SCA-hist2-msg - 8/20/94
Messages on the history of the SCA from 3/93 until 8/94.
NOTE: See also the files: SCA-hist1-msg, SCA-hist3-msg, SCA-stories1-msg, vanity-plates-msg, placenames-msg, Hst-SCA-Fence-art, you-know-msg.
************************************************************************
NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************
"History is a moving target that changes as fresh details are discovered, as errors are corrected, as popular attitudes shift. Historians carve the sculpture that is Truth not out of granite, but out of wet clay."
- From the preface to "The Life of Muad'Dib" in the Dune series.
-----
From: PB06098 at uafsysb.uark.EDU (Paul Byers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Fighting Hamsters
Date: 12 Mar 1993 05:06:46 -0500
The Calontir song of fighting hamsters is written for me. (large grin and
swelling of breast!)
Back at pensic 12, or was it 13? anyway, In those days I fought with a duck
taped hamster on my helm. (plastic, sword and shield, brown.) That was the year I introed the Calon shield wall. I was the center scutum, anchoring the whole line. All my secondarys were females. All through the different assaults they would hit my hamster with their pommels. hamster would squeak, they would giggle, I would yell/whine 'girls! Please!' and the foe sore confused.
later in the war a great sword blew the poor hamster off my helm. We recovered
him and got him drunk. After that for a few years most of the calon army wore
hamsters on or in their helms. I still have my original hamster somewhere.
Enough. If you want to hear more E-mail me while I'm at a real editor.
Pavel (still in combat with the dual demons NDIS and ODI!)
Calontir
From: cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic Titles
Date: 15 Mar 1993 17:02:57 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Tim at f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) writes:
> I've wondered the same -- I wonder even more at the "chronicler" being a
> Great Officer of State; ....
Once upon a time it wasn't. In the days when Hal and I were Chroniclers
for the West, it was a Lesser Office under the Seneschal. And a good
thing too, because it meant that Hal and I had the Seneschal, Sir William
the Lucky, running interference between us and Jon de Cles, the Steward
from Hell, who lived just up the hill from us. But that's another story.
On the other hand, in those days Lesser Officers didn't swear fealty, and
Laurels and Pelicans didn't swear fealty, so that Hal and I never had a
chance to do so until we had dropped out (during the years when the kids
were too rambunctious to take to tourneys) and dropped back in again and
the rules had changed meanwhile. So you win some and you lose some....
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu
From: cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: O.P.....?
Date: 15 Mar 1993 17:34:46 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
sclark at epas.utoronto.CA (Susan Clark) writes:
> Trivial question: is "O.P." an accepted abbreviation for "Order
> of the Pelican"?
Yes.
You see, it means something different to me:
> namely, it is the accepted abbreviation for the Order of Preachers
> (ordo predicatoris), otherwise known as the Dominican Friars.
You bet. Which is why, when the Order of the Pelican was just getting
into the swing of things, many people who hadn't minded "O.L." got
worried about how confused other people might get about "O.P." and
suggested Pelicans should be described as "Companions of the Pelican,"
abbreviated "C.P.", and tried to back-adapt the other Orders to say
"Companion" too.
"Companions of the Pelican" sounds to me rather like that Blackfox
cartoon where the new Pelican (the SCA kind) is sitting on the dock
with a bunch of pelicans (the bird kind) discussing fish and stuff.
But then, I am a Westie....
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Subject: Re: Creative Barbarism, Cloved Fruit, Stephen and Matilda
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1993 04:22:01 GMT
"The story I heard was that Yang and some fencing buddies went to an
SCA event for the first time, bearing more live steal than the rest
of the kingdom (midrealm, I believe) possessed at that time. Anyway,
the story is that they were not too kindly received, and formed the
Horde as a way of participating in the SCA while avoiding the more
stodgy old-guard types."
(David the Fretful)
I am not sure what counts as stodgy old-guard types; at the time you
are describing the kingdom was less than two years old. So far as I
can tell, Yang wanted to participate in the SCA without being in
allegiance to the King of the Middle, and formed the Horde as a way
of doing so. I think part of the idea was to provide a symbolic enemy
for the kingdom, as a way of creating useful competition--"we are
braver/cleverer/more honorable than you, and if you don't believe it
prove we are wrong by being brave/clever/honorable." At least, that
was the way I read his purpose at the time, and I cannot see any
later evidence that I was wrong.
I do not think that authenticity had anything to do with it, in
either direction--which is why I took issue with your previous post.
David/Cariadoc
From: andrewt at csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Andrew Terrance Trembley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Creative Barbarism, Cloved Fruit, Stephen and Matilda
Date: 8 Apr 1993 01:40:35 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
From deane at binah.cc.brandeis.edu (David Matthew Deane):
> formal structure of the SCA. Now, the story I was told was that there was some
> friction between Yang and his friends, and those who were running things in the
> Midrealm when they joined the SCA. Doubtless this has been exaggerated in the
> telling. Or perhaps it is entirely ficticious. But I didn't mean to say that
Well, I have it on good authority (Lady Fey, I can hardly pronounce her full
name, much less spell it, of Zenith Pages School in Caer Anterth Mawr,
ex-tarkahn, and Grand Old Lady of the Dark Horde) that when Yang joined SCA,
it was because he and some of his fencing buddies thought they were going to
show these SCA folk (Northwoods) what real swordfighting was. As it turned
out, they did really well in the tourney. However, their "garb" was the
same color as the then Baron of Northwood's colors, and he got a little
miffed. I can get better details if I can talk Fey into writing the whole
story down.
Basically, if I have the story right, the whole Horde was improvised on the
spot for entertainment value, and slowly but surely took on a life of its
own.
as always, I'm...
Andries de Hoog
--
as always, I'm... Andy Trembley andrewt at csd4.csd.uwm.edu
From: KGANDEK at mitvmc.mit.EDU (Kathryn Gandek)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Tuchux at Coopers
Date: 11 Apr 1993 16:08:03 -0400
I can't make any authoritative statements about who discovered Cooper's Lake as
a site, but I can cite one early use of Cooper's by SCA and Tuchux before it
was ever used as the site for the Pennsic War. Back in the reign of Asbjorn
and Brekka (the reign in which Pennsic IV occurred), the King's Champion
Tourney was held at Cooper's Lake. My husband drove out there with Asbjorn
and has a very vivid memory of qualifying several tuchux fighters, including
a tuchux fighter with a prosthetic leg. As many people on the Rialto (but not
myself) can cite from personal experience, Pennsic IV was deluged by rain at
someplace other than Cooper's Lake.
So, somebody in the Pittsburgh area - be they SCA or Tuchux - discovered
Cooper's Lake was a neat site to hold an event. And, presumably, at some later
point it dawned on someone that it was a good place for the Pennsic War. I
don't know who was there first, but both the SCA and Tuchux were there before
the Pennsic War was.
Catrin o'r Rhyd For Kathryn Gandek-Tighe
Barony of Carolingia Boston area
East Kingdom kgandek at mit.edu
From: cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Only a Knight can make a Knight
Date: 16 Apr 1993 23:06:29 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
WILLIS%EIVAX at ualr.EDU (Brandr) writes:
> ...knights of the SCA have a direct lineage from the knight
> templars through Masonic Orders. He stated it was because
> the first knight of the SCA was a knight templar of the
> Masons.
Uh, I don't _think_ it was Masons. Siegfried von Hoflichskei (David
Thewlis) and Fulk de Wyvern (Ken deMaiffe) had been knighted--whether I
should surround that with quotes, I honestly don't know--by somebody
they met in Europe. When they got back to the States, they knighted
(same disclaimer) some of their friends, e.g., Jon deCles (Donald
Studebaker). At the first tourney in Diana's back yard, Ardral Argo
verKaeysc (David Bradley) fought well enough that they knighted him
on the spot. Then at Twelfth Night, year Two (was it Two? I think
so...) Siegfried knighted whoever was King at the time (William the
Silent?) and he knighted everybody else (including Fulk and Siegfried
and Jon), "bootstrapping the Order," as Siegfried later put it.
The attitude that "only a knight can make a knight" dates back at least
that far.
I have a very old book of West Kingdom history at home; I'll look some
of this stuff up and post some of the names and dates.
But whether this guy in Europe was a templar, a Mason, a "real" knight,
a fantasy knight, or just a figment of somebody's imagination, I haven't
a clue. Maybe someday I'll run into Siegfried again and remember to
ask him.
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu
From: cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Only a Knight can make a Knight
Date: 19 Apr 1993 02:31:17 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Pegasus at aaa.uoregon.edu (LaurieEWBrandt) writes:
> cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu wrote:
>>
>> WILLIS%EIVAX at ualr.EDU (Brandr) writes:
>>
>> > ...knights of the SCA have a direct lineage from the knight
>> > templars through Masonic Orders. ....
>>
>> Uh, I don't _think_ it was Masons. ....
>> I have a very old book of West Kingdom history at home; I'll look some
>> of this stuff up and post some of the names and dates.
>
>Could some one in An Tir Barony of Three Mountians ask Sir Jamie of the
>Oakenshield who was knighted in Jan 6 as 2 [1968] about the truth of the
>matter?
Oh, is Sir Jamie still active (or active again)? How nice. Yes, he
was one of the seven knights from Twelfth Night, AS 2. I have my book
here and the other six were Bela of Eastmarch, Fulk de Wyvern, Karl vom
Acht, Kerry the Rock, Siegfried von Ho"flichskeit, and Steven of the
Ashenlands. Edwin Bersark and Richard of Mont Real were made Masters-
of-Arms, and Alfonso de Castile and Beverly Hodghead Masters of the
Laurel. It was quite a night. I helped write the ceremonies, including
the Oath of Fealty (borrowed mostly from Tolkien) which is still used in
the West Kingdom to this day.
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu
From: David Schroeder <ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA Geography
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1993 11:56:40 -0400
Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Good Bjalfi and readers --
My favorite SCA geographical puzzler is:
Q: What was the first kingdom in the SCA?
A: The answer, surprisingly, is "The East"
The West, of course, is earlier, but evidently
referred to itself as "The Society" or "The Mistlands"
and only became "The West Kingdom" when there was an
East Kingdom for contrast... At least that's what I
heard from Seigfried von Hoflichtkeit.
Another might ask why, geographically, the Midrealm's kingdom
newsletter was called "The Pale" ? It seems the "original"
Middle Kingdom stretched all the way down to New Orleans and
therefore the Midrealm formed a pale on the vaguely shieldlike
shape of North America.
How many kingdoms border the Great Lakes?
2: East and Middle
Where to the largest number of kingdoms intersect?
I'm not sure, but it's an interesting question...
Do the East, Middle, Atlantia, and Meridies touch anywhere? No.
There are _lots_ of three-kingdom intersections...
What about Outlands, Atenveldt, Caid, and the West...?
Perhaps a better question would be:
Q: Which kingdom has the largest number of bordering kingdoms?
A: The Middle borders the East, An Tir, Calontir, Meridies, & Outlands
also
Q: What are the meanings of the non-obvious kingdom names?
A: Ansteorra -- "one star/lone star (sort of)"
An Tir -- "the land"
Calontir -- "heartlands"
Meridies -- "south"
Trimaris -- "three seas" (Gulf of Mexico, Caribbean, Atlantic)
Drachenwald -- "dragon wood"
Caid -- acronym for Calafia, Angels, Isles, & Dreiburgen
their first 4 baronies... also Arabic? for fortress
Oertha -- "north"
Ealdormere -- "old lakes"
AEthelmearc -- "noble border"
Enjoy -- Bertram
From: mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu (Michael Chance)
Subject: Re: SCA Geography
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 93 20:10:41 GMT
Kvedjur fra Mikjal till Bjalfi!
Try this one: What is the name of the only SCA group ever located behind
the Iron Curtain (or in a Soviet-dominated area)?
A: The Shire of Perilous Journey (Berlin, Germany). It's 110 miles
from Berlin to the old intra-German border. (New groups forming in
Russia don't count - the wall came down in '89.)
Mikjal Annarbjorn
Former Perilous Journey Pursuivant
--
Michael A. Chance St. Louis, Missouri, USA "At play in the fields
Work: mc307a%viking at swgate2.sbc.com of St. Vidicon"
Play: ab899 at freenet.hsc.colorado.edu
mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu
From: james at nucleus.cuc.ab.CA (James Prescott)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Earl Edward Ean Anderson
Date: 11 May 1993 06:22:56 -0400
Organization: Nucleus BBS - Calgary, AB CANADA + 1 403 531-9353
-
Just a small correction to Berengaria's post.
-
Earl Edward Ean Anderson took the arrow through the right eye slot at
the "Clash of the Tetons"/"Chocolate Chip Cookie War"/"Salmon War"
in Salmon Idaho (June 1982) between An Tir and Atenveldt. The arrow
was an ordinary West/An Tir war blunt. The *problem* was the face
mesh, which had been purchased in Salmon at the last minute from a
hardware store, and which turned out to be much much weaker than it
appeared to casual inspection. End of casual inspections of mesh.
Edward was unhurt, but shaken, by the experience.
-
James Prescott (james at nucleus.cuc.ab.ca), (403) 282-0541
Thorvald Grimsson, OP, OL, OGGS, Baron of Montengarde, Yeoman
Royal Archer for Crown Principality of Avacal, Kingdom of An Tir
... and in Iceland 'tis the year of the White Christ 973 ...
From: mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu (Michael Chance)
Subject: Re: Skraeling wives?, Persona and honesty, Norse in America
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Mon, 17 May 93 18:16:56 GMT
Hossein Ali Qomi writes:
>I would truly like to understand why people are generally willing to
>characterize slipshod or intellecutally dishonest use of documentation
>to justify persona practices as "a disagreement over the rules" when
>they don't, by and large, treat false claims of peerage as the same
>kind of disagreement.
Ah, this is becoming a pet peeve of mine. It has to do with the
unfortunate choice of a name for the organization. one which I'm sure
Ms. Bradley regrets every time the argument is used.
We're the Society for _Creative_ Anachronism.
I can't begin to recall how many times the name has been used in an
argument to justify some gross historical inaccuracy. Anything can be
justified, just call it a "creative anachronism" (I've even seen this
used in A&S documentation).
Folks, the name came about because a park ranger needed a group name
to reserve the site for one of the first tourneys. Nobody had ever
thought about it before, and, with the park ranger waiting on the
other end of the phone, Marion Zimmer Bradley came up with "Society
for Creative Anachronism" off the top of her head under pressure
(remember, this was Berkely in '66-'67). To the utter despair of
many people, 'lo these many years later, the name stuck, and despite
the best intentions of the founders of the SCA, it's crippled us ever
since.
Mikjal Annarbjorn
--
Michael A. Chance St. Louis, Missouri, USA "At play in the fields
Work: mc307a%viking at swgate2.sbc.com of St. Vidicon"
Play: ab899 at freenet.hsc.colorado.edu
mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu
From: icklinck at undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Ian "Rhys" Klinck)
Subject: Re: Harold,Belts,Peers, Squir
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 18 May 1993 21:31:22 GMT
re: Poobah/Foobah:
Well, the story *I* heard, from a local of great experience (Though not, of
course as much as His Grace's) is that during the reign of King Merowald, he
was presented with a gift of belly-dancers. His response was "Hubba hubba!"
to which his Herald replied "No, Your Majesty, this is the Middle Ages, the
correct term is Hoobah Hoobah!"... since then the "official cheer" of the
Middle is "Hoobah!"
Dilestair fid dy hynt, ac ni rusia ddim rhagot!
Rhys ap Bledri
from Ealdormere, where we say "Wassail!"
(icklinck at cayley.uwaterloo.ca)
From: mcdaniel at convex.com (Tim McDaniel)
Subject: Hoobah
Date: Fri, 21 May 1993 20:49:51 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
A note from "Collected Brief History of the Middle Kingdom: Volumes I &
II: Cariadoc to Nathan", Orlando Ambrosius (Baron Daemon de Folo of
Wu:rm Wald, F. L. Watkins), Second Edition (A.S. 23 / 1989), p. 42.
It's from (as of 1989)
Folump Enterprises
805 East Green #1
Urbana, IL 61801
"At the first [Canton of] Three Hills [Kalamazoo, Mich.] event, held
that October [1971], Finnvarr was knighted. However, also at this
event, [Queen] Morna danced again ... Morgan ... and Morna had been
early missionaries for the exotic dancers guild; and through Duchess
Diana, it spread to Treegirtsea [Chicago, Ill.]. Finnvar notes in his
history of Iriel that 'It was in sardonic approbation of one of the
guild's better efforts that Iriel himself coined the phrase "Hoo-bah,"
which has since become the traditional plaudit of the Middle Kingdom.'"
[footnote: Steve Muhlberger, "The History of King Iriel of Brannokh."]
This account leaves unclear whether it was at this exact event that
"hoobah" was coined, but it's possible. Daemon mentions the guild
elsewhere (in re May 1971 Crown Tourney. "It is said that Cariadoc, who
affected a Moorish persona, got onto the floor himself." p. 34). If
"hoobah" wasn't coined at the October event, the story could just as
easily been put elsewhere.
Page 45 mentions Treegirtsea Twelfth Night, a bit later, where "Cariadoc
made a war arrow and gave it to Iriel, suggesting that Iriel return it
to Cariadoc to take with him 'as a token of war to the King of the East.
[When the Eastern King, Rakkurai, took the arrow,] 'he broke it, saying
"So will be do with the armies of the Middle" or words to that
effect,'[footnote: Letter from David Friedman, 2 July 1983] setting in
motion the wheels of war."
It's not clear from the account when Cariadoc moved to the East, but he
was obviously visiting very near the time of origination of "hoobah".
Perhaps it wasn't in general use yet.
--
Daniel of Lincoln, Barony of the Steppes, Ansteorra
(Tim McDaniel, Convex Computer Corporation)
Internet: mcdaniel at convex.com, mcdaniel at cyberspace.org
From: David Schroeder <ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Early Pennsic Sizes
Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 09:23:40 -0400
Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Greetings good gentles --
I've been enjoying (well, sort of) this year's discussion of period
tents and space at Pennsic. I'm confident the Coopers can handle
_quite_ a few more campers (it would be easy enough to move _all_
the cars to a remote site and run the shuttle busses to them,
freeing up all the parking space for camping).
I'm also curious, for those people _with_ period tents, if they've
managed to figure out some way of "bug proofing" them. My lady is
a "reluctant camper" at best and the only way I can make her "happy"
at the necessity of camping at Pennsic is to provide comfort and
a relatively "bug free" sleeping environment. We have a double room
Eureka modern tent that does a marvelous job of keeping out insects
and keeping in warmth. How do folks with period tents manage?
As for War sizes, I did a reasonable amount of research for my TI
article on the first ten Pennsics twelve years ago and would offer
the following rough attendance figures for them. Jessa and Dennis
have both been commenting on this matter. All figures are approximate.
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX X
100 200-250 300-350 250 300-350 600+ 1000 1300 1700 2000
The recent event held at Coopers Lake, AEthelmearc War Practice, had
a few hundred people and had much of the same feel as the early Coopers
Lake Pennsics (though there were more and better organized merchants!).
Oh, tangentally, interested parties are directed to articles in the
current issue of Scientific American on deep well drilling in medieval
China. They were drilling for salt brine in Sichuan, I believe, and
used some of the volatile gasses coming out of the wells to help
feed the fires evaporating the salt. ("Does that make propane
burners period?" he asks with a smile.) Also, the wire services have
been running an article about finds from a Spanish ship, the San Diego,
sunk by the Dutch near the Phillipines. Apparently the ship carried
Ming Dynasty pottery from China as well as Japanese warriors for
protection -- this may have some bearing on the on-going Oriental
persona debate.
Take care, good gentles -- may your ink never run!
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Bertram of Bearington Dave Schroeder
Debatable Lands/AEthelmearc/East Carnegie Mellon University
INTERNET: ds4p at andrew.cmu.edu 412/731-3230 (Home)
From: keradwc at rahul.net (Kevin Davis Connery)
Subject: Re: palatine baronies
Organization: Ringworld Engineering
Date: Fri, 28 May 1993 23:35:53 GMT
(Hal Ravn) writes:
> at bransle.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Draskoy) writes:
>> Palatine barony -- no reference; is a non-standard branch organization
>> occasionally authorized by the Board pursuant to C-V.D.5 for very
>> isolated groups.
>>
>>V.D.5 allows the BoD to experiment with new kinds of groups.
>>What exactly is a palatine barony, and are there any in existence?
>
>Yes. The Barony of the Far West (West Kingdom), comprising Japan,
>Korea, Guam, and Tinian is a Palatine Barony. I have heard remarks
>suggesting that there is another one somewhere, but I don't know
>where.
So soon they forget <g>. If you go about halfway(?) to the Far West, you'll
end up in the ...
Barony of the Western Seas, Once a Western Barony, they changed alliegance
to Caid about 10-12 years back. They've been 'palatinate' since then.
On the other hand, these are the only ones I've heard of. Perhaps all
palatinate baronies must come from the West, have West as part of their
names, and be islands? <g>
Keradwc
--
Keradwc an Cai A Caidan Mistie (or was that a Misty Caidan?)
Kevin Davis Connery kconnery at isi.com or keradwc at rahul.net
From: cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Our game
Date: 4 Jun 1993 19:17:17 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
(Angharad apud Hossein) writes:
>
>Bertram writes,
>>The Society _began_ as a fantasy/romantic _Arthurian_ generic "medieval"
>>recreation group -- NOT as a historical recreation organization.
>
>.... The original model, to the best of my knowledge,
>was indeed Arthurian: a distinctively western model.
As one who was there (I wasn't at the first tourney, but I was at the
second and third and the summer between them during which we actually
sat down occasionally and tried to figure out what it was we were doing),
Angharad is right. We were to a large extent making it up as we went
along, and considering almost all of us came from SF/F fandom it would
be a wonder if we didn't have some fantasy elements in there. But
mainly we were trying to be knights in shining armour, just as we had
all read about in Mallory.
>Actually, I'm not nearly as opposed to Japanese personas....
I don't object a whole lot to Japanese personae either, because your
traditional samurai milieu is a feudal one with virtual knights, kings,
ladies, swordfights, castles. They blend in with a thirteenth-century
Western knight about as well as a seventh-century man-at-arms or an
Elizabethan court fop do: well enough for me, if not for some. There's
a certain suspension of disbelief (another stfnal phrase) you have to
perform, or give up the SCA and go off eg. with Aryk's group, for whom
it is 1595 plus or minus 5 years.
I find it harder to deal with bunnyfur barbarians of Gor, not so much
because they look so different as because they are so obviously coming
from different sources. They haven't been reading Sir Thomas Malory
(who wrote about noble knights and ladies and was a jerk in private
life), they've been reading John Norman (who writes about sadistic
men and masochistic women and is a respectable professor of philosophy
in private life) or watching Conan movies (whose producers have no
virtues at all so far as I can tell).
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu
From: cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Our game
Date: 7 Jun 1993 18:46:38 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
David Schroeder <ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>Angharad wrote, in response to my comments on her "boccer" post:
>
>> The original model, to the best of my knowledge,
>> was indeed Arthurian: a distinctively western model.
>
>I would greatly appreciate it if Flieg or one of the other good gentles
>(Dorothea?) who started quite early would confirm that we were "purely"
>Western European from the earliest days.
Well, we weren't purely Western as in, no fantasy. At the first tourney
in Diana's back yard, we had among others Benjy Rolls (aetate suo about 9)
as a hobbit, Astrid Anderson (later Countess Astrid of Hawk Ridge) as
Queen Lucy of Narnia, and Marion Zimmer Bradley (later Mistress Elfrieda
of Greenwalls) as Don~a Ximena, wife to El Cid. (You'll notice also that
we hadn't yet developed the rule about "you can't be X, there's already
been one!").
As early as the second tourney (the first one I attended) there was a lot
less of the costume-party atmosphere, and nobody seemed to be attending
dressed as their favorite character in fiction. But among the decorative
(painted cardboard) shields hung on the trees and other vertical surfaces
were several devices out of Tolkien, noticeably the Eye of Sauron.
So far as I can recall, however, we started out purely Western as in,
no Japanese, still less Roman legionaries, Native Americans, or cavaliers.
I _think_ the first person to come in Japanese garb would've been Duke
Henrik of Havn, around the year Five. Henrik happened to hold the opinion
that Japanese ladies were more beautiful, gracious, and admirable than
any other ladies on this earth, and since he eventually married a Japanese-
American lady and made her his Duchess, he undoubtedly holds this opinion
still. He, and a few of his squires, started wearing Japanese garb
_sometimes,_ not always, around this time.
>My understanding of things was that we were a _very_ flexible group
>in the early days -- just as now almost any passing cultural fad would
>find itself reflected in the Society.
I think it's already been told on this group how at Beltane we were
visted by one Andrew Martinez, the famed "Naked Guy" of UC Berkeley
(formerly of, I should say, because they expelled him). He showed up
in what he might have argued was legitimate, pre-1600 garb, i.e., that
of Adam. I don't know if he had a chance to present that argument,
because the Autocrat sailed into him and said, -"I don't care what
they let you get away with in Berkeley, this is Colfax, and I have
about ten sets of parents ready to swear out a warrant for your arrest
for indecent exposure!"- He put on a loincloth.
That's how I saw him Friday evening, wandering along in his loincloth,
bare feet and shaven head. By Saturday noon he had put on a pair of
baggy pants. By Sunday he had added a bandanna over his head, a little
bolero, and sandals. If it'd only been a longer event, we might have
had him fully dressed by the time he went home.
Variations between kingdoms and
>regions of kingdoms on such matters were also great (as they remain!).
True. I don't think I've ever seen a West Kingdom cavalier, and I've
certainly never seen an Aztec. (They have one in Caid, I believe.)
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu
From: james at nucleus.cuc.ab.CA (James Prescott)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Arrows near eyes (again)
Date: 22 Jun 1993 14:00:03 -0400
Organization: Nucleus Information Service
Alan Fletcher said:
>Everyone I've talked to about the incident, including a very good
>friend of Sir Ian's, has said that he was wearing insufficient mesh
>over his eyeslot, and the only reason that the marshalls passed him
>was because of that little white belt. I haven't heard of any similar
>stories elsewhere, so I do think that that was an isolated event.
Siobhan replied:
>As I recall, it was in the first Great Desert War (which became
>Estrella) that just such an event (perhaps even this event) occurred.
>The archer in question was the young Stephen (later to become Sir
>Stephen and King Stephen) of Bellatrix. The comment I first
>overheard was, "Well, damn! Stevie's learned to shoot a snap!"
-
Just a small correction to Alan Fletcher's post, with some additional
information for Siobhan, that she may not feel so doddering.
-
Earl Sir Edward Ean Anderson took the arrow through the right eye slot
at the "Clash of the Tetons"/"Chocolate Chip Cookie War"/"Salmon War"/
"Bitterroot War" (yup, at least 4 names) in Salmon, Idaho (June 19-20
1982) between An Tir and Atenveldt. The arrow was an ordinary West/
An Tir war blunt. The *problem* was the face mesh, which had been
purchased in Salmon at the last minute from a hardware store (because
many fighters had forgotten to bring their own mesh), and which turned
out to be much much weaker than it appeared to casual inspection. End
of casual inspections of mesh. Edward was unhurt, but shaken, by the
experience.
-
Edward was not yet a knight, by nearly two years (he did not even have
his AoA at the time), so the presence or absence of a white belt had
nothing to do with it. In fact, the same mesh had been given to well
over a dozen forgetful heavies.
-
James Prescott (james at nucleus.cuc.ab.ca), (403) 282-0541
Thorvald Grimsson, OP, OL, OGGS, Baron of Montengarde, Yeoman
Royal Archer for Crown Principality of Avacal, Kingdom of An Tir
... and in Iceland 'tis the year of the White Christ 973 ...
From: fixit at astro.dasd.honeywell.com
Subject: Re: Time to Peerage
Organization: Honeywell Inc. DASD
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1993 20:47:26 GMT
In article <20n5tb$32n at menudo.uh.edu>, cosc19ut at menudo.uh.edu (Stephen) writes:
> She can be found playing
> under the name of Therese Honey (her real name, believe it or not).
> If you get a chance to hear her, do so. It really is wonderful.
Yes it is. I last heard hear at TFYC and just had to get her recordings.
> As to her Laurel, she received the peerage along with many others. Seems
> Ansteorra didn't have enough peers to be a kingdom and Atenveldt
> really wanted to get rid of them, so they created lots of peers. I don't
Atenveldt had a king (Theo) that wanted to do something impressive.
Ansteorra well deserved to be it's own kingdom.
> have an OP handy, but I think they made something like 6 or 7 Laurels that
> day. She certainly deserved it as much as any, and more than some.
There were seven laurels created at that Crown Tourney. I was there.
Gunwaldt
From: fixit at astro.dasd.honeywell.com
Subject: Re: Time to Peerage
Organization: Honeywell Inc. DASD
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 13:48:31 GMT
In article <1993Jun29.134726.1 at astro.dasd.honeywell.com>, fixit at astro.dasd.honeywell.com writes:
> There were seven laurels created at that Crown Tourney. I was there.
My how the mind slips. After thinking of this further I am no longer sure
if it was the first crown or not. Perhaps not. But Theo did make 7 laurels
and 1 pelcan all in one fell swoop.
I would still say that Ansteorra well deserved to be a kingdom.
Gunwaldt
From: mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu (Michael Chance)
Subject: Re: Drachenwald Coronation
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 18:12:27 GMT
Kvedjur fra Mikjal!
Lindorm describes the first Drachenwald Coronation, saying:
>Duke Siegfried von Hoeflichkeit had brought the crowns that was used for the
>first coronation in the SCA in A.S. II
This is singularly appropriate. A few years before the First Tourney,
Duke Siegfried (one of the founders of the SCA) was stationed with the
U.S. Air Force in Berlin, Germany, and for recreation would go
"castling" around Europe with a friend stationed in Bremerhaven (who
later became Fulk de Wyvern). As His Grace told the story, it was on
one of these trips that they started thinking, "Gee, wouldn't it be fun
to have a tourney society in the U.S. that did things like the castle
festivals they have here in Europe?"
Ever since I heard that story, I've been of the opinion that, while
the birth of the SCA was in Diana Listmaker's back yard, conception
took place on the U.S. military train, somewhere between Berlin and
Bremen.
Mikjal Annarbjorn
--
Michael A. Chance St. Louis, Missouri, USA "At play in the fields
Work: mc3078 at sw1sta.sbc.com of St. Vidicon"
Play: ab899 at freenet.hsc.colorado.edu
mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu
From: helm at ymir.ucdavis.EDU (Seriously Tweaked)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Motive behind incorporation of SCA
Date: 14 Jul 1993 03:02:33 -0400
I got this from both Diana Listmaker and from Teresa of Rivendell,
two of the founding members of Greyhaven. The reason they bothered
with incorporation was to get non-profit group mailing rates and
bulk mailing permits.
Twcs
From: cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Court Baronies
Date: 20 Jul 1993 18:13:03 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
ARCHER at utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer) writes:
>In my experience, the court barony as a royal attaboy is rare, but exists
>here.
Keep in mind, for what it's worth, that the "royal attaboy" was the origin
of the rank of court baron. King Jean de la Grand' Anse, in about the
Year IV, wanted to do _something_ nice for his father, who had never
been interested in the SCA before or since, and never attended any event
but his son's coronation. So Jean invented "court baron" as a sort of
"King's Order of Grace".
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu
From: shick at europa.eng.gtefsd.com (Steve Hick, GTE FSD SE Engineering)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: court baronies
Date: 26 Jul 1993 20:08:35 GMT
Organization: GTE GSC Federal Systems Division
*> Okay, I give up. What the heck is the Captaincy-General of Guatemala!?!
*> ----Simon
Originated during the reign of Gyrth and Melisande. Algernon was in the Peace Corp and being sent to
Guatemala for his 2 year tenure, and Gyrth and Mel made him their Captain-General. This was ca AS XIII.
Strykar
From: fixit at astro.dasd.honeywell.com
Subject: Re: Simplification
Organization: Honeywell Inc. DASD
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 17:22:49 GMT
Dennis O'Connor writes:
> Third, relax. So what if someone did sue the SCA ? So what if
> we loose all the money in the banks? The SCA is it's _people_,
> not it's bankbooks. We started with no money, we can re-start
> from zero money if we had too. It would be easier this time,
> since the SCA is bigger and has more people who have $$$ now.
> Christ, we don't even have any Real Property to lose !
I would like to point out that the SCA has been sued, unsuccessfully,
by a disgruntled former member. Having been one of the named
parties in the lawsuit, I find it a little hard to 'relax' about
the situation. I do have real property and money to lose, and
I'm damn glad that the corporation was willing to handle the
dispute.
You don't have to wait for this club to fail or fall apart because
of adminstrative overload to go 're-start' a recreation group.
Take the best ideas, leave what you don't like and go for it.
Australia and New Zealand were encouraged to make their own
corporation precisely because of the differences in local laws
but they found it easier to become part of this organization.
Gunwaldt
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Belts and Baldrics
From: bettina.helms at channel1.com (Bettina Helms)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 93 01:44:00 -0500
Organization: Channel 1(R) * 617-864-0100 Info * 617-354-7077 Modem
Re the ongoing discussion over the relationship between Knights and
Masters-at-Arms, here's the way I heard the origin of the whole thing:
Many years ago in the East Kingdom, there was a fighter named Sean
Ruadhbaruagh (which means "Redbeard"). He was a very good fighter, and
the King wanted to make him a Knight. But Sean did not want to be a
Knight, he wanted to be something totally unique. So he asked if he
could be a "Master-at-Arms" instead, and the King humored him.
This might have stayed a local joke, like the "Captain-General of
Guatemala" - except that at Pennsic Five(!) one Vissevald Selkirksson,
faced with the same situation, made the same request. Now, with SCA
awards, once is good schtick - twice is a tradition. The idea spread to
other Kingdoms and caught on there too.
Vissevald, incidentally, is now a Knight - and there's a story and a
half behind that fact (which he's been hoping for twelve years that
people will forget about, so I won't repeat it here).
As far as the East is concerned, the differences between a Knight and a
Master are that a Master wears a baldric and no chain, is not required
to swear fealty, and (if on the throne) cannot create another Knight
without the assistance of a Knight. Otherwise there is no distinction
between these two branches of the Chivalry. Some of the East's best
fighters are Masters-at-Arms - it seems to boil down to whether the
individual feels that Knighthood is appropriate to his/her persona or
not.
From: 0002853615 at mcimail.COM (William Linden)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Belts and Baldrics
Date: 17 Aug 1993 00:21:37 -0400
channel1.com> Katja writes:
>Re the ongoing discussion over the relationship between Knights and
>Masters-at-Arms, here's the way I heard the origin of the whole thing:
>Many years ago in the East Kingdom, there was a fighter named Sean
>Ruadhbaruagh (which means "Redbeard"). He was a very good fighter, and
>awards, once is good schtick - twice is a tradition. The idea spread to
>other Kingdoms and caught on there too.
Sounds like another "urban legend" growing. "Masters" were around a long time
before that, and started in the West, probably before there was an East
Kingdom-- the first was the mythical Edwin Berserk. We were told the difference
was some pettifogging about 'having to swear allegiance'.
Some early official papers have references to '....of the rank of knight or
master fighter', so that may be the original form of the title.
In Sean's case, some people made a fuss on the ground that he was a
mercenary.
Alfgar (Call me "Baron", bacon-brain!) the Sententious.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: fixit at astro.dasd.honeywell.com
Subject: Re: Belts and Baldrics
Organization: Honeywell Inc. DASD
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 18:21:06 GMT
Bettina Helms writes:
> Re the ongoing discussion over the relationship between Knights and
> Masters-at-Arms, here's the way I heard the origin of the whole thing:
>
> Many years ago in the East Kingdom, there was a fighter named Sean
> Ruadhbaruagh (which means "Redbeard"). He was a very good fighter, and
> the King wanted to make him a Knight. But Sean did not want to be a
> Knight, he wanted to be something totally unique. So he asked if he
> could be a "Master-at-Arms" instead, and the King humored him.
> This might have stayed a local joke, like the "Captain-General of
> Guatemala" - except that at Pennsic Five(!) one Vissevald Selkirksson,
> faced with the same situation, made the same request. Now, with SCA
> awards, once is good schtick - twice is a tradition. The idea spread to
> other Kingdoms and caught on there
An excellent story and the fine makings of folklore. I like it. But,
Master Richard the Short was recognized (I believe) before A.S. I. He
was considered equal to a knight and at the time living in the West.
Gunwaldt
From: cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Belts and Baldrics
Date: 17 Aug 1993 19:07:02 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
<fixit at astro.dasd.honeywell.com> wrote:
>Master Richard the Short was recognized (I believe) before A.S. I. He
>was considered equal to a knight and at the time living in the West.
In fact, the title of Master of Arms was invented largely because of
Richard, in preparation for the mass knighting/mastering/laureling
at Twelfth Night, AS II. Richard was then a seminarian and felt it
would be wrong for him to swear fealty to any earthly power--even in
a game. Then Edwin Baresark decided he would be a Master too--perhaps
because [in modern terms] it would be more appropriate for his persona,
and Frederick of Holland decided the same because he felt the fealty
relationships and duties were not properly defined.
Expertae crede--I helped write the ceremonies...
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: steffan at world.std.com (Steven H Mesnick)
Subject: Re: Just What is SCA?
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1993 22:00:35 GMT
Far Isles was an Eastern barony before it left the SCA -- as I understand
it, due to mis-communication with the Corporation and a lot of basically
er, ah, divergent philosophies. The group had originally been founded by
Sir Patri du Chat Gris, Baron Carolingia, while he was in England working
on his doctoral dissertation. Far Isles left the SCA about 10-12 years ago,
I think, not 20+. (I still have -- somewhere -- a friendship favor from
the Baroness, and I've been in the SCA for only 16 years....)
Steffan
From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Weaving
Date: 27 Aug 1993 17:25:40 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at zariski.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
>HL is sometimes used to abbreviate Lordship or Ladyship. The title
>used for those gentles who have a Grant of Arms. Some kingdoms use
>the SCAbomination of different levels of armigerousness more than
>others.
The original purpose of the Grant of Arms, for those who might be interested,
was to give a Great Officer of State who was not [yet] a Peer some extra
clout to use when dealing with Peers. Apparently a Constable, for example,
who didn't even have a Leaf yet would hesitate to tell a Megaduke "I'm
sorry, Your Grace, I know it's very inconvenient but you _cannot_
park there..."
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
From: DEW at ECL.PSU.EDU (Baron Dur al Jabal)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Pennsic Urban Myths
Date: 3 Sep 1993 01:19:50 GMT
Organization: Orluk Oasis
f333.n142.z1.fidonet.org writes:
#> DMD> One idea I overheard, to limit Pennsic, was to restrict Pennsic to SCA
#> DMD> members only. This is not my idea, this is simply something I heard
#> DMD> suggested. I don't think it's a good idea, but it would trim numbers
#> DMD> down.
#> DMD> If that is what you truly want to do.
#>
#> This would, of course, be terribly unpopular among the Tuchux. Especially
#> considering it was *they* who discovered Cooper Lake and invited the SCA to come
#> play there... ;)
#>
I think you should ask Mac Cooper and Duke Dagan (who was the original
"finder" of Coopers Lake Campgrounds
It might surprize you that the 'chux found out after things were already going
there (i.e. if they invited us, why weren't they there at PW
VI?)
Dale E. Walter |Dur of Hidden Mountain
|Durr al-Jabal abu Nefia min al-Maqfi Jabal Amir ilorluk
dew at ecl.psu.edu |Orluk Oasis on the War Road (of Aethelmarc)
From: cosc19ut at menudo.uh.edu (Stephen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Recruiting
Date: 17 Sep 1993 08:46:00 -0500
Organization: University of Houston
Jaguar writes:
>Now out of curiousity, how common is it for a non sword and shield
>fighter to win a crown tourney?
Duke Charles Inman MacMoore won a crown tournament in Ansteorra some years
ago fighting only spear. People who were there say it was rather boring
to watch, as he killed almost everyone with one shot.
Mind you, I think he won his other 4 crowns in a rather more conventional
manner.
Etienne d'Yverdon
From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA History Stuff
Date: 13 Sep 1993 16:42:33 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Bettina Helms <bettina.helms at channel1.com> wrote:
>Oh? Is Diana Paxson on this Net? John and/or Bjo Trimble? Marion Zimmer
>Bradley?
Not that I know of.
Fred Hollander?
He sure is. Haven't you seen his .sig with the strawberry leaves and
the slogan "Old Used Duke"?
Poul Anderson?
No.
Dr. Margaret Pope? Maybe they
>just lurk, and post at extremely rare intervals?
Dr. Pope has been dead for several years. I don't know if the Internet
reaches Heaven yet or not.
So far the senior
>person I have seen on this Net has been Baron Alfgar - and he only goes
>back to about AS III.
Will I do? I wasn't at the first tourney, but I was at the second and
subsequent. I really do go back to the Year One. Anything I can do
for you?
>
>....Eyewitness
>accounts from the early years of the East Kingdom .... clearly indicate ....
>a significant *preference* for Far Eastern personae
>(Akbar ibn Murad, third and fifth King of the East; Murad ibn Hakim,
>fourth King of the East - their personae are not Arab but Moghul, from
>India after the Mongol takeover; Rakkurai of Kamakura, sixth King of the
>East; Master Vuong Manh; Baroness Sita of Oudh; etc.) Apparently some of
>the early members took the designation of "East" Kingdom very literally.
Basically, yes. For the same reason the Middle Kingdom put a Chinese
dragon on its arms. You'll recall that back in AS single-digits, not
only were we still trying to figure out what we were doing, but we were
most of us very young--and the rest of us were science fiction fans and/or
writers, which tends to keep the brain limber and foster youthful attitudes.
>
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
From: gillimer at genie.geis.COM
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Easter(ling) personae
Date: 16 Sep 1993 23:38:05 -0400
Katja writes:
>How about black Vikings? There's one locally, who doesn't bother to
Not to mention that alpine freebooter El of the Two Knives, whose father
"brought back a dusky maiden...."
>(Oral tradition has it that the East Kingdom picked an azure tyger in
>response to the Middle's dragon, when somebody (Vuong Manh? Duke
It was an individual this person usually refers to with the perpendicular
pronoun...er, it was I. See Borges BOOK OF IMAGINARY BEINGS... I picked on
the Vietnamese version because the Chinese one was a dragon (for obvious
reasons).
Alfgar (Call me "Baron", jobbernowl!) the Sententious
From: David Friedman <NetID at cornell.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Easterners in East, Chinese in Middle?
Date: 17 Sep 1993 02:56:03 GMT
Organization: Cornell University
Bettina Helms, bettina.helms at channel1.com writes:
>Eyewitness
>accounts from the early years of the East Kingdom (yes, I
interviewed
>Baron Alfgar among other people) clearly indicate
...
> a significant *preference* for Far Eastern personae
>(Akbar ibn Murad, third and fifth King of the East; Murad ibn
Hakim,
>fourth King of the East - their personae are not Arab but
Moghul, from
>India after the Mongol takeover; Rakkurai of Kamakura, sixth
King of the
>East; Master Vuong Manh; Baroness Sita of Oudh; etc.)
Apparently some of
>the early members took the designation of "East" Kingdom very
literally.
You exaggerate. Off hand, the only eastern easterners from the early days I
can think of other than those you list were the ladies of House Hakim--
Fatima and Khadijah. We had one prominent Islamic household (Hakim), one
prominent Japanese individual (Rakkurai), and a few individuals with
eastern personae. Note, for example, that Vuong Manh was not master
Vuong Manh until long after--indeed, I am not even sure if he was a
member during the reigns of Murad, Akbar, and Rakkurai.
Also, I believe House Hakim was mongol persian, presumably Ilkhanid, not
Moghul, although I might be mistaken. If I am correct, then the only
prominent individual in the early history of the East I can think of who
was not from one of the "western or in contact with the west" cultures
was Rakkurai.
>I also got sketchy accounts of the (figurative) bloodbath around AS V or
>VI, when the controversy over whether to join the West and Middle
>Kingoms in "the SCA, Inc." got so heated and vicious that a number of
>active members strongly *opposed* to incorporation were driven away
>forever. (Some of them still live in the Boston area...but will have
>nothing to do with the SCA and will not discuss it in any way.)
If I have my dates correct, you are describing a period that included my
first Eastern reign. The East was already a part of the corporation at the
time--indeed, I am fairly sure it was a part of the corporation several
years earlier, when the Middle Kingdom was founded as a principality of
the East Kingdom. There was some unpleasantness around the time of
Rakkurai's reign, but it had nothing to do with whether or not we were
going to "join the West and the Middle kingdoms in the SCA, Inc."
Dorothea quotes Bettina Helms on early members taking the designation of
"East" Kingdom very literally, and adds.
>Basically, yes. For the same reason the Middle Kingdom put a Chinese
>dragon on its arms.
This is a bit misleading. Both the Dragon and the Pale on the arms were
intended as plays on the name "Middle Kingdom," but I cannot remember
any Chinese personae in the kingdom at the time.
David/Cariadoc
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Easterners in East, Chine
From: bettina.helms at channel1.com (Bettina Helms)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 93 21:55:00 -0500
Organization: Channel 1(R) * 617-864-0100 Info * 617-354-7077 Modem
David/Cariadoc writes:
NE>This is another attempt to post the comments that have been going
NE>through as mostly blank pages. I apologise for the problem--I am
NE>trying to learn to use new posting software.
Apology accepted and understood. By the way, what has brought Your Grace
to Cornell University?
NE>In article <40.22796.1580.0NE18B20 at channel1.com> Bettina Helms,
NE>bettina.helms at channel1.com writes:
>>Eyewitness accounts from the early years of the East Kingdom (yes, I
>>interviewed Baron Alfgar among other people) clearly indicate ... a
>>significant *preference* for Far Eastern personae
NE>You exaggerate. Off hand, the only eastern easterners from the
NE>early days I can think of other than those you list were the
NE>ladies of House Hakim-- Fatima and Khadijah.
I cry pardon for having overlooked those two gracious ladies. :-)
NE>Also, I believe House Hakim was mongol persian, presumably
NE>Ilkhanid, not Moghul, although I might be mistaken.
At this remove, I daresay the only persons who know for sure are the
surviving members of House Hakim...who have not been seen in these parts
for many a long year. But "Moghul" was what I was told by several people
who claimed familiarity with the House and its members.
>>I also got sketchy accounts of the (figurative) bloodbath around
>>AS V or VI, when the controversy over whether to join the West and
>>Middle Kingoms in "the SCA, Inc." got so heated and vicious that
NE>If I have my dates correct, you are describing a period that
NE>included my first Eastern reign. The East was already a part of
NE>the corporation at the time--indeed, I am fairly sure it was a
NE>part of the corporation several years earlier, when the Middle
NE>Kingdom was founded as a principality of the East Kingdom.
I guess the accounts were even sketchier than I realized - for one
thing, I had *not* heard that the Middle Kingdom was "founded as a
principality of the East"! :-)
NE>There was some unpleasantness around the time of Rakkurai's reign,
NE>but it had nothing to do with whether or not we were going to "join
NE>the West and the Middle kingdoms in the SCA, Inc."
It's entirely possible that my informants, who were going on their own
fallible memories, had confused two or more major controversies.
NE>Dorothea quotes Bettina Helms on early members taking the
NE>designation of "East" Kingdom very literally, and adds.
NE>Do>Basically, yes. For the same reason the Middle Kingdom put a
NE>Do>Chinese dragon on its arms.
NE>This is a bit misleading. Both the Dragon and the Pale on the
NE>arms were intended as plays on the name "Middle Kingdom," but I
NE>cannot remember any Chinese personae in the kingdom at the time.
I presume Your Grace would have firsthand knowledge of that, and so I
will take your word for it.
* OLX 2.1 TD * Will the real King Arthur please return?
From: dickeney at access.digex.net (Dick Eney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Easterners in East, Chinese in Middle?
Date: 20 Sep 1993 21:25:27 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
His Grace Duke Cariadoc is correct; I joined a couple of years after the
reigns of Rakkurai and House Hakim. In fact, my first SCA XII Night was
the one we held during King Cariadoc's second (?) reign -- down in the
basement of a church in Bhakail, at which attendance was about double
expectation and the crowding became incredible. And my first Pennsic was
Penssic IV, alias Pennsic Puddle. Some historians suggest this indicates a learning disability, or at least a case of schadenfreude.
|-- Vuong Manh (dickeney at access.digex.com) Storvik, Atlantia |
|"Everything difficult becomes easier with chocolate!" |
From: NetID at cornell.edu (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pennsic population
Date: 19 Sep 93 15:03:09 GMT
Organization: Cornell University
T. Archer writes, with regard to the Tuchux:
"But I am not comfortable with excluding the founders of
Pensic, which we seem to have taken over, by adding additional
rules to the event. I'll certainly..."
To the best of my knowledge and belief, the Tuchux did not
exist when Pennsic was founded. They certainly had nothing to
do with founding it, nor were they present at Pennsic one. I
was not involved with the process by which Pennsic got moved to
its present site, so have no first-hand knowledge of whether
the Tuchux had any involvement in our finding Cooper's lake.
David/Cariadoc
From: David Schroeder <ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: T.I.M.E.
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 23:12:12 -0400
Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Hi folks --
> [Bertram] writes:
> > Does anyone remember the
>
> > "*T*ournaments *I*lluminated *M*artial *E*xtravaganza" ?
>
> Yes I do. I also remember TIME's response.
> You gotta respect restraint like that.
>
> Pavel
> Calontir
The "Martial Extravaganza" issue of TI, #67 I think, was one of the
issues printed during my tenure as TI editor back in the dim distant
mists of the past (like the late '70s and early '80s). It had TIME's
red border (mostly) and a medievally flavored version of their title
with initials separating the letters and "Tournaments Illuminated
Martial Extravaganza" appearing below in smaller print. The bar
code in the lower lefthand corner was made of spears and polearms.
Just to make things clear there was never a chance of trouble from
TIME over the cover -- there's a right to parody that goes along
with freedom of expression in the U.S. MAD Magazine a year or so
later published their own TIME parody with Alfred E. Neuman as
"Idiot of the Year" or some such and MAD often imitates other
publications for humorous effect. Had I _asked_ TIME whether
or not I could use their "look" for a parody they would have
told me "No!" but they couldn't do anything (nor would they
want to do anything) about a single-issue parody.
I sent a copy of the issue, as a courtesy (and to see what
reply it would prompt) to the senior editor of TIME and he
forwarded it to their counsel who entered very much into
the spirit of things and said (translating from legalese)
that once was funny, but don't do it again. He signed
his letter "Troll of Damp Feet and Counselor of Laws..."
It was good fun...
I didn't have the heart to remind the lawyer of
the connection between "Tournaments Illuminated"
and "Sports Illustrated..."
Take care, friends -- my best -- Bertram
From: David Schroeder <ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: TI's Name
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1993 20:01:40 -0400
Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Hi folks (and especially Dorothea -- where's Hal these days?) --
Lord Stefan li Rous of Ansteorra asked me a question about the origins
of Tournaments Illuminated--namely--where did it get its play-on-words
with Sports Illustrated moniker. A dim and distant memory of a con-
versation with Duke Seigfried von Hoflichskeit says that it was coined
by John de Cles, but I certainly could be wrong since I didn't join
until A.S. XI.
Of course, one also needs to remember such gems as "Popular Chivalry"
(the newsletter of Meridies) to get a sense of what the Society's
sense of humor was like pre-A.S. XV.
What would be a good name for the Society's quarterly journal if we
were naming it today, rather than twenty-five years ago? _Speculum_
is already taken... _Better Keeps and Castles_ wasn't that funny
a dozen years ago. _Period_ comes to mind, but it might be mistaken
for a Women's Studies or Medical journal...
Any ideas, friends?
My best -- Bertram
From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: TI's Name
Date: 28 Oct 1993 02:35:23 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
David Schroeder <ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>Hi folks (and especially Dorothea -- where's Hal these days?) --
He got his account turned off--office politics.
>Lord Stefan li Rous of Ansteorra asked me a question about the origins
>of Tournaments Illuminated--namely--where did it get its play-on-words
>with Sports Illustrated moniker. A dim and distant memory of a con-
>versation with Duke Seigfried von Hoflichskeit says that it was coined
>by John de Cles, but I certainly could be wrong since I didn't join
>until A.S. XI.
I think it was probably consensus between Jon and Diana, the first
editor and illuminatrix respectively.
All I remember was when the first issue showed up, with that picture
of Henrik on a horse....
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: question
Date: 29 Oct 1993 20:57:29 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Conor Mackaine <roaric at bu.edu> wrote:
>I have recently come accross a reference to the "Order of Wizard Lore
>of the Associated Guilds of the Society for Creative Anachronism". Can
>anyone give me any information about it?
Oh, yeah, the O.W.L. was the schtik of Isaac the Unlikely (a.k.a. Isaac
de la Decapole d'Alsace, m.k.a. Isaac Bonewitz) in the early days.
It certainly does not exist any more. Isaac hasn't played with the
SCA since the early seventies, to his and our mutual relief I suspect.
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
From: roaric at bu.edu (Conor Mackaine)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: question
Date: 29 Oct 1993 20:11:22 GMT
Organization: Boston University
greetings to all
I have recently come accross a reference to the "Order of Wizard Lore
of the Associated Guilds of the Society for Creative Anachronism". Can
anyone give me any information about it? The book was written in 1970,
so it wuld be from early in the society. I don't want to raise any
hot debates over this, I am just curious about what it was and if it
still exists. Could you please send the responses directly to me at
roaric at acs.bu.edu.
Thank you
Conor Mackaine
From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Duke on a Motorcycle
Date: 1 Nov 1993 18:11:54 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
The _original_ Duke on a Motorcycle was Master Richard of Mont Royal,
called the Short, who in late August of AS II went down to Los Angeles
to attend Westercon XX and participate in a demo, as did many of us.
He wasn't wearing his armour; he was wearing his proper leathers and
motorcycle helmet--just as well, too--and his armour and weaponry
were bundled on the back of the cycle behind him. Well, Master Richard
fought with a great big kite-shield, and somewhere en route the wind
caught the kite like ... a kite, and blew him over onto the shoulder.
He had cuts and bruises and some broken teeth, BUT HE MADE IT TO THE
CONVENTION AND FOUGHT IN THE DEMO ANYWAY.
His motto in those days was "Dwarves Are Hard to Kill."
When it was time for him to receive the Crown for the second time
(Diana Listmaker was his Queen), he got out his cycle and borrowed
another from a friend and he and Diana rode once around the field
before riding up to their thrones. Not terribly period in appearance,
but very perioid in intent.
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
From: jtn at nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Future SCA?
Date: 3 Dec 1993 16:35:11 GMT
Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.
Responding to Bertram, Archer writes,
>> o Kingdoms/principalities/households/special interest groups
>> splitting off from the SCA and having their own events where
>> SCA memberships are not required if fighters want to fight...
>
>I heard a rumor/urban legend that the BoD was planning to ban fencing,
>SCA-wide, some time ago, and the Crown of Atenvelt, after consulting with his
>peers, said he would take his Kingdom independant rather than ban a widely
>enjoyed practice. Probably exaggerated or flat out false, but the fact that I
>heard it at all is evidence that this is at least in people's minds.
That was Ansteorra, not Atenvelt (or rather, Atenvelt may have done
something similar, but the kingdom I am aware of that did this is
Ansteorra). Inman was king at the time; I believe it was his first
reign. My lord has the details, but I'm at work.
This one isn't a legend -- or, rather, it may now be legend, but it
also happened.
Cheers,
-- Angharad/Terry
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: levey at netcom.com (Don Levey)
Subject: Re: Knightly virtues?
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 1994 16:40:44 GMT
ALFRED at cccpp.COM (ALFRED) writes:
> Good Carolus,
>
> You passionately rebutt Sir John's posting:
>
> >> Countess Elena of Beckingham ... announces that dancing
> >> is a knightly virtue in such a fashion that the local
> >> fighters hear it....
> >> John Theopholis
>
> > I disagree. Dancing is not a knightly virtue. I will go
> > one step further, and say that *nothing* not connected
> > to military service to the crown should ever be
> > considered a knightly virtue.
>
> It has long been the belief of the SCA chivalry that we are
> trying to emulate the knights of literary romance, rather
> than any historical model. As such, a set of criteria,
> albeit arbitrary, was set down some time ago as a guideline
> for elevating candidates to the order. This is not unlike
> Castiglione's ideal gentleman in _The Book of the Courtier_.
> Thus, dancing is an _SCA_ knightly virtue, regardless of its
> relevance to historical elevation criteria.
>
><SNIP>
>
> Alfred of Carlyle, West Kingdom
We must also consider: where did these literary beliefs come from,
if not from some ideal present in the society in which it arose?
I speak not only of the Victorian novels, but of in-period literature
which speaks of things such as courtly graces, courtly love, etc.
It frequently discussed with disparaging terms those who were "bad"
knights, who appeared to be men who could fight, but (implicitly)
little else (including diplomacy).
Early on in the Society (I am told by one who knows), there was
a debate as to whether to create two orders of knighthood: one
for fighting and another peerage for courtly grace. The impetus for
this was one man who was not the best fighter, but embodied all
other virtues which created the "image" of knighthood (at least
for people at this time in SCA history). The result of this debate
was that this man should be made a knight, because he was a knight.
Some did not see this, but many did, and many still do.
To some, fighting is one of the least important skills a knight
may posess. The other virtues are what separate a knight from
a highly-trained stick jock. Peerage, to me, is something which
places the person up as a example of what we shouldd strive to be.
I know that at least on eknight regularly asked his squires to
display their needlework, to prove their diversity. Narrowness as
an ideal will encourage narrowmindedness in our members.
OK, I'll get off my soapbox now.
-Don
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: kreyling at lds.loral.com (Ed Kreyling 6966)
Subject: Re: blunt steel weapons
Organization: Loral Data Systems
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1993 21:30:13 GMT
DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman) writes:
>Brigit wrote:
>
>> I agree with Johan. I have been in the SCA for 19 years and have seen _many_
>> armor changes (standards when I joined were freon helm, kidney belt, cup and
>> _welding_ gloves). I have never seen a rule change (where blows are
>> acknowledged) or armor requirement change that was not based on safety.
>
>When I joined, shots below the knee were, I believe, illegal everywhere
>except in Atenveldt. Could someone involved in either the original decision
>in the west, or the much later decision in Atenveldt (or perhaps some of
>the Aten daughter and stepdaughter kingdoms), describe the reason? Off
[stuff deleted]
>David/Cariadoc
The story that reached eastern Atenveldt (now Meridies) when the Atenveldt
rule change occurred was that Robert Roundpounder (one of those many time
Dukes) won Crown Lyst after having a bone in his lower leg broken during the
list. His alledged statement as he was illegalizing lower leg blows was
"Anyone can break my leg, it takes someone really good to beat me"
Brigit
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brigit Olesdottir, OL |Pam Kreyling
Shire of Brineside Moor |Loral Data Systems
Kingdom of Trimaris |Sarasota, FL, USA
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Global Alert For All: Jesus is Coming Soon
Date: 19 Jan 1994 04:13:14 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Dick Eney <dickeney at access2.digex.net> wrote:
>In article <1994Jan18.151546.2600 at news.cs.brandeis.edu>,
>David Matthew Deane <deane at binah.cc.brandeis.edu> wrote:
>>If the world ends, does that mean that all of our royalty, chivalry,
>>peerage, etc., will be freed from their vows/oaths etc? You know,
>>that part about "...or until the world ends"?
>>
>>Or is that oath only used in the West?
>>
>No; it's uused in Atlantia routinely, and in the Eastrealm the last I
>heard (about a year back). I believe the original text was devised by
>Master Kay de la Fleur (Kent Bloom) at least ten years ago.
When you say "original text" do you mean "as when it was first used
in the East"?
Because the version used in the West dates from the Year Two; I
cobbled it out of Gondor's oath in _The Return of the King_ and a
French oath I found in some book somewhere.
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
From: MCKAY_MICHAEL at atalla.tandem.COM
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Quote from the Page: Frederick of Holland
Date: 2 Feb 1994 09:48:38 -0500
The Page (West Kingdom Newsletter) has been running a series called "Dukes of
the West" and I thought Rialto readers might be interested in Flieg's entry
in the Febuary Page.
------------- Copy from Page ------------------
Part Twelve in the Dukes of the West series -- Frederick of Holland -- Azure,
a unicorn's head couped to sinister above two ovoid annulets conjoined in fess
at their smaller ends, Argent. Frederick's first reign was as King of the
East. His second reign was as King of the West, so he was created a Duke in
in this kingdom and is part of this list. Frederick defeated Steingrim
Stellari in the finals at October Crown AS XV. At the Crown Tourney during
Frederick's reign, His Majesty was given a very large quantity of mushrooms;
forty pounds or so if memory serves. Frederick is famed for his fondness for
mushrooms. As March Crowns tend to be, this event was quite cold and damp.
The ladies of Frederick's household made enough mushroom soup for everyone
at the event.
------------------ End of copy -------------------
A couple of questions Spring to mind. When did Frederick RUE over the East?
Does he still like mushrooms (perhaps it is less legendary now)?
Sean MacKay (aka. MCKAY_MICHAEL at tandem.com) Caer Darth; Darkwood; Mists; West
From: DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: reply to infamy, etc.
Date: 25 Jan 1994 14:43:35 GMT
Organization: Cornell Law School
gs1297 at albnyvms.bitnet writes:
> if someone wants to do something really wild (and this is pure
speculation)
> why doesn't someone bring up the BoD on charges in a court of Chivalry, or
> better yet a Court of Courtesy. How Courteous or Chivalrous have their
> actions of late been, enough to warrant such action?? and would it actually
> mean anything to do so? just wondering wildly
>
> alaric
About twenty years ago, when the then board transferred a substantial chunk
of the East Kingdom (most of current Meridies) to Atenveldt without asking
the crown of the East for permission, telling the East they were doing it,
or consulting the general membership in the affected area, I accused them
of base and dishonorable behavior and asked them to name a champion. They
refused. Richard Montroyal (miscalled Richard the Short--he's taller than I
am) volunteered to champion them (without their permission or
endorsement--the board's position, then as now, was that it is outside of
the medieval framework) and beat me.
--
David/Cariadoc
DDF2 at Cornell.Edu
From: mcdaniel at convex.com (Tim McDaniel)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Male to female persona
Date: 16 Feb 1994 00:56:47 GMT
Organization: Engineering, Convex Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx USA
qshawn mackinnon <smackinnon at mta.ca> wrote:
> I was just wondering, if it was possible for males to have female
> persona in the SCA?
A small historical note: in the early days of the SCA, women would
sometimes assume male personas to be able to fight. (I read an early
SCA text on heraldic conflict checking saying that "Since we will never
see a woman on the field of honor, we need not worry as much about
heraldic conflict between ...".) The rules of the list changed long
ago, though.
I've occasionally seen women in men's clothing at SCA events, but I
don't recall seeing men in women's clothing. Much like modern society,
come to think of it ...
> And who should you talk to before going to an event cross gendered.
The SCA is pretty accepting. In general, most people don't care about
what you're wearing, and the few that do generally won't say anything to
you about it (though they may, alas, make snide remarks behind one's
back about the quality of one's research, fabric, or sewing skills).
You don't *need* any approval. I suggest that you just do it very well.
--
Tim McDaniel, Convex Computer Corporation, Richardson, TX (near Dallas)
If mcdaniel at convex.com fails, try mcdaniel at convex.convex.com or
mcdaniel at mozart.convex.com
From: julifolo at ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (watkins julia k)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Historical oddities of the Midrealm
Date: 15 Feb 1994 06:40:48 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
corliss at hal.PHysics.wayne.EDU (David J. Corliss) writes:
>Dorothy Heydt wrote:
> > Don't forget the guy who won the Crown of the Midrealm and hocked it.
> > I've always wanted to hear more about that.....
>As I understand the story, the person in question felt that, since he was King,
>the Crown was his personal property and could be disposed of as he saw fit.
>The metal Crown was recovered but all the stones had been removed and sold.
>It was restored, with one setting remaining empty to this day in memory.
¯ Beorthwine
¯
This was, of course, the infamous Michael of BoarsHaven who had the
misfortune, to quote Richard d'Alsace (then MidRealm seneschal), of
reading THE CORPORA and believing it. To make a long story short,
Michael was a contentious king, who feuded with his queen, his knights,
the king before him and the king after him. His queen, Zarina Daeth,
abdicated when she couldn't take his attitudes anymore, and he abdicated,
hoping that--as was indicated by CORPORA--he would inconvenience the
Middle Kingdom by forcing them to have a crown tournament to cover the
month of April. This, of course, proved unfeasible, and we who were
on the MidRealm curia merely signed a proclamation stating that Albert,
the tanist, was King. Albert and his princess were later crowned, but
he reigned for a couple months as uncrowned king (including at the
Society Decennial).
Michael was angered by this and, accordingly, refused to return the
Crowns and the files of the Kingdom. Albert filed a suit against
Michael (in small claims court), and Michael counter-sued. This
farce went on through two appearances in court, after which Michael's
lawyer (who was giving him free advice) quit. Michael then called
Albert and said he was tired of the whole situation and to come and
get the crowns. Albert did, and Michael called the police to say
that Albert had just stolen his crowns. Everything was worked out,
and the states attorney essentially told us all that he didn't want
to hear anything more about this.
During the time Michael had the crowns, he and his roommate apparently
played football with them and pried out one of the gems to see if
it was worth any money (it wasn't). When Albert received the crown,
he commanded that it never be repaired and that future kings and queens
be shown the crowns and told the sad story of Michael. (BTW, Michael's
claim was that the crowns, etc. had been given to him and that he had
never been told they belonged to the SCA)
More of the story of Michael is available in our BRIEF HISTORY OF THE
MIDDLE KINGDOM, TALES OF THE MIDLANDS KINGS and TRUE HISTORY OF WURM
WALD. I was, BTW, a close friend of Michael's and was happy to see
him the last time we happened to meet. Unfortunately, he should never
have been King (he won his crown when he had been a member for only
about a year). At the risk of sounding allegorically political, in
the beginning of his reign, Michael felt that what he was doing he
was doing for the good of the Society.
Yrs, Damin de Folo
Who Was There
From: mabr at sweden.hp.com (Morgan "the Dreamer" Broman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Trading Cards (Drachenwald)
Date: 25 Feb 1994 12:42:05 GMT
Organization: HP/SCA/SKA/FSTS/AMTS/SLRP/ETC Sweden
MMS6824 at tntech.EDU wrote:
:Just to keep everyone up to date:
:His Most gracious Majesty, Morgan of Drachenwald:
:> My dear Lady, would you want the complete set, with Princes and all
:>or just the Kings and Queens. I'm sorry to say that I will be a duplicate
:>if you want them all.... ;) ?
:> The price is definitely negotiable. If MyLady is planning to attend
:>Pennsic this year, then maybe we can work something out....!
:>Order of preference for suggested methods of payment are :
:> Hugs
:> Songs
:> Stories
:> Backrubs
:> Chocolate-chip cookies
:> (Booze), unless it is Captain Morgans Spiced Rum !!!!!
:Good and Gentle King Morgan,
: What an offer you propose. My original thought was just the Kings and
:Queens, however, now that you mention the others...., and surely a duplicate of
:yourself cannot be a bad thing.
Thank you my Lady, though I doubt the entire Known World would agree
with your kind assessment.... Some people would probably rather freeze to
death than have two of Yours Truly around... ;)
: I will most definitely be at Pennsic, residing with my family, Clann
:Kyle. Perchance, will you be doing the negotiating yourself, or will you send a
:representative? I would hate to be giving valuable hugs to representative to
:pass along. Not to mention the very delicate process of determining the price
:of each royal couple. The process could take a great deal of time on both of
:our parts.
:Your's in service - Marian
I must say that the determination of the price would in this case
be entirely up to Mylady. It would not cross my mind to embarrass a Lady
by haggling (sp?) over the price....honour forbid... ;) !
As far as the Royal couples goes I think there are 26 Princes
and Pricessess, 2 Kings and Queens so far....hm...28 couples all in
all...
Princees & Princesses Personal Notes
===================== ==============
Jahn & Tuiren (AS XV)
Bearengaer & Nige (AS XV)
David & Catheryn
Dorin & Catheryn
Raim & Regina
Wolf & Catriona
Alexander & Katya
Galen & Kaylitha
Raim & Gwynna
Dafydd & Morgan
Richard & Joedda (AS XX)
Wulfbrand & Lucilla (AS XX
Justin & Gyth
Ulric & Eleonora
Ivar & Kathleen
Gwenllhian & Stefan
Axel & Jean-Maire
Ian & Charitee
Yoshina & Evonne
Bryon & Silesia
Karl & Bettina (XXV)
Cian & Catherine (XXV)
Morgan & Alienor
Myles & Katharina
Gareth & Idunn
Karl & Leia
Kings & Queens
==============
Elffin & Vanna
Morgan & Alienor
That's the list.... ;)
Ciao
Morgan//
Who think we should never forget why we do this !!! ;) ;) ;)
--
HP : Morgan Broman mabr at sweden.hp.com
SCA : Morgan deGrey, Master of the Freehold Ravens Crag
APD-I: Shade
Amtgard : Morlacad ShadowHawk a.k.a Shade
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: pattie at harry.lloyd.com (Pattie McGregor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Showing the Society in a "bad light"
Date: 4 Mar 1994 22:50:50 -0800
Organization: A BARRnet customer
Summary: where the publications policy came from
My news software has spooled this and lost it twice. I hope
this isn't a repeat for anyone. s.
========================================
Good Gentles:
Several folks have recently been asking questions about this passage from
the correspondence from TRM of the Middle about Newsletters and TI.
Many have asked about how the publications policy came into existence
which allows this sort of thinking to be validated by policy.
>
>>T.I., more than any other publication, represents all that the
>>Society has to offer - it justifies our charter, and exhibits our
>>policies. All of the SCA publications are major PR tools that reach
>>public libraries, schools, and museums. Because of such contact with
>>"mundane society" - it violates the Society Chronicler's policies to
>>publish editorials or advertisements which show the SCA in a bad
>>light. (It is like airing dirty laundry.) It is not the Board trying
>>to censor, it is a long established policy enacted to protect the SCA
>>from outside criticism. If you have any questions about this policy
>>contact either the Kingdom Chronicler or the Society Chronicler.
Mea Culpa. I'm the original culprit.
In the original Publications Policy, which I wrote (with lots of help
from other Chroniclers and the then-steward), there is a directive that
nothing in the newsletters should show the SCA in a bad light.
At that time we worried about drunkenness, paganism, sex, etc.
"Sweet buns" and "Wet chemise" contests were rampant, as were statements
such as "This site is dry; if you must bring alcohol, keep it hidden." Our
standard was to not offend the father of a 16-year old girl
who asked to go to an event, or the postal worker who thumbed through
a newsletter before delivering it.
I did not expect it to be used to squash dissenting viewpoints. Silly me,
expecting my values to be carried throughout a rational, thinking organization.
Personally, I think an active discussion about the organization
of the organization is a sign of health, but I'm no longer in a
position to do anything about that. :-(
siobhan
===========================================================================
Siobhan Medhbh O'Roarke
Sharing her time between Crosston & 3060 Ridgeline Drive
Golden Rivers Rescue, CA 95672
pat at cygnus.com (916) 677-6607
siobhan at lloyd.com (415) 903-1448 (days)
From: masc0575 at ucssun1.sdsu.edu (C. Kevin Kellogg)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: mc.lcs.mit.edu
Date: 3 Mar 1994 19:19:20 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University Computing Services
David Friedman (DDF2 at cornell.edu) wrote:
: > Corpora doesn't forbid
: > surfer Laurels today, but I've never heard of one. Have you?
: No, but I am fairly sure that a kingdom in Southern California that will
: remain nameless gave a laurel for photography. It was a long time ago.
Yes, your Grace, Caid did indeed do this, many, many years ago.
We've regreted it ever since. We won't ever do it again. We promise,
really. Cross our hearts. Nope, not us. :-)
: David/Cariadoc
: DDF2 at Cornell.Edu
Avenel Kellough
From: paulb at saturn.uark.edu (Paul A. Byers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: oak spears?
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 1994 08:59:35
Organization: University of Arkansas
jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray) writes:
>In the "lawsuit" thread I saw a mention of oak spears being banned in
>SCA combat on safety grounds. I'm curious as we fight with metal
The problem with hardwood spears was that they hit too hard. At a Pensic
Duchess Sif of Ansteorra was hit hard enough to cause a bruse in the sack that
surrounds the heart. (was a bad thing!) A SCA MD wrote the BOD that he would
be willing to testify against SCA Inc.
The fiberglass spears don't hit as hard as the old oak ones. (though the 'D'
bucket handled ones come close.
Pavel
Calontir
From: DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: no quarterstaffs
Date: 2 Apr 1994 03:11:29 GMT
Organization: Cornell Law School
I cannot speak for any other kingdom, but the original reason for banning
quarterstaff in the Middle was safety. I do not know if we were right--we
knew less then than we know now, and we don't know very much now--but that
was the reason. As I recall, we tried swinging one at a tree, and decided
none of us wanted to be the tree.
David/Cariadoc
DDF2 at Cornell.Edu
From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: f&sf writers in the SCA (was re:authenticity)
Date: 18 Apr 1994 16:35:53 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
TRISTAN CLAIR DE LUNE/KEN MONDSCHEIN <v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu> wrote:
> Also, don't forget Robert Asprin (Yang the Nauseating) and our very
>own Dorothea of Caer Myrdinn (sp?). And, it goes without saying, Diana
Caer-Myrddin, actually.
>Listmaker (Diana Paxson) and Marion Zimmer Bradley (who's SCA name escapes me).
>See? All the nifty people are in the club.
Don't forget the Society sprouted out of fandom. The way Diana
tells it begins,
Once upon a time there was a scholar who lived in an
ivory tower. In that tower lived many other scholars who
spent their days reading books and writing papers about
what another scholar had said another scholar had said
ANOTHER scholar had said they used to do in the Middle Ages.
But the scholar of whom I speak was more fortunate, for
she sometimes left the ivory tower and went down into
the town, where she had friends of a most uncommon sort,
who played a game called fandom....
The original members of the Society fell into two categories: (a)
fandom (b) people who saw the flyer and were interested enough to
follow it up. Most of these were far enough out that they would've
been in fandom if they'd ever heard of it.
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
From: DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Duke Angus's trial - result
Date: 12 Apr 1994 04:28:51 GMT
Organization: Cornell Law School
Bettina Helms writes
> But what I was
> trying to say was that 1) Rakkurai has an evil reputation (deserved or
> otherwise) and 2) he's part of East Kingdom history regardless of what
> anybody thinks of him or says about him
I wonder if 1 is true, or if it reflects the particular people you happen
to have talked with. Rakkurai got involved in a very messy feud with his
ex-friend (I think ex-squire) Shlomo ben Shlomo, which was very unfortunate
for the kingdom, since people tended to take sides. But I would not have
said that he was a spectacularly bad king, and am curious as to whether he
has really attained that status in EK folklore.
Incidentally, I encountered Barry Green (Rakkurai) within the last year or
so--he seemed to be fine, and not obviously hiding from anyone.
--
David/Cariadoc
DDF2 at Cornell.Edu
From: Bettina.Helms at f38.n112.z1.interphase.com (Bettina Helms)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Duke Angus's trial - result
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 1994 00:01:38 -0500
-=> Quoting David Friedman to All <=-
DF> Bettina Helms writes
> But what I was
> trying to say was that 1) Rakkurai has an evil reputation (deserved or
> otherwise) and 2) he's part of East Kingdom history regardless of what
> anybody thinks of him or says about him
DF> I wonder if 1 is true, or if it reflects the particular people you
DF> happen to have talked with....
It is definitely true that Rakkurai has an evil reputation among people
who get their history at second and third hand (as everyone does who
wasn't there at the time). It is not necessarily true that he *deserves*
it - only his close acquaintances know that for sure. And it is quite
true that he is and always will be part of East Kingdom history -
although the slant applied may not be accurate or deserved either.
DF> But I would not have said that he was a spectacularly bad king, and
DF> am curious as to whether he has really attained that status in EK
DF> folklore.
Yes, Your Grace, he has. You of all people should know how the "folk
processing" of history works, since you are widely remembered as "the
king who declared war on himself - and lost". This even though you had
left the throne of the Middle by the time you moved to the East, and did
not win Crown in the East until after you had presented the war arrow
(to Rakkurai, as a matter of fact). It makes a better story the other
way, so that's the way it gets told.
Rakkurai is remembered as having by far the longest reign of any king of
the East (although I believe the records show that Murad's was slightly
longer), and as having tried to avoid handing over the crown by refusing
to hold a Crown Tourney and/or repeatedly postponing it (which may not
be true in the least, since early Crowns were held at *highly* irregular
intervals). It makes a more dramatic story that way.
... 100
* Origin: The Writer's Block, Jacksonville FL * 904/399-8854 (1:112/38.0)
From: memorman at happy.uccs.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: list of notables
Date: 9 May 94 17:41:22 MDT
Organization: University of Colorado at Boulder
arval disputes my identification of karina of the far west
(karen anderson) as the original laurel queen at arms (perhaps
better to say, the first laurel sovreign at arms. while
this may well be true, my memories go back very specifically
to as ten when she was running submissions nearly single-
handedly and average time to get a device passed was in
years not months. wilhelm took over soon after that and
streamlined/reorganized the process. if karina was not
the first head of the college of heralds, does anyone know
who was?
elaina de sinistre, o.p. currently of the outlands
--
*******************************************************************
* memorman at uccs.edu
* mary morman
* university of colorado, colorado springs
******************************************************************
From: locksley at indirect.com (Joe Bethancourt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: list of notables
Date: 10 May 1994 07:52:30 GMT
memorman at happy.uccs.edu wrote:
: arval disputes my identification of karina of the far west
: (karen anderson) as the original laurel queen at arms (perhaps
: better to say, the first laurel sovreign at arms. while
: this may well be true, my memories go back very specifically
: to as ten when she was running submissions nearly single-
: handedly and average time to get a device passed was in
: years not months. wilhelm took over soon after that and
: streamlined/reorganized the process. if karina was not
: the first head of the college of heralds, does anyone know
: who was?
: elaina de sinistre, o.p. currently of the outlands
Hm! Master Harold of Breakstone was the -first- Laurel Sovereign of Arms.
He is male. I was the second. I am male. Karina was the third. She is
-female-, and thus the first -female- LSoA.
--
locksley at indirect.com PO Box 35190 Locksley Plot Systems
White Tree Productions Phoenix, AZ 85069 USA CyberMongol Ltd
From: locksley at indirect.com (Joe Bethancourt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heralds, Past and Present
Date: 10 May 1994 07:55:40 GMT
memorman at happy.uccs.edu wrote:
: Regarding the history of heralds in the SCA:
: "locksley at indirect.com" has kindly given us Harold of Breakstone as
: the first Laurel King at Arms. Does he or anyone else know when? I
: have numerous very fond memories of Randall of Hightower in both the
: SCA and fandom, but none of them involve a word of heraldry, so this
: information comes as a surprise to me. Was he the second Laurel King
: at Arms - or simply an assistant to Harold of Breakstone? If he wasn't
: the second sovreign as arms, who was? When did Karina become Laurel
: Queen at arms?
See previous message.....Randall (may he rest in peace!) was Clarion KoA
under Harold of Breakstone, and served as his assistant.
: I seem to remember - from the ancient past - a time when those who
: wanted SCA arms were told that they had to pass not only the SCA heralds
: but some official heraldic body in England. Is my imagination playing
: tricks on me, or was this indeed the "word" in A.S. 5, 6, 7 or so?
They had to pass as "not resembling anything used in mundane heraldry,"
but that was about it.
: incidently, is "locksley at indirect.com" joseph of locksley?
None other than the infamous Ioseph indeed! (note spelling...) <grin!>
Who is still grumpy.
--
locksley at indirect.com PO Box 35190 Locksley Plot Systems
White Tree Productions Phoenix, AZ 85069 USA CyberMongol Ltd
From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA's Own History
Date: 29 May 1994 15:18:52 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
(Hal posting from Dorothy's account...)
In article <CqJ0G5.Mo3 at oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu>,
Craig Martin Levin <clevin at oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu> wrote:
>I have just finished reading Daniel Grotta's bio of Tolkien, and I
>found a curious reference to something that has to have been the
>earliest incarnation of the SCA. I quote _verbatim_ from pg. 138 of
>his work, _The_ _Biography_ _of_ _JRR_ _Tolkien_, _Architect_ _of_
>_Middle_ _Earth_:
>
>"Once _The_ _Lord_ _of_ _the_ _Rings_ achieved widespread
>popularity, a large number of Middle-earth <sic> spinoffs emerged
>both in America and England. For example, in Southern California,
>one hundred and fifty Tolkien fans gathered in a park to celebrate
>Bilbo's birthday, under the auspices of Diana Paxton <sic>, a
>graduate student who organized "The Elves, Gnomes and Little Men
>Science Fiction and Fantasy Chowder and Marching Society." <!>
>Everyone came dressed as a character from Tolkien and honored Bilbo
>with games, Elvish songs, mock battles, hobbit cookies, and
>malt cider. The picnic was so successful that those present decided
>to hold another festival in the spring, ostensibly to celebrate the
>destruction of the Ring. It too was in costume, and included a
>mushroom roll contest and a formal ceremony in which a mock ring was
>burned in a fire."
My what a garbled and confused account....
1. "Bilbo's Birthday" is usually considered to be Sept. 22nd.
2. The original party that started the SCA was May 1, 1966.
3. The Elves, Gnomes and Little Men's Science Fiction Chowder
and Marching Society still meets in Berekeley. It pre-dates the
SCA by many years. The Little Men used to (probably still do)
give out an annual award called the Invisible Little Man. It's a
pedestal with engraved plaque on the front and a pair of
footprints on top. Standing on the pedestal is a an Invisible
Little Man made from the very finest invisible bronze. There
was, at one time, a consderable overlap between active SCA
members and active Little Mens members. Especially in the days
when the Little Men met in J. Ben Stark's basement (mid- to
late-sixties).
4. The West Kingdom used to hold its Fall Crown Tourney as close
to Bilbo's Birthday as possible. As the fantasy elements thinned,
the emphasis changed to holding it as close as possible to the
Fall Equinox. From various factors over the years, it is now
held in early October. (Other West Kingdom Crown/Coronation
events are: March Crown--Vernal Equinox, Beltane
Coronation--May, 1 [founding date and Beltane], June
Crown--Summer Solstice, August Prurgatorio Coronation--late
August, 12th Night--6 January/12th Night.)
>Some comments-between the 2, they seem to be like events-A&S
>competition, subtleties at feast, fighting, filking, everyone in
>garb, etc. I like the name, but it doesn't have that nice ring that
>'SCA' has about it. Is Grotta an old-timer of the SCA? Were these 2
>parties for real? Are we really members of the E, G, and LM SF and F C
>and M Society?
The author seems to have conflated the origins of the SCA, the
Little Men, and the Mythopoeic Society. This appears to be an
object lesson in not believing everything you read.
--Hal Ravn
(Hal Heydt)
From: sandradodd at aol.com (SandraDodd)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Resigning peerages
Date: 16 Jun 1994 01:13:00 -0400
mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval d'Espas Nord) misquoted me; or rather
quoted someone else and attributed it to me.
It's of minor importance.
As far as I know the history of that policy (and Signy / Tracy Brown
reminded me by e-mail that it was in effect when she was on the
board, which was before I was a corporate officer, or right as I
became one, long time ago) it was in response to Atenveldt knights who
performed such exciting feats as declaring they were now masters and
putting their belts on as baldrics; wearing their chains in their
belts; and the greatest of all: throwing a chain in a fire
dramatically, only to sober up the next morning and come fishing in
the ashes. I don't know a particular name to stick to it, if there
was one, and it's likely there were stories in other kingdoms, but I
think if a guy claimed to quit, and witnesses felt he had, it didn't
prevent a person later from saying he had been made a peer and
therefor was one. I do NOT know, though, why the obstacle course of
letters to three places.
AElflaed
From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: What The Eric IS
Date: 27 Jun 1994 19:12:18 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Harold Kraus Jr <harald at ksu.ksu.edu> wrote:
>["Eric"] is regional. The only Calontiri I ever heard use it was
>HG William V'tavia (Humpk). Pavel calls me a "Westie" when
>I use it.
>
>What were the four colors of the original "eric"?
Red, white, and yellow; only over time they all faded to an
anonymous uniform grey. There wasn't any fourth.
>
>"Eric" is a SCAdianism, "list" is period (isn't it?).
Right on both counts.
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
PRO DEO ET REGE
From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: An Explanation of the Restructuring Proposal
Date: 11 Jul 1994 21:08:48 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
(Hal posting from Dorothy's account...)
In article <773765559.F00001 at ocitor.fidonet>,
Tim of Angle <Tim.of.Angle at f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org> wrote:
>Find the board member who has not been a
>peer since the BoD came into existence.
Trivially easy. *None* of the current Directors were in the
Society before incorporation--let alone Peers to the best of my
knowledge.
Can you show that any of them predate incorporation of the SCA?
The last Director I know of that was a Peer before the existence
of the Board was Dave Thewlis (Duke Siegfried von Hoeflichkeit)
who is a dinosaur (i.e. he was at the party in Diana's back
yard).
--Hal Ravn
(Hal Heydt)
From: mchance at crl.com (Michael A. Chance)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: The more things change...
Date: 24 Aug 1994 06:26:59 -0700
Ianthe d'Averoigne writes:
> I pose a point for general discussion:
> How has the SCA changed over time, especially since
> AS X?
For me, there have been two major changes in the nearly 14 years that
I've played (starting in the southwestern Midrealm in AS 16):
First, the good: A much higher level of re-creation in most areas.
We've managed to get a tremendous amount of research and information
into the SCA over the years. New member costumes that would have been
acceptable when I started aren't now; you'd be quickly hustled over to
the Gold Key's loaner closet (which also didn't exist, for the most
part, 10 or 15 years ago). While there are still the really awful
looking stuff (clothes, armor, heraldry, feast gear, general kit,
etc.), it's becoming more and more outlier as the overall level of
authenticity has risen. It's a slow process, but it's happening.
Second, the bad: In this area, at least, it's nearly impossible to
find a "small" (75 persons or less) event, especially if it's on the
kingdom calendar in the newsletter. I have some of my fondest
memories from my early years of such events, with perhaps only a few
peers in attendance, and more time for fun and talk. It's too bad
that new, small groups get swamped at their first few events by lots
of "helpful" neighbors trying to "help make it a successful event" by
boosting the attendance to 150+, when they'd be a lot more comfortable
hosting much less than 100.
Mikjal Annarbjorn
--
Michael A. Chance St. Louis, Missouri, USA "At play in the fields
Work: mc307a at sw1stc.sbc.com of St. Vidicon"
Play: mchance at crl.com
mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Address List Selling?
From: schuldy at zariski.harvard.edu (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Date: 20 Aug 94 12:37:01 EDT
nsmca at aurora.alaska.edu writes:
Is the SCA ED selling mailing lists?
Addresses and such?
Oh, geez, why not ask an inflammatory question, eh? (:-)
The Society has, in the past, made membership lists available to officers,
as well as having provided them with membership lists that contain
addresses. There is a $3 charge for those lists, but some officers claim
they received them unsolicited, and for free.
To the best of my knowledge, they were always provided to officers only,
although with no formal restrictions on use. It was always assumed that they
would be used for correct purposes only.
Since I became a member around 1984, The Society has sold the mailing list
one time, to MBNA in order to promote an affinity credit card. I gather
that the Corporation has since switched its stance, and is now trying to end
that contract. The list has not yet been delivered.
It has been ordered by the court to make the mailing list available to
members involved in impeachment petitions, for use in direct mailings to
members of petitions and supporting documents. Of course that litigation is
still active.
I have heard tales of how the membership list had been "pirated" once a very
long time ago, and used for a direct mailing for encyclopedia sales, but I
gather that was done when the Society was much smaller, done without the
knowledge of the Board, and punished. Some controls over the mailing list
were created at that time. I have no further details, and heard this from
only one source, if a reliable one.
I think that, given the litigation over the membership list, the current
Executive Directors response to that litigation, and the attempt to reverse
the MBNA sale that has been reported informally, that the chances of anyone
getting a mailing list out of the SCA Incorporated right now are slim to
none. We shall see, however.
Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy at math.harvard.edu)
<the end>