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glues-msg - 8/4/99

 

Medieval pastes and glues. Directions and recipes.

 

NOTE: See also the files: leather-msg, horn-msg, plaster-msg, pottery-msg, fasteners-msg, sewing-msg, woodworking-msg.

 

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NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given by the individual authors.

 

Please  respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these messages. The  copyright status  of these messages  is  unclear at this time. If  information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org

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From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Hide Glues (was Woodworker mag article)

Date: 2 Sep 1995 15:03:56 -0500

Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway

 

<"krekuta at tor.hookup.net" <Kel Rekuta at tor.hookup.net>>

>Could you tell me with specific issue of "Woodworker" or is it

>Woodworking, Fine Woodwork etc?  There a lot of these mags available

>in my local woodwork shop for us tool junkies.

 

Thank you Kel for pointing out my Error (so much for trying to rebuild

a comment from memory).  Since I screwed up the citation, I hope you won't

mind if I forward your note back to the newsgroup, as well as replying to

you.

 

Flexner, Bob.  "Animal Hide Glue."  Wookwork, a Magazine for all Woodworkers.

      No. 35 (Oct 1995), pp. 46-52.

 

The Article first describes the materials; Dispelling Myths, Advantages of

Hide Glue, Reversability (of Hide Glue), Regluing, Removing the Old Glue,

Separating Joints, Initial Tack, Hammering Veneering, Dealing with Rapid

Tacking, and Liquid Hide Glue.  There are two smaller one page insets, one

on  "What is Hide Glue?, the other on "Preparing Hide Glue" (also covering

Caring for the Glue, and Glue Aroma).  A short list of suppliers for glue

pots and glue.

 

I realise that some people may be wondering why *anyone would be interested

in using a glue that while it is allegedly stronger than the wood it's attached

to, it's water soluable and has a reputation for smelling bad when you heat it.

Essentially, I've been using it because a) it's flexible enough for use on

bows, and b) it's (as far as I know) Period.

 

I recently tried using it for laminating a crossbow bow with wood, rawhide

and horn, then bound it in linen thread, just to protect the inner core.

It worked beautifully for a few minutes until the Bois D'arc collapsed under

the pressure (It was clearly too small a bit of wood). Rather than throwing

it out, I'm going to try soaking it in water for a while and seeing if the

horn and linen thread can be saved (since I'm cheap :) ). Since the glue

is water soluable, it should work.

 

Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn

MKA Marc Carlson

IMC at VAX2.UTULSA.EDU

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: tip at mercury.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)

Subject: Re: Adhesives

Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 18:58:53 GMT

 

Carl West <eisen at world.std.com> wrote:

> So, better period adhesives anyone?

 

Unto My Lord Eysenkpof, does Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus send his humble

greetings,

 

Good My Lord,

 

Hast thou assayed fish glue, made from the skins of fresh water fishes, or

rabbit glue, made from the hides of rabbits?   Certes of my good companions

have oft lauded these glues unto me.  But, lest thee say that I have lauded

them myself, I must say unto thee that I have not myself set these glues to

use, so I cannot attest to their powers of affixation.

 

Another glue might be litharage glue, made up of fine litherage and goodly

olive oils.  Yet, many would fain not hold forth with such a glue, for that

the litherage hiding within its corpus the seeds of lead may not be to thy

liking.

 

Hast thou given thought unto Gum Arabic?  This, when dissolved in water set

nigh unto boil, and allowed to cool, doth afford a glue which is tenacious

and yet pliable.  Yet, I fear it may be too weak for thy purposings.

 

In final thought, My Lord, hast thou thought that mayhaps a goodly war

arrow is meant to be used but once, and then the head to rot in the corpus

malefactorum?   Thus it may be that none hath solved thy problem, and that

this problem may not be solved for many centuries to come.

 

I that thy shafts shall find the golden ring in all thy contests,

and remain,

 

Thy Humble Servant,

Ld. Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus

Called Doctor by some who are generous to a humble scholiard

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: ederd at bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Dani Eder)

Subject: Re: Period glue recipe?

Organization: The Boeing Company

Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 15:01:29 GMT

 

Garick Chamberlin <Garick at vonkopke.demon.co.uk> writes:

 

>Therefore, I am in search of a period (not just period-like) glue recipe. The

>ideal glue for the purpose would be clear and would not be affected adversely

>by getting wet. Idealy, I would like to coat the whole hilt with a protective

>layer to prevent any further damage.  Anyone have any pointers?

 

I don't know of any period glues that fit your requirement of being

waterproof.  Hide glue existed in period.  My knowledge of it comes

from it's use in preparing the white background under paintings.  It's

made from animals like the name implies, and is prepared by mixing

the solid glue with water and heating.  It sets when cooled, and can

be un-set by re-heating, but is not waterproof.

 

Unless you want to make the glue yourself, you can order it from some

industrial supply places (where I got mine: McMaster-Carr Supply Co,

Atlanta, Georgia, USA), and some better woodworking supply places

(some furniture assembly is still done with it).

 

The other material you might want to consider is a paint varnish,

such as cold-pressed linseed oil, which polymerizes in air to a

clear, hard finish- which is why it is used in paintings, although

I don't know it's water-resisting properties.

 

(title from memory, but close to that) has a lot of discussion

on what was used in period, and why some materials last and

others don't.

 

Daniel of Raven's Nest

 

 

From: bwhaley at access2.digex.net (Brocmael)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period glue recipe?

Date: 18 Jan 1996 23:39:39 GMT

Organization: Digex, Inc.

 

Dani Eder (ederd at bcstec.ca.boeing.com) wrote:

> Garick Chamberlin <Garick at vonkopke.demon.co.uk> writes:

 

:> Therefore, I am in search of a period (not just period-like) glue

:> recipe. The ideal glue for the purpose would be clear and would not

:> be affected adversely by getting wet. Idealy, I would like to coat

:> the whole hilt with a protective layer to prevent any further

:> damage.  Anyone have any pointers?

 

: waterproof.  Hide glue existed in period.  It sets when cooled,

: and can be un-set by re-heating, but is not waterproof.

 

I have heard that upon reheating and recooling it loses strength, but

that is a vague memory.

 

Luthier's Mercantile (Healdsburg, CA (800) 477-4437) has hide glue, as

should any woodworking shop worth its sawdust.  For this, I would

recommend against the Franklin liquid hide glue as it's definitely

not period (unless you count the last few years).

 

: The other material you might want to consider is a paint varnish,

: such as cold-pressed linseed oil, which polymerizes in air to a

: clear, hard finish- which is why it is used in paintings, although

: I don't know it's water-resisting properties.

 

Raw linseed oil when polymerised is completely waterproof. It was used

on linen canvas to make oil cloth.  Check an archive for the discussion

on that from several months ago.  Though I have no proof, I'm sure linseed

oil was used as a rust preventative.

 

Broc

 

 

From: jartificer at aol.com (Jartificer)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period glue recipe?

Date: 19 Jan 1996 06:34:16 -0500

Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

 

Broc is quite right, there are no good period waterproof glues.  Linseed

oil varnish comes close, as it does actually polymerize. Hide glue

applied hot is about the best you can do.  Failures of period adhesives is

a common cause of deterioration of old artifacts, modes in clude

dissolving, rotting, being eaten, etc.

 

 

From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period glue recipe?

Date: 23 Jan 1996 16:41:42 GMT

Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.

 

Cennini gives 3 recipes for variations on hide glue.  I think they are of

different strengths and therefore intended for different purposes.  The simplest

involves parchment shavings (obtainable from a parchment maker), and this

probably would produce something closer to a size rather than a glue (ie.

low strength).  Good for gessoe, sizing paper, etc., but not so good for glueing

things.  The next strongest involves what Thompson has translated as 'necks'.

This is probably trimmings from parchment sheets, from the thicker areas (like

the neck) which might not be used by the scribe/artist. Alternatively, it may

refer to any bits trimmed away by the parchment maker while mounting the skin

on the frame for stretching.  I generate a fair bit of this stuff in addition

to the previously mentioned shavings.  The third type of glue mentioned by

Cennini involves hoofs and muzzles, which would be the bits trimmed off by

the tanner/parchmenter before the processing of the hide begins.  Although

I often get my skins with the skin from the head (face?) attached, the hoofs

are typically trimmed away at the slaughterhouse.  I seem to recall a glue

recipe from one translation of Theophilus that featured parchment trimmings

(or some other form of hide) with additions of crushed 'stag horn'.  I remember

the recipe because it was quite specific about how the horn should be broken

with a hammer upon a blacksmith's anvil.  This would actually be antler, which

should be similar to adding bone to the hide glue.

 

In any case, prolonged boiling of this stuff is likely to be an unpleasant

task, even if haunting slaughterhouses looking for 'muzzles and hoofs' is not

enough to deter you.

 

One mail-order source for a variety of hide and bone glues, and indeed all

sorts of arcane pigments, dyes, glues, resins, varnishes, oils, etc. is

Kremer Pigments in New York.   Their number is 1-800-995-5501.

 

I'm a satisfied customer.

 

I'm also not a conservator, so I cannot comment on how glueing and varnishing

the hilt of this knife may affect its value as an 'artifact'.  You may want

to consult with someone qualified in the field before you make any

non-reversible changes to it, if you are at all concerned about that issue.

 

Cheers, Rick/Balderik    (I'll grind yer bones to make my glue)

 

 

From: "David R. Watson" <crossbow at moontower.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period glue recipe?

Date: 26 Jan 1996 14:59:40 GMT

Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site

 

  Try fish glue, also known as eisenglass.  It is still available from a

few suppliers.  It's much more noxious than hide glue. Both of these

are good, strong, water resistant glues and very period. Some glueing

was done with bitumin, a coal tar or petro-tar derivative. I suspect

casein glue (like Elmers) was used as well, as you can get the same

effect by putting a glass of milk, (with a bit of milk on the bottom, of

course) down on a nice coffee table overnight.  In the morning, you will

leave a nice ring in the finish, when you force the glass off the table.  

That's the wonder of casein.  Unfortunately for you project fiends,

casein is not very waterproof.

  You can buy a ready to use "hide glue" in a bottle.  It is basically

the same as the stuff you have to boil up, but is easier to use, and not

nearly so water resistant.  Many wood working sources sell granulated

hide glue that must be cooked up in a pot.  It is not as noxious as

trying to make your own hide glue from the dead cow Grandpa Willerson

found on his north 40 last week.  

 

Iolo.

 

 

From: afn03234 at freenet3.freenet.ufl.edu (Ronald L. Charlotte)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period glue recipe?

Date: 24 Jan 1996 12:57:18 GMT

 

In <822309128snz at vonkopke.demon.co.uk>, Garick Chamberlin

<Garick at vonkopke.demon.co.uk> wrote:

 

<snip>

 

> > The other material you might want to consider is a paint varnish,

> > such as cold-pressed linseed oil, which polymerizes in air to a

> > clear, hard finish- which is why it is used in paintings, although

> > I don't know it's water-resisting properties.

 

> So are you saying that I could glue it with hide glue and then coat the whole

> hilt with linseed oil to waterproof it?  Does anyone have any period hide

> glue recipees? Linseed oil I think I can figure out.

 

Try Theophilus' _On Divers Arts_ (ISBN 0 486 23784 2).  It contains the

recipes several glues including a Hide/horn glue.

--

     al Thaalibi ---- An Crosaire, Trimaris

     Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL

     afn03234 at afn.org

 

 

From: aelfric at eworld.com (Aelfric)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period glue recipe?

Date: 9 Feb 1996 17:51:57 -0800

Organization: eWorld

 

A period glue? Well, one might give serious consideration to a simple and

very fine version of a relative to hide glue that was made from boiled

hooves, and is still used by bowyers today...gelatine glue. In a study

done by Tim Baker, one of the authors of the popular The Traditional

Bowyer's Bible, this glue performed better than all of its period and

modern counterparts save two-ton epoxy. The best part is that, unless you

want to, you do not have to boil your own hooves; Knox

gelatine--unflavored of course--was found to be about the best source for

the gelatine glue mix, as it is already a very fine grade of purified

gelatine. Part of their gelatine comes from hides and some from bone, so

it is best thought of as a mixture of those two glues. I don't have the

formula nearby right now, but it is about the same perportion of water to

dry stuff as hide glues, though you might want to experiment before

settling.

 

Good luck

Marc/Aelfric

 

 

From: ameehan at direct.ca (Aidan J Meehan)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period glue recipe?

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 04:20:05 GMT

Organization: Internet Direct

 

Depends what you want the glue for. If you do not need to adhere an

anvil to the ceiling with it, a fine glue is Rabbit-skin glue,

available fom fine art supply shops.. comes in a packet of granules,

just add water,  boil.

 

Madoc

 

 

From: jmradovs at rodan.syr.edu (Jennie M. Radovsky)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period glue recipe?

Date: 25 Feb 1996 00:19:15 GMT

Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY

 

In article <4fp37v$kcc at aphex.direct.ca> ameehan at direct.ca (Aidan J Meehan) writes:

>aelfric at eworld.com (Aelfric) wrote:

 

>Depends what you want the glue for. If you do not need to adhere an

>anvil to the ceiling with it, a fine glue is Rabbit-skin glue,

>available fom fine art supply shops.. comes in a packet of granules,

>just add water,  boil.

                  ^^^^ you don't actually want to boil rabbitskin glue,

you want to bring it to a state just preboil: take it off the heat as it

starts to simmer- if you boil it rumour has it that it will loose most of

it's potency as glue.

 

-Cerdd (who incidently has used rabbitskin glue for size on canvas)

 

 

From: cyberelf at netaxs.com (Daeymion)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period glue recipe?

Date: 14 Mar 1996 23:22:07 GMT

Organization: Philadelphia's Complete Internet Provider

 

BRgarwood (brgarwood at aol.com) wrote:

: In article <313CB18B.6CC0 at sauron.hacks.arizona.edu>, Baron Jonathan

: <baron at sauron.hacks.arizona.edu> writes:

:

: >I am told by a local artisan that 'Elmer's glue' is actually made from

: >period ingredients...never having researched 'Elmer's', I have no idea,

: >but that's what I was told :)

:

: I beleive Elmers is a casein-based product.  Given that casein is one of

: the principal components of milk, and cows are period, I would say the

: ingredients are period.  I don't know if milk was used for glue in period

: however.

:

: Lord Berwyn AEthelbryght of Ackley,

: Rudivale shire, Northshield, Midrealm

: BRgarwood at aol.com

 

  I have found that the white of an egg, well coated on the surface and

allowed to dry throughly makes a tremendously Good glue, and while i'm

not sure it's period, the substance is.

 

 

From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Tempera Panel Painting/Gesso

Date: 15 Apr 1996 20:56:58 GMT

Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.

 

In article <31726083.DC9 at magic1.org>, Ian Johnson <ijohnson at magic1.org> writes:

|>

|> The first batch I mixed was thick, but didn't go on very smooth.  I

|> think I just didn't grind it in enough.  The stuff that cracked was

|> too thin.  Will extra plaster gesso keep in a closed jar, or will it

|> set up anyway?

|>

|> Is knox gelatin animal based?  Boiling parchment would be cool, but

|> the scribes would probably hate me for that.

 

There are a number of different hide glues available that are based on

animal gelatine.  Kremer Pigments (1-800-995-5501) sells a number of different

types.  If you dilute the glue with more than the standard amount of water,

you should get a useable size.

 

As to boiling parchment, a number of bookbinding supply houses sell parchment

clippings/trimmings for making size/glue.

 

Or you can do what Cennini suggests, and go to a parchment maker (ie. me) and

get some odd bits and shavings, and boil these down to make your size/glue.

 

I save both the crinkly bits from the edges of the skins as well as the

shavings for people who want to boil them down to make size.  While the

crinkly bits work fine, straining out the shavings after boiling could be

problematic (I suspect they would resolve into mush).  The Canadian Conservation

Institute uses both for making size, but I don't know how they deal with the

shavings.

 

um...how many pounds were you after?

 

Cheers, Rick/Balderik

 

 

Subject: ANST - A&S Topic: Glue

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 98 13:33:19 MST

From: "Alan J. Boertjens" <a-boertjens1 at ti.com>

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

 

>> Vicki Marsh wrote:

>> Paraffin wax was also used, but not as durable. The best ideas

>> would probably come from some of the Norse digs and from the armor

>> museums.  There are also references to glues that were used in the

>> making of musical instruments.  Check out the library or on the web

>> for information.

 

>Stefan li Rous wrote:

> Paraffin is a petroleum-based wax and wasn't invented until the 18th

> or 19th century. Do you perhaps mean bee's wax? I don't believe I've

> heard of any glues based on wax. Do you have more details? Like what

> was added to the wax?

 

There is a natural glue that bees make and use inside their hives.

This glue (I can't remember the name of it though) can be used as

a "special" additive to laquers used in musical instruments.

I took a beekeeping class at UNT this last term and the instructor

uses it in this fashion in his violin repair shop.

However, harvesting this type of natural glue may be a painful

exercise, in more ways than one.  If anyone wants more information

about this bee glue, just ask and I'll consult the beekeeping textbook

from the class.

 

~Johan Bjornsson

 

 

Subject: ANST - Period Paste and Glue

Date: Mon, 08 Jun 98 21:17:39 MST

From: Jax <jax at onr.com>

To: "Ansteorra" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

 

I've seen a lot of posts on period glues, but none on plain ole' paste.

 

The basic difference between paste and glue is that paste dries hard,

while glue stays more flexible. Also, glue provides better

water-resistance; dry paste that gets wet will often revert to wet paste.

This tendency can be alleviated with a finishing application of wax or

varnish.

 

Paste also works better w/ surfaces that are at least partially porous.

Paper and cardboards are the best applications. But paste also works well

w/ leathers, cloth, and soft woods. And you can try it on everything. Use

a sample first, of course, before trying it on important projects!

 

One last caveat: Materials that are pasted my tend to curl while drying.

(Paste dries completely.) When pasting papers and leathers, they should

be firmly pressed flat (or whatever) until they are completely dry.

 

Here is a recipe for a simple flour paste:

 

Flour paste

 

1 cup flour

1 cup cold water

4-5 cups boiling water.

 

Put the flour in a saucepan and gradually add the cold water, stirring

until all lumps are gone. Look for a whole milk sort of consistancy

(Thick paste is a very commen error. It can be thinned w/ water at any

time.) Slowly add the boiling water and cook 3-4 minutes, stirring

constantly. Let cool. You can also add a few drops of clove oil to

discourage mildew and to act as a preservative.

 

Hope that helps,

-Erik Wulfriksson-

 

 

Subject: Re: ANST - Period Paste and Glue

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 98 18:22:45 MST

From: Jax <jax at onr.com>

To: "Ansteorra" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

 

Nathan W. Jones said:

 

>> You can also add a few drops of clove oil to

>> discourage mildew and to act as a preservative.

>

>No, no, no!!  This is all wrong!

>

>Paste should taste like spearmint, or maybe wintergreen.

>

>Gio, lost in reverie....

>

>p.s.  Not that I was a paste-eater...no one saw me do it, it was never proven

>and I deny the malicious allegation.

 

I like spearmint too... unfortunately, so do mice. They aren't crazy

about cloves, tho...

 

BTW, the people who are thinking " Cooked flour paste won't hold

non-porous surfaces" are the same people who do their dishes every day.

But this southern bachelor is here to tell you that, if after enjoying

that midnight bowl of grits you were to leave the non-porous bowl and the

non-porous spoon sitting, oh I don't know.... say, at the foot of the bed

all night, then in the morning, you would have a wonderful example of the

Power of Paste.

 

Not that I've ever done that.

 

Seriously, the paste works on the same principle. Just don't soak that

horn and mahogany tiara box in Lemon Joy, and you're all set. (That was

not a pun, Mistress Aquilanne!!)

 

Regards,

-Erik Wulfriksson-

 

 

Subject: Re: ANST - Period Glue-fish glue with recipie

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 98 20:07:12 MST

From: nib <nib at flash.net>

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

 

Another type of mediveal glue is fish glue-and this stuff is STRONG.

Good for wood/horn combinations.  This is a cold glue, meaning that it

is used cold.  Not heated, like hide glues.  And by the way, why didn't

anyone mention that Hide Glue can be bought in a hardware store?  It's

called Rabbitskin Glue-comes in granules, reconsituted with water and

must be heated to be used.  Much easier than breaking down the bones,

horns, hooves and hides and creating the glue...that takes even longer

than fish glue!

Been there, done that, don't do it anymore.

 

To make Fish Glue:

 

Remove the good meat parts of the fish then take the bones and remains

of your fish or several fish and place in a pot, cover with enough water

to be about 3" above the remains. Bring to a rolling boil, then turn

down to a rolling simmer (just below medium heat on a stove).

Cook for approximately 2-3 or MORE hours on a rolling simmer-to dissolve

all the parts of the fish-and adding JUST enough extra water as needed

to prevent from burning & sticking-stir frequently! (about every 10-15

minutes.)

The glue will be very very thick and gooey when done.  It will seem

liquid, but put a sample between your fingers and thumb and press them

together open and shut constantly...at some point, that excerise will

cease and you'll run around screaming "how do i get my fingers and thumb

apart!!"

  Can be kept in a tightly closed container for about 10 days under a

cool enviorment (read refidgerator)....open downwind after 10 days.

Yeah, the longer it's kept around the stronger it gets...in glue

strength and smell.  Don't keep it longer than 3 months.

 

Oddly enough, when cooking, the creation of this glue stinks a bit for

about 10-15 minutes...then creates this WONDERFUL cooking smell that

makes folks who like fish, very very hungry.  Feed them the fillets you

took off those bones, and tell them to leave your glue alone.

 

Rayah Blackstar

 

 

Subject: Re: ANST - Period Glue-fish glue with recipie

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 12:47:05 MST

From: nib <nib at flash.net>

To: "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)" <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>

 

> I assume you make hide glues similarly to the description you gave

> for fish glue? Are you saving hide glues have to be applied hot?

> I wasn't aware of this.

>

>   Stefan li Rous

 

Yep.  Hideglues have to be applied hot. (know all those jokes about

horses being fit only for the glue factory? ta-dah, now you know why)

As for the making of hide glue, same principle as fish glue, HOWEVER,

you want to break down the bones, hide, hooves and horns into as much

small/powdered material as you can, and it takes a few weeks/if not

months to achieve that boildown consistancy over an outdoor heat.  This

is NOT one you do inside... this stuff REALLY (gag gag) stinks, and

medieval laws were passed about where glue/hide processing could be

done....air pollution laws no less :)

 

*instant* hide glue was manufactured by scribes in the middle ages by

throwing scraps of their vellum with water into a small pot and heated.

Vellum is the very thin hide of a sheep/cow/rabbit whatever, that has

been scraped, stretched to a thin paper consistancy used for writing.

This makes for a quick instant gradification hide glue, as the hide

material is very thin already.  Took me 20 minutes at one point to make

some with remains of some vellum scraps i had.  I had a little U shaped

alumimum metal stand, a candle for the heat, and a very shallow glass

bowl.  Threw the hide in, added water and let it heat while i stirred.

20 minutes i had great hide glue.

 

Generally, with hide glue, after the liquid is processed, you layer it

over a flat surface and break/crush/powder it up and store it for

reconsitution later.

 

Rayah Blackstar

 

 

Subject: Re: ANST - Period Paste and Glue

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 03:38:04 MST

From: Brendan McEwan <brendan1 at airmail.net>

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

 

Jax wrote:

> I've seen a lot of posts on period glues, but none on plain ole' paste.

>

> The basic difference between paste and glue is that paste dries hard,

> while glue stays more flexible. Also, glue provides better

> water-resistance; dry paste that gets wet will often revert to wet paste.

> This tendency can be alleviated with a finishing application of wax or

> varnish.

>

> -Erik Wulfriksson-

 

Not true.  Hide glue dries hard enough to chip chisels. Hide glue can

also be softened and removed with water.  That is why it is still used

in instruments today.  A good supplier for hide glue is in an ad in Fine

Woodworking.  It is mixed with approximately equal parts water and glue

flakes and heated to 190 degrees.  Too hot and it ruins the glue

ability, too cold and it thickens.  If the glue set too quickly, it can

be reheated using a damp cloth and an iron.  I've used this stuff

exclusively in the lutes I've built and it is tough stuff, fully

documentable.

 

Brendan McEwan

Steppes, Ansteorra

 

 

Subject: ANST - Glue...

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 18:27:06 MST

From: jhartel <jhartel at net-link.net>

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

 

Just a bit more on glue that we found while doing research this evening

on mosaics.

 

"Christains of the 11th century liked to travel with mosaic painted

icons.  Their icons were composed of tiny tesserae held with a mixture

of wax and resin.  The wax-resin mix was sperad directly onto the wood

panel.  This resin was also damp-proof."

 

THE ART OF MAKING MOSAICS, Jenkins, Louisa and Mills, Barbara.  pp 34-5

 

I believe this would be considered a tertiary source but the authors

have cited many secondary sources as well as pictures from many mosaics

found in Greece.

 

Moriel*** and Eldred

 

 

Subject: Re: ANST - Period Paste and Glue

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 98 16:43:22 MST

From: Jocelyn Hinkle <scribe_ari at yahoo.com>

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

 

---Jax  wrote:

> Here is a recipe for a simple flour paste:

(snip)

> Put the flour in a saucepan and gradually add the cold water, stirring

> until all lumps are gone. Look for a whole milk sort of consistancy

> (Thick paste is a very commen error. It can be thinned w/ water at any

> time.) Slowly add the boiling water and cook 3-4 minutes, stirring

> constantly. Let cool. You can also add a few drops of clove oil to

> discourage mildew and to act as a preservative.

 

Huzzah for the paste recipie. i have several myself. The thing you

want to keep in mind when looking at paste verses glue is " Is this

reversable?" In book and paper repair, it is preferred that the method

of repair be reversable and not be harmful to the work it is being

used upon. This is important to scribal arts. Also, a word of caution.

Clove oil may discolor or damage paper. Test a small piece of the

paper you are intending to use the paste on first. Apply the paste to

the paper and let it sit in a dry sunny window for a week. if any

discoloration results, do not include the oil. Some adverse affects

may not show up immediately, but caution is the better part of valor.

Also if strength is required in your use with paper, thin japanese

tissue can be used to help with the mend of joints and tears. Always

use tissue that is slightly thinner than the paper you are applying it

to and be sure to fether the edges.

 

Ari

==

THL Auguaire Uisnagh

 

 

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 02:41:26 -0500

From: Melanie Wilson <MelanieWilson at compuserve.com>

To: "INTERNET:sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>

Subject: Glue

 

>I don't know if glue was used in period or not, but I wouldn't be at

all surprised; it's used currently when fixing half-drilled pearls and

other gemstone beads to earring posts and such.

 

Boiling down elder leaves makes a very strong, if smelly, glue. It was used

in fixing flights to arrows, traditionally, not sure about pearls though.

 

Mel

 

 

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:25:39 -0600

From: Gunnora Hallakarva <gunnora at bga.com>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Glue

 

Funny that this should come up right at the moment.  I've just been

corresponding with Master Jarnakar Guthrothsson, who had a selection of several

period glues in the Gulf Wars A&S Champions display.

 

He had "fish glue" (aka "isenglass glue") made from the swim bladders of fish --

traditionally sturgeon, but this example was his local lake's fish.  This glue

was traditionally used by luthiers in building/repairing musical instruments.  

It's a clear glue, offensively aromatic, but very tough.

 

He also had a hide glue.  You can get rabbit skin glue commercially even today.  The hide glue is made from "animal scraps" I guess.  You'd want to avoid as much

fat and muscle as possible, since I think the collagen portion of the hide is

what makes the glue work. The hide glue has some aroma, but it's not bad, and it

sets up tough, tougher in fact than commercial carpenter's glues.  I've heard

horror stories about people making rabbit-skin glue sizing, and having it set up

in the mixing vessel and not ever coming back out.

 

Finally, Master Jarnakar had a mixed hide and horn glue on display as well.

 

I'd guess that Master Jarnakar would be very willing to share his recipes for

these glues -- he had several copies of his documentation available for

handouts.  If he is willing, perhaps we can get him to post his glue information to this list (or send it to me and I'll post it).

 

::GUNNORA::

 

 

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 18:24:37 -0400 (EDT)

From: <SNSpies at aol.com>

To: sca-arts at UKANS.EDU

Subject: 'Primitive Archer' magazine

 

I am looking for information on elder glue which is reputed to have appeared

in an issue of 'Primitive Archer' magazine.  Is there anyone out there who

might actually have this?!!  Thanks.

 

Nancy (Ingvild)

 

<the end>



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