cl-Moorish-msg - 11/24/97
Clothing of the Moors and Arabs.
NOTE: See also the files: cl-Spain-msg, clothing-msg, turbans-msg, Moors-msg, Middle-East-msg, Islam-msg, Spain-msg, Turkey-msg, Africa-msg.
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Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: kharding at lamar.ColoState.EDU (Karol Harding)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Moorish/Andalusian garb
Date: 13 Dec 1994 19:16:00 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523
Brent Kellmer (kellmer at u.washington.edu) wrote:
: Greetings to all on this bridge from Rodrigo Ramirez de Valencia!
: I am in need of some assistance with moorish garb to go along with my
: 12th night outfit. I'm a very lat 11th cent. Castilian who would have
: worked both sides of the fence -- for moorish rulers as well as
: Christian. What I'm trying to find is some sort of "over-robe" that I
: could wear along with my tunic during non-court functions.
When I researched Moorish, or tried to, I found nothing except a
Jewish book on costume that referred to the Jewish woman pictured
as "wearing basically the same thing as Moorish and Morroccan"
women....that being one or more vests, large flared sleeve blouses,
etc. I don't remember what the men were wearing, if they were
mentioned. Frankly, no one seems to know exactly what Turkish
women were wearing before 1600, or really what Egyptians were wearing
after the pharaohs and before the 19th century. ...so I am highly suspicious
of anyone who claims that "aba's aren't period"???? How would they
know? Is there some documentation on these garments that I
missed????
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Subject: Re: Moorish/Andalusian garb
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 15:34:21 GMT
Chala writes:
"Frankly, no one seems to know exactly what Turkish women were
wearing before 1600, or really what Egyptians were wearing after the
pharaohs and before the 19th century. ...so I am highly suspicious of
anyone who claims that "aba's aren't period"???? How would they know?
Is there some documentation on these garments that I missed????"
Yes, quite a lot. Nicholas de Nicolay (sp?), _Nauigations in Turkie_,
has many drawings of people from the Ottoman Empire just before 1600.
There is lots of surviving art from period Islam, with many pictures
of people from which one can learn something about their clothing.
There are also surviving garments. The Royal Ontario Museum, for
example, in their book _To Cut My Cote_ , show drawings of an
Egyptian shirt, I think 11th or 12th century, from their collection.
Of course, none of this could prove that aba's are not period, even
if it were true--there would always be the possibility that we had
just not come across the right piece of evidence. It is generally
hard to prove a negative. But if one is trying to do a good job of
wearing period garb, as Rodrigo apparently is, it is not sufficient
to say "I am not sure this is out of period, so I will wear it." The
question is whether you have good reason to believe it is in period.
David/Cariadoc
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Subject: Re: Moorish/Andalusian garb
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 15:26:02 GMT
Rodrigo asks whether the Abba is period for late 11th c. Moors. I
have the following bits of information, mostly from memory.
1. The word is used in some documents from the Cairo Geniza, c. 1100.
2. A garment pretty close to an Abba is shown in Nicholas de Nicolet
(sp?), _Nauigations in Turkie_, c. 1580.
3. An exhibit on Islamic textiles at the Cleveland Museum of Art had
a picture of a garment in the Met, dated as probably 1094-1101, which
they called a Tiraz garment because of its ornamentation but which
had the form of an Abba.
Incidentally, the construction of that garment was from one piece of
cloth, whose width was the height of the garment. The slits for the
arm holes appeared to have been woven into the cloth. That is not the
way I show the construction in my article in the Islamic CA and the
Miscellany, which was written before I saw that picture.
None of these is specifically western islamic; I do not think I have
yet found any specific evidence of the Abba in perod west of Cairo.
All I can suggest is looking through books of Islamic art for western
pictures, carved ivory caskets, etc, that have figures wearing
recognizable clothing.
I believe thhat "abbiya" is simply a different transliteration of the
same word as "abba."
Good luck. If you find anything, let us all know.
David/Cariadoc
From: manderson2 at aol.com (MAnderson2)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Moorish/Andalusian garb
Date: 16 Dec 1994 03:15:17 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
In article <3cki39$96f at nntp1.u.washington.edu>, kellmer at u.washington.edu
(Brent Kellmer) writes:
>Does anyone out there with experience in islamic costuming have any
>suggestions? Is the abba (or more specifically, this type of robe)
>period? Failing that, is there a period equivalent?
I would suggest the following books as references:
Historic Persian Dress 1200-1650 by Linda Hendrick
The Silk Road: a History by Irene M. Franck and David M. Brownstone
Constantinople City on the Golden Horn by David Jacobs
Women in Islam by Wiebke Walther
My wife used them when researching Arabic costumes.
Bernard the Nameless
(mka Mark T. Anderson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Subject: Re: Moorish/Andalusian garb
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 17:53:41 GMT
Rodrigo asks about my source from the CMA. It was a temporary
exhibit; the information about the garment in the Met was on the
wall, next to a fragment of a similar garment that was part of the
display. I did, however, photograph it--as well as several period
Islamic caps. I can send you one of the pictures of the abba/tiraz
garment if you EMail me your address.
For additional information on the garment in the Met, you should
probably contact them.
He writes:
"The whole thing actually started because I asked someone a minor
question about the making of an abba and was told "but you know
those aren't period. . ." And the individual went on to say that
the name existed in period, but there weren't any representations of
it in period."
One should be suspicious of that strong a statement. It might
possibly be based on something I said, prior to having seen the CMA
exhibit a year or two back. But what I said would have been that I
knew the name was period and did not know for certain that the
garment was--which is a long way from knowing for certain that it is
not.
David/Cariadoc
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: DDFr at Midway.UChicago.edu (David Friedman)
Subject: Re: Arabic Clothing.
Organization: University of Chicago Law School
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 16:18:37 GMT
> Can anybody suggest a book or two for Arabic Garb.
I don't know of an Arabic costume book in English. There is one scholarly
work on Islamic costume in a particular period: _Mameluke Costume_ by Meyer
(sp?), but that is a verbal description of what we know and how, not
pictures of garb (aside from a few photos in the back). _To Cut My Cote_
from the Royal Ontario Museum (I may not have the title exactly right) has
a cutting pattern for one garment, I think 11th century Egyptian , in their
collection. Mostly, you have to find period pictures and work from there.
My favorite source is a book called _Arab Painting_.
> By the way, what would an
> Arabic Court Baron wear?
What would an English Court Baron wear? So far as I know, both are
imaginary; I think "Court Baron" is an SCA invention, although I could be
wrong. What actual Muslim rank do you want to assume it corresponds to?
"Arab" is a pretty vague term. When and wear do you assume you are from?
> Did the Arabs use Coronets or anything close?
Good question. Off hand I can't think of any examples.
> Baron Achbar ibn Ali
--
David/Cariadoc
DDFr at Midway.UChicago.Edu
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:03:12 -0700
From: Brett and Karen Williams <brettwi at ix.netcom.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Moorish clothing
Lynn Douglass wrote:
> I'm a newbie working on a Moorish persona from mid to late 11th century
> al-Andalus (Cordoba). I am looking for help with garb ideas. Anyone willing
> or able to correspond with me? Also, I am not an experience seamstress.
> Thanks in advance.
>
> 'Ijliyah of Dreiburgen
> ldouglas at wiley.csusb.edu
Ooh, you're at a university. I envy you your ILL capability!
If you can make the trip out to one of the Company of Clothier meetings
[ciorstan says, ruthlessly volunteering someone else! :)], a lot of the
best costuming minds in our Kingdom assemble at the CoC meetings to
discuss turning cloth into clothes suitable for Society purposes.
Alas, most of the easily available sources are masculine rather than
feminine. More to the immediate point, however-- if I may point you to a
few books and a pattern, there is a Vogue very easy caftan pattern in
the leisure wear/sleepwear section that's been in print for ages and
ages (I don't have a copy myself or I'd cite the pattern number). The
neck treatment isn't quite what I would want (I'd lose the rectangular
look to the reverse facing, if memory serves, and round it off), however
the overall look of the garment is acceptable for a Moorish persona, if
properly accessorized. (grin)
However, even more to the point, in Dorothy Burnham's small book called
_Cut My Cote_, ISBN -- shoot. My copy lacks an ISBN, which is weird, cos
I got it from Halcyon Yarn about a year ago, to replace one I'd lost
that I'd bought from the Los Angeles County Museum of Art's deadly
little bookstore (deadly to my wallet, that is...the only one worse is
the Getty!). Anyway, it's a publication put out by the Textile
Department of the Royal Ontario Museum and contains pattern diagrams
for, among other things, a 4th century Coptic shirt, an Egyptian Islamic
shirt dated from the 10th to 12th century, an Egyptian Coptic shirt from
the 5th-6th century and a few women's garments that could conjecturally
have been cut in the manner given in period but date firmly OOP. A
fascinating little book. Given a 20" to 27" fabric (loom) width, most of
the garments in _Cut My Cote_ can be very economically cut.
There is also a Islamic man's period shirt discussed in _Cloth and
Clothing in Medieval Europe: Essays in Memory of Professor E.M.
Carus-Wilson, Studies in Textile History 2_, ed. N.B. Harte and K.G.
Ponting, London, Heinemann Educational Books, 1983. I looked at this via
interlibrary loan about a year ago, being mostly interested in the essay
by Inga Haegg, "Viking Women's Dress at Birka: A Reconstruction by
Archeological Methods", which firmly refutes the flapping rectangular
Viking apron dress commonly seen in the SCA. But that's another
discussion... :) *sigh*
Hope this helps for the nonce.
ciorstan
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 01:16:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: DianaFiona at aol.com
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Moorish clothing
<<
However, even more to the point, in Dorothy Burnham's small book called
_Cut My Cote_, ISBN - shoot. My copy lacks an ISBN, which is weird, cos
I got it from Halcyon Yarn about a year ago, to replace one I'd lost
that I'd bought from the Los Angeles County Museum of Art's deadly
little bookstore (deadly to my wallet, that is...the only one worse is
the Getty!).>>>
This is also available from an SCA source, if you are like me and like to encourage our merchants so that they keep offering us all these wonderful things! ;-) Small Churl Books has it and a bunch of other drool-producing items, many of which are at greatly reduced prices.Their address is: Carol Thomas, 1642 Storrs, CT 06268. Ldy Carllein's e-mail address is: scbooks at neca.com
ciorstan
Ldy Diana, sweltering in the Meridian sun
<the end>