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carts-msg - 12/20/00

 

Carts, wagons and other wheeled vehicles.

 

NOTE: See also the files: p-backpacks-msg, sedan-chairs-msg, travel-msg, med-ships-art, ships-bib, ships-msg, boat-building-msg, pilgrimages-msg.

 

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NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given by the individual authors.

 

Please  respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these messages. The  copyright status  of these messages  is  unclear at this time. If  information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org

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From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Rickshaws and golf carts

Date: 24 Nov 1993 17:17:45 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

Joe Pepersack <ee331aa at mage.eece.unm.edu> wrote:

>>] horses... :)

>

>Were human powered wheeled vehicles used in medieval Europe?

 

In _Civilisation_ Sir Kenneth Clarke mentions "the cult of the carts"

during the 12th-century renaissance, when noble lords and ladies were

so eager to help in building the great cathedrals that they would

unhitch the carts that were bearing the stones to the building sites

and pull them themselves.

 

Trouble is, I can't remember whether these were horse- or human-drawn

carts, and my copy of _Civilisation_ is still packed.

 

I seem to recall reading about small carts with a pair of poles and

a leather strap between them so that a man could rest his chest against

it and pull the cart.  But I can't remember any references.

 

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin          Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                       UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable            djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu

 

 

From: JLEASE at nara.GOV (Jennifer Lease)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: gypsy carts

Date: 7 Nov 1994 09:18:17 -0500

 

Greetings to the bridge!

Gwenfrei ferch Cadfael of Caernarfon wrote:

>wanting to know about wooden enclosed cart/carriage with a living and

>sleeping space as used by gypsies

According to the limited research I have done and the extensive research

my tribe leader has done, wooden enclosed carts did not come into use

until well into the 17th or 18th centuries. However, they did use carts to

carry all their possessions.  Only they were more akin to conestoga

wagons, ie. flat bed wagons with tents on them.  I will try to get a hold

of my tribe leader and see if she can come up with some documentation for

you.

As for the term gypsy, it too is either late period or OOP totally.  

Again, based on my limited research, the term comes from the period term

of "Little Egyptian".  When the gypsies enterd Western Europe from the

baltic and eastern european countries, with their outlandish dress,

customs and language, W.E. had no idea who or what hit them.  The gypsies

themselves claimed to be from somewhere called Little Egypt.  There are

documented cases of tribes of Little Egyptians claiming sanctuary because

they were serving penance as punishment for religious "crimes" in their

homeland.  Eventually, the governments of the time began legislating

against the tribes.  When they entered the British Isles in the 1400's

laws against vagrancy etc. were passed to keep them out of towns.  The

term "Little Egyptian" gradually changed to the term gypsy.  The other

period term I ran across was "Zeiguner" or something like that, (my german

is lousy!:-) ) Most modern gypsies perfer the term "Rhom" or "Rhomany" and

in Scotland they are referred to "the Traveling People".

I will do my best to locate the citation of the book(s) that I read for

this information.  It is by no means complete and as the study of gypsies

is young, there are a lot of differing viewpoints and information.  I hope

this helps!

Anna MacKenzie

Barony of the Brights Hills

K. of Atlantia

...sometime member of the Gypsy Tribe of the Winged Wolf...

 

From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Coaches and Wagons (was What is Period (Pt 2))

Date: 7 Dec 1994 11:16:57 -0600

 

<From: zkessin at ppp3253.wing.net (Zach)>

>>>"Why do we call cars dragons? I tend to try to call mine a coach or

>>>a wagon. It tends to be slightly better" (Zach/Guiliam)

 

Cariadoc/David

>>Much better....

>>...I think of coaches as about 18th century and wagons as more

>>appropriate to our period, but I have not actually checked how early

>>the word "coach" is used or for what.

>The OED might have something usefull but I dont own a copy. I just

>figured that it would not be too unreasonable for someone from c1490

>would use a coach when not just riding on a horse.

 

If I may interject...

 

Gleaned from a handy copy of the OED (2d ed):

 

Carriage

     1.a. Carrying or bearing from one place to another;

          conveyance. 1388 Wyclif...

     2.   esp. Conveyance of merchandise; commercial transport;

          traffic of transport; carrying trade. 1523 Fitzherb....

     3.   An impost on the transport of goods through a country or

          territory; a customs duty, toll, or carrier's licence.

          Obs. 1200...

     4.   An obsolete service of carrying, or a payment in lieu of

          the same, due by a tenant to his landlord or feudal

          superior, or imposed by authority. 1386...

     13.  Manner of carrying one's body; bodily deportment,

          bearing, mien. 1596 Shakes...

     14.  Manner of conducting oneself socially; demeanour;

          deportment, behaviour. (Referring to manners.) arch. 1590

          Shakes...

     18.  a. Something carried; a burden, a load. Obs. 1458 MS....

          b. A load, as a quantity definite or indefinite.

          1596/7...

     19.  Baggage. (Originally collectively; later often in plural)

          Obs.

          a. The portable equipment of an army, L. impedimenta; =

          baggage 2. Sometimes including the whole baggage-train.

          1375...

          b. Movable or portable property; baggage or luggage

          carried with one on a journey, etc. 1398 ...

     22.  Means of conveyance. Obs. 1450 ...

     23.  A vehicle or means of conveyance of any kind. Obs. except

          in wheel carriage; 15--?...

     24.  A wheeled vehicle generally. Obs. or arch. 1560...

     27.  The wheeled support on which a piece of ordnance is

          mounted; a gun-carriage. 1560...

 

Cart

     1.   A carriage of any kind; a chariot, car. 800 ...

     2.   a. specifically. A strong vehicle with two wheels, and

          without springs, used in farming operations, and for

          carrying heavy goods of various kinds. (Distinguished

          from a wagon, which has four wheels.) 1297...

          b. With various ns. indicating its use, as baggage-,

          dung-, dust-, harvest-, hay-, luggage-cart, etc., or the

          animal that draws it, as donkey-cart. 1642 ...

 

Coach

     [Essentially the term is borrowed from the Hungarian]

     1.   a. A large kind of carriage: in 16th and 17th centuries,

          usually a state carriage of royalty or people of quality

          (still occasionally used, as e.g. the Lord Mayor's

          coach); now, usually, a large close carriage with four

          wheels, with seats inside, and several outside, used for

          public conveyance of passengers (see stage-coach). Hence

          to take coach (obs.).

          It does not appear certain what was the precise new

          feature that distinguished the Hungarian kocsi, and led

          to its adoption throughout Europe. A German picture of

          "ein ungerische gutsche," after 1550, shows it still

          without covering, and not suspended on springs.

          (Hildebrand in Grimm.)  1556 ....

 

Conveyance

     1.   Convoying, escorting, or conducting; conduct. Obs.

          1503/4...

     2.   The action of carrying or transporting; the carriage of

          persons or goods from one place to another. (Formerly

          used more widely.) 1520...

     3.   Carrying away, removal, riddance. Obs. 1567...

     4.   Furtive or light-fingered carrying off; stealing.

          (Sometimes associated with sleight of hand or jugglery)

          1526...

     11.  Manner of managing or conducting; skilful management,

          skill; generalship. Obs. 1526...

          b. esp. Cunning management or contrivance; underhand

          dealing, jugglery, sleight of hand. Obs. 1531...

     13.  A means of transport from place to place, a carriage, a

          vehicle: now, esp. applied to anything used to convey

          persons as passengers, e.g. any kind of private or public

          vehicle, a railway carriage, a boat, ship, etc. Formerly

          applicable also to a beast of burden: cf. carriage.

          1598...

 

Van  

     1.   a. A covered vehicle chiefly employed for the conveyance

          of goods, usually resembling a large wooden box with

          arched roof and opening from behind, but varying in size

          (and to some extent in form) according to the use

          intended. Now usu., a motor vehicle with a covered rear

          compartment, often of shorter wheelbase than a lorry,

          used esp. for deliveries or service calls. 1829...

     2.   The foremost portion of, or the foremost position in, a

          company or train of persons moving, or prepared to move,

          forwards or onwards. 1610...

 

Wagon

     In Du. (as in Ger.) wagen has always been the most general

     term for a wheeled vehicle; in the 16th c. it was adopted into

     Eng. in this wide sense as well as in the specific military

     application learned in the continental wars.

     1.   a. A strong four-wheeled vehicle designed for the

          transport of heavy goods. In military use chiefly with

          qualifying word, as ambulance, ammunition, bread, forge

          wagon etc., for which see those words. 1523...

 

Any other suggestions?

 

A simple scholar,

 

      Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn

      University of Northkeep

      Northkeepshire, Ansteorra

      (I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)

 

 

From: LIB_IMC at vax1.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: re: Dragons and Wagons

Date: 9 Jan 1995 09:38:16 -0600

Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway

 

A bit of trivia.

 

Having been browsing through a small variety of sources this weekend,

most particularly something that resembles a Baedekker's guide to 1492,

who's title unfortunately escapes me.

 

The "wagon" used for much of the Middle Ages appears to have been a solid

unit from the front of the animal pulling, to the rear of the "box".  None

of the wheels were able to turn, forcing the thing to turn AS a unit.  The

"driver" was a person walking alongside with what looks (in the drawings)

like a cat'o'nine tails, but I'm not convinced is.  The rest of the wagon

bore a passing visual similarity to the covered wagon of the American Old

West.

 

The Front turning wheels appeared in about 1470, or so. And the raised box

for a seated driver did not appear until the Coach came in from Hungary.

 

The suspension system was, I believe, even later.

 

A temporarily displaced scholar,

 

Diarmuit Ui Dhunn

University of Northkeep, Northkeepshire

(I. Marc Carlson

IMC at VAX2.UTULSA.EDU

LIB_IMC at VAX1.UTULSA.EDU)

 

 

From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Dragons and Wagons

Date: 12 Jan 1995 18:11:28 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

[Hal posting from Dorothy's account...]

In article <950109093850.29823e04 at vax1.utulsa.edu>,

I. Marc Carlson <LIB_IMC at vax1.utulsa.edu> wrote:

>Having been browsing through a small variety of sources this weekend,

>most particularly something that resembles a Baedekker's guide to 1492,

>who's title unfortunately escapes me.

>

>The "wagon" used for much of the Middle Ages appears to have been a solid

>unit from the front of the animal pulling, to the rear of the "box".  None

>of the wheels were able to turn, forcing the thing to turn AS a unit...

 

Interestings.....  Especially since the photographs of the Oseberg

Cart (_The Viking_, pub. Tre Trycare, 1966, p. 236) rather

clearly show pivotable front wheels.  Rather limited rotational

angle, given the design, but some ability.  The Oseberg ship is

thought to date from circa 800.

 

      --Hal Ravn

       (Hal Heydt)

 

 

From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Dragons and Wagons

Date: 13 Jan 1995 18:17:04 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

[Hal posting from Dorothy's account...]

In article <9501130843.AA17390 at volsung.hfsi.com>,

Michael Houghton <herveus at volsung.hfsi.COM> wrote:

>In a recent artical, Hal Ravn observed:

>> Interestings.....  Especially since the photographs of the Oseberg

>> Cart (_The Viking_, pub. Tre Trycare, 1966, p. 236) rather

>> clearly show pivotable front wheels.  Rather limited rotational

>> angle, given the design, but some ability.  The Oseberg ship is

>> thought to date from circa 800.

>>

>I disagree. Unless we are talking about different carts, the one I

>saw at the Viking Ship Museum had rigid wheels; no steering capability

>whatsoever. I'll check my photograph of the cart to verify my memory.

 

In the citation there are two pictures of the cart.  A large shot

from the front primarily showing the carving on the end of the

removable 'bed' of the cart and a smaller shot from the side.

 

In the front-on shot, you can see a cylindrical pin going from

the front 'axle' to the frame.  The pin tapers near the top.  The

framing supporting the front wheels does not *appear* to have a

solid connection to the frame above it, but looks to be a sliding

support.  so long as the wheels aren't turned any farther than

will permit contact with these two pieces to remain in contact,

the structure should remain stable.  Given the size of the wheels

and the overall structure of the cart, this shouldn't be a

problem.

 

The general case is, I think, one of design.  Until the use of

small front wheels and undercut beds came in, four-wheeled carts

couldn't have very steep steering angles--large wheels can't be

run in under full beds.  

 

While not what I'd consider at all definitive, the sketch in the

same work on page 238 seems to show the from wheels at a slight

angle with respect to the back wheels and (top of page) *clearly*

show the back axle solidly attached to the frame of the cart.

 

      --Hal Ravn

       (Hal Heydt)

 

 

From: bjm10 at cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Elephants on the Field

Date: 3 Oct 1995 18:48:08 GMT

Organization: Cornell University

 

In article <9509281818.aa13417 at MINTAKA.LCS.MIT.EDU>, wballard at  says...

>

>   However if you would like to use a more western medieval

>or renaissance contraption with somewhat similar characteristics,

>look to Scottish or Hussite war wagons. The scottish was usually

>more usefull in manuever combat than the Hussites, which tended

>to be used in a wagon circle fortress.

 

It should also be noted that the Hussite mobile fortresses were intended

for use with guns, up to small artillery pieces (1-3 pounders), mounted

in the wagons--they were HEAVY.  The standard Hussite formation was to

pull the wagons into a "U", not a circle.  The mouth of the U was ideally

to point at around 90 degrees from the attacking forces, maybe a little

away from them.  The Hussites then put up a palisade to cover this

opening.

 

Why a "U" and not a circle?  The palisade had a gate, wherefrom Hussite

cavalry and infantry could make assaults after the heavy mass of

firepower had disordered their opponents.  The guns disordered the

Imperial forces, then the cavalry and infantry went out to mop up.

 

 

From: wballard at  (Ward Ballard, [140.218.193.129])

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Elephants on the Field

Date: 28 Sep 1995 18:37:23 -0400

Organization: The Internet

 

   For those interested simulated elephants have been

used historically by Arab armies where they built a wicker

frame that was carried by a camel.  In addition to the

shock of contact value of a very large animal during melee,

the elephants of antiquity usually carried a howdah protecting

a crew of 2 to 4 archers, javelineers, and/or pikemen. One

variant from Burma consisted of an A-frame like arrangement

similar to bleacher seating that carried upto 16 soldiers.

   However if you would like to use a more western medieval

or renaissance contraption with somewhat similar characteristics,

look to Scottish or Hussite war wagons. The scottish was usually

more usefull in manuever combat than the Hussites, which tended

to be used in a wagon circle fortress.

   Finding enough people to move these things without horses

will probably mean they never get built or used though.

   From someone who has spent entirely too much time thinking

about how to make a penthouse for assaulting a bridge.

--

Bertrand d'Avignon

Barony Arn Hold, Atenveldt

 

 

From: "Jacqueline M. Trimble" <afn36719 at afn.org>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: travel/caravan wagons

Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 19:46:35 -0500

Mime-Version: 1.0

 

On 6 Jan 1996, Robert Youngs wrote:

 

> I would be very grateful for any comments, directions, or suggestions

> from the gathered assemblages on the subject of the use and

> construction of 'travelling wagons' or 'caravan wagons' (such as is

> typified by 'gypsy wagons') during period.

>

>   --- Robert, known as Badger, the Curious ---

>

Do you mean Vardos'? (I belive this is how it is spelled.)

I vaugely remember seeing an artical in Fine Woodworking Mag. many years

ago on someone who had built one of these. Much time and money was involved.

I have also seen in one of the Ren-faire Publications that I get, an Ad

from someone about making movable booths and carts. This may be an answer

of sorts.I'll try to find a copy and e-mail the title later.

JT

 

 

From: DVANARSD at systema.westark.EDU (Dennis VanArsdale)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: travel/caravan wagons

Date: 8 Jan 1996 14:48:00 -0500

Organization: Westark Community College

 

On 6 Jan 1996, Robert Youngs wrote:

> I would be very grateful for any comments, directions, or suggestions

> from the gathered assemblages on the subject of the use and

> construction of 'travelling wagons' or 'caravan wagons' (such as is

> typified by 'gypsy wagons') during period.

>   --- Robert, known as Badger, the Curious ---

RESPONSE:

Having done a chunk of research with much the same intent just a few

months ago, I can tell you what I found:

A. The classic gypsy caravan wagons were actually not built until the

1800s, which puts them out of our period.  They were usually built by

commercial carriage shops for the gypsies, since they took a lot of

woodworking and other equipment.  But, boy, they do look neat!

B. The best books I found were English, and I got a look at some of

them through interlibrary loan.  BTW - ask your library to search

OCLC (an international database) or First Search (an easy-access

version) for subjects like this.

I can't guarantee you can still borrow these, but try: The English

gypsy caravan: its origins, builders, technology, and conservation,

by C.M. Ward-Jackson, 2nd edition 1986, David & Charles (OCLC  

15109447, if your library wants to find it fast); or Gypsy caravans:

their history and restoration, by E. Alan Jones, Signs-Malton, 1981

(OCLC 16549099); or  Discovering horse-drawn caravans, by Donald John

Smith, Shire publications, 1981 (OCLC 8778833).

As I said, this all indicates that the fancy models we've seen in

movies are OOP.  Knowing Fine Woodworking, if an article covered any

of this, it may be a little thin on details, but these books cover

the subject pretty well, and some have color photos if you want to

check the paint schemes.

C. I tried something of this using my 4x8 trailer, but went more with a

late period plaster-wall-with-wood-lath look, and topped it with a

curved roof with fancy end caps and a scalloped edging. The hardest

part was building it in pieces one person could handle, since it all

had to come apart and be stored, and travel only partly assembled

(less wind resistance!).  The roof was in three sections, with the

rear section able to slide back and refasten so that a porch was

created.  I'd suggest you figure out what size trailer you can pull

easily (with present and future vehicles!) and start getting

creative based on that chassis.  Just remember that road travel

shakes everything loose if it can, so fasten everything with screws

and bolts - nails are not dependable.

Hope this helps!  -- Denys de Houtbewerker (Denys the Woodworker),

Shire of Smythkepe, Region of Gleann Abhain, Kingdom of Meridies.

 

 

From: treewolf at ix.netcom.com(Robert Youngs )

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: travel/caravan wagons

Date: 9 Jan 1996 11:34:44 GMT

Organization: Netcom

 

In <1CD6AD771B6 at systema.westark.edu>

DVANARSD at systema.westark.EDU (Dennis VanArsdale) writes:

>

> A. The classic gypsy caravan wagons were actually not

> built until the 1800s, which puts them out of our period.

> They were usually built by commercial carriage shops for

> the gypsies, since they took a lot of woodworking and

> other equipment.  But, boy, they do look neat!

 

<snip- but well worth the reading of the original post!>

 

> Hope this helps!  -- Denys de Houtbewerker (Denys the Woodworker)

 

Thank you, kind lord. Your comments are most informative and helpful! I

am curious, though, concerning wagons I have found in the book "Wheels-

A Pictorial History" by Edwin Tunis (ISBN 0-690-01282-9):

  - a Mongolian 'camel cart' is shown, dating from 1200 A.D., which

seems to be a two-wheeled vehicle said to be used by 'the rich'.

  - an English long-wagon, or 'whirlicote'; and a similar Italian

'cochio'. Both are late 13th/early14th century.

 

Each are somewhat similar to a covered-wagon of the American West, i.e.

there is a basic wooden box frame on wheels, with some sort of fabric

covered "roof" on arched hoops.

 

My dilema: both are said to be "women's coaches", and no mention was

made of whether these were used for shelter rather than strictly

travel. Are there any thoughts on whether this style would be

appropriate to use as one's shelter at an event?

 

   --- Robert, known as Badger, the Curious ---

 

 

From: Andrea Luxenburg <Edl at albany.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: travel/caravan wagons

Date: 12 Jan 1996 03:36:33 GMT

Organization: AlbanyNet - E-mail info at albany.net

 

treewolf at ix.netcom.com(Robert Youngs ) wrote:

>

>Thank you, kind lord. Your comments are most informative and helpful! I

>am curious, though, concerning wagons I have found in the book "Wheels-

>A Pictorial History" by Edwin Tunis (ISBN 0-690-01282-9):

>  - a Mongolian 'camel cart' is shown, dating from 1200 A.D., which

>seems to be a two-wheeled vehicle said to be used by 'the rich'.

>  - an English long-wagon, or 'whirlicote'; and a similar Italian

>'cochio'. Both are late 13th/early14th century.

>

>Each are somewhat similar to a covered-wagon of the American West, i.e.

>there is a basic wooden box frame on wheels, with some sort of fabric

>covered "roof" on arched hoops.

>

>My dilema: both are said to be "women's coaches", and no mention was

>made of whether these were used for shelter rather than strictly

>travel. Are there any thoughts on whether this style would be

>appropriate to use as one's shelter at an event?

>

>   --- Robert, known as Badger, the Curious ---

 

I recall a similarly described covered wagon used by merchants traveling

from one market or fair to another, and the cover lifted off to shelter

and display the merchandise.  I would imagine that, like a stationary

sshop, it sheltered the merchant as well.  

 

Gwendolyn Goosefoot

 

 

From: dickeney at access1.digex.net (Dick Eney)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Cars at War

Date: 8 Feb 1996 10:28:54 -0500

Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

 

In article <4f8re2$1kn at cmcl2.NYU.EDU>,

Norman J. Finkelshteyn <nqf2312 at is.nyu.edu> wrote:

>Nicoli C (nicolic at aol.com) wrote:

>

>:      I appologize, I am jumping in in the middle of this thread, but

>: thought I might make a suggestion.  There are ways, if the owners and

>: autocrat are willing, to disguise vehicles at gatherings.  I have seen the

>: Japaneese encampment erect a canvas painting of the Great Wall to obscure

>: vehicles from Prying eyes, and I, as a gypsy, and working on a canvas

>: covering that will, when draped across the Jeep, will look like a gypsy

>: wagon.

>

>- A contraption that, if I'm not mistaken, is just as out of period.

 

Thought wagons, themselves, are not out of period.  And people who

had any time to spare (Hungarians, Romanians, etc., note the etc.!)

decorated everything wooden with carvings and painting. So carved and

painted wagons are not unlikely.

 

But on the topic of covering vehicles-- such coverings and walls are

helpful at other events, but they are specifically mentioned as "not good

enough" at Pennsic.  There were examples of each, before the rules became

more firmly enforced, and that is why they are specifically mentioned.  

The real reason, besides oop and wear and tear on the roadways, for

banning cars from camping area is that _they take up too much space_.  If

we don't want to camp at the far end of the parking lot and walk through

a suburban-looking place, with a car or two by each tent, we have to put

the cars all together and put the tents all together.  

 

And wear and tear on the "roadways" is no small item, either-- I remember

cars being pulled out of the mud by tractors even in "normal Pennsic

weather" (only _one_ hurricane).

 

-- Tamar the Gypsy (whose persona wears whatever she found on the

   magic laundry bush)

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: djheydt at kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)

Subject: Re: Period horse-drawn carriages?

Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd.

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 06:02:09 GMT

 

Lillian of Ravenna <mleal at interconnect.net> wrote:

>Does anyone have any information on period horse-drawn carriages or buggies

>for transportation of people (not hay or other items - just passengers)?

 

There's a picture in, I think, the Luttrell Psalter showing a big

fancy luxurious covered wagon (four wheels, pulled by a couple of

horses, fabric top stretched over hoops) with windows that can be

rolled up in the sides.  It's full of noble ladies.  The

Luttrell Psalter is what, thirteenth century?

 

Certainly there were lots of horse-drawn carts, and they could be

adapted for people to write in.  Another example is the Oseberg

wagon, which has a framework with four wheels and a cradle into

which fit a wagon-body like a small boat, just about big enough

to move one rich, noble, not very athletic person from the wagon

to the ship.

 

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                         Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                               Albany, California

PRO DEO ET REGE                               djheydt at kithrup.com

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: djheydt at kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)

Subject: Re: Period horse-drawn carriages?

Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd.

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 13:00:20 GMT

 

Andrea Hicks  <maridonna at worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>Do you know when carriages, as we know them today, started being used?  I have

>seen pictures of QE I being carried about, but not in a carriage. Maybe that

>was just in England.

 

Umm, could you get a bit more specific about "carriages as we

know them today"?  I believe the thing QEII rides in for state

occasions is basically an eighteenth-century coach, and that the

big innovation in the coach was the springs.  I've got a book

somewhere....

 

Here it is.  Stuart Piggott, _Wagon, Chariot and Carriage: Symbol

and Status in the History of Transport._  London and New York:

Thames and Hudson, 1992.

 

Chapter titles:  The Ox-Wagon from the Farmyard to the Court;

Chariots and Chariotry; Princes on Horseback; From Chivalry to

Carriage.

 

"'In anno 1564 the said Walter Rippon made the first hollow

turning coche for Her Majesty, being then her servant.' The

distinguishing features of this vehicle were evidently that it

was not only covered ('hollow') but that it could turn with a

pivoted front-axle, unlike the rigid axle tilt-carriage of

Luttrell type.  It is not surprising that the Queen's first

coachman should be a Dutchman, William Boonen, as new skills of

driving a mobile four-wheeler with a pair of horses were needed,

quite unlike the fixed-track long carriage with a five-horse in

tandem."  (p. 151)

 

So that was what QEI had, quite the latest thing at the time.

 

"The technological problem facing the early coach-builders was

the provision of comfort and shelter in travel, however limited,

above all by reducing jolting and vibration by some form of

springing, and a general reduction of the body weight. This was

not finally resolved until the supply of high-grade tensile steel

to make either laminated and elliptical leaf springs between body

and undercarriage, or massive C-springs for its suspension. The

former were known as early as 1615-16, and the latter again in

the seventeenth century, but both had to wait for general

adaptation for a century."  Until the early eighteenth century,

in other words.  (p. 150)  

 

By the nineteenth century, so far as I can figure out, the coach

had finished the innovative and developmental process and the one

QEII rode in was essentially the same technology as the one

Victoria rode in.  Piggot says "At George V's coronation most of

the peers attended no longer in their coaches but in their

motor-cars, a recently invented tradition of ceremonial

transport; at the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II the extant

stock of royal coaches had to be augmented by seven hired from a

film company."  (p. 162)

 

Hope this provides the data you were looking for.

 

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                         Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                               Albany, California

PRO DEO ET REGE                               djheydt at kithrup.com

 

 

Subject: Re: [MedEnc] Gypsy Wagon

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 11:50:57 -0400

From: gretchen at nls.net

To: MedievalEncampments at egroups.com

 

>From: "Niamh Maolan" <niamh333 at hotmail.com>

>Subject: Gypsy Wagon

>

>I want to build a gypsy-like camping trailer. I was wondering

>if anyone of you have

>good plans, ideas, suggestions or even some type of documentation for this

>type of camping.

>My thoughts to size of the trailer are something along 5'w x 15'l or so.

 

>Niamh ingen Maolan

>Shire Phoenix Glade

>Meridies

 

It happens that I am in the planning/ beginning construction stage of

building a gypsy wagon/ merchant booth/ travel trailor for a friend

who sells harps at ren faires and Pennsic. Ours is wider than yours.

 

For a chassie we are borrowing an idea from a hay wagon plan out of a

1970's issue of The Mother Earth News. Sorry I can not remember the issue

#. He drives a Ford truck so we are starting with another rusted out

motorless, haul it off for free 70's Ford pick up and stripping it down to

the frame and axles. This way he only needs to carry the spare in his truck

if he has a flat on the trailer. The spare and jack fit both.  The front

steering is removed and I welded come C channel brackets to the front

crossmember. That gives us a pivot point to run two shortened drag links to

the front steering arms. Ball joints are attached to a piece of angle iron

welded to an 18 inch piece of square tubing that sits between the C channel

and pivots on a 1 inch bolt. We clamped the angle iron to the square tubing

and hooked the chassie hitch to the pickup. Then towed it around in circles

while moving the angle iron with the ball joints forward and backward till

it tracked ok. Not perfect but the wheels don't squeel except at tight

turns. The towing bar pivots up an down and pulling the bolt makes it

removable from the piece of square tubing when it is set up onsite.

 

Once the chassie was turned into a trailer, we put two 6 X 6 beams just

outside the frame where it goes up and over the back axle. The top of the

beams is even with the top of the frame. We sat the hitch crosswise on top

the frame at the back axle and C clamps held the beams to the bottom. That

was the highest point on the frame. Then we propped the beams where we

wanted in front and I welded brackets at 4 points along the beams. Plus two

smaller angle iron brackets directly to the frame in front and behind the

back axle where the beam sits against the frame. We bought scrap metal and

made the brackets fit rather than buying new metal and following plans.

This is a low budget job and we do not have any faires scheduled till

next spring. We are making it up as we go.

 

That is where we stopped. The original plan was to build the floor on top

of the beams. We were going to build a tubing frame welded to our brackets

that would support the walls and roof with an arched top. The walls would

sit just outside the tires and removable "fake wagon wheel" pannels would

cover the wheels when it was parked. One side is designed to drop down and

becomes a shelf for the harps and merchandise to be displayed. We looked at

the space between the beams and brackets and now we are switching to lift

up floor panels and storage space below that sits on top the truck

frame.

 

For what it is worth, I learned to weld courtesy of Uncle Sam when he made

me wear these funny green clothes for a few years. I was stupid when I

enlisted. I admit it. Not as dumb as a girl cousin who enlisted in the

navy. Her scores were so high she was given a guaranteed assignment as a

crytographer on a sub by the recruiter. It wasn't until graduation and she

traveled to her assigned ship that somebody told her that girls can't

serve on subs. I now own a MIG welder for most of my welding jobs or

borrow my dad's oxy-acetylene torch or Lincoln welder when needed.

 

If the gypsy wagon works out, it looks like it is going to work great, we

may be making them for sale to other faires and people who want one. Plan

is to make it bright colors with bed in front and storage/workshop in back.

Still debating whether to make it half heigth with a canvas top on arches

that can be raised or lowered. Or to make sheet metal sides, pop riveted to

the framework with metal/tarpaper arched top and cabinets inside. The

canvas will be lighter and less complex. If we go with metal, it means

welding the framework to fit windows and deal with leaks. The canvas means

more time setting up, taking down and packing. He would have to raise the

roof to load at home and make sure everything was out of the way to put the

roof down for towing. If it is solid, we just close the side, flip up the

stairs, close the door and go. Solid is going to be a lot heavier and a bit

more expensive to tow. We will probably decide which to use when we finish

the bottom half and see how the springs are sitting. Solid means he can

bolt a little pot bellied stove to the floor for heat just like

railroads used to use in a caboose.

 

Haven't decided how we are going to hook up brakes. We can use the original

brakes. I want to do what some U-Haul trailers do and make the hitch so it

pushes on a master cylinder when the truck brakes. More work but less

expensive than adapting an electric master cylinder to the Ford system.

Unfortunately the U-haul system does not work with a removable hitch. We

are going to have to do some more creative thinking. The master cylinder is

going to have to be mounted on top the square tubing that is bolted to

the chassie.

 

Oops, wandered off again talking about the details. If you can use any

of this, I hope it helps.

 

Bernadette

 

 

Subject: [MedEnc] Re:  Gypsy Wagon

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 12:31:12 -0400

From: "Robert Dawson, PA-C" <rdawson at ezwv.com>

To: <MedievalEncampments at egroups.com>

 

Niamh Maolan asks: "I want to build a gypsy-like camping trailer. I was wondering if anyone of you have good plans, ideas, suggestions or even some type of documentation for this type of camping."

 

I've contemplated making one over the years, but now that we have two Panther pavilions I think the trailer will end up just for hauling stuff (a trebuchet and a ballista are heavy and bulky as all get-out).  One of the reasons I spent so much brain time on the subject is that I used to race sailboats, and saw a lot of good ideas on boats that could be put to use to lighten the towing weight of a camping trailer.  In sailboats heavy = slow, and some really talented folks have spent a lot of engineering trying to lighten the 'comforts of home' for the non-serious racers (serious racers suffer :-) My philosphy now is that I can easily simulate sailboat racing at home by standing in a cold shower while burning fifty-dollar bills ;-0

 

I'd suggest looking at the book _Dinghy_Building_ by Richard Creagh-Osborne ISBN 0 8286 0073 2, LCCN 76-47918, or some other good books on boat building.  Remember increased weight = increased gas consumption, IMO it's worth spending more on lighter hardwoods, and a lighter but stronger construction.  Go to a boat show and pull out drawers ,and look under decking, etc. for joinery techniques.  As a rule of thumb, you can often use a piece of poplar that's half the dimensional size of a piece of pine, for greater strength, with less weight, and not much greater cost.

 

I've mentioned this before, but don't buy your lumber at Lowe's: their prices are consistently much higher than at a lumber yard.  I'd also suggest biting the bullet and buying a boat trailer or utility trailer to covert, you'll have less trouble with title, registration, and insurance later on.

 

McKenna

 

 

Subject: Re: [MedEnc] Re:  Gypsy Wagon

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 10:55:13 -0700 (PDT)

From: Lady Maggie <theglavins at excite.com>

To: MedievalEncampments at egroups.com

 

If you want some great inspiration check out this site.  

www.enslin.com/rae/gypsy/wagon.html

 

Lady Maggie

Margaret MacGregor of Glen Heather, AoA/APF/OGS

Seneschal, Shire of Rokeclif

Principality of Northshield

 

 

Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:06:30 -0400

From: James Koch <alchem at en.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Wagon wheels

Organization: EriNet Online Communications - Dayton, OH

 

mark lyons wrote:

> Hello all, I was wondering if anyone knows where you can get wooden

> wagon wheels from, preferable in the UK.

> --

> mark lyons

> aka

> Septimus' Chronicles

 

If you are willing to order them from the US, there is an Amish tack

shop in Mesopotamia, Ohio which can help.  They do heavy reins and such

for plow horses and work with the area's buggy makers.  Unfortunately I

don't have an address and doubt they possess a phone.  The last time I

visited their shop it was illuminated by propane lanterns.  Also, a

caveat.  The Amish do great work, but it is not inexpensive.  

 

Jim Koch

(Gladius The Alchemist)

 

<the end>



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