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SCA-hist2-msg - 8/20/94

 

Messages on the history of the SCA from 3/93 until 8/94.

 

NOTE: See also the files: SCA-hist1-msg, SCA-hist3-msg, SCA-stories1-msg, vanity-plates-msg, placenames-msg, Hst-SCA-Fence-art, you-know-msg.

 

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NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

 

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org

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"History is a moving target that changes as fresh details are discovered, as errors are corrected, as popular attitudes shift.  Historians carve the sculpture that is Truth not out of granite, but out of wet clay."

 

-   From the preface to "The Life of Muad'Dib" in the Dune series.

-----

 

From: PB06098 at uafsysb.uark.EDU (Paul Byers)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Fighting Hamsters

Date: 12 Mar 1993 05:06:46 -0500

 

The Calontir song of fighting hamsters is written for me. (large grin and

swelling of breast!)

 

Back at pensic 12, or was it 13? anyway, In those days I fought with a duck

taped hamster on my helm. (plastic, sword and shield, brown.) That was the year I introed the Calon shield wall. I was the center scutum, anchoring the whole line. All my secondarys were females. All through the different assaults they would hit my hamster with their pommels. hamster would squeak, they would giggle, I would yell/whine 'girls! Please!' and the foe sore confused.

 

later in the war a great sword blew the poor hamster off my helm. We recovered

him and got him drunk. After that for a few years most of the calon army wore

hamsters on or in their helms. I still have my original hamster somewhere.

 

Enough. If you want to hear more E-mail me while I'm at a real editor.

 

Pavel (still in combat with the dual demons NDIS and ODI!)

Calontir

 

 

From: cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu ()

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Heraldic Titles

Date: 15 Mar 1993 17:02:57 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

Tim at f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) writes:

> I've wondered the same -- I wonder even more at the "chronicler" being a

> Great Officer of State; ....

 

Once upon a time it wasn't.  In the days when Hal and I were Chroniclers

for the West, it was a Lesser Office under the Seneschal. And a good

thing too, because it meant that Hal and I had the Seneschal, Sir William

the Lucky, running interference between us and Jon de Cles, the Steward

from Hell, who lived just up the hill from us.  But that's another story.

 

On the other hand, in those days Lesser Officers didn't swear fealty, and

Laurels and Pelicans didn't swear fealty, so that Hal and I never had a

chance to do so until we had dropped out (during the years when the kids

were too rambunctious to take to tourneys) and dropped back in again and

the rules had changed meanwhile.  So you win some and you lose some....

 

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin          Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                          UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable           cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu

 

 

From: cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu ()

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: O.P.....?

Date: 15 Mar 1993 17:34:46 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

sclark at epas.utoronto.CA (Susan Clark) writes:

>      Trivial question:  is "O.P." an accepted abbreviation for "Order

>      of the Pelican"?

 

Yes.

 

You see, it means something different to me:

>      namely, it is the accepted abbreviation for the Order of Preachers

>      (ordo predicatoris), otherwise known as the Dominican Friars.

 

You bet.  Which is why, when the Order of the Pelican was just getting

into the swing of things, many people who hadn't minded "O.L." got

worried about how confused other people might get about "O.P." and

suggested Pelicans should be described as "Companions of the Pelican,"

abbreviated "C.P.", and tried to back-adapt the other Orders to say

"Companion" too.

 

"Companions of the Pelican" sounds to me rather like that Blackfox

cartoon where the new Pelican (the SCA kind) is sitting on the dock

with a bunch of pelicans (the bird kind) discussing fish and stuff.

 

But then, I am a Westie....

 

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin          Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                        UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable            cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)

Subject: Re: Creative Barbarism, Cloved Fruit, Stephen and Matilda

Organization: University of Chicago

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1993 04:22:01 GMT

 

"The story I heard was that Yang and some fencing buddies went to an

SCA event for the first time, bearing more live steal than the rest

of the  kingdom (midrealm, I believe) possessed at that time. Anyway,

the story is that they were not too kindly received, and formed the

Horde as a way of participating in the SCA while avoiding the more

stodgy old-guard types."

 

(David the Fretful)

 

I am not sure what counts as stodgy old-guard types; at the time you

are describing the kingdom was less than two years old. So far as I

can tell, Yang wanted to participate in the SCA without being in

allegiance to the King of the Middle, and formed the Horde as a way

of doing so. I think part of the idea was to provide a symbolic enemy

for the kingdom, as a way of creating useful competition--"we are

braver/cleverer/more honorable than you, and if you don't believe it

prove we are wrong by being brave/clever/honorable." At least, that

was the way I read his purpose at the time, and I cannot see any

later evidence that I was wrong.

 

I do not think that authenticity had anything to do with it, in

either direction--which is why I took issue with your previous post.

 

David/Cariadoc

 

 

From: andrewt at csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Andrew Terrance Trembley)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Creative Barbarism, Cloved Fruit, Stephen and Matilda

Date: 8 Apr 1993 01:40:35 GMT

Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

 

From deane at binah.cc.brandeis.edu (David Matthew Deane):

> formal structure of the SCA. Now, the story I was told was that there was some

> friction between Yang and his friends, and those who were running things in the

> Midrealm when they joined the SCA. Doubtless this has been exaggerated in the

> telling. Or perhaps it is entirely ficticious. But I didn't mean to say that

 

Well, I have it on good authority (Lady Fey, I can hardly pronounce her full

name, much less spell it, of Zenith Pages School in Caer Anterth Mawr,

ex-tarkahn, and Grand Old Lady of the Dark Horde) that when Yang joined SCA,

it was because he and some of his fencing buddies thought they were going to

show these SCA folk (Northwoods) what real swordfighting was.  As it turned

out, they did really well in the tourney.  However, their "garb" was the

same color as the then Baron of Northwood's colors, and he got a little

miffed.  I can get better details if I can talk Fey into writing the whole

story down.

 

Basically, if I have the story right, the whole Horde was improvised on the

spot for entertainment value, and slowly but surely took on a life of its

own.

 

as always, I'm...

                       Andries de Hoog

--

as always, I'm...   Andy Trembley               andrewt at csd4.csd.uwm.edu

 

 

From: KGANDEK at mitvmc.mit.EDU (Kathryn Gandek)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Tuchux at Coopers

Date: 11 Apr 1993 16:08:03 -0400

 

I can't make any authoritative statements about who discovered Cooper's Lake as

a site, but I can  cite  one early use of Cooper's by SCA and Tuchux before it

was ever used as the site for the Pennsic War.  Back in the reign of Asbjorn

and Brekka (the reign in which Pennsic IV occurred), the King's Champion

Tourney was held at Cooper's Lake.  My husband drove out there with Asbjorn

and has a very vivid memory of qualifying several tuchux fighters, including

a tuchux fighter with a prosthetic leg.  As many people on the Rialto (but not

myself) can cite from personal experience, Pennsic IV was deluged by rain at

someplace other than Cooper's Lake.

 

So, somebody in the Pittsburgh area - be they SCA or Tuchux - discovered

Cooper's Lake was a neat site to hold an event.  And, presumably, at some later

point it dawned on someone that it was a good place for the Pennsic War.  I

don't know who was there first, but both the SCA and Tuchux were there before

the Pennsic War was.

 

Catrin o'r Rhyd For             Kathryn Gandek-Tighe

Barony of Carolingia            Boston area

East Kingdom                    kgandek at mit.edu

 

 

From: cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu ()

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Only a Knight can make a Knight

Date: 16 Apr 1993 23:06:29 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

WILLIS%EIVAX at ualr.EDU (Brandr) writes:

>              ...knights of the SCA have a direct lineage from the knight

>                templars through Masonic Orders.  He stated it was because

>                the first knight of the SCA was a knight templar of the

>                Masons.

 

Uh, I don't _think_ it was Masons.  Siegfried von Hoflichskei (David

Thewlis) and Fulk de Wyvern (Ken deMaiffe) had been knighted--whether I

should surround that with quotes, I honestly don't know--by somebody

they met in Europe.  When they got back to the States, they knighted

(same disclaimer) some of their friends, e.g., Jon deCles (Donald

Studebaker).  At the first tourney in Diana's back yard, Ardral Argo

verKaeysc (David Bradley) fought well enough that they knighted him

on the spot.  Then at Twelfth Night, year Two (was it Two? I think

so...) Siegfried knighted whoever was King at the time (William the

Silent?) and he knighted everybody else (including Fulk and Siegfried

and Jon), "bootstrapping the Order," as Siegfried later put it.

 

The attitude that "only a knight can make a knight" dates back at least

that far.

 

I have a very old book of West Kingdom history at home; I'll look some

of this stuff up and post some of the names and dates.

 

But whether this guy in Europe was a templar, a Mason, a "real" knight,

a fantasy knight, or just a figment of somebody's imagination, I haven't

a clue.  Maybe someday I'll run into Siegfried again and remember to

ask him.

 

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin          Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                   UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable           cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu

 

 

From: cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu ()

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Only a Knight can make a Knight

Date: 19 Apr 1993 02:31:17 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

Pegasus at aaa.uoregon.edu (LaurieEWBrandt) writes:

> cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu wrote:

>>

>> WILLIS%EIVAX at ualr.EDU (Brandr) writes:

>>

>> >          ...knights of the SCA have a direct lineage from the knight

>> >            templars through Masonic Orders.  ....

>>

>> Uh, I don't _think_ it was Masons.  ....

>> I have a very old book of West Kingdom history at home; I'll look some

>> of this stuff up and post some of the names and dates.

>

>Could some one in An Tir Barony of Three Mountians ask Sir Jamie of the

>Oakenshield who was knighted in Jan 6 as 2 [1968] about the truth of the

>matter?

 

Oh, is Sir Jamie still active (or active again)?  How nice.  Yes, he

was one of the seven knights from Twelfth Night, AS 2.  I have my book

here and the other six were Bela of Eastmarch, Fulk de Wyvern, Karl vom

Acht, Kerry the Rock, Siegfried von Ho"flichskeit, and Steven of the

Ashenlands.  Edwin Bersark and Richard of Mont Real were made Masters-

of-Arms, and Alfonso de Castile and Beverly Hodghead Masters of the

Laurel.  It was quite a night.  I helped write the ceremonies, including

the Oath of Fealty (borrowed mostly from Tolkien) which is still used in

the West Kingdom to this day.

 

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin          Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                   UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable           cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu

 

 

From: David Schroeder <ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: SCA Geography

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1993 11:56:40 -0400

Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

 

Good Bjalfi and readers --

 

My favorite SCA geographical puzzler is:

 

  Q: What was the first kingdom in the SCA?

  A: The answer, surprisingly, is "The East"

 

     The West, of course, is earlier, but evidently

     referred to itself as "The Society" or "The Mistlands"

     and only became "The West Kingdom" when there was an

     East Kingdom for contrast...  At least that's what I

     heard from Seigfried von Hoflichtkeit.

 

  Another might ask why, geographically, the Midrealm's kingdom

  newsletter was called "The Pale" ?  It seems the "original"

  Middle Kingdom stretched all the way down to New Orleans and

  therefore the Midrealm formed a pale on the vaguely shieldlike

  shape of North America.

 

  How many kingdoms border the Great Lakes?

   2:  East and Middle

 

  Where to the largest number of kingdoms intersect?

   I'm not sure, but it's an interesting question...

   Do the East, Middle, Atlantia, and Meridies touch anywhere?  No.

   There are _lots_ of three-kingdom intersections...

   What about Outlands, Atenveldt, Caid, and the West...?

 

  Perhaps a better question would be:

 

   Q: Which kingdom has the largest number of bordering kingdoms?

 

   A: The Middle borders the East, An Tir, Calontir, Meridies, & Outlands

 

also

 

   Q: What are the meanings of the non-obvious kingdom names?

   A: Ansteorra   -- "one star/lone star (sort of)"

      An Tir      -- "the land"

      Calontir    -- "heartlands"

      Meridies    -- "south"

      Trimaris    -- "three seas"  (Gulf of Mexico, Caribbean, Atlantic)

      Drachenwald -- "dragon wood"

      Caid        --  acronym for Calafia, Angels, Isles, & Dreiburgen

                      their first 4 baronies...  also Arabic? for fortress

 

      Oertha      -- "north"

      Ealdormere  -- "old lakes"

      AEthelmearc -- "noble border"

 

Enjoy  -- Bertram

 

 

From: mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu (Michael Chance)

Subject: Re: SCA Geography

Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.

Date: Fri, 30 Apr 93 20:10:41 GMT

 

Kvedjur fra Mikjal till Bjalfi!

 

Try this one:  What is the name of the only SCA group ever located behind

the Iron Curtain (or in a Soviet-dominated area)?

 

A: The Shire of Perilous Journey (Berlin, Germany).  It's 110 miles

from Berlin to the old intra-German border.  (New groups forming in

Russia don't count - the wall came down in '89.)

 

Mikjal Annarbjorn

Former Perilous Journey Pursuivant

--

Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA   "At play in the fields

Work: mc307a%viking at swgate2.sbc.com                        of St. Vidicon"

Play: ab899 at freenet.hsc.colorado.edu

      mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu

 

 

From: james at nucleus.cuc.ab.CA (James Prescott)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Earl Edward Ean Anderson

Date: 11 May 1993 06:22:56 -0400

Organization: Nucleus BBS - Calgary, AB CANADA + 1 403 531-9353

-

Just a small correction to Berengaria's post.

-

Earl Edward Ean Anderson took the arrow through the right eye slot at

the "Clash of the Tetons"/"Chocolate Chip Cookie War"/"Salmon War"

in Salmon Idaho (June 1982) between An Tir and Atenveldt. The arrow

was an ordinary West/An Tir war blunt. The *problem* was the face

mesh, which had been purchased in Salmon at the last minute from a

hardware store, and which turned out to be much much weaker than it

appeared to casual inspection. End of casual inspections of mesh.

Edward was unhurt, but shaken, by the experience.

-

James Prescott (james at nucleus.cuc.ab.ca), (403) 282-0541

Thorvald Grimsson, OP, OL, OGGS, Baron of Montengarde, Yeoman

Royal Archer for Crown Principality of Avacal, Kingdom of An Tir

... and in Iceland 'tis the year of the White Christ 973 ...

 

 

From: mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu (Michael Chance)

Subject: Re: Skraeling wives?, Persona and honesty, Norse in America

Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.

Date: Mon, 17 May 93 18:16:56 GMT

 

Hossein Ali Qomi writes:

 

>I would truly like to understand why people are generally willing to

>characterize slipshod or intellecutally dishonest use of documentation

>to justify persona practices as "a disagreement over the rules" when

>they don't, by and large, treat false claims of peerage as the same

>kind of disagreement.

 

Ah, this is becoming a pet peeve of mine.  It has to do with the

unfortunate choice of a name for the organization. one which I'm sure

Ms. Bradley regrets every time the argument is used.

 

We're the Society for _Creative_ Anachronism.

 

I can't begin to recall how many times the name has been used in an

argument to justify some gross historical inaccuracy. Anything can be

justified, just call it a "creative anachronism" (I've even seen this

used in A&S documentation).

 

Folks, the name came about because a park ranger needed a group name

to reserve the site for one of the first tourneys.  Nobody had ever

thought about it before, and, with the park ranger waiting on the

other end of the phone, Marion Zimmer Bradley came up with "Society

for Creative Anachronism" off the top of her head under pressure

(remember, this was Berkely in '66-'67).  To the utter despair of

many people, 'lo these many years later, the name stuck, and despite

the best intentions of the founders of the SCA, it's crippled us ever

since.

 

Mikjal Annarbjorn

--

Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA   "At play in the fields

Work: mc307a%viking at swgate2.sbc.com                        of St. Vidicon"

Play: ab899 at freenet.hsc.colorado.edu

      mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu

 

 

From: icklinck at undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Ian "Rhys" Klinck)

Subject: Re: Harold,Belts,Peers, Squir

Organization: University of Waterloo

Date: Tue, 18 May 1993 21:31:22 GMT

 

re: Poobah/Foobah:

 

Well, the story *I* heard, from a local of great experience (Though not, of

course as much as His Grace's) is that during the reign of King Merowald, he

was presented with a gift of belly-dancers.  His response was "Hubba hubba!"

to which his Herald replied "No, Your Majesty, this is the Middle Ages, the

correct term is Hoobah Hoobah!"... since then the "official cheer" of the

Middle is "Hoobah!"

 

Dilestair fid dy hynt, ac ni rusia ddim rhagot!

Rhys ap Bledri

from Ealdormere, where we say "Wassail!"

(icklinck at cayley.uwaterloo.ca)

 

 

From: mcdaniel at convex.com (Tim McDaniel)

Subject: Hoobah

Date: Fri, 21 May 1993 20:49:51 GMT

Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA

 

A note from "Collected Brief History of the Middle Kingdom: Volumes I &

II: Cariadoc to Nathan", Orlando Ambrosius (Baron Daemon de Folo of

Wu:rm Wald, F. L. Watkins), Second Edition (A.S. 23 / 1989), p. 42.

It's from (as of 1989)

    Folump Enterprises

    805 East Green #1

    Urbana, IL 61801

 

"At the first [Canton of] Three Hills [Kalamazoo, Mich.] event, held

that October [1971], Finnvarr was knighted.  However, also at this

event, [Queen] Morna danced again ... Morgan ... and Morna had been

early missionaries for the exotic dancers guild; and through Duchess

Diana, it spread to Treegirtsea [Chicago, Ill.].  Finnvar notes in his

history of Iriel that 'It was in sardonic approbation of one of the

guild's better efforts that Iriel himself coined the phrase "Hoo-bah,"

which has since become the traditional plaudit of the Middle Kingdom.'"

[footnote: Steve Muhlberger, "The History of King Iriel of Brannokh."]

 

This account leaves unclear whether it was at this exact event that

"hoobah" was coined, but it's possible.  Daemon mentions the guild

elsewhere (in re May 1971 Crown Tourney.  "It is said that Cariadoc, who

affected a Moorish persona, got onto the floor himself." p. 34).  If

"hoobah" wasn't coined at the October event, the story could just as

easily been put elsewhere.

 

Page 45 mentions Treegirtsea Twelfth Night, a bit later, where "Cariadoc

made a war arrow and gave it to Iriel, suggesting that Iriel return it

to Cariadoc to take with him 'as a token of war to the King of the East.

[When the Eastern King, Rakkurai, took the arrow,] 'he broke it, saying

"So will be do with the armies of the Middle" or words to that

effect,'[footnote: Letter from David Friedman, 2 July 1983] setting in

motion the wheels of war."

 

It's not clear from the account when Cariadoc moved to the East, but he

was obviously visiting very near the time of origination of "hoobah".

Perhaps it wasn't in general use yet.

--

Daniel of Lincoln, Barony of the Steppes, Ansteorra

(Tim McDaniel, Convex Computer Corporation)

Internet: mcdaniel at convex.com, mcdaniel at cyberspace.org

 

 

From: David Schroeder <ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Early Pennsic Sizes

Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 09:23:40 -0400

Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

 

Greetings good gentles --

 

I've been enjoying (well, sort of) this year's discussion of period

tents and space at Pennsic.  I'm confident the Coopers can handle

_quite_ a few more campers (it would be easy enough to move _all_

the cars to a remote site and run the shuttle busses to them,

freeing up all the parking space for camping).  

 

I'm also curious, for those people _with_ period tents, if they've

managed to figure out some way of "bug proofing" them.  My lady is

a "reluctant camper" at best and the only way I can make her "happy"

at the necessity of camping at Pennsic is to provide comfort and

a relatively "bug free" sleeping environment. We have a double room

Eureka modern tent that does a marvelous job of keeping out insects

and keeping in warmth.  How do folks with period tents manage?

 

As for War sizes, I did a reasonable amount of research for my TI

article on the first ten Pennsics twelve years ago and would offer

the following rough attendance figures for them.  Jessa and Dennis

have both been commenting on this matter.  All figures are approximate.

 

   I     II       III    IV      V      VI   VII   VIII   IX    X

  100  200-250  300-350  250  300-350  600+  1000  1300 1700  2000  

 

The recent event held at Coopers Lake, AEthelmearc War Practice, had

a few hundred people and had much of the same feel as the early Coopers

Lake Pennsics (though there were more and better organized merchants!).

 

Oh, tangentally, interested parties are directed to articles in the

current issue of Scientific American on deep well drilling in medieval

China.  They were drilling for salt brine in Sichuan, I believe, and

used some of the volatile gasses coming out of the wells to help

feed the fires evaporating the salt.  ("Does that make propane

burners period?" he asks with a smile.) Also, the wire services have

been running an article about finds from a Spanish ship, the San Diego,

sunk by the Dutch near the Phillipines.  Apparently the ship carried

Ming Dynasty pottery from China as well as Japanese warriors for

protection -- this may have some bearing on the on-going Oriental

persona debate.

 

Take care, good gentles -- may your ink never run!

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+

Bertram of Bearington                                     Dave Schroeder

Debatable Lands/AEthelmearc/East               Carnegie Mellon University

INTERNET: ds4p at andrew.cmu.edu                         412/731-3230 (Home)

 

 

From: keradwc at rahul.net (Kevin Davis Connery)

Subject: Re: palatine baronies

Organization: Ringworld Engineering

Date: Fri, 28 May 1993 23:35:53 GMT

 

(Hal Ravn) writes:

> at bransle.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Draskoy) writes:

>>    Palatine barony -- no reference; is a non-standard branch organization

>>       occasionally authorized by the Board pursuant to C-V.D.5 for very

>>       isolated groups.

>>

>>V.D.5 allows the BoD to experiment with new kinds of groups.

>>What exactly is a palatine barony, and are there any in existence?

>

>Yes.  The Barony of the Far West (West Kingdom), comprising Japan,

>Korea, Guam, and Tinian is a Palatine Barony.  I have heard remarks

>suggesting that there is another one somewhere, but I don't know

>where.

 

So soon they forget <g>. If you go about halfway(?) to the Far West, you'll

end up in the ...

 

Barony of the Western Seas, Once a Western Barony, they changed alliegance

to Caid about 10-12 years back. They've been 'palatinate' since then.

 

On the other hand, these are the only ones I've heard of. Perhaps all

palatinate baronies must come from the West, have West as part of their

names, and be islands? <g>

 

Keradwc

 

--

Keradwc an Cai                     A Caidan Mistie (or was that a Misty Caidan?)

Kevin Davis Connery                kconnery at isi.com or keradwc at rahul.net

 

 

From: cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu ()

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Our game

Date: 4 Jun 1993 19:17:17 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

(Angharad apud Hossein) writes:

>

>Bertram writes,

>>The Society _began_ as a fantasy/romantic _Arthurian_ generic "medieval"

>>recreation group -- NOT as a historical recreation organization.  

>

>.... The original model, to the best of my knowledge,

>was indeed Arthurian: a distinctively western model.

 

As one who was there (I wasn't at the first tourney, but I was at the

second and third and the summer between them during which we actually

sat down occasionally and tried to figure out what it was we were doing),

Angharad is right.  We were to a large extent making it up as we went

along, and considering almost all of us came from SF/F fandom it would

be a wonder if we didn't have some fantasy elements in there.  But

mainly we were trying to be knights in shining armour, just as we had

all read about in Mallory.

 

>Actually, I'm not nearly as opposed to Japanese personas....

 

I don't object a whole lot to Japanese personae either, because your

traditional samurai milieu is a feudal one with virtual knights, kings,

ladies, swordfights, castles.  They blend in with a thirteenth-century

Western knight about as well as a seventh-century man-at-arms or an

Elizabethan court fop do: well enough for me, if not for some.  There's

a certain suspension of disbelief (another stfnal phrase) you have to

perform, or give up the SCA and go off eg. with Aryk's group, for whom

it is 1595 plus or minus 5 years.

 

I find it harder to deal with bunnyfur barbarians of Gor, not so much

because they look so different as because they are so obviously coming

from different sources.  They haven't been reading Sir Thomas Malory

(who wrote about noble knights and ladies and was a jerk in private

life), they've been reading John Norman (who writes about sadistic

men and masochistic women and is a respectable professor of philosophy

in private life) or watching Conan movies (whose producers have no

virtues at all so far as I can tell).

 

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin          Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                   UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable           cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu

 

 

From: cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu ()

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Our game

Date: 7 Jun 1993 18:46:38 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

David Schroeder <ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

>Angharad wrote, in response to my comments on her "boccer" post:

>

>> The original model, to the best of my knowledge,

>> was indeed Arthurian: a distinctively western model.

>

>I would greatly appreciate it if Flieg or one of the other good gentles

>(Dorothea?) who started quite early would confirm that we were "purely"

>Western European from the earliest days.

 

Well, we weren't purely Western as in, no fantasy.  At the first tourney

in Diana's back yard, we had among others Benjy Rolls (aetate suo about 9)

as a hobbit, Astrid Anderson (later Countess Astrid of Hawk Ridge) as

Queen Lucy of Narnia, and Marion Zimmer Bradley (later Mistress Elfrieda

of Greenwalls) as Don~a Ximena, wife to El Cid.  (You'll notice also that

we hadn't yet developed the rule about "you can't be X, there's already

been one!").

 

As early as the second tourney (the first one I attended) there was a lot

less of the costume-party atmosphere, and nobody seemed to be attending

dressed as their favorite character in fiction.  But among the decorative

(painted cardboard) shields hung on the trees and other vertical surfaces

were several devices out of Tolkien, noticeably the Eye of Sauron.  

 

So far as I can recall, however, we started out purely Western as in,

no Japanese, still less Roman legionaries, Native Americans, or cavaliers.

I _think_ the first person to come in Japanese garb would've been Duke

Henrik of Havn, around the year Five.  Henrik happened to hold the opinion

that Japanese ladies were more beautiful, gracious, and admirable than

any other ladies on this earth, and since he eventually married a Japanese-

American lady and made her his Duchess, he undoubtedly holds this opinion

still.  He, and a few of his squires, started wearing Japanese garb

_sometimes,_ not always, around this time.

 

>My understanding of things was that we were a _very_ flexible group

>in the early days -- just as now almost any passing cultural fad would

>find itself reflected in the Society.

 

I think it's already been told on this group how at Beltane we were

visted by one Andrew Martinez, the famed "Naked Guy" of UC Berkeley

(formerly of, I should say, because they expelled him). He showed up

in what he might have argued was legitimate, pre-1600 garb, i.e., that

of Adam.  I don't know if he had a chance to present that argument,

because the Autocrat sailed into him and said, -"I don't care what

they let you get away with in Berkeley, this is Colfax, and I have

about ten sets of parents ready to swear out a warrant for your arrest

for indecent exposure!"-  He put on a loincloth.

 

That's how I saw him Friday evening, wandering along in his loincloth,

bare feet and shaven head.  By Saturday noon he had put on a pair of

baggy pants.  By Sunday he had added a bandanna over his head, a little

bolero, and sandals.  If it'd only been a longer event, we might have

had him fully dressed by the time he went home.

 

Variations between kingdoms and

>regions of kingdoms on such matters were also great (as they remain!).

 

True.  I don't think I've ever seen a West Kingdom cavalier, and I've

certainly never seen an Aztec.  (They have one in Caid, I believe.)

 

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin          Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                   UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable           cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu

 

 

From: james at nucleus.cuc.ab.CA (James Prescott)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Arrows near eyes (again)

Date: 22 Jun 1993 14:00:03 -0400

Organization: Nucleus Information Service

 

Alan Fletcher said:

>Everyone I've talked to about the incident, including a very good

>friend of Sir Ian's, has said that he was wearing insufficient mesh

>over his eyeslot, and the only reason that the marshalls passed him

>was because of that little white belt.  I haven't heard of any similar

>stories elsewhere, so I do think that that was an isolated event.

 

Siobhan replied:

>As I recall, it was in the first Great Desert War (which became

>Estrella) that just such an event (perhaps even this event) occurred.

>The archer in question was the young Stephen (later to become Sir

>Stephen and King Stephen) of Bellatrix.  The comment I first

>overheard was, "Well, damn! Stevie's learned to shoot a snap!"

 

-

Just a small correction to Alan Fletcher's post, with some additional

information for Siobhan, that she may not feel so doddering.

-

Earl Sir Edward Ean Anderson took the arrow through the right eye slot

at the "Clash of the Tetons"/"Chocolate Chip Cookie War"/"Salmon War"/

"Bitterroot War" (yup, at least 4 names) in Salmon, Idaho (June 19-20

1982) between An Tir and Atenveldt. The arrow was an ordinary West/

An Tir war blunt. The *problem* was the face mesh, which had been

purchased in Salmon at the last minute from a hardware store (because

many fighters had forgotten to bring their own mesh), and which turned

out to be much much weaker than it appeared to casual inspection. End

of casual inspections of mesh. Edward was unhurt, but shaken, by the

experience.

-

Edward was not yet a knight, by nearly two years (he did not even have

his AoA at the time), so the presence or absence of a white belt had

nothing to do with it. In fact, the same mesh had been given to well

over a dozen forgetful heavies.

-

James Prescott (james at nucleus.cuc.ab.ca), (403) 282-0541

Thorvald Grimsson, OP, OL, OGGS, Baron of Montengarde, Yeoman

Royal Archer for Crown Principality of Avacal, Kingdom of An Tir

... and in Iceland 'tis the year of the White Christ 973 ...

 

 

From: fixit at astro.dasd.honeywell.com

Subject: Re: Time to Peerage

Organization: Honeywell Inc. DASD

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1993 20:47:26 GMT

 

In article <20n5tb$32n at menudo.uh.edu>, cosc19ut at menudo.uh.edu (Stephen) writes:

> She can be found playing

> under the name of Therese Honey (her real name, believe it or not).

> If you get a chance to hear her, do so. It really is wonderful.

 

Yes it is.  I last heard hear at TFYC and just had to get her recordings.

> As to her Laurel, she received the peerage along with many others. Seems

> Ansteorra didn't have enough peers to be a kingdom and Atenveldt

> really wanted to get rid of them, so they created lots of peers. I don't

 

Atenveldt had a king (Theo) that wanted to do something impressive.

Ansteorra well deserved to be it's own kingdom.

 

> have an OP handy, but I think they made something like 6 or 7 Laurels that

> day. She certainly deserved it as much as any, and more than some.

 

There were seven laurels created at that Crown Tourney.  I was there.

 

Gunwaldt

 

From: fixit at astro.dasd.honeywell.com

Subject: Re: Time to Peerage

Organization: Honeywell Inc. DASD

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 13:48:31 GMT

 

In article <1993Jun29.134726.1 at astro.dasd.honeywell.com>, fixit at astro.dasd.honeywell.com writes:

> There were seven laurels created at that Crown Tourney.  I was there.

 

My how the mind slips.  After thinking of this further I am no longer sure

if it was the first crown or not.  Perhaps not.  But Theo did make 7 laurels

and 1 pelcan all in one fell swoop.

 

I would still say that Ansteorra well deserved to be a kingdom.

 

Gunwaldt

 

From: mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu (Michael Chance)

Subject: Re: Drachenwald Coronation

Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 18:12:27 GMT

 

Kvedjur fra Mikjal!

 

Lindorm describes the first Drachenwald Coronation, saying:

 

>Duke Siegfried von Hoeflichkeit had brought the crowns that was used for the

>first coronation in the SCA in A.S. II

 

This is singularly appropriate.  A few years before the First Tourney,

Duke Siegfried (one of the founders of the SCA) was stationed with the

U.S. Air Force in Berlin, Germany, and for recreation would go

"castling" around Europe with a friend stationed in Bremerhaven (who

later became Fulk de Wyvern).  As His Grace told the story, it was on

one of these trips that they started thinking, "Gee, wouldn't it be fun

to have a tourney society in the U.S. that did things like the castle

festivals they have here in Europe?"

 

Ever since I heard that story, I've been of the opinion that, while

the birth of the SCA was in Diana Listmaker's back yard, conception

took place on the U.S. military train, somewhere between Berlin and

Bremen.

 

Mikjal Annarbjorn

--

Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA   "At play in the fields

Work: mc3078 at sw1sta.sbc.com                             of St. Vidicon"

Play: ab899 at freenet.hsc.colorado.edu

      mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu

 

 

From: helm at ymir.ucdavis.EDU (Seriously Tweaked)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Motive behind incorporation of SCA

Date: 14 Jul 1993 03:02:33 -0400

 

I got this from both Diana Listmaker and from Teresa of Rivendell,

two of the founding members of Greyhaven.  The reason they bothered

with incorporation was to get non-profit group mailing rates and

bulk mailing permits.

 

Twcs

 

 

From: cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu ()

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Court Baronies

Date: 20 Jul 1993 18:13:03 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

ARCHER at utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer) writes:

>In my experience, the court barony as a royal attaboy is rare, but exists

>here.

 

Keep in mind, for what it's worth, that the "royal attaboy" was the origin

of the rank of court baron.  King Jean de la Grand' Anse, in about the

Year IV, wanted to do _something_ nice for his father, who had never

been interested in the SCA before or since, and never attended any event

but his son's coronation.  So Jean invented "court baron" as a sort of

"King's Order of Grace".

 

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin          Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                   UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable           cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu

 

 

From: shick at europa.eng.gtefsd.com (Steve Hick, GTE FSD SE Engineering)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: court baronies

Date: 26 Jul 1993 20:08:35 GMT

Organization: GTE GSC Federal Systems Division

 

*> Okay, I give up.  What the heck is the Captaincy-General of Guatemala!?!

*>                    ----Simon

 

Originated during the reign of Gyrth and Melisande. Algernon was in the Peace Corp and being sent to

Guatemala for his 2 year tenure, and Gyrth and Mel made him their Captain-General.  This was ca AS XIII.

 

Strykar

 

 

From: fixit at astro.dasd.honeywell.com

Subject: Re: Simplification

Organization: Honeywell Inc. DASD

 

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 17:22:49 GMT

 

Dennis O'Connor writes:

> Third, relax. So what if someone did sue the SCA ? So what if

> we loose all the money in the banks? The SCA is it's _people_,

> not it's bankbooks. We started with no money, we can re-start

> from zero money if we had too. It would be easier this time,

> since the SCA is bigger and has more people who have $$$ now.

> Christ, we don't even have any Real Property to lose !

I would like to point out that the SCA has been sued, unsuccessfully,

by a disgruntled former member.  Having been one of the named

parties in the lawsuit, I find it a little hard to 'relax' about

the situation.  I do have real property and money to lose, and

I'm damn glad that the corporation was willing to handle the

dispute.

 

You don't have to wait for this club to fail or fall apart because

of adminstrative overload to go 're-start' a recreation group.

Take the best ideas, leave what you don't like and go for it.

Australia and New Zealand were encouraged to make their own

corporation precisely because of the differences in local laws

but they found it easier to become part of this organization.

 

Gunwaldt

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Belts and Baldrics

From: bettina.helms at channel1.com (Bettina Helms)

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 93 01:44:00 -0500

Organization: Channel 1(R) * 617-864-0100 Info * 617-354-7077 Modem

 

Re the ongoing discussion over the relationship between Knights and

Masters-at-Arms, here's the way I heard the origin of the whole thing:

 

Many years ago in the East Kingdom, there was a fighter named Sean

Ruadhbaruagh (which means "Redbeard"). He was a very good fighter, and

the King wanted to make him a Knight. But Sean did not want to be a

Knight, he wanted to be something totally unique. So he asked if he

could be a "Master-at-Arms" instead, and the King humored him.

This might have stayed a local joke, like the "Captain-General of

Guatemala" - except that at Pennsic Five(!) one Vissevald Selkirksson,

faced with the same situation, made the same request. Now, with SCA

awards, once is good schtick - twice is a tradition. The idea spread to

other Kingdoms and caught on there too.

 

Vissevald, incidentally, is now a Knight - and there's a story and a

half behind that fact (which he's been hoping for twelve years that

people will forget about, so I won't repeat it here).

 

As far as the East is concerned, the differences between a Knight and a

Master are that a Master wears a baldric and no chain, is not required

to swear fealty, and (if on the throne) cannot create another Knight

without the assistance of a Knight. Otherwise there is no distinction

between these two branches of the Chivalry. Some of the East's best

fighters are Masters-at-Arms - it seems to boil down to whether the

individual feels that Knighthood is appropriate to his/her persona or

not.

 

 

From: 0002853615 at mcimail.COM (William Linden)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Belts and Baldrics

Date: 17 Aug 1993 00:21:37 -0400

 

channel1.com> Katja writes:

>Re the ongoing discussion over the relationship between Knights and

>Masters-at-Arms, here's the way I heard the origin of the whole thing:

 

>Many years ago in the East Kingdom, there was a fighter named Sean

>Ruadhbaruagh (which means "Redbeard"). He was a very good fighter, and

 

>awards, once is good schtick - twice is a tradition. The idea spread to

>other Kingdoms and caught on there too.

  Sounds like another "urban legend" growing. "Masters" were around a long time

before that, and started in the West, probably before there was an East

Kingdom-- the first was the mythical Edwin Berserk. We were told the difference

was some pettifogging about 'having to swear allegiance'.

  Some early official papers have references to '....of the rank of knight or

master fighter', so that may be the original form of the title.

  In Sean's case, some people made a fuss on the ground that he was a

mercenary.

    Alfgar (Call me "Baron", bacon-brain!) the Sententious.

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: fixit at astro.dasd.honeywell.com

Subject: Re: Belts and Baldrics

Organization: Honeywell Inc. DASD

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 18:21:06 GMT

 

Bettina Helms writes:

> Re the ongoing discussion over the relationship between Knights and

> Masters-at-Arms, here's the way I heard the origin of the whole thing:

>

> Many years ago in the East Kingdom, there was a fighter named Sean

> Ruadhbaruagh (which means "Redbeard"). He was a very good fighter, and

> the King wanted to make him a Knight. But Sean did not want to be a

> Knight, he wanted to be something totally unique. So he asked if he

> could be a "Master-at-Arms" instead, and the King humored him.

> This might have stayed a local joke, like the "Captain-General of

> Guatemala" - except that at Pennsic Five(!) one Vissevald Selkirksson,

> faced with the same situation, made the same request. Now, with SCA

> awards, once is good schtick - twice is a tradition. The idea spread to

> other Kingdoms and caught on there

 

An excellent story and the fine makings of folklore.  I like it.  But,

Master Richard the Short was recognized (I believe) before A.S. I.  He

was considered equal to a knight and at the time living in the West.

 

Gunwaldt

 

 

From: cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu ()

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Belts and Baldrics

Date: 17 Aug 1993 19:07:02 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

<fixit at astro.dasd.honeywell.com> wrote:

>Master Richard the Short was recognized (I believe) before A.S. I.  He

>was considered equal to a knight and at the time living in the West.

 

In fact, the title of Master of Arms was invented largely because of

Richard, in preparation for the mass knighting/mastering/laureling

at Twelfth Night, AS II.  Richard was then a seminarian and felt it

would be wrong for him to swear fealty to any earthly power--even in

a game.  Then Edwin Baresark decided he would be a Master too--perhaps

because [in modern terms] it would be more appropriate for his persona,

and Frederick of Holland decided the same because he felt the fealty

relationships and duties were not properly defined.

 

Expertae crede--I helped write the ceremonies...

 

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin          Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                   UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable           cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: steffan at world.std.com (Steven H Mesnick)

Subject: Re: Just What is SCA?

Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1993 22:00:35 GMT

 

Far Isles was an Eastern barony before it left the SCA -- as I understand

it, due to mis-communication with the Corporation and a lot of basically

er, ah, divergent philosophies. The group had originally been founded by

Sir Patri du Chat Gris, Baron Carolingia, while he was in England working

on his doctoral dissertation. Far Isles left the SCA about 10-12 years ago,

I think, not 20+. (I still have -- somewhere -- a friendship favor from

the Baroness, and I've been in the SCA for only 16 years....)

        Steffan

 

From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Weaving

Date: 27 Aug 1993 17:25:40 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at zariski.harvard.edu> wrote:

>

>HL is sometimes used to abbreviate Lordship or Ladyship.  The title

>used for those gentles who have a Grant of Arms.  Some kingdoms use

>the SCAbomination of different levels of armigerousness more than

>others.

 

The original purpose of the Grant of Arms, for those who might be interested,

was to give a Great Officer of State who was not [yet] a Peer some extra

clout to use when dealing with Peers.  Apparently a Constable, for example,

who didn't even have a Leaf yet would hesitate to tell a Megaduke "I'm

sorry, Your Grace, I know it's very inconvenient but you _cannot_

park there..."

 

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin          Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                   UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable           djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu

 

 

From: DEW at ECL.PSU.EDU (Baron Dur al Jabal)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Pennsic Urban Myths

Date: 3 Sep 1993 01:19:50 GMT

Organization: Orluk Oasis

 

f333.n142.z1.fidonet.org writes:

 

#> DMD> One idea I overheard, to limit Pennsic, was to restrict Pennsic to SCA

#> DMD> members only. This is not my idea, this is simply something I heard

#> DMD> suggested. I don't think it's a good idea, but it would trim numbers

#> DMD> down.

#> DMD> If that is what you truly want to do.

#>  

#> This would, of course, be terribly unpopular among the Tuchux.  Especially

#> considering it was *they* who discovered Cooper Lake and invited the SCA to come

#> play there... ;)

#>

 

I think you should ask Mac Cooper and Duke Dagan (who was the original

"finder" of Coopers Lake Campgrounds

 

It might surprize you that the 'chux found out after things were already going

there (i.e. if they invited us, why weren't they there at PW

VI?)

 

Dale E. Walter     |Dur of Hidden Mountain          

                   |Durr al-Jabal abu Nefia min al-Maqfi Jabal Amir ilorluk

dew at ecl.psu.edu    |Orluk Oasis on the War Road (of Aethelmarc)

 

 

From: cosc19ut at menudo.uh.edu (Stephen)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Recruiting

Date: 17 Sep 1993 08:46:00 -0500

Organization: University of Houston

 

Jaguar writes:

>Now out of curiousity, how common is it for a non sword and shield

>fighter to win a crown tourney?

 

Duke Charles Inman MacMoore won a crown tournament in Ansteorra some years

ago fighting only spear. People who were there say it was rather boring

to watch, as he killed almost everyone with one shot.

 

Mind you, I think he won his other 4 crowns in a rather more conventional

manner.

 

Etienne d'Yverdon

 

 

From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: SCA History Stuff

Date: 13 Sep 1993 16:42:33 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

Bettina Helms <bettina.helms at channel1.com> wrote:

>Oh? Is Diana Paxson on this Net? John and/or Bjo Trimble? Marion Zimmer

>Bradley?

 

Not that I know of.

 

Fred Hollander?

 

He sure is.  Haven't you seen his .sig with the strawberry leaves and

the slogan "Old Used Duke"?

 

Poul Anderson?

 

No.

Dr. Margaret Pope? Maybe they

>just lurk, and post at extremely rare intervals?

 

Dr. Pope has been dead for several years.  I don't know if the Internet

reaches Heaven yet or not.

 

So far the senior

>person I have seen on this Net has been Baron Alfgar - and he only goes

>back to about AS III.

 

Will I do?  I wasn't at the first tourney, but I was at the second and

subsequent.  I really do go back to the Year One. Anything I can do

for you?

>

>....Eyewitness

>accounts from the early years of the East Kingdom .... clearly indicate ....

>a significant *preference* for Far Eastern personae

>(Akbar ibn Murad, third and fifth King of the East; Murad ibn Hakim,

>fourth King of the East - their personae are not Arab but Moghul, from

>India after the Mongol takeover; Rakkurai of Kamakura, sixth King of the

>East; Master Vuong Manh; Baroness Sita of Oudh; etc.) Apparently some of

>the early members took the designation of "East" Kingdom very literally.

 

Basically, yes.  For the same reason the Middle Kingdom put a Chinese

dragon on its arms.  You'll recall that back in AS single-digits, not

only were we still trying to figure out what we were doing, but we were

most of us very young--and the rest of us were science fiction fans and/or

writers, which tends to keep the brain limber and foster youthful attitudes.

>

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin          Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                   UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable           djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu

 

 

From: gillimer at genie.geis.COM

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Easter(ling) personae

Date: 16 Sep 1993 23:38:05 -0400

 

Katja writes:

>How about black Vikings? There's one locally, who doesn't bother to

    Not to mention that alpine freebooter El of the Two Knives, whose father

"brought back a dusky maiden...."

>(Oral tradition has it that the East Kingdom picked an azure tyger in

>response to the Middle's dragon, when somebody (Vuong Manh? Duke

  It was an individual this person usually refers to with the perpendicular

pronoun...er, it was I. See Borges BOOK OF IMAGINARY BEINGS... I picked on

the Vietnamese version because the Chinese one was a dragon (for obvious

reasons).

Alfgar (Call me "Baron", jobbernowl!) the Sententious

From: David Friedman <NetID at cornell.edu>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Easterners in East, Chinese in Middle?

Date: 17 Sep 1993 02:56:03 GMT

Organization: Cornell University

 

Bettina Helms, bettina.helms at channel1.com writes:

 

>Eyewitness

>accounts from the early years of the East Kingdom (yes, I

interviewed

>Baron Alfgar among other people) clearly indicate

...

> a significant *preference* for Far Eastern personae

>(Akbar ibn Murad, third and fifth King of the East; Murad ibn

Hakim,

>fourth King of the East - their personae are not Arab but

Moghul, from

>India after the Mongol takeover; Rakkurai of Kamakura, sixth

King of the

>East; Master Vuong Manh; Baroness Sita of Oudh; etc.)

Apparently some of

>the early members took the designation of "East" Kingdom very

literally.

 

You exaggerate. Off hand, the only eastern easterners from the early days I

can think of other than those you list were the ladies of House Hakim--

Fatima and Khadijah. We had one prominent Islamic household (Hakim), one

prominent Japanese individual (Rakkurai), and a few individuals with

eastern personae. Note, for example, that Vuong Manh was not master

Vuong Manh until long after--indeed, I am not even sure if he was a

member during the reigns of Murad, Akbar, and Rakkurai.

 

Also, I believe House Hakim was mongol persian, presumably Ilkhanid, not

Moghul, although I might be mistaken. If I am correct, then the only

prominent individual in the early history of the East I can think of who

was not from one of the "western or in contact with the west" cultures

was Rakkurai.

 

>I also got sketchy accounts of the (figurative) bloodbath around AS V or

>VI, when the controversy over whether to join the West and Middle

>Kingoms in "the SCA, Inc." got so heated and vicious that a number of

>active members strongly *opposed* to incorporation were driven away

>forever. (Some of them still live in the Boston area...but will have

>nothing to do with the SCA and will not discuss it in any way.)

 

If I have my dates correct, you are describing a period that included my

first Eastern reign. The East was already a part of the corporation at the

time--indeed, I am fairly sure it was a part of the corporation several

years earlier, when the Middle Kingdom was founded as a principality of

the East Kingdom. There was some unpleasantness around the time of

Rakkurai's reign, but it had nothing to do with whether or not we were

going to "join the West and the Middle kingdoms in the SCA, Inc."

 

Dorothea quotes Bettina Helms on early members taking the designation of

"East" Kingdom very literally, and adds.

 

>Basically, yes.  For the same reason the Middle Kingdom put a Chinese

>dragon on its arms.

 

This is a bit misleading. Both the Dragon and the Pale on the arms were

intended as plays on the name "Middle Kingdom," but I cannot remember

any Chinese personae in the kingdom at the time.

 

David/Cariadoc

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Easterners in East, Chine

From: bettina.helms at channel1.com (Bettina Helms)

Date: Sat, 18 Sep 93 21:55:00 -0500

Organization: Channel 1(R) * 617-864-0100 Info * 617-354-7077 Modem

 

David/Cariadoc writes:

 

NE>This is another attempt to post the comments that have been going

NE>through as mostly blank pages. I apologise for the problem--I am

NE>trying to learn to use new posting software.

 

Apology accepted and understood. By the way, what has brought Your Grace

to Cornell University?

 

NE>In article <40.22796.1580.0NE18B20 at channel1.com> Bettina Helms,

NE>bettina.helms at channel1.com writes:

 

>>Eyewitness accounts from the early years of the East Kingdom (yes, I

>>interviewed Baron Alfgar among other people) clearly indicate ... a

>>significant *preference* for Far Eastern personae

 

NE>You exaggerate. Off hand, the only eastern easterners from the

NE>early days I can think of other than those you list were the

NE>ladies of House Hakim-- Fatima and Khadijah.

 

I cry pardon for having overlooked those two gracious ladies. :-)

 

NE>Also, I believe House Hakim was mongol persian, presumably

NE>Ilkhanid, not Moghul, although I might be mistaken.

 

At this remove, I daresay the only persons who know for sure are the

surviving members of House Hakim...who have not been seen in these parts

for many a long year. But "Moghul" was what I was told by several people

who claimed familiarity with the House and its members.

 

>>I also got sketchy accounts of the (figurative) bloodbath around

>>AS V or VI, when the controversy over whether to join the West and

>>Middle Kingoms in "the SCA, Inc." got so heated and vicious that

 

NE>If I have my dates correct, you are describing a period that

NE>included my first Eastern reign. The East was already a part of

NE>the corporation at the time--indeed, I am fairly sure it was a

NE>part of the corporation several years earlier, when the Middle

NE>Kingdom was founded as a principality of the East Kingdom.

 

I guess the accounts were even sketchier than I realized - for one

thing, I had *not* heard that the Middle Kingdom was "founded as a

principality of the East"!  :-)

 

NE>There was some unpleasantness around the time of Rakkurai's reign,

NE>but it had nothing to do with whether or not we were going to "join

NE>the West and the Middle kingdoms in the SCA, Inc."

 

It's entirely possible that my informants, who were going on their own

fallible memories, had confused two or more major controversies.

 

NE>Dorothea quotes Bettina Helms on early members taking the

NE>designation of "East" Kingdom very literally, and adds.

 

NE>Do>Basically, yes.  For the same reason the Middle Kingdom put a

NE>Do>Chinese dragon on its arms.

 

NE>This is a bit misleading. Both the Dragon and the Pale on the

NE>arms were intended as plays on the name "Middle Kingdom," but I

NE>cannot remember any Chinese personae in the kingdom at the time.

 

I presume Your Grace would have firsthand knowledge of that, and so I

will take your word for it.

 

* OLX 2.1 TD * Will the real King Arthur please return?

 

 

From: dickeney at access.digex.net (Dick Eney)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Easterners in East, Chinese in Middle?

Date: 20 Sep 1993 21:25:27 -0400

Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

 

His Grace Duke Cariadoc is correct; I joined a couple of years after the

reigns of Rakkurai and House Hakim.  In fact, my first SCA XII Night was

the one we held during King Cariadoc's second (?) reign -- down in the

basement of a church in Bhakail, at which attendance was about double

expectation and the crowding became incredible.  And my first Pennsic was

Penssic IV, alias Pennsic Puddle.  Some historians suggest this indicates a learning disability, or at least a case of schadenfreude.

 

|-- Vuong Manh (dickeney at access.digex.com) Storvik, Atlantia |

|"Everything difficult becomes easier with chocolate!"       |

 

 

From: NetID at cornell.edu (David Friedman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pennsic population

Date: 19 Sep 93 15:03:09 GMT

Organization: Cornell University

 

T. Archer writes, with regard to the Tuchux:

"But I am not comfortable with excluding the founders of

Pensic, which we seem to have taken over, by adding additional

rules to the event.  I'll certainly..."

 

To the best of my knowledge and belief, the Tuchux did not

exist when Pennsic was founded. They certainly had nothing to

do with founding it, nor were they present at Pennsic one. I

was not involved with the process by which Pennsic got moved to

its present site, so have no first-hand knowledge of whether

the Tuchux had any involvement in our finding Cooper's lake.

 

David/Cariadoc

 

 

From: David Schroeder <ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: T.I.M.E.

Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 23:12:12 -0400

Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

 

Hi folks --

 

> [Bertram] writes:

> >   Does anyone remember the

>  

> >          "*T*ournaments *I*lluminated *M*artial *E*xtravaganza" ?

>  

> Yes I do. I also remember TIME's response.

> You gotta respect restraint like that.

>  

> Pavel

> Calontir

 

The "Martial Extravaganza" issue of TI, #67 I think, was one of the

issues printed during my tenure as TI editor back in the dim distant

mists of the past (like the late '70s and early '80s).  It had TIME's

red border (mostly) and a medievally flavored version of their title

with initials separating the letters and "Tournaments Illuminated

Martial Extravaganza" appearing below in smaller print.  The bar

code in the lower lefthand corner was made of spears and polearms.

 

Just to make things clear there was never a chance of trouble from

TIME over the cover -- there's a right to parody that goes along

with freedom of expression in the U.S. MAD Magazine a year or so

later published their own TIME parody with Alfred E. Neuman as

"Idiot of the Year" or some such and MAD often imitates other

publications for humorous effect.  Had I _asked_ TIME whether

or not I could use their "look" for a parody they would have

told me "No!" but they couldn't do anything (nor would they

want to do anything) about a single-issue parody.

 

I sent a copy of the issue, as a courtesy (and to see what

reply it would prompt) to the senior editor of TIME and he

forwarded it to their counsel who entered very much into

the spirit of things and said (translating from legalese)

that once was funny, but don't do it again.  He signed

his letter "Troll of Damp Feet and Counselor of Laws..."

It was good fun...

 

    I didn't have the heart to remind the lawyer of

    the connection between "Tournaments Illuminated"

    and "Sports Illustrated..."

 

    Take care, friends -- my best -- Bertram

 

 

From: David Schroeder <ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: TI's Name

Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1993 20:01:40 -0400

Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

 

Hi folks (and especially Dorothea -- where's Hal these days?) --

 

Lord Stefan li Rous of Ansteorra asked me a question about the origins

of Tournaments Illuminated--namely--where did it get its play-on-words

with Sports Illustrated moniker.  A dim and distant memory of a con-

versation with Duke Seigfried von Hoflichskeit says that it was coined

by John de Cles, but I certainly could be wrong since I didn't join

until A.S. XI.

 

Of course, one also needs to remember such gems as "Popular Chivalry"

(the newsletter of Meridies) to get a sense of what the Society's

sense of humor was like pre-A.S. XV.

 

What would be a good name for the Society's quarterly journal if we

were naming it today, rather than twenty-five years ago? _Speculum_

is already taken...   _Better Keeps and Castles_ wasn't that funny

a dozen years ago.  _Period_ comes to mind, but it might be mistaken

for a Women's Studies or Medical journal...  

 

Any ideas, friends?

 

My best -- Bertram

 

 

From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: TI's Name

Date: 28 Oct 1993 02:35:23 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

David Schroeder  <ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:

>Hi folks (and especially Dorothea -- where's Hal these days?) --

 

He got his account turned off--office politics.

 

>Lord Stefan li Rous of Ansteorra asked me a question about the origins

>of Tournaments Illuminated--namely--where did it get its play-on-words

>with Sports Illustrated moniker.  A dim and distant memory of a con-

>versation with Duke Seigfried von Hoflichskeit says that it was coined

>by John de Cles, but I certainly could be wrong since I didn't join

>until A.S. XI.

 

I think it was probably consensus between Jon and Diana, the first

editor and illuminatrix respectively.

 

All I remember was when the first issue showed up, with that picture

of Henrik on a horse....

 

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin          Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                   UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable           djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu

 

 

From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: question

Date: 29 Oct 1993 20:57:29 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

Conor Mackaine <roaric at bu.edu> wrote:

>I have recently come accross a reference to the "Order of Wizard Lore

>of the Associated Guilds of the Society for Creative Anachronism". Can

>anyone give me any information about it?

 

Oh, yeah, the O.W.L. was the schtik of Isaac the Unlikely (a.k.a. Isaac

de la Decapole d'Alsace, m.k.a. Isaac Bonewitz) in the early days.

It certainly does not exist any more.  Isaac hasn't played with the

SCA since the early seventies, to his and our mutual relief I suspect.

 

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin          Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                   UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable           djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu

 

 

From: roaric at bu.edu (Conor Mackaine)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: question

Date: 29 Oct 1993 20:11:22 GMT

Organization: Boston University

 

greetings to all

I have recently come accross a reference to the "Order of Wizard Lore

of the Associated Guilds of the Society for Creative Anachronism".  Can

anyone give me any information about it?  The book was written in 1970,

so it wuld be from early in the society.  I don't want to raise any

hot debates over this, I am just curious about what it was and if it

still exists.  Could you please send the responses directly to me at

roaric at acs.bu.edu.

Thank you

Conor Mackaine

 

 

From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Duke on a Motorcycle

Date: 1 Nov 1993 18:11:54 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

The _original_ Duke on a Motorcycle was Master Richard of Mont Royal,

called the Short, who in late August of AS II went down to Los Angeles

to attend Westercon XX and participate in a demo, as did many of us.

He wasn't wearing his armour; he was wearing his proper leathers and

motorcycle helmet--just as well, too--and his armour and weaponry

were bundled on the back of the cycle behind him.  Well, Master Richard

fought with a great big kite-shield, and somewhere en route the wind

caught the kite like ... a kite, and blew him over onto the shoulder.

He had cuts and bruises and some broken teeth, BUT HE MADE IT TO THE

CONVENTION AND FOUGHT IN THE DEMO ANYWAY.

 

His motto in those days was "Dwarves Are Hard to Kill."

 

When it was time for him to receive the Crown for the second time

(Diana Listmaker was his Queen), he got out his cycle and borrowed

another from a friend and he and Diana rode once around the field

before riding up to their thrones.  Not terribly period in appearance,

but very perioid in intent.

 

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin          Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                   UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable           djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu

 

 

From: jtn at nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Future SCA?

Date: 3 Dec 1993 16:35:11 GMT

 

Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.

 

Responding to Bertram, Archer writes,

 

>>  o Kingdoms/principalities/households/special interest groups

>>    splitting off from the SCA and having their own events where

>>    SCA memberships are not required if fighters want to fight...

>

>I heard a rumor/urban legend that the BoD was planning to ban fencing,

>SCA-wide, some time ago, and the Crown of Atenvelt, after consulting with his

>peers, said he would take his Kingdom independant rather than ban a widely

>enjoyed practice.  Probably exaggerated or flat out false, but the fact that I

>heard it at all is evidence that this is at least in people's minds.

 

That was Ansteorra, not Atenvelt (or rather, Atenvelt may have done

something similar, but the kingdom I am aware of that did this is

Ansteorra).  Inman was king at the time; I believe it was his first

reign.  My lord has the details, but I'm at work.

 

This one isn't a legend -- or, rather, it may now be legend, but it

also happened.

 

Cheers,

 

-- Angharad/Terry

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: levey at netcom.com (Don Levey)

Subject: Re: Knightly virtues?

Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

Date: Wed, 5 Jan 1994 16:40:44 GMT

 

ALFRED at cccpp.COM (ALFRED) writes:

>          Good Carolus,

>

>          You passionately rebutt Sir John's posting:

>

>          >> Countess Elena of Beckingham ... announces that dancing

>          >> is a knightly virtue in such a fashion that the local

>          >> fighters hear it....

>          >> John Theopholis

>

>          > I disagree. Dancing is not a knightly virtue. I will go

>          > one step further, and say that *nothing* not connected

>          > to military service to the crown should ever be

>          > considered a knightly virtue.

>

>          It has long been the belief of the SCA chivalry that we are

>          trying to emulate the knights of literary romance, rather

>          than any historical model.  As such, a set of criteria,

>          albeit arbitrary, was set down some time ago as a guideline

>          for elevating candidates to the order.  This is not unlike

>          Castiglione's ideal gentleman in _The Book of the Courtier_.

>          Thus, dancing is an _SCA_ knightly virtue, regardless of its

>          relevance to historical elevation criteria.

>

><SNIP>

>

>          Alfred of Carlyle, West Kingdom

 

We must also consider: where did these literary beliefs come from,

if not from some ideal present in the society in which it arose?

I speak not only of the Victorian novels, but of in-period literature

which speaks of things such as courtly graces, courtly love, etc.

It frequently discussed with disparaging terms those who were "bad"

knights, who appeared to be men who could fight, but (implicitly)

little else (including diplomacy).  

 

Early on in the Society (I am told by one who knows), there was

a debate as to whether to create two orders of knighthood: one

for fighting and another peerage for courtly grace.  The impetus for

this was one man who was not the best fighter, but embodied all

other virtues which created the "image" of knighthood (at least

for people at this time in SCA history).  The result of this debate    

was that this man should be made a knight, because he was a knight.

Some did not see this, but many did, and many still do.

 

To some, fighting is one of the least important skills a knight

may posess.  The other virtues are what separate a knight from

a highly-trained stick jock.  Peerage, to me, is something which

places the person up as a example of what we shouldd strive to be.

I know that at least on eknight regularly asked his squires to

display their needlework, to prove their diversity. Narrowness as

an ideal will encourage narrowmindedness in our members.

 

OK, I'll get off my soapbox now.

 

-Don

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: kreyling at lds.loral.com (Ed Kreyling 6966)

Subject: Re: blunt steel weapons

Organization: Loral Data Systems

Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1993 21:30:13 GMT

 

DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman) writes:

>Brigit wrote:

>

>> I agree with Johan. I have been in the SCA for 19 years and have seen _many_

>> armor changes (standards when I joined were freon helm, kidney belt, cup and

>> _welding_ gloves). I have never seen a rule change (where blows are

>> acknowledged) or armor requirement change that was not based on safety.

>

>When I joined, shots below the knee were, I believe, illegal everywhere

>except in Atenveldt. Could someone involved in either the original decision

>in the west, or the much later decision in Atenveldt (or perhaps some of

>the Aten daughter and stepdaughter kingdoms), describe the reason? Off

 

[stuff deleted]

>David/Cariadoc

 

The story that reached eastern Atenveldt (now Meridies) when the Atenveldt

rule change occurred was that Robert Roundpounder (one of those many time

Dukes) won Crown Lyst after having a bone in his lower leg broken during the

list. His alledged statement as he was illegalizing lower leg blows was

"Anyone can break my leg, it takes someone really good to beat me"

 

Brigit

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brigit Olesdottir, OL                     |Pam Kreyling

Shire of Brineside Moor                   |Loral Data Systems

Kingdom of Trimaris                       |Sarasota, FL, USA

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Global Alert For All: Jesus is Coming Soon

Date: 19 Jan 1994 04:13:14 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

Dick Eney <dickeney at access2.digex.net> wrote:

>In article <1994Jan18.151546.2600 at news.cs.brandeis.edu>,

>David Matthew Deane <deane at binah.cc.brandeis.edu> wrote:

>>If the world ends, does that mean that all of our royalty, chivalry,

>>peerage, etc., will be freed from their vows/oaths etc? You know,

>>that part about "...or until the world ends"?

>>

>>Or is that oath only used in the West?

>>

>No; it's uused in Atlantia routinely, and in the Eastrealm the last I

>heard (about a year back).  I believe the original text was devised by

>Master Kay de la Fleur (Kent Bloom) at least ten years ago.

 

When you say "original text" do you mean "as when it was first used

in the East"?

 

Because the version used in the West dates from the Year Two; I

cobbled it out of Gondor's oath in _The Return of the King_ and a

French oath I found in some book somewhere.

 

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin          Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                          UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable           djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu

 

 

From: MCKAY_MICHAEL at atalla.tandem.COM

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Quote from the Page: Frederick of Holland

Date: 2 Feb 1994 09:48:38 -0500

 

The Page (West Kingdom Newsletter) has been running a series called "Dukes of

the West" and I thought Rialto readers might be interested in Flieg's entry

in the Febuary Page.

 

------------- Copy from Page ------------------

Part Twelve in the Dukes of the West series -- Frederick of Holland -- Azure,

a unicorn's head couped to sinister above two ovoid annulets conjoined in fess

at their smaller ends, Argent.  Frederick's first reign was as King of the

East.  His second reign was as King of the West, so he was created a Duke in

in this kingdom and is part of this list.  Frederick defeated Steingrim

Stellari in the finals at October Crown AS XV.  At the Crown Tourney during

Frederick's reign, His Majesty was given a very large quantity of mushrooms;

forty pounds or so if memory serves.  Frederick is famed for his fondness for

mushrooms.  As March Crowns tend to be, this event was quite cold and damp.

The ladies of Frederick's household made enough mushroom soup for everyone

at the event.

------------------ End of copy -------------------

 

A couple of questions Spring to mind.  When did Frederick RUE over the East?

Does he still like mushrooms (perhaps it is less legendary now)?

 

Sean MacKay (aka. MCKAY_MICHAEL at tandem.com)  Caer Darth; Darkwood; Mists; West

 

 

From: DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: reply to infamy, etc.

Date: 25 Jan 1994 14:43:35 GMT

Organization: Cornell Law School

 

gs1297 at albnyvms.bitnet writes:

 

> if someone wants to do something really wild (and this is pure

speculation)

> why doesn't someone bring up the BoD on charges in a court of Chivalry, or

> better yet a Court of Courtesy.  How Courteous or Chivalrous have their

> actions of late been, enough to warrant such action?? and would it actually

> mean anything to do so?  just wondering wildly

>

> alaric

 

About twenty years ago, when the then board transferred a substantial chunk

of the East Kingdom (most of current Meridies) to Atenveldt without asking

the crown of the East for permission, telling the East they were doing it,

or consulting the general membership in the affected area, I accused them

of base and dishonorable behavior and asked them to name a champion. They

refused. Richard Montroyal (miscalled Richard the Short--he's taller than I

am) volunteered to champion them (without their permission or

endorsement--the board's position, then as now, was that it is outside of

the medieval framework) and beat me.

--

David/Cariadoc

DDF2 at Cornell.Edu

 

 

From: mcdaniel at convex.com (Tim McDaniel)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Male to female persona

Date: 16 Feb 1994 00:56:47 GMT

Organization: Engineering, Convex Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx USA

 

qshawn mackinnon <smackinnon at mta.ca> wrote:

> I was just wondering, if it was possible for males to have female

> persona in the SCA?

 

A small historical note: in the early days of the SCA, women would

sometimes assume male personas to be able to fight.  (I read an early

SCA text on heraldic conflict checking saying that "Since we will never

see a woman on the field of honor, we need not worry as much about

heraldic conflict between ...".)  The rules of the list changed long

ago, though.

 

I've occasionally seen women in men's clothing at SCA events, but I

don't recall seeing men in women's clothing.  Much like modern society,

come to think of it ...

 

> And who should you talk to before going to an event cross gendered.

 

The SCA is pretty accepting.  In general, most people don't care about

what you're wearing, and the few that do generally won't say anything to

you about it (though they may, alas, make snide remarks behind one's

back about the quality of one's research, fabric, or sewing skills).

 

You don't *need* any approval.  I suggest that you just do it very well.

--

Tim McDaniel, Convex Computer Corporation, Richardson, TX (near Dallas)

If mcdaniel at convex.com fails, try mcdaniel at convex.convex.com or

   mcdaniel at mozart.convex.com

 

 

From: julifolo at ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (watkins julia k)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Historical oddities of the Midrealm

Date: 15 Feb 1994 06:40:48 GMT

Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

 

corliss at hal.PHysics.wayne.EDU (David J. Corliss) writes:

>Dorothy Heydt wrote:

 

> > Don't forget the guy who won the Crown of the Midrealm and hocked it.

> > I've always wanted to hear more about that.....

 

>As I understand the story, the person in question felt that, since he was King,

>the Crown was his personal property and could be disposed of as he saw fit.

>The metal Crown was recovered but all the stones had been removed and sold.

>It was restored, with one setting remaining empty to this day in memory.

 

                                                                                                                                                                                          Beorthwine

                                                                                                                                                                                           

This was, of course, the infamous Michael of BoarsHaven who had the

misfortune, to quote Richard d'Alsace (then MidRealm seneschal), of

reading THE CORPORA and believing it. To make a long story short,

Michael was a contentious king, who feuded with his queen, his knights,

the king before him and the king after him. His queen, Zarina Daeth,

abdicated when she couldn't take his attitudes anymore, and he abdicated,

hoping that--as was indicated by CORPORA--he would inconvenience the

Middle Kingdom by forcing them to have a crown tournament to cover the

month of April. This, of course, proved unfeasible, and we who were

on the MidRealm curia merely signed a proclamation stating that Albert,

the tanist, was King. Albert and his princess were later crowned, but

he reigned for a couple months as uncrowned king (including at the

Society Decennial).

 

Michael was angered by this and, accordingly, refused to return the

Crowns and the files of the Kingdom. Albert filed a suit against

Michael (in small claims court), and Michael counter-sued. This

farce went on through two appearances in court, after which Michael's

lawyer (who was giving him free advice) quit. Michael then called

Albert and said he was tired of the whole situation and to come and

get the crowns. Albert did, and Michael called the police to say

that Albert had just stolen his crowns. Everything was worked out,

and the states attorney essentially told us all that he didn't want

to hear anything more about this.

 

During the time Michael had the crowns, he and his roommate apparently

played football with them and pried out one of the gems to see if

it was worth any money (it wasn't). When Albert received the crown,

he commanded that it never be repaired and that future kings and queens

be shown the crowns and told the sad story of Michael. (BTW, Michael's

claim was that the crowns, etc. had been given to him and that he had

never been told they belonged to the SCA)

 

More of the story of Michael is available in our BRIEF HISTORY OF THE

MIDDLE KINGDOM, TALES OF THE MIDLANDS KINGS and TRUE HISTORY OF WURM

WALD. I was, BTW, a close friend of Michael's and was happy to see

him the last time we happened to meet. Unfortunately, he should never

have been King (he won his crown when he had been a member for only

about a year). At the risk of sounding allegorically political, in

the beginning of his reign, Michael felt that what he was doing he

was doing for the good of the Society.

 

Yrs, Damin de Folo

Who Was There

 

 

From: mabr at sweden.hp.com (Morgan "the Dreamer" Broman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Trading Cards (Drachenwald)

Date: 25 Feb 1994 12:42:05 GMT

Organization: HP/SCA/SKA/FSTS/AMTS/SLRP/ETC Sweden

 

MMS6824 at tntech.EDU wrote:

:Just to keep everyone up to date:

 

:His Most gracious Majesty, Morgan of Drachenwald:

:>     My dear Lady, would you want the complete set, with Princes and all

:>or just the Kings and Queens. I'm sorry to say that I will be a duplicate

:>if you want them all.... ;) ?

:>     The price is definitely negotiable. If MyLady is planning to attend

:>Pennsic this year, then maybe we can work something out....!

:>Order of preference for suggested methods of payment are :

:>     Hugs

:>     Songs

:>     Stories

:>     Backrubs

:>     Chocolate-chip cookies

:>     (Booze), unless it is Captain Morgans Spiced Rum !!!!!

 

:Good and Gentle King Morgan,

 

:      What an offer you propose. My original thought was just the Kings and

:Queens, however, now that you mention the others...., and surely a duplicate of

:yourself cannot be a bad thing.  

 

        Thank you my Lady, though I doubt the entire Known World would agree

with your kind assessment.... Some people would probably rather freeze to

death than have two of Yours Truly around... ;)

 

:      I will most definitely be at Pennsic, residing with my family, Clann

:Kyle.  Perchance, will you be doing the negotiating yourself, or will you send a

:representative?  I would hate to be giving valuable hugs to representative to

:pass along.  Not to mention the very delicate process of determining the price

:of each royal couple.  The process could take a great deal of time on both of

:our parts.

:Your's in service - Marian

 

        I must say that the determination of the price would in this case

be entirely up to Mylady. It would not cross my mind to embarrass a Lady

by haggling (sp?) over the price....honour forbid... ;) !

 

        As far as the Royal couples goes I think there are 26 Princes

and Pricessess, 2 Kings and Queens so far....hm...28 couples all in

all...

 

Princees & Princesses             Personal Notes

=====================             ==============

 

Jahn & Tuiren (AS XV)

Bearengaer & Nige (AS XV)

David & Catheryn

Dorin & Catheryn

Raim & Regina

Wolf & Catriona

Alexander & Katya

Galen & Kaylitha

Raim & Gwynna

Dafydd & Morgan

Richard & Joedda (AS XX)

Wulfbrand & Lucilla (AS XX

Justin & Gyth

Ulric & Eleonora

Ivar & Kathleen

Gwenllhian & Stefan

Axel & Jean-Maire

Ian & Charitee

Yoshina & Evonne

Bryon & Silesia

Karl & Bettina (XXV)

Cian & Catherine (XXV)

Morgan & Alienor

Myles & Katharina

Gareth & Idunn

Karl & Leia

 

Kings & Queens

==============

Elffin & Vanna

Morgan & Alienor

 

That's the list.... ;)

 

Ciao

Morgan//

Who think we should never forget why we do this !!! ;) ;) ;)

 

--

HP   : Morgan Broman                             mabr at sweden.hp.com

SCA  : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag

APD-I: Shade

Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

From: pattie at harry.lloyd.com (Pattie McGregor)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Showing the Society in a "bad light"

Date: 4 Mar 1994 22:50:50 -0800

Organization: A BARRnet customer

Summary: where the publications policy came from

 

My news software has spooled this and lost it twice. I hope

this isn't a repeat for anyone.  s.

========================================

 

Good Gentles:

 

Several folks have recently been asking questions about this passage from

the correspondence from TRM of the Middle about Newsletters and TI.

Many have asked about how the publications policy came into existence

which allows this sort of thinking to be validated by policy.

>

>>T.I., more than any other publication, represents all that the

>>Society has to offer - it justifies our charter, and exhibits our

>>policies. All of the SCA publications are major PR tools that reach

>>public libraries, schools, and museums. Because of such contact with

>>"mundane society" - it violates the Society Chronicler's policies to

>>publish editorials or advertisements which show the SCA in a bad

>>light. (It is like airing dirty laundry.) It is not the Board trying

>>to censor, it is a long established policy enacted to protect the SCA

>>from outside criticism. If you have any questions about this policy

>>contact either the Kingdom Chronicler or the Society Chronicler.

 

Mea Culpa. I'm the original culprit.

 

In the original Publications Policy, which I wrote (with lots of help

from other Chroniclers and the then-steward), there is a directive that

nothing in the newsletters should show the SCA in a bad light.

 

At that time we worried about drunkenness, paganism, sex, etc.

"Sweet buns" and "Wet chemise" contests were rampant, as were statements

such as "This site is dry; if you must bring alcohol, keep it hidden." Our

standard was to not offend the father of a 16-year old girl

who asked to  go to an event, or the postal worker who thumbed through

a newsletter before delivering it.

 

I did not expect it to be used to  squash dissenting viewpoints. Silly me,

expecting my values to be carried throughout a rational, thinking organization.

 

Personally, I think an active discussion about the organization

of the organization is a sign of health, but I'm no longer in a

position to do anything about that.  :-(

 

   siobhan

===========================================================================

Siobhan Medhbh O'Roarke

  Sharing her time between Crosston &                 3060 Ridgeline Drive

  Golden Rivers                                         Rescue, CA 95672

  pat at cygnus.com                                       (916) 677-6607

  siobhan at lloyd.com                                     (415) 903-1448 (days)

 

 

From: masc0575 at ucssun1.sdsu.edu (C. Kevin Kellogg)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: mc.lcs.mit.edu

Date: 3 Mar 1994 19:19:20 GMT

Organization: San Diego State University Computing Services

 

David Friedman (DDF2 at cornell.edu) wrote:

: > Corpora doesn't forbid

: > surfer Laurels today, but I've never heard of one. Have you?

 

: No, but I am fairly sure that a kingdom in Southern California that will

: remain nameless gave a laurel for photography. It was a long time ago.

 

        Yes, your Grace, Caid did indeed do this, many, many years ago.

We've regreted it ever since.  We won't ever do it again. We promise,

really. Cross our hearts. Nope, not us. :-)

 

: David/Cariadoc

: DDF2 at Cornell.Edu

 

                              Avenel Kellough

 

 

 

From: paulb at saturn.uark.edu (Paul A. Byers)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: oak spears?

Date: Mon, 28 Mar 1994 08:59:35

Organization: University of Arkansas

 

jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray) writes:

 

>In the "lawsuit" thread I saw a mention of oak spears being banned in

>SCA combat on safety grounds. I'm curious as we fight with metal

 

The problem with hardwood spears was that they hit too hard. At a Pensic

Duchess Sif of Ansteorra was hit hard enough to cause a bruse in the sack that

surrounds the heart. (was a bad  thing!)  A SCA MD wrote the BOD that he would

be willing to testify against SCA Inc.

 

The fiberglass spears don't hit as hard as the old oak ones. (though the 'D'

bucket handled ones come close.

 

Pavel

Calontir

 

 

From: DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: no quarterstaffs

Date: 2 Apr 1994 03:11:29 GMT

Organization: Cornell Law School

 

I cannot speak for any other kingdom, but the original reason for banning

quarterstaff in the Middle was safety. I do not know if we were right--we

knew less then than we know now, and we don't know very much now--but that

was the reason. As I recall, we tried swinging one at a tree, and decided

none of us wanted to be the tree.

 

David/Cariadoc

DDF2 at Cornell.Edu

 

 

From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: f&sf writers in the SCA (was re:authenticity)

Date: 18 Apr 1994 16:35:53 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

TRISTAN CLAIR DE LUNE/KEN MONDSCHEIN <v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu> wrote:

>      Also, don't forget Robert Asprin (Yang the Nauseating) and our very

>own Dorothea of Caer Myrdinn (sp?). And, it goes without saying, Diana

 

Caer-Myrddin, actually.

 

>Listmaker (Diana Paxson) and Marion Zimmer Bradley (who's SCA name escapes me).

>See? All the nifty people are in the club.

 

Don't forget the Society sprouted out of fandom.  The way Diana

tells it begins,

 

        Once upon a time there was a scholar who lived in an

        ivory tower. In that tower lived many other scholars who

        spent their days reading books and writing papers about

        what another scholar had said another scholar had said

        ANOTHER scholar had said they used to do in the Middle Ages.

 

        But the scholar of whom I speak was more fortunate, for

        she sometimes left the ivory tower and went down into

        the town, where she had friends of a most uncommon sort,

        who played a game called fandom....

 

The original members of the Society fell into two categories: (a)

fandom (b) people who saw the flyer and were interested enough to

follow it up.  Most of these were far enough out that they would've

been in fandom if they'd ever heard of it.

 

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin          Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                   UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable           djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu

 

 

From: DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Duke Angus's trial - result

Date: 12 Apr 1994 04:28:51 GMT

Organization: Cornell Law School

 

Bettina Helms writes

> But what I was

> trying to say was that 1) Rakkurai has an evil reputation (deserved or

> otherwise) and 2) he's part of East Kingdom history regardless of what

> anybody thinks of him or says about him

 

I wonder if 1 is true, or if it reflects the particular people you happen

to have talked with. Rakkurai got involved in a very messy feud with his

ex-friend (I think ex-squire) Shlomo ben Shlomo, which was very unfortunate

for the kingdom, since people tended to take sides. But I would not have

said that he was a spectacularly bad king, and am curious as to whether he

has really attained that status in EK folklore.

 

Incidentally, I encountered Barry Green (Rakkurai) within the last year or

so--he seemed to be fine, and not obviously hiding from anyone.

--

David/Cariadoc

DDF2 at Cornell.Edu

 

 

From: Bettina.Helms at f38.n112.z1.interphase.com (Bettina Helms)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Duke Angus's trial - result

Date: Sat, 16 Apr 1994 00:01:38 -0500

 

-=> Quoting David Friedman to All <=-

 

DF> Bettina Helms writes

 

> But what I was

> trying to say was that 1) Rakkurai has an evil reputation (deserved or

> otherwise) and 2) he's part of East Kingdom history regardless of what

> anybody thinks of him or says about him

 

DF> I wonder if 1 is true, or if it reflects the particular people you

DF> happen to have talked with....

 

It is definitely true that Rakkurai has an evil reputation among people

who get their history at second and third hand (as everyone does who

wasn't there at the time). It is not necessarily true that he *deserves*

it - only his close acquaintances know that for sure. And it is quite

true that he is and always will be part of East Kingdom history -

although the slant applied may not be accurate or deserved either.

 

DF> But I would not have said that he was a spectacularly bad king, and

DF> am curious as to whether he has really attained that status in EK

DF> folklore.

 

Yes, Your Grace, he has. You of all people should know how the "folk

processing" of history works, since you are widely remembered as "the

king who declared war on himself - and lost". This even though you had

left the throne of the Middle by the time you moved to the East, and did

not win Crown in the East until after you had presented the war arrow

(to Rakkurai, as a matter of fact). It makes a better story the other

way, so that's the way it gets told.

 

Rakkurai is remembered as having by far the longest reign of any king of

the East (although I believe the records show that Murad's was slightly

longer), and as having tried to avoid handing over the crown by refusing

to hold a Crown Tourney and/or repeatedly postponing it (which may not

be true in the least, since early Crowns were held at *highly* irregular

intervals). It makes a more dramatic story that way.

 

... 100

* Origin: The Writer's Block, Jacksonville FL * 904/399-8854 (1:112/38.0)

 

 

From: memorman at happy.uccs.edu

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: re: list of notables

Date: 9 May 94 17:41:22 MDT

Organization: University of Colorado at Boulder

 

arval disputes my identification of karina of the far west

(karen anderson) as the original laurel queen at arms (perhaps

better to say, the first laurel sovreign at arms.  while

this may well be true, my memories go back very specifically

to as ten when she was running submissions nearly single-

handedly and average time to get a device passed was in

years not months. wilhelm took over soon after that and

streamlined/reorganized the process.  if karina was not

the first head of the college of heralds, does anyone know

who was?

 

elaina de sinistre, o.p.  currently of the outlands

--

*******************************************************************

* memorman at uccs.edu

* mary morman

* university of colorado, colorado springs

******************************************************************

 

 

From: locksley at indirect.com (Joe Bethancourt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: list of notables

Date: 10 May 1994 07:52:30 GMT

 

memorman at happy.uccs.edu wrote:

: arval disputes my identification of karina of the far west

: (karen anderson) as the original laurel queen at arms (perhaps

: better to say, the first laurel sovreign at arms.  while

: this may well be true, my memories go back very specifically

: to as ten when she was running submissions nearly single-

: handedly and average time to get a device passed was in

: years not months. wilhelm took over soon after that and

: streamlined/reorganized the process.  if karina was not

: the first head of the college of heralds, does anyone know

: who was?

 

: elaina de sinistre, o.p.  currently of the outlands

 

Hm! Master Harold of Breakstone was the -first- Laurel Sovereign of Arms.

He is male. I was the second. I am male. Karina was the third. She is

-female-, and thus the first -female- LSoA.

--

locksley at indirect.com           PO Box 35190       Locksley Plot Systems

White Tree Productions      Phoenix, AZ 85069 USA         CyberMongol Ltd

 

 

From: locksley at indirect.com (Joe Bethancourt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Heralds, Past and Present

Date: 10 May 1994 07:55:40 GMT

 

memorman at happy.uccs.edu wrote:

: Regarding the history of heralds in the SCA:

 

: "locksley at indirect.com" has kindly given us Harold of Breakstone as

: the first Laurel King at Arms.  Does he or anyone else know when?  I

: have numerous very fond memories of Randall of Hightower in both the

: SCA and fandom, but none of them involve a word of heraldry, so this

: information comes as a surprise to me.  Was he the second Laurel King

: at Arms - or simply an assistant to Harold of Breakstone?  If he wasn't

: the second sovreign as arms, who was?  When did Karina become Laurel

: Queen at arms?  

 

See previous message.....Randall (may he rest in peace!) was Clarion KoA

under Harold of Breakstone, and served as his assistant.

 

: I seem to remember - from the ancient past - a time when those who

: wanted SCA arms were told that they had to pass not only the SCA heralds

: but some official heraldic body in England.  Is my imagination playing

: tricks on me, or was this indeed the "word" in A.S. 5, 6, 7 or so?

 

They had to pass as "not resembling anything used in mundane heraldry,"

but that was about it.

 

: incidently, is "locksley at indirect.com" joseph of locksley?

 

None other than the infamous Ioseph indeed! (note spelling...) <grin!>

 

Who is still grumpy.

--

locksley at indirect.com           PO Box 35190       Locksley Plot Systems

White Tree Productions      Phoenix, AZ 85069 USA         CyberMongol Ltd

 

 

From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: SCA's Own History

Date: 29 May 1994 15:18:52 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

(Hal posting from Dorothy's account...)

In article <CqJ0G5.Mo3 at oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu>,

Craig Martin Levin <clevin at oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu> wrote:

>I have just finished reading Daniel Grotta's bio of Tolkien, and I

>found a curious reference to something that has to have been the

>earliest incarnation of the SCA. I quote _verbatim_ from pg. 138 of

>his work, _The_ _Biography_ _of_ _JRR_ _Tolkien_, _Architect_ _of_

>_Middle_ _Earth_:

>

>"Once _The_ _Lord_ _of_ _the_ _Rings_ achieved widespread

>popularity, a large number of Middle-earth <sic> spinoffs emerged

>both in America and England. For example, in Southern California,

>one hundred and fifty Tolkien fans gathered in a park to celebrate

>Bilbo's birthday, under the auspices of Diana Paxton <sic>, a

>graduate student who organized "The Elves, Gnomes and Little Men

>Science Fiction and Fantasy Chowder and Marching Society." <!>

>Everyone came dressed as a character from Tolkien and honored Bilbo

>with games, Elvish songs, mock battles, hobbit cookies, and

>malt cider. The picnic was so successful that those present decided

>to hold another festival in the spring, ostensibly to celebrate the

>destruction of the Ring. It too was in costume, and included a

>mushroom roll contest and a formal ceremony in which a mock ring was

>burned in a fire."

 

My what a garbled and confused account....

 

1.  "Bilbo's Birthday" is usually considered to be Sept. 22nd.

 

2.  The original party that started the SCA was May 1, 1966.

 

3.  The Elves, Gnomes and Little Men's Science Fiction Chowder

and Marching Society still meets in Berekeley.  It pre-dates the

SCA by many years.  The Little Men used to (probably still do)

give out an annual award called the Invisible Little Man. It's a

pedestal with engraved plaque on the front and a pair of

footprints on top.  Standing on the pedestal is a an Invisible

Little Man made from the very finest invisible bronze. There

was, at one time, a consderable overlap between active SCA

members and active Little Mens members.  Especially in the days

when the Little Men met in J. Ben Stark's basement (mid- to

late-sixties).

 

4.  The West Kingdom used to hold its Fall Crown Tourney as close

to Bilbo's Birthday as possible.  As the fantasy elements thinned,

the emphasis changed to holding it as close as possible to the

Fall Equinox.  From various factors over the years, it is now

held in early October.  (Other West Kingdom Crown/Coronation

events are:  March Crown--Vernal Equinox, Beltane

Coronation--May, 1 [founding date and Beltane], June

Crown--Summer Solstice,  August Prurgatorio Coronation--late

August, 12th Night--6 January/12th Night.)

 

>Some comments-between the 2, they seem to be like events-A&S

>competition, subtleties at feast, fighting, filking, everyone in

>garb, etc. I like the name, but it doesn't have that nice ring that

>'SCA' has about it. Is Grotta an old-timer of the SCA? Were these 2

>parties for real? Are we really members of the E, G, and LM SF and F C

>and M Society?

 

The author seems to have conflated the origins of the SCA, the

Little Men, and the Mythopoeic Society.  This appears to be an

object lesson in not believing everything you read.

 

        --Hal Ravn

         (Hal Heydt)

 

 

From: sandradodd at aol.com (SandraDodd)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Resigning peerages

Date: 16 Jun 1994 01:13:00 -0400

 

mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval d'Espas Nord) misquoted me; or rather

quoted someone else and attributed it to me.

 

It's of minor importance.  

 

As far as I know the history of that policy (and Signy / Tracy Brown

reminded me by e-mail that it was in effect when she was on the

board, which was before I was a corporate officer, or right as I

became one, long time ago) it was in response to Atenveldt knights who

performed such exciting feats as declaring they were now masters and

putting their belts on as baldrics; wearing their chains in their

belts; and the greatest of all:  throwing a chain in a fire

dramatically, only to sober up the next morning and come fishing in

the ashes.  I don't know a particular name to stick to it, if there

was one, and it's likely there were stories in other kingdoms, but I

think if a guy claimed to quit, and witnesses felt he had, it didn't

prevent a person later from saying he had been made a peer and

therefor was one.  I do NOT know, though, why the obstacle course of

letters to three places.  

 

AElflaed

 

 

From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: What The Eric IS

Date: 27 Jun 1994 19:12:18 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

Harold Kraus Jr <harald at ksu.ksu.edu> wrote:

 

>["Eric"] is regional.  The only Calontiri I ever heard use it was

>HG William V'tavia (Humpk).  Pavel calls me a "Westie" when

>I use it.

>

>What were the four colors of the original "eric"?

 

Red, white, and yellow; only over time they all faded to an

anonymous uniform grey.  There wasn't any fourth.

>

>"Eric" is a SCAdianism, "list" is period (isn't it?).

 

Right on both counts.

 

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin          Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                   UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable            djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu

PRO DEO ET REGE

 

 

From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Restructuring Proposal

Date: 11 Jul 1994 21:08:48 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

(Hal posting from Dorothy's account...)

In article <773765559.F00001 at ocitor.fidonet>,

Tim of Angle <Tim.of.Angle at f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org> wrote:

>Find the board member who has not been a

>peer since the BoD came into existence.

 

Trivially easy.  *None* of the current Directors were in the

Society before incorporation--let alone Peers to the best of my

knowledge.

 

Can you show that any of them predate incorporation of the SCA?

 

The last Director I know of that was a Peer before the existence

of the Board was Dave Thewlis (Duke Siegfried von Hoeflichkeit)

who is a dinosaur (i.e. he was at the party in Diana's back

yard).

 

        --Hal Ravn

         (Hal Heydt)

 

 

From: mchance at crl.com (Michael A. Chance)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: The more things change...

Date: 24 Aug 1994 06:26:59 -0700

 

Ianthe d'Averoigne writes:

>     I pose a point for general discussion:

 

>     How has the SCA changed over time, especially since

>     AS X?

 

For me, there have been two major changes in the nearly 14 years that

I've played (starting in the southwestern Midrealm in AS 16):

 

First, the good:  A much higher level of re-creation in most areas.

We've managed to get a tremendous amount of research and information

into the SCA over the years.  New member costumes that would have been

acceptable when I started aren't now; you'd be quickly hustled over to

the Gold Key's loaner closet (which also didn't exist, for the most

part, 10 or 15 years ago).  While there are still the really awful

looking stuff (clothes, armor, heraldry, feast gear, general kit,

etc.), it's becoming more and more outlier as the overall level of

authenticity has risen.  It's a slow process, but it's happening.

 

Second, the bad:  In this area, at least, it's nearly impossible to

find a "small" (75 persons or less) event, especially if it's on the

kingdom calendar in the newsletter.  I have some of my fondest

memories from my early years of such events, with perhaps only a few

peers in attendance, and more time for fun and talk.  It's too bad

that new, small groups get swamped at their first few events by lots

of "helpful" neighbors trying to "help make it a successful event" by

boosting the attendance to 150+, when they'd be a lot more comfortable

hosting much less than 100.

 

Mikjal Annarbjorn

--

Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA   "At play in the fields

Work: mc307a at sw1stc.sbc.com                             of St. Vidicon"

Play: mchance at crl.com

      mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Address List Selling?

From: schuldy at zariski.harvard.edu (Mark Schuldenfrei)

Date: 20 Aug 94 12:37:01 EDT

 

nsmca at aurora.alaska.edu writes:

  Is the SCA ED selling mailing lists?

  Addresses and such?

 

Oh, geez, why not ask an inflammatory question, eh? (:-)

 

The Society has, in the past, made membership lists available to officers,

as well as having provided them with membership lists that contain

addresses. There is a $3 charge for those lists, but some officers claim

they received them unsolicited, and for free.

 

To the best of my knowledge, they were always provided to officers only,

although with no formal restrictions on use. It was always assumed that they

would be used for correct purposes only.

 

Since I became a member around 1984, The Society has sold the mailing list

one time, to MBNA in order to promote an affinity credit card.  I gather

that the Corporation has since switched its stance, and is now trying to end

that contract.  The list has not yet been delivered.

 

It has been ordered by the court to make the mailing list available to

members involved in impeachment petitions, for use in direct mailings to

members of petitions and supporting documents.  Of course that litigation is

still active.

 

I have heard tales of how the membership list had been "pirated" once a very

long time ago, and used for a direct mailing for encyclopedia sales, but I

gather that was done when the Society was much smaller, done without the

knowledge of the Board, and punished.  Some controls over the mailing list

were created at that time.  I have no further details, and heard this from

only one source, if a reliable one.

 

I think that, given the litigation over the membership list, the current

Executive Directors response to that litigation, and the attempt to reverse

the MBNA sale that has been reported informally, that the chances of anyone

getting a mailing list out of the SCA Incorporated right now are slim to

none.  We shall see, however.

 

        Tibor

--

Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy at math.harvard.edu)

 

<the end>



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