were some
stylistic differences her attitude was similar to ours.

>When the troupe performed, they did so with the intent of recreating the
>manners and the motions and the attitudes of the people who would have
>performed the dances. There is a grace and beauty to their performances.
>If we got a little less polished doing Gathering Peascods in rehearsal, Ingrid
>would chastise us by saying "You're supposed to be in court, not the SCA!"
>A few of the troupe members are SCAdian and the rest know what Ingrid thinks of
>the style of SCA dancing - namely that we lack it. The next time I did
>Gathering Peascods at an event, I had to agree with her. I'm afraid serious
>square dancers will be offended if I say it looked like a hoedown. Serious
>square dancers look much nicer than we did. It was sort of a free for all.

I find this very apt. The SCA in general teach dances in a loose manner.
Much of the teaching I see is of the now jump right a bit and step left and
right turn over shoulder etc.
The problem I have with this is in the precision in execution, and
knowledge of steps.

The precision comes only from practice and almost
everone will get that if they keep at it and practice dances to as close
to perfection as the group can achieve.

The knowledge of individual steps is a REAL PROBLEM!!! At least here
in Lochac dances seem to be taught as units. That is the steps are not
presented and divided out and identified, this is particularly true of
the Italian dances, which for me seem to be the ones that really need it.
The result is that it takes a long time to teach a new dance. If everyone
knows the steps and can perform a, saffice, or dopij espangola, etc
then the teaching consists mostly of the interpretation, pattern on
the floor and gesture. Admittedly in very hard dances it can take even
people expert in the steps a long time to remember the sequence of
steps and get them exactly in time, but they do produce a more
defined and graceful product. Well that is my opinion anyway!!

>Does that mean that I think the SCA is "doing it wrong" or "ought to be doing
>it differently" or that I'm going to lead a movement to change it? Nahw.
>Personally, I think people who are certain that they know how to improve the
>SCA and will show other people the true light just offend the populous. And
>who am I to criticize other people's fun? Goodness knows, my garb or cooking
>or something else probably doesn't meet some people's standards.

Yes I agree, I have run into great hostility trying to teach dance
steps before the dance. People want to be told to step left etc, without
the work involved in refining the motions. This is sad because it is hard
to dance in a meaningful way and interact with your partner if you are
being wild and uncoordinated, many of the later Italian dances offer
great scope to flirt and sometimes even touch your partner, these
are dances of subtlety and mime, which are rendered much less by
gung ho performance traditions.

>However,... I do theatre in the SCA (as some of you may have gathered by now),
>and I'm planning on putting together a masque that includes dances as
>performance pieces. (See earlier posting on dance as performance) If I'm
>going to ask an audience to watch that dancing, the performers can't just know
>the steps. They've _got_to_do_them_well. That's one of my criteria for
>performing for a public audience - even one as charitable as the SCA.

This is an idea I have had a few times too. I would be interested in
any bibliography you could provide.

Arenwald von Hagenburg
--
Arnold Pears. Computer Sci Dept ACSNET : pears@latcs1.oz
La Trobe Uni, Bundoora 3083. "Well here we all are then."
Ph (03) 479-1144 -ME

From: donna@envy.kwantlen.bc.ca (Donna Hrynkiw)
Date: 27 Sep 91 22:40:00 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Greetings to the Rialto from Elizabeth Braidwod.

Catrin o'r Rhyd For <KGANDEK@mitvmc.mit.edu> has some interesting things to
say about Dance in the SCA:

> When the troupe performed, they did so with the intent of recreating the
> manners and the motions and the attitudes of the people who would have
> performed the dances. There is a grace and beauty to their performances.
> If we got a little less polished doing Gathering Peascods in rehearsal,
> Ingrid would chastise us by saying "You're supposed to be in court, not
> the SCA!" A few of the troupe members are SCAdian and the rest know what
> Ingrid thinks of the style of SCA dancing - namely that we lack it. The
> next time I did Gathering Peascods at an event, I had to agree with her.
> I'm afraid serious square dancers will be offended if I say it looked
> like a hoedown. Serious square dancers look much nicer than we did. It
> was sort of a free for all.

Now, before I comment on Catrin's posting, let me say that I'm not an
expert in dance and that months go by between times I step out on the
dance floor. But there is a subtle criticizm in this posting and it bothers
me. (No offence taken or intended, Catrin.)

There are several clues to what I think is wrong with this paragraph and
they are: "performed", "performances", "rehearsal" and "serious". I believe
that most people in the SCA dance for the pure enjoyment of moving in time
to the music and flirting with their partners. There are not performers,
there is no audience, there are only participants. If I was concerned
with the way I looked while I danced, I would slink away in abject shame
and never dance again.

When I think of participant dancing in period, I think of it as the medieval
equivalent to a modern country wedding reception. People dancing for the
pure joy of socializing and moving to the music. Those people don't go
to rehearsals or even dance practices. And while it may not appear graceful,
it is certainly fun.

Like I said, I'm no dance expert. But I don't think that grace and beauty
are the point of the dance for most SCA folk. Now, if you're talking about
performance dance, that's a different story.

> And who knows,... Maybe some of the people who watch the piece will
> decide that they'd like to start dancing with care as well as enthusiasm!
Implying that we don't dance with care now? Maybe you're right - we don't
care what we look like, only that we're having fun.

E.B.
--------------------
Elizabeth "E.B." Braidwood Donna Hrynkiw
Lions Gate, An Tir Kwantlen College
donna@envy.kwantlen.bc.ca Surrey, B.C.

Per bend sinister Or and vert, two bendlets enhanced above two holly leaves
all counterchanged.

From: mjl@rutabaga.Rational.COM (Matthew Larsen)
Date: 28 Sep 91 17:46:35 GMT

Pat.McGregor@um.cc.umich.EDU writes:

>I forwarded some of the discussion about OOP dances and why some
>dances are more interested than others to my local CDSS (Country
>Dance and Song Society, formerly the English Folk Society)
>representative and dance teacher, and these are her comments back.
>
>Siobhan Medhbh O'Roarke Pat McGregor
>Barony Northwoods / Shire Cynnabar 3638 Greenook Blvd
>Internet: SMOR@um.cc.umich.edu Ann Arbor, MI 48103-9143
>BITNET: Userw02v@umichum (313) 426-3506
>From: Erna-Lynne.Bogue@ub.cc.umich.edu
>
>Clearly these folks have never tried to learn Step Stately. It's
>an ECD that is *so* tough that my performance group has to practice
>it at every session and even then it's only reliable in performance
>for about 50% of them. It's also got one of the best claims of having
>been done pre-1600 of any Playford: it's in the 1st Edition, the music
>is clearly from an earlier period (and the good tune that is usually
>substituted for the original terrible one is also from an earlier period)
>and it is designed to end so that the entire set of 3 couples honors
>The Presence (ranking nobility) -- marking it as having court dance
>origins. If all SCA groups work at learning dances in about the same
>way that the ones I saw, then it's not surprising they think they are
>simple: they're only doing things that are simple. Sigh.

This is pretty valid criticism. It's true that there are much more
complicated dances in First Playford than we are doing, not only
Step Stately, but Fain I Would and a number of others. On the other
hand, I think that one of the reasons that these aren't taught is that
their complexity lies in their complex pattern, not in step complexity.
This in turn means that if any one of the six people in the Step Stately
set don't know what they're doing, the whole thing falls apart. Most of
the dances we teach can suffer through having a beginner who knows almost
nothing in them (although when you get too many beginners in, it still
breaks down). And I'm not talking just English Country dances here.
Even the bransles which do have complex and fast foot work don't break
down just because someone loses their place. Who cares whether the next
person over can galliard at all? Most of the dances from Caroso and Negri
have tough patterns, but they require so much step knowledge that no
beginner is ever going to be doing them anyway. Still, this is a valid
criticism, and maybe we ought to be working toward some of the more
complicated Playford dances.

Hmmm. I'm of two minds here. The first is, if we're going to try to
convince people to do complex steps, I would rather get them to do Italian
renn. stuff, since that's really the period that we're shooting for. This
isn't meant to denigrate those who are interested in doing ECD with the
baroque steps (I've done some of that myself and it's a great challenge),
but I just don't see it as an area we should be focusing on.

But I will admit that one of the reasons I don't like doing some dances from
the ECD repetoir is that they just don't feel right to me _without_ the
steps, now that I've learned something about how they probably were done.
Particularly many dances from after first Playford, like Hole in the Wall
and Female Saylor, are fine dances with the steps, but really lack something
without them. You know all the bowing and stuff that gets done in Hole in
the Wall to fill all the time that you have for casting and crossing? Well,
none of that is in the original description. If the dance is done with
baroque steps, the steps take up that time because they don't allow you to
cover the ground nearly as quickly.

But I'm interested in the suggestion that we really know what steps were
being done to ECD dances in 1650. As far as I know, Loran in the first
source which actualy goes into steps in the context of ECD (or even describes
baroque steps at all), and it dates to sometime in the 1670's (I think. If
anyone wants an exact date, I will try to dig it up). For those who aren't
familiar with the source, Loran is a frenchman who traveled to England in
the mid to late 17th century, and then came back to France and wrote a
manual dancing which he presented to Louis XIV (in manuscript form, it was
never published, I believe). But there is question in dance history circles
as to whether he was describing what was being done in England, or whether
he took the ideas and patterns from English Country dances and modified or
invented the steps which he suggests using. Certainly by the early 18th
century the english dancing masters are going over to France and learning
steps from the french masters and bringing back french manuals, and what is
in the manuals is clearly an outgrowth of what Loran described. This at
least suggests that the english were doing steps that were somewhat
different prior to this.
>
>elb

Geoffrey Mathias
mjl@rational.rational.com

From: kleber@husc9.harvard.edu (Galen (Gwydden ap Hafgan))
Date: 29 Sep 91 03:50:22 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

Catrin o'r Rhyd For said:
> When the troupe performed, they did so with the intent of recreating the
> manners and the motions and the attitudes of the people who would have
> performed the dances. There is a grace and beauty to their performances.
> If we got a little less polished doing Gathering Peascods in rehearsal,
> Ingrid would chastise us by saying "You're supposed to be in court, not
> the SCA!"

...which prompted Elizabeth Braidwod to respond:

>When I think of participant dancing in period, I think of it as the medieval
>equivalent to a modern country wedding reception. People dancing for the
>pure joy of socializing and moving to the music. Those people don't go
>to rehearsals or even dance practices. And while it may not appear graceful,
>it is certainly fun.
>
>Like I said, I'm no dance expert. But I don't think that grace and beauty
>are the point of the dance for most SCA folk. Now, if you're talking about
>performance dance, that's a different story.
>

These two paragraphs really talk about very different things. The first
is about dancing in period, and while I can't make sweeping generalizations,
to the best of my knowledge, your image of period dancing isn't accurate.
Much of the dancing we do comes from manuscripts specifically describing
court dances, and if you think *that's* not for an audience, I suggest
reading some of the dialogue in Arbeau's _Orchesography_ (sp?)... Arbeau
describes in detail how displaying one's excellence at dancing was an
essential requirement for moving up in the world, at court, and in the good
graces of any member of the opposite sex. Remember also that many of these
dances were done not en masse, as we do them, but by single sets alone
on the floor... and being watched by large crowds of people all of whom
knew the dances as well, if not better, than you did, and would just *love*
to gossip about the mistakes you made! Don't dismiss all these comments by
ascribing them to those boring Italian or French dances that we never
do anyway-- English Country dances in Playford include references to
bows to "the Presence", ie the nobility who was clerely being honored
at the court in question.

Your next paragraph, however, talks about why people dance *in the SCA*.
This, with all due understatement, is *quite* a different matter.
There are those who would be quick to point out (Arval looks about with
"Who, me?" blazoned across his cheif-- er, forehead) that as the SCA is
dedicated to re-creation, the period motivation is the purest calling.
There are far more who would laugh themselves silly at the thought of
anyine believing that the SCA really works that way. I think the only
thing we can do is look at the evidence that no one is debating-- that
many, many SCA dancers are *not* concerned with grace and beauty as much
as with "moving to the music," as you put it. I think it's clear how
little point there is to arguing the two points of view-- they're
fundamentally different outlooks on the SCA as a whole. Catrin has
one remaining telling point, though, when she says:

> And who knows,... Maybe some of the people who watch the piece will
> decide that they'd like to start dancing with care as well as enthusiasm!

I wouldn't hesitate to bet that more of the "grace and beauty" dancers
have been exposed to the "boundless energy" style than the other way
around. Maybe if people saw and/or were taught both, more would want to
work towards both... and the people who already *do* would have more
partners to dance with! :-)

--Galen (Gwydden ap Hafgan) I don't have an overactive
Provost of the Borough of Duncharloch imagination... I have an
--kleber@husc.harvard.edu underactive reality... --EG

From: andrew@bransle.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Draskoy)
Date: 30 Sep 91 02:51:03 GMT
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland

Hmmm - the Rialto appears to be turning into quite the forum for
discussion on dance. Let me add an insight to the ongoing discussion,
and then start up a new thread.

I'm the local SCA dance instructor, and just today started up the practises
again after the summer's lull. Keeping in mind the discussion we've been
having here, I paid careful attention to what and how I was teaching, and
took a whole different approach than last year. My idea was to avoid OOP
dances, and to intersperse basic footwork and dances that used a few complex
steps with dances that are simple, but fun. I also started teaching some
"hard" dances without telling anyone they were hard. (Most of the folks
here have not been exposed to SCA dancing anywhere else, since we're very
isolated, so I had something of a "tabula rasa". Thus, we a make a good
test group.) The result - some beginning and intermediate dancers who
now have a basic grounding in the Renaissance dance of England, France,
and Italy, as well as some historical knowledge and interesting anecdotes
pertaining to the dance and the culture(s) it comes from. I found that
this last was indispensable - knowing as much as possible about the dances
and the context in which they were performed, and some appropriate little
tidbits of stories and trivia, turned some potentially boring dances
into an interesting learning experience. I have decided that while
secondary and tertiary sources can be useful for seeing what other
people do, reading the primary sources, or good translations if need be,
provides the necessary feel and context for learning, teaching, and
*enjoying* these dances. That, and knowing some others who have been
doing this and can help you. (On that note, could some gentles in the
right location please convey my deepest thanks to Baron Patri of Carolingia
Lady Roswitha of L'Isle du Dragon Dormant, and to Guillaume di San Marino
and Gwynedd of Eoforwic, and to Niall and Justin for their teaching at
Pennsics past.) Also, reading primary sources helps you avoid the Dreaded
Dance Myths of the SCA, of which there are a great number. There is
some reputable discussion of dance out there - Justin's "Letter of Dance"
in particular. Subscribe, subscribe, subscribe. (And submit articles!)

I will also say this - having a lull of several months since the last
practises allowed me to do a lot of learning, and created some "distance"
from the previous ways of doing the dances in the minds of the dancers.
This allowed us to re-interpret in what I think is a more authentic manner.
Also, declaring that one aim of the group was to cultivate a core group
of performance dancers gave that little bit of leverage that is sadly
often necessary in the SCA when you want to do things authentically.
Some seemed to resolve to learn enough to perform, and others to respect
this goal and not request OOP dances - especially since there are so many
interesting period dances. (Last year many of the same people were
complaining when I started leaning toward authenticity. Not anymore.
Now they are very enthusiastic.)

Thank you to all on the Rialto who have been discussing dancing - your
thoughts have helped create something good.

Now for the new thread: I've often heard in the SCA that "no one knows
how the reprise was done in the basse dance." Yet Arbeau says;
(translation from Beaumont)

"it occupies four bars or drum-rhythms like the other movements, and you
perform it by slightly shaking the knees, or the feet, or the toes only,
as if your feet trembled. So that it is done with the toes of the right
foot on the first bar, again with the same on the second, then with the
toes of the left foot on the third, and with the right on the fourth."

There's some room for interpretation here, but it's fairly clear.
So... how many people do basse dance reprises this way, and how do you
interpret this if you do?

Consider all of this to be in the humble and fallable opinion of;
Miklos
------
Sandorfia Miklos (That's "Alexander's son Nicolas" in old Magyar).
andrew@bransle.ucs.mun.ca

From: ag1v+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrea B. Gansley-Ortiz)
Date: 30 Sep 91 16:28:15 GMT
Organization: Engineering Design Research Center, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh,
PA

Elizabeth Braidwood writes:
=>And while it may not appear graceful, it is certainly fun....I don't think
=>that grace and beauty are the point of the dance for most SCA folk.

And Dani responds (much shortened by me):
- It's fun, yes, but it's not as much fun as it could and should be.
- (break) And you don't do a dancer a favor if
- you say "Never mind style, you're here to have fun." Style *is* fun.

Exactamento. Well said. I have been dancing since I was (at least) 5.
In every dance form the object was not only to learn the dances, but to
learn them correctly, or gracefully. Or to learn a particular variation
authentically. So when I was part of a flamenco dance troupe and we
were doing a folk dance, the style of what we were doing changed to fit
with the regional style of the dance. Doing a dance sloppily or
'galumping' through a dance to me (i.e. imo) is not fun and indeed very
sad.

Dance is the art of trying to be as beautiful and graceful as possible
while performing 'a series of rhythmic and patterned bodily movements
usually performed to music'*. Webster's also calls dance an art; art
being 'skill aquired by experience, study or observation'.^

I think that many gentles do not realize that dance is a skill and some-
thing at which to work. There is a gentle in my area that had unlearned
rhythm at some point in his life. Through a year of consistently going
to dance practice the gentle relearned rhythm and now is quite the compe-
tant dancer.

(Watch out, pep talk on.)
Another thing forgotten is that everyone has rhythm. Many children, most
especially boys (and whites), are taught from an early age that they are
clutzes and have no rhythm. That's simply untrue. Every move we make and
word we speak is done with rhythm behind it. Try walking without rhythm.
It's extremely difficult to do. When speaking, does one always speak
choppily or is there a flow to the words?

One book on the topic is:
_The Silent Pulse; a search for the perfect rhythm that exists in each
of us_, by George Burr Leonard, NY,NY: dutton 1986.
(pep talk off)

I think that part of what needs to be emphasized when teaching dance
is that Style is Fun. Once that becomes a common notion galumping will
take a back seat. Everyone who wants can learn to dance with rhythm
and style. Rhythm is a natural part of being human, and style is a
natural part of dance.

* (Web 9th ed. p 324)
^ (Ibid. p 104)

Su segura servidora,

Esmeralda la Sabia
Debatable Lands, AEthelmearc, East
*************************************************
It is the wise servant who finds joy in the doing.
Corwin of Darkwater

From: mjl@rutabaga.Rational.COM (Matthew Larsen)
Date: 30 Sep 91 17:22:57 GMT

trifid@agora.uucp (Roadster Racewerks) writes:
>All this talk of early dance, and what is and isn't OOP made me take a look at
>one of our local college libraries, where I found a type of dance I'd never
>seen on the Rialto, the Estampie (stantipes, estampida, stampita, istanpita)
>which it says is a dance of the 13th and 14thc, and "one of the oldest forms of
>instrumental music". The particular example given it dates to the 13th century.

>Since the name derives from the same sources as the English verb "stamp", it
>sounds like it ought to have *some* life to it...

>NicMaoilan, who hates to dance, but is curious about everything...
>trifid@agora.rain.com

While there are a number of very interesting pieces of music with the title
"estampie", there are unfortunately no sources which give us even a hint of
what kind of steps were done to this music. The source in which estampies
are found are, as you note, all 13th and 14th century, and the first real
dance manual which we have is "De Arte Saltandi & Choreas Ducendi" by
Domenico da Piacenza, which dates to about 1450, or at least 50 - 100 years
after estampies were popular. Sigh. Well, maybe someday someone will
discover an old manuscript from the 13th century which is just such a source.
Until then, pictures and the occasional discription of a ball is about all
we have to go on, which isn't really enough for an authoritative
reconstruction.

Geoffrey Mathias
mjl@rational.rational.com

From: DRS@UNCVX1.BITNET ("Dennis R. Sherman")
Date: 30 Sep 91 18:52:00 GMT
Organization: The Internet

I'm going to be a dance snob. Before I get jumped on, please realize that
I do understand that most of the SCA are not stepjocks and are dancing for
the social activity, rather than because they are interested in historical
practice.

Elizabeth Braidwod quotes Catrin o'r Rhyd For's posting on dancing
Renaissance dance outside the SCA and objects to it, finding a criticism
that bothers her.

> There are several clues to what I think is wrong with this paragraph and
> they are: "performed", "performances", "rehearsal" and "serious". I believe
> that most people in the SCA dance for the pure enjoyment of moving in time
> to the music and flirting with their partners. There are not performers,
> there is no audience, there are only participants.

Everyone dancing is performing, for their own enjoyment, the enjoyment of
their partners, and the enjoyment of the people standing around the room
watching. Just because a dance is not announced as "Oyez, everyone pay
attention now, we're going to perform a dance" doesn't mean it isn't a
performance.

Dancing is fun. BUT: we are all assumed to be nobles in the SCA, so the
dance we should be doing is the dance of the nobles in period. The nobles
in period *did* attend dance classes and rehearsals. Dancing well was one
of the skills nobles were expected to acquire.

The dances we do in the SCA are dances of the nobility. (Except for some
of the OOP dances, but that's a different can of worms.) We know about
them because some noble or dance master (who made his living teaching dance
classes) wrote them down. Of course the non-nobility danced - we've got
iconography that illustrates it. But we don't know *what* they danced or
how. The point is that the dances we have were danced historically by
people that *did* attend dance classes and rehearsals, and they knew what
they were doing.

> Like I said, I'm no dance expert. But I don't think that grace and beauty
> are the point of the dance for most SCA folk. Now, if you're talking about

I agree - grace and beauty are not the point of dance for most SCA folk.
Historical accuracy in *anything* is not the point for most SCA folk. Should
we relegate all attempts at doing anything in an historically informed and
correct manner only to explicit performances and competitions - which is
what you seem to be suggesting?

> > And who knows,... Maybe some of the people who watch the piece will
> > decide that they'd like to start dancing with care as well as enthusiasm!
> Implying that we don't dance with care now? Maybe you're right - we don't
> care what we look like, only that we're having fun.

And to carry your (Elizabeth's) implication further:
calligraphy done with a ballpoint pen doesn't matter, because it's kind of
neat to write in that strange handwriting, and you can read and understand
it anyway

poorly fitting garb made with nylon and polyester cloth doesn't matter,
because the clothes are pretty and warm

hot dogs and pizza are OK at feasts, because they taste good and we need
to eat something

As we've said before - there are lots of things that are fun, but they don't
belong in the context of an SCA event. Just because dancing badly is fun
doesn't excuse it - anyone can learn to dance reasonably well, if they work
at it.

Robyyan Torr d'Elandris Dennis R. Sherman
Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill Chapel Hill, NC
Atlantia drs@uncvx1.bitnet

From: Pat.McGregor@um.cc.umich.EDU
Date: 2 Oct 91 17:52:30 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Several of you have asked where to get the book of early playford
dances that my friend here mentioned. Here's a message from her
about how to get the book (and, coincidentally, to access the hundreds
of resources available from the Country Dance and Song Society).

> Aha! One more success for CDSS. BTW, if folks want to (gasp!) buy one,
> they can get it from CDSS at
> 17 New South Street
> Northampton MA 01060
> (413) 584-9913
> Yes I'm an unabashed pusher.
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Erna-Lynne Bogue, Center for Nursing Research
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-0482
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Siobhan Medhbh O'Roarke Pat McGregor
Barony Northwoods / Shire Cynnabar 3638 Greenook Blvd
Internet: SMOR@um.cc.umich.edu Ann Arbor, MI 48103-9143
BITNET: Userw02v@umichum (313) 426-3506

From: branwen@flipper.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams)
Date: 9 Dec 91 22:59:42 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <9112062132.AA23982@inmet.camb.inmet.com> justin@inmet.camb.inmet.COM
(Justin du Coeur MKA Mark Waks) writes:

>Folks, the point is long since moot --
>people are *already* recreating the 20th century. There are plenty
>of small groups around that do small-scale recreation of, say, the
>Roaring 20's.

I went to a dance class last month at which the dance teacher was teaching
the swing, the Charleston, etc. As he taught, he told us where he got the
steps he was teaching. One of the dances started in Harlem in the twenties,
and he explained that even though he knew where it started, and when it
started, he didn't know how they did the dance when it started. He had some
good guesses, but he couldn't honestly say exactly how the dance was done
the first couple of years it was danced. (I guess no one took pictures of
black dancers in Harlem at the time.) This dance started sixty years ago
in our country, and there are people still alive who were alive then, and
no one knows how the dance was done. Compare this to our dance research,
and I'm amazed we have even a clue as to what dances were done at all.

Branwen ferch Emrys
The Mists, the West
--
Karen Williams
branwen@flipper.ras.amdahl.com

Date: 22 Jan 92
From: justin@inmet.camb.inmet.COM (Justin du Coeur MKA Mark Waks)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Internet

Re: The Carolingian Pavan

Deirdre asks:
> What are the origins of the Carolingian Pavan? How long has it been
>in existence? I first encoutered it about three years ago...
> Whose work is it? Is it always done to the music of Belle Qui Tien?

As I understand it:

The Carolingian Pavan was choreographed (in Carolingia, natch) some
15-20 years ago by Master (and now Baron) Patri du Chat Gris. I don't
know for sure that it's older than 1976, although I suspect that it
goes back a year or two before then...

While it is not *necessarily* done to the tune of Belle Qui, it is
usually done that way in practice. This is mainly because Belle Qui
is far and away the easiest-to-obtain pavan music. The dance can be
done to any pavan tune that scans similarly, and I've danced it to
a couple...

-- Justin du Coeur, SSS
Dancemaster-at-Large, Carolingia

Re: 15c basse dance recordings
Date: 6 Feb 92
From: mjl@rutabaga.Rational.COM (Matthew Larsen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

andrew@bransle.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Draskoy) writes:

>Does anyone know of any good recordings of 15th century basse dances?

As Dani points out, basse dance music was improvised, so it is hard to find
recordings of specific dances. But not impossible, since some modern
musicians are able to improvise (or at least write music as it would have
been improvised) in the appropriate style. Unfortunately, there isn't
much, and most of what you do find is a rendition of a specific Ballo,
not a Basse dance, and the value of that music depends on whether your
reconstruction of the Ballo in question matches the guesses that the
musicians have made. But given those caveats, I've found a few CDs over
the years, and here they are:

La Cour du Roi Rene Ensemble Perceval
ARN 68104

Music From the Time of Richard III The York Waits
CD-SDL 364

Music in the Age of Leonardo da Vinci Ensemble Claude-Gervaise
MVCD 1022

Le Moyen Age Catalan Ars Musice de Barcelone
HMA 190051

All of these disks have ~ twenty pieces, of which only four or five
are dance music (I think they all include a version of Spagna in one of
its many forms, but you probably already have that). And of course,
the musicians almost invariably have a different idea about how fast
the music should be played than I do, so it helps to have a variable
speed tape recorder, so you can fix that if you want to use the music.
Oh and the last disk actualy does have a basse dance which isn't some
version of Spagne - it's a dance called Barcelone, from the Brussels
manuscript, and it's even at a reasonable tempo (of course, your idea
of reasonable and mine may differ, but...). Since it's from one of
the Burgundian sources, it isn't exactly the most exciting dance, but
it's at least a nice change from Cassoule.

If anyone has any other disks that have 15th century dance music, I
would love to hear about them too, so please summarize anything you
get via email and post it (or at least send copies to me). If anyone
would like a more detailed description of what's on these disks, let
me know and I'll be happy to provide it.

Geoffrey Mathias
Matt Larsen
mjl@rational.rational.com

Re: 15c basse dance recordings
Date: 6 Feb 92
From: andrew@bransle.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Draskoy)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland

In article <1992Feb06.015418.25130dani@netcom.COM> dani@netcom.COM (Dani Zweig)
writes:
>andrew@bransle.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Draskoy):
>>Does anyone know of any good recordings of 15th century basse dances?
>
>Since this was, musically, an improvisational form, you've got a problem.
>People weren't writing these dances down. (The music, that is.)
>

Well, not exactly. There are 65 15th century basse dances with written
music, and nine more written musical pieces that are presumed to be
(15c) basse dances. (They are all given in Frederick Crane's "Materials
for the Study of the Fifteenth Century Basse Dance") Most of these are
are simply a series of long (four beat) equal valued notes, and obviously
require improvisation in an appropriate style. While this is challenging,
it is certainly not impossible. Timothy McGee discusses the technique
adequately in "Medieval and Renaissance Music - A Performers Guide"
(which is worth it's weight in gold, by the way.) So surely someone
out there must have recorded a reasonable reconstruction of some basse
dance music...

Andrew

Re: 15c basse dance recordings
Date: 6 Feb 92
From: mjl@rutabaga.Rational.COM (Matthew Larsen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

andrew@bransle.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Draskoy) writes:

>In article <1992Feb06.015418.25130dani@netcom.COM> dani@netcom.COM (Dani Zweig)
writes:
>>andrew@bransle.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Draskoy):
>>>Does anyone know of any good recordings of 15th century basse dances?
>>
>>Since this was, musically, an improvisational form, you've got a problem.
>>People weren't writing these dances down. (The music, that is.)
>>

>Well, not exactly. There are 65 15th century basse dances with written
>music, and nine more written musical pieces that are presumed to be
>(15c) basse dances. (They are all given in Frederick Crane's "Materials
>for the Study of the Fifteenth Century Basse Dance") Most of these are
>are simply a series of long (four beat) equal valued notes, and obviously
>require improvisation in an appropriate style. While this is challenging,
>it is certainly not impossible. Timothy McGee discusses the technique
>adequately in "Medieval and Renaissance Music - A Performers Guide"
>(which is worth it's weight in gold, by the way.)

McGee bases most of his discussion of 15th century improvisation on a
dissertation by (I think) Keith Polk entitled "Flemish Wind Bands in the
Fifteenth Century". While McGee's discussion is pretty good (and he
covers a lot of other very useful stuff), if you are really interested
in the theory behind the 15th century style Polk goes into _much_ more
detail. If anyone wants a better citation, I can dig out my copy and
post it.

>So surely someone
>out there must have recorded a reasonable reconstruction of some basse
>dance music...

It would be nice, but there doesn't seem to be much. A lot more ballo
music has been recorded, but even that is pretty scarce.

>Andrew

Geoffrey Mathias
Matt Larsen
mjl@rational.rational.com

Re: Matachin / Les Buffons (sp?) dance
Date: 8 Feb 92
From: mjl@rutabaga.Rational.COM (Matthew Larsen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

andrew@bransle.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Draskoy) writes:

>Does anyone out there dance the Matachin (aka Les Buffons (sp?)) as
>described in Arbeau? I think I've got it mostly figured out, but there
>is one passage that I can't quite make work - the one in which two
>of the dancers are "back-to-back". Has anyone worked this out? I'd
>be interested in hearing from anyone else who does this dance, in any
>case.

I am assuming the figure you are interested in is fifth passage, that is,
the bastion passage. I agree that this figure is the least well
described, most confusing and most open to different interpretations in
the dance. Fortunately, that's what makes dance research interesting :-).
After all, if everything about historical dance were obvious, it wouldn't
be long before it was all cast in concrete, and we wouldn't have anything
to argue about. Arbeau, in his generosity, is one of many authors who
saves us from this fate :-).

Anyway, a few years ago Patri du Chat Gris and I worked out a reconstruction
of Buffens, and then came back to it after six months or a year, and the
only thing that we changed substantialy was the bastion passage. In our
first reconstruction, we made the observation that the description is
basicly the same as the description for the third figure, the 15 cuts
passage, except that in the bastion passage you change after every three
blows rather than after every 15 blows as you do in the 15 cuts passage.
The only difference is that the changes go the other way around the set,
that is, A changes with D and C with B in the first change of the bastion
passage, while A changes with B and C with D in the 15 cuts passage.
This isn't a real difference since it has to do with the number of cuts,
and you just change with whoever you swing at last. Since B and D are
told to face outward in the 15 cuts passage, they are already to some
extent "back to back" and we considered this sufficient.

But we (like you) were somewhat bothered by the "back to back" passage,
and considered it a little unlikely that figure five was so similar to
figure three, and the next time we looked at the dance we decided to
try to come up with some other interpretation. We tried a couple of
different things. We felt we had to have some figure that would look
like
C D C
D rather than
B
A A B

Our first attempt was based on the observation that when Arbeau says
that the dancers should change places, he doesn't really say who changes
with who. So we tried changing A and C and B and D, which goes to the
following formation
B
A
C
D
This works, and seemed a little better than our first reconstruction,
but it involved a little too much leaping for us to be happy with, and
it also meant that we were interpreting change places differently in
different parts of the dance, which made us uncomfortable. We tried a
few more things, but eventualy we came back to our original reconstruction
but using the new formation. So when it's time to change places, the
figure goes to
B
A
C
D
And so on. It is still a little too similar to the 15 cuts passage, but
it is enough better that we were willing to live with it. I hope this
helps, and if anything in my description isn't clear, feel free to ask
for a clarification. Also if you (or anyone else out there) has other
interpretations that you think are interesting, please present them. As
I said, I'm not entirely happy with this, and I'm open to any suggestions
that might make it a better reconstruction.

Also, I should add, in the interests of honesty, that we never did perform
either the 15 cuts passage or the bastions passage with the step that
Arbeau gives. We did it a few times in practice, and convinced ourselves
that we could work up to it with a little time, but the event that we were
doing it at came up too soon, and we didn't feel confident enough to
perform it that way. Too many sticks flying around and all that. Anyway,
good luck, and have fun with your reconstruction.

Geoffrey Mathias
Matt Larsen
mjl@rational.rational.com

Re: Matachin / Les Buffons (sp?) dance
Date: 10 Feb 92
From: andrew@bransle.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Draskoy)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland

In response to my query about the bastion (fifth) passage in Les Bouffons,
Geoffrey Mathias writes:

>Our first attempt was based on the observation that when Arbeau says
>that the dancers should change places, he doesn't really say who changes
>with who. So we tried changing A and C and B and D, which goes to the
>following formation
> B
> A
> C
> D
>This works, and seemed a little better than our first reconstruction,
>but it involved a little too much leaping for us to be happy with, and
>it also meant that we were interpreting change places differently in
>different parts of the dance, which made us uncomfortable. We tried a
>few more things, but eventualy we came back to our original reconstruction
>but using the new formation. So when it's time to change places, the
>figure goes to
> B
> A
> C
> D
>And so on.

We tried out a couple of variants of the Bastion passage at our Sunday
practice. The first was based on a reconstruction from the London Pro
Musica Renaissance Dance Book, as suggested to me by Dafydd y Peireannydd.
This works according to the literal instructions, but B&D always end up
back to back, which doesn't seem to me to be as symmetrical as the rest
of the dance.

D C >>> A B >>> B A >>> C D >>> D C
A B >>> D C >>> C D >>> B A >>> A B

We also tried it out such that A&C alternately ended up back to back.
To do this and still have A fighting mainly D, and then mainly A vs. B,
etc, as in the description, we had to add a sort of half turn after
changing places into the centre. E.g. for the first change, A&D

D C >>> C B >>> B A >>> A D >>> D C
A B >>> D A >>> C D >>> B C >>> A B

This involves more work, but seems truer to the spirit of the dance.
The dancers all decided that they liked this version better, in any case.

This at first seems to have the same problems as Geoffrey Mathias
& Patri du Chat Gris's sec