tournaments-msg - 2/25/06
Medieval tournaments.
NOTE: See also the files: tournaments-art, tourn-ideas-msg, weapons-msg, jousting-msg, marshalling-msg, b-battles-art, Fightng-Small-art, p-tourn-styls-lnks, The-Joust-art.
************************************************************************
NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************
From: VIS%AI.AI.MIT.EDU at MINTAKA.LCS.MIT.EDU ("Thomas R. Courtney")
Date: 19 Apr 90 04:50:02 GMT
Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism
Recently, a gentle (I think it weas Kwelland-Njall) suggested that blow
strength not be the ultimate test for whether a blow was good, asserting
"It is unchivalrous, as this is not mortal combat, but rather an exercise
in the arts of war by gentles of honor and chivalry."
This statement got me to thinking: what do we actually model in a tournament?
Actually, this question has bothered me for a long time, for I fear the answer
is either "nothing" or "practice at the pells". All of my study leads me to
conclude that tournament combat was a dangerous affair. People died in them,
the Church tried to ban them, the kings of England and France tried to license
them. Maurice Keen, in his excellent book "Chivalry", gives a good
description:
Nearly all the early accounts of tournaments that offer any detail come in
fact from literary sources, which are open to the suspicion of having
glamourised unduly the picture that they give of them. If some allowance is
made for literary romanticisation, however, the descriptions of tournaments
in, for instance, the romances of Chretien de Troyes tally reasonably well
with historical accounts, say those in the verse biography of William the
Marshall. Both alike make it clear that the tournaments of the twelfth
century were very rough occasions, only just distinguishable from real
battle. A day for the tournament was announced, perhaps two or three weeks
beforehand (more in the case of a great tournament), and publicised by
messengers. The site of the tournament was settled in advance, and would
cover a wide area, permitting the fighting to range over the countryside and
into villages. The limits that we usually hear of are that the tournament
shall take place between two townships, between Rougemont and Montbeliard,
for instance, or between Warwick and Kenilworth (as in Richard I's ordinance
for tournaments in England). There were no lists, and the only places where
the participants could be safe were the roped off refuges where they were
permitted to rest and disarm. Those taking part were usually divided into
two teams, the Angevins and the French, as it might be, or in England
Northerners and Southerners, and customs quickly developed as to which side
knights from a given area or "march" should join. The earliest accounts say
nothing of judges or referees, and though the principle weapons were lance
and sword, virtually no holds were barred (though the use of bolts and
arrows seems to have been frowned on). Prisoners were taken, and held to
ransom, and their horses and armour were the legitimate spoil of their
captors. Cretiens description in "Erec et Enide" of the tourney in the plain
below Tenebroc well conveys the confusion when the fighting began: "On either
side of the ranks tremble and a roar rises from the fight. The shock of
lances is very great. Lances break and shields are riddled, the hauberks
receive bumps and are torn asunder, saddles go empty and horsemen tumble,
while the horses sweat and foam. Swords are quickly drawn on those who fall
noisily, and some run to receive the promise of ransom, others to stave off
this disgrace." The line could indeed be thin between mock war and the real
thing.
Pretty rough stuff, and not very much like what we do. Later, things became
more organised, but apparently no less dangerous. Henry II of France was
mortally wounded in a tournament in 1559.
Furthermore, though dangerous, I get the impression that tournaments were not
as important in medieval times as they are for us. Participation in tournament
was a step on the path to chivalric perfection, not an end in itself.
This leads me to the conclusion that a core experience of SCA life, the
tournament, is a very poor distortion of what happened in the medieval world.
I do not claim we should make combat dangerous (I like being able to fight
with
my friends week after week), but it seems to me we are giving ourselves a
very bad lesson in what chivalry was or wasn't.
Tom Courtney
aka Vissevald Selkirksson
From: joshua at paul.rutgers.edu (Joshua Mittleman)
Date: 19 Apr 90 20:03:16 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Duke Vissevald makes some excellent points in comparing SCA
tournaments with medieval tournaments. I would offer two thoughts.
He writes:
> Furthermore, though dangerous, I get the impression that tournaments were
not
> as important in medieval times as they are for us. Participation in
> tournament was a step on the path to chivalric perfection, not an
> end in itself.
I think this may be true in one sense, but not in another. The best
of the tournament participants, if we may take William the Marshall as
a case in point, occupied a position in society similar to a star
athlete in today's world. The tournament brought fame and fortune
directly, and, by way of the contacts and recognition that might come
to the star, possibilities for advancement in other fields. Williams
career began on the tourney circuit, where he won reknown and wealth
through his exploits. By shining in this arena, he came to the
attention of powerful nobles, who hired on top tournament knights like
a baseball club owner buying up outfielders. Through the patronage of
these nobles, he rose to nearly royal rank.
Our tournaments may perhaps more closely resemble the staged combat,
the pas d'armes. A nobleman might let it be known that he and six
other knights would stand the field against all comers, or that they
would challenge three other groups of knights: 7 at lance, seven at
sword, and seven at mace. If the romance accounts are to be accepted,
these combats would be accompanied by pagentry, feasting, and general
entertainment, often with a mythological or fantastic theme. The best
SCA events seem to follow this pattern. Lord Galleron de la Chenille
and the good folk of Hartshorndale have tried to more closely recreate
this kind of tournament in the SCA, and Lord Galleron and Baron Dawyd
are currently writing a paper on how medieval tournaments might more
effectively be re-created.
Arval.
From: rick at oliveb.OLIVETTI.COM (Rick Meneely)
Date: 11 May 90 02:37:29 GMT
Tourney ransom/ Knightly overhead:
----------------------------------
Tom Courtney, aka Vissevald Selkirksson writes:
> It was suggested that the ransom price for armour and horse was inexpensive
as
> an example of the golden rule. This may be true, but I think there may have
> been a simpler explanation. The markdown may have occurred simply because
> selling the booty to show a profit took both time and expertise at selling.
Being a knight was expensive. The main reason for it's decline in the
12th century was probably due to this expense.
"The price of knightly equipment, too, had mounted to the point where the
initial outlay might cost a knight a year's income." - 'The Knight in
History'; Frances Gies
Some prices I have extracted are...
Genoa - first half of 13th century:
* Helm - 16-32 shillings
* Hauberk 120-152 shillings; with accessories approx. 200 shillings.
I also have a reference to William Marshal getting a horse worth over
40 pounds for only 7 pounds through craftiness.
What the expected yearly income for a knight was...I don't know. Does
anyone have some fiqures?
Apparently tourney rules varied a great deal. SOMETIMES armour and horses
were ransomed. SOMETIMES ransoms were arranged BEFOREHAND. While a high
ransom was seen as expressing the worth of the captive and was not looked
badly upon. Ransom raising seems to have been a collective effort at the
end
of a tourney. This means that you could afford to pay more ransom through
friends than you could alone. Also knights were not unknown to ...DEBT.
"In England, as the cost of knighthood increased, some knights with small
landholdings clubbed together to pay the expenses of the service of one
of their number". - 'The Knight in History'; Frances Gies
A clause in the Magna Carta forbids the gift or sale of land equivalent
to a knight's fee thereby owning the service of a knight. While many
had to pledge their lands and armor to raise money.
WHAT DOES ALL THIS MEAN?...Well for one thing knights may have had
fame, but very few had fortune. Yes, some even went Chapter 11.
From: leif at sugar.hackercorp.com (Lee King)
Date: 12 May 90 20:12:27 GMT
Organization: Sugar Land Unix - Houston
> Tom Courtney, aka Vissevald Selkirksson writes:
>
> > It was suggested that the ransom price for armour and horse was
inexpensive as
> > been a simpler explanation. The markdown may have occurred simply because
> > selling the booty to show a profit took both time and expertise at
selling.
> Being a knight was expensive. The main reason for it's decline in the
> 12th century was probably due to this expense.
>
> "The price of knightly equipment, too, had mounted to the point where the
> initial outlay might cost a knight a year's income." - 'The Knight in
> History'; Frances Gies
> Some prices I have extracted are...
> Genoa - first half of 13th century:
> * Helm - 16-32 shillings
> * Hauberk 120-152 shillings; with accessories approx. 200 shillings.
> I also have a reference to William Marshal getting a horse worth over
> 40 pounds for only 7 pounds through craftiness.
> What the expected yearly income for a knight was...I don't know. Does
> anyone have some fiqures?
Yes, knighthood was expensive. For example, the Assize of Arms
of Henry II of England declared: "Let every holder of a knight's fee
have a hauberk, a helmet, a shield and a lance." Add the three horse
required of a knight and the upkeep of any valets or armigers, and
you come to a pretty penny for even a fairly undistinguished knight.
Knighthood was so expensive that many, although possessing the
ways and means, refused dubbing to avoid participating in the honor and
expenses of knighthood. Philippe Contamine, in _War in the Middle
Ages_, writes that in late 13th Century England, there were some 1,250
knights (earls and barons included), of whom only ~500 were capable of
mobilization. At the same time, there were up to 1,750 non-knights who
had sufficient revenues and fees to become knights if they had so
desired. The Crown, through distraints of knighthood, made 26 attempts
between 1224 and 1272 to enlist all men possessing the knightly fee of
L20 (20 pounds).
Although I could find no figures for total knightly income, per
se, I did find figures for scutage (fees paid in lieu of military
service), wages paid militia, fief rents (fief de chambre) and fees which,
although
amounting to payment for volunteers, was apparently not considered
such, but more of a campaign indemnity paid to allow the warriors to
meet the supplementary expenses of war.
In the first category, at the end of the 12th Century, the 50
knights of Bury St Edmunds paid the abbot 29d every 20 weeks rather
than mount watch. The rate of scutage in England in the second half of
the 12th Century was levied at the rate of 6d (6 pence) per day, that is
240d or L1 per the standard 40 day period of service. Contamine also
says that, "In 1227 Frederick II, preparing his crusade, ordered that
in the kingdom of Sicily 'every fief-holder should pay for each fief
eight ounces of gold and every eight fiefs should provide a knight'; in
other words, from each group of eight fees the King-Emperor would get
one knight and 64 ounces of gold which represented about a year's pay
at current rates"(91.)
One of the uses of the money thus collected was the payment of
militia. In Perugia and Florence in the 13th Century, the militiamen
were paid from the first day of the campaign. This pay amounted to 5s
per foot soldier, 10s for a man with one horse, 15s for a man with two
horses (Perugia), 3s for crossbowmen, 2s 8d for archers, 2s 6d for
pavesiers and 2s for ordinary foot soldiers in Florence.(91)
Fief rents were, in effect, annual pensions paid for eventual
service. Contamine gives the case of Fernand de Jean as an example.
This worthy, a Castilian knight who had abandoned the service
of the king of Castile, had been in receipt of an annual income of 300l
(300 livres) from that source. For his first year in service to Philip
III of France, he received the same sum during pleasure of for life in
exchange for homage to Phillip III above all others (except Philip's
nephews, sons of his sister Blanche, and Fernando of Castile). He was
required to serve Philipe with 10 knights freely for 40 days a year,
presenting himself and men within 6 weeks of summons. He was only
required to serve only the lands of the king of Aragon, Castile, and
Portugal, in the kingdom of Navarre, in Gascony and in the county of
Toulouse. After the 40 days he would draw a daily wage of 7s 6d
(tournois), with no provisions for replacing of lost horses.(92-93)
Finally, Contamine gives the daily rates for soldiers in
England and France c. 1150-c.1300 as
Knights foot soldiers
1150-70 6d
c.1165 8d 1d
c.1196 1s
c.1215 2s 2d
c.1250 2s
III of France, he received the same sum during pleasure of for life in
exchange for homage to Phillip III above all others (except Philip's
nephews, sons of his sister Blanche, and Fernando of Castile). He was
required to serve Philipe with 10 knights freely for 40 days a year,
presenting himself and men within 6 weeks of summons. He was only
required to serve only the lands of the king of Aragon, Castile, and
Portugal, in the kingdom of Navarre, in Gascony and in the county of
Toulouse. After the 40 days he would draw a daily wage of 7s 6d
(tournois), with no provisions for replacing of lost horses.(92-93)
Finally, Contamine gives the daily rates for soldiers in
England and France c. 1150-c.1300 as
Knights foot soldiers
1150-70 6d
c.1165 8d 1d
c.1196 1s
c.1215 2s 2d
c.1250 2s
c.1300 2,3,or 4s* 2d+
---------------------------------------------------------------------
France (in livres tournois)
1202 7s 6d 10d
1295 10s, 12s 6d, or 15s** 12d++
*in silver: 31.12g, 46.49g or 62.24g
+in silver: 2.6g
**in silver: 33.48g, 41.85g, or 50.22g
++in silver: 3.34g
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Contamine, Philippe. _War in the Middle Ages_. Trans. Michael
Jones. New York: Blackwell, 1984.
From: John-Joseph Bober
To: All
17-May-90 08:33am
Subject: Ransom & Female Coronets...
1) To those debating the ransoming prices of the Middle Ages, a bit of
information. "It has been calculated that around 1250 in England, the
equipment of a knight, his horses included, was equivalent to his year's
revenue, that is L20." (page 97, _War in the Middle Ages_ Contamine, Philippe.
I didn't go looking for it, I just happen to be reading the book at work while
my golem translates my instructions (read compile programs).
2) If I read correctly, the Lady who won the coronet of Drachenward in her own
right was Gwenllhian during the reign of Gavin and Sedalia.
Yours in Service,
Jan
Ioseph
Alex
Re: Fencing List Sources
Date: 25 Nov 91
A>From: IO00970 at MAINE.BITNET (Alex)
A> I am trying to organize a fencing tourney, and am looking for
A>ideas as
A> to types of fun, non-competitive, long lasting tournies. I
A>will
A> accept any and all ideas, sources, et cetera, both period and
A>otherwise
One of the more popular forms we have used is the "Tavern Brawl" scenario, where all participants arrange themselves, seated, as if “in a tavern. At the Marshall's signal, a free-for-all melee erupts. Last person alive is the winner.
The walls are marked off, and if one is driven thru a wall, one is dead. The tavern usually has an entrance marked, and being driven thru that counts as not-dead, but out of the fight until re-entered.
This has a tendency to get -real exciting- at times! BTW, chairs and stools as parrying weapons (ONLY!) are considered legal.
-Ioseph of Locksley
From: lisch at relay.mentorg.COM (Ray Lischner)
Date: 6 Dec 91 22:18:56 GMT
Organization: The Internet
>>>>> On 6 Dec 91 12:36:07 GMT, awbaben at accucx.cc.ruu.nl (Marcel Kramer) said:
Marcel> Now about period-looking, what finally persuaded me to post:
Marcel> First heavy weapons, this can be completly authentic, but for the weapons,
Marcel> i.e. the rattan. This for safety purposes.
We use rattan rather than blunted steel for safety reasons. Some other
re-creation groups use blunted steel rather than sharp steel for safety
reasons. In the Middle Ages, the knights were no more desirous of
being injured or killed than we are, so they, too, used blunted steel,
wood, whalebone, etc., instead of sharp steel in their tournaments.
In the SCA, we are (unwittingly) recreating the tournaments, jousts,
and similar martial sports of the Middle Ages, to a surprising degree
of accuracy. There is almost no difference between the medieval
behourd and an SCA resurrection battle.
One treatise on tournaments* (probably written between 1462 and 1475)
specifies that swords are to be made from fir or yew. We use rattan;
I do not consider that to be a significant difference.
We use carpet armor; they used linen. We use plastic; they used
whalebone. We use mail; they used mail. We use plate; they used
plate. We use boiled leather; they used boiled leather.
We ban real weapons from the lists; so did they.* We have a minister
of the lists to make sure the entrants are properly authorized; so did
they---they were called heralds, and the entrance requirements were
that one had to be a knight, not an enemy of the king, and so on**.
We have marshals to keep people from hurting the spectators or from
hurting themselves or other combatants more than strictly necessary;
so did they.***
We have a minister of the lists to keep track of who fights whom. So
did they. In a fifteenth century pas d'armes, or passage of arms, a
common form was for one or more knights to display shields and issue
an open challenge to all comers. Any comer could sign his name on a
piece of paper on or near the shield, or a herald (can you say
minister of the lists?) might write the name instead. The herald was
then responsible for making sure that each comer had his chance to
face the challenger, in the proper order.*** The only difference is
that they did not have eliminations, round robins, and the like.
So far, however, I have not found any evidence for medieval use of
duct tape. :-)
*La forme des tournois au temps du Roy Uter and du Roy Artus suivie
de l'armorial des chevaliers de la table ronde, in "The influence of
romances on tournaments of the Middle Ages," by Ruth Huff Cline, in
Speculum, vol. 20, no. 2, April, 1945, pp. 204-211. English translation
by your truly to be published "real soon."
**Book of Tournaments by Rene d'Anjou (written in 1451), in Francis
Henry Cripss-Day, The history of the tournament in England and in France.
NY: AMS Press, 1982. ISBN 0-404-17138-9. Reprint of London: B. Quartich, 1918.
***A well-known example is the Field of Cloth of Gold, in 1520. A rather
complete discussion of this event can be found in "The field of cloth
of gold." (Oops, complete citation is at home. For details, send me
email.)
For more information about medieval tournaments, jousts, etc., see
Richard Barber & Juliet Barker, "Tournaments: Jousts, chivalry and
pageants in the Middle Ages." NY: Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1989.
ISBN 1-55584-400-6.
Peregrine Payne Dragon's Mist, An Tir
Ray Lischner UUCP: {uunet,apollo,decwrl}!mntgfx!lisch
this might work, too: lisch at mentorg.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Subject: Re: Book query
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1993 19:26:53 GMT
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research
Greetings from Arval! Thorfyrd wrote:
> Is anyone able to recommend, or otherwise, the following books:
>
> "Records of the Medieval Sword", ISBN 0-85115539-1
> "Tournaments", ISBN 0-85115490-0
ISBN are wonderfully accurate for identifying books if you happen to have a
computerized catalogue to cross-check. For mere mortals, the authors'
names would be helpful. If the latter book is by Richard Barber and Juliet
Barker, then I recommend it most highly: It is the single best
general-purpose survey of the history of the tournament that I have
encountered. It is quite readable, heavily illustrated, and has an
excellent bibliography.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: keegan at netcom.com (Tim Bray/C. Keegan)
Subject: Re: Alternative Tourney formats
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 1994 04:48:29 GMT
David Friedman (DDF2 at cornell.edu) wrote:
: I came across a rule somewhere from a tournament saying that each knight
: was allowed to bring three squires. It was not clear to me whether the
: squires were actually on the field helping the knight during some part of
: the fighting or not, but that seemed a possible interpretation. It was the
: grounds on which Grey Gargoyles started doing four man team tournies--each
: team being a knight and three squires, or a leader and three followers.
: --
: David/Cariadoc
: DDF2 at Cornell.Edu
In the 15th c. form of tournament called the pas d'armes there were
various rules about the size and nature of the knights' retinue.
Typically, for the melee combats (and sometimes for individual foot
combats as well), a knight could be accompanied onto the field by some
number of squires. The squires usually couldn't actively fight against
other knights; their purpose was to help defend their knight against
others. The squires were equipped with limited armor and with rods or
staffs for the defensive action. Later on, the distinctions between
squires and knights got blurry, and eventually the Middle Ages ended...
Cheers,
Tim
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Subject: Re: Music during tournaments
Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 19:21:07 GMT
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research
Greetings from Arval! Miklos wrote:
> I was disturbed by the comment one gentle made in the "Melodia" thread about
> music not being appropriate by the side of the lists. A large number of
> illuminations of tournaments include musicians playing during the tourney.
> In my opinion, music makes tournaments more festive and more interesting
> to non-fighters. I've found that events that involve non-fighters in the
> tournament (as spectators or otherwise) are much more interesting for
> everyone concerned.
I could not agree more strongly. The tournament should not be approached
as a sporting event, even as a highly honorable sporting event. Rather, it
should be the stage for the display of _all_ the virtues of chivalry, which
include prowess but also nobility and courtliness. Through most of the
history of the tournament, it was a courtly entertainment in which the
actual fighting was often no more than the excuse for a grand pageant and
festival. It was common for a tournament to last a full week, with
fighting only on part of one day. Consider, for example, that King Rene's
devoted nearly all of his Book of Tournaments to description of the
processions, ceremonies, and parties, and covered the actual fighting in a
single paragraph.
Society tournaments should include entertainment to appeal to all comers;
music, dancing, and singing should be indispensable.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at watson.ibm.com
From: ansteorra at eden.com (7/15/95)
To: ansteorra at eden.com
RE>Tournaments...
Antonio Bastiano writes:
> I've had some problem finding information on how tournaments were actually
> held
The book you want to get is _Tournaments: Jousts, Chivalry and
Pageants in the Middle Ages_, by Richard Barber and Juiliet Barker,
1989, Weidenfeld & Nicolson, New York, ISBN 1-55584-400-6. This is
by far the best book on medieval tournaments I've ever found or heard
of. It's a scholarly book, with an really good bibliography, but
written in a very easy-to-read, coffee-table book style, and loaded
with illustrations from period manuscripts and artwork. As Da'ud Bob
says, "Check it out!"
From the Table of Contents:
1. The origins of the Tournament
2. The Tournament in North-West Europe to 1400
3. The Tournament in Germany
4. The Tournament in Italy and Spain
5. The Late Medieval and Renaissance Tournament: Spectavles, Pas
d'arms, and Challenges
6. The Dangers of Tournament: Spiritual Condemnation and Public
Disorder
7. Tournament Armour
8. Tournaments as Events
Mikjal Annarbjorn
--
Michael A. Chance St. Louis, Missouri, USA "At play in the fields
Work: mc307a at sw1stc.sbc.com of St. Vidicon"
Play: mchance at crl.com
From: mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (michael squires)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,alt.fairs.renaissance
Subject: Re: Question about Jousting
Date: 18 Jul 1995 18:38:13 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
In article <3ugr8j$qoj at uwm.edu>,
Barbara Jean Kuehl <bj at alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
>
>Was the jousting of knights open to the public (including the peasantry)
>or was the joust a closed event viewed by royalty and nobles only?
In the late 16th century Queen Elizabeth sold tickets to the Accession
Day tournaments (2 shillings, if I remember correctly), which would have
yielded her quite a bit of income. The tiltyard was located near
Westminster Abbey.
--
Michael L. Squires, Ph.D Manager of Instructional Computing, Freshman Office,
Chemistry Department, IU Bloomington, IN 47405 812-855-0852 (o) 81-333-6564 (h)
mikes at indiana.edu, mikes at ucs.indiana.edu, or mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu
From: mittle at panix.com (Josh Mittleman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,alt.fairs.renaissance
Subject: Re: Question about Jousting
Date: 18 Jul 1995 14:47:39 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Barbara Jean Kuehl (bj at alpha1.csd.uwm.edu) wrote:
: Was the jousting of knights open to the public (including the peasantry)
: or was the joust a closed event viewed by royalty and nobles only?
I do not know of any specific evidence of lower-class crowds at
tournaments, but even if my knowledge of the sources were far greater than
it is, I don't think this would be conclusive proof that tournaments were
watched exclusively by the nobility. Many tournaments were held in
circumstances which would have allowed the general public to watch (e.g.,
outside the walls of a city), and many more were combined with elaborate
pageants that were clearly aimed toward the populace. But it doesn't
follow that the populace's interest extended from the pageant to the
hastiludes themselves.
Toward the end of our period, there were sports which grew out of the
tournament which included participants from the middle class, if not the
lower class; but these were not true tournaments, so a generalization is
unfounded.
Throughout the period, of course, there were servants, musicians, and other
minstrels who worked at tournaments, and there were tournaments which were
held at popular fairs and festivals; but again, this evidence is merely
suggestive.
In the absence of evidence that the lower classes did watch tournaments, it
is probably safest to assume that they did not; but that hypothesis is very
weak, at best. I suspect the answer very much depends on the time and
place.
Arval
From: ritchiek at expert.cc.purdue.edu (Karen Ritchie)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,alt.fairs.renaissance
Subject: Re: Question about Jousting
Date: 18 Jul 1995 16:10:08 -0500
Organization: Purdue University
One gentle posted a question asking if the peasants watched
jousting or if it was entertainment for nobles and royalty only.
In my research of period jousts and tournaments I would say that the
peasants did see the jousts, whether they found them entertaining or not
is hard to say, but some of the jousting took place in the village streets
so a law was passed requiring that the jousting knights have bells on their
horses so that the populace could hear them coming and get out of their way.
this is why many period illustrations show large bells on the horses.
In most cases the peasants would have taken advantage of the crowds drawn by
the jousts to sell any extra produce they might be able to spare.-Isabeau P.
From: axv0015 at vaxd.isc.rit.edu (Andrew Veter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,alt.fairs.renaissance
Subject: Re: Question about Jousting
Date: 20 Jul 1995 13:06:11 GMT
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
In article <3uk86e$jin at rand.org>, waltern at thoreau.rand.org (Walter Nelson)
writes:
(snip)
>I do not *KNOW*, and am not sufficiently interested to do the digging that
>would be required to prove conclusively the presence of peasants, laborers
>etc. and tournements. I cannot however, believe that the people of the
>Middle Ages would be utterly indifferent to the specatcle of the
>tournement, given their love of spectacle and display in religious festivals,
>pageants, public executions etc.
We may not have very many concrete sources concerning the presence of the
lower classes at hastiludia, but there are sources that infer this.
"...whilst in 1281 at Magdeburg merchants and townsmen met at Pentecost."
Refering to 'Gral' tournaments (Arthurian theme):
"...connected with spring festivals and took place in May or Whitsuntide..."
There is even an account wherein a minstrel composed a song in which he asked
for a horse. William the Marshall jumped on his horse, unseated a knight, and
presented the horse to the minstrel.
Later centuries provide us with better sources. Hastiludia were often used to
celebrate Coronations or weddings. These usualy were proclaimed throughout
Europe.
"At such gatherings potential trouble could never be ruled out. In 1362 the
town council of in Nuremburg tried unsuccessfully to forbid the tournament
because of the disturbances caused by the townspeople at these meetings."
>
(snip)
>I would suggest, again, that it was because they were invisible to the
>aristocracy and most of the religious chroniclers. I also don't see how,
>in cases where the lists could be overlooked from outside, they could have
>been excluded.
I agree. The passages we find almost never mention those of low status.
However, much can be deduced from where and when a tourney is held. Some
accounts speak of town festivals wherein knights were asked to attend 'jousts'.
Many documents mention processions and public pageantry. The later
in period we go the greater the proliferation of such passages and actual
references to the lower classes. Public records also reflect the fact that
townspeople probably had too good a time at these events.
>
(snip)
>Cheers,
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Walter Nelson | INSERT PITHY WITTICISM HERE
>RAND |
>walter_nelson at rand.org |
>___________________________________________________________________________
Ariel
From: mchance at crl.com (Michael A. Chance)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,alt.fairs.renaissance
Subject: Re: Question about Jousting
Date: 19 Jul 1995 19:09:18 -0700
Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access
Arval writes:
>A large proportion of the contemporary accounts of tournaments come to us
>from clerical chroniclers, most of whom used their writings to attack the
>tournament as fundamentally evil. If the tournament were attracting large
>crowds of the common folk, I would expect these chroniclers to have include
>a charge that tournaments encouraged the common folk to sloth and drew them
>away from their labor. But, as far as I know, that charge is not found in
>the chronicles.
Barber and Barker do mention that there are numerous writing and
ordinance with regards to tournaments and civil disorder. There does
seem to have been _some_ disruption to the local way of life when the
tourney came to your town. Witness the numerous ordinances
prohibiting tourneys within or near towns, against tourneyers
"fraternizing" with townsfolk, etc.
Mikjal Annarbjorn
--
Michael A. Chance St. Louis, Missouri, USA "At play in the fields
Work: mc307a at sw1stc.sbc.com of St. Vidicon"
Play: mchance at crl.com
From: paigen at best.com (David Paigen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,alt.fairs.renaissance
Subject: Re: Question about Jousting
Date: 21 Jul 1995 14:19:27 -0700
Organization: Forte Computer Systems, Brisbane CA
mittle at panix.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>In my own studies of the medieval tournament, I have found no evidence of
>lower class audiences. It seems unlikely to me that such audiences would
>not have been mentioned in the many surviving descriptions of the
>tournament if they were routinely present.
My close study of history starts in 1485, so I can't speak as to
who would watch medieval tourneys. However, _Tudor_and_Jacobean_
_Tournaments_ spends considerable time discussing the audience for
tourneys, where they watched from, and the problems involved.
Stands were erected for the monarch, nobels, and other high class
folks, regular folks were charged an admission and watched from
just outside a fence surrounding the tiltyard. The book includes
quotes, notes primary sources, and also has a number of woodcuts
that show peasentry watching jousts.
This is true for Henry VIII, Elizabeth I, James I/VIII.
I don't have the book with me here at work, so if you want
proper citations, mail me at paigen at forte.org.
--
David Paigen, aka Sir Henry Lee, Queen's Champion Will answer stupid user
paigen at best.com C, unix, X, news, and questions for beer.
paigen at forte.org distributed systems (good beer)
From: cmalden at bga.com (Antonio Bastiano)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Question about Jousting
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 95 09:51:00 CST
Organization: Real/Time Communications - Bob Gustwick and Associates
On the subject of jousting and non-nobility, I have heard of a couple of games
that the lower classes would play at festivals:
In one, they would "joust" each other on wooden sawhorses with wheels, pushed
by a few of their friends.
In the second, they would dress a man in jousting armor, give him a shield and
set him in a chair. Then people would take a "lance" and try to unseat him.
Though not appropriate for nobility, these are both feasable for what we do,
and could be a lot of fun.
I remain Yours, etc.
Antonio Bastiano
or cmwalden at bga.com
From: daniel.dillman at gollum.cloudnet.com (Daniel Dillman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Question about Jousting
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 04:01:00 GMT
Organization: Personal Computer Services
>Was the jousting of knights open to the public (including the peasantry)
>or was the joust a closed event viewed by royalty and nobles only?
This likely varied from time to time and place. In _A Distant Mirror_,
Barbara Tuchman discusses the French tournaments to some degree. While she
doesn't explicitly state that peasants were not allowed, she does seem to
imply that they were not present in significant numbers during the 14th
century.
From: chronique at aol.com (Chronique)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: NEW BOOK--THE BOOK OF THE TOURNAMENT
Date: 1 Aug 1995 12:29:29 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
THE CHIVALRY BOOKSHELF
Our first hardcover book, "The Book of the Tournament," is at the printers
and will be received in time for Pennsic!
The Book of the Tournament is meant for novices and advanced combatants
alike. It explores the meaning and function of the tournament, answering
many questions and striving to provoke discussions: What is renown? What
is the role of the consort? What are the different formats of tournaments?
What is the role of a marshal or herald? How do we define victory? What
are the duties of a squire? What does it mean to be a knight? What is the
company of Saint George?
Set in the layout style of an early Caxton book, the physical layout is
based on the 1485 edition of The Boke of Knyghthode and Chuyalry by Ramon
Lull. It is printed on natural, heavy paper and bound in a red
leatherette--meant for keeping.
It is our intention that this is the first book of a series--THE KNIGHT'S
BOOKSHELF. Next summer we hope to release a collection of period knightly
handbooks--Ramon Lull, Geoffry de Charnay, and the Ordene de Chevalerie.
These are pieces that anyone interested in knighthood will find
fascinating--and we are considering presenting the translations in
side-by-side format.
THE BOOK OF THE TOURNAMENT will be available Aug. 13 for $21.95. For your
copy, pick one up at the Pennsic War at Sir Talbot's booth or at other
courteous armourers. Or telephone your order to us at 415.961.2187,
leaving your name, address, VISA/MC card number with expiration. Or send a
check for $21.95 +$3.00 S+H to:
The Chivalry Bookshelf
316 Escuela Avenue #38
Mountain View, CA 94040
415.961.2187
Chronique at aol.com
after Aug. 25: http://www.chronique.com
From: ritchiek at expert.cc.purdue.edu (Karen Ritchie)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,alt.fairs.renaissance
Subject: Re: Question about Jousting
Date: 18 Jul 1995 16:10:08 -0500
Organization: Purdue University
One gentle posted a question asking if the peasants watched
jousting or if it was entertainment for nobles and royalty only.
In my research of period jousts and tournaments I would say that the
peasants did see the jousts, whether they found them entertaining or not
is hard to say, but some of the jousting took place in the village streets
so a law was passed requiring that the jousting knights have bells on their
horses so that the populace could hear them coming and get out of their way.
this is why many period illustrations show large bells on the horses.
In most cases the peasants would have taken advantage of the crowds drawn by
the jousts to sell any extra produce they might be able to spare.-Isabeau P.
From: axv0015 at vaxd.isc.rit.edu (Andrew Veter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,alt.fairs.renaissance
Subject: Re: Question about Jousting
Date: 20 Jul 1995 13:06:11 GMT
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
In article <3uk86e$jin at rand.org>, waltern at thoreau.rand.org (Walter Nelson)
writes:
(snip)
>I do not *KNOW*, and am not sufficiently interested to do the digging that
>would be required to prove conclusively the presence of peasants, laborers
>etc. and tournements. I cannot however, believe that the people of the
>Middle Ages would be utterly indifferent to the specatcle of the
>tournement, given their love of spectacle and display in religious festivals,
>pageants, public executions etc.
We may not have very many concrete sources concerning the presence of the
lower classes at hastiludia, but there are sources that infer this.
"...whilst in 1281 at Magdeburg merchants and townsmen met at Pentecost."
Refering to 'Gral' tournaments (Arthurian theme):
"...connected with spring festivals and took place in May or Whitsuntide..."
There is even an account wherein a minstrel composed a song in which he asked
for a horse. William the Marshall jumped on his horse, unseated a knight, and
presented the horse to the minstrel.
Later centuries provide us with better sources. Hastiludia were often used to
celebrate Coronations or weddings. These usualy were proclaimed throughout
Europe.
"At such gatherings potential trouble could never be ruled out. In 1362 the
town council of in Nuremburg tried unsuccessfully to forbid the tournament
because of the disturbances caused by the townspeople at these meetings."
>
(snip)
>I would suggest, again, that it was because they were invisible to the
>aristocracy and most of the religious chroniclers. I also don't see how,
>in cases where the lists could be overlooked from outside, they could have
>been excluded.
I agree. The passages we find almost never mention those of low status.
However, much can be deduced from where and when a tourney is held. Some
accounts speak of town festivals wherein knights were asked to attend 'jousts'.
Many documents mention processions and public pageantry. The later
in period we go the greater the proliferation of such passages and actual
references to the lower classes. Public records also reflect the fact that
townspeople probably had too good a time at these events.
>
(snip)
>Walter Nelson
>RAND
>walter_nelson at rand.org
Ariel
From: mchance at crl.com (Michael A. Chance)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,alt.fairs.renaissance
Subject: Re: Question about Jousting
Date: 19 Jul 1995 19:09:18 -0700
Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access
Arval writes:
>A large proportion of the contemporary accounts of tournaments come to us
>from clerical chroniclers, most of whom used their writings to attack the
>tournament as fundamentally evil. If the tournament were attracting large
>crowds of the common folk, I would expect these chroniclers to have include
>a charge that tournaments encouraged the common folk to sloth and drew them
>away from their labor. But, as far as I know, that charge is not found in
>the chronicles.
Barber and Barker do mention that there are numerous writing and
ordinance with regards to tournaments and civil disorder. There does
seem to have been _some_ disruption to the local way of life when the
tourney came to your town. Witness the numerous ordinances
prohibiting tourneys within or near towns, against tourneyers
"fraternizing" with townsfolk, etc.
Mikjal Annarbjorn
--
Michael A. Chance St. Louis, Missouri, USA "At play in the fields
Work: mc307a at sw1stc.sbc.com of St. Vidicon"
Play: mchance at crl.com
From: paigen at best.com (David Paigen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,alt.fairs.renaissance
Subject: Re: Question about Jousting
Date: 21 Jul 1995 14:19:27 -0700
Organization: Forte Computer Systems, Brisbane CA
mittle at panix.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>In my own studies of the medieval tournament, I have found no evidence of
>lower class audiences. It seems unlikely to me that such audiences would
>not have been mentioned in the many surviving descriptions of the
>tournament if they were routinely present.
My close study of history starts in 1485, so I can't speak as to
who would watch medieval tourneys. However, _Tudor_and_Jacobean_
_Tournaments_ spends considerable time discussing the audience for
tourneys, where they watched from, and the problems involved.
Stands were erected for the monarch, nobels, and other high class
folks, regular folks were charged an admission and watched from
just outside a fence surrounding the tiltyard. The book includes
quotes, notes primary sources, and also has a number of woodcuts
that show peasentry watching jousts.
This is true for Henry VIII, Elizabeth I, James I/VIII.
I don't have the book with me here at work, so if you want
proper citations, mail me at paigen at forte.org.
--
David Paigen, aka Sir Henry Lee, Queen's Champion Will answer stupid user
paigen at best.com C, unix, X, news, and questions for beer.
paigen at forte.org distributed systems (good beer)
From: cmalden at bga.com (Antonio Bastiano)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Question about Jousting
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 95 09:51:00 CST
Organization: Real/Time Communications - Bob Gustwick and Associates
On the subject of jousting and non-nobility, I have heard of a couple of games
that the lower classes would play at festivals:
In one, they would "joust" each other on wooden sawhorses with wheels, pushed
by a few of their friends.
In the second, they would dress a man in jousting armor, give him a shield and
set him in a chair. Then people would take a "lance" and try to unseat him.
Though not appropriate for nobility, these are both feasable for what we do,
and could be a lot of fun.
I remain Yours, etc.
Antonio Bastiano
or cmwalden at bga.com
From: daniel.dillman at gollum.cloudnet.com (Daniel Dillman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Question about Jousting
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 04:01:00 GMT
Organization: Personal Computer Services
>Was the jousting of knights open to the public (including the peasantry)
>or was the joust a closed event viewed by royalty and nobles only?
This likely varied from time to time and place. In _A Distant Mirror_,
Barbara Tuchman discusses the French tournaments to some degree. While she
doesn't explicitly state that peasants were not allowed, she does seem to
imply that they were not present in significant numbers during the 14th
century.
From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Unusual Tournament Styles
Date: 12 Dec 1995 15:34:35 -0500
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Greetings from Arval! Jason Thorne reported:
> here in Tir Ysgithr we do a Dragons horde tourney, in which u have 6
> fighterr roped togethter to form a dragon and the only way to kill it is
> to kill the head.
I don't know of a period example of knights fighting while roped together;
but the idea of six knights taking challenges against all comers, with
special rules and complicated "victory conditions" is quite compatible with
the elaborate passages of arms of the late 14th and 15th centuries.
A medieval nobleman might have done it this way: He and five comrades would
invite all comers to challenge the fury of the Dragon. The comers would
find an elaborate set-up, in which they first face the Defenders of the
Dragon, singly or in groups, who might be fancifully named and emblazoned
with the limbs, tail, and head of the dragon. A comer who survives his
combat with the Defenders of the Dragon win through to the Dragon itself,
which might be hidden within a mock-up of a cave or castle. The comer
might discover that the Dragon is actually a beautiful maiden, dressed in
flame red clothing, who poses questions on courtly behavior. The knight
who answers these questions properly has defeated the dragon by proving
himself worthy both in combat and in court, and is rewarded with a rich
prize.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at panix.com
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:30:49 MST
From: "Caley Woulfe" <cwoulfe at life.edu>
Subject: ANST - Fw: [TY] (Fwd) St. Inglevert
To: "Ansteorran List" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>
-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan S McDaniel <kestrel at hawk.org>
To: TY at reashelm.ce.utk.edu <TY at reashelm.ce.utk.edu>
Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 11:51 AM
Subject: [TY] (Fwd) St. Inglevert
>------- Forwarded message follows -------
>Date sent: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 11:26:22 -0500
>From: Finnvarr de Taahe <finnvarr at ealdormere.sca.org>
>To: Middlebridge <sca-middle at midrealm.org>, Calontir
<Calontir at unl.edu>,
> Ealdormere list <E_List at ealdormere.sca.org>
>Subject: [Mid] St. Inglevert
>
>For a few weeks now I've had an English translation of Froissart's
>account of the St. Inglevert tournament on line:
>http://www.unipissing.ca/department/history/froissart/inglever.htm
>
>It's so long, though, that it's hard to get a handle on it, to really
>appreciate the action.
>
>So I went through it and broke down the action into a table with a short
>explanation, which is now at:
>http://www.unipissing.ca/department/history/froissart/analysis.htm
>
>Finnvarr
>Feel free to cross-post.
>
>From: Finnvarr de Taahe <finnvarr at ealdormere.sca.org>
>------- End of forwarded message -------
Subject: Re: ANST - Tournaments in the Middle Ages
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 10:28:07 -0500
From: "Walter Robin" <aborman at brightok.net>
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>
This one's pretty cool...It's an English translation of "King Rene's
Tournament Book" written c. 1460.
http://www.princeton.edu/~ezb/rene/renehome.html
Ld Walter Robin, Scrimer
----- Original Message -----
> Would someone be willing to share some of their favorite URL's that
> have material about the time frames and weapons and particularly armor
> styles that were in period during the time tournaments were held in the
> Middle Ages?
>
> Valstarr
Subject: RE: ANST - Tournaments in the Middle Ages
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 12:51:10 -0500
From: cchipman at nomadics.com (Carl Chipman)
Organization: Nomadics, Inc.
To: "'ansteorra at ansteorra.org'" <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>
Valstarr, definitely the place to start is the Chronique web site
Brian Price et al have done a LOT of work researching and documenting period
tournament formats...
Jean Paul
Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] Sir pendaran, how does this ransoming work??
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:52:14 -0500
From: Chris Zakes <moondrgn at austin.rr.com>
To: bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org
>Conor,
>
>Ransoms are a simple thing, really. When in tournament, should a knight best
>another knight, he is entitled to take a trophy, say a sword apiece of armor
>or even the bested knight's horse. If that knight who was defeated wishes
>the return of his property he must pay a ransom, usually in cash. If he
>does not do so, then his property is forfeited to the victor.
>
>As you are not a squire, Conor, I cannot give you these lessons for free.
>Therefore, I shall consider the price of this lesson in chivalry to be the
>return of my sword which my dear cousin Fritz did so kindly place into your
>hands.
>
>Pendaran
According to Alan Young's "Tudor and Jacobean Tournaments", it was
customary in that period that *anything* that fell to the ground during the
course of a joust or other mounted combat became the property of the
herald. Young mentions one case where a knight was unhorsed and the herald
claimed *him* as part of his "salvage rights".
-Tivar Moondragon
<the end>