Comments on period Islam. Referances. Beverage restrictions.
NOTE: See also the files: religion-msg, Middle-East-msg, ME-dance-msg, ME-feasts-msg, murri-msg, p-relig-tol-msg.
************************************************************************
NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Islamic library info...
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 10:05:47 -0600
Organization: Mesa State College
Was looking at some back issues of magazines before we tossed
them, and came across an issue of Aramco World Magazine I thought some of
our middle eastern friends might enjoy.
The March/April 1987 issue is on the topic of the Topkapi
Collection and books and libraries in the Islamic world in general.
Shows examples of calligraphy and illumination, discusses royal libraries
and literacy in the eastern world, and some of the current libraries.
(One of the finest libraries of Middle Eastern manuscripts is the Chester
Beatty Library in Dublin Ireland). The articles in general seem well
balanced, with little I find to be obviously propagandist.
IMHO: I subscribed to Aramco World for the recipes and archeology
articles, and find it an overall fine magazine, with an interesting
mixture of historical and modern cultural information. The frequent food
articles with recipes is certainly a most wonderful bonus. The
subscription is free. The most recent issue has articles on the Epic of
Gilgamesh the King, on Marzipan, and on the celebration of Manas 1000 -
of the epic of Manas in Kyrggyzstan, among others.
ARAMCO WORLD
ISSN 1044-1891
March/April 1987 issue in question.
Phred
Disclaimer: This magazine is published under the auspices (I think) of
Suadi Aramco, the oil company, with the expressed purpose of fostering
cross-cultural understanding of the Arab and Muslim world, and as such
may have a bias. My personal understanding and knowledge of the region,
history and culture are limited enough that I may not notice it, for
which I apologize. In spite of this, I enjoy this magazine!
From: sbloch at adl15.adelphi.edu (Stephen Bloch)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Islamic library info...
Date: 10 Jul 1996 17:29:14 GMT
Organization: Adelphi University, Garden City, NY
Master Sion Andreas (Ian Engle <ianengle at freenet.columbus.oh.us>) wrote:
> Like pass on the subscription information, dude. I've seen
>issues for years (and it is of consistent high quality,) but it'd really
>help to know HOW to get it.
Unfortunately, the previous article has expired from my news-server, so
I can but guess what "it" is. In Islam-related periodicals for $200,
"what is Aramco World?" This is a loss-leader for the Saudi national
oil company, which can afford to put out a slick, well-photographed,
well-written magazine on the lands of Islam (including frequent feature
articles on aspects of medieval Islam) gratis. Whether that's what Sion
wanted or not, it can be had by writing to
Aramco World
POB 469008
Escondido, CA 92046-9008
Stephen Bloch
sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu
http://www.adelphi.edu/~sbloch/
Math/CS Dept, Adelphi University
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:44:41 -0600
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - "Rose Soda" and the evils of "documentation"
At 12:03 AM -0500 2/2/00, LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
>Actually, the prohibition of al-Islam is 'that not one drop' of the fermented
>juice of the grape is to drank. It does not prohibit the drinking of any
>other fermented drinks and does not, technically, prohibit the drinking of
>the remaining drops of wine in a bottle.
I don't think it is that simple.
There are four different orthodox legal schools in Sunni Islam, and
each has its own interpretation of the prohibition. The most severe
bans drinking, in any quantity however small, anything that makes you
intoxicated, however much it takes to do so--a sort of Muslim
equivalent of the Delaney Amendment. The least severe bans the
drinking of wine--i.e. fermented grape juice--and bans getting drunk,
defined as so drunk that you cannot tell the earth from the sky or a
man from a woman.
My source for that summary is the Hattox book on the introduction of
coffee; he discusses the question because there was some dispute as
to whether coffee was covered by the ban. My impression is that he is
generally reliable, but I haven't researched the matter further.
Incidentally, I gather there is an exception for date beer that has
fermented no more than three days.
David Friedman
Professor of Law
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:25:11 -0800
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: SC - Islamic alchohol?
Thorbjorn wrote:
>I don't know about period Islamic brews, but today, it is still forbidden
>that any alcohol cross the lips of Muslims.
Rules are rules and actual behaviors and practices are often
something else. We had a discussion along these lines recently on
this list (in the "Spanish Beer" thread, IIRC) and apparently there
are several ways to interpret the injunction in the Qur'an - from the
strictest (no alcohol of any sort), to drinking every alcohol except
wine, to drinking even wine but pouring out the first few drops. It
depends in part on what country one lives in and what sect of Islam
one follows.
Rumi the Sufi writes frequently of getting drunk, and while this is
interpreted as being purely metaphorical ("getting high on god"), it
suggests that drinking alcohol was not unknown to him either through
personal experience or observation.
Certainly wine and other spirits were drunk in al-Andalus "in
period", at least by the ruling class or tribe, which was often
decried by stricter practitioners in the Maghrib. (mentioned in "A
History of the Maghrib")
Another example of Qur'anic rule vs. actual practice is an injunction
against art depicting living beings in art. There are paintings from
just about every Muslim culture throughout the existence of Islam
depicting animals and humans, including Mohammed (although his face
is usually veiled). In iconoclastic periods, manuscripts could be
treated any of several ways, from outright destruction, to effacing
faces, to drawing a line in ink across the throats of the humans to
"kill" them by slitting their throats, so to speak.
Jeff Gedney" <JGedney at dictaphone.com> wrote:
> > I have been reading "the Works and Voyages of John Davis, Navigator".
> > Last night I have found an interesting reference.
> > In the 1580's John Davis was navigator for a Flemish boat making
> > a spice run to the East Indies, and in one of the Malay Kingdoms (Achien)
I believed this would be what is currently called Aceh (pronounced
Ah-chey) on the northern tip of Sumatra, a short boat ride to
Malaysia. They're pretty strict there now, but 400 years ago could
well have behaved differently.
I lived in Indonesia on the island of Java from 1979 to 1980, where
over 90 per cent of the population is nominally Muslim and they drank
beer (and it wasn't rice beer). Granted, this isn't period, but is
illustrative of actual practices of some Muslims...
I did visit the province of North Sumatra (Sumatera Utara, not Aceh)
where there are some non-Muslims (my ex-husband's family, for
example, Bataks on the island of Samosir in Lake Toba). To celebrate
I was served a mixture of beer and Chinese medicinal wine (ugh, not a
recommended mixture).
As far as i know, the Indonesians learned to make beer from the Dutch
who colonized the region for about 300-350 years.
On the island of Bali they still drink an indigenous alcoholic
beverage made from fermented palm sap which is also an indigenous
source of sugar. It is clear, colorless, pretty harsh, and packs a
punch, called "tuak". Most Balinese are not Muslim, so no local
injunction. This or something like it is likely the beverage
mentioned in Davis's work as i know that historically it was known
throughout the archipelago. I don't know exactly how it is made,
although perhaps some of my anthropology books make mention. If you
like, i can pursue it...
Wet rice agriculture has been known there for a *very* long time, at
least 2,000 years (that's growing in "paddies", although this is a
misnomer, as "padi" is raw unhusked rice, the terraced wet rice
fields are "sawah"), so rice was certainly available.
They do use fermentation and yeast ("ragi)) to process several
starchy white tubers which are eaten as a sweet snacks. The
fermentation process seems to make them sweeter and appears to break
down the fibers making the tubers softer (mushy) and less fibrous.
As fruits are picked ripe and refrigerators are rare, one needs to
eat them quickly. I personally experienced fresh pineapple which had
fermented naturally in the heat. So i suppose some sort of fermented
fruit beverage is also a possibility, although i have no
documentation.
Ananita al-shazhiyya
(Mutiarawati)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:43:31 -0600
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Islamic alchohol?
The situation as I understand it was:
There were (and are) four mutually orthodox schools of law in Sunni
Islam. In other words, members of one school of law do not regard
members of another as heretics, but they disagree in how they
interpret Islamic law.
On the subject of alcohol, the most tolerant of the four schools
holds that the prohibition applies to wine (i.e. fermented grape
juice) and to getting drunk on other things, but not to drinking
other things. And at least one interpretation holds that "drunk"
means "so drunk that you cannot tell the earth from the sky or a man
from a woman." The least tolerant school holds that it is forbidden
to drink any quantity at all of anything that, in sufficiently large
quantities, gets you drunk.
I think my source for all of this is Hattox's book on the
introduction of coffee; he discusses it because there was some
dispute as to whether the prohibition applied to coffee.
Also, there is apparently a tradition according to which the Prophet
said that date beer fermented no more than three days was permitted.
I don't know what the Shia position is.
So far as recipes are concerned, the nearest thing I know of is the
description of how to make arrack (distilled liquor from sugar cane)
in the _Ain I Akbari_. I don't know if the Mughals considered arrack
permitted, or if it was being made by the Hindus, Jews, or
Christians, or what.
David Friedman
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 18:55:45 -0600
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Islamic alchohol?
At 11:25 AM -0800 2/28/00, lilinah at earthlink.net wrote:
>Rules are rules and actual behaviors and practices are often something else.
Of course. There are lots of period anecdotes about wine drinking by
Muslims, including by the Caliph.
A certain holy man saw a barge on the river Euphrates, laden with
great clay jugs, and asked of a bystander what they were. He was
informed that they were jugs of wine, destined for the palace of the
Prince of the Muslims. So the holy man picked up a barge pole and
smashed the jugs, all save one that he missed.
He was seized and taken before the Prince of the Muslims, the Caliph
Mutadid (May Allah be content with him) for judgement.
"And who is it that has made thee inspector of the marketplace?"
Asked the Prince of the Muslims.
"He who has made thee Prince of the Muslims," responded the holy man.
And the Caliph Mutadid (May Allah be content with him) was abashed,
and ordered that the holy man be released.
David Friedman
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:09:46 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Islamic alchohol?
The prime difference in the political dogma of the Sunni and the Shia is
that the Sunni accept the traditional order of the caliphs who followed
Mohammed, while the Shia hold that the 4th caliph, Ali, represents the true
line of descent of religious authority.
The Sunni are divided by ritual and law into Hanafites, Malikites, Shafites,
and Hanbalites. These probably represent the four major schools of law
Hattox mentions.
In general, the Shia are stricter in interpretation than the Sunni.
Bear
Subject: Arabic And Islamic Books
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 03:13:29 +0200
From: Jihad Baydoun <marketing at al-ilmiyah.com>
To: "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)" <mark.s.harris at motorola.com>
Arabic and Islamic Books are us
Retail and Whole sale
www.arabic-islamic-books.com
The web of the largest publishing house in the Arabic and Islamic world
- More Than 200 new titles yearly, more than 3000 titles Published until
NOW.
- Subjects: dictionary, history, poetry, language, Islamic books,
tafsir, fiqh, syra nabawiyah, hadith, shareh hadith, in addition to
translated Islamic books to English and French.
To Download a catalog of our publications click here.
To get our free catalog on CD-ROM (Arabic enabled MS Windows is needed) or
our Printed Catalog click here.
Mohammed Ali Baydoun Publications
Dar al-Kotob al-ilmiyah (Publishing House)
Tel & Fax : (+961-1) 366135 / 364398 / 378541 / 378542
P.O.Box : 11 - 9424 Beirut - Lebanon
web : http://www.al-ilmiyah.com
e-mail : sales at al-ilmiyah.com
e-mail : info at al-ilmiyah.com
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: Chocolate+Muslim (was Re: [Sca-cooks] Probably OOP but just
wondering.)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:38:14 -0600
>Were the Ishmailis similar to the Hashshashin? Who
>gave us that wonderful word "assassin"?
>
>Huette
The Ishmailis or Ismailis are an esoteric branch of the Shiites. The name
derives from Isma'il, the name of the the son of the sixth imam, Jafar (8th
Century). The Ishmailis are primarily Persian and it is believed the
"Assassins" were a cult of the Ishmaili. There is also a strong link
between the Ishmailis and Sufism.
Bear
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:47:08 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moslems and alcohol
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>> The range of utterly no alcohol to some alcohol so long as it isn't
>> brewed from grapes, appears to have varied by sect. I'm not sure that
>> there has been a loosening of the alcohol restriction over the
>> years in general. I believe that it is still forbidden to most Moslems.
>>
>> Stefan
>
> The prohibition on alcohol depends on interpretation of the religious law.
> The absolute prohibition is on "the fruit of the grape," so grape wines,
> brandies, etc. are completely prohibited, while othr alcoholic beverages
> may or may not be permitted depending on the particular brand of Islam one
> follows and on how strictly one follows Islamic dietary laws. The strictest
> adherents say that the prohibition applies to anything that alters the mind,
> which is part of the reason coffee and qhat were prohibited at one
> time. The best general rule is that alcohol is forbidden to Moslems.
>
> Bear
The "official" rules are important to know. But we are faced with an
additional issue as students of history - and that is what people
really did.
Let's say, for example, that we only study Christianity through the
Bible (as a parallel to studying Islam via the Qur'an). We will then
have one idea of who Christians were/are and what they id/do.
But if we look at the actual lives of Christians throughout history
and in many different cultural areas, we will find that who
Christians were/are and what Christians did/do is quite varied.
Christians did not (and most still do not) scrupulously and literally
follow the Bible, even if they say they do. Even literalists are
quite selective as to which parts of the Bible they ignore - and it's
not just an issue of different interpretations.
The same is true of Muslims. While it is true that "alcohol is
forbidden to Moslems", whether or not Muslims within SCA-period drank
alcohol is a completely different issue. I'm interested in what
people did, not just what they were supposed to do or not do.
Let's look at some other Muslim laws: A literal interpretation of the
Qur'an indicates that pictures of living beings, especially humans,
is forbidden. And yet we have a wealth of art that includes or even
features humans, from what is now Afghanistan to al-Andalus. The one
place that representations of humans do not appear is in the Qur'an
itself. Yet there are, outside of the Qur'an, paintings of the life
of Muhammed and the Prophet is represented as a normal human (and
this is in several cultures, not just one) - the one fairly
consistent hedge is that he s painted with a small rectangle of
cloth covering his face from forehead to chin.
In studying the Islamic world - and especially foodways, hospitality,
and entertaining - it is clear that wine was commonly used by many in
the upper classes and among intllectuals and artists. There are
clear unveiled non-metaphorical references to wine and wine drinking
in many parts of Dar al-Islam.
Now, many modern converts have complained that historical references
to alcohol-imbibing Muslims are just falsehoods spread by non-Muslims
trying to slander Islam. Or that such references are due to faulty
translations or even intentional errors by non-Muslims, yet many of
the texts I'm reading have Muslims as translators.
In fact, the actual and the ideal do not always math. I suspect that
some of our tiptoeing around this issue is due to several factors.
One is our desire not to be offensive to actual Muslims. Another is
the fact that most of us are not Muslims. And a third is that most of
us have not studied this issue deeply.
I am not a Muslim, I don't intend to offend Muslims, and i have not
studied this issue to the fullest extent - I'm still studying. But it
is clear that some Muslims drank alcohol - some very important
Muslims, such as the highest classes in Persia, and the ruling class
and Janissaries in the Ottoman Empire - and some to excess within SCA
period.
Let me note here that I am myself not much of a drinker. In the
course of a year i may have a few sips of alcoholic beverages in
toasts at weddings, annivesary parties, and similar celebrations.
And i may have a few - and I mean, maybe 2 or 3 - entire glasses full
of some mixed drinks in the course of a year. So my comments are not
an excuse for me to drink alcohol.
Before the Almohads invaded, wine was a common beverage openly drunk
in al-Andalus by all classes and religions. And I've been reading
Andalusian poetry which is clearly not metaphorical discussing
drinking wine.
There are many paintings of pitchers and cups of wine in Persian art
- ok, no absolute proof, but i'm skeptical that all those wine
colored beverages are merely wine-dark sharbats. Europeans travelling
in Persia in the 16th and 17th centuries were shocked that the
Persians they met - generally high level officials - drank
*undiluted* wie - and began drinking it in the morning. And in his
own autobiography, Baybars, the Persian who became the first Moghul
ruler, discusses his drinking, and there are paintings of him
drunkenly riding his horse.
The Turks, especially the Ottomans, were known to drink alcohol
(certainly not all of them, but many of them) and they appear to have
a tradition of making and drinking non-grape alcoholic beverages as
well.
And there is the clear probability within Dar al-Islam of non-grape
based fermented beverages from fruits, honey, or palm sap.
Certainly, we cannot assume that Muslims generally ignored the
injunction against drinking. And it is true that while grapes were
grown by Muslims, wine was made and sold by non-Muslims - there were
laws to this affecting many polities that were actually enforced
(many laws were made that were not). But it is clear that wine was
not unknown in the Muslim world as a beverage of some prominent, and
not so prominent, Muslims.
--
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona frmerly known as Anahita
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:43:15 +0000
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moslems and alcohol
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> The range of utterly no alcohol to some alcohol so long as it isn't
> brewed from grapes, appears to have varied by sect. I'm not sure
> that there has been a loosening of the alcohol restriction over the
> years in general. I believe that it is still forbidden to most
> Moslems.
I believe the range is from "no amount, however small, of anything
that in sufficiently large amounts can intoxicate" to "nothing from
fermented grapes, and don't get really drunk on anything."
And the division isn't, I think, so much by sects as by schools of
the law. The Sunni recognize four mutually orthodox schools.
Another poster mentions "fruit of the grape" as being the original
category. I haven't checked the Koranic passage, but my memory from
the Hattox book on coffee is that it wasn't that explicit.
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:15:37 -0400
From: "Jeff Gedney" <gedney1 at iconn.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moslems and alcohol
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Another poster mentions "fruit of the grape" as being the
> original category. I haven't checked the Koranic passage, but my
> memory from the Hattox book on coffee is that it wasn't that
> explicit.
Apparently it was anything that intoxicated or clouded the mind.
Coffee could be said to do that, and then again some say it
sharpens it... hence the confusion.
Here are the Koranic verses that I could find that touch on the
subject, there may be others. You will note that the holy ones in
paradise drink as much pure wine as they please.
Qur'an: Sura 2 verse 219
They question thee about strong drink and games of chance. Say: In
both is great sin, and (some) utility for men; but the sin of them
is greater than their usefulness. And they ask thee what they
ought to spend. Say: that which is superfluous. Thus Allah maketh
plain to you (His) revelations, that haply ye may reflect.
Qur'an: Sura 4 verse 43
O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken,
till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save
when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be
ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye
have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean
soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is
Benign, Forgiving.
Qur'an: Sura 5 verse 90
O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and
divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it
aside in order that ye may succeed.
Qur'an: Sura 5 verse 91
Satan seeketh only to cast among you enmity and hatred by means of
strong drink and games of chance, and to turn you from remembrance
of Allah and from (His) worship. Will ye then have done?
Qur'an: Sura 16 verse 67
And of the fruits of the date-palm, and grapes, whence ye derive
strong drink and (also) good nourishment. Lo! therein is indeed a
portent for people who have sense.
Qur'an: Sura 47 verse 15
A similitude of the Garden which those who keep their duty (to
Allah) are promised: Therein are rivers of water unpolluted, and
rivers of milk whereof the flavour changeth not, and rivers of
wine delicious to the drinkers, and rivers of clear-run honey;
therein for them is every kind of fruit, with pardon from their
Lord. (Are those who enjoy all this) like those who are immortal
in the Fire and are given boiling water to drink so that it
teareth their bowels?
Qur'an: Sura 83 verse 22-28
Lo! the righteous verily are in delight,
On couches, gazing,
Thou wilt know in their faces the radiance of delight.
They are given to drink of a pure wine, sealed,
Whose seal is musk - for this let (all) those strive who strive
for bliss -
And mixed with water of Tasnim,
A spring whence those brought near (to Allah) drink.
Capt Elias
Dragonship Haven, East
(Stratford, CT, USA)
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:57:38 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moslems and alcohol
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> I believe the range is from "no amount, however small, of anything that in
> sufficiently large amounts can intoxicate" to "nothing from fermented
> grapes, and don't get really drunk on anything."
>
> And the division isn't, I think, so much by sects as by schools of the
> law. The Sunni recognize four mutually orthodox schools.
>
> Another poster mentions "fruit of the grape" as being the original
> category. I haven't checked the Koranic passage, but my memory from
> the Hattox book on coffee is that it wasn't that explicit.
> --
> David/Cariadoc
You are correct the prohibition is not that explicit.
The prohibition rides primarily on sura 5 verse 90 of the Koran, "[5.90] O
you who believe! intoxicants and games of chance and (sacrificing to) stones
set up and (dividing by) arrows are only an uncleanness, the Shaitan's work;
shun it therefore that you may be successful."
In 16.67, some intoxicants are defined, "[16.67] And of the fruits of the
palms and the grapes-- you obtain from them intoxication and goodly
provision; most surely there is a sign in this for a people who ponder."
Bear
<the end>