hose-msg - 6/24/99
Hose and leggings. Period hose. Make modern versions. Substitutions.
NOTE: See also these files: knitting-msg, pants-msg, hose-manu-MA-art, spinning-msg, silk-msg, weaving-msg, underwear-msg, Knit-Stockngs-art, knit-stockngs-msg.
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Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Ginny Beatty
Subject: RE:Hose Question
Organization: NCR - Dayton, Ohio
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 1994 21:23:18 GMT
> gdaub at mcis.messiah.EDU writes:
> I had a quick question about hose. I know that some had atached feet to
>them, but not all did. What does the bottom look like on those without
>feet? Is it just cut off straight like pants? Or is there a strap for under
>the heel to keep them in place? Or..? Thanks for the help.
Last post blanked out. The button on my newsreader is in the wrong place.
I have seen a manuscript where a farmer/peasant is wearing tight hose with bare feet and they look like stirrup pants.
To add on to the hose discussion, a friend of mine is researching 14th c. hose and underwear. Any advice on how the undergarments were created and how hose were attached would also be greatly appreciated.
Gwyneth
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: RE:Hose Question
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honur Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 94 10:35:52 EST
gleason at scf16.scf.loral.com (Robert Gleason) writes:
> I too have a keen interest in this subject. I'd also like to know when men's
> became joined into one article like the tights of today instead of two leggin
> and a cod-like piece?
>
> Parlan MacGillivray.
Good Lord, in some places the joining of the legs predates the codpiece. If you
have/know the whereabouts of a TI collection, find (In the 80's somewhere I
think) my article "No more dropped drawers: Making codpieces fit and work"
-Apropos above, has anybody done an index to TI yet? If so, where do I get
one? If not, how do we get one done?
Alizaunde, who is lucky she remembers writing it.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: hwt at bcarh11a.bnr.ca (Henry Troup)
Subject: Re: Hose Question
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 1994 13:07:03 GMT
gdaub at mcis.messiah.EDU writes:
|> I had a quick question about hose. I know that some had atached feet to
|> them, but not all did. What does the bottom look like on those without
|> feet? Is it just cut off straight like pants? Or is there a strap for under
|> the heel to keep them in place? Or..? Thanks for the help.
I've seen illustrations of stirrup hose - I think it was from the Luttrell
Psalter. It's a peasant, hoeing crops, and wear only shorts and hose. No
shoes, so you can see what appears to be that strap.
--
Henry Troup - H.Troup at BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions
From: vcarpentier at berksys.com (Victoria Carpentier)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: COSTUMING: Doublet help was Re: Rec.crafts.sca
Date: 17 Oct 1994 16:34:46 GMT
Organization: BSI
parkerd at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca (Diana Parker) wrote:
> Zach <zkessin at world.std.com> wrote:
> >Ok my question is this if I am making an early Tudor doublet what type
> >of pants/tights should I be wearing and what should I make them from.
> >
> >I figure some relativly simple wool pants should do. (Now if only i
> >remember where i put the books after the war).
> >
> >The point of this is dont kvetch about it. Just start talking about
> >crafts
>
> Apparently in an inventory of Henry VIII's wardrobe it listed x number of
> pairs of knitted hose. I read this in someone's documentation for
> knitting for an A&S competition some years ago, so I cannot recall the
Having knitted a pair of hose, I *do not* recommend it. Men's dance
tights work very well if you can find them. "Rennaisance Tights" are a
brand I have purchased in the past. My husband wears knit stockings that
I either make or 'gun socks'. Gun socks are a knitted sock for covering
guns. He has very thin legs and wears these regularly. Many costume
books descibe how to make stockings or tights by cutting on the bias to
the measurements. One word of caution-buy men's tights. Nothing else
will fit. Do not try to 'make' women's tights fit.
Good luck!
Armina Niederflub
**************************************************************
* Victoria Carpentier * After Dark[tm] Support: *
* Berkeley Systems Tech Support * All opinions are my own. *
* vcarpentier at berksys.com * mactech at berksys.com *
**************************************************************
From: UDSD073 at DSIBM.OKLADOT.STATE.OK.US (Mike Andrews)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: COSTUMING: Doublet help was Re: Rec.crafts.sca
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 09:13
Organization: The University of Oklahoma (USA)
vcarpentier at berksys.com (Victoria Carpentier) writes:
>Having knitted a pair of hose, I *do not* recommend it. Men's dance
>tights work very well if you can find them. "Rennaisance Tights" are a
>brand I have purchased in the past. My husband wears knit stockings that
>I either make or 'gun socks'. Gun socks are a knitted sock for covering
>guns. He has very thin legs and wears these regularly. Many costume
>books descibe how to make stockings or tights by cutting on the bias to
>the measurements. One word of caution-buy men's tights. Nothing else
>will fit. Do not try to 'make' women's tights fit.
But if you are fortunate enough to have a knitting machine, or
friend with one, tights are easier to make, and come out very
nicely indeed. A friend here in Namron has made me three lovely
pair of knitted tights: one white, one red/black counterchanged,
and one yellow/black counterchanged. All work very well, and hve
proven very sturdy.
Dance tights also work very well, if you can't have them knitted
to measure. I prefer Capezio mens' full-fashioned ballet tights,
which come in white, black, and several colors; the jewel-tone
colors are especially pleasing to the eye. Danskin also makes
dance tights, but I am not so fond of them.
Bias-cut fabric tights are period, too, but are a real bear to
fit, and tend to sag. The sagging is, of course, equally period
and documentable. ;=)
--
Michael Fenwick of Fotheringhay, O.L. (Mike Andrews) Namron, Ansteorra
From: haslock at fiacha.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: COSTUMING: Doublet help was Re: Rec.crafts.sca
Date: 20 Oct 1994 01:05:13 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Greetings from Fiacha,
|> I would like to know if crocheted tights would be appropriate (given that
|> I don't have access to a knitting machine and consistency is not a term
|> to be used for my hand knitting). Does anyone have any comments on this?
|>
|> Hawke
Discussions with lace makers about crochet suggest that the ealiest known
crochet hook is distinctly post period and so the likelihood of crochet tights
being period is pretty close to 0.
The discussions also included the detail that late period knitting machines
are known to exist and that they were used for making hose.
Fiacha, lacemaker, weaver and general thread wierdo.
From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: knitting was Re: COSTUMING:
Date: 23 Oct 1994 22:07:13 -0400
Organization: Public Access Internet & UNIX
"But Liz, the toads are so, so, _hairy_..." " I know, I like hair.
Just get to the quote from sapalmer at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sharon A Palmer), ok?"
>Mike Andrews <udsd007 at dsibm.okladot.state.okla.us> wrote:
>>
>>But if you are fortunate enough to have a knitting machine, or
>>friend with one, tights are easier to make, and come out very
>
>When was the knitting frame invented? I think it is period, or
>at least close to it. I don't own Rudd's _History of Knitting_
>:-(, but if no one has it to hand, I could check it out from
>the library again.
From _Lace_Machines_And_Machine_Laces_ by Pat Earnshaw:
"Caps were handknitted, but stockings in the late fifteenth century were
cut from woven cloth. This made them difficult to pull on, and gave them a
tendency to fall into heavy wrinkles, a feature visible in many paintings
of that period. The first mention of handknitted stockings in England
appears in an account of 7 September, 25 H 8, that is the 25th year of
Henry VIII's reign, or 1534:'paid for 4 peyr of knytt-hose viiis [8
shillings, or 40p]. In 1537 the future Henri II of France wore handknitted
silk hose. In 1561, the third year of her reign, Queen Elizabeth was
presented with her first pair of black silk stockings, handknitted in
England. The first pair of knitted worsted stockings is said to have been a
copy of a pair brought to England from Mantua. They were knitted by William
Rider and presented by him to the Earl of Pembroke. Timbs places this event
after 1561, Henson before, in the time of Edward VI (1547-53).
The knitting of stockings was mechanized only a few decades later.
Aubrey, writing in the 1670's attributes the invention to a Rev William Lee
(c. 1556-16100, born at Woodborough in Nottinghamshire, educated at
Cambridge, and rector of nearby Calverton."
I wish I could type more, but this is getting too long for a quote.
The upshot of the story is that steel wire-drawing was still primitive, the
prototype device was very difficult to construct as all the hooks had to
be made by hand and it could only produce a very coarse product. Lee
presented a pair of stockings knit on his invention to Queen Elizabeth,
hoping for her patronage but she recoiled from the 'pair of coarse uneven
hose in thick worsted and probably weighing the best part of a poud which
he offered her, and at the noise of the ugly awkward "engine" which had
constructed them.' She said if he might improve the machine to work in silk
and make stockings she could wear (and which wouldn't put English woolen
stocking knitters out of work) whe might reconsider. Lee worked on
improving his machine, but before he could show her the result, Elizabeth
died. James continuted her non-supportive policy.
Henri !V invited Lee to set up a workshop in France to supply silk
stockings to the French Court, but he was scarcely established in 1610 when
Henri was assasinated and his widow Marie d'Medici withdrew all patronage,
Lee died the same year. Lee's brother James took went back to England and
set up an industry and became wildly successful. By 1620 the Stocking Frame
weavers were strong enough to form themselves into a trade associatio.
So, while the knitting frame is just barely period it could not
produce work even close to the quality of hand knitting. I'm almost done
knitting a pair of wool stockings, but they are very coarse - probably
rather like Lee's machine knit ones :-) The best plan unless you are an
incorrigble knitter is borrow a knitting machine and work on those - Lee's
revised machine had 16 hooks to the inch (the early one had 8) so if you
work on that scale you should be ok. Cut your stocking pattern from the
flat knit fabric (or knit to shape if you prefer) and stitch together. This
will give the effect of hand-knit stockings shaped to the leg with much
less work.
-Liz
--
Liz Stokes |
Ilaine de Cameron |
ilaine at panix.com |
From: connect at aol.com (CONNECT)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: COSTUMING: Doublet help w
Date: 26 Oct 1994 10:37:02 -0400
If you cannot find tights that fit, you may want to try A) women's knitted
pants, or B) very snug sweats. If you are tucking them into boots, you can
probably get away with it.
One person in our group (Cynnabar) made hose out of cotton-blend knit
t-shirt material, cut on the bias. He said he made a trace of his leg, as
a pattern, then cut the fabric. It was too lose, so he shortened it up an
inch in the seams, and now it fits perfectly. He liked this, since it was
comfortable and could be made in a variety of colors.
Pattie Rayl
From: sapalmer at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sharon A Palmer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Plunderhosen
Date: 8 Nov 1994 01:15:57 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
CONNECT <connect at aol.com> wrote:
>In article <9411031738.AA00471 at jackalope.toontown>, neil at jackalope.UUCP
>(Neil Perkins 980-9892 51I05 jackalope) writes:
>
>What a wonderful name! Where did you read it? I've never come
>across a reference to "plunderhosen".
Richard Rutt's _History of Hand Knitting_ pg. 80 has a picture of
knitted truck hose with knitted-in slashes, at the Historical Museum
in Dresden, made in gold-colored silk. Probably from the middle of
the 16th century. They have a knit-in codpiece and dip down in center
front rather daringly.
Ranvaig
From: ckrupp at moose.uvm.EDU (Christina M. Krupp)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Plunderhosen
Date: 9 Nov 1994 11:17:41 -0500
OK, folks, I can't stand it any more! The correct spelling is:
*Pluderhosen*.
The only "n" is at the end of the word.
The word has no connection with "pluNder".
It is derived from the German verb "pludern," which means "to be
full or puffy".
Hoping to stave off another misleading "folk etymology"
-- Marieke
From: jennifer.lease at arch2.nara.GOV (Jennifer Lease)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Costuming, hose
Date: 12 Jan 1995 09:38:14 -0500
Some friends of mine, including my lord, who do 15th Cen.
Landeskenecht re-enactments recommend a four way stretch cotton if
they can get it. That way, I believe, the seams stay straighter and the
tights fit evenly.
I hope this helps!
Anna MacKenzie
Barony of the Bright Hills
K. of Atlantia
jennifer.lease at arch2.nara.gov
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: moore at mari.acc.stolaf.edu (Michael Moore)
Subject: Re: Costuming: hose?
Organization: St. Olaf College; Northfield, MN USA
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 17:49:00 GMT
tshelans at s-cwis.unomaha.edu (SHELANSKEY) writes:
> I find myself asked to make a cotehardie for a gentleman. That
>part is fine, no problem. But how does one make the hose that he
>should wear with them? How do you make them fit properly and most
>important, WHAT should I make them from?
>
>Tatiana Nikonovna
I am currently making a pair of hose for myself.
The trick seems to be lots of fittings; taking a tuck here and there
until they fit correctly.
The people I've talked to suggest working with stretchy fabric
(either naturally stretchy, or cut on the diagonal to the warp and weft
so that it stretches: "cut on the bias"?).
For the leg part (thigh down to ankle), it can be tight-fitting everywhere
except the ankle: if it is tight there, your heel can't fit through.
for the foot part, I worked slowly with pins and "pencil" until I had
a pattern which fit closely to my foot. The seams run along one side
of the foot, along the top of the foot to the toe, and for a short distance
along the other side of the foot at the toes and the heel.
I have yet to try the upper part :-)
This is not something I would want to have done to me by
someone I did not know well.
As said before: suggestions from experienced tailors would be
greatly appreciated!
Signoro Pellegrino d'Illuminatore
moore at stolaf.edu
From: iys6lri at mvs.oac.ucla.edu (Lori Iversen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Costuming: hose?
Date: 12 Jan 1995 22:21:23 GMT
Organization: ucla
tshelans at s-cwis.unomaha.edu (SHELANSKEY) says:
>...how does one make the hose that he
>should wear with them? How do you make them fit properly and most
>important, WHAT should I make them from?
>
>Spaciba!
>Tatiana Nikonovna
Alexis here!
Offhand (I'm at work; the library's at home), I can think of two
pattern sources: in a Dover book by Kohler (book name escapes me; it's
a half-page size book that's widely available) there's a nasty-looking
pattern for hosen buried amongst the text (late middle ages section).
The other source is Katherine Holkebjor's *Patterns for Theatrical
Costume* (I think that's the correct title), with a hosen pattern that
seems to be based on Kohler's but which others who have attempted
hosen assure me is lot's easier than Kohler's. I'll double-check
tonight and re-post tomorrow if any of this info is wrong. Incidentally,
I and most of my buds who build costumes (including pros, fans, and
SCA costumers) have all had very good luck using Holkebjor's patterns
as bases for our stuff. At worst, she's a darn sight more accurate
and needs much less adjusting than Hill & Bucknell, whose book hers
most resembles. She also has patterns for kimonos and hakama and other
specialty costumes which Hill & Bucknell don't. Someplace else you might
want to check is the pattern books at your local fabric store -- yes,
really! Check the "active sportswear" section for aerobic wear; even
if you can't find full-on tights/hosen, one of them is bound to have
a pattern for leggings, which work if you're wearing over-the-ankle
shoes which hide the lack of knit-in feet.
There is, alas, no magic wand to wave over hosen to make them fit right.
You've just gotta keep fitting them over and over. As for materials,
my first pair were cotton lycra knit, which is a bitch to work with
(especially without a serger) but fits nicely. I've also used
loose jacquard knits and ribbed t-shirt material with varying results.
Probably your most period approach would be to use woven wool cut on
the bias, which generally ends up being prohibitively expensive because
you've gotta buy so much of it. (In *The Return of Martin Guerre,* which
I have no trouble using as a reference because they did it so well and
obviously did *their* research, Martin refers fondly to a pair of hose
that his wife made him, of wool lined in *taffeta*, i.e., silk. Warm
and pretty, no doubt, but you'd need to insure them every time you wore
them out!).
Alexis Vladescu Lori Iversen
WyvernHo-ette (IYS6LRI at mvs.oac.ucla.edu)
Altavia, CAID &nbs