ships-msg - 1/24/08
Ships and shipbuilding. Sailor's food. Privateers.
NOTE: See also these files: pirates-msg, med-ships-art, ships-bib, nav-inst-msg, boat-building-msg, Seakeeping-p1-art, Seakeeping-p2-art, rope-msg.
************************************************************************
NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
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Thank you,
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Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: moonman at camelot.bradley.edu (Craig Levin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mariners, ships and like that
Date: 4 Oct 1993 18:04:09 -0500
Organization: House of the Moss Rose
uf380 at freenet.Victoria.BC.CA (William Underhill) writes:
>To any gentles out there who share this interest,
>From Lord William the Mariner, greetings, salutations and salute
>the brow...
Salutations, fellow waterman!
>Are there any gentles out there who have an interest in naval and
>marine history? By this I mean anything from marine architecture
>to naval battles, from navigation to techniques of sail - in shoret
>(sp) anything connected with ships and sailing? I'd sure like to hear
>from you. Also, does anyone out there (interested or not) know of
>some good sources for research material (don't anyone say "Try your
>local library, please. Despite the fact that we have a naval facility
>just a loud shout down the road from here, you'd think ships never
>existed until the turn of the century, to judge by what they have
>in the local public and university libraries.
>William the Mariner
Sure. I can come up with a few titles & authors right off the
bat. Anything by S. E. Morison, is good. Not only is he a Harvard
historian, he is a dedicated yachtsman, so anything he says about the
voyages of exploration is pretty much verifiable-he's sailed along
their routes, and understands the problems of the sailor. Hakluyt's
PRINCIPALL NAVIGATIONS is one of the best Tudor annals of
exploration. John Hale's another excellent author, as is J. H. Parry.
There's also H. A. Calahan, but you ought to take whatever he says
with a _large_ grain of sea salt. David Howarth's work, SOVEREIGN OF
THE SEAS, covers all of period England, and can be extrapolated to the
rest of period North Europe.
Pedro de Alcazar
--
Craig\The Moonman\Levin Pedro de Alcazar
moonman at camelot.bradley.edu Shire of Dernehealde, Midrealm
From: moonman at camelot.bradley.edu (Craig Levin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mariners, ships and like that
Date: 4 Oct 1993 23:01:41 -0500
Organization: House of the Moss Rose
blaxson at shade.UWaterloo.ca (Brian A.Laxson) writes:
>BTW Does anyone know of the capacity for cargo of late-period wooden
>ships. (I.e. 17 th century Galleons) My "local gathering of books"
>listed several launch weights but no references to the CARGO after crew,
>cannons, food stores etc.
Unfortunately, they did not think in terms of cargo tonnage as
we do. In fact, David Howarth, in his excellent book SOVEREIGNS OF THE
SEA, more or less admits that the the value of a "ton" varied from
time to time. But, if what we can glean from marine archaeology is
correct, by 1415, ships as large as 1400 tons were being constructed.
However, these were very rare-in fact, they were built by Henry V for
his French wars. More typical vessels were in the 80-550 ton range, in
the 1550's.
--
Craig\The Moonman\Levin Pedro de Alcazar
moonman at camelot.bradley.edu Shire of Dernehealde, Midrealm
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mikes at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Michael L. Squires)
Subject: Re: Mariners, ships and like that
Summary: Chaucer and William Bourne
Keywords: navigation
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1993 04:59:53 GMT
>>Are there any gentles out there who have an interest in naval and
>>marine history? By this I mean anything from marine architecture
Chaucer wrote a little book on the use of the astrolabe; I got a copy from
the Folger very cheaply. William Bourne's Regiment for the Sea was
published about 1570 and was a standard text for navigation into the 17th
century. There are also a number of 16th century English manuals on
cannon, but I haven't seen them.
The Hakluyt Society published the Regiment and a number of other books
on similar topics. They should be in a big library.
From: huff at bronze.lcs.mit.EDU (Robert Huff)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Mariners, ships and like that
Date: 5 Oct 1993 17:13:57 -0400
My local library has a really neat (if post-Restoration) book
called _Deane's Doctrine_, a reprint of a manual by Sir John Deane.
It's sort of a price guide/mil-spec/architects meta-manual on how
to build warships. (This is from memory of about two years ago -
permission to quote me is not granted ....)
Diego Mundoz
Carolingia
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (michael squires)
Subject: Re: Mid 11c. Ships
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 16:41:18 GMT
> Greetings. Are there any ship pilots resting here at the bridge? I am
> looking for information regarding merchant ships mainly sailing the English
> channel in the 11c. Any literary refrences would be helpful.
Look up the name "Bass" in your local card catalog. He is an important
underwater archaeologist and has written or co-authored books on shipping.
I have a table-top book which shows photos and reconstructions of ships
from the bronze age to the Vasa which he authored.
--
Michael L. Squires, Ph.D Manager of Instructional Computing, Freshman Office,
Chemistry Department, IU Bloomington, IN 47405 812-855-0852 (o) 81-333-6564 (h)
mikes at indiana.edu, mikes at ucs.indiana.edu, or mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu
From: james at nucleus.cuc.ab.CA (James Prescott)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Mid 11c. Ships
Date: 22 Dec 1993 17:47:52 -0500
Organization: Atomic Data Communications
Try:
Lewis, A.R. and Runyan, T.J.
European Naval and Maritime History, 300-1500
Indiana University Press
1990
ISBN 0-253-20573-5 (pbk.)
-
Thorvald Grimsson/James Prescott (james at nucleus.cuc.ab.ca)
From: dickeney at access2.digex.net (Dick Eney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Drakkar
Date: 3 Feb 1994 21:26:38 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Peter Rose <WISH at uriacc.uri.EDU> wrote:
>Does anyone know what a Drakkar is? I know it's some kind of boat,
>but that's about it.
> --Azelin
It's the rowing galley used as a warship by the Vikings (as contrasted
with the "roundships" used as merchantmen). Means "dragon"; also spelled
drekkar; latter spelling is that used for the newsletter of Storvik in
Atlantia (storvik = "great bay"). The Longship Company of the Markland
Militia has a reconstructed Viking longship, a drakkar, and named
"Fyrdraca" ("dragon of the war-band"). She normally cruises with six
oars manned on a side but can, I believe, accomodate twenty (10 a side)
plus a handful of passengers and everybody's gear. 'Nuf for now?
|-- Vuong Manh (dickeney at access.digex.com) Storvik, Atlantia |
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: clevin at oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Craig Martin Levin)
Subject: Re: Medieval Sea Ports
Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 1994 17:21:57 GMT
Joseph Heck <ccjoe at showme.missouri.edu> wrote:
>What were the common sea ports along the 'irish sea basin'. I would assume
>Dublin would be right up there, as perhaps Barmouth... but does anyone know
>the other ports - specifically in Ireland & Wales? Or, for that matter,
>where I could find out?
The Irish Sea wasn't much of a trade route, as compared to
the Mediterranean or even the Narrow Seas. I think your best
bet is a book by the title of A NAVAL HISTORY OF ENGLAND, by
G. J. Marcus, but even he though he's "comprehensive", says
little about the Irish Sea. Maybe you might try poking
around in the index of the Mariner's Mirror, which is a
great magazine for the study of maritime history.
--
Craig Levin Pedro de Alcazar
Ohio University History Department Shire of Dernehealde
clevin at oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu Midrealm
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ab575 at FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Rebecca Cairns)
Subject: Mary Rose Report
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 18:29:10 GMT
Isabella sends greetings unto all gathered on the bridge this fine day:
As previously promised, here is Betsy True's report on the Mary Rose
lecture given by Ann Stirland last Thursday in Madison, WI. The report
is quite detailed and definitely of interest to readers of the Rialto.
For those who are interested, Betsy also posted an encoded file that
is the picture of "an orate ship" which may or may not be the Mary Rose.
This graphic was encoded using BinHex 4.0 for the MAC. To save bandwidth,
I won't post this file but if anyone is interested, they can drop me a
line and I'll e-mail it to them directly.
If any in this forum also attended the lecture and wish to add their own
report, I'd be interested to see it, as would others, I'm sure.
--------------------------- Begin Included Message ---------------------------
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.scuba-l
From: btrue at MACC.WISC.EDU
Subject: LONG: account of Mary Rose lecture
Date: Mon May 2 19:34:33 1994
An account of Ann Stirlind's lecture on the Wreck of the Mary Rose
The Mary Rose and her Crew: The Manning, Sinking and Raising of King Henry
the VIII's Flagship
Ann Stirland, University College London, Editor, International Journal of
Osteoarchaeology
Ann Stirland's background is as a physical anthropologist. A more complete
description of artifacts is given in the book of similar name by Margory
Rule, published in 1982 by Windward Press.
When Henry VIII came to the throne in 1509 he inherited 5 ships and set
about building a navy with the ambition of reclaiming France. The Mary Rose
was named after a favorite sister, her keel laid in 1511, sank in 1545,
raised and refitted in 1546 to be a warship. Three named personnel were Sir
George Carou, (Admiral?) Thomas Spait, Shipmaster, and Sir Thomas Windam,
Captain. The crew consisted of soldiers (gunners and archers) under the
captain and sailors under the master's direction for a total of 415 people.
In the only existing illustration done of her from 1546, she is shown to be
a 4 masted barque, about 600 tons, with two castles (bow and stern),
refitted with guns. There are several rows of gun ports along sides, the
lower set quite close to the water level. (90 guns were later found.) A
tent of heavy netting is stretched over the tops of the castles, presumed
to be an anti-boarding device and is believed to have trapped many of the
men during sinking (the only 30 survivors believed to have been in the
rigging).
On a calm morning in July, the Mary Rose sailed out of Portsmouth harbor
into the Isle of Wight sound to do battle. She turned to starboard to
present her broadside guns, heeled over and sank very suddenly in 40 fee
of water without a shot fired. She came to rest at 60o angle in soft silt.
An attempt was made by an Italian team to raise her but they only succeeded
in pulling her masts out. Over time the tides and storms filled her in and
eroded away the exposed port side, a shelly sea bed was laid down over all.
Her exact location was lost over time until 1980's when amateur
archeologist located her and this was confirmed by side scanning equipment.
The sound is contaminated by effluent from seaside towns (conger eels
mentioned), low viz and generally unpleasant to dive in. Exploration and
excavation of this site was accelerated using local divers (including
Prince Charles). A decision was made to raise the wreck. The Royal
Engineers made a plan to place a sling around her and raise her into a
cradle on a barge and this was done on live TV (with mishap). She now can
be viewed in a Portsmouth museum undergoing a 20 year conservation plan.
Her significance as a wreck is due to the fact that she is the only Tudor
warship found. Although nothing on this ship has the name "Mary Rose",
archeologists are quite sure of her identity because of the ornateness and
elaborateness of the artifacts and the presence of Henry VIII's insignia on
some guns.
The planking construction shows both clinker style (overlapping) in her
older construction and the newer carvel style (butt joints, end-to-end) in
the parts that were modified when she was made a warship. The carvel
planking allowed them to make gun ports with doors that sealed better when
shut, and generally was easier to seal. Some of these were no more than one
meter from the water level and her sinking is thought to be caused by
shipping water during that starboard turn with the gun ports open.
Of the 90 guns found, one was 12 feet long, some weighed 2 tons, were in a
range of sizes, including a smaller brass swivel gun. Some were quite
ornate and had a Tudor rose insignia. Items found: molds and cannon ball
shot of various sizes, novel anti-personnel missiles of flint shards
wrapped in light wood, carved linstocks (to light the cannons), English
long bows (of yew wood from other parts of world), boxes of arrows in silk
bindings (no flights or points), leather circles with holes (thought to be
arrow spacers or a round of ammo unit.). The bows are remarkable in that
they are of extraordinary draw weight. Modern bows are at 40-60 lbs. Of
these, most were at least 125 lbs, a few at 80 lbs, and three at 180 lbs
(had to be sitting to use). This is beyond most modern athletes ability to
draw, a record mentioned was about 80 lbs. Ann mentioned that all able
bodied men of that age were supposed to be practiced at long bow from the
age of 6 onward.
The site was well preserved by the anaerobic environment of the silt. Other
artifacts included: Ship's bell (brass?), block and tackle (wooden), tools
(wooden, metal), ship's compass (metal), carpenters tools (wooden, metal),
lantern (wooden), dishes (wooden), spoons (wooden), bottles, musical
instruments, pewter plate ware, tankard (or tyg, wooden), bowl (elm) with
personal mark, leather jerkin, leather shoes (with complete feet still in
them as bones), combs (with nit's eggs), pepper mill with pepper corns.
The barber-surgeon's quarters held an oak chest of tools of his trade.
Pottery of various sorts, i.e.. bleeding bowls, knives and saws, urethral
syringe (for treatment of gonorrhea with mercury) general anesthetic
(mallet!), velvet cap (as seen in a Hans Holbein painting of a
barber-surgeon
Human remains study was immensely difficult because of the extent of mixing
of body parts.totally commingled burial. Ann was impressed, though, by the
pristine condition of the bones (muscle insertions very clear) due to the
anaerobic environment of silt. She estimated that she has 92 fairly
complete skeletons and a sample of a total of 179 bodies. There was bony
evidence of battle injuries, occupational stresses and diet. She was
impressed that there were few fractures in the collection of bones: 3 ribs
(they likely wore half armor), 11 skulls (healed depressed fractures), a
nose fracture, a couple of cases of healed child hood rickets and an
avulsion fracture of the tibia (muscular pulling of bone). Bony avulsion
fracture of tibia was similar to same occurring when one jumps down to a
surface moving upward (like a ship deck). One unusual spinal lumbar area
showed overgrowth locking of articular surfaces. She postulated might be
from working in a low ceilinged gun bay (construction showed to be lower
than average height of men) hauling great weight of cannon where the added
stress of having to work slightly bent over would show in the bones. She
felt the shoulders showed stress of lifelong archery practice from her
research into Olympic athletes' injuries: 14.5% unjoined acromium (?) where
3% is normal. One skull had a neat healed impression of a bodkin armor
piercing arrowhead point in the cranium, a possible shot from above and
through an inadequate helmet.
Ann theorizes that these men were probably healthier and larger in stature
than the normal population of the time. They were all males, ages ranging
from late teens to over 40, one 10 year old, possibly a cabin boy.
Because of the hosts of people coming forward spuriously claiming
descendancy and reburial, the caretakers of these remains have chosen to
keep a low profile and to only make them available for anthropologists'
study, so they are not on display.
Betsy True, Medical Illustrator Medical Illustration, Univ. of WI-Madison
H6/134 CSC 608-263-6028 btrue at macc.wisc.edu
---------------------------- End Included Message ----------------------------
In service to the Dream,
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*
* SCA: Isabella Oakwood | *
* Barony of Skraeling Althing, | "I hear and I forget, *
* Ealdormere, Midrealm | I see and I remember, *
* MKA: Rebecca Cairns | I do and I understand." *
* Kanata, Ontario Canada | - Confucius. *
* NET: ab575 at FreeNet.carleton.ca | *
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (michael squires)
Subject: Re: steam engine
Summary: they had the technology
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 15:42:05 GMT
Suze.Hammond at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Suze Hammond) writes:
>As James Burke has so often pointed out in "Connections", many ideas are
>tinkered with off and on for centuries until some much-needed technology
>(such as consistant metalurgy for decent boilers, and the technology to
>make a relatively air tight piston-to-cylinder fit, in this case) catches
>up to the imaginations of humanity.
One of the (main deck?) guns on the Mary Rose, sunk 1545 and raised in 1981,
was a breech-loader made of a single sheet of wrought iron forged around a
mandrel using a large trip-hammer and forge-welded into a cylinder. When
discovered it was thought to be one of the standard iron guns forged out
of bundles of iron rods, but X-rays showed the true structure.
Iron was delivered to the gunworks in "blooms" which had to first be forged
into a sheet or rod before being forged into a cannon. Later in the century
the English figured out how to cast iron into large cannons with a fairly
small risk of explosion. The casting process required the bore be drilled
out after casting. Muzzle-loaders replaced breech-loaders as gunpowder
got much better during the late 16th century and gunnery tactics moved
towards longer ranges and the breech-loaders couldn't contain the gas
pressure.
Piston seals were made of leather into the late 19th century.
The main problem for a 20th century engineer caught in 16th century
England would be (1) the boiler (2) something useful to do with the engine.
Steam engines came into common use in England and Wales to pump out mines
which had been mined so deeply that water was filling up the diggings, and
horse/ox/man power was insufficient to pump out the water.
--
Michael L. Squires, Ph.D Manager of Instructional Computing, Freshman Office,
Chemistry Department, IU Bloomington, IN 47405 812-855-0852 (o) 81-333-6564 (h)
mikes at indiana.edu, mikes at ucs.indiana.edu, or mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu
From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Viking Ship Info
Date: 26 Mar 1995 21:03:06 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
<from: dnb105 at psu.edu (Ferret)>
>Could you possibly E-mail or post any dimensions of the original ships ?
>Most noteable the keel depth and displaement. Perhaps easier would be some
>titles that include dimensions or prints.
You might try a book called _The Viking_, published by Crescent Books,
in 1975 (and later) in agreement with the original publishers AB Nordbok.
There is no specific author, although Bertil Almgren is the "Chief
Contributor". The LC number is 82-830302 (for that matter, since PSU
doesn't appear to have a copy, the OCLC number is 9371738). It's not
the archaeological work I'd prefer to suggest to you, but it's got some
decent drawings in it (and has the added bonus on not being in Danish :) ).
"Mihi Satis Apparet Propter Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
Se Ipsum Appetenda Sapientia" University of Northkeep
-- St. Dunstan Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)
From: 2Lt Aryeh JS Nusbacher <nusbacher-a at rmc.ca>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Sailcloth (was Re: SCA Fallacies)
Date: 14 Apr 1995 17:51:07 GMT
Organization: Royal Military College of Canada
I don't know about Mediterranean sails, but English and other northern
European sails were made out of hemp, not cotton, for most of the
period that there _were_ sails.
Aryk Nusbacher |
Post-Graduate War Studies Programme |
Royal Military College of Canada |
Kingston, Ontario
From: darrell.markewitz at ambassador.com (Darrell Markewitz)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: VIKNG SHIP LAUNCH
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 13:45:20 GMT
Organization: AMBASSADOR BOARD (519) 925-2642 HST/V.32bis
This is a copy of a note I sent to the CBC - you all will be interested!
VIKING SHIP is launched in Newfoundland!
I am writing you to let you know about a developing story taking place
in Newfoundland.
Viking Boat Tours is a new commercial venture being 'launched' by Paul
Compton of St. Lunaire. He has organized the research, design and
construction of a replica of a Norse 'knaar', the same type of vessel
that brought the first European colonists to North America, some time
about the turn of the first millennium. The 'Viking Saga' is a 43 ft
version of the type of merchant ship that was used by the Norse traders
who followed in the wake of the better known Viking 'dragon ships'.
Although fitted out to modern safety standards, the 'Viking Saga' is
based on the slightly larger ship known as Skuldelev 1, excavated in
Denmark. The original ship is dated to the 11th century, roughly
contemporary to the settlement at L'anse aux Meadows, Newfoundland.
The World Heritage Site at L'anse aux Meadows preserves the remains of
this first settlement attempt by the Norse. It pre-dates the much
heralded English colonies on the American east coast by some 600 years.
A combination of archaeological and saga evidence dates the settlement
to some time between 996 and 1010 AD. The site was not discovered until
the early 1960's by the Norwegian Helge Ingstad. It consists of the
ruins of some 10 structures, including dwellings, boat sheds and a
forge. The colony is thought to have endured for about four years before
it was abandoned. It may have also served as an over wintering shelter
and ship repair station.
My connection with this enterprise is small. As a blacksmith
specializing in historic reproductions, I have produced a few items for
the project. I have had a long interest in the Norse culture and the
exploration of Vinland. In 1993 & 94, I researched and produced historic
display based on the L'anse aux Meadows settlement for the Orangeville
Medieval Festival.
The Viking Saga thus is the first ship of its type to be built in Canada
for 1000 years. It is a tribute to the beginnings of European history in
Canada. The story of Viking Boat Tours marks a success story in a
region that has had little good news of late.
For more information reguarding the launch of the Viking Saga contact:
Paul Compton
Viking Boat Tours
Box 45
St. Lunaire, NFLD, A0K 2X0
709-623-2464
709-623-2098 (FX)
Submitted by:
Darrell Markewitz
the Wareham Forge
the Hamlet of Wareham
RR # 2 Proton Station, ON, N0C 1L0
519-923-9219 (wareham.forge at ambassador.com)
From: 2Lt Aryeh JS Nusbacher <nusbacher-a at rmc.ca>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hard Tack anyone?
Date: 19 Jun 1995 16:52:30 GMT
Organization: Royal Military College of Canada
elbert at robles.callutheran.edu (Faedrah) wrote:
> I'm doing a report on the food eaten by sailors from the year 1550 BACK.
> hard tack is a likely kinda thing as well as jerky, limes, and don't for-
> get the rum rations!
I would suggest that before 1550, you would find none of the above; except
perhaps some sort of dried meat (more likely salt pork), and perhaps
not even that.
Ship's biscuit, but not, I think, hardtack.
Fresh meat and vegetables, on the other hand, do not seem unlikely.
Remember that before 1550, almost all maritime routes were coastwise.
Even early voyages of exploration (Vasco da Gama, for instance) were
largely extended coasting expeditions. Captains had ample opportunity
for putting in to buy supplies, hunt local wildlife, and drive the dodo
into extinction.
The Spanish Plate Fleet was
just starting to be deployed on its annual run to America in the
16th century; and it sailed with long-haul supplies; but off the top
of my head I think that in addition to carrying water and biscuit,
ships carried a certain amount of livestock. Salt fish, of course,
was a staple of all military and naval supply around 1550 in most of
Europe; especially herring from the North Sea and cod from the Grand
Banks.
Garrett Mattingly's book on the Armada covers a lot of the logistical
considerations of the Invincible Armada of 1588, but remember that
even that expedition touched shore at several points before expecting
to reach the Netherlands.
I think a ration of spirits in the Navy probably dates back to the
use of Irish grain alcohol as a substitute for the more usual beer
ration during the late sixteenth century wars in Ireland. Rum would
have waited for extensive planting in the West Indies in the 17th
century, but again that is off the top of my head.
Additional protein and crunch was, of course, provided by the weevils
in the biscuits.
Aryk Nusbacher |
Post-Graduate War Studies Programme |
Royal Military College of Canada | nusbacher-a at rmc.ca
Kingston, Ontario http://www.rmc.ca/~nusbache/home.html
From: rorice at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (rosalyn rice)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hard Tack anyone?
Date: 20 Jun 1995 02:04:58 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
2Lt Aryeh JS Nusbacher <nusbacher-a at rmc.ca> wrote:
>Additional protein and crunch was, of course, provided by the weevils
>in the biscuits.
But if you knocked the edge of the biscuit against a hard surface
like a table then you could shake the weevils out and enjoy a
protien-free repast. (Either that or you could soak the biscuit in water
or broth and then skim the inhabitants off the top, but the former method
was more common in the navy.)
Lothar (as much a landsman as Aryk but aware of this bit of naval
trivia.)
From: scj427 at aol.com (SCJ427)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hard Tack anyone?
Date: 25 Jun 1995 03:36:56 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Try turning the hard tack into soup.
Salt Pork
Hard Tack or Ship's Biscuit
Dried Beans
Water
Soak overnight and then boil.... it actually tastes excellent and the
ingredients can keep for an eon on the shelf if kept dry and free from
vermin.
Stefan MacMorrow ap Rhovannon
From: colette at morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Colette Goodyear)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hard Tack anyone?
Date: 22 Jun 1995 15:14:37 GMT
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
2Lt Aryeh JS Nusbacher <nusbacher-a at rmc.ca> wrote:
>Ship's biscuit, but not, I think, hardtack.
There's a question I've been asking myself--what is the difference
between the two? All the primary references that I've seen
refers to "ship's biscuit." For a while, I blithely assumed
that ship's biscuit and hard tack were the same thing
To bring this OOP for a second--looking at my Dictionary
of Newfoundland English, I find that hard tack and sea biscuit
are used interchangeably to refer to the same thing from the
mid-1700's onwards (the first citation the DNE gives dates
to 1766). However, the sources quoted in the Dictionary are drawn
from works that were written specifically about Newfoundland so
there is a possibility that this is a regional thing. Nowadays,
the stuff is referred to variously as "biscuit" (rare), "sea-biscuit,"
"hard-tack," "ship's bread" (again, rare), and "brewis." Sometimes
people make a distinction between the uncooked cakes (hard-tack)
and the cooked dish (brewis). The commercially available stuff
is marked "hard bread" on the package and gives a recipe for
Brewis on the side.
But, then again, I've never seen the term "hard tack" used in
the period that Faedrah and myself are interested in. So I'm
starting to wonder (a) what is the difference between the two
and (b) when and why did the terms become interchangeable (at
least in this area of the world)?
Crunching on a piece of the stuff (ow!) as I write this,
Alienor
colette at plato.ucs.mun.ca
From: Tfranklin <franklin at merlin.nando.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Drakkars
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 00:51:37 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: News & Observer Public Access
"Drakkars" were "Dragon Ships".
On an 80 foot long Dragon ship the mast rose 60-66 feet above the
bridge, and the sail itself was more than 330 square feet.
By the way, I haven't found any indication that any Vikings ever
named themselves after their boats.
An informative book on the subject of Vikings is" The Vikings:
Lords of the Seas" by Yves Cohat (Discoveries, Harry N. Abrams, Inc.
Publishers, NY) ISBN 0-8109-2865-5
Tfranklin the Librarian
From: Tfranklin <franklin at merlin.nando.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Drakkar: Reposted
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 00:15:51 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: News & Observer Public Access
Several days ago Hal Heydt quoted my posting...
>Tfranklin <franklin at merlin.nando.net> wrote:
> On an 80 foot long Dragon ship the mast rose 60-66 feet above the
>bridge, and the sail itself was more than 330 square feet.
...and wrote:
>Any chance you dropped a zero there? By rough calculations, that
>would make the sail about 5 feet wide, which seems a tad
>narrow...
>
> --Hal Ravn
Shortly thereafter Gene Clyatt added:
>Sure was easy to store, though it wouldn't catch much wind, eh?
>Fian
To which I respond today:
No, I did not drop a zero. Allow me to refer you again to "The Vikings:
Lords of the Seas" by Yves Cohat. (ISBN 0-8109-2865-5 or LC#91-75507)
The sentence reads: "The rectangular Viking sail was a great step
forward: on an 80-foot-long dragon ship, the mast rose 60-66 feet above
the bridge, and the sail itself was more than 330 square feet. (Woven in
a double thickness of a raw wool or cloth, the Viking sails were often
colored red to draw attention to the ship.)"
The book includes many pictures, including several of the Viking
ships. All of the illustrations show the bottom of the sail being
several feet *above* the level of the boat.
In fact, to quote from pages 7 and 8 of "Great Adventures of the
Vikings" by John Geipel (ISBN 528-82204-7 or LC#77-72486), he describes a
Viking longboat which was found by archaeologists: "Measuring 77.6 feet
(23.5 meters) from stem to stern, 7.6 feet (2.3 meters) across the beam,
and 6 feet (1.9 meters) from keel to gunwales...the mast originally
must...have towered about 39.6 feet (12 meters) above the deck. It's
yardarm which measured 36.3 feet (11 meters) supported a huge rectangular
sail of "wadmal", a rough woolen cloth."
I guess Hal's figures were based on a sail which started at the
deck and went to the top of the mast. In that case, Gene would be
correct in his assumption that it might be easy to store, although not
very good for catching wind. In reality, the sail clearly did *not*
cover the entire length of the mast, allowing for a greater width than
five feet.
Thomas the Librarian
From: Kel Rekuta <krekuta at tor.hookup.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: How to build a corracle?
Date: 24 Sep 1995 14:47:25 GMT
Organization: HookUp Communication Corporation, Oakville, Ontario, CANADA
> A friend asked me if I can find instructions on how to build a corracle.
> Can anyone help? Please e-mail as well as posting; I'm going to be away
> for a couple weeks and probably won't see the posting.
I would ask A. G. Smith, an illustrator, publisher and medieval
engineer / tinkerer.
He built one about ten years back. Its about eight feet long and
looks like a huge walnut shell half. Whether it floats, I couldn't
say. However, everything else I've seen him build works fine, so I
wouldn't be surprised.
He lives in Windsor Ontario and is in the phone book. Perhaps someone
on the 'Net in Windsor or Detroit could be more specific as to his
address.
Ceallach
From: "Jim N. Deakin" <J.N.Deakin at shu.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re how to build a corracle
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 11:00:04 GMT
Organization: Sheffield Hallam University
Arval said:
> A friend asked me if I can find instructions on how to build a corracle.
> Can anyone help? Please e-mail as well as posting; I'm going to be away
> for a couple weeks and probably won't see the posting.
In 'Practical Wood Working' for January 1993 (vol 27, No 11), there is an
article and plans for a Shrewsbury style coracle, as built on a course at
Bewdley Museum. It's a five page article with measurements and plenty of
details. It uses some modern materials, but period alternatives should be
simple to find. It also uses screws to attach the seat to six support props,
which would almost certainly be jointed in, in period.
There's also a book (which I haven't the references for with me) called
something like 'forgotten crafts'. It's a fairly superficial coffee-table
type of book, but it has a single page illustration showing coracle designs
from (I think) three different areas. It would probably be possible to adapt
the magazine plan to produce similar versions.
I'm not sure what the copyright position would be, but if it's impossible for
you to get hold of the article I might be able to scan the article and email
it to you. Some of it's on coloured paper, so it probably wouldn't photocopy
well.
In Service,
Niall of Stone Ford
.........................................................................
From: Jim Deakin, |
Sheffield Hallam University | This space deliberately left blank
Computer Services, |
Pond Hill, |
Sheffield S1 1WB |
England. |
Email on: J.N.DEAKIN at shu.ac.uk
From: ejpiii at delphi.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Re how to build a corracle
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 95 21:52:50 -0500
"Jim N. Deakin" <J.N.Deakin at shu.ac.uk> writes:
>> A friend asked me if I can find instructions on how to build a corracle.
In addition to the other post, you could try the Welsh museum in Cardiff Wales.
They have several books on the subject, including plans of several versions. You
might be able to find them on one of the British history usenet groups, and
there may even be a web page.
I'm sorry I don't have more complete info, but it's lost in my library,
and will likely never see the light of day again!
Eddward
From: Jeremy J. Johnson <jeremy at jjohnson.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: The MAYFLOWER III
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:24:40 GMT
The Mayflower III
The Mayflower III will be an historically accurate (as fars as possible) full
size reconstruction of the Pilgrims Mayflower of 1620. She is to be built over
the next two years on the River Thames in London, England, and then sailed on a
goodwill voyage from England to America early in 1998. She will then return to England in time for the Millennium Celebrations at the end of 1999.
We are looking for descendants of the orginal pilgrims, passengers and crew. If you know you are one please get in touch and we will keep you up to date with
progress via email and suggest ways that you could get involved with the project. We look forward to talking to you.
Our web site (URL below) contains loads of background information about the project, including some really exciting sponsorship opportunities (such as
'Treenail' and Plank sponsorship), details about the construction of the ship and a proposed route for the voyage. Other information such as educational, genealogical and historical resources is in development and will be added over the next two years.
Posted by: Jeremy Johnson, WWW:
http://www.demon.co.uk/history/mayflower/mayflower.html
Email: jeremy at jjohnson.demon.co.uk
From: FPAGNIEL at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (Frederick Pagniello)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Row a trireme....for real....
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 17:24:35 EST
Organization: University of Georgia
Salve!
I found a flier posted outside the office of the Classics Dept. today, and
thought of passing it on to the readers of the newsgroup.
ROW IN GREECE
JULY 28 to AUGUST 17, 1996
in the larget oared ship in the world
Wanted: Physically fit men and women under 5' 10" who have a sense of
humor and an appreciation of history
Rowing experience desirable but not required
For: Sea-trials of the 170-oared Greek trireme Olympias
Goals: Sprint speeds over 9 knots
Simulate battle manoeuvres
FREE accommodations in Greece!
A rowing adventure: row in unison with 169 others
Contact:
Ford Weiskittel,
Trireme Trust USA,
803 South Main Street,
Geneva, New York 14456.
This is all the information that was provided on the flier. Can't reproduce
the picture of a trireme sailing under the Greek flag, though. Vale.
Gnaeus Valerius Sidero civis Romanus.
From: car13 at psu.edu (Claire Rutiser)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Row a trireme.... Now: Viking Longship
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 18:13:16 GMT
Organization: CAC
FPAGNIEL at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (Frederick Pagniello) writes:
>Rowing in a group is not easy, as I discovered in '83 when I had the
>opportunity (twice) of rowing on the Viking longship of the Longship Company,
>at WorldCon. Never afforded the opportunity of raiding Baltimore Harbor.
>
>By the by, does anyone have the words to "Bend over Greek sailor"? One of the
>songs we rowed to. Vale.
The longship this gentleman mentions is the Fyrdraca, a 32 foot 12 oared
vessel located at Soloman's Island, Maryland. The Fyrdraca is owned and
operated by the Longship Company, which is not really a company but a
small non-profit medieval group. We also have the Gyrfalcon, a smaller
vessel which we take to demos and events.
There are few things more memorable in my life than rowing up the
Potomac River one afternoon and evening in October 1991, where we went to
meet 3 viking ships which had come over from Norway for the Columbus
aniversery. Traffic slowed on the George Washington Parkway (on the
Virginia side of the Potomac) and the people who saw us must have mistaken
our 32 foot boat for the 60 foot plus boats from Norway. [They used gas
engines -we don't.]
If anyone is interested in rowing the longship, we would love to
have you. We will be having trips about twice a month once the boat
gets in the water this spring. There is an email list to notify members
of voyages. For more info email me at: car13 at ecl.psu.edu.
- Claire
From: corwyn at aol.com (CORWYN)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Row a trireme....for real....
Date: 21 Mar 1996 22:31:48 -0500
Admiral Corwyn here
I couldnt resist the urge to stick my oar in on this topic, as well as the
urge to make the preceeding pun.
jkrissw at aol.com (JkrissW) writes
> masters at nwlink.com (Tom Gibson) writes:
>>The problem
>>they had is that rowing (multi-persons per oar) is not something you
>>learn in a short time (real oarsmen [slaves] were [ahem] "full-time
>>professionals").
>I hate to pierce the bubble of years of Hollywood images, but in the glory
>days of the ancient Greek city-states, the rowers were paid or
>conscripted, but not slaves. I can't quote a source offhand, but I
>remember seeing this in several pertinent histories. There are a number
>of references to the oarsmen taking up arms to assist the marines on deck
>after their ship had grappled an enemy.
Correct on both points. Slave driven oared galleys were most typical in
the renn. Mediterranean war galleys (mohammedan and christian) as well as
later. Unsuprisingly, the use of slaves required a different (and far
simpler) rowing arrangement- one level of oars, with multiple oarsmen
chained to it. As a trivia note the outside orasman, who had to keep the
pace, and needed some skill, was often a non-enslaved prisioner (ie, a
criminal or converted slave).
Some good sources for the topic:
Casson, L _Ships and seamanship in the ancient world_ Princeton
university press, 1971
Anderson, RC, _Oared Fighting ships_ , 1957
Rodgers, WL Greek and Roman Naval Warfare_ naval Institute press, 1937,
(recently reprinted)
_The age of the galley: mediterranean oared vessles since pre-classical
times_ Conway's History of the ship, J Morrison, ed. Naval institute press
(in USA) 1995 (The best And most recent of the lot for nuts and bolts of
oared ships, construction, use, evolution, etc)
Casson, L _The ancient mariners_ Princeton university press, 1991 (very
good general reference-the most accessable and cheapest of the lot)
Okay. Thanks for your tolerance. I feel much better now.
If you are in the Mists (West K). for collegium, and want to know more
drop by my class.
Avast and belike. Heave along ho. Kedge out the fo'csl yarbloccoughs.
Baron Corwyn Da Costa, Lord High Admiral , West kingdom (CINCNAVWEST),
etc.
From: Corbie <corbie at radix.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Vanity SCA plates (was Re: YKYITSCAW...)
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 19:08:18 -0500
Organization: RadixNet Internet Services
Ann Sheffield wrote:
>
> The Longship Company is a group in Maryland that owns, maintains, and
> sails/rows a reproduction Viking ship. In the eighties, when a certain
> BMW advertising campaign and a certain vogue in fitness equipment
> cooincided, they had a bumper sticker that read:
>
> THE LONGSHIP COMPANY LIMITED: THE ULTIMATE ROWING MACHINE
>
> -Ann Sheffield
I've seen the supposed 'longship' in question (met them at a boat
event), and it was quite awful -- the Longship Company apparently had a
hard time conveying their wishes to the boatbuilder, and so they got
what basically looks like a modern double-ended fishing boat (ca. 1900)
with a dragon's head stuck on the front. Bleah.
I feel sorry for them when I heard the story of their woes with the
shipbuilder. But (from a boatbuilding pov) Dragonships are quite
difficult... all that wood to steam-bend!
What I don't like about them is the attitude of one of their volunteers,
who apparently knows everything possible about Viking life -- he's quite
the scholar -- and therefore feels it's his right to be quite arrogant
and patronizing to anyone in non-period clothing (as I was -- jeans and
a volunteer t-shirt for the organization I was with). Ugh. (Look, do I
really need or want a 20-minute dissertation on nalbinding when I'd
rather talk to the other volunteers about how the ship actually
handles?)
Oh well. That's not precisely on-topic for this thread. Just letting
off steam...
Corbie
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 11:55:36 -0400
From: "James A. Barrow" <redfalcon at thomson.net>
Organization: Red Falcon Armouries
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Research Help
GWB wrote:
> I am relatively new to the Society and am seekign a wee bit of help. I
> have chosen a mid 16th century ships master (armed Merchantman) as my
> persona. The problem I have is the lack of information on merchant
> shipping of that period.
>
> There appears to be a plethora of information about Naval vessels but
> not much on merchant men. The most helpful things I have found so far
> are bigraphies of Sir Francis Drake and Sir John Hawkins.
>
> Alaric Morgenseg, Master of the "Sea Dragon" (the ships name may change
> shortly)
Like most of the references that you have run across, my knowledge is more to the technical side of the ships rather than the men who sailed them. However, perhaps I can "steer" you in the right direction (OK, so that was weak).
Essentially, there were two types of merchant shipping during this time period. The first consisted of transport of goods of state and/or military significance. These merchantmen sailed in larger convoys, protected by whatever vessels the navy could spare at the moment, from the big ships of the line all the way down to the light corvetttes and fast frigates.
The second type is what you personna is geared toward: the armed merchantmen, or
privateer. At this period in time, the two main seapowers were England and Spain. France had not yet arisen as a strong force in overseas trade and colonization, and Portugal, who historically had a strong seafaring tradition, had been forced into an uneasy alliance with Spain. Naturally, being the two main contenders for control of shipping lanes, England and Spain were at war.
Armed merchantmen were typically funded by private citizens or limited partnerships for the express intent of turning a profit. Letters of Marque were issued to the captains. These were documents issued by the Crown that in effect legitimized piracy, but only toward the vessels of an enemy or its allies. Now, obviously, a state of declared war must exist between two nations before the Letters were issued, which led to a great drawback of the privateering trade: not knowing when the war was over. A voyage of a privateer may last several years, particularly those sailing to the Americas to prey on galleons returning from the New World loaded with treasure. There were several cases of the Fleet Commandant of a small armed merchant fleet sailing from England, attacking
Spanish and Portugese shipping, returning to England with his spoils, and then being hung for piracy because the war had ended while he was at sea, and his Letters of Marque had been revoked before they had expired.
Which leads to the second great danger of being a privateer: while your government has blessed you with the sacred task of harrying enemy shipping, your still just a pirate to the enemy, not subject to the normal protocols of dealing with captured prizes. The immediate punishment for those found guilty of piracy was hanging. When a legitimate naval vessel lost an engagement, the ship would be officially surrendered (provided it wasn't sunk), the sailors taken prisoner, and a prize crew set on it to sail her to the nearest friendly port for emergency repairs, and then on to her new country for a refit, after which she became a commissioned vessel. The vanquished officers were treated with deference to their rank.
A privateer's life expectancy after defeat, however, was about as long as it took to throw a rope over a yardarm. Knowing this, privateers were EXTREMELY careful about who and when they engaged. Capture of a privateer was a long a bloody fight, because the merchantmen knew that they could not surrender, lest they swing in the breeze. If they were lucky enough to be taken to shore after capture, Jesuit inquisitors usually were responsible for the trials, which had but one outcome: pronounced guilty of piracy on the high seas, proclaimed a heretic, and burned at the stake.
The armed merchantman was one of the best strategies employed by England during the war with Spain (I may be mistaken, but I don't think Spain Issued Letters of Marque....don't quote me on that though). It used ships and crews that cost the Crown nothing to harry the Spanish all over the world. To protect the larger galleons, more ships of the line had to be pulled from fleet service to be sent to convoy duty, which made life easier on English fleet. Capture of a privateer was an iffy proposition at best, not only because of the ferocity of the privateers, but also because they were typically smaller and very heavily armed. To attack a privateer one on one with anything less than a ship of the line was paramount to suicide. However, the large behemoths necessary to subdue the
privateers were too slow to catch them on the open seas. The most effective way the Spanish ever found to deal with armed merchantmen was to hunt them with small packs of corvettes class frigates that were essentially counterparts of the privateers.
Perhaps a good research avenue for you would be to locate Letters of Marque issued during the 1600's. Just reading them should provide a wealth of info.
I hope this helps somewhat.
Oh, BTW, COOL personna! My personna is also 1600's, but Spanish. HMMM....Oh, the possibilities!!
In service,
Jaime Alejandro del Halcon
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 13:08:40 -0400
From: "James A. Barrow" <redfalcon at thomson.net>
Organization: Red Falcon Armouries
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: More Privateering (was Research Help)
Mark S. Harris wrote:
> Greetings unto Jaime Alejandro del Halcon,
>
> "James A. Barrow" <redfalcon at thomson.net> wrote:
> > The second type is what you personna is geared toward: the armed
> > merchantmen, or privateer.
>
> <snip>
>
> I fear I must take exception to this statement, although the differance
> may be one of semmantics. Are you classing all merchantmen that carried
> armament as privateers? I would think this would not be the case. There
> were a number of merchantmen that would carry a few to many cannon for
> their own defense. If the merchantmen that the privateers were preying
> upon were unarmed then there would not have been the need for the
> privateers to be as heavily armed as they were. They weren't armed
> primarily to fight off the enemy naval vessels for you yourself said
> they couldn't really do that, that speed was their main defense.
>
> Please clarify your statement. Even if you were drawing the line
> between a lightly armed merchantman and a heavily armed merchantmen/
> privateer, the original poster may not have been.
>
> Thanks.
> Stefan li Rous
Stefan:
No, not all merchantmen could be classified as privateers; however, for
their own defense, nearly every merchant vessel was armed to some
degree, mainly for defense against pirates, although less scrupulous
captains were certainly not above taken prizes of opportunity when
possible, and therefore engaging in piracy themselves.
The term "armed merchantman" is specifically used to refer to a vessel
whose master has been granted Letters of Marque, also referred to as a
privateer. Just because a merchantman is armed does not make her a
"armed merchantman", or "privateer", just like owning a revolver does
not make a person a cowboy.
As to what the original poster intended to mean, I cannot say. I only
assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that because he used the term "armed
merchantman" he understood the historical context that the phrase should
be taken in.
Sorry about the confusion!!
Jaime
From: Tom Rettie <tom at nospamformeplease.his.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: steam bending (was Re: Making Portable SCA
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:30:37 -0700
Robert (Morphis at physics.niu.edu) Wrote:
> My understanding is that Henry the VIII's fleet was made using
> steam boxes, but I am told that the Viking ships were not, each
> plank being hewn to shape. Any thoughts or knowledge out there
> about either of these alledged facts?
I've done some research on medieval shipbuilding, and I've never found
any references to steam bending in period ship construction. Keep in
mind that planking tended to be either unseasoned, or at least less so
than we are accustomed to, and thus bends more easily than the
kiln-dried lumber you find at the lumber yard. It would also be much
easier and cheaper to just soak timbers that you thought might need it.
Early shipbuilders tended to use timber that naturally approximated the
shape they required, such as for ribs and the keel, when they could.
Hewing something to shape makes for a weaker piece, as the fibers of the
wood are cut rather than being continuous. In lapstrake construction,
the hull planks are bent to shape and then pegged (as in Viking
construction) or clench-nailed or roved (later European construction) in
place. Yes, they used iron nails, though they were expensive. In later
frame construction, the skeleton of the ship was built first, and then
the hull planks were attached to the skeleton.
I commend to you "The Good Ship" published by Johns Hopkins University
Press as a good source on period ship construction techniques. The
author's name escapes me at the moment.
That's the 10 second answer, to the best of my knowledge. Those that
know better are welcome to correct any of the above.
Findlaech mac Alasdair
Subject: ANST - scouting report ...
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 14:50:40 MST
From: "j'lynn yeates" <jyeates at bga.com>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
was killing some time in the bookstore yesterday and noted a couple
of items that might be of interest ...
* Scientific America:
this months issue has a article on the development and
engineering of norse longships. noted a number of great detail
drawings that would be useful to those interested in the construction
and design details that made these ships so unique and deadly.
* "A Tabloid Look At History": (i *think* that was the title)
a book that examines and reports many important historical incidents
from the perspective of the supermarket tabloids ... file under
humor
'wolf
From: "Lady O'Ceo (Lady of the Myst)" <ilona at peak.org>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Medieval Ships
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 10:14:55 -0700
Organization: Multi-Media Artisans
TiernanC wrote:
> I need to do some research on what types of ships were used in the early 14th
> century, namely by the Irish ans Scottish.
Maduinn math! The type of sailing vessel would depend on it's intended
use. Around Alba and Eire the shores are very rugged and the seas rough.
General requirements would be a stout hull (planked), high freeboard,
and comparatively shallow draft. Some possible types to expand your
searching:
Bark (barque), brig, schooner, galiot, galleon (technically later than
your requested period), coaster, merchanter
You could also try looking under shipwright, history of sailing, and
maritime museum. Hope this helps.
--
Rick Schmidt
Oak and Iron Forge
aka Duncan Alexander Malcolm MacDuibh Kilgour (Alex)
From: Christopher Allen Schultz <schultzc at csd.uwm.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Medieval Ships
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:00:09 -0500
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
<snip>
> Bark (barque), brig, schooner, galiot, galleon (technically later than
> your requested period), coaster, merchanter
<snip>
My interest is later (16th century) and I was going to wait until I can
get my documentation before replying. But really the Bark, Brig and
schooner are much much later, try way out of period like 18th and 19th
century. The "cog" was attributed to the Hansa which would be 14th
century, but I have not found documentation for it that old and certainly
no pictures (artist rarely reproduced ships in realistic detail in period,
the people on the ship were more important so the ship becomes a rough
sketch). The "hulk" is an earlier version of the "cog". The viking
dragon ships were still around in the 14th century, but the norsemen were
not going viking as much (shore defences had gotten to good). The galleon
is later and most of its earlier varients are limited to the Med. since
they are really not seaworthy. Columbus' toy boats were Med. coast
runners of three different types (the largest was a carrack (sp?)), but I
don't think that any of them are old enough to date back to the 15th
century.
Coaster and merchanter are descriptive terms not types of ships and were
probably used from Greek time on.
Christophe Baernklau
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:31:23 -0500
From: "I. Marc Carlson" <LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.edu>
Subject: re: Medieval Ships
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
<tiernanc at aol.com (TiernanC)>
>I need to do some research on what types of ships were used in the early 14th
>century, namely by the Irish ans Scottish. I realize ships were available but
>you'd be surprised that no one seems to know anything about it. I can't even
>find any books about it!
This is by no means a complete listing:
Friel, Ian. The Good Ship; Ships, Shipbuilding and Technology in England,
1200-1520. London: British Museum Press, 1995.
Gardiner Robert and Richard W. Unger. Cogs, Caravels, and Galleons, the
Sailing Ship, 1000-1650. Annapolis: Naval Institute Press, 1994.
Hutchinson, Gillian. Medieval Ships and Shipping. London: Leicester
Leicester University Press, 1994.
Marsden, Peter. Ships of the Port of London; Twelfth to Seventeenth
Centuries AD. London: English Heritage.
Seaver, Kirsten. The Frozen Echo, Greenland and the Exploration of
North America, 1000-1500. Stanford: Stanford University Press, 1996.
Unger, Richard W. The Ship in the Medieval Economy, 600-1600. London:
Croom Helm, 1980. (An extensive bibliography, but since I haven't
actually read all them, I'm reluctant to suggest them.)
You can also try (as general outlines):
Landstrom, Bjorn. The Ship, an illustrated history.
NY: Doubleday, 1961.
Canby, Courtland. A history of ships and seafaring. 1963.
I'm not sure just how much the Irish or the Scots did by sea, other
than fishing. As far as I can determine (with the limited resources
I have on hand this moment), neither had a truely distinctive shipbuilding
or international trade thing.
>I'd also like to know about passages, like what the fee would be for passage
>between the two countries and was there piracy? (I'm sure there was). Any
>info and refernce will be helpful.
Well, it could just be that the crennelations on the Cogs were just there
to fight off the stiff trade competition :) I'm afraid I have no idea about
what passage might have cost, however.
The basic ships of the early to mid 14th century in the nothern seas, as
opposed to those of the Mediterranean, seem to have been "Coasters" (such
as the Kalmer boat) smallish vessels used for fishing or local
transportation, a "roundship" (such as those seen in the seals of the
Cinque Ports) clearly derived from the old Norse double ended vessels,
old Knorrs (a centuries old Norse design used for long range ocean
voyages, such as to Iceland and Greenland), Stern ruddered vessels
derived from the roundships, and finally the (relatively) huge squared
hulled Cogs. The roundships are probably those that are also referred
to as "Hulks"
Marc/Diarmaid O'Duinn
lib_imc at centum.utulsa.edu
From: Obsidian <"obsidian" at raex.(NOSPAM)com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Medieval Ships
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 10:35:59 -0400
Organization: The Obsidian Group
TiernanC wrote:
> I need to do some research on what types of ships were used in the early 14th
> century, namely by the Irish ans Scottish.
<snip>
> I'd also like to know about passages, like what the fee would be for passage
> between the two countries and was there piracy? (I'm sure there was).
Typical 14th century vessels were cogs. The cog design was developed
out of Scandinavian knarrs (not Viking longships, those were much
narrower). Cogs were anywhere from 25 to 75 feet long, and wide-beamed,
with blunt, stubby prows. They were usually single-masted, though later
period vessels start to add more. Warships of the era were essentialy
the same thing, with "castles" fitted out fore and aft, for archers or
catapults.
I'm not real familiar with the exchange rates, so I'm afraid to say
much, lest I steer you wrong. Obviously a pilgrim in a large party going
from Dover to Calais would be paying a lot less than a noble travelling
from Dover to, say, Italy. Standard monies of the era all over Europe
were descendents of the denarius; silver coins noticeably smaller and
thinner than modern dimes. In the British Isles, this was the penny, and
its purchasing power was very very roughly about $1.00 modern American.
So I wouldnt be surprised if fares started at half a pound or more (ie.
$100.00 +)
Piracy? Boy was there ever. In the British Isles a constant threat were
North African slavers, and French pirates. So prevalent was this danger
that any vessel spotted at sea was automatically assumed to be hostile;
and it is one of the factors accounting for the fact that Mediaeval
seamen hugged coastlines at all times (the other being that there was no
reasonable way of determining longitude back then).
Nigel FitzMaurice, Forester
From: gtv_13 at my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Medieval Ships
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 23:28:56 GMT
"Thomas Bravard" <thumb at direct.ca> wrote:
> There was something called a COG tended to be used by the
> merchant countries. St Brendan sailed a leather boat that is
> a wooden frame with leather stretched over it. I know that
> a replica was sailed across the Atlantic.
>
> Piracy.....Oh yeah the Irish were famous for it. Into the Elizabethan era.
> passage was what you could afford.
>
> Thomas
St. Brendan was supposed to have lived around the 6th Century. His vessel was
called a curragh (or canoe). I read the book about the replica ("The Brendan
Voyages) and Nat'l Geographic published an article by the same author with
photos. (The curragh was on the cover; sorry, I don't remember what issue.)
BTW, a comment was made that, besides modern survival rations provided by a
commercial sponsor, they took along Period foodstuffs (cheese, sausages,
etc.). The modern stuff didn't hold up too well against the elements, but the
Period food, other than for occasional green fuzz (which they scraped off) did
remarkably well. Think about it!
Jordi d'Andraitx
From: ldcharls at swbell.net
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Medieval Ships
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 17:43:25 +0000
TiernanC wrote:
> I need to do some research on what types of ships were used in the early 14th
> century, namely by the Irish ans Scottish. I realize ships were available but
> you'd be surprised that no one seems to know anything about it. I can't even
> find any books about it!
>
According to the History Channel documetary "The Great Ships" the
Viking longships (knarr and drakaar) began to be replaced around the
12th or 13th century by the 'cog', a sailing ship with higher sides than
the Viking ships as well as 'castles' fore and aft for defense against
boarders.
Lord Charles MacKinnon
Barony of Bryn Gwlad
Kingdom of Ansteorra
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 8:48:17 -0500
From: "I. Marc Carlson" <LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.edu>
Subject: re: Medieval Ships
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
<Larry Johnson <ljohnsn1 at idt.net>>
>In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue. A little rhyme that was taught to
>grade school students before outcome based education and multiculturalism were
>introduced into the curriculum. A little note aside, the three ships of
>Columbus were pretty old when the Queen of Portugal gave them to him. Another
>ship to look up is called the Mary Rose, a wreck off the East Coast of
>England, where about 175 English Longbows were recovered recently. Noted in
>the book, Longbow, by Robert Hardy.
My understanding is that at the end of the 14th century there were some
major shifts in ship design resulting from the marriage of the "Cog"
and "Hulk" forms, so that really ships after about 1400, including
the Mary Rose, and the Nina, Pinta and the Santa Maria were similar
to (but not identical to) ships from before 1400, but were *more*
similar to later era ships. I thought the person who wrote in had
asked about 14th century (1300s era) vessels.
As an aside, a Cog was purportedly excavated from Bremen some time
back (all I've seen are references to it, so I am reluctant to be
more specific).
Marc/Diarmaid
lib_imc at centum.utulsa.edu
From: clevin at ripco.com (Craig Levin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Medieval Ships
Date: 5 Jun 1998 14:11:16 GMT
TiernanC <tiernanc at aol.com> wrote:
>I need to do some research on what types of ships were used in the early 14th
>century, namely by the Irish ans Scottish. I realize ships were available but
>you'd be surprised that no one seems to know anything about it. I can't even
>find any books about it!
Most material on late mediaeval shipping is centered on the
Mediterranean, with the exception of stuff on the Hanseatic
League and a goodly smidgen of material on the English coastal
defenses, some of which I did myself as a Master's thesis about
three years ago. In all my searches for signs of an active Gaelic
presence on the seas in the fifteenth century, I found
essentially nothing. If you like, I will send you my thesis on
English coastal defense, and/or a smaller work I did at the same
time on ship design, which, alas, is mostly based on
Mediterranean sources; just give me a little time to resurrect
them from my old 386sx...
>I'd also like to know about passages, like what the fee would be for passage
>between the two countries and was there piracy? (I'm sure there was). Any
>info and refernce will be helpful.
One thing I _can_ say is that piracy and smuggling was probably
endemic to every ocean until very recently. Piracy is generally
going to do well when there's no major naval power in a given
area. In the late Middle Ages, this was the case in the North
Atlantic. The closest that either side of the Hundred Years War
ever got to having a regular navy similar in operation to a
modern navy was when Henry V purchased around three dozen ships
with money from the Chamber (his personal purse) to tear apart
everything on the northern coast of France. The regents who
governed the land after his death for his son sold the ships off
to pay his huge war debt. Usually, if ships were needed for a
military purpose (almost always shipping troops or supplying
them, in England's case), the king bought cargo or passenger
space like any other customer. There's one major exception-the
Cinque Ports-but if you want to get into that, I may as well send
you the Master's thesis!
Passage, even for the king, seems to essentially have been what
the market would bear. In dire emergencies, the king might order
a draft of all ships and men from a port or set of ports, but
they seem to have been paid even then-or if they weren't, you can
be sure that they'd make themselves "unavailable" for the next
such mission.
Dom Pedro de Alcazar
Barony of Storvik, Atlantia
Storvik Pursuivant
Argent, a tower purpure between 3 bunches of grapes proper
--
http://pages.ripco.com:8080/~clevin/index.html
clevin at ripco.com
Craig Levin
From: Dmckeon at swcp.com (Denis McKeon)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Medieval Ships
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:42:51 -0600
Bomlin wrote:
...
>I had the lucky experience of working in London for about a year and a half and
>I visited the Naval Museum in Portsmouth twice. The Mary Rose musuem is very
>well done. The HMS Victory(Nelson's ship) is also on display within 100 feet
>of the Mary Rose. The Mary Rose is currently in a temporary facility which is
>being used to treat the lumber so that it will not decay any furthur. The
>Victory is on display outside in a drydock.
>
>For planning purposes, Portsmouth is about 2 hours by train from Waterloo
>station.
For something a bit closer to London, although mostly past the SCA period,
may I strongly recommend a 20-minute ride on the Docklands Light Rail
from Tower Hill down the north side of the Thames to Island Gardens
and a walk under the Thames in the Greenwich Foot Tunnel to:
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/ National Maritime Museum, Greenwich, London, UK
which has a room full of detailed ship models, nearly all of which were
made contemporaneously with the ships they represent, and in many cases
were contructed for the naval architect or shipyard owner to use as a
selling piece: "Yes, Admiral, 34 guns, and the flag cabin would be here ...."
There are also various non-nautical places of interest in Greenwich,
several closer to period, but I'll leave that for another thread.
To return, one can ride by boat up-river, past the Tower, and the
reconstruction of the Globe Theatre, to Westminster, and try to imagine
what it all would have looked like before the bridges were built.
The History channel, IIRC, has been running a well-done series on old ships -
ranging from Viking longboats through square-riggers.
The 18 books in Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin series are also past
period (1800-1815), but are delightful nautical reading. Imagine the
period and manners of Jane Austen combined with nautical topics better
done than Forester's Hornblower.
For more on that topic, and for other nautical URLs, see:
http://www.swcp.com/~dmckeon/general.html#nautical
Bennet
al-Barran
Outlands
From: "Morgan E. Smith" <mesmith at calcna.ab.ca>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Cogs/etc.
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:06:36 -0600
Organization: Calgary Community Network Assoc.
Recently someone was asking about medieval ships, and so forth - I
wasn't really following the thread too closely, but yesterday I noticed
that the Naval Institute Press has a listing for the following book:
from Conway's History of the Ship series
Cogs, Caravels and Galleons: the Sailing Ship 1000-1650 AD
Professor Richard W. Unger
ISBN 1557501246
49.95US
Morgan the Unknown
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:01:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Jenne Heise <jenne at tulgey.browser.net>
To: SCA Arts list <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Ships, anyone?
A web site that I just came across, containing the lecture notes of a
University of Bangor professor on 'history/archaelogy of the ship':
http://www.history.bangor.ac.uk/Shipspecial/SHIP_int.htm
This was cited in the less scholarly but still fascinating, web page on
Ancient Greek ships:
http://www.bulfinch.org/fables/grkship.html
(This page is an addendum to the web site on Bulfinch's Mythology).
Jadwiga Zajaczkowa (Shire of Eisental; HERMS Cyclonus), mka Jennifer Heise
jenne at tulgey.browser.net
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:07:00 -0800 (PST)
From: sion warwick <lostboy_sion at yahoo.com>
To: northshield net <northshield at minstrel.com>,
sca-arts x <SCA-ARTS at UKANS.EDU>
Subject: new publications
New publication listings,
Sion
Steffy, J Richard `Wooden ship building and the interpretation of
shipwrecks', 314pp, Chatham Publishing, Jan 1999, hbk, ISBN 1 86176
104 X
<snip>
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:12:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jenne Heise <jenne at tulgey.browser.net>
To: SCA Arts list <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: a few web sites
The following are excerpted from the Net Scout Report:
15. Medieval English Urban History
http://www.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/towns.html
<snip>
6. The Cely Papers
http://www.r3.org/bookcase/cely/index.html
<snip>
7. NAVIS [Java]
http://home.rhein-zeitung.de/~rzentral/
Sponsored by the European Commission Directorate General X, this site hosts
a database on ancient ship archaeology, with information on over 100
ancient shipwrecks all over Europe. The site can be somewhat confusing and
difficult to navigate, but it contains a wealth of information for
archaelogists and perhaps ancient historians and classicists. The database
is searchable by several options (wreck information, ship contents,
literature, exact dating, component images, and search & plot) or
browseable by ship number or country. Additional resources at the site
include image and distribution maps (robust system strongly recommended),
two thematic reviews (Fleets and Frontiers, Maritime Commerce), overviews
of ten European maritime museums, and related links. A help section and
guided tour are available. [MD]
13. Capitolium.org: the Official Website of the Imperial Forums [.avi or
Quicktime]
http://www.capitolium.org/english.htm
<snip>
Jadwiga Zajaczkowa (Shire of Eisental), mka Jennifer Heise
jenne at tulgey.browser.net
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:21:35 -0400
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: Re: SC - Nautical foodstuffs
>I am preparing an article on foodstuffs served on Ships during period,
>especially during late period. I have lists of foods that were served, but
>I was wondering if anybody had recipes that I might also include, such as
>salmagundi, ship's biscuit, hardtack, ragout, etc.
>
>Brandu
Well, Plat (Delights for Ladies) has some very interesting (& comical)
ideas about how to preserve flesh on ships by tossing it overboard in
pierced casks & dragging it behind the boat. He also has several different
bisket recipes, a recipe for "To make Troffes for the Sea", "How to keepe
rosted Beefe a long time sweet and wholsome..." that was "fully proued in
that honourable voyage unto Cales." Etc.
Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu
renfrow at skylands.net
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 23:16:49 +0100
From: Thomas Gloning <Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de>
Subject: SC - Nautical / travel food
Let me mention two types of sources (I'll give an example for every
type):
1. Travelogues
There are many medieval and early modern (nautical) travelogues
mentioning aspects of food and nutrition. E.g. (I mentioned this example
a few months ago): Balthasar Springer sailed with a portuguese crew from
Lisbon to Cochin and Calicut and came by the Cape of good hope twice. In
his travelogue (printed 1509), he mentions that they landed at the Algoa
Bay and that they bought oxen, cows and sheep from the people there to
provide the ship with food ("da funden wir wassers genuog Ochssen Kuw
vnd Schaf/ vnd verkaufften vns die Moren genuog vmb ein wenig alts
eysens: vnd wolten sunst anders nicht haben/ wir speissten vnser Schife
do mit groser meng fleisch vnd wassers").
Another aspect is, that travellers/ sailors made their remarks about the
foreign cuisines they came across, see e.g.:
- -- Paviot, J.: Cuisine grecque et cuisine turque selon l'expŽrience des
voyageurs (XVe-XVIe sicles). In: Bryer, A./ Ursinus, M. (eds.):
Manzikert to Lepanto. The Byzantine World and the Turks 1071-1571.
Amsterdam 1991 (Byzantinische Forschungen 16).
- -- Gillet, Ph.: Par mets et par vins. Voyages et gastronomie en Europe,
XVIe-XVIIe sicles. Paris 1985.
- -- The description of making sort of 'bread' in Guinea by Samuel Brun in
his 'Schiffarten' (1624, 70f.) [should be interesting for the bread
historians; see also the introduction of Hirschberg to the facsimile, p.
XIX., where he mentions several other texts describing the near
relatives to bread found by sailors.]
- -- Not to mention the detailed account on cannibalism in the travelogue
of Hans Staden 1557 and others.
2. Medical books for travellers/sailors/passengers on ships
It seems, that there were special books that gave advice what to eat and
what not to eat on a travel or on a ship, e.g.:
- -- Schorer, Ch.: Medicina Peregrinantium, Oder Artzney der Raisenden
worinnen begriffen/ wie sich die Raisenden in Essen und Trincken/ etc.
verhalten/ vnd zugleich allerley Kranckheiten begegnen sollen (...). Ulm
1666. Roughly: 'Med. Per. or medicine for travellers, containing advice,
how the travellers should deal with (?) eating and drinking etc., and
how they can deal with all sorts of illness. Ulm 1666 (seems to be the
second ed.).
Then, there are the dictionaries (incl. the nautical dictionaries), the
cookery books and the nautical handbooks (e.g. Furttenbach, Architectura
navalis, 1629), one _could_ check ... But I won't bother you with that.
Let us know, what you find!
Thomas
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:57:16 -0400
From: "Jeff Gedney" <JGedney at dictaphone.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: liqueurs
Stefan hath writ:
> It does appear to have been used more and more as
> the making of beer changed from a cottage industry to the first mass
> production factory based industry. Probably because of it;s perservative
> properties. This shift may have been helped along by the use of hops since
> it allowed larger batches to be made and sold before they went bad.
Well, to be more precise, the preservative qualities were the impetus for
mass production of beer (at least in England). "Flemish" (hopped) Beer was
produced in prodigious quantity for supplying the Tudor navy, since it kept
much better (due to the Hops, and the pasteurizing effect of mashing and
boiling the wort) than water or any other drink.
Wine was not a primary choice of the British sailor because it was deemed
"foreign", and (if made in sufficent manner to survive in a heaving hot ship
more than a couple of weeks) was in fact, rather too strong for thirst
quenching (a happy sailor is one thing, depending on a drunk sailor is
quite another)
A keg of fresh water would go brackish and slimey in a couple of weeks.
Beer could take months to go bad.
It is the adoption of beer as the basic beverage onboard ships that enabled
long ocean crossings, since water casks have to be refreshed every couple
of weeks, and even with favorable winds, an Atlantic crossing was 24 days
or so in Drake's day.
"Flemished Beere" was produced by "state" breweries in such prodigious
quantity in Portsmouth and other "navy" towns that the roads in certain
areas were literally lined with casks of beer ready for the Channel fleet.
During the Armada campaign and afterward, the Navy paid a premium
to get this beer to the sailors who were regularly in short supply for want of
sufficient transport. Things got so bad, at some points that the Navy
essentially commandeered almost every fishing vessel on the East Anglian
and Southern coasts capable of ferrying the half tun "pipes" out to the fleet.
An informative discussion of this can be found at the Mary Rose website.
Also Several books on the Armada campaign discuss the resupply woes
that the Channel fleet sufferred.
Check out the following books for more information:
"Founded upon the Seas : A Narrative of Some English Maritime
and Overseas Enterprises During the Period 1550 to 1616" by
Walter Oakeshott
"Spain's Men of the Sea : Daily Life on the Indies Fleets in the
Sixteenth Century" by Pablo E. Perez-Mallaina,
Carla Rahn Phillips, Translator
"The Voyages and works of John Davis, the navigator" by
A.H. Markham
"Discovery : Exploration through the Centuries" by Eric Flaum
"The Adventure of Sail" by Captain Donald Macintyre, RN
On side a note: "beere" was not necessarily hopped in period, and the
term Flemished or flemish beer was used to denote beer made in the
hopped fashion, since the English at first imported their navy beer from
the flemings, because of the qualities of the hops that the flemish used.
They did not start making it themselves until it was clear that the
imports were falling far short of what was needed by the fleet.
At that time several admirals got the state to finance the construction
of or subsidize a number of brewies. This was achieved in very short
order and the way the Navy started turning out ships, biscuit, and beer,
going from a few ships a year to full production in only a couple of
years was the "Manhattan Project" of the time.
It was not till after period that the term "beer" became synonymous with
the use of hops.
Brandu
Date: 10 Oct 2000 13:11:19 -0000
From: "Gunnora Hallakarva" <gunnora at realtime.net>
Subject: FWD Viking Banner-Vanes from Norsefolk
While looking for something else entirely I found another interesting
source discussing the gilded weathervane/prow-ornaments:
Martin Blindheim. "The Gilded Vikingship Vanes: Their Use and
Technique" in: R.T. Farrell, ed. The Vikings. London: Phillimore.
1982. ISBN 0850334365. pp. 116-127.
Blindheim has several other "graffiti" type drawings ca. 1150-1250
which are similar to the Bryggen stick, showing this type of vane on
the prow and in one instance the mast of various Viking-type ships as
follows:
Graffiti from Urnes Stave Church at Sogn, Norway
Graffito on inner wall of Borgund Stave Church, Sogn, Norway
Graffiti on inner wall of Kaupanger Stave Church, Sogn, Norway
Graffito on outer wall of Reinli Stave Church, Oppland, Norway
He differentiates between two types of vane: veðrviti, or prow-
ornaments, and flaug, which were affixed at the top of the mast.
Apparently Br¿gger had proposed that the Heggen vane had been used
as
a merki ("standard") and carried about atop a staff, similar to the
banners on the Bayeaux Tapestry, but Blindheim disagrees.
Apparently there's a good bit of saga evidence for these vanes
appearing on ships: "It appears that such vanes were easily taken
down and put up again, and that they were used on warships as signs
of importance. They could be seen shining in the sun at some
considerable distance, and people would infer from the shining that
warships were approaching."
Haakons saga Haakonssons is one of the sagas cited, where Haakon is
launching a sea-attack against the Ribbungs, using deceit by sending
the small ships first and warships under sail next to make the enemy
think that these were cargo ships, which apparently were rarely
rowed. Only when the Ribbungs rowed out and were very close did they
see the gilded vanes and so discover that these were warships by the
glittering of the gilded vanes (veðrvitar glitudu ved ‡
storskipunum
er s—len skein ‡).
Other saga mentions include:
The ship which brought Harald Hardrada home had vanes that looked
like red gold (veðrvitar varu sv‡ at sj‡ sem rautt gull
v¾ri).
Sigurd Slembe's saga, which refers to the glitter of the golden vane
(skok veðrvita ’ v‡tum byr gulli gla¾stan of gramskipi).
In discussing the physical condition of the surviving vanes,
Blindheim notes that the holes which occur along the curved bottom
edge were almost certainly used for some sort of dangling ornament,
but that the wear on the holes is too great for cloth or tassels or
ribbon to have caused it -- he thinks that there were originally
metal rings in these holes, from which fabric streamers or even
gilded metal oblongs were dependent.
Another interesting note is that the surviving vanes have been
altered to allow them to be used on the various churches where they
were preserved. In some cases the angles of the design have been
altered, others the overall vane trimmed down and the original edge
trimming set in, etc. Apparently vanes which were originally in use
on ship-prows have an upper corner angle of about 110 degrees
(veðrvitar), while those designed to fly from a mast or as actual
weathervanes on a building have a corner angle of 90 degrees (flaug).
Another interesting note is that Blindheim says that all the extant
vanes are gilded copper, but that several sources will list some as
brass. The animal ornaments that stand on top of the vane at the
outer end are also largely copper with various other metals, but
always of a slightly different composition from the vane. The method
used in gilding the vanes is apparently identical to the techniques
in Book III of Theophilus' De Diversis Artibus (flame-gilding).
Blindheim breaks the composition down as follows:
S¿derala vane 95% copper, 1 mm gilding, lion on top 80% copper, 20%
zinc
Heggen vane 90% copper, lion on top 70% copper, 20% zinc, 5% lead, 5%
other
KŠllunge vane 90-95% copper, lion on top 90-95% copper
Tingelstad vane 97% copper, 2-3 mm gilding, dragon on top also 97%
copper
Lolland vane ?, horse on top 90% copper, 1-5% iron, zinc, tin,
silver, etc.
Very detailed dimensions and weights are given for the various
structural elements of each vane, and notes on how each element is
constructed are listed -- this would be very nice for craftsmen
reconstructing these who are looking for specific documentation on
materials and methods.
And, linking nicely with the thread on ship-law, Blindheim also
briefly discusses a bit of the law associated with war-fleets, which
I'll quote:
"In Norway the laws for the 'leidang', the fleet of warships, said
that the leidang-obligations went as far inland as the salmon was
able to swim up river. In some places that was quite a long way.
The leidang system meant that in case of war a district had to muster
a fixed number of ships with equipment and with men. In times of
peace the ships had to be put away in common boat-sheds and sails and
other objects had to be kept in special central places. In the
Middle Ages these places were the churches."
This leads me to think that the folks looking for ship-law should
look at the leidang or leding regulations, as this might give you
some ideas about law aboard ships.
::GUNNORA::
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:53:55 -0500
From: rmhowe <MMagnusM at bellsouth.net>
To: "- Stephan's Florilegium" <stefan at texas.net>,
- Authenticity List <authenticity at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Book stamps / boat models / Pilgrim Ampullae from Dublin
Wallace, Patrick F.(Ed.): Miscellanea 1: Medieval Dublin Excavations
1962-81, National Museum of Ireland, 48pp PB Royal Irish
Academy, Dublin, 1988 PB ISBN 0901714712, HB ISBN 0901714712.
$13.49 in paperback from Amazon.com.
The first section is a Bibliography of Dublin 840-1300
listing all articles. About 5 pages of solid bibliography
by Patrick Wallace.
The second section is A 'Winchester-style' Bronze Mount
by Andrew Halpin. This depicts four differnt mounts. Similar
ones are thought to possibly have been sword pommels. This
one is highly carved in an animalistic romanesque style and
is thought to have been a ceremonial staff end of some type.
(Although to me it looks like the animals would have been
upside down in context). 10 C. English Import. Two inches
wide by about 5/8" thick. Shown actual size in three
orthographic drawings, and one photo.
The third section if Ship Graffiti and Models by Arne-Emil
Christianson. This one looks like fun, it has a number of
graffiti of early ships including a horned dragon head ship
and some obvious toys and models. Both carved models and real
boats are illustrated. Also a Birka coin and a wooden gaming
piece from High Street which is rather like a checker piece.
25 illus. Bibliography.
The fourth section is Romanesque bookbinding fragments
by Joseph McDonnell and has a number of book stamp styles
illustrated. Not the actual punches but the impressions of
them. This kind of illustration is fairly rare. The leather
bits and the six different stamp designs used are depicted.
A palmette, a repeating palmette, a lobe shaped dragon, a dove
without a nimbus enclosed in a palmette frame, an Ostrich?,
and a boar.
The last section if Pilgrim Souvenirs by Brian Spencer
which consists of quite a number of differently shaped
Ampullae. Ten illustrations and about 40 citations in the
bibliography.
Magnus Malleus, OL, Atlantia, GDH / R.M.Howe
..........
***Not to be forewarded to SCA-Universitas or any open Newsgroups,
especially the Rialto. Closed email lists of the SCA or reenactor
community are fine.
From: "Raymond C. Parks" <rcparks at rt66.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Nautical reference material
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:47:10 -0700
Organization: Rt66.COM, New Mexico's #1 ISP
If you are not interested in period things nautical, skip this message
and feel good.
For those of you who are CostCo (formerly Price Club) members, they
seem to have an interesting series of books available. The series is
probably available elsewhere, but that's where I found them. The series
is "Conway's History of the Ship". The book I picked up is
_Cogs,_Caravels,_and_Galleons_, subtitled "The Sailing Ship 1000-1650".
There seems to be one about Viking ships, also. I didn't get around to
reading until this week, but it contains quite scholarly articles with
frequent references to archeological finds. The articles are not afraid
to admit what is not known - e.g. the article on cogs notes that they
were supplemented and replace by "hulks" of which little is known. The
articles on cogs and earlier ships pay particular attention to the
Hanseatic League. For those of you with a nautical bent, this could be
invaluable.
Goetz Liedtke
Ray Parks
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 08:32:45 -0700
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Need Reference info
Brighid ni Chiarain wrote:
>TITLE: Spanish diet in the Atlantic crossing, the 1570s.
>AUTHORS: Super JC
>HOLDING STATUS: THIS ITEM IS NOT IN THE NLM COLLECTION.
>SOURCE: Terr Incogn. 1984;16:57-70.
In case some folks don't understand the reference, "Spanish diet..."
is an article in a magazine, Terra Incognita, Issue 16, published
1984, on pages 57 to 70.
Anahita
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 11:13:29 -0400
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] pickled lemons
Here are some additional and interesting articles
and books that deal with diet in the English navy,
and scurvy along with its prevention.
See the Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery, 1990.
Fasting and Feasting, ed. Harlan Walker, London: Prospect Books, 1990.
Powers, Jo Marie. "L'Ordre de Bon Temps: Good Cheer as the Answer"
pp.164-172. --discusses Samuel de Champlain's efforts to survive
the winter of 1606-1607 in New France, knowing that as in the
previous two winters many would of scurvy during the bitter cold.
Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery, 1989.
Staple Foods, ed. Harlan Walker, London: Prospect Books, 1990.
Black, Maggie. "Survival Kit (16th Century Seaman's Fare)"
pp.57-60. --includes the 1588 daily issue of food per sailor.
Thick, Malcolm. "Sir Hugh Plat's Promotion of Pasta as a Victual
for Seamen." Petits Propos Culinaires #40 [1992], pp.43-50.
--Yes, that Sir Hugh Plat who wrote Delightes for Ladies, spent
a great deal of time between 1589 and 1607 promoting a better
diet for seamen. He especially promoted the use of dried macaroni.
Perry, Charles. "Preserved Lemons." Petits Propos Culinaires #50
[1995], pp.22-24. --discusses the literature of preserving lemons
and the odd fact that there is little scientific literature on what
is happening when these fruits are preserved.
Shepard, Sue. Pickled, Potted, and Canned. How the Art and Science
of Food Preserving Changed the World. NY: Simon and Schuster, 2000.
--contains a chapter "Navy Blues" on the provisioning of ships,
including a concise account of James Lancaster's efforts in 1600
to avoid scurvy on trips to the East Indies. Lancaster took with
him "bottles of lemon juice, of which he gave three spoonfuls every
morning to each man." (p.209)
Giles Milton. Nathaniel's Nutmeg, NY: Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 1999,
also describes in detail James Lancaster's voyages in chapters entitled
"Wonderfully Unwholesome Climes" and "Music and Dancing Damsels."
See also Carpenter, Kenneth J. The History of Scurvy and Vitamin C.
Cambridge: C.U.P., 1986.
Johnna Holloway
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 11:59:40 -0400
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Spanish seafaring food
I was browsing through LIBRO (Library of Iberian Resources Online) at
http://libro.uca.edu and I came across an interesting tidbit. The following is
from _Consulate of the Sea and Related Documents_, which is a 15th
century compilation of laws, regulations, and customs governing merchant
shipping.
http://libro.uca.edu/consulate/index.htm
The section below deals with food for sailors:
145-Food Which Must Be Provided for the Sailors by the Patron
To continue: Every patron of a vessel or a boat which has a deck must
provide the following food for the whole crew: Meat three times per
week. This means on Sunday, Tuesday, and on Thursday. On the other
days of the week he shall provide soup for them, in addition to the bread
given the crew each evening. Also three times per week, in the morning
and in the evening he shall provide them with wine. To supplement the
bread ration they should be given cheese or onions or sardines or other
kind of fish.
In addition, the master of a vessel is required to issue rations of wine, if it
will not cost him more than three and one-half besants. If he procures
raisins or even figs, he should make wine; if he should not be able to get
either figs or raisins or if they cost more than thirty milliares per thousand
rolls, the master will not be required to issue wine rations.
Furthermore, the patron shall double the rations of the crew on all official
holy days. Finally, he shall employ proper personnel to prepare the food
for the crew.
-----------------------
Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
rcmann4 at earthlink.net
From: "sscott at datuma.com" <sscott at datuma.com>
Date: Wed Jun 4, 2003 7:39:20 AM US/Central
To: bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] Dragonships compared to the Mary Rose
> Please pardon my ignorance, I have been reading these missives
> comparing the Mary Rose to a viking longship... What, pray, is the
> Mary Rose? Historically or in literature?
>
> Thanks for the entertainment...and, in advance, the enlightenment...
> ;->
>
> Lady Dior
The Mary Rose was one of Henry VIII's major warships. It was built
around 1510 and sank in 1545. It was raised in 1982 and has provided
an enormous amount of info and artifacts about early 16th century
life. There is a lot of information online, such as
www.maryrose.org, and there have been various books written about the
ship and its recovery.
Gwenneth
From: clevin at ripco.com (Craig Levin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Ship-related
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:41:32 +0000 (UTC)
Athelinda <nequila at imadrunk.com> wrote:
>Pedro and others,
> I am specifically looking for an idea of the positions of crew on a
>1560-1580 caravel and a brief description of what each does. The
>floriligeum has much wonderful seafaring info, but not that! I know
>absolutely nothing to begin with.
Okay. Understand that, by and large, a caravel is going to have a
fairly small crew for the time-it was originally a coastal
trading vessel, built as much for ease of handling as much as
anything else, which made it the type of choice to go nosing
around foreign shores.
From the bottom up, according to Parry's _Age of Reconnaissance_
(currently available from Amazon, so go forth and grab!):
ship's boys - you have to start someplace, and this is it. When a
cook isn't available, and on most caravels he wasn't (the Nin~a
and Pinta didn't have one, though the Santa Maria, a carrack,
did), they cook, and in most situations they're basically
apprentices, literally learning their lines.
seamen - on a caravel, you normally didn't have the deep
breakdown of men into specific types of seaman; when you've got
about two dozen guys to run an ocean-going vessel, everyone's got
to be able to do a lot of different tasks.
craftsmen - there are some tasks, however, that do take time to
learn. Most ships' rosters listed carpenters, caulkers (who make
the stuff that gets stuffed between the hull strakes, and do the
stuffing), and coopers (it was simply easier to have somebody
already on staff who could make barrels-no outsourcing for these
guys!). Interestingly enough, Parry believes that the typical
mariner knew enough about making sails to make a post just of
sailmaker needless. Some rosters list a cook.
petty officers - boatswain/bosun, who takes care of the ship's
rigging and other gear; if this wasn't complicated enough, he's
also the guy who often gets tagged with teaching the boys. Along
with him, there's the steward, who covers the consumables. He
works fairly closely with the cooper.
pilot and master - at this point in time, the master may still be
the ship's owner, but he's most certainly the guy on board in
charge, owner or not. Both he and the pilot are going to command
watches, switching on and off, and both of them will know the art
of piloting. Piloting is also called coastwise navigation, as
opposed to celestial navigation, because the pilot and the master
are taking their bearings from landmarks (often tall cliffs and
mountains, so you're not really hugging the coast, but hanging
off just close enough to make them out) and soundings, when they
aren't using "dead reckoning" (deducing their position from their
compass heading and speed, a dicey procedure because there really
isn't such a thing as a reliable clock one can use at sea until
the 1700's). Some masters and pilots would have known how to find
their latitude using Polaris (which isn't precisely above the
North Pole, then or now, so just getting Polaris' angle above the
horizon isn't enough) or a sun shot at noon, when the sun is due
south, which is simple-as long as you're swift with an abacus and
have the formulae and tables handy. Voyages of exploration might
also have a gentleman on board as a captain; intelligent ones
listened to those dreadful middle class types, the pilot and the
master, dullards often ended up playing star roles in the
Historia Tragico-Maritima (also for sale!).
Please feel free to ask more questions. Were it not for my
obligations, I could go on about this all day. <grin>
Pedro
--
http://pages.ripco.net/~clevin/index.html
clevin at ripco.com
Craig Levin Librarians Rule: Oook!
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:02:23 -0500
From: "David J. Hughes" <davidjhughes.tx at netzero.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Ship-related
Athelinda wrote:
> Ok, more questions then. What is a quartermaster?
Date: 15th century
1 : a petty officer who attends to a ship's helm, binnacle, and signals
master of marines?
OOP commander of the marine contingent of a ship, more commonly on
military vessel a Sergeant, Lieutenant or Major ( A major may hold the
RANK of captain, but is never called such aboard ship. There is only
ONE captain on a ship, even if his actual rank is midshipman)
Date: 1669
2 : one of a class of soldiers serving on shipboard or in close
association with a naval force;
> Their roles in history and SCA?
>
> Were there chaplains? Surgeons?
> -Athelinda
On larger ships, possibly, although some services considered having a
chaplain aboard bad luck. On British ships, particularly after Henry
the VIII split from the RCC, the captain would read divine services.
In addition, on larger military vessels, the chaplains primary duty
would often be the education of the ship boys and "young gentlemen"
(Midshipmen) in reading, writing, etc.
Note that a physician or Doctor of Medicine held higher qualifications
than a Surgeon, whose medical skills rarely exceeded passing out
nostrum medicines and performing radical amputations. A modern US Navy
combat medic would have been considered a Godsend on most period ships.
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 21:46:16 -0500
From: "David J. Hughes" <davidjhughes.tx at netzero.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Ship-related
Athelinda wrote:
> Pedro and others,
> I am specifically looking for an idea of the positions of crew on a
> 1560-1580 caravel and a brief description of what each does. The
> floriligeum has much wonderful seafaring info, but not that! I know
> absolutely nothing to begin with.
> Thanks,
> Athelinda
Let's look at a merchant ship (A military ship will have many more
officers and crew)
Jobs that have to be done
Officers
Master- navigator, sailing master
Handles the ship. Determines course, when to change course, number
and positions of sails, adjusting ballast or cargo to adjust ship's
trim. Makes or orders sailing entries into the ship's log.
Captain person responsible for EVERYTHING on the ship, in overall
command. Determines ratings of crew, oversees discipline, condition
of crew, stores, food, lines, lines, sails, spars, yards, mast,
cables, rigging, etc. May delegate any or all of these jobs, but is
ultimately responsible. Responsible for the ship's log.
Optional Owner guy who actually owns the ship, deals with all the
economic factors. If not the owner, the Purser handles these matters.
Purser responsible for all ships stores (food, spare sails and rope,
water supplies, fire wood, crew comforts like spirits, wine, beer,
cloth, sewing supplies for clothing and sails, spare yards and spars,
etc.)
One person may hold any or all of the above positions.
Masters mate trained to do all the master's duties, Master's
assistant. May be more than one aboard. Sails the ship when Master
not on deck.
Petty officers
Bosun Boatswain a petty officer having charge of hull maintenance
and related work. Often also acts as foreman for coordinating the
efforts of the hands
Optional coxswain a sailor who has charge of a ship's small boat(s)
and its crew and who usually steers
Hands Seamen of various ratings, not petty officers.
Helmsman qualified to handle the wheel, steer a course as directed,
read the compass, note wind shifts and sea conditions to assist the
master.
Linesman casts the log to determine ship's speed through the water,
determines water depth in shallow areas.
Topman/men Sailor skilled in working the sails from the mast and
yards. Sets, shortens , reefs and furls sails, replaces sails as needed.
Idlers Sailors not qualified to work as topmen. Handle lines on deck
as ordered, hauls the lines to raise, lower, or adjust sails, man
pumps, capstan (Main winch for raising anchor or other heavy lifting),
general ship maintenance, such as swapping and holystoning the decks.
Loblolly boy ship's medic.
Cook in charge of the galley, particularly the stove. May not
actually cook, but merely issues the supplies so the crew can cook
their own food, or may cook.
Slushy Cook's assistant
Ranking of seamen (Later period for the names, but the general concept
applies)
Seaman 1st class Professional seaman, probably more than 5 years
service, can do almost any job aboard that has to do with sails,
lines, rigging, masts, yards, spars or hull.
Able bodied seamen can "reef, splice and steer" skilled sailor,
rarely has lees than 2 years service.
Seaman can place his hand on any line on the ship, in the dark, in
the middle of a raging storm
Landsman beginner. Does NOTHING concerning the handling of the ship
without supervision.
Ship's boy a youngster, fetches and carries, runs messages, etc.
A merchant caravel could have as few as twenty personnel, total, so
many of these jobs could be done by a single person, as needed.
In addition, there could be Surgeon, Carpenter, Gunner and/or
Gunner's Mate, Blacksmith, midshipman (ship's boy being trained as a
master's mate), Clerk (to handle paperwork), Cargomaster, Supercargo
(an officer of indeterminate duties)
David Gallowglass
From: clevin at ripco.com (Craig Levin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Ship-related
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:55:20 +0000 (UTC)
Athelinda <nequila at imadrunk.com> wrote:
>Ok, more questions then. What is a quartermaster? master of marines?
Depending on where you go, a quartermaster's usually in charge of
supplies. "Master of Marines" is a new one. On some larger
vessels, a master at arms might have been on the roster as the
person who would have that kind of responsibility, but most
caravels, as I mentioned before, were merchantmen, and, even when
on a commission to explore, wouldn't have been heavily armed.
Portuguese East Indiamen (that is, the ships on the "carreira da
India" to and from the homeland and the Orient) often carried
soldiers who were being sent from one fort to another-just
passengers, typically.
For the most part, the Portuguese had the upper hand in the
Indian and Pacific Oceans in terms of warship technology: the
cannon-armed roundship-the ancestor to every man-of-war until the
Monitor and the Merrimac. Unlike the galley, which has a
contingent of marines for its tactics of ram-and-board, the can-
non-armed roundship fights best by avoiding close contact and
bashing its opponents with gunfire. In the event that it does get
boarded, the boarding party normally ends up in the waist (the
middle of the ship), the defenders shoot at them from the
forecastle and the quarterdeck, and the boarding party becomes
fish food.
>Their roles in history and SCA?
While lots of folks have nautically inclined personae (I did, for
a very long time), and there have been branches on some USN
vessels, there is no Known World Navy. <grin>
As for naval history-it's a massive subject even when skimmed. I
suggest trying to obtain some of the books mentioned in the
Florilegium section via ILL.
>Were there chaplains? Surgeons?
Portuguese and Spanish vessels sometimes had chaplains, as
opposed to clergymen en route somewhere who were simply
fulfilling their vows. Most likely, they'd have been attached to
the gentleman in charge, rather than being like modern chaplains,
who are on their country's payroll.
Surgeons? Sometimes. Personally, if I had a choice of being
treated by a Renaissance physician, who would've diagnosed me
using ancient Greek and Roman texts and had an apothecary dose me
with some dubious herbal crud (or worse, if he accepted the new
science of Paracelsus, with his use of mercury compounds!) and
being treated by a surgeon, who'd have received his training in a
hands-on manner, with quite a bit of empirical knowledge (that
is, he knows which techniques and approaches work, but not why),
I might well decide that my fortune stood higher with the
surgeon. Mind you, I might just avoid them both and hole up with
some chicken soup and bedrest. <grin>
Pedro
--
http://pages.ripco.net/~clevin/index.html
clevin at ripco.com
Craig Levin Librarians Rule: Oook!
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:56:19 -0500
From: "David J. Hughes" <davidjhughes.tx at netzero.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Ship-related
Athelinda wrote:
> So far, that's them.
> -Athelinda
>
>>Define the total complement (How many people people total, not
>>counting passengers) and I could set up starboard and port watches,
>>deck officers, supplementaries needed.
Is that because you have specific individuals volunteering to be on
your hypothetical ship.
On an actual period ship, your listed complement won't get out of harbor.
Officers:
Captain
First Mate
Master of Marines (Master at Arms)
Nobody to be master of. No troops listed.
Quartermaster
Possibly officer, possibly crew
Crew:
Navigator
always an officer
Chaplain
Honorary Officer
Cook
Surgeon
Always an officer (warranted by the Surgeons Board, rather than
commissioned by the Crown, in the British Navy.)
Midshipman
Neither fish nor fowl, between grass and hay. Officer trainee,
gives orders to the crew as if an officer, but neither officer nor crew
Let's look at one job, leaving harbor.
Three masted caravel, in harbor, anchored with standard two anchors,
with 200 meters of cable on each anchor.
Man the capstan, minimum four, more likely eight sailors. Possibly a
fiddler or other beat keeper to keep them coordinated.
Quartermaster over sees laying the cable in the cable hold, 4 ships
boys (minimum) nipping the cable to keep it running from the lower
capstan to the cable hold, four to six sailors laying the cable in the
cable hold. One or two men to "cat" the anchor (keep it from banging
against the hull.)
That's 13 to 23 men to raise the first anchor. When the second anchor
weighs (comes of the ocean bottom), you'll want the ship to be
making headway so as to be under control.
At least one helmsman, 4 topmen to loose the foretopsail, six waisters
(idlers) to handle lines, probably a bosun to oversee, although the
Masters mate could do that.
That's another 11 crew needed during the 2 to 5 minutes between the
time the anchor weighs and the anchor watch is relieved.
Call it 24 sailors needed to handle the ship, divided 8 expert, 8
experienced, 8 trainees. If any novices (landsmen), they don't count
for much, say 4 novices would equal 1 experienced sailor in usefulness.
One sail now set, ship under minimal control, the crew at the capstan
and cable tier can now enter the waist and rigging to set other sails
as needed, secure the anchors, capstan, cables, and other tasks.
For comparison, in 1492, Columbus sailed with the Nina, a two master
lanteen rigged caravel, the Pinta, a three masted square and lanteen
rigged caravel, and the Santa Maria, a three masted nao.
Between them, they had a complement of 104 virtually all experts or
experienced, probably roughly 20, 35, 50, based on the sizes and
handling requirements of each.
Note that when the Santa Maria ran aground and was wrecked (Dec 25,
1492), the Pinta having previously sailed separately, the Nina was
unable to accommodate 40 of the Santa Maria's crew, who were left to
build a fort, Navidad, on Hispaniola.
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 22:27:44 -0500
From: "Jeff Gedney" <gedney1 at iconn.net>
Subject: Lemons as antiscorbutics
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
John Smith in his 1626 book on ships and sailing, A Sea Grammar, has the following line in his instructions regarding the proper victualling of a ship for a voyage to sea:
"A Commander at Sea should doe well to thinke the contrary, and provide for himselfe and company in like manner; also seriously to consider what will bee his charge to furnish himselfe at Sea with bedding, linnen, armes, and apparrell, how to keepe his table aboord, and hi expences on shore, and provide his petty Tally, which is a competent proportion according to your number of these particulars following.
Fine wheat flower close and well packed, Rice, Currands, Sugar, Prunes, Cynamon, Ginger, Pepper, Cloves, greene inger, Oyle, Butter, Holland cheese, or old Cheese, Wine vineger, Canarie sacke, Aqua vit¾, the best Wines, the best waters, the juyce of Limons for the scurvy, white Bisket, Oatmeale, gammons of Bacon, dried Neats tongues, Beefe packed up in vineger,Legs of Mutton minced and stewed, and close packed up, with tried sewet or butter in earthen pots. "
In 1610 the Governor of Jamestown Lord la Ware took scurvy while travelling to Jamestown, and he was forced for his health to repair to "the western isles" by which I think he means the Bahamas:"In these extremities I resolved to consult with my friends, who finding nature spent in me, and my body almost consumed, my paines likewise daily increasing, gave me advice to preferre a hopefull recoverie, bfore an assured ruine, which must necessarily have ensued, had I lived but twentie daies longer in Virginia, wanting at that instant both food and Physicke, fit to remedie such extraordinary diseases; wherefore I shipped my selfe with Doctor Bohun and aptaine Argall, for Mevis in the West Indies, but being crossed with Southerly winds, I was forced to shape my course for the Westerne Iles, where I found helpe for my health, and my sicknesse asswaged, by the meanes of fresh dyet, especially Oranges nd Limons, and undoubted remedie for that disease: then I intended to have returned backe againe to Virginia, but I was advised not to hazard my selfe, before I had perfectly recovered my strength: so I came for England; in which accident, I doubt notbut men of judgement will imagine, there would more prejudice have happened by my death there, than I hope can doe by my returne."
So as far as lemons, and oranges, go, here appears to have been a plantations in the American tropics long established, by this time and at least a rudimentary awareness of the efficacy of citrus as an antiscorbutic.
Capt Elias
-Renaissance Geek of the Cyber Seas
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:23:02 -0500
From: "Jeff Gedney" <gedney1 at iconn.net>
Subject: Citrus, Scurvy and The Royal Navy
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Venturing companies (and government "Navies" in time of war) had to pay restitution and/or pensions to widows and orphans of crewmen lost in legitimate action or accident, according to the various laws such as the Law of Oleron.
They did not have to pay for criminals killed for offense, deserters, mutineers, and victims of crew to crew violent crime aboard ship.
They DID have to pay for the hospitalization or upkeep of men who were disabled and had to be placed in the care of whatever hospital facilities are nearest.
How much these laws were complied with on a regular basis is unknown, but it is pretty clear that care and maintenance of sick men ashore and afloat was a significant expense.
It is also clear that these expenses were often only partially paid and often only after a great deal of intercession and legal challenge. Naturally the worst sufferers were men who were not in the care of a "good" captain who believed that he was feudally responsible for those in his charge. Many captains and some admirals were beggared and some totally ruined in the days after the Armada, as the practice was that the crewmen had to be paid as soon as they set foot on land, and the promised payment to the ships owners and captains for their service was very slow in coming from the Admiralty. Consequently the men were forced to remain on board for several months, *in harbor*, eating rotten food and drinking foul water and sour beer. There was an epidemic through the fleet, and many captains were forced to set men ashore and make up their care and pay out of their personal funds.
Good book on the subject:
"Medicine and the Navy 1200-1900" by JJ Keevil (2 vols)
Also:
Enterprise of England the Spanish Armada
by Roger Whiting
The enterprise of England; an account of her emergence as an oceanic power.
by Woodrooffe, Thomas
Capt Elias
-Renaissance Geek of the Cyber Seas
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 11:32:27 -0400
From: "Jeff Gedney" <gedney1 at iconn.net>
Subject: RE: sour cabbage - German recipe
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> I was told once and never got docs on it. That an
> English captain in the late 1500s, mentions an
> observation that the Germanic nations' sailors did
> not seem to suffer like English sailors of scurvy.
> This was attributed to the consumption of pickled
> cabbage. In order to get his crew to eat the pickled
> cabbage, he had a barrel brought on board and had it
> labeled for officers only.
Sounds up my alley...
I'll see what I can find...
But it sounds apocryphal. Ship's stores were generally closely watched and apportioned out by stewards. Stuff listed for the captain's table would not go into the general "messe" in the way described. The English would eat almost anything to relieve their boredom of the beer biscuit and salt cod/salt beef diet...including eskimo dog, penguin, manatee, dolphin, corn, grass, whatever the can catch or gather that might be conceivably or even remotely edible.
I think if they were put ashore in Germany, after months of eating weevily biscuit, maggoty salt beef and cod, drinking scummy water, and smelling the gasses that issued from the festering bilges every night as they try to sleep, that a fresh crock of sauerkraut in a dry German inn would seem like cheese and wine on a bed of rose petals.
I seriously doubt that they would have to be coaxed into eating any sort of fresh food.
On scurvy:
I know that in the Elizabethan period the cause and cure of scurvy was still widely unknown.
A major complication being that the modern concept of Scurvy as a vitamin C deficiency rarely was experienced. The period Scurvy diagnosis usually included descriptions of symptoms associated with other vitamin deficiencies, such as "wet" beriberi (A vitamin B1 deficiency usually associated with the high alcohol content of the sailor's diet), and pellagra. There were lots of theories as to causation, yes, but the notion of a purely dietary deficiency causing the condition was not among them. The most usual period theory being that the very atmosphere of the ocean was bad for you, the very ocean was inimical to non ocean based life. This was commonly called "malaria"(bad air "mal+aria").
Once you got back on the wholesome land, the very vapors of the good earth cured you. It was pretty well established hat some foods and medicines would help to deter the condition at sea, but why they worked was anyone's guess, ad the exact foods and medicines recommended varied from pace to place and era to era.
For example, it was known that some fruits deterred scurvy, but it was thought that the acidic nature of the foods was the curative agency, so in his 1565 voyage, Sir John Hawkins shipped, and distributed, his favorite remedy for scurvy, which was a mixture of sulfuric acid, sugar and water. (and you thought Coke was bad for the teeth!)
Source:
Keevil, J. J., "Medicine and the Navy: 1200-1900: Vol 1
1200-1649", E. & S. Livingstone, Edinburgh, 1957
Capt Elias
Dragonship Haven, East
(Stratford, CT, USA)
Apprentice in the House of Silverwing
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 22:41:05 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] 100 Mile Feast
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
On Sep 20, 2006, at 9:31 PM, Daniel Phelps wrote:
> For what it is worth in furtherance of this discussion I was just
> reading Cheyney's "A History of England, From the Defeat of the
> Armada to the Death of Elizabeth" Vol. 1. In the chapter titled
> "The Seizure of Contraband" it is cited that on the 27th of July
> (1588) the council issued from the court at Nonesuch a formal
> "order and decree" for the forfeiture of goods seized on certain
> neutral German ships bound for Spain. Under "Victual" are listed
> "Bacon, Corne, Wheate, Barley, Meale, Beanes, Peason and such
> lyke." Such would suggest to me some of the more common bulk
> commodities in trade which were shipped long distances by sea in
> the last quarter of the 16th century. If I might inquire:
> Would Peason be peas?
Extremely likely. Middle English texts refer to "peyson"
> What is the consensus regarding what grain is ground for "Meale"
> in this reference?
Could be almost anything. Actually, I'm more interested in what the
"corne" was, if not barley or wheat. Bear in mind, though, that this
is listed as "Victual", and not as cargo. IOW, strictly speaking, not
necessarily direct evidence of import or export, and perhaps merely
that sailors had to eat.
It could probably be argued either way...
Adamantius
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 06:15:38 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] 100 Mile Feast
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Peason is the plural of pease and is as you surmise, peas in modern
English.
Meal is any ground grain other than wheat, which is flour. The usage is
imprecise, so it is impossible to determine the actual grain unless
mentioned.
The German ships metioned are very probably from the Hanse (Hanseatic
League) which formally began in 1241 and held its last meeting in 1669. The
Hanse controlled much of the trade in Northern Europe from the Baltic to
Spain and all points in between.
Bear
> For what it is worth in furtherance of this discussion I was just reading
> Cheyney's "A History of England, From the Defeat of the Armada to the
> Death of Elizabeth" Vol. 1. In the chapter titled "The Seizure of
> Contraband" it is cited that on the 27th of July (1588) the council issued
> from the court at Nonesuch a formal "order and decree" for the forfeiture
> of goods seized on certain neutral German ships bound for Spain. Under
> "Victual" are listed "Bacon, Corne, Wheate, Barley, Meale, Beanes, Peason
> and such lyke." Such would suggest to me some of the more common bulk
> commodities in trade which were shipped long distances by sea in the last
> quarter of the 16th century. If I might inquire:
> Would Peason be peas?
> What is the consensus regarding what grain is ground for "Meale" in
> this reference?
>
> Daniel
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 06:25:32 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] 100 Mile Feast
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Corn, in the British usage, tends to be the major grain grown in a region.
This was very likely rye, if coming out of Northern Europe headed to
Spain.
A synonym for victuals is provisions. I doubt the English would seize a
ship's food, but if the quantities were large, they might consider such as
military provisions. However, 1588 is the year of the Armada and the
is less than two weeks before the English engaged them on August 7, so they
might be trying to stop anything from getting through to Spain.
Bear
> Could be almost anything. Actually, I'm more interested in what the
> "corne" was, if not barley or wheat. Bear in mind, though, that this
> is listed as "Victual", and not as cargo. IOW, strictly speaking, not
> necessarily direct evidence of import or export, and perhaps merely
> that sailors had to eat.
>
> It could probably be argued either way...
>
> Adamantius
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 21:28:08 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Confiscated Goods was 100 Mile Feast
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Was written:
Could be almost anything. Actually, I'm more interested in what the
"corne" was, if not barley or wheat. Bear in mind, though, that this
is listed as "Victual", and not as cargo. IOW, strictly speaking, not
necessarily direct evidence of import or export, and perhaps merely
that sailors had to eat.
My response:
Regards "corne" I'm confused as to what it was. Side note the
listing "Victual" was preceded by "Munityon" which contained as one
would expect callyvers, muskettes, armour, powder, brimston,
saltpeter, bulletts, copper, leade and matche as well as cables,
masts, anchors, cordage, pitch, tarre, tallow and pitchstone. It
also included "Ordynance not belonginge to the shipps, canvas and
Danske Poldavyers". Does anyone recognize what "Danske Poldavyers"
were?
Was further written:
The German ships mentioned are very probably from the Hanse (Hanseatic
League) which formally began in 1241 and held its last meeting in 1669. The
Hanse controlled much of the trade in Northern Europe from the Baltic to
Spain and all points in between.
My response:
The ships were from Konigsberg, Dantzig, Stralsund, Rostock, Stettin,
Wismar, Lubeck, and Hamburg. The court declared that although the
ships and their cargoes might justly be confiscated, the queen
nevertheless intend only to take the munitions of war and victuals
contained in them, leaving the vessels themselves with all their
other commodities to their owners.
Ultimately in response to protests of the Hanse towns. the court
instructed on 8 August of that year that the captured goods be
divided into three categories; contraband goods, "mere merchandise"
not useful for purposes of war and goods belonging to subjects of the
king of Spain. The first and third were confiscated the second was
to be either returned or sold and the result paid to the ship owners.
Was further written:
Corn, in the British usage, tends to be the major grain grown in a region.
This was very likely rye, if coming out of Northern Europe headed to
Spain.
Rye was listed separately but as this list was intended to not just
include what was on the ships but also "...articles which then and in
the future should be subject to confiscation if taken by a neutral
into the dominions of any of England's enemies..." perhaps the term
was included for completeness. Alternatively they might have been
going from one or more of the ships cargo manifests and that was how
such was listed.
Daniel
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 20:53:02 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Confiscated Goods was 100 Mile Feast
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Regards "corne" I'm confused as to what it was. Side note the listing
> "Victual" was preceded by "Munityon" which contained as one would expect
> callyvers, muskettes, armour, powder, brimston, saltpeter, bulletts,
> copper, leade and matche as well as cables, masts, anchors, cordage,
> pitch, tarre, tallow and pitchstone. It also included "Ordynance not
> belonginge to the shipps, canvas and Danske Poldavyers". Does anyone
> recognize what "Danske Poldavyers" were?
Danske Poldavyers is Danish-made sailcloth canvas (probably in bolts) in
this usage. Poldavyers is a coarse canvas used for sacking and
sailcloth.
> Was further written:
>
> Corn, in the British usage, tends to be the major grain grown in a region.
> This was very likely rye, if coming out of Northern Europe headed to
> Spain.
>
> Rye was listed separately but as this list was intended to not just
> include what was on the ships but also "...articles which then and in the
> future should be subject to confiscation if taken by a neutral into the
> dominions of any of England's enemies..." perhaps the term was included
> for completeness. Alternatively they might have been going from one or
> more of the ships cargo manifests and that was how such was listed.
>
> Daniel
It is also possible that it was an indeterminate mix of grains and was
simple called corn rather than maslin, which is more commonly a mix of rye
and wheat.
Bear
<the end>