bananas-msg
- 12/1/11
Period
bananas. Evidence for when and where they were known and used.
Recipes.
NOTE:
See also the files: fruits-msg, apples-msg, fruit-quinces-msg,
nuts-msg, sugar-msg, vegetables-msg, fruit-melons-msg,
pomegranates-msg, fruit-citrus-msg.
************************************************************************
NOTICE
-
This
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have collected from my reading of the various computer networks.
Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This
file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium.
These files are available on the Internet at:
http://www.florilegium.org
I
have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with
separate topics were sometimes split into different files and
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The
comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I
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please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank
you,
Mark
S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************
From:
ayotte at milo.NOdak.EDU (Robert Arthur Ayotte)
Newsgroups:
rec.org.sca
Subject:
Re: Period fruits?
Date:
8 Dec 1993 08:02:24 -0500
Organization:
North Dakota State University ACM, Fargo ND
:
But no bananas or pineapple unless you get to Africa.
: My
secondary source research (Tanahill, and the Encyclopedia Britannica)
:
told me that Bananas were exported to the New World at the end of
period by
: the
Spanish and Portuguese, where bananas themselves are indigenous to
Asia
: and
not Africa. Do you have more information? I found these sources to
be
:
sufficient to convince me to work with banana, but I could be
convinced
:
either way.
According
to McGee, bananas were native to india and malaya, it arrived in
Africa around 500 AD. Europeans knew it as the indian fig.
Bananas
originally had fairly large seeds, and in some
parts
of the world they can still be found growing wild with the black
seeds
taking up nearly 1/3 of their interior.
Somewhere
I remember hearing that bananas were known in Rome, but
were
not considered fitting food for humans. The date would have been
sometime
around the time of the first Ceasers.
: It
is safe to say, however, that modern bananas are not even close to
period
:
ones, its true. But they are closer to period bananas than, say
modern pears
:
would be...
:
Tibor (ever-learning)
: --
:
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy at math.harvard.edu)
The
seeds in bananas are rock hard and vary from 1/4 inch to
almost
1/2 inch. How the seedless varieties were found is unknown.
Horace
From:
hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups:
rec.org.sca
Subject:
Re: Period fruits?
Date:
8 Dec 1993 16:44:52 GMT
Organization:
University of California, Berkeley
Robert
Arthur Ayotte <ayotte at milo.NOdak.EDU> wrote:
> Bananas
originally had fairly large seeds, and in some
>parts
of the world they can still be found growing wild with the black
>seeds
taking up nearly 1/3 of their interior.
>almost
1/2 inch. How the seedless varieties were found is unknown.
>
>Horace
The
"seedless" varieties are modern polyploid hybrids. (They
actually do
have
seeds, but they are small and infertile.) I learned something
fascinating
in this regard in my university genetics course: statistically
speaking,
something like one in every thousand (exact number forgotten)
bananas
ought to have large, fertile seeds due to the proper combination
of
ploidy in the gametes involved. Why don't we ever see _any_ in the
markets?
Because fertile bananas are easily identifiable visually and
are
removed from the bunch before being shipped. To get this back
more
on topic, specialty groceries around here carry about a dozen
different
varieties of non-standard bananas, but I have no idea whether
any
of them are ones that would have been available.
Keridwen
f. Morgan Glasfryn
Date:
Mon, 26 Apr 1999 15:41:44 -0500
From:
"Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject:
RE: SC - Fw: [TY] Fruits From 'New World'
>
My questions are:
>
1) Approximatley when did the Pineapple reach England (and
>
surrounding areas)?
According
to the quick ref, Columbus introduced the pineapple (Ananascomosus)
to Spain in 1493. I haven't seen anything as to when the pineapple
reached England, but I suspect it is in the 17th Century, after
England establishes colonies in the Caribbean.
>
2) Waht other 'New World' fruits were discovered and when...
Also
attached to Columbus' return in 1493 is the plantain
(Musaparadisiaca), a relative of the banana. The fruit is similar to
the fruit of genus Plantago which appears to have been cultivated in
Europe at the time and was also known as plantain.
>
-Ly. Ganna
Bear
Date:
Mon, 5 Jul 1999 16:32:22 -0700
From:
david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject:
Bananas (was RE: SC - Hummus and Other Questionably Period Foods)
At
2:38 PM -0400 7/5/99, Michelle \"TJ\" Brunzie wrote:
>Like
bananas - I'm sure
>bananas
have come up already - which I was wondering about because I have
>this
book (which isn't *that* historical) which asserts that bananas were
>introduced
to Europe by Muslims.
Could
be.
Taciunem
Sanitatas, which is a 14th c. latin book based on an Arabic
original,
has a picture of bananas by someone who has clearly never seen
one,
and says they are grown in Sicily. Sicily had been Muslim, was
conquered
by by Normans in, I think, the 12th c., but may still have been
to
some degree culturally Muslim later.
Also,
there was a recent story about a 16th c. banana peel someone found in
England.
David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/
Date:
Wed, 10 May 2000 10:34:24 -0500
From:
"Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject:
RE: SC - Unhistoric things we serve WAS:Shepherds Pie
>
Warning! Warning Will Robinson! Andrea..... Bananas are
>
period dating back to pre-Roman times. Hannibals army
>
were among the first Western Europeans to taste bananas.
Pliny
specifically gives credit to Alexander the Great's army which invaded
India
and provides a description of the banana. The fruit was apparently
unknown
in the Mediterrenean Basin in 1st Century CE, so I doubt Hannibal
found
any on his alpine elephantine excursion.
The
best evidence is that bananas were brought to the Middle East and
North
Africa
around 700 CE as part of the Islamic expansion and were brought to
Central
Africa as part of the Arab slave trade. They are believed to have
arrived
in Madagascar about 300 CE during a migration from Indonesia and
were
traded into South Africa from there.
>
They were grown
>
in the Canary Islands by the Portugese before the discovery of the
>
New World. A number of items now grown so extensively in the
>
New World are actually Old World!
The
Portuguese found bananas in West Africa and imported them to the
Canaries
where they began cultivating them. The Spanish took the Canaries
in
the late 15th Century and in 1516, bananas were transported to the
New
World.
>
True, period bananas are not
>
similar to modern breeds you get at the Safeway, but they are
>
absolutely period! To find recipes, you will need to look at early
>
Islamic and Judaic cookery (they will be hard to find I
>
think). Period
>
bananas look more like those stubby reddish ones you see on
>
ocassion in some larger stores.
>
>
Akim Yaroslavich
While
there has been selective breeding to improve the stock, the banana
varieties
available today were available in period, though they may not have
been
in a commonly frequented local. IIRC, the Cavendish, which is
today's
common
yellow banana, is out of Asia and is the choice commercial banana
because
it is hardier than the Big Mike (originally from the Canaries) that
it
replaced in the trade and that small yellow and small red bananas
were
also
being grown in the Canaries.
Bear
Date:
Thu, 11 May 2000 00:58:12 -0700 (PDT)
From:
Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject:
SC - Bananas
Here
is what the Oxford Companion to Food says about
bananas:
It
seems likely that edible bananas date back several
thousand
years in India. There were certainly known
by
repute to the Greeks in the 4th Century BC, when
the
army of Alexander the Great encountered them on
trees
in India. PLiny the Elder, writing several
centuries
later, recorded the incident and cited the
name
"pala" for the fruit. This name passed into
classical
Greek and is reflected in some modern Indian
names.
The classical writer Theofrastus repeated a
legend
that wise men sat in the shade of the banana
tree
and ate its fruit, whence the pleasing but now
obsolete
botanical name M. sapientium, meaning 'banana
of
the sages.'
The
banana reached China about AD 200, when it is
mentioned
in the works of Yang Fu. However, it was
grown
only in the south, and was considered a rare,
exotic
fruit in the north, an attitude that lasted
well
into the 20th Century.
During
the 1st Millenium AD, the banana also arrived
in
Africa, probably taken directly from the Malay
region
to Madagascar. By the end of the 14th century,
the
fruit was being cultivated right across the
continent
to the west coast.
During
the same period, it was take eastward through
the
Pacific Islands. The Arabs had spread cultivation
through
their lands south of the Mediterranean before
AD
650, but no farther north than Egypt, the climate
of
South Europe being too cool for the plant.
Consequently,
the banana remained unknown to most
Europeans
until much later.
THe
first serious European contact with the fruit came
not
long after 1402, when Portuguese sailors found it
in
West Africa and took it to the Canary Islands.
That
is why the European name 'banana' comes from a
West
African word, the Guinean banema or banana. The
Canaries
have remained an important banana-growing
area
ever since, and it was from there that a Spanish
missionary,
later Bishop of Panama, took banana roots
to
American in 1516, after which the new plant spread
quickly
through Central America and the northern parts
of
South America. For some reason, the Spaniards saw
a
likeness between the banana tree and the totally
different
plane tree (plateno), which is how the
plantain
got its confusing name.
Huette
Date:
Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:18:50 -0600
From:
"Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject:
RE: SC - Bananas?
>What
references, if any, do we have for bananas used as foodstuffs during
>our
period?
>
>Malachias
Pliny
describes bananas and their consumption in India based on Nearchus'
invasion
of Northern India around 325 BCE. Apparently the fruit was not
brought
back to Greece at that time.
The
fruit was brought to Africa from Southeast Asia about 325 CE by a
migration
to Mozambique. A second importation to North Africa occurred
after
the Arab conquest of Nothern India at the beginning of the 8th
Century.
Between the two importations and the Arab slave trade into Central
Africa,
bananas spread to the West Coast of Africa by the 15th Century.
There
are supposedly references to bananas in some of the Arab texts, but I
have
not found the texts or translations.
The
Portuguese found bananas in West Africa and brought them to the
Canary
Islands
after the islands were taken from Castile in 1425. The bananas were
under
cultivation when Spain retook the islands in 1496.
Oviedo
records the importation of bananas from the Canary Islands to the
Caribbean
in his "Historia general y natural de las Indias, Islas y
Tierra-Firme
del Mar Oceano" in 1517. While there are a few quibbles, the
evidence
suggests that this is the initial introduction of bananas into the
New
World.
The
banana which turned up in a Tudor trash heap represents, in my
opinion,
an
anomalous import from the Canaries. Two professionals commenting on
the
origin
of this particular banana suggested the New World and Southeast Asia.
Both
are doubtful, since bananas last only about 10 to 14 days after
cutting
without
carefully controlled refrigeration.
While
the banana was eaten in Africa, Asia, and probably Arabia and the
Levant
during the SCA period, it is a tropical fruit, and its perishable
nature
severely limited its use in Europe. The banana was not a
commercially
viable crop outside of the tropics until the advent of steam
powered
transportation.
Bear
Date:
Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:54:26 -0800
From:
david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject:
RE: SC - Bananas?
At
12:18 PM -0600 12/18/00, Decker, Terry D. wrote:
>There
are supposedly references to bananas in some of the Arab texts, but I
>have
not found the texts or translations.
_The
Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti_ is based on an Arab text,
of
which I think the Latin version is Taciunum Sanitatas. It mentions
bananas
as being grown in Sicily, I believe, but the picture was
pretty
clearly drawn by someone who had never seen one.
- --
David
Friedman
ddfr
at best.com
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
Date:
Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:59:12 -0800 (PST)
From:
=?iso-8859-1?q?Tina=20Nevin?= <thorngrove at yahoo.com>
Subject:
RE: SC - Bannana
If
you would like to see a photo of the Tudor trash heap bannana skin,
take
a peek at my webpage here:
http://www.geocities.com/thorngrove/banana.jpg
Ciao
Lucrezia
Date:
Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:00:08 -0600
From:
"Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject:
RE: SC - Bannana
>
Thanks Lucrezia.
>
Which museum is that from?
>
I am curious as to what they say about it's presence.
>
>
Beatrice
The
Museum of London. Here's a further URL for your perusal:
http://www.museum-london.org.uk/MOLsite/forum/lbc4.html
I
would point out that we really can not say the banana was eaten in
England
within
the SCA period. A single banana peel represents an archeological
anomaly.
It may be of Tudor origin or it may be an intrusive artifact.
If
you want a banana recipe presumably medieval and Arabic, but of no
provable
provenance, try slicing a banana into a dish, add blanched almonds
and
honey, stir to mix, pour sesame oil upon it and serve it forth.
For
the experimental and not overly historically accurate, prepare them
like
wardens
in syrup or bake them into a tart.
Or,
based upon Pliny's commentary, you might serve it in that most
unusual
of
ways--raw.
Bear
Date:
Thu, 21 Dec 2000 02:22:19 +0100
From:
TG <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject:
SC - Bananas
I.
The
11th century Taqwim al-Sihha of Ibn Butlan (Tacuin sanitatis) has an
entry
on bananas with one sentence on how to eat them. Here is a rough
English
paraphrase based on the Editor's French translation of his arab
edition:
- --
'To eat it with sugar and honey helps to make good use of it (?).
Make
sure that the banana is ripe and thoroughly peeled and drink some
perfumed
wine afterwards'
- --
"La manger avec du sucre et du miel aide ‡ la faire bien
apprÈcier,
surtout
quand elle est m°re, bien pelÈe et suivie d'un vin parfumÈ".
(Elkhadem
155)
The
strange pictures in the _Four seasons of the house of Cerruti_,
David
mentioned, might be explained by the fact that this passage was
later
understood to refer to a different kind of plant (Latin printed
ed.
1531: musae, poma paradisi, German ed. 1533: Paradiesˆpffel).
II.
According
to Maxime Rodinson's 'Recherches sur les documents arabes
relatifs
‡ la cuisine' [1950; Inquiries into the arab texts pertinent to
cookery],
there are two recipes with bananas in the 'Kitab al-Wusla ila
l-Habib'
(Book of the connection to the friend; 12th century; later
manuscripts).
As far as I know, there is no edition of this text yet,
but
at least Rodinson's summary [On donne ci-dessous un sommaire du
contenu
de l'ouvrage; 130] indicates, that there _are_ two banana
recipes:
- --
'Two dishes of meat with bananas'
- --
"2 plats de viande aux bananes" (p. 138).
Th.
Date:
Wed, 2 May 2001 08:51:12 -0500
From:
"Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject:
RE: SC - What would you do? or 2 months to freak out
>
> Umm. I'd hate to see a possibly rare, even one-time import of
some
>
> bananas used to justify the use of bananas as period.
>
>
Havent seen any updates yet refuting it.
AFAIK,
there has been no conclusive finding with regard to the banana peel.
Bananas
were in use in the Middle East and Africa at the time. In the late
15th
Century, Portuguese explorers found bananas on the West Coast of
Africa
and
transplanted some to the Canary Islands. In 1517, banana shoots were
transplanted
from the Canaries to the New World.
Because
they are extremely perishable (10 to 12 days after cutting), they
are
more likely to have been used where they were grown than imported
into
Europe.
The banana trade in the U.S. and Europe becomes a business only
after
the advent of reliable steam transportation.
Bear
Date:
Wed, 2 May 2001 15:02:22 -0400
From:
"Peters, Rise J." <rise.peters at spiegelmcd.com>
Subject:
RE: SC - bananas
What's
even worse is that the bananas they would have been eating... those
lovely
things they grow in the Canaries -- taste completely different from
what
we buy at the supermarket. But they are over-ripe and brown within
hours
after they are removed from the trees, and when something has to be
sacrificed
for marketability/transportability, the something is always
flavor.
I ate
bananas on Gomera, in the Canaries, until I just about popped.... and
it
was a long time before I could stomach the ones at home again.
Date:
Wed, 2 May 2001 13:58:08 -0500
From:
"Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject:
RE: SC - bananas
>
I think Bear's main point was that until the creation of faster
>
transportation (steamship?), bananas just didn't last long enough to
>
get from their point of origin to England in an edible condition.
>
>
Stefan li Rous
I am
of the opinion the banana peel is a period anomaly unless it can be
reasonably
demonstrated that it is an intrusive artifact. It was originally
reported
that the peel was encapsulated in the midden leading the excavating
archeologists
to believe it was not intrusive. The peel is anomalous
because
it is the only one discovered and there are no references to bananas
being
imported into England before the 19th Century.
From
Oviedo, we know that the Canary Islands had bananas in 1517 and that
the
priest who would later become the Bishop of Panama was the first
person
known
to import banana shoots into the New World. The Canaries are within
10
days sail of England for a fast ship, so bananas could be imported
from
the
Canaries (or Madeira, which is closer and probably also had bananas
under
cultivation).
Bananas
were known and eaten in the 16th Century. However, the idea that
they
could be a regular import into Europe is not very likely given the
unreliablity
of sea travel and the perishability of the fruit, especially
when
one considers the difficulties of getting the fruit to market even
after
the developement of steamships.
Bear
Date:
Wed, 2 May 2001 15:14:09 -0500
From:
"Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject:
RE: SC - bananas
>
I have read that bananas were eaten by Near Easterners in period,
>
however. So perhaps at a Near Eastern banquet, although i haven't
>
found a recipe that includes them yet.
>
>
Anahita
Thomas
Gloning provided the following a while back:
The
11th century Taqwim al-Sihha of Ibn Butlan (Tacuin sanitatis) has an
entry
on bananas with one sentence on how to eat them. Here is a rough
English
paraphrase based on the Editor's French translation of his arab
edition:
- -
-- 'To eat it with sugar and honey helps to make good use of it (?).
Make
sure
that the banana is ripe and thoroughly peeled and drink some perfumed
wine
afterwards' - -- "La manger avec du sucre et du miel aide · la
faire
bien
apprªcier, surtout quand elle est mfre, bien pelªe et suivie d'un
vin
parfumª".
(Elkhadem 155)
According
to Maxime Rodinson's 'Recherches sur les documents arabes relatifs
· la
cuisine' [1950; Inquiries into the arab texts pertinent to cookery],
there
are two recipes with bananas in the 'Kitab al-Wusla ila l-Habib'
(Book
of
the connection to the friend; 12th century; later manuscripts). As
far as
I
know, there is no edition of this text yet, but at least Rodinson's
summary
[On donne ci-dessous un sommaire du contenu de l'ouvrage; 130]
indicates,
that there _are_ two banana recipes:
- -
-- 'Two dishes of meat with bananas'
- -
-- "2 plats de viande aux bananes" (p. 138).
While
I came across a recipe in a 1920's textbook on bananas which purports
to be
Medieval and Arabic but has no provenance:
slice
a banana into a dish, add blanched almonds and honey, stir to mix,
pour
sesame oil upon it and serve it forth.
Bear
From:
"Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To:
"'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at
ansteorra.org>
Date:
Thu, 3 May 2001 08:35:19 -0500
Subject:
[Sca-cooks] RE: SC - bananas and bowels
IIRC,
Pliny comments that over-indulgence in bananas caused loose bowels
among
Alexander's troops.
Bear
>
Bananas are certainly a modern folk remedy for loose bowels.
>
>
Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise
From:
"Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To:
"'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at
ansteorra.org>
Date:
Thu, 3 May 2001 13:15:54 -0500
Subject:
[Sca-cooks] RE: SC - bananas
<clipped>
>
So, to recap, Gerard, on or slightly before 1597, received a banana
fruit
>
shipped from Syria. It was preserved in a pickle solution.
>
>
Johnson, on April 10, 1633, received a live banana plant with fruit
cluster
>
shipped from the Bahamas. He picked the fruit stalk and hung it in
his
>
shop. The fruit ripened about 3 weeks later, and didn't rot until
June.
>
>
We have, therefore, two viable methods for an intentional circa-1500s
>
import of a banana into England. Pickling of the ripe fruit,
>
or shipment of a fruiting live plant.
>
>
Comments?
>
>
Cindy
Was
the banana listed in the first edition of the Herball or was it added
in
a
later revision? IIRC, the Herball was revised for a later edition
and
incorporated
notes and occurrences from after the original publication.
Quite
a bit of the Herball was presumably taken from Rembert Dodoens'
Cruydeboek
(1554). Do you know whether or not the banana appears in the
Cruydeboek?
(I suspect not, but I've never seen a copy of Dodoens' work).
Banana
seeds are sterile. Banana trees reproduce by growing shoots from the
root.
Individual stalks die after producing one crop of bananas.
Transplanted
shoots account for bananas in the Canaries and in the New
World.
This is the first account I've seen of transporting a full banana
stalk.
I would think transporting a fruiting plant might be more difficult
than
transporting bunches of bananas, which may be why commercial
production
didn't
appear in the 17th Century.
The
fact that it took 3 weeks for the fruit to ripen suggests that it was
picked
very early and that it may have been a cool spring. I also wonder if
what
was shipped wasn't a banana shoot and what arrived was a fruiting
plant;
however, since we don't know anything about the preparation or
transit
time from the Bahamas, that's pure speculation.
Bear
From:
"Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To:
"'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at
ansteorra.org>
Subject:
RE: [Sca-cooks] bananas
Date:
Thu, 3 May 2001 17:09:16 -0500
Modern
hybrids have been grown mainly to provide bigger fruit better able to
stand
transporting. They have nothing to do with the seeds being sterile.
Ovieda
reports that banana shoots were taken to the New World. Ergo, the
period
domesticated banana had sterile seeds.
The
botanical opinion is the banana was one of the first domesticated
plants
and
that the sterility of the seeds occurred sometime in the Neolithic,
improving
the plant for human consumption and requiring human intervention
to
reproduce. IIRC, all members of the genus Musa including the
plantain
have
sterile seeds and are considered domesticated. Other genera in the
family
Musacae have seeds of varying sizes and viability.
Bear
>
Okay, but are you referring to a modern hybrid? or to period bananas?
>
Here are two messages from my fruit-bananas-msg file. Of course, it
is
>
also possible they are really talking about the plantain.
>
>
Stefan li Rous
>
stefan at texas.net
From:
"Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To:
"'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at
ansteorra.org>
Subject:
RE: [Sca-cooks] RE: SC - bananas
Date:
Thu, 3 May 2001 16:02:10 -0500
>
My question, I suppose, would be are they talking about plantains or
>
bananas? Perhaps they are talking of both, but they are
>
different. If he hung the bunch in the window and they lasted that
long I
>
would think he was talking about plantains.
>
>
Olwen
I
hadn't considered that possibility.
Plantains
and bananas are both mentioned in Pliny and their migration into
the
Middle East and Africa were probably similar.
We
know when bananas were brought to the Caribbean because of Oviedo,
but I
don't
know about plantains.
Johnson's
description is not complete enough to determine the species of
Musa
and he doesn't mention whether he cooked the banana or not when he
tasted
it. The comparison to muskmelon suggests that he ate the fruit raw,
which
in turn would suggest it was a banana as plantains are cooked. If he
kept
them hanging around for a month after they ripened, I would agree
"the
pulp
or meat was very soft and tender..."
Bear
Date:
Fri, 4 May 2001 09:51:40 +0200
To:
sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From:
"Cindy M. Renfrow" <cindy at thousandeggs.com>
Subject:
[Sca-cooks] RE: SC - bananas - long
>Was
the banana listed in the first edition of the Herball or was it added
in
>a
later revision? IIRC, the Herball was revised for a later edition
and
>incorporated
notes and occurrences from after the original publication. <snip>
If
Johnson has put his indicators in the correct places, bananas were
listed
in the 1st edition, along with 2 illustrations, *Musa Serapionis*
and
*Musa Fructus*.
Gerard
says "In the middest of the top among the leaues commeth forth a
soft
and fungous stumpe, whereon do grow diuers apples in forme like a
small
Cucumber, and of the same bignesse, couered with a thin rinde like
that
of the Fig, of a yellow colour when they be ripe: the pulpe or
substance
of the meate is like that of the Pompion, without either seeds,
stones,
or kernels, in tast not greatly perceiued at the first, put
presently
after it pleaseth, and entiseth a man to eat liberally thereof,
by a
certaine entising sweetnes it yeelds: in which fruit, if it be cut
according
to the length (saith myne Author) oblique, transuerse, or any
other
way whatsoeuer, may be seen the shape and forme of a crosse, with a
man
fastned thereto. My selfe haue seene the fruit, and cut it in pieces,
which
was brought me from Aleppo [Syria] in pickle; the crosse I might
perceiue,
as the forme of a spred-egle in the root of Ferne; but the man I
leaue
to be sought for by those that haue better eyes and iudgment than my
selfe."
The
fact that it turns yellow when it ripens, and that it seems to be
being
eaten
raw, leads me to believe it is the banana and not the plantain that
Gerard
is describing. Under vertues (see below) he does mention adding
ginger
or other spice for those with cold constitutions.
Johnson
then adds
"Aprill
10. 1633. my much honored friend ). Argent (now President of the
Colledge
of Physitions of London) gaue me a plant he receiued from the
Bermuda's:
the length of the stalke was some two foot; the thicknesse
thereof
some seuen inches about, being crested, and full of a soft pith, so
that
one might easily with a knife cut it asunder. It was crooked a
little,
or indented, so that each two or three inches space it put forth a
knot
of some halfe inch thicknesse, and some inch in length, which
incompassed
it morre than halfe about; and vpon each of these ioints or
knots,
in two rankes one aboue another, grew the fruit, some twenty,
nieteene,
eithteene, &c. mor or lesse, at each knot: for the branch I had,
contained
nine knots or diuisions, and vpon the lowest knot grew twenty
[fruits],
and vpon the vppermost fifteene. The fruit which I receiued was
not
ripe, but greene, each of them was about the bignesse of a large
Beane;
the
length of them some fiue inches, and the bredth some inch and
halfe...
This
stalke with the fruit thereon I hanged vp in my shop, were it became
ripe
about the beginning of May, and lasted vntil Iune: the pulp or meat
was
very soft and tender, and it did eate somewhat like a
Muske-Melon...This
Plant is found in many places of Asia, Africke, and
America,
especially in the hot regions: you may find frequent mention of it
amongst
the sea voyages to the East and West Indies, by the name of
Plantaines,
or Platanus, Bannanas, Bonnanas, Bouanas, Dauanas, Poco, &c.
Some
(As our Author hath said) haue iudged it the forbidden fruit;
other-some,
the Grapes brought to Moses out of the Holy-land."
Johnson
has also added the figure Musae fructus exactior Icon, An exacter
figure
of the Plantaine fruit.
Gerard
also lists the place (Egypt, Cyprus, Syria, Tripolis, Canara, Decan
Guzarate,
Bengala, East Indies), time, names ("It is called *Musa* by such
as
trauell to Aleppo: by the Arabians, *Musa Maum*: In Syria, *Mose*:
The
Grecians
and Christians which inhabit Syria, and the Iewes also, suppose it
to be
that tree of whose fruit Adam did taste; which others thinke to be a
ridiculous
fable: of Pliny, *Opuntia*. It is called in the East Indies (as
as
Malauar where it also groweth) *Palan*: in Malayo, *Pican*: and in
that
part
of Africa which we call Ginny, *Bananas*: in English, Adams Apple
tree.")
and temperature. He gets some of his information from Dioscorides
and
Serapio.
Of
the Vertues, Gerard adds "The fruit hereof yeeldeth but little
nourishment:
it is good for the heate of the breast, lungs, and bladder: it
stoppeth
the liuer, and hurteth the stomacke if too much of it be eaten,
and
procureth loosenesse in the belly: whereupon it is requisit for such
as
are
of a cold constitution, in the eating thereof to put vnto it a little
Ginger
or other spice.
Cindy
From:
"Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To:
"'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at
ansteorra.org>
Subject:
RE: [Sca-cooks] RE: SC - bananas - long
Date:
Sat, 5 May 2001 22:01:05 -0500
They
were found in India by Alexander's troops about 325 BCE. According
to
various
references, they most probably originated in SE Asia and were spread
to
China, India, Africa and the Pacific during various migrations.
Bear
>
For what it's worth, the Larousse Gastronomique lists
>
the origin of Plantain (both vegetable and fruit
>
varieties) as natives of India. Of course, there are
>
no references as to where the information came from.
>
>
Balthazar of Blackmoor
From:
"Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To:
"'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at
ansteorra.org>
Subject:
RE: [Sca-cooks] RE: SC - bananas - long
Date:
Sun, 6 May 2001 18:06:48 -0500
Thanks
for all the information, Cindy. I'll be adding it to my notes.
I
remembered the quote from Oviedo as mentioning shoots, but I was in
error.
That
comes of trying to work off the top of my head.
I'm
including the quote translated from Oviedo and some information about
the
commercial trade in bananas which helps provide insight into the
problems
of transporting bananas.
Bear
"There
is a fruit here which is called "Plantanos"...nor did they
use to be
in
the Indies but were brought hither....Obe hears on all sides that
this
special
kind was brought from the Island of Gran Canaria in the year 1516 by
the
Reverend Father Friar Tomas de Berlanga of the Oreder of
Predicadores,
to
this city of Santo Domingo whence the spread to other settlements of
this
island
and to all other islands peopled by Christians. And they have even
been
carried to the mainland and in every part they have flourished....The
first
ones were brought, as has been said, from Gran Canaria, and I saw
them
there
in the very monastery of San Francisco in the year 1520. Also they
are
in the other Fortunate of Canary Islands and I have heard say they
are
found
in the city of Almeria in the Kingdom of Granada. They say that this
plant
was passed thence to the Indies and that to Almeria it came from the
Levant
and from Alexandria and East India."
Oviedo,
y Valdez, Gonzales Fernandes de, "Historia general y natural de
las
Indies,
Islas y Tierra-Firma del Mar Oceano"; Toledo, 1526.
"Bananas
were first imported commercially into England in small quantities
from
Madeira in 1878 and from the Canary Islands in 1882, but were
regarded
as
exotic rarities. In 1884 the total importations into England were
about
10,000
bunches. In 1892, Arthur H. Stockley and A. Roger Ackerly for Elder,
Dempster
and Company, began importations from the Canary Islands, and about
this
time Fyffe, Hudson and Company also started to import bananas from
these
islands. During the next decade the fruit passed from what might be
termed
the 'luxury stage' to that of an everyday food.
"Minor
C. Keith about 1896 or 1897, commenced trial shopments of Costa Rica
bananas
from New York to Liverpool in the fastest avialable Atlantic liners
of
the time. The bunches, with the ends of the stems covered in
asphaltum,
were
packed in dried banana leaves and placed in crates of boxes. One
thousand
to two thousand bunches were shipped weekly in this manner and the
fruit
sold at auction at Covent Garden, London. Some of the fruit arrived
in
good shape and sold as high as the equivalent of fifteen dollars a
bunch,
but
too often it arrived in spoiled condition. At the end of a
three-year
period,
Keith found that he had lost some $15,000 in the venture and stopped
shipments.
"In
1901, the Imperial Direct Line between Bristol and Jamaica was
started
by
Sir Alfred Jones, Chairman of Elder, Dempster and Company, and
steamships,
especially fitted with refrigerating apparatu, loaded at Jamaica
a
cargo of about 25,000 bunches once a fortnight."
Reynolds,
Philip Keep, "The Banana, Its History, Cultivation and Place
Among
Staple
Foods;" Houghton Mifflin Co., New York, 1927.
"Immediately
upon the arrival at the wharf of the first trainload of
bananas,
the loading of the steamship begins and continues day and night
without
interruption until completed....The cutting orders and the train
schedules
are arranged so that a continuous flow of fruit is assured. A
cargo
of 85,000 bunches is dispatched in about fifteen hours.
"...Each
class of fruit is ususally put by itself. Bunches are stowed on
end,
resting on the lower end (butt) of the stalk in from one to four
tiers
in
the following manner; one, two or three standing (end to end); one
two or
three
standing and one flat; or, one, two ro three standing and two flat.
The
spaces between bunches, between hands and stalks, and between the
fingers,
form natural channels for the circulation of air.
"...All
ironwork is properly sheather, and rough surfaces as well as sharp
edges
are eliminated to prevent bruising and discoloration of the fruit.
"Each
compartment is divided into bins of convenient size by verticle
wooden
partitions
of open construction called "shifting boards" (similar to
the old
farm
gate). These wooden bars, or bin boards, keep the fruit from
shifting
and
from becoming crushed from the roll and pitch of the ship in heavy
weather.
"Refrigeration,
as applied to banana cargos, is the treatment of the fruit
with
cooled and properly conditioned air, and should not be confused with
the
customary cold-storage operation in which low temperatures are
essential.
"In
transporting banana cargoes in good condition, there are three
principal
opposing
factors to be met, i.e., heat, humidity, and vitiated air. At the
beginning
of a voyage when the hatched are closed, these three factors are
exerting
their maximum influence against the fruit. During this time the
temperatures
of the outside atmosphere and of the sea-water are at their
maximum.
This is the most critical period for the banana cargo, and quick
control
of temperatures, with full efficiency of refrigeration, is
imperative.
As the impure atmosphere created by the respiration of the
fruit
has a potent ripening influence, ir is essential that the air in the
holds
be kept fresh, especially during the period of temperature reduction.
"...It
is the usual practice to "pre-cool" the holds of a
refrigerated
steam-ship
for a period of twelve hours just prior to loading. When the
vessel
is loaded, every effort is made to reduce the temperature to the
desired
drgree in the briefest time possible...
"...In
the early stages of cooling, the amount of heat given off by the
average
cargo of bananas is about 8,000,000 British thermal units per hour.
"...According
to the distance, route, and speed of the vessel, the voyage
from
the various banana ports of Central America and Jamaica to New
Orleans,
Mobile
or Galveston consumes from there to five days; to Boston, New York,
Philadelphia,
or Baltimore, about seven or eight days; and to British and
Continental
ports, fifteen or sixteen days. On account of the longer ocean
voyage,
the bananas shipped to the European market are of a slightly thinner
grade
(less fully developed) that those sent to the United States."
Temperatures
in Fahrenheit
56
Holding ripe bananas
58
Holding green bananas
60
Slow ripening
62 to
66 Normal ripening
68
Fast or forced ripening
72 or
over Danger of cooking
Reynolds,
Philip Keep, "The Banana, Its History, Cultivation and Place
Among
Staple
Foods;" Houghton Mifflin Co., New York, 1927.
To:
sca-cooks at ansteorra.org,
"'sca-cooks
at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: SC - bananas
From:
Kirrily Robert <skud at infotrope.net>
Date:
Thu, 03 May 2001 21:48:59 -0400
>however,
since we don't know anything about the preparation or
>transit
time from the Bahamas, that's pure speculation.
Trans-atlantic
sailing time in that period was 6-12 weeks, depending on
exactly
where you're going from/to and weather conditions, IIRC.
--
Kirrily
'Skud' Robert - skud at infotrope.net - http://infotrope.net/
From:
"Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To:
"'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at
ansteorra.org>
Subject:
RE: [Sca-cooks] more on bananas
Date:
Mon, 14 May 2001 08:42:45 -0500
>
The April issue of "BBC History Magazine" has in their
calender for April 10:
>
"1633: The first bananas imported to England go on sale."
>
--
>
THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of
Ansteorra
April
10, 1633 to be precise. This is the bunch of bananas displayed in
the
shop
of Thomas Johnson, who edited Gerard's Herball.
Without
the additional information, the implication is that this is the
start
of continuous commercial banana sales in England. It isn't. The
first
commercial importations were from Madeira in the 19th Century. They
were
an exotic fruit, expensive and not widely consumed.
Even
with steamships in the 19th Century, a lot of the bananas which
reached
England
from South America spoiled in transit. The English trade in bananas
became
commercially viable in the late 19th Century with air conditioned,
steam
powered, banana freighters.
Bear
From:
"Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To:
"'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at
ansteorra.org>
Subject:
RE: [Sca-cooks] more on bananas
Date:
Mon, 14 May 2001 08:45:48 -0500
It is
identified as a banana peel in the popular press, who presumably got
the
information from the archeologists. I believe it was examined by a
qualified
archeobotanist, but would need to verify that. AFAIK, the
official
report hasn't been published.
Bear
>
Quick question: Are we all sure this was a banana
>
peel discovered in an English midden, and not a
>
plantain peel? The latter, IIRC, ripen much, much
>
slower than bananas.
>
>
Balthazar of Blackmoor
From:
Christina Nevin <cnevin at caci.co.uk>
To:
"'SCA Cookslist'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Date:
Tue, 29 May 2001 12:10:14 +0100
Subject:
[Sca-cooks] Tudor Plaintain/Banana debate
I've
been talking to one of the curators at the Museum of London, and
she's
told
me they have just this week sent 2 samples of the skin off for DNA
and
Carbon
14 testing (only just got the funding).
She
also said she found a document 3 years ago about the importation of a
whole
range of exotic fruits, including the plaintain, which she is hoping
to
publish with the results of the analysis. She said she'd get back to
me
(probably
in a few months) so further details will follow.
Lucrezia
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Lady
Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia | mka Tina Nevin
Thamesreach
Shire, The Isles, Drachenwald | London, UK
Date:
Mon, 24 May 2004 07:28:16 -0400
From:
Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Dayboard-like Fighter Food
To:
Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
I
don't know about banana pudding, but, for the Mediterranean region
during
the Renaissance, according to Clifford Wright, in his "A
Mediterranean
Feast", bananas are period, having been introduced at
least
to southern Italy and Spain by the Arabs.
Kiri
Stefan
li Rous wrote:
>
This is not period, but would fighters go for banana pudding? Bananas
>
are good because of the potassium they contain, right?
>
>
Stefan
Date:
Thu, 24 Aug 2006 16:57:00 +0100
From:
"Christina Nevin" <cnevin at caci.co.uk>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana WAS Images of Dining in Ireland 1581
To:
"SCA-Cooks (E-mail)" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Just
a note to say the skin found in the Thames midden was actually a
plantain,
not a banana. I emailed the gentleman in charge at the
museum
just after the London Eats Out exhibition (which is when it
was
displayed) and he said DNA tests had proven it to be such. You
can
see a rather small photo of it (pre-digital camera days for me!)
on my
website here:
http://www.thorngrove.net/athenaeum/eatsout4.htm
<http://
www.thorngrove.net/http://www.thorngrove.net/athenaeum/eatsout4.htm>
ciao
Lucrezia
========================================================================
Baronessa
Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia | Christina Nevin
Thamesreach
Shire, Drachenwald | London, UK
Date:
Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:28:52 -0500
From:
"Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana WAS Images of Dining in Ireland 1581
To:
"Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at
lists.ansteorra.org>
I
would say it doesn't matter that the fruit is Musa paradisiaca rather
then
M.
acuminata. Both fruits are tropical, don't travel very well
(although
the
plantain may do better than the banana), and the closest source is
the
Canary
Islands. The question is how did it get into a Tudor period midden?
The
chief difference is the plantain requires cooking before eating.
It
does occur to me that this may be a specimen taken from a private
botanical
garden rather than an exotic import.
Bear
>
Just a note to say the skin found in the Thames midden was actually a
>
plantain, not a banana. I emailed the gentleman in charge at the
museum
>
just after the London Eats Out exhibition (which is when it was
displayed)
>
and he said DNA tests had proven it to be such. You can see a rather
small
>
photo of it (pre-digital camera days for me!) on my website here:
>
http://www.thorngrove.net/athenaeum/eatsout4.htm
>
<http://www.thorngrove.net/http://www.thorngrove.net/athenaeum/eatsout4.htm>
>
>
ciao
>
Lucrezia
Date:
Tue, 1 Sep 2009 14:58:38 -0500
From:
"Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To:
"Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at
lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Plantains: Period for Old World?
<<<
So. I know bananas are Old World (Period for Asia, Africa, and the
Middle/Near
East). I was reading on Joe Pastry blog
(http://joepastry.web.aplus.net/?blog=1&page=1&paged=2
) that plantains
are
often for a lot of the things that normally use potatoes. I'm
wondering
if potatoes, when first brought back from the New World, were
used
in ways that they would have normally used plantains. >>>
Plantains
are primarily a food of East Asia, the Asiatic islands, South
India,
and East and Central Africa. Given the problems with raising various
types
of Musa and maintaining the fruit in transit, Middle Eastern use of
the
plantain was probably limited to those areas with close proximity to
East
Africa. To my knowledge there are no European recipes for plantains
in
period
(and please don't confuse Musa and Plantago, they're two different
critters
sharing the same common name).
Sweet
potatoes (Ipomea batata) enter the scene first. They are encountered
in
the West Indies by Columbus. They are introduced into the slave
trade by
the
Portuguese and are brought to Asia by them. They were probably
introduced
into the Phillipines, Japan and China by the Spanish in the
middle
of the 16th Century. Europeans knew sweet potatoes very well and ate
them.
At the time, they were referred to as potatoes or Spanish potatoes
by
the
English.
The
white potato (Solanum tuberosum) wasn't encountered until the late
1530's
and while samples were given to the Vatican gardens in the 1540's, it
doesn't
show up as a foodstuff in Europe until around 1570 and that as a
single
line in a hospital record. John Gerard recieves a sample in 1586 and
Carolus
Clusius gets one in 1587. While the white potato probably got a
toe-hold
during the Thirty Years War, it's not until the 18th Century that
the
white potato becomes a primary foodstuff in Europe. The history is
such
that
it argues for late adoption of the potato elsewhere in the world.
<<<
This is confusing as I try to word it, so let me try again. Here's a
supposition
(which I'm not married to, and I'm just as happy to have it
shot
down as to have it triumphantly confirmed):
1.
The Old World had recipes, techniques, or treatments that used
plantains
as the starch. >>>
But
not in Europe.
<<<
2. Potatoes were brought from the New World to the Old World. >>>
Around
1540 in Europe, but with little use before 1600 and no general
adoption
until the 18th Century. And there was probably no spread of the
potato
to areas using plantains prior to 1700.
<<<
3. People weren't sure what to do with potatoes, so after a bit of
suspicious
glaring, they started to use them in the dishes that had
originally
used plantains. >>>
Supposition.
The people who first encountered potatoes observed the natives
and
knew how to prepare them. They were brought back, but not
immediately
adopted.
By the time potatoes arrived in regions where plantains were
eaten,
the people bring them knew how to grow them and prepare them.
<<<
4. Plantain use waned while potato use waxed. >>>
I'd
like to see the evidence for this one. Plantains are now grown in
the
West
Indies, where they weren't before. Since plantains are still widely
used,
it is much more likely that potatoes were added to the diet rather
than
replacing plantains.
<<<
5. Recipes evolved as time passed, sometimes very slowly and
sometimes
rapidly.
>>>
But
only provably, if you have a series of recorded recipes.
<<<
6. Now a dish that uses potatoes COULD conceivably be made with
plantains
instead,
and it MIGHT be Period. (Documentably? Probably not, or someone
would
have surely crowed about it and done it by now, right? But it might
be
"reasonably Period" or "Peri-oid," right?) >>>
Coulda,
woulda, mighta, bunk. The known facts and time frame run against
your
supposition. I would suggest that it would fall in the category,
"Fantasy
Period."
<<<
Shoot me down fast, please, before I get really excited about trying
something
like this. Start with whether plantains are Old World, or
whether
they're a species of the Musa genus that only developed after
bananas
made it over to the New World, so I know whether this weird
thought
may have any basis whatsoever in reality.
Judith
>>>
Bananas
and plantains derive from seeded ancestors and have been
domesticated
for so long, they need human assistance to propogate. Bananas
from
the Canaries were transplanted to the New
World
by Fra Tomas Berlinga in 1516. Plantains arrive later, probably with
the
rise of the sugar plantations in the late 17th Century and the
expansion
of
the African slave trade.
Now
for the one conradictory piece of evidence; the Tudor banana. A few
years
ago, during the archeological excavation of a Tudor midden in London,
the
diggers encountered a member of genus Musa in situ. This would place
it
in
mid-16th Century London. Further investigation revealed that it is a
plantain.
Before you leap to any conclusions, let me point out that this
find
is an anomaly. It has no context of use or history, nor does it
appear
to
have any relationship to any surrounding artifacts. There is a lot
of
speculation
about where it came from with at least one group thinking it is
from
the West Indies and another Asia. My personal opinion is that it was
harvested
in the Canaries and was loaded on a fast ship for England (green
Musa
can survive about two weeks of unrefrigerated transit). There was a
market
for exotic fruit (oranges, lemons, etc.) in London and one of the
researchers
is looking into records for more information about exotic fruit
in
London.
Prior
to this find, the first known record of a Musa in London was in 1633.
One
banana stalk transported live from the West Indies, studied, and the
fruit
sold in a London grocery (owned by the man that edited and expanded
Gerard's
Herball).
Bear
Date:
Tue, 1 Sep 2009 15:17:50 -0500
From:
"Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To:
"Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at
lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Plantains: Period for Old World?
<<<
the John Gerard "The Herbal", p. 1514 to 1517, Chap. 136,
"Of Adams Apple
tree
or the West Indian Plantaine."
So it
is old world in the late 1500s. >>>
Don't
you mean, "so it is "New World" in the 1500's?"
BTW, the "Plantaine"
referred
to is a banana.
The
Portuguese are believed to have introduced African bananas into the
Canary
Islands in the mid-15th Century.
Fra
Tomas Berlinga introduced the banana into Dominica in the West Indies
in
1516.
(See Oviedo, IIRC)
IIRC,
bananas first appeared in the 1636 (I think I errored saying 1633
edition
earlier) edition of Gerard. There is a specific date of April 10,
1633
for receipt of bananas from Bermuda in London in the entry.
<<<
Wouldn't people go by taste then by starch? Does plantain taste like
a
potato?
I have understood the in "Germany" that the potatoe
replaced the
turnip
in many dishes.
De
>>>
Sounds
like a reasonable supposition.
Bear
Date:
Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:33:08 -0700
From:
lilinah at earthlink.net
To:
sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Plantains: Period for Old World?
Date:
Tue, 1 Sep 2009 12:30:29 -0500
From:
Judith Epstein <judith at ipstenu.org>
<<<
So. I know bananas are Old World... I was reading...
that
plantains are often [used] for a lot of the things that normally use
potatoes.
I'm wondering if potatoes, when first brought back from the
New
World, were used in ways that they would have normally used
plantains.
>>>
SNIP
<<<
1. The Old World had recipes, techniques, or treatments that used
plantains
as the starch.
2.
Potatoes were brought from the New World to the Old World.
3.
People weren't sure what to do with potatoes, so after a bit of
suspicious
glaring, they started to use them in the dishes that had
originally
used plantains.
4.
Plantain use waned while potato use waxed.
5.
Recipes evolved as time passed, sometimes very slowly and sometimes
rapidly.
6.
Now a dish that uses potatoes COULD conceivably be made with
plantains
instead, and it MIGHT be Period. (Documentably? Probably
not,
or someone would have surely crowed about it and done it by now,
right?
But it might be "reasonably Period" or "Peri-oid,"
right?) >>>
NO!
Not in Near or Middle Eastern recipes.
There
ARE period recipes for bananas in the Arabic language corpus.
They
are sweets and appear to be made with "sweet" bananas, of
which
there
are many varieties, even in the US where i live. I can get tiny
red
bananas, giant bananas called "pisang raja" in Indonesia,
among
others.
And since Cavendish are suffering diseases these days due
partly
to the methods of commercial cultivation, other varieties are
showing
up. I lived in Indonesia for several years and got to eat
many
different kinds of bananas.
In
the Arabic language recipe corpus, i don't remember seeing recipes
for
plantains, although with well over 1,000 recipes we have, i could
have
missed one. Still, based on my experience cooking period Near
and
Middle Eastern food (which you lack), it seems highly unlikely
that
potatoes replaced plantains in any of these recipes for specific
historical
reasons.
1.
Most New World ingredients didn't enter the Ottoman Empire - which
encompassed
most of North Africa (including Algeria, Tunisia, and
Egypt),
the Levant (now Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel-Palestine,
Iraq,
and Anatolia) - or Persia and Central Asia until the ** 18th **
century.
2. By
then the cuisines had already changed a GREAT deal, due to
wars,
immigration of peoples from one culture into areas inhabited by
another,
alterations in regional trade, etc. All this BEFORE your
precious
potatoes and tomatoes showed up.
So
potatoes, tomatoes, green (string) beans, and many many more did
not
enter 9th, or 10th, or 13th, or 15th, or 16th c. cuisines of the
Near
and Middle East.
They
entered late 18th c. cuisines, which, to reiterate, had changed
enormously
from those of 200 years earlier. I have read recipes
comparisons
between those of SCA period and those bearing the same or
related
names from the 17th, 18th, and 18th c., and the changes are
astonishing.
Many of the dearly beloved Middle Eastern dishes
familiar
to us are no older than the mid-to late 19th c. at the
earliest,
so barely more than 100 years old.
If
you want to know what potatoes and tomatoes replaced, you will
need
to study 18th c. Middle Eastern cuisine.
They
replaced nothing in 16th c. or earlier Near and Middle Eastern
cuisines.
--
Urtatim
(that's err-tah-TEEM)
the
persona formerly known as Anahita
Date:
Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:55:41 -0500
From:
Judith Epstein <judith at ipstenu.org>
To:
Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Plantains: Period for Old World?
On
Sep 1, 2009, at 1:52 PM, otsisto wrote:
<<<
Plantain are similar to bananas how would they have been exchanged
with potatoes?
Wouldn't
people go by taste then by starch? Does plantain taste like a
potato?
I have understood the in "Germany" that the potatoe
replaced
the
turnip in many dishes.
De
>>>
That's
the thing, plantains don't really have the sweetness that one
associates
with the more widely known Cavendish banana (what most US
and
Canadian folks tend to think of as the 'normal' banana). They've
got a
very faint banana taste, and yes, they do taste and feel a lot
like
potatoes.
Judith
Date:
Tue, 1 Sep 2009 16:43:22 -0500
From:
"Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To:
"Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at
lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Plantains and John Gerarde
<<<
the John Gerard "The Herbal", p. 1514 to 1517, Chap. 136,
"Of Adams
Apple
tree or the West Indian Plantaine."
So it
is old world in the late 1500s. >>>
<<
Don't you mean, "so it is "New World" in the 1500's?"
BTW, the
"Plantaine"
referred to is a banana. >>
<
There is no page 1514 to 1517 in the Gerarde Herball of 1597.
The
index in that edition points to pages 337 to 347 for all sorts of
plantains
but not the kind of plantain we are speaking of.
The
quote above seems to refer to the 1636 edition. See:
http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/33580
(page 1514 ...)
E. >
Thank
you, Emilo.
I
thought that bananas first appeared in Thomas Johnson's revision of
Gerard's
Herball. Johnson was a botanist and a merchant. It was he who
received
the banana stalk from Bermuda and later sold the fruit in his store
window
and the entry on the "West Indian Plantaine" is probably
all his.
I've
got both a 1633 and a 1636 publication date for that edition, so
perhaps
Johnna can help settle that diswcrepency.
Bear
Date:
Tue, 1 Sep 2009 18:14:10 -0500
From:
"Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To:
"Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at
lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] plantain, bananas, herbals
<<<
I have eaten bananas but I guess I have never ever seen a plantain
fruit
in my
life ...
What
is the modern scientific name of the plant we are looking after
and
what might have been the names used in the early English, Italian,
Latin,
German, Dutch ... what else? ... herbals?
E.
>>>
Musa
paradisiaca is the plantain or cooking banana. Musa acuminata is the
eating
banana AKA banana. In earlier taxonomies, the banana may appear as
Musa
sapientium.
Bear
Date:
Tue, 1 Sep 2009 18:49:14 -0500
From:
Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>
To:
sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Plantains: Period for Old World?
Bear
has given a good summary of the banana/plantains questions and
then
said:
>
You might want to check out bananas in the Florilegium.
A
more complete history of the banana and its current perils
(the
Cavendish could be commercially extinct within 30 years), can be
found
in this book:
Banana:
The Fate of the Fruit That Changed the World
Koeppel,
Dan
ISBN:
1-59463-038-0
Hudson
Street Press
New
York
From
Publishers Weekly
The
world's most humble fruit has caused inordinate damage to nature
and
man, and Popular Science journalist Koeppel (To See Every Bird on
Earth)
embarks on an intelligent, chock-a-block sifting through the
havoc.
Seedless, sexless bananas evolved from a wild inedible fruit
first
cultivated in Southeast Asia, and was probably the apple that
got
Adam and Eve in trouble in the Garden of Eden. From there the
fruit
traveled to Africa and across the Pacific, arriving on U.S.
shores
probably with the Europeans in the 15th century. However, the
history
of the banana turned sinister as American businessmen caught
on to
the marketability of this popular, highly perishable fruit then
grown
in Jamaica. Thanks to the building of the railroad through Costa Rica
by the turn of the century, the United Fruit company flourished
in
Central America, its tentacles extending into all facets of
government
and industry, toppling banana republics and igniting labor
wars.
Meanwhile, the Gros Michel variety was annihilated by a fungus
called
Panama disease (Sigatoka), which today threatens the favored
Cavendish,
as Koeppel sounds the alarm, shuttling to genetics-
engineering
labs from Honduras to Belgium. His sage, informative study poses the
question fairly whether it's time for consumers to reverse a century
of strife and exploitation epitomized by the purchase of one
banana.
(Jan.)
Copyright
? Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier
Inc.
All rights reserved.
After
reading this book, well I'm almost through, I now understand the term
"banana republic" and the justified opinion of many in
South and
Central
America about the United States and its politics in favor of
American
company exploitation, including Reagan-era meddling.
Stefan
--------
THLord
Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
Mark
S. Harris Austin, Texas
Date:
Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:46:53 -0700
From:
David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
To:
Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Plantains: Period for Old World?
I
don't believe I have seen any period recipes using plantains.
Al-Warraq
has a banana recipe that I'm tempted to try at our next
cooking
workshop, and it's conceivable that he might use the same
word
for bananas and plantains--it's a dessert, bananas layered with
thin
flatbread and sugar, drenched with rosewater, and baked
underneath
a chicken (to get the drippings).
The
Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti (14th c. Italian) has a
reference
to bananas and a picture. It's clear that neither the
author
of the text, which is itself based on a much earlier Arabic
text,
nor the artist has ever seen one. The text does say that they
are
known in Sicily, however (as well as Cyprus and the Holy Land).
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
Date:
Wed, 2 Sep 2009 03:18:09 -0500
From:
"otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>
To:
"Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at
lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Plantain, herbals, John Gerarde
The
John Gerard herbal has both plantago and musa.
Gerard
does say that his first intro to plantain was in pickled form. Later
he writes that it could be eaten with ginger or spices.
-----Original
Message-----
Is
the "plantain" mentioned in one or more of the various 16th
century
herbals?
They often mention culinary uses.
There
is A catalogue of plants cultivated in the garden of John Gerard
http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/30619
E.
-----
Plantain
shows up in the herbals, but they are often talking about ragwort
(Plantago) rather than bananas (Musa).
Bear
Date:
Wed, 2 Sep 2009 07:00:46 -0500
From:
"Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To:
"Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at
lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] plantain, bananas, herbals
<<<
Because the plantain had to make it from Asia to Africa. There are
two ways of doing that: going through the Near East, or going by sea.
>>>
Bananas
and plantains probably arrived in Africa via Madagascar and were
transferred
inland into the Congo and from there to West Africa.
<<<
The presence of bananas in the Qur'an argues for them going through
the
Near
East. >>>
Bananas
and plantains in Africa predate the Qur'an by at least 1000 years.
It is
believed they entered the African continent via water migraation
between
SE Asia and Madagascar. There is some speculation that the Arabs
encountered
bananas through the slave trade in the Horn of Africa, however,
I
would point out that Arabs have been trading with South India since
at
least
the 2nd Century BCE. The Qur'an reference is very late in the
history
of
Arabs and bananas having been written in the 7th Century.
Bear
Date:
Wed, 2 Sep 2009 08:47:46 -0500
From:
"Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To:
"Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at
lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] plantain, bananas, herbals
<<<
According to the Big Black Book of Doom, which I know is unreliable
about
a lot
of things but should provide at least a starting point for looking
for
other sources of information, all species of the Musa genus are
indigenous
to the tropical region of Southeast Asia. It's thought (again,
citing
Wikipedia) that Portuguese Franciscan friars are responsible for
bringing
the plantain to the Americas. FROM Africa.
So,
if that is accurate information (and yes, I know that's a BIG IF),
that
argues that plantains are Period for Southeast Asia, Africa, and the
cute
little territory that lies between them (Near East). >>>
<<
I don't follow that. The are period for Southeast Asia. They may be
period
for
Africa, if the friars brought them to the Americas from there before
1600.
But how does that make them period for the Near East?
Incidentally,
I'm not sure how (or if) people in this discussion are
distinguishing
"near east" from "middle east." I think of them
as roughly
synonymous.
--
David/Cariadoc
>>
You're
looking at Wikipedia error and a failure to more thoroughly research
the
subject.
Bananas
and plantains are believed to have entered Africa via sea migration
from
SE Asia to Madagascar, then been spread through the Congo to West
Africa.
The Portuguese are believed to have found bananas in West Africa
and
transplanted them to the Canary Islands. The Canary Islands were
seized
by
Spain in the 15th Century. Banana shoots were transplanted to Santo
Domingo
in 1516 by the Spanish Fra Tomas de Berlanga (I've also seen it
spelled
Berlinga, but the Catholic Encyclopedia uses Berlanga). Fra Tomas
was a
Dominican and he is specifically credited with this in Oviedo's work
on
the West Indies (1523 or 1526, IIRC).
The
assumption that bananas came to Africa from the Near East is easily
dispelled
by recent archeological work that has pushed back the existence of
bananas
in Southern Africa from 3rd Century BCE to 8th Century BCE (if I
correctly
understood the dating technique). The locale reinforces the sea
migration
theory.
Bear
Date:
Sat, 5 Sep 2009 08:11:32 -0500
From:
"Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To:
"Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at
lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Plantain, herbals,
-----
Original Message -----
From:
"otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>
*I
had assumed that when I said SCA period that it was specifying
European,
and
Mediterranean with the possible inclusion of middle and far East.
To my
understanding plantain musa originated in Malaysia and India and
moved
along
with the banana and yam westward.
I
found one research that says that hybridizing of the banana and
plantain
has
been going on since before the middle ages and that they had found
that
the
two original Musas from which all musa hybrids come from are Musa
balbisiana
and Musa acuminata.
In
their research they had found that quite a few horticulturalist and
herbals
misnamed, wrong identification or lumped together the banana and
plantian.
********************
The
earliest evidence of banana domestication is found in Papua New
Guinea
and
dates from 6000-5000 BCE. The cultivated bananas (those requiring
human
intervention)
may have begun there or have been developed from bananas from
New
Guinea being spread through Indonesia, Malaysia and into SE Asia.
All
cultivated Musa (as opposed to all Musa hybrids) are hybrids between
M
acuminata
and M. balbisiana. The original hybridization was natural and
took
place well before the Middle Ages. These hybrids are diploidal,
triploidal
and tetraploidal, meaning they have two, three or four sets of
chromosomes.
For example, you find a Musa taxonomic name followed by (ABB),
you
are looking at a triploidal hybrid with one set of M. acuminata
chromosomes
and two sets of M. balbisiana chromosomes. The eating or
dessert
bananas fall into the (AAA) group while the rest are generally
considered
cooking bananas. For our purposes, we can probably ignore the
tetraploidal
hybrids as modern.
Prior
to Linneaus (1737), there was no taxonomic distinction between
bananas
and
plantains, which is why herbal information on the cultivated bananas
can
be
very confusing. Linnean taxonomy places the cultivated bananas as
Musa
paradisiaca
with the eating bananas being M. paradisiaca ssp. sapientium.
Modernly,
eating bananas, being triploidal M. acuminata, are considered to
be M.
acuminata although the Linnean taxonomy has also been retained.
Bear
Date:
Wed, 2 Sep 2009 12:33:57 -0700
From:
lilinah at earthlink.net
To:
sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] plantain, bananas, herbals
Ranvaig
wrote:
<<<
A savory dish with a banana type fruit sounds more like plantain. Is
there
evidence that sweet bananas are meant? This is out of my area
of
expertise, but are early bananas as sweet as current ones? >>>
If
you are referring to the dish Cariadoc mentioned of cooking a
chicken
so its juices drip onto a tray of bananas and ruqaq (very
thin
flatbread), i addressed this is a reply, mentioning other
recipes
for this dish, Judhaba.
A
cooking tray is lined with flatbread and topped with something
sweet,
often something toothachingly sweet: fanid = taffy made of
sugar,
sometimes with nuts; crushed nuts and sugar; lauzinaj which i
didn't
describe but have discussed on this list - it is some sort of
wrapper
described in poetry of its day as gossamer as a grasshopper's
wing
filled with crushed nuts and sugar. Sometimes the sweets are
topped
with another layer of ruqaq, but not necessarily.
While
the recipes may not discuss how the dish is eaten, the humorous
stories
of its day that i mentioned do describe how the roasted
chicken
is eaten at the same time with the dripping-enriched bread
and
taffy or other very sugary sweet. One recipe calls for bananas,
the
bananas are coated with batter and fried until crisp and golden.
From
experience, i know this brings out the sweetness of the bananas.
So
comparing other recipes for Judhaba and the cooking method for the
banana
version, i am quite convinced that sweet bananas were used.
--
Urtatim
(that's err-tah-TEEM)
the
persona formerly known as Anahita
Date:
Wed, 2 Sep 2009 15:51:30 -0700
From:
David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
To:
Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] plantain, bananas, herbals
<<<
A cooking tray is lined with flatbread and topped with something
sweet,
often something toothachingly sweet: fanid = taffy made of
sugar,
sometimes with nuts; crushed nuts and sugar; lauzinaj which i
didn't
describe but have discussed on this list - it is some sort of
wrapper
described in poetry of its day as gossamer as a
grasshopper's
wing filled with crushed nuts and sugar. Sometimes the
sweets
are topped with another layer of ruqaq, but not necessarily. >>>
Note
that lauzinaj can also mean just the crushed nuts and sugar,
without
the wrapper, which might make more sense here.
Speaking
of which, I did some experimenting on the wrapper--cooked
from
a batter as thin as milk, on a pan that is "greased" with
beeswax--a
while ago. I can get something that fits the grasshopper's
wing
description, but it's brittle, so won't wrap things. I can get
something
flexible, but it's basically a thin crepe.
I've
been wondering if perhaps the solution is to make the brittle
version,
damp it down to make it flexible, wrap the filling in it,
then
let it try. But I haven't tried that yet.
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
Date:
Thu, 27 May 2010 15:31:30 -0700 (PDT)
From:
emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
To:
sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject:
[Sca-cooks] banana
While
surfing for something completely different, I stumbled upon this
article:
http://web.fu-berlin.de/phin/phin1/p1t1.htm
For
those of you with a basic command of German and Romance languages,
there _might_ be something to add to the history of bananas and its
near relatives.
E.
From:
"emma at huskers.unl.edu"
<emma at HUSKERS.UNL.EDU>
Date:
July 14, 2010 4:12:12 PM CDT
To:
CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject:
[CALONTIR] bananas
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/370550.stm
Older
than I thought (Mid 15th C, not early 16th) and in a trash heap, not
a toilet.
And
the article suggests that they may actually have been common.
Jane
Date:
Wed, 14 Jul 2010 22:09:26 -0500
From:
"Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To:
"Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at
lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Another, older, banana found in London
This
is a find that has been previously discussed on the list (originally
in
2001),
rather than a new discovery. The 1999 date is important because it
is
close to the time of the actual dig. Several years after the
discovery,
the
banana was genetically determined to be a plantain (if memory
serves).
The
article pre-dates the lab work, which means that the author only had
access
to the tentative identification and further research negated the
probability
of it being a sweet banana.
The
poster on the Calontir list makes the error of assuming the plantain
was
deposited
in the mid-15th Century. The site is a midden which, IIRC, was a
fish
market with live tanks, that was abandoned in the 15th Century and
became
a trash dump. The plantain was located at a level of the midden
placing
it in the early to middle 16th Century and it was determined not to
be
a more modern intrusive artifact. Hmmm, "fish ponds in
Southwark" is the
article
description of the site.
One
of the people on the project started a paper on exotic fruit being
marketed
during the Tudor dynasty, but I haven't heard anything more about
it.
Bear
-----Original
Message-----
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/370550.stm
Older
than I thought (Mid 15th C, not early 16th) and in a trash heap,
not
a toilet.
And
the article suggests that they may actually have been common.
Jane
Date:
Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:00:59 -0500
From:
Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>
To:
Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Another, older, banana found in London
Thank
you Bear for the update on the genetic testing of this "banana".
I hadn't heard of it testing out to be a plantain.
But
even if it is a plantain, I'm still wondering how common it was in
England or the continent. And if it was, what happened? Plantains
aren't very common in the Europe or the US now. Did the Cavendish
banana drive off all the competitors? Afterall, you can cook bananas
or eat them raw, which you can't do with a plantain. And this
particular banana is sweeter.
In
case folks aren't aware of it, almost all commercial bananas are
identical, genetic clones of the same asexual plant. Mankind has so
modified the plant that it cannot reproduce by seeds. Which is why
commercial banana crops are in danger of being wiped out whenever a
pest manages to adapt to the environment of the plant.
Very
interesting book:
Banana:
The Fate of the Fruit That Changed the World
Koeppel,
Dan
ISBN:
1-59463-038-0
304
pages, 2008
"From
Publishers Weekly
The
world's most humble fruit has caused inordinate damage to nature and
man, and Popular Science journalist Koeppel (To See Every Bird on
Earth) embarks on an intelligent, chock-a-block sifting through the
havoc. Seedless, sexless bananas evolved from a wild inedible fruit
first cultivated in Southeast Asia, and was probably the apple that
got Adam and Eve in trouble in the Garden of Eden. From there the
fruit traveled to Africa and across the Pacific, arriving on U.S.
shores probably with the Europeans in the 15th century. However, the
history of the banana turned sinister as American businessmen caught
on to the marketability of this popular, highly perishable fruit then
grown in Jamaica. Thanks to the building of the railroad through
Costa Rica by the turn of the century, the United Fruit company
flourished in Central America, its tentacles extending into all
facets of government and industry, toppling banana republics and
igniting labor wars. Meanwhile, the Gros Michel variety was
annihilated by a fungus called Panama disease (Sigatoka), which today
threatens the favored Cavendish, as Koeppel sounds the alarm,
shuttling to genetics-engineering labs from Honduras to Belgium. His
sage, informative study poses the question fairly whether it's time
for consumers to reverse a century of strife and exploitation
epitomized by the purchase of one banana. (Jan.)
Copyright
Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All
rights reserved.
Review
"Clear,
engaging…admirable…part historical narrative and
part pop-science adventure."
-San
Francisco Chronicle --This text refers to the Paperback edition."
Stefan
--------
THLord
Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
Mark
S. Harris Austin, Texas
Date:
Thu, 15 Jul 2010 22:20:01 -0500
From:
"Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To:
"Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at
lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Another, older, banana found in London
<<<
Thank you Bear for the update on the genetic testing of this
"banana". I
hadn't
heard of it testing out to be a plantain. >>>
Take
this with a grain of salt. It was from a little news squibb I can
no
longer locate. It might be interesting to see if the Museum of London
has
released a paper(s) on the finds in the Southwark dig.
<<<
But even if it is a plantain, I'm still wondering how common it was
in
England
or the continent. And if it was, what happened? Plantains aren't
very
common in the Europe or the US now. Did the Cavendish banana drive
off
all
the competitors? Afterall, you can cook bananas or eat them raw,
which
you
can't do with a plantain. And this particular banana is sweeter. >>>
Not
very common. About the closest source for bananas and plantains is
the
Canary Islands. With fair winds, a fast ship can make the passage
from
the
Canaries to London in 10 to 12 days (or so I have been lead to
believe).
Without
refrigeration, freshly cut bananas last about 14 days, which
suggests
that probably were a small part of any cargo and would only be
carried
on the fastest ships. This in turn suggests that bananas were
likely
uncommon in most of Europe. When the banana trade took off in the
19th
Century, the most common banana was the Gros Michel (hope I didn't
butcher
the spelling). This was replaced by the Cavendish banana, IIRC,
because
the Cavendish travels and stores better.
<<<
In case folks aren't aware of it, almost all commercial bananas are
identical,
genetic clones of the same asexual plant. Mankind has so modified
the
plant that it cannot reproduce by seeds. Which is why commercial
banana
crops
are in danger of being wiped out whenever a pest manages to adapt to
the
environment of the plant.
Stefan
>>>
The
sweet banana is one of the oldest hybrids in the world, extending
back
over 5,000 years. We haven't any idea when or where the
hybridization,
but
the evidence suggests that man's cultivation of the banana began
before
the
developement of continuous agriculture.
Bear
Date:
Mon, 19 Jul 2010 11:59:34 -0700
From:
David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
To:
Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
[Sca-cooks] Banana Recipe
With
all the posts on bananas, I didn't notice
any
period recipes for them, perhaps because most
of
the posters are from barbarian lands on the
fringes
of the civilized world, where such things
are
more rumor than ingredient. My memory is that
the
illustration in the _Four Seasons of the
House
of Cerruti_ suggests that the artist had
never
seen one.
---
A
recipe for Judhaba of bananas by Ibn al Mahdi
Al-Warraq
p. 375
Peel
the bananas and set them aside. Spread a
ruqaqa
(thin round of bread) in the pan and
spread
a layer of bananas over it. Sprinkle the
banana
layer with pure sugar, and spread anotehr
ruqaqa
all over it. Repeat the layering of
banana,
sugar, and ruqaqa until the pan is full.
Pour
enough rose water to drench the layered
ingredients,
[put the pan in a hot tannur,]
suspend
a fine chicken over it, [and let it
roast]
God willing.
Bananas:
40 ounces. Ruqaqa: 10 oz iranian
thin
bread Sugar: _ c _ water 2T rose
water
Oil
the bottom of the pan. Make four layers of
sliced
(or mashed) bananas sprinkled with sugar,
alternating
with thin bread, pour in rose water
on
top. Arrange with the chicken on a wooden spit
above
the layers so the drippings fall on them.
Cook
for about 1-2 hours at 325?.
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
Date:
Mon, 19 Jul 2010 17:28:59 -0700
From:
David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
To:
Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana Recipe
We
have done it. It is good. I did wonder,
looking
over the original, if I wasn't using too
little
rosewater to fit the description.
<<<
Have you tried this recipe? With so much
rosewater,
is the dish overly flowery or does
the
long cooking time cook off most of the rose
flavor?
Grace
>>>
--
David
Friedman
www.daviddfriedman.com
daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Date:
Mon, 19 Jul 2010 21:30:38 -0700
From:
David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
To:
Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana Recipe
>
Are we talking eating bananas or plantains?
The
translation says bananas and that's how we
did
it--whether the translation is correct I do
not
know.
Date:
Tue, 20 Jul 2010 06:15:12 -0400
From:
Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To:
Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana Recipe
On
Jul 20, 2010, at 5:09 AM, yaini0625 at yahoo.com wrote:
<<<
Have you discussed the origins of bananas? I was under the
impression
that bananas or platains were New World or Malaysian in
origins.
Aelina
>>>
http://www.enotes.com/food-encyclopedia/banana-plantain
Encyclopedia
of Food & Culture > Banana and Plantain
"Many
wild banana diploids and triploids are still abundant throughout
southeastern
Asia, with a primary area of origin in Malaysia and Papua
New
Guinea, while most of the plantains originated in India and the
Philippines.
In any event, both spread quickly to other tropical and
subtropical
regions of the world. The Fe'i bananas evolved throughout
the
Pacific islands from Indonesia to the Marquesas and still remain
closely
confined to the area.
The
main recognized milestones of these movements are:
c.
500 C.E. ?
Introduction
to Africa from Indonesia (via Madagascar)
c.
1000 C.E. ?
Distribution
throughout Polynesia and introduction to Mediterranean
areas
during Muslim expansion
1300s?1400s
?
Introduction
to the Canary Islands from West Africa
1516
?
First
recorded introduction to the New World (Santo Domingo) from the
Canary
Islands"
Johnnae
Date:
Tue, 20 Jul 2010 07:00:21 -0500
From:
"Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To:
<yaini0625 at yahoo.com>, "Cooks within the SCA"
<sca-cooks
at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana Recipe
<<<
Have you discussed the origins of bananas? I was under the impression
that
bananas
or platains were New World or Malaysian in origins.
Aelina
>>>
Bananas
are Old World (probabaly SE Asian) in origin. Pliny notes that they
were
first encountered by Alexander's armies in India in 325 BCE, where
they
were
part of the Indian diet. Oviedo notes that bananas were transplanted
from
the Canaries to the New World by Fra Tomas de Berlanga in 1517.
Bear
Date:
Tue, 20 Jul 2010 07:24:10 -0500
From:
"Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To:
"Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at
lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana Recipe
<<<
c. 500 C.E. ?
Introduction
to Africa from Indonesia (via Madagascar)
c.
1000 C.E. ?
Distribution
throughout Polynesia and introduction to Mediterranean
areas
during Muslim expansion
1300s?1400s
?
Introduction
to the Canary Islands from West Africa
1516
?
First
recorded introduction to the New World (Santo Domingo) from the
Canary
Islands"
Johnnae
>>>
They
can push that 500 CE date back to about 800 BCE and probably further.
Archeological
excavation has demonstrated that banana cultivation in Africa
has
been around a lot longer than previously thought.
The
introduction of bananas into the Canary Islands is probably between
1425,
when the Portuguese claimed the islands and 1479, when the Spanish
landed
to take the islands from Portugal.
1516.
For some reason I keep remembering the date as 1517, although 1516
is
correct.
Bear
Date:
Tue, 20 Jul 2010 08:35:53 -0400
From:
Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To:
Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana Recipe
This
is from Encyclopedia of Food & Culture which is now online. I
have no idea
when
the entry was written. They may have been going with the earliest
accepted
date
for the introduction. The articles are researched and footnoted. Well
you can call it up and see for yourself.
It's
very nice anyway to have the Encyclopedia of Food & Culture
online
as it was a very expensive set.
Johnna
On
Jul 20, 2010, at 8:24 AM, Terry Decker wrote:
<<
c. 500 C.E. ?
Introduction
to Africa from Indonesia (via Madagascar)
Johnnae
>>
<<<
They can push that 500 CE date back to about 800 BCE and probably
further.
Archeological excavation has demonstrated that banana
cultivation
in Africa has been around a lot longer than previously
thought.
>>>
Date:
Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:08:16 -0700
From:
lilinah at earthlink.net
To:
sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana Recipe
Angharad
wrote, re Judhaba of bananas by Ibn al Mahdi:
<<<
Hmmm, I don't like bananas but I can still see that would be kind of
tasty.
How
necessary is the chicken? I mean could you get satisfactory results
by
basting
by warm oil or butter? >>>
The
chicken hanging as it roasts over the platter of something sweet,
into
which the chicken juices drip, is essential to any Judhaba.
Without
it, it isn't really judhaba. There are quite a few other
judhaba
recipes, all involving a chicken hanging roasting over a tray
of
something sweet, Lauzinaj (crushed and sweetened almonds wrapped
in
pastry) for example.
Then
the chicken and the sweet are eaten together.
Charles
Perry has an amusing essay about this in Medieval Arabic Cookery.
--
Urtatim
[that's err-tah-TEEM]
the
persona formerly known as Anahita
Date:
Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:23:53 -0700
From:
lilinah at earthlink.net
To:
sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana Recipe
Stefan
wrote:
<<<
Master Cariadoc related a banana recipe and his redaction:
A
recipe for Judhaba of bananas by Ibn al Mahdi
Al-Warraq
p. 375
I'm
assuming that the spit is in front of the fire with the layered
bananas
and bread underneath this. So it gets the drippings and some
of
the general heat from the fire, but not being over coals or a
fire
doesn't really bake. Or does it get browned from being this
close
to the fire? Or am I wrong about it not being over coals? In
the
latter case, it would seem to cook much faster than the chicken
and
risk being burned.
Hmmm.
But the original *is* is an oven (tannur), right? So maybe it
is
meant to get 'baked' more than it would be sitting in front of
the
fire. >>>
It
isn't spit roasted. It is cooked in an oven, with the chicken
suspended
over the tray of sweet stuff. It is, in its own odd way,
sort
of the medieval Arabic world equivalent to the much later
English
roast beef and Yorkshire pudding. Cariadoc did what he did
because
few of us have tannurs in our homes. One can get tannurs for
the
home now, in the US and UK, but one was quite a bit more
expensive
than i could afford.
<<<
Also, I'm not familiar with this cookbook, although we've probably
discussed
it here before. Where is it from and when? >>>
Abu
Muhammad al-Muzaffar ibn Nasr ibn Sayyar al-Warraq of Baghdad
compiled
a cookbook, al-Kitab al-Tabikh, Book of Dishes, in the 10th
century,
including recipes from the 9th and 10th centuries, as well
as
info on poems on food, etiquette, humors, table talk, etc.
It
was published in December 2007 by Brill, a scholarly publisher in
the
Netherlands, as translated and with commentary and glossaries by
Nawal
Nasrullah as Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens: Ibn Sayyar
al-Warraq's
Tenth-century Baghdadi Cookbook (in the series: Islamic
History
and Civilization).
I
have used recipes from it, and it has been discussed on this list a
number
of times, before and after its publication.
Some
time ago, Charles Perry translated a few of its recipes, which
Cariadoc
included in... the Miscellany, i think... or else in
Cariadoc's
most useful collection of cookbooks.
<<<
It sounds interesting. I don't know where I could find this rugaga
though.
I wonder if flour tortillas or perhaps pits bread might make
a
reasonable substitute. >>>
Lavosh
is more appropriate. I have sometimes used white flour
tortillas,
but they are a bit different from ruqaq. Pita would be
wrong
wrong wrong.
--
Urtatim
[that's err-tah-TEEM]
the
persona formerly known as Anahita
Date:
Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:50:30 -0700
From:
David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
To:
Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana Recipe
Master
Cariadoc related a banana recipe and his redaction:
<<<
A recipe for Judhaba of bananas by Ibn al Mahdi
Al-Warraq
p. 375 >>>
Unfortunately,
it looks like the digestifier didn't like some of the
fractions.
<<<
Bananas: 40 ounces. Ruqaqa: 10 oz iranian
thin
bread Sugar: _ c _ water 2T rose
water
>>>
Can
you tell us again how much sugar and water you used?
==============
Half
a cup of each. But going back to the recipe and notes, I think
the
water is a mistake--a confusion from two different tries. The
first
time it was done at a cooking workshop, I think the person who
did
it diluted the rose water with water in order to drench without
too
much flavor, which doesn't fit the original instructions. The
second
time we used more rose water and no water. So the recipe
shouldn't
have water in it at all, just at least 2T of rose water.
<<<
I'm assuming that the spit is in front of the fire with the layered
bananas
and bread underneath this. So it gets the drippings and some
of
the general heat from the fire, but not being over coals or a
fire
doesn't really bake. Or does it get browned from being this
close
to the fire? Or am I wrong about it not being over coals? In
the
latter case, it would seem to cook much faster than the chicken
and
risk being burned. >>>
We
did it in the oven, which I believe is how they did it.
<<<
Hmmm. But the original *is* is an oven (tannur), right? So maybe it
is
meant to get 'baked' more than it would be sitting in front of
the
fire.
Also,
I'm not familiar with this cookbook, although we've probably
discussed
it here before. Where is it from and when? >>>
Tenth
century middle-eastern. Big. The translation came out a few years
ago.
<<<
It sounds interesting. I don't know where I could find this rugaga
though.
I wonder if flour tortillas or perhaps pits bread might make
a
reasonable substitute. >>>
We
used the very thin bread you can get
at Iranian grocery stores--I
don't
remember its name, but it seemed like the nearest equivalent we
could
think of. Much thinner than pita.
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
Date:
Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:53:29 -0700
From:
David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
To:
Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana Recipe
<<<
Hmmm, I don't like bananas but I can still see that would be kind of
tasty.
How
necessary is the chicken? I mean could you get satisfactory results
by
basting
by warm oil or butter?
Angharad
>>>
Our
second try we used chicken fat and chicken broth instead of the
chicken.
My memory is that it wasn't bad, but probably not as good as
actually
roasting a chicken over it.
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
Date:
Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:56:25 -0700
From:
David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
To:
Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Banana Recipe
<<<
Then the chicken and the sweet are eaten together.
Charles
Perry has an amusing essay about this in Medieval Arabic Cookery.
--
Urtatim
[that's err-tah-TEEM]
the
persona formerly known as Anahita >>>
When
I first encountered a judhaba recipe, a very long time ago, my
ward
Miriam proposed that it was a chicken timer--in the absence of
clocks,
you knew when the dish was done by when the chicken was done.
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
Date:
Tue, 20 Jul 2010 16:32:06 -0700
From:
David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
To:
Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Arabic cookery re: chicken dripping onto
other
foods...
<<<
Having a chicken roasting above other foods, as
mentioned
in the banana dish really makes this
item
look perfect. Of course it is designed to
keep
the chicken out of its drippings and crisp all
around
as well as to roast vegetables under, but
it
would be ideal for the Arabic sweets recipes aswell.
http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/all-clad-ultimate-stainless-steel-chicken-roaster/
Yes,
it is a bit pricey, but I'm now tempted to get one. >>>
We
got the same effect by using a large oval Le Creuset pan, sticking
a
skewer through the chicken, and resting the ends of the skewer on
the
edge of the pan at its ends. Banana etc. in the pan.
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
Date:
Wed, 21 Jul 2010 10:03:41 -0700
From:
lilinah at earthlink.net
To:
sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Author's Name (was: Banana Recipe)
Guillaume
wrote:
<<<
In the discussion concerning the banana recipe, the name of the
author
was
given as Ibn al Mahdi Al-Warraq. However, in the follow-up it was
given
as Abu Muhammad al-Muzaffar ibn Nasr ibn Sayyar al-Warraq. I am
familiar
with the latter and have not found a reference to the former
online.
I am a little confused on this point. Are these the same
person,
different people, or the result of a typo? Was the original
citation
from al-Kitab al-Tabikh (The Book of Dishes)?
Will
the real al-Warraq please stand up? >>>
Actually,
Cariadoc wrote:
<<<
A recipe for Judhaba of bananas by Ibn al Mahdi
Al-Warraq
p. 375 >>>
This
means the original recipe was from ibn al-Mahdi.
His
recipe was included in the vast compendium collected by ibn
Sayyar
al-Warraq.
In
this book many of the recipes are attributed (although this
doesn't
mean the attributions are always correct...). Nasrallah has a
section
with information about nearly everyone mentioned by al-Warraq.
The
period from which this book comes was something of a golden age
for
science, literature, philosophy, art, music, ... and gourmet
cuisine
(the 'Abbasids went downhill not too long after, although
they
remained nominally the caliphs). There were gatherings of
wealthy
and important men (women were generally excluded, as the
Greeks
did) who cooked (or had cooked for them) wonderful dishes,
during
which they spent much time not only eating but talking about
food,
composing poems (many included in al-Warraq's compendium),
discussing
philosophy, etc.
Among
these men was the son of a Caliph, Ibrahim ibn al-Mahdi, who
was
an 'Abbasid prince, famed as a gourmet, poet, and singer, after
whom
dishes were named, some apparently actually from him, others to
share
in the glow of his name, such as Ibrahimiyya. He was a brother
of
the famed Caliph Harun al-Rashid (r. 786-809) and both are
mentioned
in stories in The Thousand Nights and a Night (which are
fictional).
--
Urtatim
[that's err-tah-TEEM]
the
persona formerly known as Anahita
Date:
Wed, 28 Jul 2010 07:15:30 -0400
From:
Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To:
Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
[Sca-cooks] bananas
Ok
for your files and for curiosity sake, there are 23 references to
banana
or bananas in EEBO-TCP.
Here
are some of the more interesting selections:
from
1597
Chap.
1. Of the situation of the Royall Cittie of the Kingdome of
Congo.
Other
fruites there are, which they call Banana and we verily thinke
to
be the Muses of Aegypt and Soria, sauing that in those countreyes
they
growe to be as bigge as trees, but here they cut them yearely, to
the
end they may beare the better, The fruit is very sweet in smell,
and
of good nourishment. page 111
Lopes,
Duarte.
A
report of the kingdome of Congo, a region of Africa. And of the
countries
that border rounde about the same... Drawen out of the
writinges
and discourses of Odoardo Lopez a Portingall, by Philippo
Pigafetta.
Translated out of Italian by Abraham Hartwell. 1597.
---
from
1633
CHAP.
136. Of Adams Apple tree, or the West-Indian Plantaine.
Musae
fructus exactior Icon. An exacter figure of the Plantaine fruit.
The
Place.
This
admirable tree groweth in Egypt, Cyprus, and Syria, neere vnto a
chiefe
city there called Alep, which we call Aleppo, and also by
Tripolis,
not far from thence: it groweth also in Cana|ra, Decan,
Guzarate,
and Bengala, places of the East Indies.
The
Time.
From
the root of this tree shooteth forth yong springs or shoots,
which
the people take vp and plant for the increase in the Spring of
the
yeare. The leaues wither away in September, as is aboue said.
The
Names.
It
is called Musa by such as trauell to Aleppo: by the Arabians, Musa
Maum:
in Syria, Mose: The Grecians and Christians which inhabit Syria,
and
the Iewes also, suppose it to be that tree of whose fruit Adam did
taste;
which others thinke to be a ridiculous fable: of Pliny, Opuntia.
It
is called in the East Indies (as at Malauar where it also groweth)
Palan:
in Malayo, Pican: and in that part of Africa which we call
Ginny,
Bananas: in English, Adams Apple tree.
Gerard,
John, 1545-1612., Johnson, Thomas, d. 1644. The herball or
Generall
historie of plantes. Gathered by Iohn Gerarde of London
Master
in Chirurgerie very much enlarged and amended by Thomas Iohnson
citizen
and apothecarye of London. 1633
---
OED
lists this as the earliest for the fruit.
1563
Garcia de Orta Simples e Drogues 93 b, Tambem ha estes figos em
Guin?,
chamam lhe bananas;
----
Plantain
turns up much earlier in the OED as it was the name of some
herbs
(greater plantain with broad flat leaves) and a form known as
long
plantain. There was also a bastard plantain.
Here
are some 16th century mentions. (There are some dating back
much
earlier.)
1516
Grete Herbal cccxliv, Plantayne or weybrede..is an herbe that ye
greke
call arnoglosse. It is called also..grete plantayne, and groweth
in
moyst places & playne feldes;
ribwort
p., P. lanceolata.
1516
Grete Herbal cccxlv, Delanceolata... Longe plantayne is good
agaynst
fystales, yf the iuce be put in them dyuers dayes, it healeth
and
sleeth them.
1592
Shaks. Rom. & Jul; i. ii.
52
Romeo.
Your Plantan leafe is excellent for that.
Ben.
For what I pray thee?
Romeo.
For your broken shin.
--There's
also a meaning associated with plane trees.
Lastly
is the definition "tree-like tropical herbaceous plant (Musa
paradisiaca)
closely allied to the Banana (M. sapientum)" and the
fruit
of this plant.
1555
Eden Decades ii. 197 (tr. of Italian version, 1534, of Oviedo's
Spanish,
1526) There are also certeine plantes which the christians
caul
Platani.
1555
Eden Decades 197 This cluster owght to bee taken from the
plant,
when any one of the Platans begynne to appere yelowe.
1589
Parke tr. Mendoza's Hist. China (Hakl. Soc.) II. 330 Orange
trees,
siders, limas, plantanos, and palmas.
1604
E. G[rimstone] D'Acosta's Hist. Indies iv. (Hakl. Soc.) I. 241
The
first that shall be needefulle to treate of is the Plantain, or
Plantano,
as the vulgar call it... The reason why the Spaniards call
it
platano (for the Indians had no such name) was, as in other trees,
for
that they have found some resemblance of the one with the other,
even
as they called some fruites prunes, pines, and cucumbers, being
far
different from those which are called by those names in Castille.
1634
Sir T. Herbert Trav. 183 Bananas or Plantanes.
Johnnae
Date:
Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:13:52 -0700
From:
"Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>
To:
Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Bananas
Just
wanted to say, when I lived in Hawaii, there was a banana tree in
our
yard, next to the driveway. You HAVE TO pick the bananas while they
are
unripe, and then let them ripen. If you let them ripen on the tree,
they
split, and then they stink and attract all manner of flying and
crawling
things. And they're heavy and will pull the tree over into the
driveway.
I was still learning to drive, and hit the banana tree more
than
once backing out. Ick.
Liutgard
Date:
Fri, 30 Jul 2010 09:03:59 -0400
From:
Sam Wallace <guillaumedep at gmail.com>
To:
sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Bananas
"Bananas
are cut just before ripening and shipped refrigerated. Once
they
come out of refrigeration you have roughly two weeks to sell
them.
That is why bananas only became a widespread commodity in the
late
19th Century."
Modern
methods for controlling the ripening of fruits, including
bananas,
revolve around control of ethylene. Ethylene control is used
in
conjunction with humidity and temperature control to preserve fresh
fruit
and vegetables. Refrigeration alone will not do as good a job,
especially
in dealing with fungus and mold. I wonder what early
records
there are of ice being used in the transport of fruit. Also, I
would
be interested in finding early attempts at preserving bananas
(canning
or drying) or making banana extract so that the fruit might
be
present in spirit even if absent in the flesh.
"The
bananas that were sold in London in 1633 were a botanical sample
shipped
live as a small plant from the West Indies, allowed to mature,
and
harvested when ripe. Not a good commercial strategy."
Actually,
this can be a great commercial strategy. If you have the
sole
source of a novelty product that has good potential demand, you
can
charge quite a bit for it. In fact, this is the current situation
in
Alaska for a lot of their local fruit and vegetable production. One
of
our family friends has acres under glass.
Guillaume
Date:
Sun, 1 Aug 2010 07:11:01 -0700 (PDT)
From:
Terry Decker <t.d.decker at att.net>
To:
Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] Bananas
Actually,
this can be a great commercial strategy. If you have the
sole
source of a novelty product that has good potential demand, you
can
charge quite a bit for it. In fact, this is the current situation
in
Alaska for a lot of their local fruit and vegetable production. One
of
our family friends has acres under glass.
Guillaume
_______________________
I
was referring to the problems of transportation and care in the Age
of Sail.
However,
your customers need to know what you are selling and be willing to
pay
for
it. The bananas in London in 1633 were definitely a curiosity, but
whether
they
were a commercial success is another matter.
When
I was in Alaska most of our fruits and vegetables came in by
Skyfreighter.
Locally
grown from the Matanuska Valley was better, but demand was too high
and
the
growing season too short. Even with acres of greenhouses, I suspect
that
most
of the tropical fruits come in by air.
Bear
Date:
Sun, 27 Feb 2011 15:54:01 -0600
From:
"Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To:
"Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at
lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] My upcoming feast...
<<<
Judhaba of Bananas (Arabic 10th c.) >>>
This
can wait until after the feast, but is this really bananas, or are
these
plantains?
Stefan
---------
It's
really bananas, if it's the recipe of which I am thinking. Although
you
could replace the bananas with plantains with little effect on the
dish.
You
take a round of bread, cover it with bananas, cover the bananas with
sugar
and repeat until you fill the pan. Drench the contents with
rosewater.
Place it in an oven with a chicken suspended above it. Roast.
The
judhaban is a large, low-sided pan used to cook various dishes under
roasting
meat. The dishes are named for the pan.
Bear
Date:
Mon, 28 Feb 2011 07:44:40 -0500
From:
Elaine Koogler <kiridono at gmail.com>
To:
Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] My upcoming feast...
That's
the one. And it was a great success. If bananas weren't already so
loaded
with sugar I'd make that as a dessert for here at home. I did cheat
a
bit and used puff pastry rather than "bread."
Kiri
On
Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Terry Decker <t.d.decker at att.net>
wrote:
<<<
It's really bananas, if it's the recipe of which I am thinking.
Although
you
could replace the bananas with plantains with little effect on the
dish.
You
take a round of bread, cover it with bananas, cover the bananas with
sugar
and repeat until you fill the pan. Drench the contents with
rosewater.
Place it in an oven with a chicken suspended above it. Roast.
The
judhaban is a large, low-sided pan used to cook various dishes under
roasting
meat. The dishes are named for the pan.
Bear
>>>
Date:
Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:00:17 -0800
From:
David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
To:
Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject:
Re: [Sca-cooks] My upcoming feast...
I
used lavash, as the thin bread that seemed
closest
to what the recipe called for. Worked
pretty
well. The one problem I had was that
drenching
with rose water resulted in a stronger
flavor
than most people liked.
Of
course, I don't know how strong al-Warraq's rose water would have
been.
<<<
That's the one. And it was a great success. If bananas weren't
already so
loaded
with sugar I'd make that as a dessert for here at home. I did cheat
a
bit and used puff pastry rather than "bread."
Kiri
>>>
<the
end>