Home Page

Stefan's Florilegium


This document is also available in: text or RTF formats.

East-hist-msg – 11/16/13


Histories of the East Kingdom in the SCA.


NOTE: See also the files: SCA-hist1-msg, SCA-stories1-msg, placenames-msg, vanity-plates-msg, you-know-msg, border-stories-msg, AEthel-hist-msg.





This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.


This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org


I have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.


The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given  by the individual authors.


Please respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these messages. The copyright status  of these messages  is  unclear  at this time. If information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give credit to the originator(s).


Thank you,

   Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                         Stefan at florilegium.org



The East never recovers from anything. Each new Great Screaming Control

Issue just moves the others further backward in the baggage train.


-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika



From: salley at niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Gay Consort.

Date: 28 Jul 94 21:43:53 GMT

Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208


Kenit McGregor

> Say a gentleman wins the crown tourney (if your local group goes for them)

> and instead of wanting a lady to sit with him as King/Queen, he wishes for a

> male friend to sit with him. (please no joke about King/Queen, grin).


It's been tried.  First of all, you have to declare who you're fighting for

_before_ you fight in the Crown or Coronet Tourney.  When this occurred during

the reign of Prince Yngvar, here in AEthelmearc, Yngvar publicly told him,

"If it's okay with the BoD, it's okay with me."  It was NOT okay with the

BoD. To quote the response, "One biological male, one biological female,

we don't care who fights for who."  Which also takes care of your second



                                                      - Dagonell


SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr

Habitat          : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony

Internet    : salley at niktow.cs.canisius.edu

USnail-net : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: fridrikr at world.std.com (tom irelanddelfs)

Subject: Re: guatemala

Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA

Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 12:32:58 GMT


ALBAN at delphi.COM writes:


>Peter G. Rose | Azelin, of Wishford Hall asks:

>>Just out of curiosity, who or what is the Captain-

>>general of Guatamala, and what's he/she/it doing

>>at the bottom of the EOP?

>Well, son, many, many years ago, far away in the

>mists of memory of our forefathers, yea, verily,

>further than the memories of man runneth to the

>contrary....er, ah, well, about 15 years ago, there

>was a MidRealm Crown Tourney. One of the entrants

>(I believe it was Naitan? Nathan? My spelling has

>gone downhill with my memory...) had very recently

>gotten back to the States from an extended tour of

>duty with a certain military group in Guatemala (in

>other words, damned if I can remember which

>group). Crown Tourney, the day he entered, was

>particularly hot and humid, to the point where a lot

>of the fighters were panting, sweating, and

>generally suffering. A couple even had to drop out

>of the tourney from heat prostration (not actually

>"drop", but it did come close...) Our hero, Nathan,

>having survived that type of weather for the

>previous year or two, thought it was wonderful; he

>had no trouble staying in, and in fact enjoyed the

>temps and humidity so much he actually *won*.

>During the course of his princedom, and later his

>kingship, he, ummm, suffered? enjoyed? lots of

>shtick about why he'd won. This is why, to this day,

>the MidRealm claims Guatemala as its own, and

>why there are occasional references to the Road to

>Guatemala. I believe Nathan is also the C-G of

>Guatemala for this reason.


>alban, who thinks there should be a book of sca-

>related stories such as these. we need to get our

>*own* history back. anyone wanna hear why the

>people in the barony of three rivers used to toast,

>at every feast, "to the queen's moustache"?


Oh, Alban, you were told BAD information.  In the East, also many years

ago (16?  I know I was there!)  there lived one Algernon Hartesmond,

seneschal of Concordia, defender of the faith, slayer of the evil James

the Usurper - but that's another story - and, after a bit, Peace Corp

volunteer in, guess where, yep you got it.  Anyway, upon his imminent

departure the Crown awarded him the title you have so neatly lifted for

Nathan. It still appears at the end of the EK Precedence March - so

there's a fossilized artifact for you.  And you can ask him (Algernon)






From: steffan at world.std.COM (Steven H Mesnick)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Capt.-Gen. of Guatemala

Date: 31 Jul 1994 23:37:51 -0400


This comes up up regularly. Maybe we need an FAQ on it %^) ....


Azelin asks what the Captaincy-General of Guatemala is. This is

traditionally the very last entry on the Eastern Order of Precedence.


Baron (then Lord) Algernon Hartesmond was a well-known Easterner. He was

the founder of Concordia-of-the-Snows (Albany, NY), a Hordesman, and a bard

of note. And then he disappeared, having joined a mundane order called the

Peace Corps and gone on a mission far to the South, to a place called



One day, he returned, and appeared at the Court of the King of the East,

the renowned Gyrth Oldcastle. Gyrth was pleased to see his friend and

subject, and asked him where he had been, and on what business. Algernon

told him he had been far to the South, in lands claimed by none of the

Laurel kings (of which there were but five at the time).


Now, Gyrth was (and is) a most wise and learned man, and he knew that these

lands had of old been claimed by the King of Spain, who had placed them

under a viceroy, styled the Captain-General of Guatemala (for such was the

whole land known in those days, which is now many sovereign nations). And

he knew that the office had been in abeyance for many long years. He

therefore determined to assert his claim to the lands his subject had

explored, and called the Captaincy-General out of abeyance in his own

right, naming Algernon to that office.


Algernon resigned the office at the coronation of Siegfried I of glorious

memory, but the office remains in the gift of the Eastern crown -- the

claims of the Outlands to all lands south of Ansteorra notwithstanding.

(Sounds to me like a good excuse for a war....<grin>).


Baron Algernon Hartesmond has not been seen in the Knowne Worlde for

many years, but the rune of his philosopher's engine is thus:

dryfoo at athena.mit.edu .


        Steffan ap Cennydd

        Sometime Royal Eastern Historian



From: Kim.Salazar%em at mailgw.er.doe.GOV

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re:  SCAthian authors/artists

Date: 29 Aug 1994 15:43:54 -0400


   Rumor from the past:

   The Hagar the Horrible's artist was rumored to be SCA-literate

   after a series of strips circa 1978, which contained a Knight of

   Incredible Size and Prowess, who just happened to be sporting the

   arms (if the rumor is to be believed) of the immortal Sir Paul of



   Other rumored SCA-friends (and probably members) of the time:

   The brothers Hildebrandt, illustrators of SF/fantasy fame.  I

   believe they did the art for the original Sword of Shinerra (sp).

   At the time many gentles swore that those illustrations contained

   familiar faces.


   And finally:  If the C.S. Friedman, active SF/fantasy writer, is

   indeed the same Celia S. Friedman I roomed with at college

   (highly likely!), she was known as Lady Adrienne of Huntington.

   Along with Lady Ariel she co-founded Fenmere, (Brandeis

   University group circa 1974-1979).  She also fenced for the

   college team, and was of the early popularizers of fencing in the



   Kim Brody Salazar/Ianthe d'Averoigne, OR, OL

   Forever a Carolingian   salazark%em at mailgw.er.doe.gov



From: folo at prairienet.org (F.L. Watkins)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: newcomer querys

Date: 26 Sep 1994 22:38:30 GMT

Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana


Back in the reign of Finnvarr and Caellyn, the curia set out 500

as the beginning date. It was never set into law and has, for the

most part, been neglected.


I still think it's a good idea.


Yrs, Folo


Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - folo at prairienet.org

Baron Wurm Wald (MidRealm) - Commander Baldwin's (NWTA)



From: Neil Maclay <nmaclay at mitre.org>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: History of SCA fighting

Date: 18 Nov 1994 17:43:21 GMT

Organization: Planning Systems, Inc. (PSI)


In article <1994Nov17.155159.37047 at taurus.bsuvc.bsu.edu> Shop

Smart...Shop S-Mart!, 00pfpogue at bsuvc.bsu.edu writes:

>      I'd like to hear, through posts or email, what opinions all of you

on the

> bridge have on this subject, whether the persons named be Society-wide

> phenomenons or Kingdom legends.  All I ask is that you generall believe


> this person had something of an influence on the way your entire

kingdom or the

> Society itself fought.  I'm hoping to gain at least a general idea of

how our

> unique martial art came to evolve over the years.


In the East Kingdom I believe that Mistress Morgan Allandris (SP?) was

important in the early development of organized group tactics.  Also in

the East Sir Sigfried von Holstearn is famous as an individual fighter

and as a leader.


In Atlantia Sir Gyrth Oldcastle developed a distinct sword and shield

style that has proven to be very successful in tournament fighting over

the years.  He has also written a small book describing his style.  Does

anyone know if this book is still available and how to get it?  If so

please post.


Also in Atlantia, Sir Strykar, Sir Baschamp Paul, and Sir Steffan of

Wolfshaven developed the "three stooges style" of fighting.  This style

includes a highly developed style of two sword and of greatsword fighting

emphasizing footwork and circularity of movement.  These elements also

dominate the "stoogic" styles of sword and shield.


I would consider Sir Gyrth and Sir Strykar the two main theorists of

fighting in Atlantia though their are many others who teach fighters to

fight well.


Master Malcolm MacMalcolm, Marshal

mka Neil Maclay

Barony of Storvic - Atlantia

mka Wash. D.C. area



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (TRISTAN CLAIR DE LUNE/KEN MONDSCHEIN)

Subject: Re: History of SCA fighting

Organization: University at Buffalo

Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 22:58:37 GMT


        Morgan Elandris (AKA Our Lady Saint Morgan Elandris, but if you

tell her I said that she'll rip my head off) was instrumental in teaching

the East how to fight as a unit, especially the Rhydderich Hael barony.

She also trained a whole slew of knights, including a Duke or two (Hanno,

for one...) She's also in the real-life military, has horses, and does all

sorts of cool stuff. And makes nice cloaks. I think I'll make her a Peer

once I win Crown :)





From: David Schroeder <ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: SCA Authors <long>

Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 21:36:27 -0500

Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA


Margaret Fraser, author of the Sister Frevisse mysteries,

(The Novice's Tale, the Outlaw's Tale, her new book, The Bishop's Tale,

et cetera) is a pseudonym for Mary Monica Pulver and a co-author

whose name I always forget (help me out Nordskogen folks!).


And the brothers Hildebrandt attended the coronation of Gyrth

and Melisande in the ancient days of the East (I was site autocrat).

I'm not sure if they came to any other events, though.


My best -- Bertram



From: zkessin at ppp3253.wing.net (Zach)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Odin Akbar

Date: 30 Dec 1994 10:26:22 GMT

Organization: Wilder Internet Gateway, Boston, MA


Akbar was also the an early King of the East. He bears the distiction

of being one of the few (if not the only one) to have been prince

while his biological father was king. (And Vice versa)



Collector of odd Trivia



From: salley at niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: A historical perspective...

Summary: Myrkfaellin

Date: 23 Apr 95 19:04:34 GMT

Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208


[Hal posting from Dorothy's account....] writes:


>         (from _The Page_, September AS IX)

> At the July meeting, actions included the passing of the above;

> confirmation of Richard of Alsace as Seneschal of the Middle Kingdom;

> a provision that a member of the Order of the Laurel may petition to

> receive a Pelican in its stead, should he so desire; note taken that

> T.I. #28 was ready to be mailed; and the acceptance of new branch, to

> be called Myrkfaellin (in which Kingdom they don't say).


The Dominion of Myrkfaellin is within the Kingdom of the East, Principality of

AEthelmearc. Note that I say `within', not `part of'.  It was Myrkfaellin

that caused the BoD to re-write a lot of their New Group Procedures.


The petition was written in authentic Old Icelandic.  One of their members

earned his doctorate in Old Icelandic studies.  No translation was provided.

The document stated they were in fealty to King Osborne(?) of the East,

not to the King of the East in general, just Osborne!  When he stepped down,

the Dominion proclaimed that they were NOT in fealty to anyone, they were

analogous to the Vatican City in Italy, they were surrounded by, but NOT

a part of the East Kingdom.  Events in Myrkfaellin do tend to be `interesting'

;-) ;-)  If you're not from the Dominion, your feast token is a passport.

If the King wants to come, he has to negotiate as if visiting a foreign

power. I'm sure Purple will fill in details I missed.


                                                      - Dagonell

                                      (who was once given the Queen of

                                      the East as a present by John the

                                      Pell while in Myrkfaellin ;-)


SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr

Habitat          : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony

Internet    : salley at cs.canisius.edu  (Please use this, reply may not work.)

USnail-net : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: fridrikr at world.std.com (Thomas W Delfs)

Subject: Re: Longest-active SCA members

Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 22:19:44 GMT


djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:


>In article <1995Jun12.122422 at blah.bsuvc.bsu.edu>,

>The Morgenstern Under the Mountain <morgenstern at blah.bsuvc.bsu.edu> wrote:


>>...Who, as far as anyone knows, is the longest-running member of

>>the SCA?  ....  Are any of the attendees of the original

>>event of May, 1966, still active at all in the SCA?




>These are all in the West Kingdom.


>I still see Mistress Elfreida of Greenwalls (Marion Zimmer Bradley)

>fairly often, but she doesn't do SCA any more.  But she still lives

>in Berkeley.


>Any Dinosaurs still active in other Kingdoms?


>Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin        Dorothy J. Heydt

>Mists/Mists/West                  UC Berkeley

>Argent, a cross forme'e sable          djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu


I suspect that at 19+ years, both Baroness Daedra MacBeth a Gryphon and I

rank as "very ancient newbies" of the East.  Count Sir Jehan de la Marche

and Sir Garanhir of Ness are still active in AEthelmearc, and Duke

Asbjorn has been known to show at practices and events in Sterlyng Vayle

(Binghamton, NY) from time to time.





From: aa101159 at dasher.csd.scarolina.edu (Virginia Gray)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Longest-active SCA members

Date: 13 Jun 1995 16:47:17 GMT

Organization: Univ. of South Carolina, Columbia


Let's not forget Sir Trude (or is it Trudy?), who's first event was A.S.I

anniversary. I know she lives in East kingdom, but I'm not sure exactly

where. I met her at an Atlantian event a couple weekends ago.


Ldy Rachel Wallace



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Longest-active SCA members

From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)

Date: Wed, 14 Jun 95 09:11:25 EDT


fridrikr at world.std.com (Thomas W Delfs) writes:

> I suspect that at 19+ years, both Baroness Daedra MacBeth a Gryphon and I

> rank as "very ancient newbies" of the East.  Count Sir Jehan de la Marche

> and Sir Garanhir of Ness are still active in AEthelmearc, and Duke

> Asbjorn has been known to show at practices and events in Sterlyng Vayle

> (Binghamton, NY) from time to time.



        Respected friend:

        Hiya, kid! I celebrated my 21st SCA anniversary last december 27th-

and I _think_ Jarl Aelfwine has me beat.

        The East used to have "Sabre-tooth Tygers"... people who were active

here before the first king of the East was crowned. Marion of Edwinstowe

_might_ be one.


                               Yours in service to the Society-

                               (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk R.S.F.

                               Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA

                               Una Wicca (That Pict)



From: salley at niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: The Status of Myrkfaelen, is it really ruled by Aethelmarc?

Date: 23 Jun 95 12:46:29 GMT

Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208


Viscount Edward Zifran of Gendy, KSCA, OL, OP, ETC (E. F. MORRILL) writes:

> (Bryan Maloney) writes:

> {previous remarks deleted}

>>Myrkfaelen is most certainly NOT part of the Principality of Aethelmarc, nor

>>is it in any way part of the East Kingdom.  Myrkfaelen is an Independent

>>Dominion, holding alliegence to no Crown, nor King, nor Prince.  


> Allow me to suggest, that if that is true, Then why is it it seems, that

> no-one in Mykfaelan seems to turn down an East Kingdom award, if one is

> offered? The reality is that Mykfaelan "Is"part of the East.


Are you kidding?  It took six men to carry John the Pell into court and

force him to his knees in front of the king to be made a member of the

Chivalry. And that was _after_ he had turned it down FOUR times!  And

he still chose Master rather than swear fealty.


                                                      - Dagonell


SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr

Habitat          : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony

Internet    : salley at cs.canisius.edu  (Please use this, reply may not work.)

USnail-net : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029



From: mittle at panix.com (Josh Mittleman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: The Status of Myrkfaelen, is it really ruled by Aethelmarc?

Date: 23 Jun 1995 11:21:39 -0400

Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC


Greetings from Arval!


Orlando Alvarez wrote:


> In an earlier post, Supillilumous forgot to mention that John the Pell

> turned down a Court Barony (in the same event that Sup.. turned down his

> OTC) for similar reasons.


I was court herald at that court, and I would swear that it was an AoA that

Sup. refused.  


Cariadoc quoted someone (sorry, I missed the name), talking about the

Myrkfaelinn charter:


> I would think then that you might remind those folks that the Charter

> also says, in one form or another, that they shall hold those lands

> until, and only until the Crown that granted it shall arise again.


No, I'm afraid that's just local interpretation of the charter.  All the

charter actually said was that Myrkfaelinn swore allegiance to the king,

Asbjorn, rather than to the kingdom.


Dagonell wrote:


: Are you kidding?  It took six men to carry John the Pell into court and

: force him to his knees in front of the king to be made a member of the

: Chivalry.  And that was _after_ he had turned it down FOUR times!  


I'm pretty certain, Dagonell, that legend has been inflating this story.  I

don't think it was four times.  It might have been once.  But he was

certainly carried bodily into court, and not for the first time.





From: mittle at panix.com (Josh Mittleman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Resignations & procedures

Date: 2 Aug 1995 15:56:56 -0400

Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC


Greetings from Arval!  Mikjal wrote:


> Unfortunately, the Board has a rather shaky record WRT to dealing with

> the "Society" side of things.  Matters that *should* be dealt with in a

> limited, localized fashion seem to inevitably lead to intrusive,

> Society-wide restrictions, regulations, and prohibitions, affecting large

> numbers of participants completely unrelated with the original

> incident. ... While I recognize the desireability of having a "court of

> last resort" similar to the U.S. Supreme Court, that "court" should also

> be able (and willing) to say to the involved parties "Not within our

> scope or jurisdiction - case returned to lower court for decision".


To be honest, the Board does that in many cases.  Not often enough, but it



One problem is that the Board, by its own policy, prefers to deal with

"issues" rather than specific problems.  The unfortunate result of this

apparently-admirable policy is that when a director encounters a problem

that he feels _needs_ Board action, he has to cast it as a general issue,

formulate a general solution, and apply that solution globally, even if the

problem is isolated and specific.  I call this problem "using a sledge

hammer where a jeweler's mallet will do."  When Sedalia was EK seneschal,

she was particularly guilty of this error.  For example, early in her

tenure she was faced with a problem with a local seneschal.  She felt that

the seneschal really needed to be removed from office, for a variety of

reasons. But she felt that she could not simply remove him; she needed a

Policy. So she instituted a kingdom-wide term limit on local seneschals,

with complicated procedures for applying for a waiver.  Every branch in the

kingdom had to deal with the fallout from a problem in a single shire.  


A second, and more fundamental problem, is that the SCA's structure, by its

nature and by statute, does not allow _anyone_ except the Board to make a

binding decision.  Corpora tells us that _any_ decision can be appealed all

the way to the Board.  And so, of course, people appeal.  This has two

negative effects.  First, simple local problems are escalated to the

national level when they ought to be handled closer to home.  Second,

officers can act recklessly without having to worry about taking

responsibility for their actions; they can always blame someone else for

not making use of the appeal proccess.





Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: levey at netcom.com (Don Levey)

Subject: Re: Worst Garb or Armor????

Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)

Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 15:34:54 GMT


In article <3v81tf$e3 at newsbf02.news.aol.com>,

IMAsgard <imasgard at aol.com> wrote:

>   A collection of the worst armor in the Known world can be seen in

>Trimaris, in the possession of Duke Erin.  That is to say, he is the

>curator of the museum of "horrible helms".  This collection was started


>     HRH Baldar/A. Cooley

Nothing (in my mind, at least) would compare to the official

"Great Helm of Carolingia."  This helm has an ancient and venerable

history, most of which I am sure to get wrong (but that's the fun with

legends, isn't it?).


Seems in the early days of the East, when there were but two groups

(Ostgardr and Carolingia), some folks from Carolingia wanted to go

to a real tournament.  Now, they had heard about this fighting stuff,

and with great eagerness prepared for the long trip down to NY from

Boston. Since they had heard that the fighters hit each other with

something bamboo-like, they did a bit of practicing and also made

armor. The crowning piece, if you will, was the afforementioned

helm: lovingly crafted from state-of-the-art fibreglass at MIT.

Then it was padded with open-cell foam, and brought to NY for the



The Marshal in charge looked at this thing, and decided that perhaps

it was not safe.  After all, fibreglass is likely to crack, isn't it?

He therefore put said helm on the ground and gave it a good whack with

his rataan.  Sproing!!  as it flew away.  It was retrieved, and whacked

again. Sproing!! as it flew once again.  And lo, it did not crack, for

he did not count on the skill of the Mitgaard craftsman.  With a shrug,

he passed it, but seeing the sort of abuse both the helm and head inside

it would need to take, the wearer exercised the better part of valor

and chose instead to watch the tournament.


I'm sure that there are corrections to be made here.  However, the helm

itself (which I have seen and indeed worn) would deserve a place in such

a museum.  What it lack in aesthetic offensiveness is more than made

up by the concept.





Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Cloved Fruit

From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 10:18:11 EST


gl8f at fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes:

> Mary Spila <mms6824 at tntech.edu> wrote:

> >Could/would someone PLEASE give me a brief history of how the game of passin

> >cloved fruit was introduced to the SCA.  I am doing a brief class on the gam

> >(emphasizing "Don't be a jerk") and would like some more information than wh

> >I already know.


> I've never heard anyone claim that they knew the origin of this game,

> other than vague rumblings that it originated 15+ years ago in

> Carolingia.  It does seem to have died out in Atlantia. There was one

> attempt to revive it last weekend, but I don't think it was very well

> received.  And my lady threw out this lovely pomander that the queen

> herself gave me, the nerve!


> Gregory Blount


        Respected friend:

        I know the origins. It was invented out of whole cloth. I did it.*

I'm sorry.

        (check out the Feb. issue of Re-creating History magazine for an

article on more authentic kissing games.)  }:->

        By the way, it started in Canton of the Towers, which is a canton of,

but is two days older than, Carolingia.



*(Lisa Goldenstar helped.)


                               Honour, known societally as

                               Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf; or

                               Una Wicca (That Pict)



From: djl at telerama.lm.com (Don Luby)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pennsic War Points

Date: 13 Mar 1996 12:39:29 -0500

Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PA


DAVID RAZLER (david.razler at compudata.com) wrote:

>   Seriously, I question the need and the desirability to allow any

> area to succeed from the East.


If you lived in AEthelmearc, you'd understand why there has been a

need, for some years now, for us to go our own way, separate from the

East. It's unfortunate that some gentles in the remainder of the East

wish us to stay, but it's well past the point of happy reconciliation.


> We have lost much of our land already,

> and the establishment of a couple of additional principalities to cover

> the entire kingdom should ease these insane quests to chop apart our

> tradition.


Here's fallacy:  there is no one singular 'Eastern tradition',

especially in the places that have (or want to) go kingdom.  There may

be a 'core' Eastern tradition in the areas in a direct line from

Bhakail to Ostgardr to almost-Carolingia (who have their own

traditions, which pre-date the East's), but even along there there is

much variation, the farther you get from Otsgardr.  This is largely

because when there groups got started, they played their own way

because they were so far away from the center of the kingdom that they

*had* to do that to survive, even if they amalgamated bits of core

Eastern tradition later when they got more active on a kingdom-wide


As an example (based on a conversation had a post-revel after Ice

Dragon this past weekend):  When most of the 'founding fathers of

AEthelmearc' joined the SCA, ~20 years ago, there was a total of one

knight in all of what is now AEthelmearc (and he moved out of kingdom

shortly thereafer), let alone peers of any other kind.  

Travel time to the 'central East' (Ostgardr, Bhakail, Carolingia)

was 8+ hrs by car, and so there was little direct contact between the

groups, except by various brave individuals.  Once there were a few

chivalry (and royal peers), this opened up more, but there was a

strong local idea of what the SCA was like, independent of core

Eastern tradition, and since that was what was believed by the (then-)

old-timers, that's what the newbies were brought up to believe as


So what you have is 5 - 10 SCA generations' worth of AEthelmearc

tradition, which is stronger in AEthelmearc than core Eastern

tradition, and is a main reason why we want / need to have our own

kingdom ("We are our own nationality; we deserve our own nation" -

Benj. Franklin).


> The East has lost far too much of its populace and land over the years.


And it's happening to every other large (geographical) kingdom in

the known world:  Lochac is next in line (I think) after AEthelmearc,

especially due to geographic distances; the Middle will lose

Ealdormere and possibly Northshield after that; and Atenvelt may lose

Artemesia. Not to mention all of the proto-principailty movements all

over the known world.

BTW, except for Drachenwald, which had been waiting since its

inception to go kingdom, and went as soon as they had the native

population and total numbers, the East has only ever 'lost' Atlantia,

and that was 15 yrs ago!


> I can see it now, first AEthelmearch, then Carolingia, etc.

> until the East consists entirely of the current Wetlands Confederation.


Actually, from what I've been led to believe, if the Northern Region

principality movement ever gets off the ground, and does go kingdom,

the East will then consist of the Phila - NYC - Hudson Valley

corridor, with some bits off to the side in both diretions (Delaware,

eastern PA, NJ, eastern upstate NY, Connecticut).  While that's a far

cry from what the size of the East used to be (or will used have

been), you're still talking about the most densely populated part of

the country, and it will still have a population to rival any kingdom

in the known world.


> Of course, if we would do away with the current method of selecting our

> royalty, it might reduce the desire of those who want their own king (or

> mainly, to *be* king), etc. to divide the land.


AEthelmearc's desire for freedom has little to do with this, it has

largely due to the fact the East is too big, and being out on the

relative fringes, we feel the effects from it even more.  And even

then, it'll still be a problem for both of us:  Now, from Port Oasis

to Ruantallan is a ~35 hr drive; afterwards, Port Oasis to Coppertree

will still be 15+ hours, and Blak Rose to Ruanatallan will still be

20+ hours.


>             In Service to the East and crying Death! to its enemies

>                         both internal and external,

>                          Aleksandr the Traveller

>                       [david.razler at compudata.com]

>                      A "Free" AEthelmearc be Damned




Don Luby                                         Magariki Katsuichi no Koredono

djl at telerama.lm.com                                                CSC, CM, CTC

http://www.lm.com/~djl/home.html                              Yama-kaminari-ryu

Pittsburgh, PA                    Cour d'Or, Debatable Lands, AEthelmearc, East



From: Tom Courtney <vis at shore.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Kingdom Annexation!

Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 17:55:09 +0000

Organization: Living Paper


Morgoth wrote:

> What keeps Baronies from moving over to another Principality or Kingdom?


Only the will of the residents. It happens occasionally. Myrkwood moved from the

East to Atlantia, where it eventually became Lochmere (I'm abreviating a lot of

history here.)


Tom Courtney

aka Vissevald Selkirksson



From: greycat at tribeca.ios.com (Greycat Sharpclaw)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Kingdom Annexation!

Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 00:42:53 GMT


Emrys sends greetings onto all upon this bridge:


There is an allegation that Morgoth <morgoth at nome.net> wrote:


>What is to keep a person from winning more than one crown tourney, one in

>say AnTir and another in the West, and then to combine the Two Crown, how

>far could he/she do it, and what keeps it from happening? and Why not?


Well, don't most kingdoms have residency requirements for their

monarchs? Of course, moving after crown complicates things.


Also, in the East, the law would forbid a King/Queen or Crown

Prince/Princess from entering crown.  Do other Kingdoms have a

similar law?


Of course, there _was_ the incident that helped make the law.

King Michael of Bedford (of the East) entered then-principality's

Atlantia's first crown tourney, and won.  About a month after he

crowned Sigfried as his successor in the East, Sigfried crowned

him to make Atlantia independent.


Lord Emrys Cador               David M. Mann

Barony of Settmour Swamp       greycat at tribeca.ios.com




From: greycat at tribeca.ios.com (Greycat Sharpclaw)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Bad Crowns

Date: Sat, 07 Dec 1996 04:03:59 GMT

Organization: IDT


robnbrwn at gnn.com (Robin Brown) wrote:


>In article <588b44$bjd at nnrp4.farm.idt.net> Greycat Sharpclaw wrote:

>>It does require all participants to preregister for the tourney (by

>>submitting "letters of intent"), thus a king can bounce an

>>unacceptable fighter before hand, under various provisions.


>What kind of provisions?  I mean, obviously, one must be in compliance with

>membership and similar rules, but are the other provisions for exclusion

>written or merely traditional?



Well, as I said in my origional post, I know of no case that this was

done. I do not know that it has occured, but that may only mean that

(1) it is uncommon, and (2) was never widely pubically debated.


It is written that the contestants must "be acceptable to the crown".

But usually this clause is used by the crown to add requirements for

eligibility *beforehand*, beyond those in copora and kingdom law.  A

specific rejection of an individual would, as I judge the attitudes of

my fellow Easterners, be seen as an extreme action requiring an

extreme reason.


Any one who has personal knowledge of such a rejection is encouraged

to jump in here.



BTW... there is an old incident in the East where a fighter was

removed during a crown, and replaced in the list.  The replacement won

the tourney.  There is much Eastern history based on the resulting

controversy, but as I have only stories to go on, I'll not risk

repeating any errors here.  But a key point is that this occured

*during* the tourney... it is not a precident (in the East or

elsewhere) for nullifying the result, nor for rejecting a contender.


And there was a crown nullified when the winner was found to not be

legal under the rules.  But again, this is a case totally unlike

Atenveldt's current one.



But there was a case of a territorial prince being removed in the

East... naturally that one ended up before the BoD shortly thereafter.

(The king ruled that the Prince had tried to rig Coronet, and

*demanded* abdication, under threat of repeating the demand in open



The BoD - finding the rules on the subject vague - backed the king's

right to make his own interpretation of the (vague) rules.  This *may*

serve as precident for the Atenveldt case.  I stress "may" - if the

rules here are more precise, there is less room for free

interpretation by the crown.


Lord Emrys Cador               David M. Mann

Barony of Settmour Swamp       greycat at tribeca.ios.com




From: dickeney at access1.digex.net (Dick Eney)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: "Indestructable" shields

Date: 24 Jan 1997 12:40:06 -0500

Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA


Bryan J. Maloney <bjm10 at cornell.edu> wrote:

>timbeck at ix.netcom.com(Tim Beck) wrote:

>> coat of gesso.  All in all SCA shields work a lot like the historical

>> ones.  There are refernces to tourney shields that were built to fall

>Ah, but are they struck full-force with sharp, steel weapons?  How to

>simulate the effects of real weapons upon shields when the weapons used

>are rattan and some even padded?


Tamar the Gypsy (sharing account dickeney at access.digex.net) here writes:


In the early years of the East Kingdom, a fighter who had really good

shield work caught all his opponents' blows on the same place on the edge

of his round shield; halfway through the tourney, the rattan blows had

"dented" the plywood all the way to the handgrip.  This being the early

years, the fighter reversed his grip and held the shield the other way

around. By the end of the tourney, the same had happened again, and the

shield had been cut in two by repeated blows of rattan.

Since then, edge strengthening has been an important part of constructing

a shield.


=Tamar the Gypsy (sharing account dickeney at access.digex.net)



Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 21:22:06 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: SC - OT - Crown Province


> and I keep reading Adamantius' signature to declare him crown

>prince of Ostgardr.

>Rhiannon Cathaoir-mor

>South Downs, Meridies


Okay, here's the deal. I don't live in a Barony, I live in a Province,

specifically a Crown Province. For practical purposes, in the SCA a

landed Baron is given the land as his fiefdom, to hold for the Crown. A

Crown Province is the Crown's land, held by the Crown, and a

representative of the Crown rules. Instead of having a Baron and

Baroness, we have a Viceroy and Vicereine.


In theory, we're sorta kinda the capital of the East Kingdom, and its

oldest group. Once upon a time, we _were_ the East. In practice, now,

we're pretty much like any other barony.


Maybe someone who actually has been a Prince(ss) or other monarch-y type

can provide corrections or additional info.



A Resident of the Crown _Province_ of Østgardr, in the East Kingdom



Subject: ANST - Fw: [MercInn] Home groujps and fighting for pay.

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 99 06:56:02 MST

From: "Cody Chezem" <odin at okom.net>

To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>


----- Original Message -----

From: Blackburn, Eric <eblackburn at mail.magee.edu>

To: <mercenariesinn at egroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 9:21 AM

Subject: [MercInn] Home groujps and fighting for pay.


> The Mountain Confederation was formed by a number of fighters in central

> Pennsylvania when these people were completely ignored by the people on the

> east coast where most activity was, in those days.  (This was before I

> joined).  As the crowned heads of the East Kingdom decided that the

> inhabitants of Nithgard, Abian Ciac Glas (forigve the spelling) and other

> groups were not worthy of notice, the founders of Confed decided to return

> the favor.  They sent the word: "You want us to fight for you, you pay us."

> The word came back, "Fat chance."

> Things changed after the first few battles.  Then the East started making

> offers.  Some years have been good, with lots of beer, ice, firewood and

> baubles.  Other years have been bad, with offers which were insulting. Some

> kings refused to hire mercenaries from their own kingdom.

> And awards were fewer, recognition faint, scorn great.  When I received my

> invitation to join Confed, it was phrased as "Do you want to give up any

> chance for advancement in the SCA?" to which I replied 'Hell yes!"

> Some years ago, however, Prince Lucan of AEthelmearc gave us our official

> charter, recognizing us as a free household who owed fealty only to honor.

> He also made us a, well, "princely" offer to fight for him in the field

> battle at Pennsic.  He wasn't disappointed.

> Now AEthelmearc is a kingdom.  And we are spread across several kingdoms, as

> some of us have moved.

> We have no home group.  I do fighter practice with Steltonwald, and

> occasionally with the Debatable Lands.  These fighters realize that we might

> be on different sides in the next battle, and they tease me about it.  I

> return the favor.


<snip of a particular battle at Pennsic XXVII. see P-hist-msg>


> Jebediah ap Hwyl of the Mountain Confederation



Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 06:54:07 -0500

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - troll vs. gate


Stefan li Rous wrote:

> Ok, so do the East Kingdom laws use the word "troll" or "gate"?


I think they use "troll". The justification, last time I saw this

discussed, was that certain terms, among them being "autocrat" and

"trollbooth", were mandated by Corpora (whether this is still the case,

or ever was, I don't know) and while this was considered regrettable, it

wasn't worth making a fuss over _that_ particular issue.





Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:54:23 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Profit was Opinions?


> Having been a Barony ourselves for nigh in 20 years we have experience

> with what you are saying and have learnt quite a while ago that "talk"

> doesnt pay the Piper. Solving this problem was quite easy....reserve

> with payment. Period. Don't know about other Cantons but this has been

> the norm here in Ealdormere for as long as I can remember. If in fact

> this is what you qualify as "lean times" then we have slogged thru this

> one, as Im sure every area has, a few times. I dont really see this as

> the lean times but rather a unique setback that doesnt occur often.


> Micaylah


I believe the Eastern Crown Tourney where the nearly universal tradition

of "the only reservation is a paid reservation" was born was in A.S. IX.





Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 22:04:22 -0400

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Marzipan roses


Seton1355 at aol.com wrote:

> Wow!!!

>>Amalric Blackhart 07/89

>>Argent, goutty de sang, a stag rampant and a chief sable. 03/90

>>SCA: Count 4/1/2000

>>SCA: Knight, Order of Chivalry East 8/18/1994

>>East: Companion of the Tygers Combattant East 7/25/1992

>>SCA: Award of Arms East 5/13/1989

>>SCA: Augmentation of Arms 8/17/1997

>>Atlantia: Companion of the Shark's Tooth 4/5/1997


His Excellency is also the man who challenged me to a duel when I listed the wrong name instead of his own for contact info on a fighter practice in Ostgardr (I had already copiously apologized, both to him personally and in the newsletter), and when I agreed to meet him on the field in the spring, we found ourselves working together in the kitchen at 12th Night. I was busy removing the chine bones from 27 whole pork loins (simple: you hold them up in your left hand, and chop through the rib bones with your Chinese cleaver in your right, and the spinal bone structure falls off the piece of meat to the sound of your loudest roar of "TIIIIIIIIIMMBERRRR!!!"). His Excellency watched this for a bit, appeared to swallow a couple of times, walked over and said, apropos of nothing, that he hoped I knew he'd been joking about that fight we were supposed to have...


I imagine he's mellowed some since then.





Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:25:53 -0500

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] EK Cooks' Guild


>Does anyone know how I can get in touch with the East Kingdom Cook's Guild,

>if such a thing still exists? They have a registered badge, so they must

>have existed at some point, but they're not listed on the EK website.



The East Kingdom Cooks' Guild would have been active in around AS IX

or X, or, rather, prior to. Their charter can be found somewhere in

the Ostgardrian cooking pages at ostgardr.org, but it hasn't been

active for a long time. The trouble is that the guild's organization,

works pretty well when your population is a couple of hundred, but

when it exceeds several thousand, its effectiveness wanes a bit.

Looking at the charter now, some of its stated purpose, the ranking

system, etc., seem kind of dated.


What I would rather see installed is an ongoing Collegium with a

group of cooks whose purpose is to be the culinary Triple-A, or, as

Countess Brekke has been known to call them, "Have Knives, Will

Travel". They could keep a database of worked-out recipes, etc.


Ostgardr has, in the past, held well-attended Cook's Collegia, but

sort of dropped the ball when other groups asked to host it (IMO the

response should have been, "Sure, hold a Cook's Collegium, ours is in

May,") and either mismanaged the events or simply never held them.





Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 21:35:26 -0400

From: "Carol Eskesen Smith" <BrekkeFranksdottir at hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Aten Policy: The only reservation is a PAID

        reservation. (long)

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


      Ah, the memories this brings back...  Manymany years ago I cooked  

a Twelfth Night feast in Bakhail, in the East Kingdom.  One week before  

the feast, we had 90 "reservations", half of them paid.  Over 200  

people arrived at our door expecting to be fed.  The Chief Troll did  

check with the head cook (me) at every 10 or 15 people, and I foolishly  

thought we could do it.  Only 15 more? Ya, sure, we can do it.  NOT!  

And I did this EVERY TIME!  Can anyone say "brain dead"?

      This after an oven fire destroyed half our Pies of Parys the night  

before.  We were doing roast lamb, in honor of our King (His Grace, Sir  

Cariadoc of the Bow), and had a 20-lb lamb in the oven.  Let me tell  

you all, 20 lb of lamb doesn't go anywhere NEAR as far as 20 lb of  

roast pig!  And although we made lots more sausage (much of it never  

saw casings), we didn't come close to feeding the starving hordes.

     At any rate, as head of the Kingdom Cooks Guild, I made it official  

policy that at any event involving the Guild, a phoned reservation  

wasn't worth the paper it was written on, and if the reservation didn't  

come complete with check, it wasn't a real reservation.  By the time  

this got published in Pikestaff (the next issue), I was Crown Princess,  

so it had a LOT of weight behind it, and became kingdom policy for many  

years.  It might be a good idea to re-institute it; we do well with it  

in Ostgardr, right, Master A?



Brekke (older than dirt)



From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius.magister at verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] food on St Val's day

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


Also sprach Linda Anderson:

> I don't know the author pilloried earlier but enjoyed the idea that

> no one could figure out how "That accent came from Brooklyn" as

> priceless.


Ah. Back in the old days, when the SCA was a couple of groups on the

West Coast of the US and a group in New York City shortly thereafter,

one of the first things an East Coast SCAdian cook did was go to the

bookshop at the Metropolitan Museum of Art and get a copy of

"Fabulous Feasts". Well-meaning friends would award copies for

birthdays, Christmas gifts, etc., because when people found out about

your weird hobby, that was the only book they could find on the

subject. People began to use stacks of "Fabulous Feasts" to hold up

the coffee table with the broken leg. Made a good doorstop...


It actually has a fair amount of good information on medieval eating

habits, but the adaptations of period recipes are pretty dreadful,

probably because the author didn't (and still doesn't, I'm told)

actually know how to cook, and saw no need, since she was not

specifically catering to the needs of reenactors, _not_ to go for a

rather fanciful approach, one which posits that a drab-looking dish

can be brightened up with a bit of color, so dressing it up with some

shredded red licorice whip candy is an excellent idea. Never mind

that a period cook would have solved this problem, if a problem were

in fact perceived, in a totally different way. There are also some

recipes, allegedly, made up out of whole cloth, as it were, with no

foundation in any extant period recipe.


New York City SCAdians (such as myself, for example) have more reason

than those above to find the lady fairly silly: for years she helped

run the annual Cloisters Medieval Faire (at the Cloisters, the series

of relocated and reconstructed medieval European monasteries now

owned and run by The Metropolitan Museum of Art in uptown Manhattan).

She made herself fairly unpleasant to SCAdians trying to do demos at

that fair, doing things like cancelling parking privileges for

SCAdians at the last minute, so people had to park their cars about a

mile from the fighters' lists and lug their armor in and out. And

then there was the time she cancelled the SCA's entire demo one year

about fifteen minutes before it was scheduled to begin, and decided

to read from Chaucer with E.G. Marshall instead.


She used to hold medieval feasts for various organizations, and

trained her servers, as well as the diners, with the little speech I

paraphrased in my earlier post, about eating with the manifold

extensions to the hands, thah finnngaaaaaahhhs.


She ingratiated herself especially to my lady wife, who, while

enrolled in a class on Chaucer at the City College of New York, was

told by Professor Cosman that nobody without an English heritage (my

wife is of Chinese ancestry) could fully appreciate the subtlety of

Chaucer's language, so taking her class would be a waste of

everyone's time... her own heritage consisting of birth into, and

growing up in, a Polish-speaking Jewish community in Brooklyn, where

her grandfather's name (originally something like Pielzcsnewsky,

later changed by a clerk at Ellis Island) had become Pellner.


Currently, I understand she's made a fortune selling medical

practices, starting with that of her husband, when he passed away,

and expanding this into a sort of brokerage. And she really does talk






Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 21:47:00 -0500

From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlefamily.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] "Banned Foods" sortof still is: "Kingdom"

        National      Dishes

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


>> But, as one of our Once and Future Dukes learned to his sorrow, if you

>> peeve the cook, you won't get your steak and potato no matter how

>> childishly you demand'em in your whims.

> Ooo, ooo, do tell...

> I am just interested as a matter history, of course.


Not much to tell, really. The Royal Who Shall Remain Nameless To Protect

The Guilty had requested steak and potatoes at every feast. The head

cook worked at a restaurant, and had been hoarding (freezing and

hoarding) steak tips for this feast, and ha baked some potatoes as



However, the RWSHRNTPTG had 1) not sampled his savory toasted cheese, 2)

paid no attention to the care lavished on the first course, and 3) been

rude to the servers. The cook, tired and cross, declared that since the

Royals didn't appreciate his cooking, they wouldn't get their steak and

potatoes. The cleanup crew got the filet mignon tips instead. :)


So, our battle cry became "How can you have your potatoes if you won't

eat your Savory Toasted Cheese?" :)


-- Jadwiga Zaaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net



Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 22:34:56 -0500

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"

        <adamantius.magister at verizon.net>

Subject: Re:[Sca-cooks] Whey

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


Also sprach Martin G. Diehl:

> (2) Also found in the Kingdom of the East, Crown Province

> of Ostgardr -- Canton of Whyt Whey.


Originally the Incipient Canton of the Grate Whyte Whey (thank you,

Sir Edward Zifran -- would the good people of a proposed Brooklyn

canton accept my suggestion of the name, Canton of Ebbet's Field? Nooooooewwwwww!!!). Once upon a time, it is rumored, the prevailing

method of spelling the name "Østgarr" was translatable in two ways.

Depending on which Scandinavian language you assumed it to come from,

it meant either "Eastern Fortress" (or some such), or "Cheese Farm".


We all got into the habit, when the aroma of political mendacity hit

the air, of saying, "Leave us out of this: We're only simple cheese



The Canton of Whyt Whey is, of course, Manhattan Island.





Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:57:28 -0500 (GMT-05:00)

From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: ATTN Jedwiga has PMS

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


From: iasmin at comcast.net

> YAY! I hear tell that a vigil will be sat at an event called  

> "Mudthaw" (intriguing name, that)


This March will see the 26th annual celebration of The Thawing of the  

Mud in the ancient and honorable Barony of Settmour Swamp.  The "Swamp"  

part of our name comes from The Great Swamp, which is located in the  

heart of the Barony.



Naturally, when Spring comes, we rejoice to see the mud of our homeland  

released from Winter's icy grip.  Mudthaw is our biggest annual event,

one of the first major tourneys of the season.  (Sometimes the fighters  

battle on a muddy field, and sometimes they're up to their greaves in  

snow.)  Mudthaw is usually a Royal Progress event, but TRM are unable  

to attend this year -- they have to preside over the birth of a barony  

at the other end of the Kingdom.


> Iasmin


Lady Brighid ni Chiarain

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom



Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 11:36:54 -0400

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"

        <adamantius.magister at verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Title of an ex-Viceroy

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


On May 23, 2006, at 11:05 AM, Karin Burgess wrote:


> Q: What is a Viceroy/Vicereine?

> A: According to the Oxford English Dictionary, a Viceroy or

> Vicereine is "One who acts as the governor of a country, province,

> etc. in the name and by the authority of the supreme ruler; a vice-

> king." Originally, as the "Seat" of the East Kingdom, Ostgardr was

> ruled directly by the Crown; for the past few decades it has been

> ruled by a Viceroy and Vicereine as representatives of the Crown.

> According to Kingdom law, the Viceroy and Vicereine of Ostgardr

> outrank all other landed barons, regardless of their dates of

> elevation, and indeed take precedence over all but royal peers.

> Within the Crown Province (at least according to one knowledgeable

> source), they take precedence over royal peers as well, except the

> current King, Queen, Crown Prince, and Crown Princess.

> (Summarized from information provided by Yosef ben Lazar, Seahorse

> Pursuivant, and Master Ian, Viceroy of Ostgardr.)

> From :http://www.ostgardr.org

> So it seems it is a unique title.  I guess someone could contact

> the current Viceroy or Viceriene of Ostgardr, see what They will be

> called :)


I just got the Viceregal Answering Machine and left a message

punctuated with much uncontrollable laughter.


I'd bet anything they're going to be Baron Ian and Baroness

Katherine, Barons of the Court, Master/Mistress of the Pelican,

Laurel and Pelican, respectively, and the Third Viceroy (I think) and

First Vicereine of Ostgardr


> This information pertains to just this example though. other places

> may use it differently. Like Reeve/ess or Vicor/ess.  At least here

> in Caid, the term Reeve/ess is used for the acknowledged heirs to a

> Barony.  Though when my husband and had been chosen, we had been

> given a choice to use either.  Feeling that Vicro/ess had too much

> of a religious feel to it, we stayed with Reeve/ss. I know that

> Vicor/ess in other areas is used for someone who has been asked to

> step in when things go wrong in a Barony (that was another reason

> we didn't want to use it)


Things don't have to be wrong here for a vicar to be installed. At

one point a couple of years ago, Ian and Katherine were suspended for

a reign [illegally, as it turned out; the Crown had every right to

suspend them per terms in Law which, ultimately, never even came

close to being met], the Crown tried to appoint a vicar, and nobody

would touch the job with a ten-foot pole.


Subsequently, when this couple decided it was time, for the well-

being of both the group and themselves, to retire after some 26 years

on the job, there was talk of installing a vicar to function as

titular head of the group and oversee the election of a new Viceroy

and/or Vicereine, until it was made clear to the Crown that, as per

Law, the vicar could not then run for election to the post himself.

Once again, nobody wanted the job, and our Kingdom seneschal, who

happens to live in Ostgardr, is theoretically overseeing the

election. We have no vicar, but then the Viceroy and Vicereine are

still on the job until the investiture of their replacement/s, so we

don't need one.





Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 19:00:07 -0400

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"

        <adamantius.magister at verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] 9/11 SCA cooks

To: dailleurs at liripipe.com,   Cooks within the SCA

        <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


On Sep 11, 2006, at 5:55 PM, Anne-Marie Rousseau wrote:


> we call that the "natural fiber test!" in the circle of geeks I

> hang out with ;)

> --AM, who presumes the viceroy was ok, or else folks wouldn’t be

> giggling so much? ;)


Yes, he's fine, apart from a silver-dollar-sized hole in some of his

garb. What actually happened was this (from another account):


> the new Viceroy, Alexandre, was making a passionate plea for people

> to help clean the kitchen since there had had to be some

> reallocation of human resources. He's trying to stress the need for

> help, and I spot something odd about his back. I walk out of the

> kitchen doorway and start pulling on his sleeve. He's like, "C'Mon,

> I'm talking here." "Excellency..." "I mean it, can we talk later,

> I'm tryin' a get you folks a cleanup crew!" "Excellency, you're on

> fire." "My lords and ladies..." "HEY!!! Your Excellency!!! You're

> burning! Your chaplet...thingy...wotzit is on fire!!!"

> It was. They were all seated in front of a high fireplace and

> mantel, and there were little candles in low glasses lit on the

> mantelpiece. He had, in fact, risen to speak, stepped too close to

> the candles and set his garb on fire (he's quite tall), which

> burned with a small, slow, steady, clear blue flame. Looked like

> Sterno ;-)

> So,  a surreal time was had by all, we all sang the Talking Heads'

> "Burning Down the Viceroy!" in the kitchen.


Three-hun-dred-six-ty-five-de-grees! Burnin' down the Viceroy!


This was Brekke's feast, and a very good one; I just happened to be

standing very close when the Elevation Conflagration, or the

Investiture Immolation, occurred.


There were other assorted Portents, Omens and Signs at this event,

including a very sudden and violent thunderstorm during Royal Court,

and the Investiture ceremony itself being visited by a blue heron,

who flew over and essentially strafed the participants.





Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 11:16:59 -0500

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A question sure to cause controversy

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


On Feb 19, 2009, at 10:21 AM, Susan Lin wrote:

<<< Do people prefer Chef de Cuisine (or some version thereof) or is

Feast-o-crat okay?  I know people who absolutely despise F-O-C and can be

verbally violent about it.  I came from the East where it seemed to be

routinely used but now in the Outlands I've had to watch what I say. >>>


I remember that term becoming popular in the mid-to-late 80's in the  

East (I remember a lady from Meridies referring to me by that term,  

and I didn't really know at the time what it meant), and I live in the  

group that, at one time, _was_ the East.


Yes, you still occasionally hear the term, but I think a lot of people  

are trying to avoid it (also autocrat), since there are several terms  

that can be used which not only describe the role more accurately, but  

also in a manner more consistent with the goals of a group attempting  

to portray history.


It needlessly removes the person you're describing from a role in  

period society, and that is somewhat akin to standing in the lists at  

a Crown Tourney and loudly calling the finalists, stick-jocks, or  

fencers, wire-weenies. Yes, one could argue it's an accurate  

description [one could also argue to the contrary]; it's just not as  

good a description as we're capable of using.





From: Mark Schuldenfrei <mark at SCHULDY.ORG>

Date: May 10, 2010 2:38:45 PM CDT

To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Precedence of Territorial Barons and Baronesses


Fernando Vigil wrote:

<<< The Baronages don't normally handle the toasts. Of course if you go back far enough into our history a number of our barons/baronesses were amount the highest ranking folks - but due to their Peerages, not the baronial rank. >>>


Eastern Difference - it is the case that local Barons and/or Baronesses

in their own territory toast the Crowns and Heirs, whether they are

present or not.





From: Mark Schuldenfrei <mark at  SCHULDY.ORG>

Date: September 15, 2010 1:09:57 PM CDT

To: CALONTIR at  listserv.unl.edu

Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] history question


I'd like to add one: in the Kingdom of Calontir, who was

the oldest person to win Crown?


In the East it was Bjorn, at age 50.





From: Mark Schuldenfrei <mark at  SCHULDY.ORG>

Date: May 14, 2011 7:26:38 PM CDT

To: CALONTIR at  listserv.unl.edu

Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] A small questoin of History


On 5/14/2011 6:48 PM, Dorcas or Jean wrote:

> Whether or not there ever was such a rule, I don't know.


There absolutely was.  Circa some 40 years ago, at least.


Back in its early founding days, the East Kingdom was New

York City, and environs within 50 miles.  Then, along

came "Boston", and it was NYC plus 50 miles - oh, and

Boston. Carolingia was a Barony as a result.





Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 19:18:26 -0400

From: Carol Smith <eskesmith at  hotmail.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at  lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ostgardr - slightly OT, and probably more

        than anyone wants to know.


I'm going to go all pedantic on you.  :)


Per East Kingdom law, page 18, section F, Baronies, "In all circumstances, The Crown Province of Ostgardr will be treated as a barony."  (Kingdom can spell "Ostgardr" correctly, but my computer won't give me the fancy fonts necessary. The "O" actually has a line through it, and the "D" is actually a "thorn".)  We are indeed the Crown Province of Ostgardr, but that's because we were

the first group of the East, and since at one time there was a law stating

that the King had to live within 50 miles of Manhattan, we at first did not need other titular heads.  All lands not part of another group were considered Crown Lands and part of "The Crown Province", and the King was considered our titular head for a good many years.  That's probably how we became a Province, and when we began to need a head other than Their Majesties, we probably decided to distinguish ourselves from other groups by becoming "Crown Province", with viceroy/vicereine speaking for Their Majesties.


I remember when we were "the Nameless Province" - and Brigantia threatened to make it stick unless we actually chose a name.  Devra, you were there, too, no?  And you were probably there for the first Viceregal elections, as well.  (I had an attack of Real Life (TM) and was away from the SCA during this time, so Devra will have to fill in that history.  Master A, when did you come in?  It was when I was away, I know.)





From: mark at  SCHULDY.ORG

Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] gifts for wandering bards?

Date: June 27, 2011 12:52:51 PM CDT

To: CALONTIR at  listserv.unl.edu


On 6/27/2011 1:45 PM, Andrew O'Brien wrote:

<<< It might just be me, if I'm honest. A couple of years back, there was a

movement to try and make the East a "kingdom who sings." >>>


Yeah, I bounced off that too: but I tried.


Calontir treats singing like something you'd do in church:

everyone sings, the best get solos, but it's part of

everyday life. :-) (If you go to church. I'm more of a

atheist-in-the-synagogue-choir, but I digress...)


The East, in general, tends to treat singing like theater

- the best get to put on a concert, and all the good

people attend, and applaud, and think little of the

lesser minded-people that don't appreciate "culture".


It's not to say that people don't appreciate really good

authentic music: they love it, they dance to it, they

listen to it.  But they don't DO it, by and large.


It ought to be an everyone-participate contact sport,

but it isn't.  I do think that it puts Calontir in greater

touch with its roots: because the songs make more sense

if you know the stories.





Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 00:39:57 -0700 (PDT)

From: Stephen Kiefert <lanhamlaw at  att.net>

To: atlantia at  seahorse.atlantia.sca.org

Subject: [MR] daily kingdom history fact 5


Atlantia has not always been a kingdom.  


By 1976, the East Kingdom was seen as too big geographically and

administratively, so it was divided into Northern and Southern regions with a

deputy kingdom seneschal for each.  William de Montegilt was the southern one

covering the current kingdom plus West Virginia.  It was soon decided that a

principality for the southern area would be a better governing mechanism and it

was approved by the Board of Directors, with the first coronet tourney being

held November 20, 1976.  Atlantia officially came into being as a principality

within the East Kingdom on April 29, 1977 with the coronation of Alaric and

Yseult as first Prince and Princess.  The SCA continued to grow rapidly, with

the East going from 39 groups to 69 during1977-1979.  By 1979 the East kingdom

curia was discussing the framework for the future split. There were 7 more pairs

of Prince and Princess until May 2, 1981, when Atlantia became an independent

kingdom with the coronation of Michael and Carissa as the first King and Queen.


Stefan of Cambion

Kingdom Historian


<the end>

Formatting copyright © Mark S. Harris (THLord Stefan li Rous).
All other copyrights are property of the original article and message authors.

Comments to the Editor: stefan at florilegium.org