tourn-ideas-msg - 9/1/12
Ideas for SCA tournaments.
NOTE: See also the files: tournaments-art, tournaments-msg, marshalling-msg, b-battles-art, jousting-msg.
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Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cassie at worf.nas.nasa.gov (Cassandra L. Baldassano)
Subject: Re: Lists alternatives-challenges
Organization: NAS/NASA-Ames Research Center
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1993 16:51:00 GMT
Greetings from Euriol,
Joy_DAY/ADMIN/UA at hpdesk.utc.EDU (Joy DAY) writes:
|> ...I have served as MOL for the past few years here,
|> and I would welcome any innovation in the way things are done.
|> I think MOL's are not intentionally inflexible, it's just that
|> when you invest that much pre-event time in working out fight
|> schedules for any number of participants, and you are expected
|> to use a certain format, it FREAKS YOU OUT when somebody requests
|> a change at the last minute. I would be all for a more flexible
|> system than the double-elimination or round robin used here, and
|> challenges would certainly give a face lift to the old tourney.
|> Shoot, I'd like to see a whole tourney done on the basis of
|> challenges-then I could goof off for the WHOLE tourney.
|> Madelena de Luna
I am also the Lists Officer for my local group and deputy to the kingdom Lists
Officer. And yes I agree, It could really annoy the hell out of me if someone
wanted to change the lists at the last minute. But if you determine the type
of lists before hand, you can have a variety of choices.
I have done the double-elim and the round robin. For the West's Crown tourney's,
you can't do anything but a double-elim because if you tried one of the others,
it might take 2-3 days to run the lists.
But for smaller lists you can do a swiss or mad dog list.
The swiss list is where all fighters fight a preset number of rounds, usually
5-6, trying to match people with the same number of wins (or losses) against
each other. After the 5-6 rounds, eliminate all fighters with 2 or more losses
and continue from there in the same style or in a double-elim.
The mad dog is where you let the fighters challenge each other. All they have
to do is after the fight tell you who they fought and who won. Give each fighter
a point for fighting, and an extra point to the winner. The person with the most
points at the end wins. (I have seen a variation on this were if you beat a
knight, you get 2 points extra; a count, 3 points extra; a duke, 4 points extra;
and reigning royalty 5 points extra).
Both of these styles of lists can be a lot of fun.
Euriol
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Subject: Re: ransom tourney idea
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 17:51:00 GMT
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research
Greetings from Arval! Fujimoto offered:
> Anyone want to run a "real" ransom tourney, more like the Wars of the
> Middle Ages? I have the following ideas for rules:
I have some suggestions. In general, I think we should try to make our
tournaments educational as well as fun, and I think we can do that by
designing the rules to be as close as possible to the historical model.
>
> 1) Head or Body shots still count as kills. Your opponent must
> surrender to be "captured". (An armless, legless fighter
> will count as a de facto surrender...) You may choose to
> kill your opponent, or you may simply kill him: it's up to
> you, and you can decide at any time.
I would prefer to think of our "killing blows" as stunning or disabling the
opponent, making capture automatic. Killing one's opponent was not part of
the goal of the 12th century tourneyer; it was counter-productive. Thus,
there should be two ways to be captured: By agreeing to it, or by being
subdued.
> 2) The captor must make arrangements to guard the captive. Yes,
> the captive can give his Word of Honor (WoH) not to escape,
> but if he is not watched he may freely assume, without Loss
> of Honor (LoH) that his Captor no longer wants to keep him
> captive.
I think this would be contrary to the contemporary ideal of chivalry: The
notion that a captive has a duty to try to escape is modern. In the
medieval tournament, once a knight had surrendered and accepted capture, he
was bound by honor not only to refrain from trying to escape, but to refuse
rescue and ensure that his ransom was properly paid. A fighter who is
sudbued ("killed") obviously cannot escape.
> 3) Ransom to be determined between what the Captor is willing
> to pay and what the Captive is willing to demand. Ransom
> may include other captives, or even service.
I don't think any further guidelines are needed; let them work it out on
their own. If the captor makes unreasonable demands, then he will get
nothing out of the deal and the captive can hire a minstrel to spread the
word that other fighters should not accept capture by him. If the captive
makes unreasonable demands, then he remains captive, out of the fighting
until he agrees to something fair. Arbitors might be an interesting touch,
but they should be free agents, not official judges.
> 4) If the Captor is "killed" during the day, all his captives
> are assumed to be freed.
I think that would be a mistake, in that it is historically inaccurate. Of
course, since I'd make "killed" mean "subdued", the question would turn
into this: What happens when a captor is himself captured? He could
certainly use some or all of his captives to ransom himself. I don't see
an advantage to any automatic forfeit.
Once everyone gets the idea of how things work, I think ransom tourneys
work best with the minimum organizational overhead.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at watson.ibm.com
From: mabr at sweden.hp.com (Morgan "the Dreamer" Broman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Tournaments
Date: 24 May 1994 09:38:55 GMT
Organization: HP/SCA/SKA/FSTS/AMTS/SLRP/ETC Sweden
Arval d'Espas Nord (mittle at watson.ibm.com) wrote:
: Greetings from Arval! Cairbre wrote:
: The first suggestion is probably the most imporant: The judged tournaments
: I've attended have had about four judges each, who awarded two or three
: prizes of moderate value, but I have never seen any evidence that their
: judgements were unjust or considered unjust.
At Magna Carta II I ran a "Kings Prize Tourney", it went as
follows :
1) You fought over a low fence. (At the barriers)
This kept the fighting in close...;)
2) Before the tournament started the helmets and shields
of the contestants were put up on display. The Ladies
then went over and had a look. If they found the coat-
of-arms of someone who had insulted them they would
tell the Herald, who would then remove the helmet and
shield from the display. Thereby eliminating that fighter.
3) Each match consisted of best out of three matches
same opponent, same weaponform.
4) First round was sword and shield.
Second round was greatweapon (polearm, greatsword etc)
Third round was spear.
5) The contestants were drawn by lot before each round.
Though you could not meet the same person twice in the
tournament.
6) The King and the Ladies were the judges.
7) Judgement was based on three things :
Courtesy (behaviour)
Prowess (skill in battle)
Heraldic display (shields, armour, tabard)
8) There was a fine prize, a pair of Cups, one for the Lord
and one for his Lady.
9) Special seats were set up for the Ladies who had fighters in
the tournament, so that they had a good view and could follow
their champions.
It came off very well, both the crowd and the fighters liked it..;)
The shields and helmets were on display all the time the fighters did not
fight. This kept them (the helmets and shields that is) in one place...;)
Ciao
Morgan//
...who likes this sort of tournament better than tennis....;)
--
HP : Morgan Broman mabr at sweden.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mchance at nyx10.cs.du.edu (Michael Chance)
Subject: Re: Alternative Tournament Formats
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 94 18:55:57 GMT
Tristan writes:
>1.) A greatsword or "wacky weapons" tournament. If you're not authorized in
>greatsword, you can fight sword and dagger, or one one-handed sword, or
>sword and buckler. Polearms optional. This gives the weirder fighting styles
>a chance to do something, plus gives variety. As a "just for fun" tournament,
>it's more laid back than a "let's kill everyone and be one step closer to a
>Peerage"-type tourney.
Calontir currently has two similar type tourneys: Valor Tourney,
hosted by the Barony of Vatavia, which is for bastard sword and
greatsword; and The Gathering of Chieftains, hosted by the Barony of
Three Rivers, for one-handed mass weapons and round shields. Both have
a travelling prize given to the winner.
>2.) A tournament with the winner determined not by a single-elimination or
>"most kills," but rather by a panel of judges, or, if preferred, all ladies
>present (or all non-combattants. Or all attending). Those who vote get a
>favor to hand to their favorite fighter at the end of the tournament.
>Criteria include chivalry, honor, style, spretzaturra (that's Yiddish
>Castiglione), humor, fair play, effort put forth, etc. This is more in
>keeping with period practice, as well as more fun, a better show, and leads
>more to honorable combat than cutthroat competition.
Since this seems to be a common medieval practice, it's unfortunate
that the concept is almost non-existant in the SCA. I, for one, would
like to see a lot more of this type of format used to determine
tourney winners.
> The format of such a tournament can be challenges (ideal), bear pit
>(much les ideally), or melees (where fighters are singled out for teamwork,
>sportsmanship, and tactical sense, not just flash. This is also a period
>practice).
Any of these suggestions would be better than the typical progressive
elimination format that is used most now. Can anyone document the
single elimination or double elimination formats to prior to the 19th
century?
Mikjal Annarbjorn
--
Michael A. Chance St. Louis, Missouri, USA "At play in the fields
Work: mc307a at sw1sta.sbc.com of St. Vidicon"
Play: ab899 at freenet.hsc.colorado.edu
mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Subject: Re: Alternative Tournament Formats
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 1994 22:02:05 GMT
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research
Greetings from Arval (who would really much rather spend time discussing
tournament formats)!
> While experiencing my daily hallucination/calculus class today, I
> came up with some ideas for tournaments. As this is an "informal medium"
> to discuss such things, let me spit them out here and get your responses:
Great! I should warn you in advance that my criteria for such things are
about equally how well it recreates medieval tournaments and how likely it
is that the fighters and others will enjoy it.
> 1.) A greatsword or "wacky weapons" tournament. If you're not authorized in
> greatsword, you can fight sword and dagger, or one one-handed sword, or
> sword and buckler. Polearms optional. This gives the weirder fighting styles
> a chance to do something, plus gives variety.
I recall this sort of tournament from my first years in the Society; it was
called a "Weapons Proficiency Tournament" or a "Funny Weapons Tournament".
There are period examples of tournaments held in particular weapons forms,
though the ones that I can recall required the two combattants in any joust
to use matched weapons. Many passage of arms specified that each comers
would meet a defender in a particular number of passes with each of several
weapons. Others allowed the comer to choose weapons and be met by one of
the defenders.
> 2.) A tournament with the winner determined not by a single-elimination or
> "most kills," but rather by a panel of judges, or, if preferred, all ladies
> present (or all non-combattants. Or all attending).
According to my research, this is how the prizes were awarded at every
period tournament that awarded prizes. I have yet to find a single
exception.
> Those who vote get a favor to hand to their favorite fighter at the end
> of the tournament.
That could make a nice ceremony if they did it all at the same time. I
don't know a period precedent, but it strikes me as compatible with the
romantic view of the tournament.
> Criteria include chivalry, honor, style, spretzaturra (that's Yiddish
> Castiglione), humor, fair play, effort put forth, etc.
I do not know period evidence of awarding different prizes on different
criteria, but it is deeply-ingrained tradition in the Society.
> The format of such a tournament can be challenges (ideal), bear pit
> (much les ideally), or melees (where fighters are singled out for teamwork,
> sportsmanship, and tactical sense, not just flash. This is also a period
> practice).
These choices are among the most authentic organizations for _any_
tournament, regardless of other decision. Challenges were found in very
early tournaments as a prelude to the melee, especially in romances and
probably considerly less often in reality. The "bear pit" (holding the
field) has not been shown to have happened in reality, but it is described
in literature in the late 15th century. The melee, of course, is the
earliest form of tournament. If one construes "being killed" as "being
captured", then a resurrection melee is even closer to early historical
models.
> The only problem is, I'd want to fight in it, too! Can you autocrat and
> fight?
Why on Earth not? It's not like you'll be incommunicado for hours at a time.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at watson.ibm.com
From: pwelliso at mtu.edu (PETER W. ELLISON)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Alternative Tournament Formats
Date: 22 Mar 1994 18:38:49 -0500
Organization: Michigan Technological University
TRISTAN CLAIR DE LUNE/KEN MONDSCHEIN (v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu) wrote:
:
: While experiencing my daily hallucination/calculus class today, I
: came up with some ideas for tournaments. As this is an "informal medium"
: to discuss such things, let me spit them out here and get your responses:
Our local group did a "Highlander" tournament. Rules fairly simple, edged
weapons only, lost limbs recover between rounds and only side head shots kill.
We debated allowing thrusts, not for killing but causeing the opponent
to go to thier knees (since well even immortals don't like chest wounds :)
Another way to spice up another wise dull day, have the tourney off hand
single sword, or just single sword (it been a long time since many have needed
those skills :) This also gives new fighters a slightly better chance.
We also have a "Best Death" award for most local tournaments. Another
incentive to accept death "gracefully" :) (Is it bad to win this award ? :)
While none of these suggestions are period, they can spice up the day.
Peter Petrovich ...
/ pwelliso at major.cs.mtu.edu
*####*----------------------------------------------
\ All flames etc. to /dev/null. --=}:)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Subject: Re: Medieval Tournament Style
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 1994 20:50:27 GMT
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research
Greetings from Arval! Robert FitzMorgan wrote:
> Could someone please post a good source or sources on period
> tournament styles?
The best single book on the tournament is:
Barber, Richard and Juliet Barker. 1989. Tournaments: jousts, chivalry and
pageants in the Middle Ages. New York: Weidenfeld and Nicolson.
ISBN 1-55584-400-6.
It is readable, thorough, heavily illustrated, and scholarly. If you need
a one chapter introduction to the subject, I recommend:
Keen, Maurice. 1984. Chivalry. New Haven: Yale University Press.
ISBN 0-300-03150-5.
In the SCA, you can get some excellent material by subscribing to (and
buying back issues of) Chronique, a journal of medieval chivalry editted by
Brion Thornbird and available from:
Ann-Marie Storz
1134 Tamalpais Place
Hayward, CA
USA 94542
You can also obtain a translation of the Tournament Book of King Rene'
d'Anjou by Elizabeth Bennet (Mistress Aliss Gardenere), who is presently
editor of Tournaments Illuminated.
If you want a more thorough bibliography, drop me a line direct.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at watson.ibm.com
From: Philip - Tuley (7/14/94)
To: Mark Harris
tourney ideas
On Thu, 14 Jul 1994, Mark Harris wrote:
> What's a "scorpion" melee?
A scorpion melee is one where there are two fighters up front armed each
with a sword, and one shield to work between them, and a polearmsman in
the back. The rules are that the group must stay together, and if one
dies, they are stuck where they are at.
Philip
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From: asamplas at indiana.edu (Vlad the Purple)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Polycarp-style tourney format
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 09:39:45
Organization: Indiana University
Gentles, reading in the Medieval News of the Day for 26 Jan., I saw that it
was the anniversary of the martyrdom of St. Polycarp. This prompts me to tell
of an alternative tourney format we developed in Myrkfaelinn some eleven
years ago, which people in upstate NY have found very enjoyable and which
should be fun for others.
The St. Polycarp Memorial Tournament happened about 1984 C.E. Myrkfaelinn
has had a long history of trying to find some way of fighting other than
"oh, god, another double elim...", and Maestra Niccola having found this
obscure but interestingly-named saint in a book of saint's lives (I believe
he was burned, nothing particularly striking in the way of martyrdom), we
came up with a format involving two 'orders' of knights having a tourney in
commemoration of his death.
The fighters are separated into two teams of equal numbers and equal
strengths - the latter is very important. Each team then determines a ranking
amongst its members by having them do three pickup fights with other team
members; it doesn't matter who fights who, just do three bouts. You're left
with four pools of fighters within each team who've won 3, 2, 1, and 0 fights
respectively, and they order themselves within each pool. The final round
then takes place between the two teams - the number-one ranked fighters of
each fight, then the number-twos, etc. Whichever *team* wins the most bouts
of the final round wins the tourney; there is no one individual who wins (we
typically gave out a best novice prize, however, decided by consensus among
the most experienced fighters present both within and without the group).
This format has a number of advantages over a double elim. One, everybody is
guaranteed four bouts, even if they just qualified that morning. Two, there
is no "not another 60-minute final bout between Sir Blartfart and Count
Duckplucker again!" syndrome - probably such individuals will indeed meet
in the final round and have a long bout, but there's no emotional pump of
"My God, I'm in the finals and I've got to win" to stimulate rhino-hiding, so
the fighting is much more laid-back and cleaner. Three (and most important),
if the teams were initially picked to be equal in strength, then the outcome
of the tourney will depend on the last few bouts, between the _Least
Experienced_ fighters, and they will feel really great being cheered on
by everyone because *their* bout is the Important One. At the Polycarp event
itself the outcome was decided by the last bout, and at an event using this
format three years later, if the next-to-last bout had not gone the way it
did then the deciding bout would have been between two young ladies who
had only provisionally qualified that day. Like I say, a great positive
ego stroke for new fighters.
I encourage other groups to try out the Polycarp format; I think you'll
agree with Myrkfaelinn that it's a lot of fun.
-purple
Artie Samplaski Vlad the Purple
Indiana U. School of Music Myrkfaelinn Midrealm Accounts Rep.
asamplas at indiana.edu
From: ansteorra at eden.com (3/9/95)
To: ansteorra at eden.com
RE>Tourney Query
Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn asks:
>In Tourneys, what *exactly* is a "Swiss Five", and are there different
>styles of even that use the same name?
In a word, Yes. I have been list mistress at several Guardian Tourneys,
and the most basic definition of a "Swiss Five" is that each fighter will
get to fight 5 rounds. After that basic definition is where it gets more
complex. Each round can use a completely different type of weapon style
from the one previous (ie: Sword & Shield; Single Sword; Polearm; Mass
Weapon & Shield; Florentine), or it's been done where the fighters
alternate weapon styles (ie: Sword & Shield; Mass Weapon; Sword & Shield;
Single Sword; Sword & Shield). The list can be run very structured where
everyone in round 2 uses Polearms (for example). Or it can be run very
flexible where each fighter decides what style he/she will use in each
round (and sometimes the list mistress is expected to keep track of the
style used).
Anyway that's how Swiss Five's are run up here. :-)
Estrill Swet
From: ansteorra at eden.com (3/20/95)
To: ansteorra at eden.com
RE>tourney query
Viscount Galen writes:
> Paradoxically, my biggest problems come in judged lists, which are
> probably the most authentic sort we see. Particularly those lists
> judged by non-fighters (and I am not aware of any period examples
> of non-fighters judging tournaments).
Actually, I believe that there is evidence to support non-combattant
tourney "judges". I seem to recall that Barber and Barker's book
_Tournaments_ makes mention of several tourneys which had a "ladies'
gallery" comprised (usually) of the ladies of the knights competing
and perhaps some other high-ranking noble ladies in attendance, who
watched the tourney and awarded various prizes to the contestants, for
such things as "most exciting", "most chivalrous", "most romantic",
"most noble", etc.
[ BTW, Barber and Barker's book is a must for anyone serious about
looking into actual medieval tournaments. A "coffe table" book in
size and style of prose, yet containing some of the best research
available on the subject of medieval and Renaissance tournaments in the
popular press, with an impressive bibliography. If people would like, I
can look up the publisher and ISBN info and post it here. ]
> Most judges in my experience
> have great difficulty separating those they like from those they
> don't like or don't know.
Agreed, though this very style of subjective criteria also seems to be
a strong feature of medieval tournaments which employed judges to
award prizes, and even when the prizes were awarded by the
constestants themselves. Primarily, it runs counter to the modern
American notions of "fair play", where skill alone determines the
outcome of a contest. Adjusting to this type of judging criteria for
what would seem to be a contest of skills can often be very difficult,
though I believe it to be a crucial adjustment to really understand
what it felt like to participate in a medieval tourney.
A first step is to get away from a single "grand" winner of a tourney.
Set up several smaller prizes: one from the ladies, one from the Royal
peers present, one from the Chivalry for the best non-Chivalry
entrant, one from the non-Chivalry for the best member of the Chivalry,
one from the heralds for the best heraldic display, one from the
fighters in the hosting group for the best visiting fighter, one for
the most dramatic fight, etc. If you must have a prize for the
"winner" of the tourney (be it the winner of a single/double elim style
tourney, or the person with the most/highest percentage of wins in
other styles), then just give that person a modest scroll
commemorating the event. This, coupled with the nicer prizes for other
categories, begins to de-emphasis "winning" as the most important goal
of the tournament.
There were many tournaments that had no "winners" at all, but were set
up for a knight or a group of knight to meet a challenge of some sort.
Two recent SCA examples of this type come to mind. The first was a
couple of years ago at Pennsic, then the Company of St. Michael (a
group mostly based in the East Kingdom, dedicated to better tourney
re-creations), held a pas d'armes in which they had set themselves to
meet, as a Company, a total of 50 challengers in one day. Records
were kept of who fought who, but not of who won or lost each
challenge. In the end, the company met their challenge, and, by all
accounts, everyone who participated had a great time. And there were
no "winners" declared.
The second happened just a few weeks ago in the Midrealm. King
Brannos held a "Tournament of Chivlary", similar to the one I just
described, in which the members of the Chivalry of the Midrealm stood
challenges from those who were not. Anyone could go out and challenge
any member of the Chivalry who stood ready to accept challenges, and
the Chivalry had to accept the challenge of any who approached them.
It provided an excellent venue for "rising stars" to test their skills
against the Chivalry in a less competitive environment than a "normal"
tourney, and gave the Chivalry an opportunity to observe prospective
candidates outside of the normal confines of a tourney or fighting
practice, and against a higher caliber of opponent that they might
otherwise normally face. (For you non-Chivalry fighter, consider: when
was the last time you spent an entire tourmey facing nothing but
Knights and Master-at-Arms?) Again, while I wasn't at that particular
tourney, I've yet to hear of any "winners" that were declared that day
(though I supposed the fighters that get elevated to the Chivalry
partly as a result of their efforts that day could be considered
"winners" in a sense). I understand that more of these "Tournaments of
Chivlary" are planned to be held in various parts of the Midrealm in
the future.
Mikjal Annarbjorn
--
Michael A. Chance St. Louis, Missouri, USA "At play in the fields
Work: mc307a at sw1stc.sbc.com of St. Vidicon"
Play: mchance at crl.com
From: ansteorra at eden.com (7/17/95)
To: ansteorra at eden.com
RE>A question on War
Earl Kein writes:
> Tournaments are to test individual prowess. Wars are to test
> leadership, cooperation, and strategy.
It is possible to devise a tournament that test those qualities and
abilities, as well. For instance, my brother, Baron Eirik Dweorgax,
is sponsoring and co-ordinating a series of 5-man melee tourneys in
the Middle Kingdom, partly in order to help develop small unit skills.
By adjusting the size of the teams (from 2-man teams all the way to
the perhaps 100-200 man teams that might be possible at Pennsic or
Estrella), differing combinations of qualities and abilities could be
tested. While there are skills which are necessary regardless of the
size of the team, different tactics and skill are needed for 2-man,
3-man, 5-man, 10-man, 25-man and larger sized teams. Directing the
weapons mix as part of the tourney could also be used to "force" the
appearance of certain traits you wish to observe or develop. For
example, at a recent 5-man melee tourney here sponsored by Calontir's
Iren Hirth (Huscarls - Calontir's GoA level fighting order), all of
the huscarls had to fight with four-foot axes (it being the symbol of
the order). This radically change the expected outcomes in many
cases.
A purely martial version of the Calontir Carousel (hosted here in Three
Rivers - next one this Sept. - write for more info!), which involves a
series of tests and challenges for teams of competitors (and is based,
loosely, on an actual medieval tourney format) would be another good
tournament to test "team skills".
And, of course, there's the ever popular "warlord" or progressive melee
style tourney.
> There is also nothing like the
> rush that you get when you can feel the ground rumble under the feet of
> a thousand fighters who are charging across the field.
On this, we both agree!
Mikjal Annarbjorn
--
Michael A. Chance St. Louis, Missouri, USA "At play in the fields
Work: mc307a at sw1stc.sbc.com of St. Vidicon"
Play: mchance at crl.com
From: ansteorra at eden.com (7/19/95)
To: ansteorra at eden.com
RE>Type of Tourney Question
>Could someone please explain the format of a Prize Tourney?
>
>Fionna
>Katherine Roberts
>robertsk at tamu.edu
A prize tourney can be any format, it just means that there is a prize
offered, usually several, by the group(s) sponsoring the tournament. In
the case of the Laurels' Prize tourney, the Laurels sponsored the event and
gave prizes which they had made to those who won or pleased them in some
way on the field. Very often this typ of tournament is judged.
Catherine
To: 'ansteorra'
From: KochKA at gvl.esys.com (Koch, KA Kimberly 4384)
Organization: Raytheon E-Systems, Inc.
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 11:58:02 -0500
Subject: FW: Tournaments
Amra "corrected" Earl Sir Kein by saying the good knight was redundant in
stating he liked "snowball lists and melees". Well to speak on behalf of my
brother it is Amra who needs the correction. A "snowball melee" is a tourney
wherein the first round has two fighters with the winner of that fight
becoming the captain of that team. The next round those two fighters face
another team of two fighters, the losers join the winners....and on and on
until there are just two teams to fight a grand melee at the end.
A "melee" is any number of more than two all fighting at once. A "snowball"
is just one type and a fairly unique type of melee hence the separate use of
the term.
Gunthar
From: "Michael A. Chance" <mchance at crl.com>
Subject: Re: Lyonesse was Re: principalities...border
To: ansteorra at eden.com
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 20:28:31 -0700 (PDT)
Earl Kein wrote:
> Some other judged tournaments are not done so well. I have seen judged
> tournaments in which almost no effort was made to recognise the best
> fighters on the field that day.
I agree that there can be a temptation to turn a judged tourney into a
popularity contest or to contest or to just give prizes to the
organizers favorites (which, incidentally, would make them a fine
re-creation of what often happened in period). Usually, everyone
pretty much is aware of what's happening, and the next time those same
people are involved in running a judged tourney, the turnout often
ends up be much lower than planned, as a result.
> Double elimination tournaments have the advantage that they can choose
> the best fighter on the field.
I disagree, on a number of points. Firstly, the victor of such a
tourney only has to face a small number of the total number of
entrants (e.g., the winner of a 32-man double elim faces about 7-9
different opponents). We never learn how they would have fared
against the majority of the other entrants.
Second, the format unfairly penalizes those that are "slow starters"
(those that need a few bouts to "warm up" or "get in the groove"), as
they will not be at their best in the early rounds, and could well
lose to opponents that they might otherwise best.
Third, the format allows "fast starters" (those that are able to fight
at a high speed and skill level for only a few bouts, but lack the
stamina for any more than that) to unduly influence the outcome of the
tourney, by possibly eliminating entrants in the early rounds that
they would never be able to best a few rounds later.
The best format that I've seen for determine the "best fighter" on a
given day is the open challenge format (often called a "William
Marshal" style tourney). The field is open for a set period of time
(one hour seems to be the limit for most people, though 4-6 half-hour
periods with 15-20 minute breaks also seems to work well), and
entrants may challenge as many or as few of the other entrants as they
choose. If you set a minimum number of different opponents that one
must challenge in order to qualify for the prize (say, at least 50% of
the total entrants), you then get a truer picture of everyone's prowess
on the field.
Mikjal Annarbjorn
--
Michael A. Chance St. Louis, Missouri, USA "At play in the fields
Work: mc307a at sw1stc.sbc.com of St. Vidicon"
Play: mchance at crl.com
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 15:39:59 -0500
From: Kerry Pratt <kpratt at cyberstation.net>
To: ansteorra at eden.com
Subject: Re: festival of japan
About the "festival of japan" event:
Mark Harris wrote:
> If a polearm tourney is fought using polearms, is a Shogun tourney
> fought using Shoguns? :-)
Actually, that is close to what happened. We began with a single
elimination challenge tourney. When only two individuals were left,
they became opposing warlords. The remaining fighters were randomly
split into two teams, the title of Shogun to be bestowed upon the
warlord who achieved the most victories in the two melee scenarios.
Each scenario was fought twice with the warlords changing sides each
time. The purpose being to determine which warlord could come up with
superior tactics and lead his force to victory regardless of the
fighting prowess of any individual members of his team.
The first scenario was a bridge battle. The bridge was 8 feet long, 6
feet high, and 5 feet wide. The second scenario was an open field
battle. There was much honor and glory for all of the fighters involved
and everyone displayed an amazing amount of teamwork. It is absolutely
amazing to see how much the complexion of a battle changes when there
are no shields present.
Ld Cameron de Blakstan
Subject: ANST - PENNSIC-Squire's Tourney
Date: Tue, 26 May 98 05:12:56 MST
From: jhartel <jhartel at net-link.net>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
This just came across the Middle Bridge and since it involves
squires/students who may wish to fight in the tourney at Pennsic I
thought I'd foreward it on.
Moriel***
Ree Moorhead Pruehs wrote:
> Einarr wrote to His Grace Duke Sir Logan Ebonwoulfe, asking for more
> details on how an Atlantean speed tournament was set up (this is the format
> for the Pennsic Squires' Tournament) and (for the benefit of a friend who
> is not on the Bridge) how a Knight/Master at Arms who may not be attending
> Pennsic may sponsor his/her squires to the Tournament. For the benefit of
> those who might have similar questions, His Grace's reply follows.
>
> Rhiannon Ottersdale
>
> =========================================
> First, all fighters line up in a single file line. The first and last
> fighters in line are paired off as are the second and next to last, and so on.
> All pairings meet at the same time, on the field, and a lay-on is called. The
> winners report to one side and the "not-so-winners" report to the other side.
>
> The loser of each bout must report to the MoL. We then do the line up thing
> again with the winners side and losers side. Eventually you will have a
> single representative from each side (winners and losers, or undefeated and
> defeated as we like to call it) and thus begins your final round with all
> losses erased. I am planning a best 3 of 5 with no weapons form being
> repeated more than once for the finals. We do this style (speed style) at
> most of our larger events were we have more than 50 fighters showing up for
> the list. We did this at Pennsic a couple of years ago with 120+ fighters and
> were in our finals in about 40 minutes. The advantage is that the tourney
> itself goes fast, leaving plenty of energy for pick-ups and small melee type
> stuff.
>
> As far as Knights/Masters that can't make it but have students/Squires that
> want to enter all I need is a letter/e-mail from the Chivalry member stating
> it is their desire to have their Squire enter. I have already received 6 of
> those.
[Submitted by: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>]
Subject: OK what is a Roman Melee? (Womans Tourney at Pennsic)
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 10:40:08 EDT
From: Svanhildr at aol.com
To: ironrose at webmaster.com, sca-east at indra.com, atlantia at atlantia.sca.org,
sca-aethelmearc at andrew.cmu.edu
OK a Roman Melee starts out with all fighters in a Circle...
layon is called...
And it is basically every person for them selves. You can team up
(temporarily) to beet the tougher Fighters.. But in the end only one person
can win.
After fighting a few rounds of this style Melee you can then run a finals
such as is done in Double elim to determine the winner of the over all tourney.
Winners of each Melee and the overall Victor will receive a prize. ( The
prizes will be on display at the beginning of the tourney.
Basically it is different then what has been done. Roman Melee's are not
frequently done in the SCA (at least in this region) Thought it would be good
to take away some of the Tourney Anxiety that some feel in Double elims etc.,
in hopes to draw more people out to fight. Also cuts down on choosing your
own bouts as happens in the William marshal style tourney's
Subject: Re: ANST - Mythical tourney styles
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 99 06:41:55 MST
From: "James Crouchet" <jtc at io.com>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
On 21 May 99, at 16:45, Conor na Mara wrote:
> > May '98 Steppes Warlord - "SDEL" AAAAAAHHHH!!!
> To add to (soontobesir) timo's point, don't forget that particular steppes
> warlord had 95+ fighters enter into the list. I think that had been any
> other format we would have been fighting well into the next day. So, I
> personally feel that sometimes the Double elimination style tourneys are
> needed.
<Chuckle> We actually have a format [that] is quicker, albeit more evil
still. We call it Dead Is Dead. Basically, it is single fight, single
elimination, double kills are NOT refought, byes are destructive,
wounds retained.
It is SO fast, and a little more random than a SDEL. The tourney
hawks -- you know, the guys that always seem to make the quarter
finals -- really hate it, probably because of that random element.
I think it can be fun, used in the right way. Think of being able to
have a quick tourney and STILL do more interesting fighting that
same day. But then, I don't see it as the sacred duty of each of
every tournament to carefully select the best fighter and exalt him.
It doesn't rock my world if a dark horse wins sometimes.
Don Christian Doré
Subject: Valor Wedding
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 09:33:18 -0600
From: Doug Jarvis <nasir at INFORMATICS.NET>
To: CALONTIR at crcvms.unl.edu
For those who have forgotten, didn't know, or don't read the Mews, this
weekend at Valor, Marina and I will be getting Married. Saturday around
6:00pm (after Valor tourney). Booze by Jean Michel, Food by Yessungee,
Torchlight tourney, ME dance competition, to follow the ceremony. It is
going to be a Period ME wedding (so leave your Tuxedos at home).
Sunday after HE Khulans six foot rattan tourney, there are going to be some
Brides family/Grooms family melees. Come join in the fun. The melees will
be descending rattan melees.
first melee - any non-missile weapons allowed
second - no weapons over six foot
third - no weapons over four foot
fourth - W/SH only
fifth - single sword resurrection till we drop
So come one, come all.
Nazir
Subject: The Prince's Fall Hunt Rules
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 07:32:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Duane Moore <poetamilitarus at yahoo.com>
To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org, blackhammer at juno.com
Below are the rules for Caer Mear's tradional hunt, we
hope to see many you there....
BdeB, Master of the Hunt
Fall Hunt Rules:
This is a one hour hunt with one short general break
at the thirty minute mark.
Teams and animals may hunt within the designed hunting
grounds only. This area is marked with tape.
Hunting teams may not combine forces against animals.
Animals may, however join forces against the hunters.
Hunting teams may attack weakened Animal teams (the
surviving members of a animal team from a bout just
fought) but beware, animals resurrect spontaneously.
Resurrection for hunter teams: this is a team
resurrection scenario. Once a member of a hunting
party dies he must return to Resurrection Point, and
wait for the rest of his team to return for him. A
weakened team may continue to fight, but must return
to resurrection Point before their team members may
resurrect.
Points: Pelts are gathered by defeating animals/animal
teams. Single animals and Team animals are worth a
single Pelt. The Pelt value is different for each
animal/animal team. Animals will give their Pelts to
the victorious Hunting team at the end of each bout.
Pelts will be given out for a team animal only after
the entire team is defeated. It is the Hunting Parties
responsibility to carry the Pelts back to resurrection
point so that they may be tabulated by the MOL. Pelts
do not have to be immediately carried back to the
Point to count, but should be returned as soon as is
convenient (after Resurrection.)
At the end of the hunt it is each Hunting team is
responsiably to chose a Funniest Animal/Animal team,
and report this to the Master of the Hunt.
Hunting parties:
Hunting teams consist of one Hunter and two mastiffs.
Hunters: use short (7 foot) spears, or polearms, if
desired. Any polearm used by the Hunter must have a
thrusting tip.
Mastiffs: Two fighters who may carry any weapons form
they desire.
Animals:
Turtle: (1pt.) The turtles shell protects it's torso,
and limbs (Only blows to the head count.), however; the
ponderous turtles shell limits it's movement to a
single step. Beware, the snap of the turtle is
vicious, and kills with only a touch. The turtle also
has the ability to challenge any hunting team to
single combat.
Poachers: (1pt) To our noble hunters these villains
are naught but animals, and there heads carry a price.
These archers may be killed with a touch.
Boars: (3pts) The fierce boar dies only to thrusts to
the torso. (This fighter carries weapon and shield.)
Stags: (3pts) The antlers of the Stag protect it from
all head blows. (this fighter carries two-weapon.)
Moose: (3pts) The antlers of the Moose protect it from
all head blows. (this fighter carries a polearm.)
Mad Cow: (3pts) The old Brown cow has seen better
days, and now roves the woods wildly. It's horn's
protect it's head from all blows. The Cow may be
tipped if caught unaware to gain it's pelt.
Wolves: (3pts) The only team to actively hunt the
Hunters! These wolves fiercely attack any unwary
Hunters who cross their path. All regular combat
conventions apply.(three man team)
Chicks: (5pts) These chicks die to any normal blow to
any legal target (including limbs), however; if the
head is cut off (any legal head blow) the chick
continues to live for one minute in which all it's
blows are still good, but can not be killed
again.(three man team)
Bears: (5pts)The Bear and it's Cubs are protected from
all head blows by the extra plate of bone, in the
stubborn bear's head.(three man team)
Lions: (5pts) The fierce Lion will protect it's cubs
to the death. The cubs only die after the Lion
dies.(three man team)
=====
Master Bryce de Byram, OL (Duane M. Moore)
Mooselodge, Atlantia
"My Leige-lord has called me to fight at his side,
and full-burdened with armour and weapons I ride.
My blood in my body, my sword they are sworn,
Oh his foeman, my foeman, his causes my own, are my own...."
-Duke Conn MacNiall, OL
From: Avery Gwenneth <bb.bryngwlad at gmail.com>
Date: October 19, 2009 10:07:56 AM CDT
To: bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Bryn-gwlad] Danger! Zombies Ahead!
Yes, it's almost time for the 2nd Annual Bryn Gwlad Zombie Tournament!
This will be held the Tuesday between the Fall Event and Halloween, a
week from tomorrow, October 27, at 7:30 pm, at our regular practice
site.
There will be both heavy and rapier tournaments. The format will be
the same as last year, although we may make some minor changes if the
numbers don't work out right.
They will be basically snowball melees. First round: one on one. The
loser then becomes a zombie fighting for the winner. Second round:
two on two. The winner now has a zombie army of three.
Zombies can only use clubs or other blunt instruments (single sword
for heavy, boffer item for rapier). Leg wounds do not ground zombies,
but they have to lurch around, dragging the injured limb. Zombies
who are injured can be healed by the Zombie Masters, unless they are
killed with head shots, in which case they are dead until the next
round. Zombies must be controlled by specific orders. If the Zombie
Master stops controlling them, they can go amok. The main idea is to
have fun. The more creative that the zombies are in interpretation of
the orders given, the better.
If anyone can bring out boffer items for the zombies to use, we would
appreciate it.
There will be prizes for the two surviving Zombie Masters (rapier and
heavy) and for the Best Zombie, with minor prizes for other zombies
that impress us. You have a week to practice your lurching and
groaning.
Brainsss . . . .
Avery and Gwenneth
Baron and Baroness
From: "Terrell" <aesop_2000 at yahoo.com>
Date: August 10, 2009 2:53:44 PM CDT
To: trimaris-temp at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [SPAM] [tri-temp] dog ball
Coinneach, "Dogball" is a heavy weapons game based upon the movie "Blood of Heroes". It is a team sport played with a "dog's skull" (usually foam and duct tape).
The object is to get the "skull" on the opposing team's "spike" (usually a bucket or a box...).
There are 5 players per team:
The Quick - the only person who can touch the "skull". He is armed with a single sword, no thrusting tip. There is the Drive and the Back Drive, who can be armed with a variety of weapons, depending on which set of rules you're using. (This game 'originated' in several different kingdoms at once.) Most often you see them with Bastard Swords. They are, to borrow a football term, the linebackers. Next we have the juggernaut of the team, The Slash - armed with a polearm. Finally, there is the defensive player, The Chain, who protects the spike, and the Quick - usually florentine.
Once "killed", a player must "die", but can rise immediately - unless pinned by an opposing player, who simply holds a weapon upon his body. In such a case, the "dead" player must remain upon the ground, until released, or rescued by a team member. (As soon as the opposing player's weapon leaves your body, you can rise.)
If the Quick is killed, he must release the skull.
Points are scored by the Quick depositing the dogball in the opposing teams "spike". There are a few more rules, but that is basically it...
Turold
From: "Alasdair" <alasdair at bmhanson.net>
Date: June 27, 2009 2:46:54 PM CDT
To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Ansteorra] Fw: XXXth year List Babe Tourney format
Forwarded by request. please reply to her directly with any questions.
FROM: "Michelle M. Hanson" <chelle at bmhanson.net>
TO: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org
DATE: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 16:57:01 -0500
SUBJECT: XXXth year List Babe Tourney format
Swiss Five format -- plan on having fun!!! We look forward to seeing
you there.
Round 1 – Damsel in Distress – Fighters must rescue the
damsel from certain doom
Round 2 – Stick Horse – Fighters must stay on their horse
at all times; should the horse falter or die, fighter's legs are
“broken” and must stay on their knees
Round 3 – Roll a Weapon – Fighters roll dice to determine
the weapon to be used in their offhand during the round
Round 4 – Quagmire Battle – Fighters are magically
transported to a swamp far away. During this battle, fighters will have a
limited time in which to defeat their opponent before they become stuck in
the mud and begin to sink to their doom.
Round 5 – Snowboil - not a typo, based on a snowball melee
Winners will be determined on a point basis.
From: mark at SCHULDY.ORG
Date: March 24, 2011 4:23:25 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Deed of Arms at Coronation
On Thu, 24 Mar 2011 16:16:34 -0500, Roberta Lauderdale
<bertlaud at COMCAST.NET> wrote:
<<< Would someone please explain "Deed of Arms" to me? Is it a type of
tournament? >>>
It is a formalized style of tournament. In the SCA they are often
showcases for particular types of later period or authentic armor,
as well as sometimes using forms of medieval combat that are more
authentic in style or rules than our regular rules.
Depending upon the time frame, authenticity and occasion, people
might create a retinue, make a more formal presentation, or
fight in formal groups with a noble sponsor.
Some of the latter period formal tournaments were actually part
theatrical spectacles, and were used to help commemorate notable
events or visitations.
I have no knowledge what the plans for this particular behourd
might be.
Tibor (This is the stuff I heraldically live for.)
From: <bsmall at suddenlink.net>
Date: October 30, 2011 6:47:00 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Tourney formats?
---- Tim McDaniel <tmcd at panix.com> wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2011, bsmall at suddenlink.net wrote:
<< The next day, using a preliminary bear pit style >>
<<< "Preliminary" bear pit? Is there a page anywhere that describes the different tournament formats that have been used in the SCA?
Danielis Lincolinum
To be a bit clearer, everyone was divided into 4 fields at Hector's King's Champion and each field was fought bearpit for a specific time. Then the top records went on to the regular elimination portion of the tournament. Shea wound up the eventual victor.
As for the different tournament formats, it would be interesting to see a list of all the different formats used in various tourneys over the years. I know I've seen quite a few tourneys with interesting twists over time. :)
Ansgar
From: Dulcia MacPherson <countessdulcia at gmail.com>
Date: February 8, 2012 2:45:06 PM CST
To: the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {TheTriskeleTavern} Top 10 Reasons to attend St. Val's on Feb. 25th
<<< I heard tell there would be some kind of ransoming going on.....and a tavern....what's the scoop?
Lady Alianore >>>
Well, we're holding a 13th century themed event, so all our tournaments are as much like the ones from the 13th century as we can make them. But that doesn't mean boring! Essentially they are what we (in the SCA) call William Marshal-style tournaments. We just aren't CALLING them William Marshal tournaments because, well, in our part of the 13th century William Marshal is alive and well so that would just be weird!
In case you aren't familiar with them, most SCA William Marshal-style tournaments assign a "value" to various fighters based on their SCA rank and you get so many points for defeating an opponent, depending on their "value". The winner is the fighter with the highest point count at the end of the tournament. This all comes from King Richard I's laws regarding tournaments in England. Tournaments had been banned by the Pope and were illegal in most Christian countries, but King Richard didn't want to ban them... he just wanted to control them a bit. So he required everyone who fought in a tournament to pay a fee based on their rank, to swear a an oath of conduct, and to listen to a priest read the Pro Forma Bans against tournaments.
To add a little more real medieval flavor to the event, we're going to do what was done under King Richard's rules (which were still in force while young King Edward III was a child and William Marshal was his Regent). Everyone will "pay" their "fee" using the "Baronial Coinage" provided as their site tokens. They'll swear the oath, and listen to the Pro Forma Bans (which they'll ignore, just like their medieval counterparts did!), and then they'll fight! In the 13th century defeating another fighter meant that he owed you a ransom. You could take his armor, his weapons, his horse, or large amounts of money, if he had it. That's how William Marshal, who was born a younger son of a minor noble, eventually became one of the richest and highest ranking men in England!
In our version you won't get rich, but you are expected to offer ransoms when you lose! The winner has to agree to the ransom, but it can be anything you both agree to, such as: a dozen cookies, a poem dedicated to your lady, help setting up your tent and taking it down again at Gulf Wars, working as part of your event crew for a future event, or making a donation of cash or alcohol for the Known World Party at Gulf Wars. Anything you both agree on! Ransoms will be recorded by heralds on the field.
So get your ransoms ready and join An Crosaire for a lot of fun!
Dulcia
PS - I heard that you know something about the tavern, Lady Alianore, maybe you can tell us something about that!
From: Sarah Gutekunst <gutekunst at GPCOM.NET>
Subject: [CALONTIR] A Year Long Tournament of the Behourd
Date: August 27, 2012 10:49:26 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
The Barony of Mag Mor is sponsoring a Tournament of the Behourd!
His Lordship Duncan Eardstapa once told me of an evil nightmare that visited him one night. He was fighting in the host of Calontir. He looked to his left and found he did not recognize the spearman who stood there. He looked to his right, sure to see a Huscarl or Fyrdman known to him. But again, he did not know that warrior. He then stepped back, looked all around and realized he knew no one by name. With the clarity that dreams bring, he realized something even worse; no one knew him!
This is a nightmare that must never come to pass! As Duncans old home, the Barony of Mag Mor is sponsoring a Behourd.
In period the Behourd took many forms, but one common thread is that the type of combat was closely related to ours; done with mock weapons made of wood or whale bone, in single combat or large melees. The Behourd was used to bond armies together, to bring unity to fighters from disparate areas. Even in times past, it was well known that crossing swords forged strong bonds.
This Behourd will be a year long tournament that is open to every authorized fighter of Calontir and the Iren Fera. The goal is to find, meet and fight the most Calontiri. This can be done at events, foreign wars, fighter practices, or back yards. It matters not if it is but one fight or many. The only caveat is that you must be in legal armor, fighting one-on-one with legal rattan weapons.
In some Behourds the combatants wore bells so that innocent bystanders could hear them coming and get out of the way. For the sake of history, we are encouraging fighters to wear bells. This will bring attention to the Behourd and spread the word.
The Kingdom has been kind enough to supply us with a list of Calontir Fighters. For copies of this book, go to www.MagMor.net to print a copy for yourself. If you find that you are not in the book, please email me with your information so we can get the book updated: behourd at hotmail.com After you are done fighting, just check your opponents name. If he is not listed in the book, write their name in.
The winner of the Behourd will be declared at Cattle Raids 2013. Please bring your books and turn them in at troll. If you won’t make it to the event, please mail them by 15th day of August 2013 to;
Randwulf
c/o Ralph Gutekunst
941 Chestnut St
North Bend, NE
68649
After the Behourd is finished and all the books have been tabulated there will be a prize for the Calontiri who has fought the most of their brethren. A prize will also be awarded to the Fyrdman and Man-At-Arms who lead their brethren in Calontiri fought. Every fighter who turns in a book will be given a pilgrims badge to show that they participated in this Behourd. Owners of books received after Cattle Raids will be awarded pilgrims badges, but will not be eligible for the competition.
I hope you all engage in this Tournament and use it to find deeper meaning in our Society and more friends to gather with around the fire.
Randwulf and Seraphina
Many thanks to His Lordship Duncan Eardstapa for inspiring this Behourd.
<the end>