fd-Hungary-msg - 10/29/16
Food of period Hungary. Magyar food.
NOTE: See also the files: Hungary-msg, fd-Byzantine-msg, fd-Turkey-msg, Middle-East-msg, Byzantine-msg, peppers-msg, Gypsies-msg, fd-Poland-msg.
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 12:10:56 EDT
From: Varju at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - period Hungarian dishes
There are no commonly available sources of period Hungarian recipies. there
are two manuscripts at the Sechenyi Library in Budapest that are believed to
have been written before 1600 and there is a manuscript in Germany that has
has four recipies from the last 1400s. _The Cuisine of Hungary_ by George
Lang discusses these few sources and gives a few recipies but not anything
substantial. I have worked out one of those recipies, Savanyu Vetrece.
Noemi
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 02:50:22 EDT
From: Varju at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - period Hungarian dishes
keith.78 at osu.edu writes:
<< Could you please give more information on these two books. I can perhaps get
them through interlibrary loan and ask the german dept for help translating.
>>
Hmmm. . .which two? I mentioned three, only one of which may be in German.
Lang never gives the titles for these books in the text. He does state that
the earliest, the codex from the 1400's is in the Munich State Library, but
that may not be true at this time.
Duke Cariadoc may have more information on the two cookbooks in the Szechenyi
Library. My really fuzzy recollection is that those may be in Hungarian. . .
Noemi
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 18:51:05 +0100
From: Thomas Gloning <Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de>
Subject: SC - period Hungarian dishes
<<< I am assembling an event bid with a Hungarian theme. Does anyone
know of sources for period Hungarian dishes? >>>
THere are several 'hungarian' dishes in German cookbooks. They (or some
of them) are mentioned by Wiswe in his 'Kulturgeschichte der Kochkunst'
on p. 108. On this page you also find a small facsimile of a manuscript
in Munich from 1548; could be the one, someone mentioned earlier (it is
the 'Codex germanicus monacensis 349, here fol. 118r). Maybe I can look
for some texts later (maybe not).
THen there is a 14th century recipe in the Italian 'Libro di cucina' ed.
by Frati (and later by Faccioli): Torta ungaresca per XII persone.
(Frati p. 59; also mentioned by Wiswe)
Then, there are many hungarian recipes in Rumpolt!
Then, there is a recipe called 'Alia torta pro Ungaris et Bohemis' in
the 'Registre de Cuisine' de Jean de Bockenheim, edited by Laurioux (the
exact titles of all these books are in my biblioagraphy at
http://www.uni-giessen.de/~g909/cookbib.htm).
Thomas
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 23:41:39 +0100
From: Thomas Gloning <Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de>
Subject: SC - Re: period Hungarian dishes
Here is a somewhat more detailed list of some Hungarian dishes in some
non-hungarian cookbooks:
14th century/ 15th century
- -- Frati p. 59 = Faccioli I, 97-98 (Torta ungaresca per XII persone)
- -- Jean de Bockenheim, Registrum coquinae, c. 1430-50, ed. Laurioux
1988, Nr. 36 (Alia basteda pro magnatis; the ‘magnates’ were the
aristocrats in Poland and Hungary), Nr. 37 (Alia torta pro Ungaris et
Bohemis)
16th century
- -- Philipina Welser (1545) 141.17 (ain hecht ein machen auf vngeresch)
- -- Sabina Welser (1553) S.24.12 & Nr. 191 (hecht jn ainer vngerischen brie)
- -- Heidelberg: Codex palatinus germanicus 293, fol. 26r (Wiswe 108 &
note; not seen myself).
- -- Heidelberg: Codex palatinus germanicus 555, fol. 111r (Wiswe 108 &
note; not seen myself).
- -- München: Codex germanicus monacensis 349 (1548) fol. 118r ss.
(Vermerk ein guede kunst von vngrischen oder pechamyschen essen zu
kochen; Wiswe 108 & note; according to Wiswe "wenig ergiebig"; seen one
page in Wiswe's book, but not yet deciphered).
- -- Kleines Klosterkochbuch (ed. Otto, Leipzig 1856; not a very reliable
source; the text is somewhat modernized, the manuscript was not found
any more in later times):
p. 11 (Ein Hecht auf hungarisch zu sieden),
p. 31 (Wilde oder zahme Gänse, Enten und Kapphanen auf hungarisch anzurichten),
p. 34 (Junge Hühner auf hungrisch),
p. 65 (Eine Gallart von jungen Ferkeln auf hungarisch zu bereiten),
p. 67 (Ein Rinderbraten auf Hungarisch),
p. 113 (Sauerkraut auf hungarisch anzurichten).
- -- Anna Wecker (1598), p. 224f. (Ein Koppen vnd andere Hünerqualen oder
Schlegel/ Kälbern oder Schepsen auff Vngrisch zu bereiten).
- -- Rumpolt, Ein new Kochbuch, 1581
hungarian recipes or characteristics mentioned on fol. 18r, 33v, 38r,
40r, 42r, 49v, 53r, 81r, 82v, 85v, 97v, 110r, 106r etc. (according to
Wiswe 108; you might also search for „vnger“ in our online-passages from
Rumpolt, to see some of the mentioned recipes)
- -- Meßisbugo, Libro novo, 1557
fol. 17r (Trutte in vino alla Ongaresca; only mentioned; no recipe? or 105v??)
fol. 107r (A fare potaccio di pesce, all’ Ongaresca)
17th century
- -- Grazer Kochbuch 1686, 97.1 (Ungarisch überschlagenes Pastetel)
- -- Wolfenbüttel: Codex Guelferbytanus 51 Aug. 4°, fol. 218v; 223r (Wiswe
108 & note; not seen myself)
- -- Coler (1665) p. 50 & 57 (Wiswe 108 & notes; not seen myself)
18th century
- -- Riedlinger Kochbuch 1710, 33.9 // 52.14 // 54.11 // 56.11 // 231.13
(ein guet vngerische Suppen vber einen Hächten/ einen Karpffen/ ein
Hienel)
- -- Riedlinger Kochbuch 1710, 73.9 (ungerischer Kopaun)
****
I can't key in and translate all these recipes at present. But here is
the recipe from the oldest text, the 'libro per cuoco' (Ms. 15th
century, text 14th century):
"CXIII Torta ungaresca per xii persone.
Toy uno capone ben grasso e toy uno lombolo de porco grande e do cepole
grosse e meza libra de specie dolze e fine e toy tre libre d'onto fresco
che non sia salato e toy tanta farina che sia tre pani, la megliore, che
tu poy avere; e toy lo capone e 'l lombolo del porco e fane morselletti
e de le do cepole fane morselletti e meti queste cosse a sofriger
[soflriger_Ed.] in lo songiazo fresco in quantità; e de le dite dolze e
zafarano assay e un poco de sale; e quando è ben sofrito mitige un
bichiero d'aqua ch'el se cocha senza compimento, e toli la farina e
destruta con aqua fresca insalata con un pocho de salina e menala molto
forte, e quando è ben menato, toy uno testo de ramo ben stagnato e
onzilo ben de questo lardo fresco che tu ay. Toy la pasta e menala e
sotiliata con una mescola e fala sotille, e siate due a traer sotille a
foglio con lardo e fane infina a XVIII fogli, et postea toy questo
batuto de capon e de altre cosse fane uno solo suso questa metà, e poni
tante altre foglie sopra questo solo ben inaffiato ziaschuno per si di
lardo e fa una crosta de sopra per vardia. Questa torta vole poco foco
sotto e ben foco di sopra, e poy fare per piu, o per men, toiando le
cosse a questa mesura." (I hope the special characters go through.)
If you know of other recipes of this kind, please, let me know.
Thomas
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 00:27:41 -0400
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: period Hungarian dishes
And it came to pass on 20 Oct 99,, that Thomas Gloning wrote:
> Here is a somewhat more detailed list of some Hungarian dishes in some
> non-hungarian cookbooks:
[snip]
> If you know of other recipes of this kind, please, let me know.
There is one recipe in _Libro Del Arte De Cozina_, Diego Granado,
Madrid, 1599. "Para hazer escudilla de leche, vulgarmente llamada
Vngaresca" -- "To make a dish of milk, commonly called Hungarian".
It's basically a custard, made with milk, eggs, butter, and sugar, and
optionally flavored with saffron and cinnamon. An alternate version
contains orange juice, cinnamon, ginger, saffron, and rose water. I have
no idea if this is genuinely Hungarian -- the ingredients seem consistent
with other Spanish recipes of the period.
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 02:50:36 EDT
From: Varju at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Re: period Hungarian dishes
<<THere are several 'hungarian' dishes in German cookbooks.>>
I would really wonder if these are actually Hungarian recipies or are what
Germans of the time thought Hungarians ate.
<< -- München: Codex germanicus monacensis 349 (1548) fol. 118r ss.
(Vermerk ein guede kunst von vngrischen oder pechamyschen essen zu
kochen; Wiswe 108 & note; according to Wiswe "wenig ergiebig"; seen one
page in Wiswe's book, but not yet deciphered). >>
It is possible this is the one that Lang mentions, although the date is a bit
late, the one he discusses is recipies from the wedding feast of Hollos
Mattyas (Matthias Corvinus) in 1475.
Noemi
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:49:25 -0000
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: period Hungarian dishes
Thomas wrote:
>If you know of other recipes of this kind, please, let me know.
The 1616 Danish cookbook has a few recipes "in the Hungarian manner" - for
spinach, pike and the following one:
Lamme Stiek / Ender eller Kapuner paa Ungerske
Steeg dem først smuckt møre oc giør siden et saad offuer dem / saaledis: Tag
Vijnedicke oc vijn / sla Æg iblant / oc giør en god suppe aff / leg der udi
en heel HuideLøg eller to / oc lad vel siude der met / red det til med
Kanelbarck / Muskater / Muskateblomer / Ingefer / Saphran / oc giff det en
liffig smag. Naar forbemelte Ful er vel steegt / saa leg den paa Fadet / oc
giff samme Saad der offuer / oc bær det frem.
Lamb, duck or capons in the Hungarian manner
First fry them nicely tender and then make a sauce to pour over this way:
Take wine vinegar and wine, beat an egg into this and make a good soup. Add
a whole white onion or two and let it boil in the sauce. Add cinnamon,
nutmeg, mace, ginger and saffron to taste. When the meat or bird is well
cooked, then lay it on a plate, pour the sauce over it and serve forth.
Nanna
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:29:54 +0100
From: Thomas Gloning <Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de>
Subject: SC - period Hungarian dishes
Noemi wrote:
<< <THere are several 'hungarian' dishes in German cookbooks.>
I would really wonder if these are actually Hungarian recipies or are
what Germans of the time thought Hungarians ate. >>
Absolutely true, that one has to be very careful about the value of
these sources. I cannot comment on that as I do not know 'real'
hungarian recipes of that time. I can imagine, that at least the
documents of professional cooks like Jean de Bockenheim or Marx Rumpolt
should be somehow reliable, because they were _cooking for_ people of
different nations, e.g. at diplomatic meetings, and because they had a
chance to meet colleagues from other countries.
<< <München: Codex germanicus monacensis 349 (1548) fol. 118r ss.
(Vermerk ein guede kunst von vngrischen oder pechamyschen essen zu
kochen ...)>.
It is possible this is the one that Lang mentions, although the date is
a bit late, the one he discusses is recipies from the wedding feast of
Hollos Mattyas (Matthias Corvinus) in 1475. >>
Wiswe dates the text in 1548, however, in the list of manuscripts in 'Du
manuscrit a table', the same manuscript (cgm 349) is dated earlier: in
the second half of the 15th century. So the dates given by either can be
wrong. THe titles of the 4 recipes according to 'Du manuscrit':
- -- Karpfen Im furhesß und ein safran prúe
- -- Inber prúe und praden kopaún
- -- nágel prúe zw machen an pachen hecht oder Karpen
- -- Peffer zw wilpradt
The first two are in the Wiswe-picture. If I find my magnifying glass, I
can try and transcribe them (the picture is very small).
Let me add one thing from the 10th century: the earliest source for
Hungarian cuisine seems to be the chronicle of a monk, called Heribald,
in Sanct Gallen (the story is told in: M. Horvath, Die Paprika-Kueche.
Ein ungarisches Kochbuch, Stuttgart 1957). He describes, how Hungarian
soldiers attacked the monastery in 925. All the monks were gone before,
except him. He said that he was treated very kind by them. In the
evening they grilled a well seasened ox, that, according to Heribald,
was _very_ tasty...
Thomas
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:35:57 EDT
From: Varju at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - period Hungarian dishes
Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de writes:
<< Wiswe dates the text in 1548, however, in the list of manuscripts in 'Du
manuscrit a table', the same manuscript (cgm 349) is dated earlier: in
the second half of the 15th century. >>
I guess the real key then is to get someone to read the manuscript and see if
it mentions the wedding feast of Matthias Corvinus.
<<THe titles of the 4 recipes according to 'Du manuscrit':
- -- Karpfen Im furhesß und ein safran prúe
- -- Inber prúe und praden kopaún
- -- nágel prúe zw machen an pachen hecht oder Karpen
- -- Peffer zw wilpradt>>
This might actually be of some help since Lang gives descriptions of three of
the recipies. The best description he gives(good enough that I've recreated
the recipe) is for Savanyu Vetrece (Sour Vetrece) which is beef in a sour
cream and vinegar sauce. The other two he gives are as follows, "The carp
dish at the feast was prepared as follows: First the fish was roasted; then
gingerbread and white rolls were cooked in wine and pressed through a sieve;
then apple and pear added and agian the whole thing pureed. Finally the
roast fish was placed in the middle of this puree and served with saffron
honey. Another dish was capon in ginger juice thickened with the dough of a
white roll cooked in wine peppered and properly salted." If the two reciepes
you have access two resemble any of these at all then it is the right source.
The final reference you give is one I've seen before and is a fine
description of the early Magyar raiding parties. . .
Noemi
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 01:03:52 +0100
From: Thomas Gloning <Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de>
Subject: SC - information access / Hungarian cuisine
"Of course, many other people are able to use the collection for various
research projects." This is quoted from an article by Louis Szathmary
about "The Szathmary Culinary Archives", a collection of about 18.000
cookbooks and related culinary material. If I understood correctly, part
of this collection was donated to the University of Iowa and is now part
of their special collections; the other part seems to be housed "above
my restaurant (The Bakery) in Chicago" (I may have got that wrong).
The Szathmary collection seems to be especially strong in Hungarian
cookbooks ("... contains just about every cookbook ever printed in
Hungary"). Szathmary says that Marx Rumpolt (the author of the famous
'Ein new Kochbuch', 1581) is an Hungarian. I didn't recall that, so I
reread Rumpolt's preface. Rumpolt says, that he was "an vieler Herrn
Höfen" and that he learned about the cuisines of "Jtalien/ Niderlanden/
Reussen/ Preussen/ Polen/ Vngern/ Böhem/ Osterreich vnd Teutschlandt".
And, yes, he says that he is "ein geborner Vnger", who had to leave the
land when he was young because of the Turkish invasion in that time.
Thus, it seems to me that we can take Rumpolt's recipes 'in an Hungarian
style' to be somewhat more close to Hungarian cuisine than the Hungarian
style recipes of other collections.
Louis Szathmary mentions another interesting document in his collection:
"a leather-covered document, handwritten on vellum in Hungary circa
1490".
Looking from Europe, it seems that Chicago has at least two good
culinary collections to visit (the other one being the John Crerar
Library). If I ever drop by there ...
Here is the URL of the four pages portrait of "The Szathmary Culinary
Archives":
http://www.lib.uiowa.edu/spec-coll/Bai/szathmary.htm
Thomas
(I am still collecting 'Hungarian recipes from non-Hungarian sources' to
put on the web sometimes in the new year; contributions are welcome.)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:51:23 -0500
From: Sandra Kisner <sjk3 at admin.is.cornell.edu>
Subject: SC - BMR: Laszlovszky, ed., Tender Meat under the Saddle (Berend)
I didn't think I should post the entire review to the list, but I will forward
it to anyone who is interested. Berend was rather disappointed with the book.
Sandra Kisner
sjk3 at cornell.edu
****
Jozsef Laszlovszky, ed. "Tender Meat under the Saddle:
Customs of Eating, Drinking and Hospitality among Conquering
Hungarians and Nomadic Peoples". Medium Aevum Quotidianum
sonderband 7. Krems: Medium Aevum Quotidianum, 1998. ISBN 3-
90-1094-10-5.
Reviewed by Nora Berend
Goldsmiths College, University of London
hss01nb at gold.ac.uk
The volume contains seven articles that have been given as
papers at a conference organized by the College of Commerce,
Catering and Tourism, the Society of Old Hungarian Culture and
the Department of Medieval and Postmedieval Archaeology, Eotvos
Lorand University, Budapest, Hungary. The articles have been
translated into English by Alice M. Choyke and Laszlo
Bartosiewicz. The book deals with various aspects of the eating
habits of pastoral nomads of the Hungarian migration period
(that culminated in the Hungarian conquest in the late ninth
century) and the Middle Ages. Its emphasis is on what one can
learn from archaeological remains.
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 03:17:01 +0100
From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: SC - Help for Eastern European Feast
<< ... that there are various recipes in Marx Rumpolt that are listed as
being "Hungarian". >>
Yes, there are. As in several other cookbooks. Here is a somewhat
premature list, as there are more recipes Nanna and Lady Brighid posted
that are not yet incorporated, there are still more recipes in Rumpolt
not yet in this list, and are still more cookbooks to look at... We had
some discussion about the "value" of such recipes, a while ago. Anyway,
to give you an idea:
14th century/ 15th century
Frati p. 59 = Faccioli I, 97-98 (Torta ungareca per XII persone)
CXIII Torta ungaresca per xii persone.
Toy uno capone ben grasso e toy uno lombolo de porco grande e do cepole
grosse e meza libra de specie dolze
e fine e toy tre libre d'onto fresco che non sia salato e toy tanta
farina che sia tre pani, la megliore, che tu poy
avere; e toy lo capone e 'l lombolo del porco e fane morselletti e de le
do cepole fane morselletti e meti queste
cosse a sofriger [soflriger_Ed.] in lo songiazo fresco in quantit‡; e de
le dite dolze e zafarano assay e un poco
de sale; e quando Ë ben sofrito mitige un bichiero d'aqua ch'el se cocha
senza compimento, e toli la farina e
destruta con aqua fresca insalata con un pocho de salina e menala molto
forte, e quando Ë ben menato, toy uno
testo de ramo ben stagnato e onzilo ben de questo lardo fresco che tu
ay. Toy la pasta e menala e sotiliata con
una mescola e fala sotille, e siate due a traer sotille a foglio con
lardo e fane infina a XVIII fogli, et postea toy
questo batuto de capon e de altre cosse fane uno solo suso questa met‡,
e poni tante altre foglie sopra questo
solo ben inaffiato ziaschuno per si di lardo e fa una crosta de sopra
per vardia. Questa torta vole poco foco sotto
e ben foco di sopra, e poy fare per piu, o per men, toiando le cosse a
questa mesura." (I hope the special
characters go through.)
Jean de Bockenheim, Registrum coquinae,
c. 1430-50, ed. Laurioux 1988
Nr. 36 Alia basteda pro magnatis (the 'magnates' were the aristocrats in
Poland and Hungary)
Nr. 37 Alia torta pro Ungaris et Bohemis
16th century
- -- Philipina Welser (1545) 141.17 (ain hecht ein machen auf vngeresch)
- -- Sabina Welser (1553) S.24.12 & Nr. 191 (hecht jn ainer vngerischen
brie)
- -- Heidelberg: Codex palatinus germanicus 293, fol. 26r (Wiswe 108 &
note).
- -- Heidelberg: Codex palatinus germanicus 555, fol. 111r (Wiswe 108 &
note).
- -- Kleines Klosterkochbuch (ed. Otto, Leipzig 1856; not a very reliable
source; the text is somewhat
modernized, the manuscript was not found any more in later times):
p. 11 (Ein Hecht auf hungarisch zu sieden),
p. 31 (Wilde oder zahme G‰nse, Enten und Kapphanen auf hungarisch
anzurichten),
p. 34 (Junge H¸hner auf hungrisch),
p. 65 (Eine Gallart von jungen Ferkeln auf hungarisch zu bereiten),
p. 67 (Ein Rinderbraten auf Hungarisch),
p. 113 (Sauerkraut auf hungarisch anzurichten).
- -- Anna Wecker (1598), p. 224f. (Ein Koppen vnd andere H¸nerqualen oder
Schlegel/ K‰lbern oder Schepsen
auff Vngrisch zu bereiten).
- -- Rumpolt, Ein new Kochbuch, 1581
hungarian recipes or characteristics mentioned on fol. 18r, 33v, 38r,
40r, 42r, 49v, 53r, 81r, 82v, 85v, 97v,
110r, 106r etc. (according to Wiswe 108; you might also search for
"vnger" in our online-passages from
Rumpolt, to see some of the mentioned recipes)
- -- Meflisbugo, Libro novo, 1557
fol. 17r (Trutte in vino alla Ongaresca; only mentioned; no recipe)
fol. 107r (A fare potaccio di pesce, all' Ongaresca)
17th century
- -- Grazer Kochbuch 1686, 97.1 (Ungarisch ¸berschlagenes Pastetel)
- -- Wolfenb¸ttel: Codex Guelferbytanus 51 Aug. 4∞, fol. 218v; 223r (Wiswe
108 & note)
- -- Coler (1665) p. 50 & 57 (Wiswe 108 & notes)
18th century
- -- Riedlinger Kochbuch 1710, 33.9 // 52.14 // 54.11 // 56.11 // 231.13
(ein guet vngerische Suppen vber einen
H‰chten/ einen Karpffen/ ein Hienel)
- -- Riedlinger Kochbuch 1710, 73.9 (ungerischer Kopaun)
********************
<< I don't think that there are any extant Prussian cookbooks from our
period.>>
There is one called by Gollub, its editor, "Aus der K¸che der deutschen
Ordensritter", published in Prussia 31 (1935) 118-129. Might be worth a
look. An electronic version of the original German text is on my
website. Not easy to read, however.
Best,
Thomas
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 18:51:00 -0700
From: "Wanda Pease" <wandapease at bigfoot.com>
Subject: SC - Book on Hungarian/Nomadic Cooking
While browsing the same site that has the Melitta Weiss Adamson translation
of "Ein Buck von Guter Spise" I came on another that might be of interest to
the list. It is:
Sonderband VII (Special Binding?)
JÛzsef Laszlovszky (ed.), Tender Meat under the Saddle. Customs of Eating,
Drinking and Hospitality among Conquering Hungarians and Nomadic Peoples
Istv·n Fodor, The Culture of Conquering Hungarians
JÛzsef Laszlovszky, Research Possibilities into the History and Material
Culture of Eating, Drinking and Hospitality during the Period of Hungarian
Conquest
G·bor VÈkony, Feasting and Hospitality among Eastern Nomadic Peoples
PÈter Tomka, Customs of Eating and Hospitality among Nomadic Peoples of the
Migration Period
MiklÛs Tak·cs, How Did Conquering Hungarians Prepare and Serve their Food?
Ferenc Gyulai, Archaeobotanical Sources in Investigating the Diet of
Conquering Hungarians
L·szlÛ Bartosiewicz, Mobile Pastoralism and Meat Consumption: an
Archaeozoological Perspective
ISBN 3-90 1094 10 5
Krems 1998
Sonderband VIII
http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/maq/Verzeichnis.html
imareal at oeaw.ac.at
I have ordered the Buch von der Guter Spise. A Ms. Birgit Karl has been
very helpful in answering my questions and setting up the "buy"
(books-drugs, both are addictive!).
Regina Romsey
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 22:25:00 -0400
From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Need Advice on cookbooks
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Hungary Nothing published
Rumpolt and other German texts label certain recipes as Hungarian. Rumpolt was Hungarian himself.. I haven't found many details though, most sauces are just given by name.
Ranvaig
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 20:52:56 -0700
From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Another potentially Hungarian recipe
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From time to time, listees ask about Hungarian recipes. Besides those
in Marx Rumpolt, here's another, this time from Italy.
Cristoforo Messisbugo, aka Cristoforo da Messisburgo, authored
several cookbooks in the 16th century. One was Banchetti, or
'Banquets', dated 1549. I would assume from his family name that
either he or his family was not originally Italian.
The Victoria and Albert museum in London has some recipes on their website.
http://www.vam.ac.uk/vastatic/microsites/1487_renaissance/recipesmessisbugo.html
Among them is:
Veal Soup in a Hungarian Uproar
Take a piece of veal and cut it into small pieces, then fry in fat
drippings. Add finely chopped onions and fry them with the veal. Once
fried, place in a cooking pot with meat broth and add 300 grams of
honey, 15 grams of pepper, 15 grams of cinnamon, an eighth of an
ounce of saffron and 150 grams of raisins. Cook slowly; then serve.
The original Italian is not given, and i wonder about that "Hungarian
uproar"...
--
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 22:34:54 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Another potentially Hungarian recipe --
Messisbugo
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
<<< Cristoforo Messisbugo, aka Cristoforo da Messisburgo, authored
several cookbooks in the 16th century. One was Banchetti, ... >>>
Georges Vicaire, in his "Bibliographie gastronomique" (online at
http://gallica.bnf.fr), mentions only the "Banchetti" and says, that this book
was published from 1552 onwards under a different title ("Libro novo ...").
I have not seen the 1549 edition, I have only a xerocopy of a Arnoldo Forni Editore
reprint of the 1557 edition of "Libro novo ...".
Which would be the other cookbooks by Messisbugo that you mentioned?
I think I have found the recipe in question in the "Libro novo ..." 1557.
<<< The Victoria and Albert museum in London has some recipes on their website.
http://www.vam.ac.uk/vastatic/microsites/1487_renaissance/recipesmessisbugo.html
Among them is: Veal Soup in a Hungarian Uproar
Take a piece of veal and cut it into small pieces, then fry in fat
drippings. Add finely chopped onions and fry them with the veal. Once
fried, place in a cooking pot with meat broth and add 300 grams of
honey, 15 grams of pepper, 15 grams of cinnamon, an eighth of an
ounce of saffron and 150 grams of raisins. Cook slowly; then serve.
The original Italian is not given, and i wonder about that
"Hungarian uproar"... >>>
In Messisbugo, Libro novo ... 1557 (Arnaldo Forni reprint), this might be the recipe in question (page 91):
Pottaccio, di Vitello in Fracasso, Omgaresco.
PIglia un petto di Vitello, e fallo in pezzoli, e dopoi (dopo??)
fallo soffrigere in grasso colato poi habbi Cipolle ben
peste, e gettale dentro a soffrigere, dopoi come, e soffrito
caualo della Patella, e ponilo in una Pignata con brodo di Carne,
e aggiungeli, libra una di mele, e oncia meza di peuere,
e Cannella, e uno ottauo di Zaffrano, e libra meza d'Vua
passa, e fallo finire di cuocere adagio, e lo imbandirai.
There are several other "hungarian" recipes, but they do not fit the version of the Victoria and Albert museum.
By the way. Messisbugo seems to be a great culinary source in many respects (I got the xerocopy many years ago, but today is the first day, I was actually reading parts of the text, strange, isn't it?).
-- He gives listings of several real banquets, he managed from 1529 to 1537.
-- He gives listings of officers and persons in charge with huge banquets.
-- He lists all the dining stuff: forks, table cloth, artisanal salt vessels in the form of ships and so forth.
-- He says, how the tables at certain banquets were prepared ("Apparata la tavola", p. 28).
-- He mentions hungarian preparations both in the menu listings (e.g. "Di Trutti in Vino alla Ongaresca", p. 12) and in the recipe section ("A fare dieci piatti di minestra alla Ongaresca", p. 81).
-- And, very interesting, he mentions the TABLE MUSIC in some detail that was performed between or accompanying the different dishes. ("E ? questa Viuanda son? questa Musica, ci?e due
Dolzaine, una storta, un Cornetto grosso, & un Trombone, ...", page 18 verso).
Thank you very much, Urtatim, for pointing to Messisbugo!
E.
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:05:42 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Another potentially Hungarian recipe / Hungarian
uproar
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
<<< The Victoria and Albert museum in London has some recipes on their website.
http://www.vam.ac.uk/vastatic/microsites/1487_renaissance/recipesmessisbugo.html
Among them is: Veal Soup in a Hungarian Uproar
The original Italian is not given, and i wonder about that "Hungarian uproar"... >>>
Just in case I have found the right recipe,* it seems to me, that someone might have misunderstood the phrase "in Fracasso".
In the context of this recipe, a better interpretation would be something like 'cut into pieces'.
I am not sure ...
E.
* Pottaccio, di Vitello in Fracasso, Omgaresco.
PIglia un petto di Vitello, e fallo in pezzoli, e dopoi (dopo??)
fallo soffrigere in grasso colato poi habbi Cipolle ben
peste, e gettale dentro a soffrigere, dopoi come, e soffrito
caualo della Patella, e ponilo in una Pignata con brodo di Carne,
e aggiungeli, libra una di mele, e oncia meza di peuere,
e Cannella, e uno ottauo di Zaffrano, e libra meza d'Vua
passa, e fallo finire di cuocere adagio, e lo imbandirai.
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:34:26 -0400
From: "Mairi Ceilidh" <jjterlouw at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another potentially Hungarian recipe /
Hungarianuproar
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
On Jun 11, 2008, at 7:05 PM, emilio szabo wrote:
<<< Just in case I have found the right recipe,* it seems to me, that
someone might have misunderstood the phrase "in Fracasso". >>>
Imagine if that were "in Fricasso"? It may not be, but we've got what
appears to me, after a quick glance, and in my broken culinary
Italian, to be little bits of veal fried in a pan with ft and onions,
then broth, spices, and [honey? Or is that apples?] added to make a
sauce, in which the dish is finished in a clay pot on the embers...
I, G. Tacitus Adamantius Magister, peer of the Eastern Realm, Master
of the Laurel, Companion of the Manche, Companion of the Silver
Crescent, Companion of the Burdened Tyger, Companion of the Seahorse,
Companion of the Seastar...
...humbly request a translation from any kind soul willing and able to
provide one, because my Italian is dubious, at best ;-).
Adamantius
================
Good Master Adamantius,
My Italian is less than dubious, but I have access to a translation of this
work done by Master Basilius Phocus of the Midrealm. Please understand that
all credit for this translation goes to my dear friend and mentor, Master
Basilius.
POTTAGE OF VEAL BROKEN INTO PIECES IN THE HUNGARIAN STYLE
Take a breast of veal and make into small pieces, and then make it
to fry in sieved fat. Then take onions well pounded and cast them inside to
fry. Then when it is fried remove from the pan and put in a terra cotta pot
with broth of meat, and add a pound of honey, and a half-ounce of pepper,
and cinnamon, and a eighth (ounce) of saffron, and a half- pound of raisins.
And make it to finish with cooking slowly and you shall ready it for the
banquet.
Mairi Ceilidh, who desperately needs to do another Italian feast
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 18:50:29 -0700
From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another potentially Hungarian recipe
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
So we now have:
1.) The V&A English, which isn't terrible, except for the title,
which i posted on Sunday, 8 June:
http://www.vam.ac.uk/vastatic/microsites/1487_renaissance/recipesmessisbugo.html
Veal Soup in a Hungarian Uproar
Take a piece of veal and cut it into small pieces, then fry in fat
drippings. Add finely chopped onions and fry them with the veal. Once
fried, place in a cooking pot with meat broth and add 300 grams of
honey, 15 grams of pepper, 15 grams of cinnamon, an eighth of an
ounce of saffron and 150 grams of raisins. Cook slowly; then serve.
2.) Thanks to Emilio Szabo (isn't that a Hungarian family name?)
today we received the original Italian of Messisbugo:
Pottaccio, di Vitello in Fracasso, Omgaresco.
Piglia un petto di Vitello, e fallo in pezzoli, e dopoi (dopo??)
fallo soffrigere in grasso colato poi habbi Cipolle ben
peste, e gettale dentro a soffrigere, dopoi come, e soffrito
caualo della Patella, e ponilo in una Pignata con brodo di Carne,
e aggiungeli, libra una di mele, e oncia meza di peuere,
e Cannella, e uno ottauo di Zaffrano, e libra meza d'Vua
passa, e fallo finire di cuocere adagio, e lo imbandirai.
3.) And thanks to Mairi Ceilidh, today we also got the translation of
Master Basilius Phocus of the Midrealm:
Pottage of Veal Broken into Pieces in the Hungarian Style
Take a breast of veal and make into small pieces, and then make it
to fry in sieved fat. Then take onions well pounded and cast them inside
to fry. Then when it is fried remove from the pan and put in a terra cotta
pot with broth of meat, and add a pound of honey, and a half-ounce of
pepper, and cinnamon, and a eighth (ounce) of saffron, and a half- pound
of raisins. And make it to finish with cooking slowly and you shall ready
it for the banquet.
BTW, Mairi, has Master Basilius translated the whole book?
Time for Hungarian Veal Fricassee Soup!
BTW, do we know how young 16th C. Italian veal was? When i was in
Spain in 2000, the "veal" was actually weaned young cow... the meat
was rather dark, although not as dark as mature bovine. Definitely
not the rather white, extremely tender meat of the animal-rights
horror, but gustatory delight, of a purely milk-fed calf which my
family ate with some frequency in the 50s and 60s.
--
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 20:02:06 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] 16th century Hungarian cookbook ?
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
There is an Hungarian website with an interesting statement.
<< Our earliest printed cookbooks, dating back to the 16th century,
reintroduce us to a rich culinary tradition all but lost for today's
cooks, and also give us a glimpse of important and interesting aspects
of our past, not contained in history books. >>
http://hungaria.org/hal/culinaria/
Does anybody know, what they refer to?
E.
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2013 10:50:10 -0700
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Hungarian sources
I recently joined the medieval and renaissance group on facebook. Two
participants are Hungarian, and it turns out that there are period
Hungarian cookbooks. One of them gave me the following links:
These are in the internet:
Radv?nszky, B?la: R?gi magyar szak?csk?nyvek.
http://mek.oszk.hu/08800/08864/08864.pdf
Miszt?tfalusi Kis Mikl?s: Szak?tsmesters?gnek k?nyvecsk?je.
http://mek.oszk.hu/08300/08343/08343.htm
He commented that they are in 16th c. Hungarian. So now we just have to
find someone who can translate from 16th c. Hungarian to English. Any
volunteers?
-- David Friedman www.daviddfriedman.com
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2013 16:31:50 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Hungarian sources
Radv?nszky B?la dates are given---(1849-1906)
http://digitalia.tudaskozpont-pecs.hu/?p=2184
Google translates the Hungarian description as:
Description:
Intimate knowledge of our nation's history is an important part of the traditional Hungarian cuisine status. Deservedly may interest us is how our ancestors ate, what they ate, how the food was cooked, how it was used relatively mature in the past centuries, the art of cookery, what a thing of the past relied on during the first half of this century, a famous Hungarian cuisine.
All these information primarily Hungarian old cookbooks can be obtained. They demonstrate that the cook-book art has stood fairly high degree of XVI-th century.
Some chef-masters had gained a reputation. Even much later, like prestige, relied upon, the "f?mesterre. These artists were among the others Anthony Masters, Gabor Perenyi) chef who menyegz?j?n lord "is baked in an ox that in antiquity a fat sheep, the sheep of a small calf, and the calf was at once a fat capon.
Looks like more of a history, perhaps???
Notaker lists two editions of a very late 17th century printed cookery book in Hungarian.
Both were printed by Kis. The earliest dates from 1695. The second printing dates from 1698. It looks like it can be purchased also in a facsimile edition.
Little Nicholas Miszt?tfalusi Kis was a printer and "letter cutter" or typeographer. dates 1650-1702
: Szak?tsmesters?gnek k?nyvetsk?je / Reprint edition /
http://muzeumantikvarium.hu/search/Szak%C3%A1tsmesters%C3%A9gnek
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cook_book_titile_page_1698.jpg
Actually the Szak?tsmesters?gnek k?nyvecsk?je can be searched and pops up in English if you hit google translate.
http://tinyurl.com/kdehwfy good for looking at anyway
Master Chef Bureau booklet?...
Kolozsv?ratt,
M. T?tfalusi K. By Nicholas 1698th
Here's a sample---
Plum Beles
Break the plums, but the core of kih?nyv?n Luncheon at pretty tiny, it pepper, ginger, carnation, Make dough like lask?nak, diverted rounded than your palm, plums put addition, other pasta rebuke in and fond of peace around who does not degrade or cifr?zd you kadocba and dip, or a mixture of flour and egg batter, a few do such a thing, butter, pull it up and t substations.
Today rewriting language:
Dr. Andras Varga
Johnnae
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 07:35:20 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Hungarian sources
With regard to the two Hungarian sources on July 9th posted by His Grace on 9 July, I have found out a bit more about Radv?nszky B?la and have the title of another book that might be of interest.
I came across this title in 2011 when doing some research on sources for a Hungarian event here in the Midrealm. I set it aside to be worked on later, if and when the need or interest arose.
B?la Radv?nszky.
Magyar csal?d?let ?s h?ztart?s a XVI. ?s XVII. sz?zadban
(The Hungarian Family and Household during the 16th and 17th Centuries). (Budapest, 1897). Seems to be in three volumes and may have originally been based on a series of articles published in a journal. Numerous 19th century editions.
This book is available on Google Books (and actually through Amazon as well).
-----
This book was reprinted in 1986. Subject heading-- Hungary- History- 1526-1683
There are copies of the reprint available, inc the University of Michigan.
(No I have not loaned it in yet.)
Johnnae
<the end>
