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hose-msg - 6/24/99


Hose and leggings. Period hose. Make modern versions. Substitutions.


NOTE: See also these files: knitting-msg, pants-msg, hose-manu-MA-art, spinning-msg, silk-msg, weaving-msg, underwear-msg, Knit-Stockngs-art, knit-stockngs-msg.





This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.


This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org


I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.


The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given by the individual authors.


Please  respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these messages. The  copyright status  of these messages  is  unclear at this time. If  information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give credit to the originator(s).


Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: Ginny Beatty

Subject: RE:Hose Question

Organization: NCR - Dayton, Ohio

Date: Mon, 3 Jan 1994 21:23:18 GMT


> gdaub at mcis.messiah.EDU writes:

>  I had a quick question about hose.  I know that some had atached feet to

>them, but not all did.  What does the bottom look like on those without

>feet?  Is it just cut off straight like pants?  Or is there a strap for under

>the heel to keep them in place?  Or..?  Thanks for the help.


Last post blanked out. The button on my newsreader is in the wrong place.


I have seen a manuscript where a farmer/peasant is wearing tight hose with bare feet and they look like stirrup pants.


To add on to the hose discussion, a friend of mine is researching 14th c. hose and underwear. Any advice on how the undergarments were created and how hose were attached would also be greatly appreciated.





Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: RE:Hose Question

From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honur Horne-Jaruk)

Date: Tue, 04 Jan 94 10:35:52 EST


gleason at scf16.scf.loral.com (Robert Gleason) writes:

> I too have a keen interest in this subject. I'd also like to know when men's

> became joined into one article like the tights of today instead of two leggin

> and a cod-like piece?


> Parlan MacGillivray.


Good Lord, in some places the joining of the legs predates the codpiece. If you

have/know the whereabouts of a TI collection, find (In the 80's somewhere I

think) my article "No more dropped drawers: Making codpieces fit and work"

-Apropos above, has anybody done an index to TI yet? If so, where do I get

one? If not, how do we get one done?

                  Alizaunde, who is lucky she remembers writing it.



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: hwt at bcarh11a.bnr.ca (Henry Troup)

Subject: Re: Hose Question

Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

Date: Mon, 10 Jan 1994 13:07:03 GMT


gdaub at mcis.messiah.EDU writes:

|>   I had a quick question about hose.  I know that some had atached feet to

|> them, but not all did.  What does the bottom look like on those without

|> feet?  Is it just cut off straight like pants?  Or is there a strap for under

|> the heel to keep them in place?  Or..?  Thanks for the help.


I've seen illustrations of stirrup hose - I think it was from the Luttrell

Psalter. It's a peasant, hoeing crops, and wear only shorts and hose. No

shoes, so you can see what appears to be that strap.


Henry Troup - H.Troup at BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions



From: vcarpentier at berksys.com (Victoria Carpentier)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: COSTUMING: Doublet help was Re: Rec.crafts.sca

Date: 17 Oct 1994 16:34:46 GMT

Organization: BSI


parkerd at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca (Diana Parker) wrote:

> Zach <zkessin at world.std.com> wrote:

> >Ok my question is this if I am making an early Tudor doublet what type

> >of pants/tights should I be wearing and what should I make them from.

> >

> >I figure some relativly simple wool pants should do. (Now if only i

> >remember where i put the books after the war).

> >

> >The point of this is dont kvetch about it. Just start talking about

> >crafts


> Apparently in an inventory of Henry VIII's wardrobe it listed x number of

> pairs of knitted hose.  I read this in someone's documentation for

> knitting for an A&S competition some years ago, so I cannot recall the


Having knitted a pair of hose, I *do not* recommend it. Men's dance

tights work very well if you can find them. "Rennaisance Tights" are a

brand I have purchased in the past.  My husband wears knit stockings that

I either make or 'gun socks'.  Gun socks are a knitted sock for covering

guns.  He has very thin legs and wears these regularly. Many costume

books descibe how to make stockings or tights by cutting on the bias to

the measurements.  One word of caution-buy men's tights. Nothing else

will fit.  Do not try to 'make' women's tights fit.


Good luck!


Armina Niederflub


* Victoria Carpentier           *    After Dark[tm] Support: *

* Berkeley Systems Tech Support *   All opinions are my own. *

* vcarpentier at berksys.com       *        mactech at berksys.com *




From: UDSD073 at DSIBM.OKLADOT.STATE.OK.US (Mike Andrews)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: COSTUMING: Doublet help was Re: Rec.crafts.sca

Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 09:13

Organization: The University of Oklahoma (USA)


vcarpentier at berksys.com (Victoria Carpentier) writes:

>Having knitted a pair of hose, I *do not* recommend it.  Men's dance

>tights work very well if you can find them. "Rennaisance Tights" are a

>brand I have purchased in the past.  My husband wears knit stockings that

>I either make or 'gun socks'.  Gun socks are a knitted sock for covering

>guns.  He has very thin legs and wears these regularly.  Many costume

>books descibe how to make stockings or tights by cutting on the bias to

>the measurements.  One word of caution-buy men's tights.  Nothing else

>will fit.  Do not try to 'make' women's tights fit.


But if you are fortunate enough to have a knitting machine, or

friend with one, tights are easier to make, and come out very

nicely indeed. A friend here in Namron has made me three lovely

pair of knitted tights: one white, one red/black counterchanged,

and one yellow/black counterchanged. All work very well, and hve

proven very sturdy.


Dance tights also work very well, if you can't have them knitted

to measure. I prefer Capezio mens' full-fashioned ballet tights,

which come in white, black, and several colors; the jewel-tone

colors are especially pleasing to the eye.  Danskin also makes

dance tights, but I am not so fond of them.


Bias-cut fabric tights are period, too, but are a real bear to

fit, and tend to sag. The sagging is, of course, equally period

and documentable. ;=)


Michael Fenwick of Fotheringhay, O.L. (Mike Andrews) Namron, Ansteorra



From: haslock at fiacha.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: COSTUMING: Doublet help was Re: Rec.crafts.sca

Date: 20 Oct 1994 01:05:13 GMT

Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


Greetings from Fiacha,


|> I would like to know if crocheted tights would be appropriate (given that

|> I don't have access to a knitting machine and consistency is not a term

|> to be used for my hand knitting). Does anyone have any comments on this?


|> Hawke


Discussions with lace makers about crochet suggest that the ealiest known

crochet hook is distinctly post period and so the likelihood of crochet tights

being period is pretty close to 0.


The discussions also included the detail that late period knitting machines

are known to exist and that they were used for making hose.


      Fiacha, lacemaker, weaver and general thread wierdo.



From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: knitting was Re: COSTUMING:

Date: 23 Oct 1994 22:07:13 -0400

Organization: Public Access Internet & UNIX


"But Liz, the toads are so, so, _hairy_..." "     I know, I like hair.

Just get to the quote from sapalmer at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sharon A Palmer), ok?"

>Mike Andrews <udsd007 at dsibm.okladot.state.okla.us> wrote:


>>But if you are fortunate enough to have a knitting machine, or

>>friend with one, tights are easier to make, and come out very


>When was the knitting frame invented?  I think it is period, or

>at least close to it.  I don't own Rudd's _History of Knitting_

>:-(, but if no one has it to hand, I could check it out from

>the library again.


From _Lace_Machines_And_Machine_Laces_ by Pat Earnshaw:


"Caps were handknitted, but stockings in the late fifteenth century were

cut from woven cloth. This made them difficult to pull on, and gave them a

tendency to fall into heavy wrinkles, a feature visible in many paintings

of that period.  The first mention of handknitted stockings in England

appears in an account of 7 September, 25 H 8, that is the 25th year of

Henry VIII's reign, or 1534:'paid for 4 peyr of knytt-hose viiis [8

shillings, or 40p]. In 1537 the future Henri II of France wore handknitted

silk hose. In 1561, the third year of her reign, Queen Elizabeth was

presented with her first pair of black silk stockings, handknitted in

England. The first pair of knitted worsted stockings is said to have been a

copy of a pair brought to England from Mantua. They were knitted by William

Rider and presented by him to the Earl of Pembroke. Timbs places this event

after 1561, Henson before, in the time of Edward VI (1547-53).

      The knitting of stockings was mechanized only a few decades later.

Aubrey, writing in the 1670's attributes the invention to a Rev William Lee

(c. 1556-16100, born at Woodborough in Nottinghamshire, educated at

Cambridge, and rector of nearby Calverton."


      I wish I could type more, but this is getting too long for a quote.

The upshot of the story is that steel wire-drawing was still primitive, the

prototype device was very difficult to construct as all the hooks had to

be made by hand and it could only produce a very coarse product. Lee

presented a pair of stockings knit on his invention to Queen Elizabeth,

hoping for her patronage but she recoiled from the 'pair of coarse uneven

hose in thick worsted and probably weighing the best part of a poud which

he offered her, and at the noise of the ugly awkward "engine" which had

constructed them.' She said if he might improve the machine to work in silk

and make stockings she could wear (and which wouldn't put English woolen

stocking knitters out of work) whe might reconsider. Lee worked on

improving his machine, but before he could show her the result, Elizabeth

died. James continuted her non-supportive policy.


      Henri !V invited Lee to set up a workshop in France to supply silk

stockings to the French Court, but he was scarcely established in 1610 when

Henri was assasinated and his widow Marie d'Medici withdrew all patronage,

Lee died the same year. Lee's brother James took went back to England and

set up an industry and became wildly successful. By 1620 the Stocking Frame

weavers were strong enough to form themselves into a trade associatio.


      So, while the knitting frame is just barely period it could not

produce work even close to the quality of hand knitting. I'm almost done

knitting a pair of wool stockings, but they are very coarse - probably

rather like Lee's machine knit ones :-)  The best plan unless you are an

incorrigble knitter is borrow a knitting machine and work on those - Lee's

revised machine had 16 hooks to the inch (the early one had 8) so if you

work on that scale you should be ok. Cut your stocking pattern from the

flat knit fabric (or knit to shape if you prefer) and stitch together. This

will give the effect of hand-knit stockings shaped to the leg with much

less work.




Liz Stokes         |       

Ilaine de Cameron  |

ilaine at panix.com   |



From: connect at aol.com (CONNECT)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: COSTUMING: Doublet help w

Date: 26 Oct 1994 10:37:02 -0400


If you cannot find tights that fit, you may want to try A) women's knitted

pants, or B) very snug sweats. If you are tucking them into boots, you can

probably get away with it.


One person in our group (Cynnabar) made hose out of cotton-blend knit

t-shirt material, cut on the bias. He said he made a trace of his leg, as

a pattern, then cut the fabric. It was too lose, so he shortened it up an

inch in the seams, and now it fits perfectly.  He liked this, since it was

comfortable and could be made in a variety of colors.


Pattie Rayl



From: sapalmer at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sharon A Palmer)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Plunderhosen

Date: 8 Nov 1994 01:15:57 GMT

Organization: The Ohio State University


CONNECT <connect at aol.com> wrote:

>In article <9411031738.AA00471 at jackalope.toontown>, neil at jackalope.UUCP

>(Neil Perkins 980-9892 51I05 jackalope) writes:


>What a wonderful name!  Where did you read it?  I've never come

>across a reference to "plunderhosen".


Richard Rutt's _History of Hand Knitting_ pg. 80 has a picture of

knitted truck hose with knitted-in slashes, at the Historical Museum

in Dresden, made in gold-colored silk. Probably from the middle of

the 16th century.  They have a knit-in codpiece and dip down in center

front rather daringly.





From: ckrupp at moose.uvm.EDU (Christina M. Krupp)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Plunderhosen

Date: 9 Nov 1994 11:17:41 -0500


OK, folks, I can't stand it any more! The correct spelling is:


The only "n" is at the end of the word.

The word has no connection with "pluNder".

It is derived from the German verb "pludern," which means "to be

full or puffy".


Hoping to stave off another misleading "folk etymology"


-- Marieke



From: jennifer.lease at arch2.nara.GOV (Jennifer Lease)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Costuming, hose

Date: 12 Jan 1995 09:38:14 -0500


Some friends of mine, including my lord, who do 15th Cen.

Landeskenecht re-enactments recommend a four way stretch cotton if

they can get it.  That way, I believe, the seams stay straighter and the

tights fit evenly.


I hope this helps!


Anna MacKenzie

Barony of the Bright Hills

K. of Atlantia

jennifer.lease at arch2.nara.gov



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: moore at mari.acc.stolaf.edu (Michael Moore)

Subject: Re: Costuming: hose?

Organization: St. Olaf College; Northfield, MN  USA

Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 17:49:00 GMT


tshelans at s-cwis.unomaha.edu (SHELANSKEY) writes:

>     I find myself asked to make a cotehardie for a gentleman.  That

>part is fine, no problem.  But how does one make the hose that he

>should wear with them?  How do you make them fit properly and most

>important, WHAT should I make them from?


>Tatiana Nikonovna


I am currently making a pair of hose for myself.

The trick seems to be lots of fittings; taking a tuck here and there

until they fit correctly.


The people I've talked to suggest working with stretchy fabric

(either naturally stretchy, or cut on the diagonal to the warp and weft

so that it stretches: "cut on the bias"?).      

For the leg part (thigh down to ankle), it can be tight-fitting everywhere

except the ankle: if it is tight there, your heel can't fit through.


for the foot part, I worked slowly with pins and "pencil" until I had

a pattern which fit closely to my foot.  The seams run along one side

of the foot, along the top of the foot to the toe, and for a short distance

along the other side of the foot at the toes and the heel.


I have yet to try the upper part :-)


This is not something I would want to have done to me by

someone I did not know well.


As said before: suggestions from experienced tailors would be

greatly appreciated!


Signoro Pellegrino d'Illuminatore

moore at stolaf.edu



From: iys6lri at mvs.oac.ucla.edu (Lori Iversen)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Costuming: hose?

Date: 12 Jan 1995 22:21:23 GMT

Organization: ucla


tshelans at s-cwis.unomaha.edu (SHELANSKEY) says:

>...how does one make the hose that he

>should wear with them?  How do you make them fit properly and most

>important, WHAT should I make them from?



>Tatiana Nikonovna


Alexis here!


Offhand (I'm at work; the library's at home), I can think of two

pattern sources:  in a Dover book by Kohler (book name escapes me; it's

a half-page size book that's widely available) there's a nasty-looking

pattern for hosen buried amongst the text (late middle ages section).

The other source is Katherine Holkebjor's *Patterns for Theatrical

Costume* (I think that's the correct title), with a hosen pattern that

seems to be based on Kohler's but which others who have attempted

hosen assure me is lot's easier than Kohler's.  I'll double-check

tonight and re-post tomorrow if any of this info is wrong. Incidentally,

I and most of my buds who build costumes (including pros, fans, and

SCA costumers) have all had very good luck using Holkebjor's patterns

as bases for our stuff.  At worst, she's a darn sight more accurate

and needs much less adjusting than Hill & Bucknell, whose book hers

most resembles.  She also has patterns for kimonos and hakama and other

specialty costumes which Hill & Bucknell don't. Someplace else you might

want to check is the pattern books at your local fabric store -- yes,

really!  Check the "active sportswear" section for aerobic wear; even

if you can't find full-on tights/hosen, one of them is bound to have

a pattern for leggings, which work if you're wearing over-the-ankle

shoes which hide the lack of knit-in feet.


There is, alas, no magic wand to wave over hosen to make them fit right.

You've just gotta keep fitting them over and over.  As for materials,

my first pair were cotton lycra knit, which is a bitch to work with

(especially without a serger) but fits nicely.  I've also used

loose jacquard knits and ribbed t-shirt material with varying results.

Probably your most period approach would be to use woven wool cut on

the bias, which generally ends up being prohibitively expensive because

you've gotta buy so much of it.  (In *The Return of Martin Guerre,* which

I have no trouble using as a reference because they did it so well and

obviously did *their* research, Martin refers fondly to a pair of hose

that his wife made him, of wool lined in *taffeta*, i.e., silk.  Warm

and pretty, no doubt, but you'd need to insure them every time you wore

them out!).


Alexis Vladescu                        Lori Iversen

WyvernHo-ette                          (IYS6LRI at mvs.oac.ucla.edu)

Altavia, CAID                          The Valley, CA



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: proberts at castle.ed.ac.uk (P Roberts)

Subject: Re: Costuming: hose?

Organization: Edinburgh University

Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 19:33:15 GMT


tshelans at s-cwis.unomaha.edu (SHELANSKEY) writes:

>     I find myself asked to make a cotehardie for a gentleman.  That

>part is fine, no problem.  But how does one make the hose that he

>should wear with them?  How do you make them fit properly and most

>important, WHAT should I make them from?


  Someone else, whose name escapes me, suggested using 4-way stretch cotton.

  Unless, there is some pressing reason to the contrary (e.g.  alergy)

might please don't.  Stretch cotton may make things very marginally

easier to fit but only barely.  Also, I suspect that stretch fabrics are

probably inherently more difficult to handle than normal ones.

  I have a couple of pairs of hose, one for early period and one for

14th century.  They are both made of wool, the early period hose from

relatively thick wool and the 14th century ones from a fine wool crepe.

They are both comfortable and, surprisingly, not too hot despite being

made of wool.  The thin wool especially is very cool and comfortable in

the summer.  The material you use will need to be well woven otherwise

it will pull apart under the strain.  The tight fit is achieved by using

the fabric on the bias (i.e.  the weave direction is at 45 degrees to

the vertical).  Woolen fabrics are slightly stretchy in this direction.

There is a single seam running up the back of the leg.


  Making hose is very easy, provided one takes a bit of care.  It sounds

a lot more complicated than it is.  As an example, I made myself a 14th

century cote-hardie and hose (with incorporated feet) outfit as my

second set of garb.  The first was a t-tunic, the first set of garb I

had, and only 2 months old, when I made the cote-hardie and hose.  My

sewing experience prior to that was limited to mending jeans and sewing

buttons back onto shirts.  Obviously, experienced sewers will have no

problems but, provided they take care, I think that just about anyone

should be capable of making a decent pair of hose.


  I will deal first with footless hose and, after that, with those with

the foot included.  For going with a cotehardie you will probably want

to include feet.


  First you need to make a pattern.  Take a series of measurements

around the leg.  Try, upper thigh, mid thigh, above the knee, below the

knee, mid-calf and lower calf.  You also need to know the distance

between each measuring point and from the calf down to the ankle.  take

a large piece of paper (two sheets of newspaper taped together) and fold

it in half widthwise (i.e.  along the long dimension). Mark off along

the fold the vertical distances you measured between each width

measurement and then measure at right angles to the fold half the width

of you leg at that point.  Join the dots up and cut out the pattern.

You will probably want to take the pattern straight from the lower calf

down to the ankle to allow space to get your heel through.


  You only need to do this the first time you make a pair of hose for

someone.  After that you can use the old hose for a pattern.


  The easiest way to cut out the material is to fold it diagonally and

line up the fold in the material with the fold in the pattern.  However,

if you are trying to squeeze the hose out of a small bit of material it

is probably safest to use both the material and the pattern unfolded.

Remember to allow sufficient material for the seam! Also remember that

it is better to check and double check before cutting the material!


  Fold the material in half and sew up the seam at the back.  If you

have a sewing machine then use it unless you really enjoy hand-sewing.

When you are wearing the hose nobody will be able to tell that the back

seam is machine sewn and the stitching needs to be tight, small and

even.  Turn the hose the right way out and try it on.  If it is too

baggy in any places then note where and how much, flip it wrong-side-out

again and re-sew the seam in the correct place.  Turn it right-side-out

and hem the top and bottom.  Repeat for the other leg.


  If you want to include feet in the hose then it is easy enough.  Widen

the pattern out again below the ankle and extend it far enough that it

will reach to the end of your foot, round the toes and back to the

heels.  When you sew up the back seam stop at the ankle. Put the hose

on inside out, stand on the extra flap of material and pin it around

your foot in the obvious way.  Take it off being careful not to dislodge

too many pins and sew it where it is pinned.  When you are sure it fits

you can cut off the extra material.  I also sewed leather soles onto my

hose to make them more practical and more comfortable.  If you use thin

leather then you can still wear shoes or boots over them when you are

outside if you wish.  Of course, if you're really flash you can either

make, or get someone else to make, a pair of pattens.  If you do that,

I'll be jealous.


  How you cut and finish the top of your hose depends upon what you

intend to wear them with.  For early period hose (i.e. with a

knee-length tunic) then I would just make them finish square near the

top of the thigh.  If you are going to be wearing a shorter tunic then

you may want to shape the tops of the hose a bit and make them come up

higher.  As tunics / cote-hardies got shorter, hose were extended

upwards, joined together at the back and had a cod piece added to cover

the gap at the front.  Either way you will probably want to wear them

with a pair of braes (baggy cotton or linen shorts) which you tuck into

the top of the hose.


  You can suspend the hose either from the waist band of the braes or

else, as I do, from a length of tablet weave that I tie round my waist.

I sew a little leather tab to the top of my hose, thread a bit of

leather thong (or string) through it, loop it over the belt and tie the

ends together.  I believe that saxon and viking grave finds have also

shown that some people used to pin the top of the hose to the braes,

using small broaches.


  A quick stylistic point ...  To go with the cote-hardie outfit you

might want to make the hose different colours for each leg.  This is

especially true if you are making the cote-hardie parti-coloured.

  As I said back at the beginning, it really is a lot simpler than it

looks.  My starting information was that the fabric should be cut on the

bias and that they should have a single seam up the back.


          Have fun.


                         Edward of Twynham



From: kkozmins at mtholyoke.edu (Kim C Kozminski)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Costuming: hose?

Date: 14 Jan 1995 06:24:46 GMT

Organization: Mount Holyoke College


      My apprentice came up with an ingenious method for fitting hose:  

Take an old pair of tights that you don't mind destroying, put them on,

then have a close and trusted friend wrap your leg with duct-tape.  When

your leg is wrapped as high as you care to go, cut the duct-tape tights

off (you only need to do one leg) like you would a leg-cast.  Carefully

re-tape the leg together (once it's off your leg)  and stuff it with a

soft material, like fiber-fill, old socks, the othe half of your now

useless tights-etc.  What you get is a good fit "mannequin" for hose (and

practical jokes).


      In the middle ages tailors and armourers often made wax casts of

their customers for fitting purposes, this method is of a similar ilk.

      Good Luck!


Mistress Roen (with credit to Lady Alisoun F., whose idea this was!)





From: Jill.Mason at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Jill Mason)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Costuming: hose?

Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 19:04:00 -0800


The period method of making hose used a pattern (available in several

costuming books but I was un able to put my hands on one) the hose were

seamed up the back of the leg.  In period hose were usually made of

wool or silk.  The hose I have made were based on a basic men's pants

pattern, I made them of lycra.  If you choose to make them of wool or a

woven fabric be sure to cut the patterns on a bias.  The other option

is to buy men's dancer's tights or running pants.

Hope this is of some use.  Jill Blackhorse



From: iys6lri at mvs.oac.ucla.edu (Lori Iversen)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Costuming: hose?

Date: 16 Jan 1995 18:53:44 GMT

Organization: ucla


iys6lri at mvs.oac.ucla.edu (Lori Iversen) says:

> tshelans at s-cwis.unomaha.edu (SHELANSKEY) says:


>>...how does one make the hose that he

>>should wear with them?  How do you make them fit properly and most

>>important, WHAT should I make them from?



>>Tatiana Nikonovna


Alexis here again!


I double-checked my references at home (would have posted this sooner,

but you may have heard that the sky over L.A. exploded and I spent the

last four days digging trenches and mopping my kitchen floor). The info

I gave you was [mostly] correct; here are more specifics: the Kohler

book is *A History of Costume* by Carl Kohler (publ. Dover); check

page 181 for a 14th-century hosen pattern and p. 201 for an "Italian

Renaissance" pattern.  "Holkebjor" is in fact Katherine Strand

Holkeboer, *Patterns for Theatrical Costumes*, and her pattern for

late 14th-C hosen is on p. 131.


Alexis Vladescu                        Lori Iversen

WyvernHo-ette                          (IYS6LRI at mvs.oac.ucla.edu)

Altavia, CAID                          The Valley, CA



From: rorice at bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (rosalyn rice)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Costuming: hose?

Date: 15 Jan 1995 18:35:44 GMT

Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington


>The period method of making hose used a pattern (available in several

>costuming books but I was un able to put my hands on one) the hose were

>seamed up the back of the leg.  In period hose were usually made of

>wool or silk.  The hose I have made were based on a basic men's pants

>pattern, I made them of lycra.  If you choose to make them of wool or a

>woven fabric be sure to cut the patterns on a bias. The other option

>is to buy men's dancer's tights or running pants.


      The Period fabric for hose which I am aware of is wool flannel cut

on the bias. Hose were basically long stockings tied to either the braes

or the doublet with points until about 1400 when the rising hemlines of the

doublet required joined hose.


      Stretch fabrics (especially shiny ones) don't look quite right.

Dance tights are a conspiracy to bring all the woes and hassles of

panty hose that women endure to men. They run. They ride up or down

depending on what you don't want them to do at the time. They're hot in

summer and cold in winter. They're too tight or too loose where you

don't want them to be. Bah!





From: brand at mcmi.com (Blair Wettlaufer)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Costuming: hose?

Date: Sun, 15 Jan 95 19:28:03 EST

Organization: Material Culture Management Inc.


Greetings to all on the rialto interested in hose ..

Well, from my research for hose from the 14th c., they were made out of

the stretchiest materials they had then (which wasn't much), which were a

type of wool called scarlach, or leather.  They could be tied by points

to the chemise/underdoublet, or attached to a breech-belt that held up

the breeches, either by straps or points.

There are several good patterns, but some of them are akward for the

novice sewer because they were made of remainders, and the "pattern could

consist of several pieces.  The simplest pattern I have seen that works

is in A History of Costume by Hans Kohler.


Brand Thorwaldsen



From: denique'. at prostar.com (Denique' )

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Costuming: hose?

Date: 15 Jan 95 21:52:53 PST


ahhhhh RUSSIAN! I don't know too many words, my son is taking it in high

school, but I DO recognize that one!


anyway...contact raiments they have alot of patterns and I think even the

ones for the hose of which yu speak...


ah, yes, in looking at the catalogue there are several patterns that may be

of assistance...on p-4&p-5....


their fax number is(818) 791-9434 (24hours)

their phone # is   (818) 797-2723 (tuesday thru thursday 10am-4pm)


I have always been more than pleased with their service, and they are VERY

helpful, and have no problem offering suggestions!  good luck!



From: mugjf at uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Gwyndlyn J Ferguson)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Costuming: hose?

Date: 19 Jan 1995 05:52:54 GMT

Organization: Educational Computing Network


Way back at the beginning of this thread the question was how to go about

making hose for a man's cotehardie, correct?


      While I have not used the Kohler pattern (it looks intimidating

to me), I have used the Holkeboer pattern which has been rather

successful when made up in t-shirt knit.  However, depending on the desired

level of authenticity, my

quick and dirty men's hose are made from a commercial stirrup pants

pattern in an appropriate size.  I have an advantage, as my lord and I

are of a size, and I get to use his hose mundanely as leggings :)  I made

him a pair for Pennsic and he wore them every day ( and they still live).

      I have yet to try making authentic bias cut hose, but the

patterns already mentioned as well as those in the Medieval Miscellanea

patterns should be easy enough to use.

      Good luck, Cotehardies are my favorite!


Lady Gwyndlyn Caer Vyrddin


Gwyn Ferguson

Western Illinois University

mugjf at bgu.edu



From: UDSD073 at DSIBM.OKLADOT.STATE.OK.US (Mike Andrews)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Costuming: hose?

Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 13:50

Organization: The University of Oklahoma (USA)


Jill.Mason at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Jill Mason) writes:

>The period method of making hose used a pattern (available in several

>costuming books but I was un able to put my hands on one) the hose were

>seamed up the back of the leg.  In period hose were usually made of

>wool or silk.  The hose I have made were based on a basic men's pants

>pattern, I made them of lycra.  If you choose to make them of wool or a

>woven fabric be sure to cut the patterns on a bias. The other option

>is to buy men's dancer's tights or running pants.

>Hope this is of some use.  Jill Blackhorse


One of our local costumers (thanks, CMdiC!) got a knitting

machine really cheap at a garage sale, and has used this to

turn out very nice tights, stockings, etc., for various of

us in Namron. It is a nice alternative to buying commercial

fabric and fighting the patterns, and to hand-knitting a

pair of tights, which would exhaust _my_ patience really fast.


Yes, some knitting machines did exist in-period.


udsd007 at ibm.okladot.state.ok.us    (

Michael Fenwick of Fotheringhay, O.L. (Mike Andrews) Namron, Ansteorra



From: mugjf at uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Gwyndlyn J Ferguson)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: tights for men in ren. outfits

Date: 26 Apr 1995 13:51:26 GMT

Organization: Educational Computing Network


: >I am trying to put together some sort of ren. (1480 ish) German outfit

: >and am trying to figure out what to do about the tights.  As of yet I

: >have not made a coat hardee (spelling?, I also don't know what one looks

: >like) but I am trying to figure out the logistics of tights.

: >Just what sort of tights are people wearing? I was thinking of making my

: >own with lycra in green/yellow (period fabrics; yea sure!; but it should

: >look good).  But for now I am trying to figure out what to wear.  As much

: >as I love to flirt I don't want to be to overt about it.


Ok, the quick and dirty (funny, I seem to have a lot of quick and dirty

ideas...) method to men's tights which do not look like lycra (yuck!)

only works for medium to small men.  Buy the inexpensive women's stirrup

pants which are ever so popular these days.  Last time I checked they

were about $6 at the local Wal-Mart.  They have a bit of cotton content,

so they aren't shiny, they tend to hold up well, and you can generally

get men who otherwise wouldn't come near tights to wear them.  They also

aren't dangerously opaque, which is what you get by putting women's

tights on men.  However, the suggestion for Danskin tights is a good one,

if you can find them in men's sizes, and if you can find them.  I went

with the pants because I couldn't find Danskins for too long, now I

prefer the pants.



*Gwyn Ferguson***Western Illinois University

*SCA: Lady Gwyndlyn Caer Vyrddin***Lochmorrow-Midrealm

*Internet: mugjf at bgu.edu



From: data at eden.rutgers.edu (Rosemary Goodheart)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: tights for men in ren. outfits

Date: 26 Apr 1995 16:55:03 -0400

Organization: Rutgers University


As far as tights go, I would suggest buying some woman's leggings that are

_not_ made out of shiney spandex... they make them out of cotton, or

something.. at any rate, they do make non-shiney leggings. They are relatively

inexpensive (usually under $10)  and can be found at most women's clothing

stores.  This will only work, though, if you are wearing boots, or some other

kind of shoe that will cover your foot all the way up to your ankle, so

people won't see that you are wearing leggings instead of tights.


Otherwise, you could just wear generic women's opaque tights.  They work well,

but are much thinnet than leggings.  One book I have on Elizabethan costuming

suggests buying leggings that are too large, and then gartering them with

a ribbon, in order to look more period.


Good luck!




Rosemary Goodheart                                       YYY     YYY

data at eden.rutgers.edu                                     | |YYYYY| |

                             at )--->----;-----              |_|__n__|_|


From: ESRLJHD at MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (John Doing)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: tights for men in ren. outfits

Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 14:12

Organization: University of California, Los Angeles


mugjf at uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Gwyndlyn J Ferguson) writes:


The original poster wrote asking for ideas for 15th Century tights.


Gwyndlyn Ferguson wrote explaing how to use danskin stretch pants.


And below I add my two pence worth.


Another quick and dirty tights for men can be made sweat pants. By

restitching the inseam to a tighter fit these will approximate

tights. Parti colored can be made from two different sweats and

then sewing them together, once again restitching the inseam.


As I say this is quick and dirty but will give good fairly good



Siohn ap Govannan

Barony of Altavia

Kingdom of Caid



From: ejpiii at delphi.com

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: tights for men in ren. outfits

Date: Fri, 28 Apr 95 21:31:13 -0500


Evan L. Herring <eherring at mindspring.com> writes:

>>I am trying to put together some sort of ren. (1480 ish) German outfit

>>and am trying to figure out what to do about the tights.

I used to dance for a living, and no I won't tell you how long ago, but

any dance store will either have several catalogs you can order from or will

actually have the tights in stock. They should also have access to many more

fabrics than just lycra.

I've seen pure cotton or wool tights in dance catalogs in the last 10 years.

One thing, please don't buy womens tights, they are made for people whose basic

shape is very much different than yours.... Nuff said? I have also seen parti-

colored and harlequin tights in mainstream dance catalogs.

SO head on into your nearest dance studio and while appreciating the healthy

dancers sure to be lurking nearby, order what you need.




From: sewinwench at aol.com (SewinWench)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: tights for men in ren. outfits

Date: 3 May 1995 21:27:59 -0400


I am a professional costumer and make tights all the time for shows.  I

sell beautiful cable-knit cotton tights (these are thick and appropriate

for winter) for 60.00.  Odd sizes are not a problem.  


E-mail if interested.


Sarah Seamstitcher

The Sewing Wench



From: amlsmith at morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew ML Smith)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: tights and stuff

Date: 15 May 1995 04:13:47 GMT

Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland


graham yeates <gyeates at chat.carleton.ca> wrote:

>SewinWench (sewinwench at aol.com) wrote:

>> Tightly knitted wool I would assume.  At least, that's what they taught in

>> Costume History.

>> Sara

>> The Sewing Wench


>I have also heard that bias cut fabric works well (If you have alot of

>patience ....  and fittings!  :-)  )  Raffe in Ard Creag (Ealdormere)


Greetings, Lady Helen, and those here assembled... Sebastian can't

hush-up tonight..


The easiest way to get a good pattern for the bias cut hosen is to have

the (un) suspecting victim,, errr voluenteer, stand on a chair while a

more than willing assistant draws a grid on one leg. Quarter the leg,

top to bottom (a line on the outside, inside, front and back of the leg)

and section the leg horizonatlly at the following:




      3" up from ankle

      widest part of lower leg

      below knee

      at knee

      above knee

      3" above "above knee"

      widest of thigh


      below, on and above crotch



Then measure _every_line_segment_.

This will take time, but it will provide an exact replica of the leg.

Then assume that the fabric will be wrapped around the leg, with the

seam in the back of the leg... 1/2" allowances on the seam, BTW.


It works well with two people, but you can do it for yourself, ... in a





Andrew Smith                          Pan Sebastian Goral

Mechanical Engineer                    Shire of Ar n-Eilean-ne

Memorial University of Newfoundland       East Kingdom

amlsmith at plato.ucs.mun.ca



From: sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: tights and stuff

Date: 15 May 1995 15:58:24 GMT

Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS


      When I make bias-cut hosen, I usually play Pin the Fabric on

the Unsuspecting Lord.  In other words, since the reason you use the bias

is to take advantage of the stretch, you actually manipulate the fabric

on the leg, stretching and pinning as you go, until you get a nice, tight

fit. (If you do separate feet on your hosen, just do the pinning to

the ankle).   Every fabric has a different bias stretch, so in my mind it's

impossible to get a pattern that will fit every single time, tho' if you

don't mind slightly looser fitting hosen, you should be OK with drafting

a pattern from what emerges from the pinning.  But don't sew until you

try it on!

      Now, if you don't mind being un-period, I've seen a very nice cotton

with just a bit of lycra available.  Looks much better than either

"tights fabric" or knits.  But personally I LOVE the look of bias cut

hosen with their little authentic bags here and there. Makes you look

like the pictures!




Canton of Eoforwic

sclark at epas.utoronto.ca



From: gileshill at aol.com (Gileshill)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Costume Patterns Wanted

Date: 16 Oct 1995 06:16:32 -0400


liversen at physiology.medsch.ucla.edu (Lori Iversen) writes:

>A gentle caveat:  I made a pair of pluderhosen from a pattern in

>Ms. Arnold's book (Nils Sturtevant?); they were ravishing, and

>(preen, preen) the only *proper* pair of pluderhosen I've ever

>seen (poofy legs, really tight butt)...but they took 18 machine

>needles and much cursing to get through, because the volume of

>fabric required for proper poofing is overwhelming. If you

>decide to attempt any of the pieces from PoF, go into it armed

>with lots of patience and lots of spare parts for your machine.


>-- Alexis


The importance of having the right tools cannot be overstated.  when I

construct a pair of paned trunkhose, I am often sewing through at least a

solid half inch of velvet, burlap, cording, interfacing, and so on.  There

is simply no way that either my little Singer or Louise's Riccar could get

through that much stuff.  The industrial, however, doesn't even blink.

The only other alternative would be handsewing.  Since I don't have from

dawn till dusk six days a week to work on my clothes, the only alternative

was to get a bigger f**king hammer.





Organization: University of Maine System

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 12:01:21 EST

From: <CS23001 at MAINE.MAINE.EDU>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Men's Hoisery idea


I have slowly been working on Renaissance costuming for myself

and my husband.  I recently picked up two pairs of those new

women's over-the-knee socks which are in fashion this year.

Since they are designed to go over the knee, I am hoping they

will prove to be an appropriate and inexpensive stocking which

my husband can wear under his slops ("medieval knickers").


I chose a simple knit pattern in off-white and gray colors.

I thought that if they tend to roll down a bit, well, that's what

those leg ties/garters were for anyways.

Knit stockings of silk were presented to Queen Elizabeth, the exact

year escapes me at the moment, so thus a knit stocking might be



My question is, how appropriate is this department store fashion

find to how hoisery was *really* worn by men and women in the

Renaissance (I am thinking 1550-1600's).  I selected a high

wool content stocking rather than the thinner nylon type.


I thought this might be a good compromise as I work towards

nicer garb.  I have not tried any resources such as hiking

socks.  I thought the stockings would be more comfortable

beneath pants than tights.


Any input?


In Service,

   "Lady Bryn"/Lisa Tyson



From: jocelynp at cts.com (Jocelyn Plazewska)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Tights for a big guy?

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 17:17:36 GMT

Organization: CTS Network Services


kms3 at ix.netcom.com(Kellene Stets ) wrote:

> daveinblck at aol.com (DaveInBlck) writes:

>>Where can a guy who is 6' tall and weighs about 210 lbs. (not me, but a

>>friend) get reasonable tights?  Chivalry Sports has some, but they cost

>>over $50, much more than he wants to spend.


Try going to a big woman's store. I you can stand the thought of

wearing a woman's garb. The better stores have a decent selection of

woolen and cotton tights. Unless of course you live on Southern



Katarzyna Plazewska



From: bknight at dorsai.org (Dwayne Herron)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Tights for a big guy?

Date: 4 Apr 1996 19:33:56 -0500

Organization: The Dorsai Embassy, Inc.


You can contact Justinian the Sluggard (Edward Ganz) at The Sable Slug,

392 Jervis Ave., Copiague, NY, 11726  (518-842-3367).  He makes tights

and has been Royal Tightsmaker for several Kings.  If he can fit me, he

can fit anybody.


Peace, Love, and Chocolate Chip Cookies,

Diablu, Black Knight of the East



From: gileshill at aol.com (Gileshill)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Tights for a big guy?

Date: 29 Mar 1996 19:59:22 -0500


kms3 at ix.netcom.com(Kellene Stets ) writes:

>He can make them, or he can buy running tights. Fits well, doesn't get

>runs, machine washable, comes in many colors and sizes, can get

>different lengths to go with whatever footwear you've got. Sure they

>are shiny, and an unnatural fiber. But they work.


Well, making them gets my vote.  I wrote an article for Ars Caidis some

years ago on how to make your own hose, and if I can find it, I'll be

happy to either post it here or mail you a copy. (Basically, you take a

pattern for sweat pants, use cotton T-shirt knit (if you have a normal

income) or silk knit (if you have more money than sense) or bias-cut woven

wool (if you're Perioder-Than-Thou).  Make the pants (either with or

without feet) and then take material out of the inseam until they fit

snugly.  You may want to leave a gap in the front crotch seam to use as a

fly;  it can be laced/buttoned/tied close if you aren't wearing breeches.


I'm not aware of any surviving hose (and by "hose" I mean "constructed

garment that starts at the toes, fits [more or less] snugly up the legs

and ends at the waist") that we can check for patterning or construction

techniques.  If anyone is, I'd be grateful for the information.





From: Gordon Bulmer <bulmerg at sos.pwgsc.ca>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Tights for a big guy?

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 13:18:30 -0800

Organization: PWGSC / TPSGC


DaveInBlck wrote:

> Where can a guy who is 6' tall and weighs about 210 lbs. (not me, but a

> friend) get reasonable tights?  Chivalry Sports has some, but they cost

> over $50, much more than he wants to spend.


Well I found my best pair of tights for about $26, from International

Male (Mail order clothing, they have a site on the web and you can order

a catalogue) they have a full line of sports and active wear and the

cotton/lycra workout tights (no feet) are the best thing I have ever

found.  I am 6-1 190 lbs and regular dance tights just did not do the




James the Mercer

      MKA Gordon Bulmer

e-mail address = gordon.bulmer at hqspsd1.ssc.ssc-asc.x400.gc.ca




From: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Tights for a big guy?

Date: 28 Mar 1996 22:03:17 -0500

Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS


My husband about fits the description you gave.  Before an event a few weeks

ago, he could not find his black tights (bought from a place that supplies

dancers, BTW).  I had recently bought a pair of leggings that were plenty

long (a truly amazing find for a woman with a 34" inseam), but were actually

a bit big on me.  "Here", I said, "try these".  To make a long story short,

he's swiped them!  They're cotton, and actually fit more like period tights

than do the nylon variety (they have just a smidgen of lycra).  These

are footless, but you could get the stirrup variety (which I've seen in

period illuminations, BTW).


Or, if you can't find any that fit the description, find a friend with

a serger and get stretch leggings custom made (hey, you can even counterchange

'em!).  I find that the stretch cotton legging materials currently available

are the next best thing to getting bias-cut hosen custom made).  This should

not be a difficult project for anyone with a serger.



Nicolaa de Bracton

sclark at epas.utoronto.ca



From: cclark at vicon.net (C. Clark)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Making hose (was Tights for a big guy)

Date: 29 Mar 1996 12:07:28 GMT

Organization: EMI Communications


daveinblck at aol.com says...

>Where can a guy who is 6' tall and weighs about 210 lbs. (not me, but a

>friend) get reasonable tights?  Chivalry Sports has some, but they cost

>over $50, much more than he wants to spend.

Does he have a lady or other friend who would be willing to pin knit or

bias-cut fabric onto his legs? Real hose can be made without too very

much trouble, something like this:


Use a moderately light-weight and comfortable fabric that will hold up to

a good deal of wear. Take approximate measurements before cutting, cut it

too large, on the bias (if woven), and pin it on and adjust as needed.

The fabric can wrap around the front of the leg and pin at the back. Be

sure to use safety pins--they're a lot more practical when you actually

want to move around in something to see how it fits. Also, remember to

leave the ankle loose enough that it can be pulled off over the heel.

Mark the positions of the safety pins by sticking in a straight pin (or a

small piece of contrasting thread) just to the outside of each pin, one

to each side of the seam. Then unpin it, turn it inside out, and stitch

it up (zig-zag stitch) just to the inside of the marking pins or threads.

Remember, it will have been pinned on right side out but with the seams

on the outside, and you want the seams to end up on the inside.


If you want full feet, cut it a bit wide around the heel. Once the leg is

fitted, start from the stitching at the point of the heel and cut

diagonally upwards from there far enough that the part that goes over the

foot can turn forwards without wrinkling too much over the top of the

instep. Fit a triangle of cloth into each side of the foot to fill in the

gap in front of the heel. Then trace the soles of the feet, cut them out,

and fit them on. Use safety pins throughout the process, and adjust them

for each step in making the feet. The side of the foot looks something

like this:  !    !

            !   /

            !   !

          _/    !

        _/   /\ \

     __/    /  \ !



I hope this is all clear enough to be useful.


Henry of Maldon/Alex Clark  cclark at vicon.net



From: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Tights for a big guy?

Date: 31 Mar 1996 21:27:33 -0500

Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS


Giles said,

>I'm not aware of any surviving hose (and by "hose" I mean "constructed

>garment that starts at the toes, fits [more or less] snugly up the legs

>and ends at the waist") that we can check for patterning or construction

>techniques.  If anyone is, I'd be grateful for the information.


I have in front of me an article from _Textile History_ 18 (1987) 175-86,

by Margareta Nockert, entitled "The Bocksten Man's Costume".  The Bocksten

Man was found in a Danish bog,his clothing more or less intact.  He

was wearing hosen with feet, and the author mentiones that a similar

set were found in another grave dating from 1250.  The Bocksten man

seems to be late 13th-early 14th century.  There is quite a good narrative

about the development of hosen, as well as diagrams of the actual patterning

from the hosen in the find.  These are early examples, so they do not go

all the way to the waist, but rather were fastened to a belt or cloth strip

worn around the waist.  Contemporary illuminations show this type of hosen

being worn with "braes" or a loincloth underneath.


I'd love to see if similar things exist for later periods, when the hosen

began to resemble what we would call pants more....anyone know of anything?



Nicolaa de Bracton

sclark at epas.utoronto.ca



From: moondrgn at bga.com (Chris and Elisabeth Zakes)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Tights for a big guy?

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 06:43:02 GMT

Organization: Real/Time Communications Internet customer posting


sirjon at netcom.com (John Edgerton) wrote:


>Has anyone trying taking in a pair of sweatpants so that they fit more

>like hose?  If you buy two pair of diferent colors you could get two pair

>of parti color.  I have not done this, but have heard it can be done.  

>Does anyone have any suggestions on how to do it?


>Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf, West, Mists, Esfenn

>sirjon at netcom.com


Yes, that's precisely the technique I use.

Put the pants on inside-out, carefully pin the inseam so it form-fits

your leg, then sew it up. I usually run a line of straight stitches,

then go back over it with a zigzag stitch. Cut off the excess and

you're done.

I attach a "stirrup" at the bottom of mine, so they'll look more like

hose with my low Elizabethan shoes. if you're wearing boots, that's

not a problem.

I've never done the parti-colored variation, but it ought to work.


      -Tivar Moondragon

C and E Zakes

Tivar Moondragon (Patience and Persistence)

and Aethelyan of Moondragon (Decadence is its own reward)

moondrgn at bga.com



From: GREEDER at delphi.com

To: ansteorra at eden.com

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996

Subject: Re: garb question


I see that you have already gotten several replies to your query.

Without reading them, I would like to tell you how I made a pair of 'tights'.

It was easy, but they weren't 100% athentic.  If that's what you want then

you won't like mine.  But if you want somthing sevicable....

I got a pair of cheap sweats at Walmart.  Get them one size smaller that you

normaly wear.  I got size M instead of L.  This will give the necessary tight

fit arround the waist and ass.  Put them on inside out and pin up the leg

seam tight to your leg.  You should be taking in about two inches of fabric.

Carefully take them off and sew up a new leg seam allong the pins.  Turn them

right side out, and wear.  I didn't even trim the extra fabric off the legs.

It works and looks great.  Other suggestions that I have been given were

to get a XXL pair of womens strech pants.  Passed on that idea, too much




From: Andrew Lowry <alowry at wchat.on.ca>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Men's Garters - holding your hosen!

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 22:54:50 -0400


Magnus Mckinnley wrote:

> I am seeking any good sources about the use of garters at the knee to hold

> up mens hosen/tights.  I have seen numerous paintings which

> include such, but how were they tied up?  


I personally find them of little practical use except when I roll my

braes (hose) down on hot days.


>Did they use buckles?




> Did they tie knots?

> Where they mostly woven strips - or leather?


I use leather with pewter buckles


  Any help would be

> appreciated.


I will forward this post to a Laurel friend who makes and sells 14

th century garters (That is where I bought mine) but isn't on the

Rialto. She can probably answer your questions. Another Laurel

friend (14 th century research and costume) wears the same garters

so I figure that they are correct.


Richard Larmer




From: LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.EDU

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Lederhosen (was: Leather trousers for fencing)

Date: 16 Aug 1996 11:37:38 -0400


<Pip Sullivan<dervish at ogre.demon.co.uk>>

>I plan on making a pair of leather trousers (to conform to the SCA

>rules on 'resistant' clothing for fencing). Does anyone have any info

>on patterns, where the seams should be (side or back of the leg?),

>fastenings at the front, etc.?


Personally, I think you'd be better with the *really* high topped

boots, but it's a personal decision :)  While I suspect you have already

looked at the "Footwear of the Middle Ages" (since you have let me know

that you actually use it), I might suggest that you take a look at

both versions of the Footed Hose, and the Thigh High Fold-Over Boot

(listed in this edition under Middle Ages (c1200-1250) Shoe designs.

(There are some changes in the later version, which has not yet gone

up on that site, to both of these, but the meat of the them is about the

same.  Let me know and I'll send you any pertinant changes).


Most Hosen will be seamed up the back and tie with points to your

doublet/pourpoint/etc...  this remains fairly standard until at least

the end of the Elizabethan Era, although the details of overall design



I. Marc Carlson, Reference Technician   |Sometimes known as:      

McFarlin Library, University of Tulsa   | Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn

2933 E. 6th St., Tulsa, OK  74104-3123  | University of Northkeep

LIB_IMC at CENTUM.UTULSA.EDU (918) 631-3794| Northkeepshire, Ansteorra



From: robnbrwn at gnn.com (Robin Brown)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Newbie Costuming question

Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 12:49:39


In article <5ashh8$etf at herald.concentric.net> greeder wrote:

>A short cut to getting leggings is to use women's strech pants.

>Or get a cheap pair of sweatpants one size too small. THen

>put them on inside out and take in the side seam. Turn them

>right side out and they will fit with the proper snugness.


Better yet "leggings".  The cotton/poly/lycra fits like tights, is much

thicker (and warmer) comes in lots o' nifty colors, and if you are a BIG guy,

you can find Danskins for Women up to 4X, which should fit most.  





Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:45:02 +0100

From: Ninni M Pettersson <vidumavi at swipnet.se>

To: SCA Arts and Science List <SCA-ARTS at UKANS.EDU>

Subject: Looking for book about constructing a doublet


At a workshop on Elizabethan dress at a recent event here in Nordmark, a

friend of mine was recommended to try and get hold of this book:


_Drafting and Construction a simple Doublet and Trunkhose of the Spanish

Renaissance_ by R. W. Trump, published by Alfarhaugr Publ. Society, Eugene,

Oregon, 1991.


Since he hasn't access to the Internet I've promised to help him find it.

So now I wonder: Can anyone on this list perhaps give me any helpful hints

on how to set about getting hold of this book from Sweden? I've gathered

(from a discussion on the Rialto) that Alfarhaugr is a small-time

SCA-enterprise. They don't seem to have a web-site, and now I'm at loss to

know how to proceed in my search.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.


Adeliz de Hauerford

Holmrike, Nordmark, Drachenwald



Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 13:42:44 EDT

From: epinegar at juno.com

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Looking for book about constructing a doublet


On Tue, 27 May 1997 18:45:02 +0100 Ninni M Pettersson <vidumavi at swipnet.se> writes:

>At a workshop on Elizabethan dress at a recent event here in Nordmark, a

>friend of mine was recommended to try and get hold of this book:


>_Drafting and Construction a simple Doublet and Trunkhose of the Spanish

>Renaissance_ by R. W. Trump, published by Alfarhaugr Publ. Society, Eugene,

>Oregon, 1991.


R.W. Trump, or master Rober Sartor van Pays-Bas wrote several books, and

I believe Alban stocks them all in his bookstall.  This is a WONDERFUL






Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:43:32 -0700

From: Brett and Karen Williams <brettwi at ix.netcom.com>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Looking for book about constructing a doublet


Ninni M Pettersson wrote, snipped for brevity:

> _Drafting and Construction a simple Doublet and Trunkhose of the Spanish

> Renaissance_ by R. W. Trump, published by Alfarhaugr Publ. Society, Eugene,

> Oregon, 1991.


My lady Adeliz:


Point your web browser to:




And there you'll find an advert for a shop here in California that

usually has the current version of this book in stock, which was first

issued in 1988-- the volume has been revised and expanded. Though I'm

sure it might be expensive, all things considered, faxing in an

authorization and a credit card number (as Americans are wont to do with

HMSO's office in London), might be an easy way to obtain this book.  By

the way, it is ISBN 0-9623719-2-0, according to the back cover of mine

own copy.


I can also recommend Master Robert's companion volumes: A Simple Gown of

the Renaissance (the overcoat, or "Roman gown", based on Alcega, as is

the first book), and the somewhat vitriolic "The Annotated Arnold",

which was the first Trump volume Janet Anderson of AlterYears read. I'd

know-- it was mine. ;)



(The usual disclaimers apply-- I'm not connected with

Raiments/AlterYears other than being a very satisfied customer who lives

within very dangerous driving distance...)



From: Roo <remains at sjm.infi.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period Hose... for ladies (?)

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:37:52 -0700


Both Amazon Drygoods and AlterYears sell cotton thigh-high stockings.

They need garters or garter-belts to hold them up, though. They might

carry the kind that have elastic in the top.


I beleive Jas. Townsend and Son (a black powder/civil war periods

merchant) has some of the cotton variety that has elastic in the top.

They have a webpage, but I don't have the address anywhere.


Alternatively, buy a couple of pairs of nice thick cotton or wool

tights, the kind that have a heavier knit at the top of the leg where it

meets the "panty" to stop runs,  and some of that pretty stretch lace

(enough to go comfortably but tightly around each leg above the knee

without cutting off circulation to your foot). Cut the tights off just

at the "panty" , leaving some of the heavier knitted part at the top of

the new stocking. (If you don't have tights with a 'run-stop' heavier

knit at the top of the legs, you will want to borrow a serger from

someone if you can, and serge the edges after you cut them.)


Cut the stretch lace to size, and solidly sew (you can do this by hand)

the ends to make two elastic garters. I reccommend these, rather than

the hard round elastic ones, because they tend to stay up a little

better, and don't cut off the circulation as much. Besides which, you

can custom fit them.


Hope this helps!


A final note that won't fit smoothly anywhere else in this message:

Danskin makes heavy run-resistant dance tights, but only in synthetic

fibers. You can actually fairly safely cut these to make stockings

withou needing to hem them, as the whole body of the tights is made in

the heavy double-knit that some regular tights only use for a run-stop

strip at the top of each leg. These tend to be expensive, but the

stockings made with them will last for some time.





From: Gwen Morse <goldmoon at geocities.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period Hose... for ladies (?) [SCA]

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 05:28:23 -0400


> Greetings from Vanora!


>  Anyone know where I can find some of those cute lil' thigh-high, opaque

> tights to wear with my garb? They use to be quite popular, mundanely, in

> the jr. dept. about 3 years ago, but no one sells them now. Any ideas

> that won't take too long or cost more than about $15. (Yes, I would make

> some, but I'm in the middle of a waiting-period to get into the military

> and have stored-away my sewing supplies, indefinetly).


Well, they're not 'period', but, you can find thigh-high stockings at

any 'Victoria's Secret' store, or, in one of their catalogues. I believe

they're less than $10 a pair.


There are two basic types: one with a 'sexy' lace border along the top,

and one with a plain border. Both types have 'grip top' bands to keep

them up (works well - even when club dancing!!!). They're also fairly

sturdy - not 'snagging' or 'running' until after being worn several

times (again, in an active club/dancing situation) - running through the

woods may vary wearing milage :). You will need to check and see if they

come in opaque black or not (I know they have sheer black).


'Frederick's Of Hollywood' (yes, we have alot of lingerie shops in local

malls ;) ) has their own line of stockings as well, and they tend to

have a bit more variety as far as 'unusual' findings.


Gwen Morse



From: "Lila Bednar" <LBednar at worldnet.att.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Tights

Date: 9 Nov 1997 17:58:40 GMT


Shawn Johnson <shawnjoh at uoguelph.ca> wrote

> Check out your local dance stores ... they should have a wide range of

> colours.  If you're into particoloured tight ... buy three pair, each a

> different colour ... split each and re-sew.


> -Robyn Whystler


PMFJI, but tights or leggings are *exceptionally* easy to sew (you can use

a plain zigzag stitch...don't need anything fancy), and with the plethora

of four-way stretch materials available, finding something shouldn't be

difficult.  The current THREADS magazine has a good article on this

subject, which includes how to draft the pattern to your measurements and

sources for materials (if you can't find them locally).


I've made them for myself (for knocking around the house) and for my SO for

both SCA and RenFaires, and they look/wear at least as well as anything he

bought from various merchants in the past.....



Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 02:56:09 -0500

From: Melanie Wilson <MelanieWilson at compuserve.com>

To: "INTERNET:sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>

Subject: Cods


I think you need full leg hose, I have a pattern on



along with single leg hose and short hose (for ladies)


feel free to use it, it is for the Battle of Boswoth period ie end of 15th

C. The hose is sewn at the back and open at the front at sort of fly flap


You need to do the Cod in 2 pieces so you get a curved effect over the bump

bit (slight blush!)


Norris isn't too good I've heard,(I don't have it though) I try to go for

all primary sources these days, it saves loads of remakes but it depends

how accurate you need/want to be./ Janet Arnold starts 1560 and is very

good, but maybe too late.


You need to be fairly specific on the date as 1485 saw a big change in

clothing style and your class, nationality as well as date would influence

what is correct-assuming it matters to you :)





[The survey in this next message was inspired by the original idea and

effort of Gwen Nowick of Black Swan Designs (who did her own survey) - ed]


From: Matt Larsen <matt at ddi.com>

To: sca-crosston at netcom.com

Subject: Colors for Hose

Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:03:52 -0800 (PST)


A few weeks ago I was at a meeting of the Company of St. George, and I

roped several people there into helping me work on a question I had.

They asked me to post the results when I was done, and I figured there

might be some other people in Crosston who would be interested, too.

So here it is!


The question was basically "what colors did they make hose in, and what

colors were most popular?"  What I did (with help from the others in

the Company of St. George :-), was to look through a bunch of art

books, counting up the number of hose of any given color. To some

extent, the colors are somewhat arbitrary ("Hmmm... is that yellow, or

light brown...?"), but here's the rough totals I got:



red             124

black           47

blue            35

green           30

white           39

parti-colored   30

yellow          16

grey            22

brown           23


The surprising thing (and therefore interesting!) for me was that red

was so prevalent.  The other colors are close enough to the same

numbers that I think one can say they are more or less equally



So, there it is.  Any thoughts?  Anyone want to dispute anything?


Oh, one more thing.  I'm mostly interested in the 15th c., and in this

instance I was particularly interested in Northern Europe. So I

pretty much ignored sources after about 1520 and before about 1350,

and I didn't look in books that covered mostly Italy, Spain, etc.,

though I did count things from those places that came up in the books

I did look at.  I'd be interested to see if a survey of Italian books

would show a different distribution.




p.s. If anyone is interested in more details, here's how the numbers

break down by what book they were found in:


Manuscript Painting at the Court of France

red             5

blue            2

parti-colored   1

grey            2

yellow          5


Sforza Hours

red             9

blue            3

yellow          6

green           4

parti-colored   1

brown           1


Lutrell Psalter

black           2

brown           11

red             7

blue            6

green           1

grey            1


King Rene's Book of the Tourney (excerpts)

red             6

yellow          1

green           1


The Bedford Hours

red             14

black           10

blue            7

parti-colored   1

green           4

grey            9

white           14


German Paintings of the 15th c.

brown           3

green           5

red             25

blue            2

black           6

grey            3


Museum of Ancient Art, Brussles

black           5

parti-colored   3

red             3

white           1


Northern Renaissance Art

parti-colored   2

black           5

white           4

red             5

grey            1


Early Flemish Painting

red             15

black           11

parti-colored   2

blue            6

white           3

green           3

grey            5

brown           6

yellow          1


Giotto to Durer: Early Renaissance Painting in the National Gallery

red             20

black           8

white           10

brown           2

parti-colored   3

grey            1

blue            4

yellow          1

green           1


Other (some calendars and a few books that had one or two plates)

green           11

red             17

blue            5

white           7

parti-colored   17

yellow          2



Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:26:15 -0500

From: Steven Proctor <sproctor at snet.net>

Subject: Re: SL -- Colors for Hose


OK, this caught me in a neurotic moment, and I needed to know, so I went into

the workshop and did some quick counting. Bear in mind that my source list

is much more restricted to the 1380-1420 range.


Blue            46

Red            68

Black         46

Brown        28

Green         31

Yellow       13

parti-colored    17

Beige          5

White          21

Purple         4

Gold            3 (This has to be an artistic conceit. They were gilded!)

Tawny       12

Fuscia         16

Grey            16


Again, red on top, but not by nearly so much. I wonder if it was a slightly

later phenomenon? Anyway, I thought it interesting, more so than anything on



I don't have a nifty breakdown, but my sources are as follows.


The Visconti Hours

The Belles Heures

The Tres Riche Heures

The Rohan Hours

La Livre de La Chasse

The Golden Age of French Manuscript Painting

Painted Prayers


I used the data supplied for the Lutrell Psalter and the Manuscript Painting

at the Court of France, it was just easier.


Morgan de Villarquemada



Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 03:01:15 -0500

From: Melanie Wilson <MelanieWilson at compuserve.com>

To: LIST SCA arts <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>

Subject: Black Tunic


Please , not wishing to be unkind but......sweat pants or tights are no way

near period (any excpet modern). If you are going to go out & buy something

why not buy something nearer the mark ? Buy some wool fabric. I'm assuming

you are male?


For simplicity make trousers, OK for early periods. You can cut 2 pieces by

basing it on a swear pant you already have, although this pattern is not

correct for the period it will look better than modern alternative shop

boughts. If you wish to be more acurate. Cut three pieces these will be



1 & 2 are the same, the length is 4 inches above  your waist to just above

your foot plus a bit. the width is centre of your waist to centre of you

back (check this is greater than thigh circumference incase your legs are

bigger than your waist.


3 is the bum piece. length is from  4 inches above you waist to the same

height on your back measured between your legs, allow room to move easily.


Sew the legs into tubes leaving enought to sew the bum bit in.


If you want to do later more correctly then you move onto firstly single

leg hose, then full hose. Patterns on :




Single leg hose(like a stocking ) is worn with braies(shorts) to the

pattern of the 3 part trouses but to just below knee length only, tuck into

top of hose.


Single leg hose changed to full (similar to tights but with a flap at the

front for toilet use)around the 14th/15th C but there is plenty of overlap,

rather than a sudden swap.


Single leg is easier to make & wear than full.


To keep these items from falling down,


Trousers--tie at waist with a belt (do not use elastic)


Single leg hose, fit straps to the top front of the hose which are then

tied to a belt (under your tunic)


Full hose- ties to your jacket.


I've tried to keep this simple rather than go on about the technicalities

but these are all simple period wear which will look better than tights or

sweat pants. I make all three regularly for my growing boys, & for men (but

not so often as they don't grow!) and you can throw them together with

minimum effort.





Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:05:28 +0000

From: Scot Eddy <seddy at vvm.com>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: tights, our improvement


Thea said...

Greetings all...if you have lots of pins, an overlock/serger, and some

patience, fitting tights out of really nice, heavy jersey cotton knit

isn't impossible.  I useleggings as a beginning pattern and just make

them extra long (so that a foot can be formed).  You then have the wearer

put them on inside out and you just mark and pinand mark and...well, you

get it.


Jovian's comments...

We've modified this somewhat and have the process down to 30 mins./pair.

Substitute staples for pins. Sitting down or sometimes even moving with

a butt full of pinned cloth can be painful and the pinning takes time.

Just pinch the cloth tight and staple continue down the leg. Staples

should run parallel to the leg. Then take it to the serger and serge

away: being careful of the staples, of course. You need a stapler that

can get close to the skin and it uses lots of staples, but I think the

tradeoff for time saved is worth it.


Jovian Skleros



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