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Turkey-msg - 10/24/15


Period Turkey. Culture, history.


NOTE: See also the files: Byzantine-msg, fd-Turkey-msg, fd-Ottn-Turks-msg, fd-Hungary-msg, Middle-East-msg, ME-feasts-msg, ME-dance-msg, turkeys-msg, hummus-msg, ME-revel-fds-art.





This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.


This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org


I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.


The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.


Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).


Thank you,

   Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                         Stefan at florilegium.org



Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 19:49:38 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - turkish food in the North


> At 3:16 PM -0400 5/24/99, Varju at aol.com wrote:

> >The Turks arrived into Asia Minor at a much later

> >date, wiping out what remained of the Byzantine Empire.  They established the

> >Ottoman Empire which expanded through much of the near and far east and as

> >far north as Hungary by 1527.

> I think you are confusing the Turks in general with the Ottoman Turks.

> Other groups, especially the Seljuks, came much earlier; when the First

> Crusade went through Anatolia, it was fighting Turks. I'm not sure if the

> earliest Turkish incursions in Anatolia were as early as the Magyar

> incursions, but they can't have been a lot later.

> David/Cariadoc


The original Turks were people who spoke Turkic, the tribes who inhabited

Turkistan, the area between the Caspian and China, the Aral and Afganistan.

Beginning in the 9th Century, some of these tribes moved into the Byzantine

Empire and Central Europe.  This migration was the one that forced the

Magyars from the Caucasus to Hungary.


In the 11th Century, the Seljuk Turks conquered and established a dynasty

which ruled Turkistan and Asia Minor.  The Seljuk fortunes waned in the 13th

Century and their empire broke up into a number of Turkish states.  The

Ottomans began their expansion as the Seljuk Empire collapsed and by the

14th Century, they had established the Ottoman Empire.  The dynasty was

formally established in 1290.  On March 3, 1924, Kemal Mustafa, president of

Turkey, abolished the caliphate and banished all members of the House of

Osman, formally terminating the Ottoman rule.





Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 02:59:54 EDT

From: Varju at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - turkish food in the North


According to Stuart Legg in _The Barbarians of Asia_ the Seljuk Turks began

their push into the Byzantine Empire in the mid 1000's.  The Magyars arrived

in 895 CE were defeated in the Battle of the Lechfield in 955 CE and began to

accept Christianity aroun 1000 CE.


I will have to check, but I believe the Ottoman Turks may be the decendants

of the Seljuk Turks, but i need to double check my sources on that one.





From: otsisto <otsisto at SOCKET.NET>

Date: February 5, 2010 4:58:57 PM CST

To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

Subject: [CALONTIR] turkish 1494-5


I keep hearing that there is little to no examples prior to late 1500s. Was

looking for something else when I came across it.

This is a drawing by Durer of three men from the painting Corpus Cristi

Procession in the Piazza San Marko by Bellini






From: otsisto <otsisto at SOCKET.NET>

Date: February 7, 2010 1:10:25 AM CST

To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] turkish 1494-5


I did not see that, I was going by the museums info.


Albrecht Dürer, Three Orientals, a drawing

Venice, about AD 1494-5

This drawing is based on three figures in the background of the painting Corpus Christi Procession in the Piazza San Marco by the Venetian artist Gentile Bellini (1429?-1507), signed and dated 1496 (Venice, Accademia). Dürer must have known the painting either through preparatory drawings or through seeing the painting in course of preparation in Bellini's studio.

In correspondence with his friend Willibald Pirckheimer during his second stay in Venice, Dürer relates how Gentile's son, Giovanni, was one of the very few artists in the city who had shown friendship towards him, so it seems very likely that Dürer visited the Bellini workshop.

G. Bartrum (ed.), Albrecht Dürer and his legacy: (London and N.J., The British Museum Press and Princeton University Press, 2002)

And the date isn't that noticable, at least to me. You must have sharper eyes then me.

-----Original Message-----

Doesn't it clearly say 1514 on the top of the page?  


> Procession in the Piazza San Marko by Bellini

> http://tinyurl.com/yalxttf

> De



From: Mathurin Kerbusso <mathurin at CALONSOUND.INFO>

Date: February 7, 2010 7:19:44 AM CST

To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] turkish 1494-5


otsisto wrote:

<<< I did not see that, I was going by the museums info.

http://tinyurl.com/y8zew2u >>>


So Albrecht Dürer (1471–1528) made a drawing (1514) based on detail of a

painting (1494-5) by Gentile Bellini (1429-1507)


Any one of which dates, not to mention all of them, certainly places the

image far earlier than "late 1500s", and is an exciting discovery. Thanks

for sharing it.





From: gary phillips <faramach at CHARTER.NET>

Date: February 7, 2010 11:43:04 AM CST

To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] turkish 1494-5


Following De's link to the British Museum also netted me this image of a Turkish woman, drawn by Gentile Bellini c. 1480:



Fantastic! Useful all around.





Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 08:23:11 -0400

From: Elaine Koogler <kiridono at gmail.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sixteenth Century Turkish


On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 12:28 AM, Ian Kusz <sprucebranch at gmail.com> wrote:

<<< sorry, I meant medieval/viking age Turkey.  I'm unclear on the terminology. >>>


Probably the word you're looking for is Seljuk...a Turcoman tribe that set

up their government in Iran in the 11th c. and later defeated the Byzantine

armies and established a peace with Constantinople. The great Seljuk empire

went into decline and minor clans split up areas of Anatolia, including

Constantinople, now known as Istanbul.  In the 14th c. a minor chieftan

drove the Mongols out and established the Ottoman empire.  It was the

Byzantines, however, who had the Norse Varangian guard.


This is rather sketchy...and you can find a better summary at






Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 20:37:10 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Travel accounts to Turkey


I would mention that the English published a number of these travel  

Accounts in the 17th century. You might already find them translated.




Those with access to EEBO might look for such titles as follow:


A description of the grand signour's seraglio or Turkish emperours  

court [edited] by John Greaves.  Author: Bon, Ottaviano, 1552-1623.  

Publication Info: London : Printed for Jo. Ridley, 1653.


Headings to look for: [Harem] [Turkey -- Court and courtiers]  

[Istanbul (Turkey) -- Description]




The four epistles of A.G. Busbequius concerning his embassy into  

Turkey being remarks upon the religion, customs, riches, strength and  

government of that people : as also a description of their chief  

cities, and places of trade and commerce : to which is added, his  

advice how to manage war against the Turks. Author: Busbecq, Ogier  

Ghislain de, 1522-1592. Publication Info: London : Printed for J.  

Taylor ... and J. Wyat ..., 1694.


The author died a century before publication in this case.




The six voyages of John Baptista Tavernier, Baron of Aubonne through  

Turky, into Persia and the East-Indies, for the space of forty years  

giving an account of the present state of those countries, viz. of the  

religion, government, customs, and commerce of every country, and the  

figures, weight, and value of the money currant all over Asia : to  

which is added A new description of the Seraglio


Tavernier, Jean-Baptiste, 1605-1689., Phillips, John, 1631-1706., Cox,  



London: Printed by William Godbid for Robert Littlebury ... and Moses  

Pitt ...1677.



Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 07:24:52 -0700

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: [Sca-cooks] 10th-13th century Turkish was Sixteenth Century



Ian asked:

<< What do we have for earlier Turkish? >>


I replied:

<< Which ones? As i mentioned in a previous message there are so many in so

many centuries... >>


Ian Kusz answered:

<< anything in, say, early medieval/viking, say, 900-1200?

then explained:

sorry, I meant medieval/viking age Turkey. I'm unclear on the terminology. >>


I will assume that what you mean by Turkey is the boundaries of

modern Turkey, since there was no Turkey before the Ottomans


It also depends on whether you mean the European part of modern

Turkey or Anatolia, the Asian part of modern Turkey.


The European part was controlled by the Eastern Roman Empire, known

beginning in the 19th century as Byzantium, throughout the time

period you ask about.


And in the 10th c. (900s) much of Anatolia was under the control of

Byzantium, and this was the case through much of the 11th c.


By the late 11th c., however, most of Anatolia was controlled by the

Empire of the Seljuk Turks, although Byzantium remained in control of

parts of the north and west.


In the early 13th c. (1200s) northern and western Anatolia were still

controlled by Byzantium. Central and Eastern Anatolia were ruled by

the Seljuk Sultanate of Rum. And southern Anatolia was known as

Little Armenia, aka the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, created by

Armenian refugees fleeing the Seljuk Turkish invasion of Armenia.


By the end of the 13th c (1200s) Anatolia was divided up among

Byzantium (not much but still hanging on in bits of the north and

west), the much reduced Seljuk Sultanate of Rum in the east, around a

dozen different Turkic tribal groups throughout the middle and north,

a tiny bit remaining of Little Armenia in the southeast, and a finger

of the Perso-Turco-Mongol Il-Khanate extending along the south.


And finally, we have very limited information about food in any of

these times and cultures.


Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]

the persona formerly known as Anahita



Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 23:19:47 +0000 (GMT)

From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Sixteenth Century Turkish / Picture of a Turkish

        Imperial Cook 1570


On the site mentioned earlier today, there is also a 1570 codex depicting various kinds of personalities and their clothes.


As far as I can see, one of the pages reads:


?Allso seind des T?rggischen Kaysers K?ch bekhlaidet /.? (In this way the cooks of the Turkish Emperor are clothed/dressed)



The image of the person is here:






Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 11:20:10 -0700 (PDT)

From: H Westerlund-Davis <yaini0625 at yahoo.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] 10th-13th century Turkish was Sixteenth

        Century       Turkish


The term "Viking" is a very broad term for a culture that was has its roots in originally in Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Iceland. It sounds like Viking and Turkish can mean a broad area of history. Did you mean Vikings in the Turkish Empire?


From "Medieval Scandinavia: An Encyclopedia by Phillip Pulsiano and Kirsten Wolf. Kirsten Wolf is a professor of Scandinavian studies at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. The book is out of print, but if you can pick one up it is a wealth of information on Medieval Scandinavia.


pg. 17 Arabic Sources for Scandinavians

reference: ar-R?s  (?r-Rusiya) -Russia and easterly areas

reference: al-majus- Andalusian or North African Sources meaning "Vikings of the West."

pg 18 Ibn Khurradadhbih (ca. 825-912) writes about how Rus merchants carry their wares (furs and swords) along the Rusian Rivers to the Black Sea and the Caspian-travel from the Caspian to Jurjan and then to Baghdad.


There is precious little actually written down in a way of "cook books" related to Medieval Scandinavia cooking. What is written down comes from Iceland or Gotland after 1200. What we do know is also from archaeological digs. York is the most famous and the Viking Answer Lady references it in her articles/sites. I have two research documents from the dig in Dublin, Ireland. I am also translating the finds in Sweden and Northern Russia. As Russia and the Ukraine opens up more research is being done in Moscow, Staria Lodoga (St. Petersbugs) and else where there is more information coming out of the significant influences of the Vikings in East. Making any connections during this time is like piecing a puzzle together.





Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 22:01:20 +1000

From: Miriam Staples <miriam.staples at gmail.com>

Subject: [Lochac] A period book by Guillaume Postel

To: lochac at lochac.sca.org


I was doing some research into the Ottoman Empire and European

eye-witness accounts and I found this-





It is a scan of the book, but it is entirely in french. 16th Century french.


Anyone interested in translating it?


Miriam bat Shimeon



Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 17:38:20 +0000

From: "Groff, Garth (ggg9y)" <ggg9y at virginia.edu>

To: "isenfir at virginia.edu" <isenfir at virginia.edu>,

        "atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org"

        <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>,      "Stefan li Rous

        <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com> (StefanliRous at austin.rr.com)"

        <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>

Subject: [MR] Two Books on Ottomans


Noble Friends, especially any Turks among us,


The University of Virginia library has just received two book on the Ottoman Empire with some material extending back into our time period that might be of great use to anyone who portrays a character in that culture.


ACCOUNTING METHOD USED BY OTTOMANS FOR 500 YEARS: STAIRS (MERDIBAN METHOD) by Cemal Elitas (ISBN 9789758195152; our call # HF5616 .T9 O8613 2008). This might be esoteric, but it includes considerable discussion of commerce in the Ottoman Empire. Included is information of taxation, land tenure, economics, etc. Most of the book is in English, but there are some sections in Arabic script. This might provide great background for anyone who portrays an Ottoman merchant for government official.


ANIMALS AND PEOPLE IN THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE, edited by Suraiya Faroqhi (ISBN 9789756372432; our call # SF55 .T95 A55 2010). This work discusses various aspects of animals in the Ottoman Empire. Included is material on how animals were treated under Islamic law, as well as information on animal husbandry, and wild animals. Of particular interest are some 30 plates, many in brilliant color, which show people of various classes in their costumes. My favorite is what appears to be an Albanian butcher feeding his cats. The cats seem to have moustaches as regal as the man's.


You should be able to borrow either of these books via interlibrary loan through your local branch library.


Lord Mungo Napier, The Archer of Mallard Lodge



Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 15:57:27 -0400

From: Garth Groff via Atlantia <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>

To: Merry Rose <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>

Subject: [MR] Book on Dervishes and Turkish Costume


New at UVA's Alderman Library: _Dervi? ?eyizi, T?rkiye'de tarikat

giyim-ku?am tarihi_ by Nurhan Atasoy (ISBN 9751731747; our call number

GT1400 .A83 2005). The title of this marvelous books roughly translates

as 'Dervish Dowery', and as the title implies, is all about the Dervish

sect of Turkey. This is a book entirely in Turkish (which mercifully

uses roman script, more or less). Don't read Turkish? Neither do I, but

I still catalog Turkish books from time to time (how is a trade secret).


You don't need to read the language to appreciate the lavish

illustrations, many in color. Some are paintings of a style that looks

like they might be from the medieval period, some are photos are from

the 19th century on, and there are many full-color modern photos as

well. Of particular interest to Scadians of Middle-eastern personas are

the photos of various hats, turbans, gowns and accessories. Many of the

gown photos (apparently from museum collections by their condition and

presentation) are accompanied by scaled patterns that could be used to

make acceptable replicas for garb purposes. I know little about

Middle-eastern costume, and no doubt styles changed from time to time

and culture to culture, but these appear to be typical of a number of

places and eras. On this, I will bow to our costume experts. Over-all,

this book will be of great interest, and I think great use, to

Middle-eastern costumers.


Lord Mungo Napier, Shire of Isenfir's Unofficial Librarian


(aka Garth Groff, UVA Library Metadata Specialist, or Cataloger to those

of the old school)


<the end>

Formatting copyright © Mark S. Harris (THLord Stefan li Rous).
All other copyrights are property of the original article and message authors.

Comments to the Editor: stefan at florilegium.org