linen-msg - 1/16/08
Period and modern linen. Sources. Care.
NOTE: See also the files: hemp-cloth-msg, emb-linen-msg, textiles-msg, velvet-msg, cotton-art, silk-msg, lace-msg, cotton-msg, fabric-ident-msg, weaving-lnks, weaving-msg.
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Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: 15 Jun 92
From: ewright at convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Angharad ver' Rhuawn (Terry Nutter) writes:
>(1) But for our purposes, it is worth remembering that
> lightweight cotton is almost always a substitute for linen anyhow.
I haven't denied that, and wouldn't because it's true. Linen is somewhat
stronger than cotton and has a slightly different feel, but these are
usually not significant. Moreover, I have recently found that some
maufacturers are starting to produce "linen-look" materials made from
100% cotton rather than poly-rayon synthetics.
As far as cotton being out of period, that's true and it isn't. Cotton
was at least known in most of the places and times we recreate, but it
was usually quite expensive. Then again, so was silk. Linen, however,
was available and used everywhere and, as you yourself noted, cotton is
a perfectly reasonable substitute for linen. Moreover, not everybody insists
on having exactly the right material for his country and time period. Most
people are more than willing to make compromises, such as wearing cotton
during the summer, for the sake of health and comfort.
-- Nicholas van Leyden
From: Brett and Karen Williams <brettwi at ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: [Q]s about Linen
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:48:31 -0700
morphis at niuhep.physics.niu.edu wrote:
> I am looking at making a linen tunic and braes, the local
> fabric store has hanky wt, lt wt and somewhat heavier wt linen on sale
> for $4.00 to $5.50/yd, (44"-47") width. Is this an excellent, good,
> modest horrible price?
If it is indeed 100% linen, that's an exceptionally good price. I, who
I'll cheerfully is a little sheepishly admit own more fabric than I can
use even if I did nothing else but sew in my waking hours for the next
year, would buy as much of that linen as I could afford. Linen usually
runs US$9.00/yd on sale in my local non-discount fabric stores and is
more usually $15/yd to $22/yd. I'm in Los Angeles, by the way. WHERE IS
THAT STORE?!! ;)
> I was thinking of making an undertunic with the lt. wt.
> and an overtunic with the heavier. (I am somewhat dubious about
> the hanky wt.)
The hanky weight would make an excellent light weight chemise or
undertunic, or, now that I think about it, a coif for your child or
yourself. Linen is not a fragile fiber.
> The linen is made in China and labeled "dry clean only".
> (also does not meet the requirements for children's pjs :)
If the cloth is indeed 100% linen, it's washable. However, keep in mind
that any treatment the fabric has been given, and possibly to some
extent the dye, may be fugitive upon washing, also the cut edges of the
fabric might be subject to raveling in various degrees. It's been my
practical experience that linen labelled dry clean only has been
finished with a type of chemical size or treatment to keep it relatively
crisp. Expect linen to wrinkle dreadfully just from the force of laying
on of eyes... :) If you can't tolerate wrinkles and creases in your
clothes, linen is not for you. Fabric for children's sleepwear is
required to have a chemical flame retardant; I have very rarely seen
such on the bolt in a fabric store.
If sewing linen (aaaah! love just touching it!), I'd keep a spray bottle
of water next to the iron and iron it ruthlessly into submission as the
seams were being done. Before cutting into the fabric, I would have
stitched the raw edges with an overcast or zig-zag from my sewing
machine, then done the process below. I would also plan a good seam
finish into the garment to make the finished garment last longer (e.g.
I'd leave no raw edges exposed to wear and tear).
My favorite 'finish' for a blouse-weight linen garment is to remove it
from the washing machine and iron it dry. Yeah, it's *ironing* and
requires a bit of pre-planning, however each successive washing and
ironing makes the linen silkier to the touch and has the added benefit
of keeping it from wrinkling a little less while on the body. A little
less. ;) Linen fabric in period was given a treatment called 'beetling',
which constitutes beating the crap out of the fabric with a wooden
mallet. I ran across a black-and-white photo of an old Irish beetling
machine built out of wood done on the cog and triphammer idea a couple
of weeks ago.
> Any thoughts on why it would be dry clean only? How much
> shrinkage should I expect? The hanky and lt wt stuff is white the
> other is various colors including a nice green, which I understand
> from the archives is a period color... anybody know what other
> colors were period for linen?
> Robert
> Morphis at physics.niu.edu
No shrinkage unless the linen is blended with something else. Check that
fiber content label again! Upon washing linen the 'hand' might be a
little different than that on the bolt, since you might have washed out
a chemical size applied to keep the fabric from wrinkling too badly
while in shipping and display, or the dye might wash out to an unknown
extent. Ah, I love the smell of formaldehyde in the morning... (laugh)
If in doubt, cut a piece of the cloth about the size of your hands,
stitch the edges to keep it from raveling and toss the sample into the
washing machine and/or dryer to see how it reacts to your planned
treatment.
Linen is well nigh impossible to dye well with natural dyes as the
nature of the bast fiber prevents a good chemical bond between dye and
fiber. Wool has no such problem. Generally speaking, I would tend to
stay away from the colored linens-- however a pastel-ish linen that
looks like the color had faded or washed out from a natural color with
originally more intensity would be acceptable. Perhaps a light intensity
of Saxon green is the green you've described?
ciorstan
(the current issue of Interweave Press' magazine called SpinOff has an
article in it on dyeing Saxon green with woad, with some very good
photos of the color on wool)
From: capncarp at aol.com (CapnCarp)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: [Q]s about Linen
Date: 28 Jul 1997 17:57:22 GMT
>ng at making a linen tunic and braes, the local
>fabric store has hanky wt, lt wt and somewhat heavier wt linen on sale
>for $4.00 to $5.50/yd, (44"-47") width. Is this an excellent, good,
>modest horrible price?
The price is actually quite acceptable, having been until recently
involved in purveying period fabrics, linen being one.
> I was thinking of making an undertunic with the lt. wt.
>and an overtunic with the heavier. (I am somewhat dubious about
>the hanky wt.)>
The hanky weight would make a lovely undertunic, just remember to use 100%
cotton thread so that the seam will give before the thread cuts the
fabric; and, as with all linen, roll/flatfell/French seam it, unless you
like the ravelled look.
>The linen is made in China and labeled "dry clean only".
>(also does not meet the requirements for children's pjs :)
>Any thoughts on why it would be dry clean only? How much
>shrinkage should I expect?
Wash it in hot water(yes, I know, sacrilege, but it's the only way to
really pre-shrink it); it will probably shrink about 1 1/2 to 2 inches
each direction at least.
> The hanky and lt wt stuff is white the
>other is various colors including a nice green, which I understand
>from the archives is a period color... anybody know what other
>colors were period for linen?
It's labelled "dry clean only" probably because, if you wash it, you'll
find it's not colorfast.(at least the stuff I bought of same description
was, years ago.)
I'm working on about 4 linen projects for the War right now, myself.
Yours,
Geoffrey Soulspeeder
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:12:03 -0600
From: Karen Harris <karen at georesearch.com>
Subject: Re: [Q]s about Linen
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Robert wrote:
> I am looking at making a linen tunic and braes, the local
> fabric store has hanky wt, lt wt and somewhat heavier wt linen on sale
> for $4.00 to $5.50/yd, (44"-47") width. Is this an excellent, good,
> modest horrible price?
It's okay, I suppose; the Townsend catalog (http://www.jastown.com) also
carries linen intended for 18th and 19th century reenactment groups that
does good "stunt-double" work for SCA-period linen, and that's roughly
the price of the stuff they carry, too.
<SNIP!>
> The linen is made in China and labeled "dry clean only".
> (also does not meet the requirements for children's pjs :)
Then it's probably a linen blend, and not 100% linen. I started working
with an 18th century reenactment group when I was eleven years old (the
Colonial Company of the Claude Moore Colonial Farm at Turkey Run), and
_all_ pieces of my outfit (except for the stays I made when I was 13)
were made of real 100% made-from-flax-for-reenactors linen. Not only was
it machine washable (but I strongly recommend line-drying; it ends up not
lasting as long if you dry it by machine), but it's very much up to the
flammability requirements for children's pyjamas -- this stuff ain't
flammable AT ALL. I'm fairly sure this goes for all linen -- real 100%
linen does not burn. Smoulders a bit, but that's about it.
If you're the type of person that does a lot of campfire cooking, goes to
a lot of outdoor events in the summer, or wants period-looking cloth, I'd
strongly suggest putting together an outfit out of this stuff -- it
breathes really well (this coming from a kid that spent lots of summers
in the middle of a field picking weeds in 2-3 layers of linen garments in
the hot July and August summers in Virginia) and looks period in addition
to being not very flammable. (I wouldn't say that it's _completely_
inflammable, but you really have to get it into some hot fire before it
even starts smouldering.)
> Any thoughts on why it would be dry clean only? How much
> shrinkage should I expect? The hanky and lt wt stuff is white the
> other is various colors including a nice green, which I understand
> from the archives is a period color... anybody know what other
> colors were period for linen?
As always, pre-wash the real linen. As to the stuff you've found in the
fabric store, my suspicion is that it's a linen blend. When I was still
doing the reenactment work, we had to stick to period dye colors (which
we generally did with Rit on the garment once it was sewn together), and
there's really quite a good range of colors out there that are quite
period. (Fluorescents, generally speaking, are Right Out.) You may want
to consider whether your persona would have had those dyestuffs (or the
ability to afford dyed cloth) of a certain color available -- throughout
most of the period, true black was difficult to manage, for example.
> Thanks for any help you can give.
You're welcome! :)
Yours in Service to the Dream,
Karen Larsdatter
Barony of Ponte Alto, Atlantia
(Volunteer, Colonial Company, 1985-1992)
From: tjustus at sprynet.com (T Justus)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: [Q]s about Linen
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 04:28:05 GMT
Sounds like you are on to a good deal, if it's labeled 100% linen on
the bolt. I bought some fine pink linen from Hancock fabrics a couple
of years ago (for a modern blouse) and discovered that printed on the
end of the cloth was "Made in China 100% ramie" although the bolt
was labeled 100% linen. (Ramie is a vegetable fiber, also known as
nettlecloth.) The blouse has worn well, and does not wrinkle as much
as linen would.
Linen can be sucessfully overdyed. That is, if the fabric is already
dyed you can re-dye it a darker shade. This only applied to linen
that's been dyed already and has the mordant in it. Wash the fabric
first. Rit dye works fine. When dyeing, don't pack the washer too
full, and use enough dye for your yardage. That way you can use that
deep discounted 100% linen in lime green that no one else wanted...
redye it dark green or blue. Stay in the same general color family--
don't expect to change orange to blue.
Tracy Justus AKA Clare de Crecy
From: nachtanz at patriot.net (Susan and Ken Reed)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: [Q]s about Linen
Date: 29 Jul 1997 20:45:31 GMT
Karen Harris <karen at georesearch.com> wrote:
> Then it's probably a linen blend, and not 100% linen. I started working
> with an 18th century reenactment group when I was eleven years old (the
> Colonial Company of the Claude Moore Colonial Farm at Turkey Run), and
> _all_ pieces of my outfit (except for the stays I made when I was 13)
> were made of real 100% made-from-flax-for-reenactors linen. Not only was
> it machine washable (but I strongly recommend line-drying; it ends up not
> lasting as long if you dry it by machine), but it's very much up to the
> flammability requirements for children's pyjamas -- this stuff ain't
> flammable AT ALL. I'm fairly sure this goes for all linen -- real 100%
> linen does not burn. Smoulders a bit, but that's about it.
>
> If you're the type of person that does a lot of campfire cooking, goes to
> a lot of outdoor events in the summer, or wants period-looking cloth, I'd
> strongly suggest putting together an outfit out of this stuff -- it
> breathes really well (this coming from a kid that spent lots of summers
> in the middle of a field picking weeds in 2-3 layers of linen garments in
> the hot July and August summers in Virginia) and looks period in addition
> to being not very flammable. (I wouldn't say that it's _completely_
> inflammable, but you really have to get it into some hot fire before it
> even starts smouldering.)
>
> Karen Larsdatter
> Barony of Ponte Alto, Atlantia
> (Volunteer, Colonial Company, 1985-1992)
Karen, my dear,
You have given very dangerous advice. Linen is a cellulosic fiber and has
the same chemistry as cotton and ramie and hemp, all other natural
cellulosic fibers. This means linen has the same flammability as other
cellulosic fibers, all other factors being equal--and we all know how
flammable cotton is. I have a M.S. in Textiles and one of my classes for
my last semester of grad school was on textile flammability (I did
extensive testing). There is NO difference between cotton and linen in
terms of flammability and if you read the technical literature on textile
flammability, cellulosics are classified as having the same flammability
and have been for years. On a personal note, I have a 100% linen gown
which I caught on fire at Pennsic about 7 years ago and can show you the
burn hole. New linen MIGHT have sizings on it that may retard
flammability, but these will wash out in a few washings.
Silk and wool, on the other hand, are self-extinguishing IF you remove
them from the flame source. However, you can be greatly injured waiting
for that to happen, so we should all be cautious around flames regardless
of what fibers we are wearing.
Please, everyone, linen IS highly flammable!
Susan Reed/Teleri Talgellawg
P.S. Karen, you can e-mail me privately if you want some references and a
more detailed discussion of the factors involved in flammability.
--
Susan and Ken Reed AFPOPA nachtanz at patriot.net
RK Architects, 900 S. Washington St., Falls Church, VA
From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: [Q]s about Linen
Date: 29 Jul 1997 19:46:07 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
morphis at niuhep.physics.niu.edu wrote:
: I am looking at making a linen tunic and braes, the local
: fabric store has hanky wt, lt wt and somewhat heavier wt linen on sale
: for $4.00 to $5.50/yd, (44"-47") width. Is this an excellent, good,
: modest horrible price?
It is an excellent price. Not _quite_ a "fantabulous buy the entire bolt
and ask if they have more at the warehouse you can re-sell to your
friends" price, but definitely good.
: I was thinking of making an undertunic with the lt. wt.
: and an overtunic with the heavier. (I am somewhat dubious about
: the hanky wt.)
The stuff labelled as "handkerchief linen" can vary significantly, in my
experience. Sometimes it's too loosely woven to stand up well once you've
washed the size out of it. But my general rule of thumb is that for actual
_underwear_ (i.e., you'll always be wearing something over it except in
the privacy of your pavillion) it is impossible to use _too_ lightweight a
linen. My favorite period underwear is made from "drafting linen" -- which
alas is no longer to be had for love or money -- which is about the same
weight as china silk. If your "handkerchief linen" is similar to what I
find by that name, it would probably be your best choice for the
underwear. (Hint: prewash it once before cutting and then a couple times
after sewing the garment, to help get rid of all the size and soften it
up. The longer you wear and wash linen, the more comfortable it gets.)
: The linen is made in China and labeled "dry clean only".
: (also does not meet the requirements for children's pjs :)
Just about _everything_ is labelled "dry clean only" these days. My
impression from talking to fabric store employees is that it's mostly a
CYA measure to protect fabric manufacturers from stupid claims from
customers who have no idea what the natural behavior of fabric is. If you
want that nice crisp "linen look" that is generated by quantities of
sizing, then you either need to dry clean the finished garment or
re-starch it every time you wash it. Guess what most people would rather
do? My rule of thumb is that if I ever expect to wash a garment, then I
pre-wash the fabric exactly the way I expect to treat it later. There are
some garments that I don't wash (e.g., brocades, velvets, some silks,
anything with embroidery or fur on it) and if they ever got seriously
dirty I'd have them dry-cleaned. But as long as you know what changes
washing is going to make in a fabric (e.g., you may have to iron it or
line-dry it if you want it to lie flat for cutting) then ignore the
cleaning intructions. (There are times when I think that all that arcane
lore about fabric care will some day only survive among historic
costumers.)
: other is various colors including a nice green, which I understand
: from the archives is a period color... anybody know what other
: colors were period for linen?
Linen did not hold colors fast very well, so "pastel" colors will be the
most authentic approximation of what was available in period from natural
dyes. (Modern synthetic dyes get around the problem -- I've even seen
linen for sale in "international orange" <ugh>.) Part of the well-known
vestments of the Order of the Golden Fleece are lined with a salmon-pink
linen. The Museum of London "Textiles and Clothing" book mentions
inventories of linen sewing thread in a variety of colors (unspecified).
But there is a reason why "white linen" was the standard for underclothes
-- it simply wasn't worthwhile to dye something that wouldn't be seen much
and wouldn't dye well anyway.
I tend to be a bit forgiving in myself (don't anyone faint now!) of using
more brightly colored linens for outer garments when I'm making a
California-weather version of a garment that by rights ought to be made
out of wool.
Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 22:38:46 -0700
From: Brett and Karen Williams <brettwi at ix.netcom.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
<