ships-msg - 1/24/08
Ships and shipbuilding. Sailor's food. Privateers.
NOTE: See also these files: pirates-msg, med-ships-art, ships-bib, nav-inst-msg, boat-building-msg, Seakeeping-p1-art, Seakeeping-p2-art, rope-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
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Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: moonman at camelot.bradley.edu (Craig Levin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mariners, ships and like that
Date: 4 Oct 1993 18:04:09 -0500
Organization: House of the Moss Rose
uf380 at freenet.Victoria.BC.CA (William Underhill) writes:
>To any gentles out there who share this interest,
>From Lord William the Mariner, greetings, salutations and salute
>the brow...
Salutations, fellow waterman!
>Are there any gentles out there who have an interest in naval and
>marine history? By this I mean anything from marine architecture
>to naval battles, from navigation to techniques of sail - in shoret
>(sp) anything connected with ships and sailing? I'd sure like to hear
>from you. Also, does anyone out there (interested or not) know of
>some good sources for research material (don't anyone say "Try your
>local library, please. Despite the fact that we have a naval facility
>just a loud shout down the road from here, you'd think ships never
>existed until the turn of the century, to judge by what they have
>in the local public and university libraries.
>William the Mariner
Sure. I can come up with a few titles & authors right off the
bat. Anything by S. E. Morison, is good. Not only is he a Harvard
historian, he is a dedicated yachtsman, so anything he says about the
voyages of exploration is pretty much verifiable-he's sailed along
their routes, and understands the problems of the sailor. Hakluyt's
PRINCIPALL NAVIGATIONS is one of the best Tudor annals of
exploration. John Hale's another excellent author, as is J. H. Parry.
There's also H. A. Calahan, but you ought to take whatever he says
with a _large_ grain of sea salt. David Howarth's work, SOVEREIGN OF
THE SEAS, covers all of period England, and can be extrapolated to the
rest of period North Europe.
Pedro de Alcazar
--
Craig\The Moonman\Levin Pedro de Alcazar
moonman at camelot.bradley.edu Shire of Dernehealde, Midrealm
From: moonman at camelot.bradley.edu (Craig Levin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mariners, ships and like that
Date: 4 Oct 1993 23:01:41 -0500
Organization: House of the Moss Rose
blaxson at shade.UWaterloo.ca (Brian A.Laxson) writes:
>BTW Does anyone know of the capacity for cargo of late-period wooden
>ships. (I.e. 17 th century Galleons) My "local gathering of books"
>listed several launch weights but no references to the CARGO after crew,
>cannons, food stores etc.
Unfortunately, they did not think in terms of cargo tonnage as
we do. In fact, David Howarth, in his excellent book SOVEREIGNS OF THE
SEA, more or less admits that the the value of a "ton" varied from
time to time. But, if what we can glean from marine archaeology is
correct, by 1415, ships as large as 1400 tons were being constructed.
However, these were very rare-in fact, they were built by Henry V for
his French wars. More typical vessels were in the 80-550 ton range, in
the 1550's.
--
Craig\The Moonman\Levin Pedro de Alcazar
moonman at camelot.bradley.edu Shire of Dernehealde, Midrealm
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mikes at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Michael L. Squires)
Subject: Re: Mariners, ships and like that
Summary: Chaucer and William Bourne
Keywords: navigation
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1993 04:59:53 GMT
>>Are there any gentles out there who have an interest in naval and
>>marine history? By this I mean anything from marine architecture
Chaucer wrote a little book on the use of the astrolabe; I got a copy from
the Folger very cheaply. William Bourne's Regiment for the Sea was
published about 1570 and was a standard text for navigation into the 17th
century. There are also a number of 16th century English manuals on
cannon, but I haven't seen them.
The Hakluyt Society published the Regiment and a number of other books
on similar topics. They should be in a big library.
From: huff at bronze.lcs.mit.EDU (Robert Huff)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Mariners, ships and like that
Date: 5 Oct 1993 17:13:57 -0400
My local library has a really neat (if post-Restoration) book
called _Deane's Doctrine_, a reprint of a manual by Sir John Deane.
It's sort of a price guide/mil-spec/architects meta-manual on how
to build warships. (This is from memory of about two years ago -
permission to quote me is not granted ....)
Diego Mundoz
Carolingia
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (michael squires)
Subject: Re: Mid 11c. Ships
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 16:41:18 GMT
> Greetings. Are there any ship pilots resting here at the bridge? I am
> looking for information regarding merchant ships mainly sailing the English
> channel in the 11c. Any literary refrences would be helpful.
Look up the name "Bass" in your local card catalog. He is an important
underwater archaeologist and has written or co-authored books on shipping.
I have a table-top book which shows photos and reconstructions of ships
from the bronze age to the Vasa which he authored.
--
Michael L. Squires, Ph.D Manager of Instructional Computing, Freshman Office,
Chemistry Department, IU Bloomington, IN 47405 812-855-0852 (o) 81-333-6564 (h)
mikes at indiana.edu, mikes at ucs.indiana.edu, or mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu
From: james at nucleus.cuc.ab.CA (James Prescott)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Mid 11c. Ships
Date: 22 Dec 1993 17:47:52 -0500
Organization: Atomic Data Communications
Try:
Lewis, A.R. and Runyan, T.J.
European Naval and Maritime History, 300-1500
Indiana University Press
1990
ISBN 0-253-20573-5 (pbk.)
-
Thorvald Grimsson/James Prescott (james at nucleus.cuc.ab.ca)
From: dickeney at access2.digex.net (Dick Eney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Drakkar
Date: 3 Feb 1994 21:26:38 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Peter Rose <WISH at uriacc.uri.EDU> wrote:
>Does anyone know what a Drakkar is? I know it's some kind of boat,
>but that's about it.
> --Azelin
It's the rowing galley used as a warship by the Vikings (as contrasted
with the "roundships" used as merchantmen). Means "dragon"; also spelled
drekkar; latter spelling is that used for the newsletter of Storvik in
Atlantia (storvik = "great bay"). The Longship Company of the Markland
Militia has a reconstructed Viking longship, a drakkar, and named
"Fyrdraca" ("dragon of the war-band"). She normally cruises with six
oars manned on a side but can, I believe, accomodate twenty (10 a side)
plus a handful of passengers and everybody's gear. 'Nuf for now?
|-- Vuong Manh (dickeney at access.digex.com) Storvik, Atlantia |
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: clevin at oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Craig Martin Levin)
Subject: Re: Medieval Sea Ports
Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 1994 17:21:57 GMT
Joseph Heck <ccjoe at showme.missouri.edu> wrote:
>What were the common sea ports along the 'irish sea basin'. I would assume
>Dublin would be right up there, as perhaps Barmouth... but does anyone know
>the other ports - specifically in Ireland & Wales? Or, for that matter,
>where I could find out?
The Irish Sea wasn't much of a trade route, as compared to
the Mediterranean or even the Narrow Seas. I think your best
bet is a book by the title of A NAVAL HISTORY OF ENGLAND, by
G. J. Marcus, but even he though he's "comprehensive", says
little about the Irish Sea. Maybe you might try poking
around in the index of the Mariner's Mirror, which is a
great magazine for the study of maritime history.
--
Craig Levin Pedro de Alcazar
Ohio University History Department Shire of Dernehealde
clevin at oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu Midrealm
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ab575 at FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Rebecca Cairns)
Subject: Mary Rose Report
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 18:29:10 GMT
Isabella sends greetings unto all gathered on the bridge this fine day:
As previously promised, here is Betsy True's report on the Mary Rose
lecture given by Ann Stirland last Thursday in Madison, WI. The report
is quite detailed and definitely of interest to readers of the Rialto.
For those who are interested, Betsy also posted an encoded file that
is the picture of "an orate ship" which may or may not be the Mary Rose.
This graphic was encoded using BinHex 4.0 for the MAC. To save bandwidth,
I won't post this file but if anyone is interested, they can drop me a
line and I'll e-mail it to them directly.
If any in this forum also attended the lecture and wish to add their own
report, I'd be interested to see it, as would others, I'm sure.
--------------------------- Begin Included Message ---------------------------
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.scuba-l
From: btrue at MACC.WISC.EDU
Subject: LONG: account of Mary Rose lecture
Date: Mon May 2 19:34:33 1994
An account of Ann Stirlind's lecture on the Wreck of the Mary Rose
The Mary Rose and her Crew: The Manning, Sinking and Raising of King Henry
the VIII's Flagship
Ann Stirland, University College London, Editor, International Journal of
Osteoarchaeology
Ann Stirland's background is as a physical anthropologist. A more complete
description of artifacts is given in the book of similar name by Margory
Rule, published in 1982 by Windward Press.
When Henry VIII came to the throne in 1509 he inherited 5 ships and set
about building a navy with the ambition of reclaiming France. The Mary Rose
was named after a favorite sister, her keel laid in 1511, sank in 1545,
raised and refitted in 1546 to be a warship. Three named personnel were Sir
George Carou, (Admiral?) Thomas Spait, Shipmaster, and Sir Thomas Windam,
Captain. The crew consisted of soldiers (gunners and archers) under the
captain and sailors under the master's direction for a total of 415 people.
In the only existing illustration done of her from 1546, she is shown to be
a 4 masted barque, about 600 tons, with two castles (bow and stern),
refitted with guns. There are several rows of gun ports along sides, the
lower set quite close to the water level. (90 guns were later found.) A
tent of heavy netting is stretched over the tops of the castles, presumed
to be an anti-boarding device and is believed to have trapped many of the
men during sinking (the only 30 survivors believed to have been in the
rigging).
On a calm morning in July, the Mary Rose sailed out of Portsmouth harbor
into the Isle of Wight sound to do battle. She turned to starboard to
present her broadside guns, heeled over and sank very suddenly in 40 fee
of water without a shot fired. She came to rest at 60o angle in soft silt.
An attempt was made by an Italian team to raise her but they only succeeded
in pulling her masts out. Over time the tides and storms filled her in and
eroded away the exposed port side, a shelly sea bed was laid down over all.
Her exact location was lost over time until 1980's when amateur
archeologist located her and this was confirmed by side scanning equipment.
The sound is contaminated by effluent from seaside towns (conger eels
mentioned), low viz and generally unpleasant to dive in. Exploration and
excavation of this site was accelerated using local divers (including
Prince Charles). A decision was made to raise the wreck. The Royal
Engineers made a plan to place a sling around her and raise her into a
cradle on a barge and this was done on live TV (with mishap). She now can
be viewed in a Portsmouth museum undergoing a 20 year conservation plan.
Her significance as a wreck is due to the fact that she is the only Tudor
warship found. Although nothing on this ship has the name "Mary Rose",
archeologists are quite sure of her identity because of the ornateness and
elaborateness of the artifacts and the presence of Henry VIII's insignia on
some guns.
The planking construction shows both clinker style (overlapping) in her
older construction and the newer carvel style (butt joints, end-to-end) in
the parts that were modified when she was made a warship. The carvel
planking allowed them to make gun ports with doors that sealed better when
shut, and generally was easier to seal. Some of these were no more than one
meter from the water level and her sinking is thought to be caused by
shipping water during that starboard turn with the gun ports open.
Of the 90 guns found, one was 12 feet long, some weighed 2 tons, were in a
range of sizes, including a smaller brass swivel gun. Some were quite
ornate and had a Tudor rose insignia. Items found: molds and cannon ball
shot of various sizes, novel anti-personnel missiles of flint shards
wrapped in light wood, carved linstocks (to light the cannons), English
long bows (of yew wood from other parts of world), boxes of arrows in silk
bindings (no flights or points), leather circles with holes (thought to be
arrow spacers or a round of ammo unit.). The bows are remarkable in that
they are of extraordinary draw weight. Modern bows are at 40-60 lbs. Of
these, most were at least 125 lbs, a few at 80 lbs, and three at 180 lbs
(had to be sitting to use). This is beyond most modern athletes ability to
draw, a record mentioned was about 80 lbs. Ann mentioned that all able
bodied men of that age were supposed to be practiced at long bow from the
age of 6 onward.
The site was well preserved by the anaerobic environment of the silt. Other
artifacts included: Ship's bell (brass?), block and tackle (wooden), tools
(wooden, metal), ship's compass (metal), carpenters tools (wooden, metal),
lantern (wooden), dishes (wooden), spoons (wooden), bottles, musical
instruments, pewter plate ware, tankard (or tyg, wooden), bowl (elm) with
personal mark, leather jerkin, leather shoes (with complete feet still in
them as bones), combs (with nit's eggs), pepper mill with pepper corns.
The barber-surgeon's quarters held an oak chest of tools of his trade.
Pottery of various sorts, i.e.. bleeding bowls, knives and saws, urethral
syringe (for treatment of gonorrhea with mercury) general anesthetic
(mallet!), velvet cap (as seen in a Hans Holbein painting of a
barber-surgeon
Human remains study was immensely difficult because of the extent of mixing
of body parts.totally commingled burial. Ann was impressed, though, by the
pristine condition of the bones (muscle insertions very clear) due to the
anaerobic environment of silt. She estimated that she has 92 fairly
complete skeletons and a sample of a total of 179 bodies. There was bony
evidence of battle injuries, occupational stresses and diet. She was
impressed that there were few fractures in the collection of bones: 3 ribs
(they likely wore half armor), 11 skulls (healed depressed fractures), a
nose fracture, a couple of cases of healed child hood rickets and an
avulsion fracture of the tibia (muscular pulling of bone). Bony avulsion
fracture of tibia was similar to same occurring when one jumps down to a
surface moving upward (like a ship deck). One unusual spinal lumbar area
showed overgrowth locking of articular surfaces. She postulated might be
from working in a low ceilinged gun bay (construction showed to be lower
than average height of men) hauling great weight of cannon where the added
stress of having to work slightly bent over would show in the bones. She
felt the shoulders showed stress of lifelong archery practice from her
research into Olympic athletes' injuries: 14.5% unjoined acromium (?) where
3% is normal. One skull had a neat healed impression of a bodkin armor
piercing arrowhead point in the cranium, a possible shot from above and
through an inadequate helmet.
Ann theorizes that these men were probably healthier and larger in stature
than the normal population of the time. They were all males, ages ranging
from late teens to over 40, one 10 year old, possibly a cabin boy.
Because of the hosts of people coming forward spuriously claiming
descendancy and reburial, the caretakers of these remains have chosen to
keep a low profile and to only make them available for anthropologists'
study, so they are not on display.
Betsy True, Medical Illustrator Medical Illustration, Univ. of WI-Madison
H6/134 CSC 608-263-6028 btrue at macc.wisc.edu
---------------------------- End Included Message ----------------------------
In service to the Dream,
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*
* SCA: Isabella Oakwood | *
* Barony of Skraeling Althing, | "I hear and I forget, *
* Ealdormere, Midrealm | I see and I remember, *
* MKA: Rebecca Cairns | I do and I understand." *
* Kanata, Ontario Canada | - Confucius. *
* NET: ab575 at FreeNet.carleton.ca | *
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (michael squires)
Subject: Re: steam engine
Summary: they had the technology
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 15:42:05 GMT
Suze.Hammond at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Suze Hammond) writes:
>As James Burke has so often pointed out in "Connections", many ideas are
>tinkered with off and on for centuries until some much-needed technology
>(such as consistant metalurgy for decent boilers, and the technology to
>make a relatively air tight piston-to-cylinder fit, in this case) catches
>up to the imaginations of humanity.
One of the (main deck?) guns on the Mary Rose, sunk 1545 and raised in 1981,
was a breech-loader made of a single sheet of wrought iron forged around a
mandrel using a large trip-hammer and forge-welded into a cylinder. When
discovered it was thought to be one of the standard iron guns forged out
of bundles of iron rods, but X-rays showed the true structure.
Iron was delivered to the gunworks in "blooms" which had to first be forged
into a sheet or rod before being forged into a cannon. Later in the century
the English figured out how to cast iron into large cannons with a fairly
small risk of explosion. The casting process required the bore be drilled
out after casting. Muzzle-loaders replaced breech-loaders as gunpowder
got much better during the late 16th century and gunnery tactics moved
towards longer ranges and the breech-loaders couldn't contain the gas
pressure.
Piston seals were made of leather into the late 19th century.
The main problem for a 20th century engineer caught in 16th century
England would be (1) the boiler (2) something useful to do with the engine.
Steam engines came into common use in England and Wales to pump out mines
which had been mined s