Moors-msg - 2/4/08
Period Culture and clothing of the Moors.
NOTE: See also the files: cl-Moorish-msg, Spain-msg, Arabs-msg, Palestine-msg, ME-feasts-msg, fd-Morocco-msg.
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From: ddfr at best.com (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Spanish/Moorish Costume--sources?
Date: 4 Apr 1996 06:54:19 GMT
> She would like to find information/sources/advice concerning costuming in
> Spain during the Moorish era...more specifically, during the 10th-11th
> centuries. As I understand the Muslim religion, they are restricted from
> representing the human form in their art, thus she hasn't been able to
> find any paintings, etc.
>
> In Service
> Gwennan ferch Gwydion O'Ddyved
Me too.
There is a ceiling, I think of a cathedral in Sicily, that has paintings
of a bunch of Muslim men in garb, not too far off your date. There is an
Andalusian ivory casket with carvings, but it is hard to tell much from
them. My suggestion is to look through Islamic art books searching for
such things.
Some books that may help, but not very much, are:
Arab Painting, Richard Ettinghausen, Macmillan, London 1977.
Islam Stoffe aus gyptischen Grbern by Ernst Khnel, 1927: Berlin Verlag
Ernst Wasmuth. (right date, wrong part of al-Islam)
Cut My Cote, Dorothy K. Burnham, Textile Department, Royal Ontario Museum,
Toronto. (pattern for one garment, right date, wrong part of al-Islam)
Le Costume: Coupes et Formes, de L'Antiquit aux Temps Modernes, Max
Tilke, ditions Albert Moranc, Paris 1967. This is a wonderful book, full
of detailed photographs of real garments. Unfortunately, most of them are
out of period.
I wish your friend good fortune in her search.
David/Cariadoc (Moor, c. 1100)
--
ddfr at best.com
From: kellmer at u.washington.edu (Brent Kellmer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Spanish/Moorish Costume--sources?
Date: 5 Apr 1996 21:24:23 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Another good sources, probably with pictures of the andalusian casket that
Cariadoc mentioned is _The Art of al-Andalus_, a truly wonderful book on
moorish art, architecture, etc. up through the capture of Granada. There
are photos of some extant garments, although later than you want, but
there are several casks, boxes, etc. that have human figures on them.
--Rodrigo Ramirez de Valencia
kellmer at u.washington.edu
From: bsibly at chch.planet.org.nz (Belinda Sibly)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Spanish/Moorish Costume--sources?
Date: 8 Apr 1996 04:42:34 GMT
Organization: PlaNet(NZ) Canterbury
>She would like to find information/sources/advice concerning costuming in
>Spain during the Moorish era...more specifically, during the 10th-11th
>centuries. As I understand the Muslim religion, they are restricted from
>representing the human form in their art, thus she hasn't been able to
>find any paintings, etc.
I have a number of pictures out of various bboks from Ibn Wasiti's 13th
cntury illuminatied edition of al-Hariri's Maqamat. None of the notes tell me
exactly were in the Moslem world there are ment to be but I have good pictures
of mounted soldiers, merchant's haggling, musicina's and drinkers, men
studying in a libray, a slave market, a family dinning and travellers on the
road. In many of the pictures some of the people have halo's so I take it they
are story's from the life of Mohammed. There is lots of clothing, some of it
quite detailed.
The men are generally wearing long robes almost to the floor, with wide
sleeves, decorated around the biceps with braid(?) which is decorated with
arab script. They have white under robes which show about two inches below
the robes. Both robes are very full. Some men also wear a long piece of fabric
draped like one of those roman palas? shawels? Edged with more braid? All the
men wear turbans in the "India during the Raj" style.
There are fewer women shown. They have robes similar to the mens but tighter.
Sleeves are tight at the cuffs and again have the braid at the biceps. The
women wear strange tall hats which I can only discribe as tit shaped, complete
with a "nipple" on top. Oh yes, the women aren't covered up particularly. You
can see there faces and hands.There cloths are rather more figure hugging than
the mens.
Both sexes wear "slippers" with cover the toes, heels and sole of the foot but
not much more, sort of like lady's court shoes ( in the modern sence) but with
out heels.
That might not be what you're looking for, but it's somewhere to start.
From: ddfr at best.com (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Spanish/Moorish Costume--sources?
Date: 9 Apr 1996 01:06:47 GMT
bsibly at chch.planet.org.nz (Belinda Sibly) wrote:
> The men are generally wearing long robes almost to the floor, with wide
> sleeves, decorated around the biceps with braid(?) which is decorated with
> arab script.
Sounds like a Tiraz band. I think it was woven in.
David/Cariadoc
--
ddfr at best.com
From: priest at vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Spanish/Moorish Costume--sources?
Date: 10 Apr 1996 11:59:01 GMT
Organization: Vassar College
Greeting from Thora Sharptooth!
David/Cariadoc (ddfr at best.com) wrote:
In article <ddfr-0804961805520001 at ddfr.vip.best.com>, says...
>> The men are generally wearing long robes almost to the floor, with wide
>> sleeves, decorated around the biceps with braid(?) which is decorated
>> with arab script.
>
>Sounds like a Tiraz band. I think it was woven in.
Although most of the extant "tiraz" bands now in museums are woven-in, there
do exist a few embroidered ones too. Embroidered ones could be worked
directly onto the ground fabric or onto strips that were then applied to the
garment. Also, sometimes woven tiraz bands were removed from their original
fabric and used as applique on another fabric.
The woven-in bands were the most prestigious type, because they were more
likely to have originated at a royal (or noble) workshop.
***************************************************************************
Carolyn Priest-Dorman Thora Sharptooth
priest at vassar.edu Frostahlid, Austrrik
Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or
***************************************************************************
From: brettwi at ix.netcom.com(Brett Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Spanish/Moorish Costume--sources?
Date: 11 Apr 1996 16:00:51 GMT
ddfr at best.com (David Friedman) writes:
>bsibly at chch.planet.org.nz (Belinda Sibly) wrote:
>
>> The men are generally wearing long robes almost to the floor, with
>>wide sleeves, decorated around the biceps with braid(?) which is
>>decorated with arab script.
>
>Sounds like a Tiraz band. I think it was woven in.
>
>David/Cariadoc
Your Grace, have you seen the photographs in the essay "Medieval
Garments in the Mediterranean World", pp. 279-315 in _Cloth and
Clothing in Medieval Europe, Essays in Memory of Professor E. M.
Carus-Wilson_? There are some excellent clear black and white pictures
and schematic cutting diagrams of surviving shirt/tunics of your
interest from Byzantine period all the way through 19th Century.
Dry, but informative.
ciorstan
From: "Christopher A. Owens" <cowens at netset.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 10 th Century Moorish Costume
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 03:09:31 -0800
Maturin Kerbouchard wrote:
> I am searching for the patterns and Materials used to design the
> costumes worn by the character "Azim" in the movie Robin hood, prince
> of thieves.
> The local libraries have not been of much help and I am at a loss as
> to what to do. I can roughly copy the movie but I am not too sure how
> close I can come and I am not to sure as to how authentic it is.
Just a nit here; the character Morgan Freeman played in "Robin Hood"
wasn't Moorish in the proper sense. A "Moor" specifically reffered to
muslim inhabitants of the Iberian penninsula between 722 and 1492. It's
true that eventually the word "moor" came to mean all muslims and later
blacks in particular, but this is not its orignial meaning.
As to who "Azim" was, from the initiation scars on his face
coupled with his religion, I would *guess* he would hail from the
Southern Nile river Valley (Which, before Salah Al'din's conquest of the
area between the 2nd and 3rd Crusades included several Coptic Cristian
Kingdoms). This would probably make him a warrior of the Egytian Fatimid
Caliphate, which was destroyed by the Turks not long before. This would
explain his imprisonment and why he couldn't return. But this is all
conjecture of course.
If you want a 10th century (Spanish) Moorish persona, the country
you would be living in would be Andalusia (Arabic al'Andalus) during the
time of Umayadd (sp?) Caliphate. Your persona could be of either North
African, Arabic, or European background and could be of the Muslim,
Christian, or Jewish faith.
In any case, if anyone has any costuming tips for 10th century
(AD) Andalusian personas I'd be interested as well.
-At your service,
Shiraz Ali al'Rachid
All constructive responses welcome!
P.S. Back to Azim, his scimitar, if it was period at all, would not have
been used for fighting, its closest relative is an executioner's
scimitar. As a general rule, Islamic fighters used straight swords for
fighting on foot and curved sabre-styled swords for fighting from
horseback.
From: DDFr at Best.com (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 10 th Century Moorish Costume
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 00:50:13 -0800
Organization: School of Law, Santa Clara University
"Christopher A. Owens" <cowens at netset.com> wrote:
> Just a nit here; the character Morgan Freeman played in "Robin Hood"
> wasn't Moorish in the proper sense. A "Moor" specifically reffered to
> muslim inhabitants of the Iberian penninsula between 722 and 1492.
I don't think that is correct. The term is presumably related to
"Mauritania," the name of North Africa in classic antiquity. In any case,
it is quite commonly used for North African berbers, as well as for berbers
in al-Andalus, and perhaps (as you imply) for non-berber Muslims in
al-Andalus as well.
>This would probably make him a warrior of the Egytian Fatimid
> Caliphate, which was destroyed by the Turks not long before.
Actually, Saladin was a Kurd, although it is true that he was, at least
nominally, working for a Turk at the time he put the Fatimid Caliphate out
of its misery.
> This would
> explain his imprisonment and why he couldn't return.
Why? Saladin took over Egypt, army included.
In any case, if this is happening in the 10th century the Fatimid Caliphate
is still going strong, and will be for another century or two.
I'm pretty sure that there was a black military unit involved in Abbasid
politics that eventually got wiped out, but I would have to do some looking
to find the relevant date.
> P.S. Back to Azim, his scimitar, if it was period at all, would not have
> been used for fighting, its closest relative is an executioner's
> scimitar. As a general rule, Islamic fighters used straight swords for
> fighting on foot and curved sabre-styled swords for fighting from
> horseback.
What are your sources for curved swords used for fighting from horseback in
the 10th century Islamic world? I think there is a Khazar grave find of a
curved sword that early, but my impression is that they didn't become
common until quite a lot later. I can probably dig up sources if you want.
David/Cariadoc
From: DDFr at Best.com (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 10 th Century Moorish Costume
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 10:49:35 -0800
Organization: School of Law, Santa Clara University
"Christopher A. Owens" <cowens at netset.com> wrote:
> David Friedman wrote:
...
> > What are your sources for curved swords used for fighting from horseback in
> > the 10th century Islamic world? I think there is a Khazar grave find of a
> > curved sword that early, but my impression is that they didn't become
> > common until quite a lot later. I can probably dig up sources if you want.
> The source I've gotten the most use out of has been the "Men at Arms
> Series" (Osprey) #125; which gives several illustrations of curved swords
> , primarily of Turkish origin, between the 9th and 11th centuries.
> Straight sword- infantry, curved sword- Cavalry disticintion, I admitt
> that I'm making a guess based on illustrations, historical reports of
> tactics, and the relative usefullness of each weapon in these situations.
You might want to look at An Introduction to Arms and Warfare in Classical
Islam, by David Nicolle, in _Islamic Arms and Armor_. I think the same
book also has a separate article on the question of the curved sword. I
don't have the book here, but my memory is that curved swords begin to
become common in the Islamic world around the thirteenth century.
Does the Osprey book give its sources?
David/Cariadoc
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: bq676 at torfree.net (Kristine E. Maitland)
Subject: Moors -- definition
Organization: Toronto Free-Net
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 22:37:17 GMT
Buona sera.
Let's nip this "moor" thing in the bud, shall we? ;-> Here's a truncated
version of Kenneth Baxter Wolf's words on the subject (see "The 'Moors'
of West Africa and the beginnings of the Portuguese slave trade." in
_Journal of Medieval and Renaissance Studies_ 24:3, Fall 1994).
According to Wolf:
1. The term "moor" started life from the latin _maurus_, which in Roman
times referred to those who lived in Mauretania (now Algeria and NE Morroco).
Isidore of Seville (7th c.) "derived _maurus_ from the Greek _mauros_ for
'black', an early instance of what would become a common medieval
European association between _mauri_ and dark skin".
2. Starting in 711, with the influx of invaders to Spain the term
covered more ground -- first referring to the Berbers, then the Arabs.
Up to the 8th _mauri_ and _arabes_ were distinct -- after that the
distinction blurred. Plus "due to the growing percentage of sub-Saharan
blacks among the slave population in Morocco and Granada, the category of
'Moor' was stretched to accommodate 'black Moors'."
3. After 711, "moor" had religious connotations. With the crusades
'moors' were "enemies of the Faith". So a black could be a moor and yet
not a moor -- sometimes Europeans weren't too sure whether to use the
moor in referance to black africans.
My own reading also suggests that a distinction was later made between
"white moors" and "black moors" -- the later term "blackamoor" would be
redundant otherwise. In the British Isles (specificly Scotland starting
in the 15th century) blacks were often the surname Moore/More.
Hope that clears up a few things.
Inez Rosanera
Ealdormere
From: David Friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Black Pirates?
Organization: dis
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 17:42:28 GMT
raven at solaria.sol.net (Raven) wrote:
> Earlier in that rebuttal, I had said more clearly that the Moors were
> "black-dominated", not that each and every individual Moor was black.
>
> Thus the paragraph you quote is again stressing that Moorish dominance
> amounted to Black dominance (Blacks dominated the Moors who dominated Spain),
> not that Blacks constituted each and every one of those Moors.
>
> "Black-dominated" is more expressive of Moorish culture than might be inferred
> from "there were *some* black moors". (Please capitalize "Moor".) Blacks
> were not a minority in power or influence, but a prominent and dominant part
> of Moorish *leadership*; enough that Black was considered *more* beautiful
> than White (unlike later conditions in the New World, black skin was the mark,
> not of probable slavery, but of probable nobility); enough that a Moor was
> presumed to be Black unless otherwise specified (Shakespeare's Othello was
> a Moor, and this is enough information to have him appear onstage as Black);
> enough that the English word "blackamoor" exists, and referred even to Blacks
> who had nothing to do with the Moorish empire. The absorption into the more
> "Mediterranean" population they dominated has changed that appearance, rather
> as modern Mongols appear more Chinese now than they did before ruling China,
> but please don't back-project later (or New World) ideas of Black roles.
The problem is that it isn't true. "Blackamoor" means a black moor, just
as "Polish-American" means an American whose ancestors came from
Poland--in both cases there is no implication that most of the
population, or the dominant part, is from that group.
The Berbers were a mediterranean people two thousand years ago, when
Mauritania was a Roman province. Roughly speaking, the dividing line
between mediterranean and black was the Sahara desert, although there
was, of course, a good deal of mixing.
If you read medieval Islamic literature, it is clear that although there
were high status blacks--Ziryab in al-Andalus and Ibriham Ibn al Mahdi
in the Middle East are striking examples--they were the exception, not
the rule. Blacks most often appear as slaves--see the 1001 Nights for
lots of examples.
So far as the "Moorish Empire," there wasn't one. The North African
Berbers were conquered by the Arabs and mostly converted to Islam early
in Islamic history. Spain was then conquered by a mixed Arab-Berber
force owing allegiance to an Arabic Caliph. The point at which you get a
more or less independent polity made up of Spain and parts of North
Africa is when the Abbasids seize the Caliphate and the last surviving
Umayyad prince succeeds in establishing himself in al-Andalus and
founding what becomes the Western Umayyad dynasty. Abd er Rahman was an
Arab, a descendant of the fifth Caliph, Muawiyya, not a black.
The closest you come to a "Moorish Empire" would be the Almoravid and
Almohad periods, when religious movements among the Berber tribes of
Northwest Africa resulted in the temporary creation of a unified force
sufficiently strong to push back the Christian incursions in Spain.