corsets-msg - 5/6/07
Tudor and Elizabethian corsets. making them.
NOTE: See also these files: hoops-msg, underwear-msg, headgear-msg, linen-msg,
hose-msg, hose-manu-MA-art, ruffs-msg, clothing-L-msg.
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Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: Lisa.MacDougall at library.ubc.CA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: corset advice
Date: 19 Oct 1993 14:39:03 -0400
Just a note:
Remember to remove your underwire bra before trying on your Tudor corset!
I now have one very flat bra :)
Bronwyn ferch Elys ap Llewellyn
Lionsgate (or is that Eisenmarch?), An Tir
From: corliss at hal.PHysics.wayne.EDU (David J. Corliss)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Undergarments
Date: 15 Sep 1994 10:12:05 -0400
Rosalyn Rice writes that "they didn't seem to wears bras", holding this garment
to be Victorian. Cat Okita replied that foundations were worn in late period
just the same.
A bra is a short form of a corset, supporting the bust but not confining the
waist. As an indication of this, in late period, many corsets were laced up the
front, so there wearer needed no assistance in getting them on. The laces would
be tied in a bow between in the center of the bust and the ends tucked into the
corset. Often times, the ends of these laces would be decorated, just as laces
for any other purpose. Thus, this pretty little bow became a standard part of
the fashion of the corset. It may still be found on many bras today, long after
the original purpose has been forgotten, and still displays the ancestry of the
bra from a garment of stays and laces.
.......this has been a public service message from the Middle Kingdom
College of Sciences........
.......which is looking for some well qualified
person or persons to write A&S crtiteria for the engineering aspects of
costuming: hopefully, this will help to bring work on foundations and other
undergarments out of the closet and into a format where all who desire can
easily see the _structural_ aspects of costuming.
From: liversen at physiology.medsch.ucla.edu (Lori Iversen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Corset question
Date: 24 Aug 1995 20:11:09 GMT
Organization: UCLA
In article <41gpt0$ioi at nnrp.ucs.ubc.ca>, johnna at unixg.ubc.ca (Johnna E Fisher) says:
>
>I was wondering if it is possible to adequately tighten one's own corset
>without any help. Could anyone offer suggestions? There have been many
>times when I needed to put on my corset in order to check proper fit of
>my sewing projects and there was no one about to help. I find it almost
>impossible to tighten the silly thing as much as I need by myself. There
>must be a trick to this, right...?
>
>Morgaine
Weeellll...it's not really our period, although it is *a* period:
install a fastening busk in the front of your corset, a la mid-to-
late Victorians. They should be available through the same people
who sell you your corset stays. That way, you only need assistance
once; thereafter you can leave the back laces tied and simply hook
yourself up (and then, at the end of the day, you get to literally
blow the bolts -- almost better than sex!). If your body size
changes a bit, get help to realign your laces.
Cheers,
Alexis
% Lori Iversen %
% The Valley, CA %
From: bjm10 at cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Corset question
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 11:43:23
Organization: Cornell University
>In article <41gpt0$ioi at nnrp.ucs.ubc.ca>, johnna at unixg.ubc.ca (Johnna E Fisher)
>says:
>>
>>I was wondering if it is possible to adequately tighten one's own corset
>>without any help. Could anyone offer suggestions? There have been many
My wife did the following: Use VERY extra-long string on the corset. Put
it on backwards and semi-tighten it. Slide it around, grab the strings, and
make sure they cross each other after coming out the bottom. Pull forward
and tie in front. Tuck the string in under the corset.
This works for the fairly merciful corsets of the 18th, 17th, and 16th
centuries. It can't be done for Victorian corsets.
That's another thing: Do NOT use the standards of the Victorian hourglass
figure for an Elizabethan corset. Also, portraits of Elizabeth are hardly a
good thing to go by. The lines of her form were probably "enhanced" by the
artist, not to mention her sharp facial features lead me to believe that she
had an unusually slender form to begin with.
A great deal of the effect of tiny-waistedness is derived from the extension
of the bottom of the corset into the "skirt" area in the front, coupled with
the hoops bringing the hips out real wide-like. The eye is drawn along the
inverted triangle and an optical illusion of greater slenderness is produced
if done properly (don't ask me how to make it--I just watch women get into
and out of the dresses).
From: Barb at DISTANT-CARAVANS.reno.nv.us (Barbara Morgan)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Corset question
Date: 26 Aug 1995 06:32:08 GMT
Organization: Great Basin Internet Services, Reno, NV
>>In article <41gpt0$ioi at nnrp.ucs.ubc.ca>, johnna at unixg.ubc.ca (Johnna E Fisher)
>>says:
>>>
>>>I was wondering if it is possible to adequately tighten one's own corset
>>>without any help. Could anyone offer suggestions? There have been many
>
>In article <bjm10.72.000BB973 at cornell.edu>, bjm10 at cornell.edu
(Bryan J. Maloney) says
>My wife did the following: Use VERY extra-long string on the corset.
>Put it on backwards and semi-tighten it. Slide it around, grab the strings,
>and make sure they cross each other after coming out the bottom. Pull
>forward and tie in front. Tuck the string in under the corset.
My Lady,
One of thing you might consider in the future is building the corset into
the bodic so you can get into it by yourself.
It kind of depends on how your figure shapes up. I am not blessed with an
over abundance bust.
On my most sucessful Elizabethian gown I built the corset into the bodic
by adding several layers of stiff interfacing.
Then I added a stomacher that attached in a V in the front. On each side
of the V there are large pant hooks and eyes. Hooks on the bodic, eyes
on the stomacher. Inside of the stomacher there are two layers of plastic
needle point canvas. The gown also has 5 of the same large pant hooks on the
bodice and corrasponding eyes on the waist band on the skirt, to fight
gabitis. All of the applique and beading where done before the bodice was
assembled.
"If you want to take a look at it and have access to a web viewer see:"
http://www.greatbasin.com/~caravan/burglg.gif
I am not the Lady in the photo. Alas I have yet to figure out how to take
good pictures of myself from across the room.
The hat was constructed with plastic needle point canvas, duck tape and
wire. "Let's hear it for duck tape."
I know this is not the most athentic way of constructing a bodic but I seem
to have misplaced my maid and my Lord Husband is not always around when I
want to change my dress.
Amaryllis
aka: Barb Morgan
Barb at DISTANT-CARAVANS.reno.nv.us
http://www.greatbasin.com/~caravan/
From: tigger at fastlane.net (Kim Ann Innes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Corset question
Date: 24 Aug 1995 23:33:12 GMT
Organization: National Knowledge Network
> johnna at unixg.ubc.ca (Johnna E Fisher) writes:
> I was wondering if it is possible to adequately tighten one's own corset
> without any help. Could anyone offer suggestions? There have been many
> times when I needed to put on my corset in order to check proper fit of
> my sewing projects and there was no one about to help. I find it almost
> impossible to tighten the silly thing as much as I need by myself. There
> must be a trick to this, right...?
>
> Morgaine
Morgaine:
It's not really period, but I made my newest corset with the lacing on the left
front instead of the back. That way I can get myself in & out alone. I didn't
want the lacing in the center front because I wanted it as smooth as possible.
This means that I can actually dress myself completely in garb that has
front-opening bodices.
I also sew lacing (shoelaces) to the corset around the waistband so that
I can tie the underskirt to the corset; it prevents the underskirt from drooping
below the hemline of the overskirt (and I always tie the overskirt to the inside
of the bodice for the same reason).
Kim (tigger at fastlane.net)
For needlework, costuming, & heraldry books
and trim for costumes/sewing, visit my homepages:
http://www.fastlane.net/homepages/tigger/
From: brettwi at ix.netcom.com(Brett Williams )
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Women's Costuming
Date: 2 Jan 1996 19:22:05 GMT
Organization: Netcom
In <4ca95f$qfq at news1.netzone.com> quilter at netzone.com (Sharon Bolton)
writes:
>Are stays worn under the bodice?
They're worn by anyone with pretensions to class and fashion-- meaning
that any woman with aspirations of being termed a 'goodwife', as
opposed to one only a step away from parish charity, would have some
kind of stiffening in their bodice/undergarments.
The popular notion that a corset is a Garment From Hell, designed by
Torquemada and his minions, is Victorian. It is not possible to
tightlace in a Tudor corset.
Some years ago I wrote a Tournaments Illuminated article on drafting a
Tudor/Elizabethan/Cavalier corset from one's own measurements. I
personally don't believe in squishing oneself into a corset 'sized' for
a differently-shaped body than that of mine own. I've worn my corset
for 14 to 18 hour days and have been comfortable. I laughingly
described a Tudor corset to a friend of mine last Saturday as the
period equivalent of a Wonderbra-- it's designed to compress and
uplift, but not to torture. I actually find my corset more comfortable
than an underwire bra.
ciorstan
From: jpathomas at aol.com (JPAThomas)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: garb: tudor corsets???
Date: 22 Mar 1996 03:17:32 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
There's not much information for as early as you want, (check Nora Waugh,
_Corsets and Crinolines_) but the shape is the same as the later Tudor
corset. Our current concept of cutting edge technology is Jean Hunnisett,
_Period Costume for Stage and Screen, 1600-1800_ (the green one); I made
one from her instructions last fall and I'm very happy with it.
Best of luck,
Mistress Angelina Nicollette de Beaumont
Lyondemere, Caid
From: parkerd at mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA (Diana Parker)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: garb: tudor corsets???
Date: 26 Mar 1996 23:56:43 -0500
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
JPAThomas <jpathomas at aol.com> wrote:
>There's not much information for as early as you want, (check Nora Waugh,
>_Corsets and Crinolines_) but the shape is the same as the later Tudor
>corset. Our current concept of cutting edge technology is Jean Hunnisett,
> _Period Costume for Stage and Screen, 1600-1800_ (the green one); I made
>one from her instructions last fall and I'm very happy with it.
Hmmmm, the original request has faded off my system, so I may be
right off track... but for mid to late underpinnings, I like
"Underneath It All" & "European Costuming."
Neither one provides actual patterns, but each provides
construction details & drawings. UIA shows photographs of some surviving
examples.
cheers
Tabitha (sorry, can't find either one right now on the bookshelves, so I
can't give author or publisher information in this post. If you
can't locate it, email will likely spur me to look harder.)
----------------------------------------------
Diana Parker parkerd at mcmaster.ca
Security Services CUC - 201
McMaster University (905) 525-9140 (x24282)
From: Drea Leed <aleed at dnaco.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Corsetry Web Page
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 22:52:43 +0000
Organization: EriNet Online 513 436-1700 (Voice)
Just thought I'd drop a note to all the good gentles on the Rialto: I
have a web page up and running which exhaustively covers the subject of
the Elizabethan corset: period materials and modern substitutes, sources
for boning, how to make a pattern that fits, and all sorts of other odds
and ends. It also has some rudimentary (and ever-expanding) information
on basic Elizabethan costume. If you're interested, check it out and
tell me what you think!
It's at:
http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/
Drea Leed (Drea di' Pellegrini)
From: tdewinter at aol.com (TDEWINTER)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: corsetry question
Date: 24 Jun 1996 09:27:11 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
In article <4out3m$43h at nw101.infi.net>, lyon at infi.net at infi.net (Lyon)
writes:
>Can anyone tell me when the corsetcame into to use in France?
>Earlier or later than England?
>Giovanna Mancuso
>andreah at cpsnet.com
According to Mistress Louise of Woodsholme, the earliest existing *corset*
is from England, from the Elizabethan period, and is the only one from
this period.
Apparently, it is unknown when corsets became boned (not just heavy
fabric), and when they started being worn. If you look at old manuscripts
you can see that many of the women's breasts are up in a place that
breasts don't normal go. This would tend to suggest that they were
wearing some sort of corset-like garment from, at least, the 13th century
onward (in France and England). Unfortunately there is no documentation
to prove it.
Hope this helps, and if anyone has documentation to the contrary, please,
please, please let us know.
Countess Tristana de Winter (c.k.a. Trista)
Barony of Gyldenholt
Caid
From: gfrose at cotton (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: corsetry question
Date: 24 Jun 1996 23:39:50 GMT
Organization: Not Much
Greetings, all, from Katerine Rountre.
Countess Tristana de Winter writes:
: Apparently, it is unknown when corsets became boned (not just heavy
: fabric), and when they started being worn. If you look at old manuscripts
: you can see that many of the women's breasts are up in a place that
: breasts don't normal go. This would tend to suggest that they were
: wearing some sort of corset-like garment from, at least, the 13th century
: onward (in France and England). Unfortunately there is no documentation
: to prove it.
Actually, what it suggests to me, is that they were wearing kirtles.
Kirtles are described in surviving literature. The term referes to
different things at different times, but at least part of the time,
it refers to an undergarment worn between a loose bottom layer and
the "official" underdress, that is closely fitted in the bodice.
I have made such layers, and routinely wear them, sometimes _as_ the
underdress, since I'm not quite up to making four layers for normal
wear, and sometimes as just a bodice with three layers.
In my experiece, careful fitting together with multiple layers is
quite sufficient to, er, maintain even the, er, amplest upper
storey.
I see no reason to suppose boning, or anything we normally would call
corsetry.
Cheers,
-- Katerine/Terry
From: foxd at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (daniel fox)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: corsetry question
Date: 5 Jul 1996 05:00:27 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
In article <4rhdk2$avk at newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
TDEWINTER <tdewinter at aol.com> wrote:
>In article <4r6rds$snm at everest.iserv.net>, route66 at iserv.net (Gary J.
>Wolverton) writes:
>
>> Gentle Lady,
>>
>> Recalling my somewhat limited (if not non-existent) knowledge of
>>feminine undergarments, speaking of the bosom being located in an
>>unnatural location, I believe you may be referring to a *butsier* (sp)
>>instead of a corset. I was always under the impression that the corset
>>was simply and specifically for slimming the waist-line whereas the
>>bustier came later in the time-line and was a combination of a corset
>>and a braziere. Of course, these are only my humble nonsensical
>>ramblings and could very well be in error. But it is food for thought.
>>
>>G. Wolverton
>>from the heart of the swamp within the silver swords region of the
>>Middle Realm.
>>G. Wolverton
>>Silver Swords | Middle Kingdom
>>
>My Good Lord,
>(this is a form of address, not an exclamation)
>
>"Corset" is usually thought of as a heavily boned piece of heavy material
>(usually worn in the 15th and 16th century) that flattened the breasts and
>shaped the torso,usually into a cylinder shape. As I used it in my first
>post, it referred to the above, as well as referring to the unknown
>garments worn in earlier centuries.
>
>The bustier is, I believe, a relatively modern term for a demi-corset
>attached to a bra.
>
>Again, I believe the unnatural placement of breasts in the paintings is
>due to some sort of corset, but not a bustier, since that came much later.
>
>Hope this helps your knowledge of women's undergarments :-)
>
>In service,
>C. Tristana de Winter
>Caid
Want to confuse matters a little further.
Corset or Corsetus is referred to in 13th and 14th century English and French
Royal Accounts. This lead early costume researchers to assume that they
were the same garment used from the 1500s. (BTW, the 16th century term for
what we call a corset was "a pair of bodies").
However, Newton in _Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince_ and Kay
Staninland in "The Medieval Corset" in _Costume_ #3, 1969, have pointed out
that the fabrics ordered for the garment include velvet, fur for lining and
ve often embroidery. (One is described as having ladies in boats fishing
for hearts stitched on it.)
Current theory, last I heard, is that the 'Corsettus' was actually an over
gown or an oval cloak.
Go figure.
Audelindis de RHeims, OL
From: cyberspace at midlink.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: corsetry question
Date: 7 Jul 1996 00:54:10 GMT
Organization: Pennsylvania Online [Usenet News Server for Hire]
<heavy-duty snip>
>You got "bustier" right -- but the term "corset" was not I believe
>used in our period. Arnold refers to the dissected corset-like object
>in "Patterns of Fashion" as a "pair of bodies" (i.e., a bodice?), and
>subsequent to that the boned-to-death support garment worn over the
>chestal area became known as "stays" at least through the early
>20th century, when I note you could purchase a set of "training stays"
>for your 10-year-old daughter out of the Sears, Roebuck catalog.
>All of which is not to say that the term "corset" wasn't used
>simultaneously with "stays," at least after the 18th century, but
>I've never seen a Renaissance-era breast smoosher referred to
>as a "corset" per se.
>
>-- Alexis
