Courts-knelng-msg - 1/29/09
Kneeling when called into an SCA Court.
NOTE: See also the files: SCA-courts-nc-msg, courtesy-msg, How-to-Behave-art, SCA-courtesy-art, SCA-awards-msg, SCA-royalty-msg, The-Peerage-msg, SCA-The-Dream-msg.
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Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 07:41:44 -0700
From: Georgia Foster <jo_foster81 at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] kneeling
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
cailte typed "bless the outlands. we knee-impaired folks smile
sweetly at the crown and beg a boon and remain on our feet"
to which Phlip replied "but I was trying my best to honor the people
honoring me"
First ... sincerest contrats Phlip ... well deserved!
Second, I would like to address the issue of kneeling at court. I
would further like to state in advance that these are MY opinions
only; what works for me. Your Mileage May Vary.
Most folks who know me know that I have REALLY screwed up knees.
Kneeling is a LOW quality recreational experience. I still do it
because I still can.
Yes, I have gotten ragged on by friends who know about the knees and
are distressed that I choose to kneel anyway. I love them all
dearly. I understand that they have my best interests at heart. I
will continue to kneel as long as I can still perform the activity.
I know that eventually there will come a time when I will not be able
to (getting old sucks but it totally beats the alternative). I have
been to only one court where kneeling took so long and was so painful
that I was not able to stand afterward. From that court I learned
that if, when kneeling, I touch one knee and keep one foot on the
floor, it makes standing up afterward somewhat easier.
For the worth of it, Artemisia has mostly adapted the policy
(depending on who sits the current crown of course) that those who
are unable to kneel, stand. There is generally no need to beg boon
of the crown to do so (though it is polite to do so anyway).
Malkin
Otherhill
Artemisia
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 10:02:47 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] kneeling
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
On Jan 7, 2008, at 9:41 AM, Georgia Foster wrote:
> Most folks who know me know that I have REALLY screwed up knees.
> Kneeling is a LOW quality recreational experience. I still do it
> because I still can.
And for those that can, and can't imagine it being any other way at
the moment, I expect it may take on a whole new importance to them
when they can't.
> Yes, I have gotten ragged on by friends who know about the knees and
> are distressed that I choose to kneel anyway. I love them all
> dearly. I understand that they have my best interests at heart. I
> will continue to kneel as long as I can still perform the activity.
>
> I know that eventually there will come a time when I will not be
> able to (getting old sucks but it totally beats the alternative). I
> have been to only one court where kneeling took so long and was so
> painful that I was not able to stand afterward. From that court I
> learned that if, when kneeling, I touch one knee and keep one foot
> on the floor, it makes standing up afterward somewhat easier.
For the past few years I've brought a walking staff and a little,
round, leather-covered cushion to events. One knee on the cushion on
the floor, leaning in the staff on the same side as the cushion, the
other knee up with the foot on the floor.
> For the worth of it, Artemisia has mostly adapted the policy
> (depending on who sits the current crown of course) that those who
> are unable to kneel, stand. There is generally no need to beg boon
> of the crown to do so (though it is polite to do so anyway).
Most of what I've seen in the East suggests there is no policy; it
just traditional for those brought into court to kneel, and for the
most part, if they cannot, it is equally traditional for the Crown not
to notice or comment on it. And those who for any reason cannot kneel,
there's always the option of bowing (essentially to keep one's head
lower than those of the Crowns), and I sometimes see people standing
on the very edge of groups to make their non-conformity less blatant,
and I sometimes see people off to one side, hanging on for dear life
to the edge of a stage by their fingertips.
Once, I knelt (it was a Viceregal Court, and quite informal) and
discovered the hard way that I was wearing a filamore and kneeling on
a layer of small, sharp stones. "Ehhrrmmm. Permission to rise, your
Excellencies? Please?"
Adamantius (who also could not get up when awarded the Manche,
subsequently hauled to his feet by a different King -- but he also
knew I was cooking his Coronation feast)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 09:09:42 -0600
From: Michael Gunter <countgunthar at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] kneeling
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Basically, if the person coming into The Presence shows respect and courtesy
and simply states, "I'm sorry Your Majesties, but my knees don't allow me to kneel." the Crown will allow the person to stand. No big deal.
Historically, looking at period illustrations and such, kneeling was performed on one knee. Look at the manuscripts, for any Earthly ruler a persone knelt
on one knee and only went to two knees before any unEarthly being such as a Saint or Mary or Jesus or such.
So, when called into court, I kneel on one knee as proper.
Gunthar
[Now Duke Gunthar - Stefan]
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:53:54 -0500
From: "Barbara Benson" <voxeight at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] kneeling
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Yes, I have gotten ragged on by friends who know about the knees
> and are distressed that I choose to kneel anyway. I love them all
> dearly. I understand that they have my best interests at heart. I
> will continue to kneel as long as I can still perform the activity.
At my elevation ceremony I insisted on kneeling when I took my oath of
fealty. I had warned the Crown ahead of time that, come hell or
highwater I was going to kneel. But even at the last minute he
reminded me that I need not kneel.
This is funny only if you know I was 8 months pregnant at the time.
And not cute basketball strapped to the stick figure stomach pregnant.
With my voluminous ropa made for the occasion I believe the analogy
was made to "a majestic ship setting sail" as I waddled down the
aisle.
I made it down and up, missing head butting the sword of state by
scant inches. But I kneeled and I would have regretted it for life if
I had not.
--
Serena da Riva
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 08:10:55 -0800
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] kneeling
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Interesting conversation...
I knelt at my elevation. And yes, I needed help getting up.
Fortunately I had James on one side and my friend Vesta (lady fighter
with much musklz ;-)) to help me up. Another thing that helped is
that there was a little low bench to kneel on, and it was easier to
get up from that then it would have been from the usual pillow.
At last 12th Night, however, I was miserable. I was on retinue and on
the wardrobe team, and with all the thank-you's, I was up and down a
lot. Amalric made a point of coming down from the dais to help me up.
(I've never had a King do that before, and I was deeply honored that
he did so.) After a few though, I stopped kneeling and simply stood
to the back of the group. I don't think anyone minded.
'Lainie
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:13:07 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Kneeling
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Because I have to spend a lot of time on my knees during some dance
routines (Berber walking, floorwork, etc.), I've found a pair of good-
quality foam sport kneepads are invaluable.
Now that would be pretty funny to drag someone up there for an award
and present them with a pair of kneepads. "Here. Put these on, you'll
need 'em!" ;-)
Gianotta
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 18:26:29 EST
From: Bronwynmgn at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] kneeling
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
jo_foster81 at hotmail.com writes:
<<For the worth of it, Artemisia has mostly adapted the policy (depending on
who sits the current crown of course) that those who are unable to kneel,
stand. There is generally no need to beg boon of the crown to do so
(though it is polite to do so anyway).>>
The East does not require it either if one is unable. Depending on the
king, it is more or less easy to let them know you can't. When I was pregnant
with my son and called up for my vigil and then my Laureling, the King told me
in no uncertain terms, without my even asking, that I was NOT PERMITTED to
kneel due to my condition. Which was kind of annoying, since I was still
perfectly capable of it at the time.
The East also owns (and I know this for certain because I helped make it) a
padded kneeling bench with raised handles on the sides, akin to a gardener's
bench. It doesn't come out all that often, though, as it is extremely
Norse/Viking in style and doesn't necessarily fit in with the theme
of all reigns.
Brangwayna Morgan
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 22:56:13 -0500
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] kneeling
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote:
> Would you happen to have a picture of this [kneeling bench]? It seems like an > extremely interesting idea...
There is a small picture of the kneeling bench on the East Kingdom
website:
http://chamberlain.eastkingdom.org/furniture.html
(Scroll to the bottom -- it's #217)
--
Brighid ni Chiarain
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 05:26:23 -0700
From: "Georgia Foster" <jo_foster81 at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] OT kneeling benches
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
The pattern he has is for a foot stool that he made for his parents.
The idea of a kneeler is a period thing (check Catholic stuff). The
housemates rendition is almost exactly like one seen in a period
painting. I will find the painting and include that information when
the project is complete.
The project itself is already in motion. It will involve woodwork in
the construction, wood burning in the decoration and needlecraft in
the comfort enhancement. It will NOT be an A&S project at this point
but will involve the labors of several Shire Members. The several of
us are actually pretty excited about it.
updates as they happen ....
Malkin
Otherhill
Artemisia
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 10:40:43 -0700
From: "Kathleen A Roberts" <karobert at unm.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Kneeling
To: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>, Cooks within the SCA
<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Now that would be pretty funny to drag someone up there
> for an award and present them with a paid of kneepads.
> "Here. Put these on, you'll need 'em!" ;-)
when my late student margherita was given her laurel, i
gifted her a pair of kneepads i embroidered with laurel
wreathes. she, like me, always forgot them for
ceremonies. 8)
cailte
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:01:41 EST
From: Bronwynmgn at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] kneeling
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
audreybmorin at gmail.com writes:
<<Would you happen to have a picture of this? (The East's kneeling bench)It
seems like an extremely interesting idea...>>
I don't have a picture of the completed bench personally, but there is one
on the East Kingdom website in the Chamberlain's section under furniture.
Scroll all the way down to the bottom of the list; for some reason it is listed
as "Tyger bench". I did the embroidery on the cushion.
http://www.eastkingdom.org/chamberlain/furniture.html
Brangwayna Morgan
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:06:52 EST
From: Bronwynmgn at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] kneeling benches
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
StefanliRous at austin.rr.com writes:
<<Is this one, or the one made for the East (?) Kingdom based on a
period piece or on period illustrations? Or is this just an SCA
creation? If the former, I'd love a how-to article on this for other
kingdoms/baronies etc. to use in creating their own.>>
As far as the one for the East, I don't know if the overall pattern is
period or not. It was the work of three people - I did the embroidery, which is
wool on linen using period stitches (primarily outline/stem and split stitch
as I recall) and colors which were noted as popular on Norse things where the
color could be identified. The beast is the Eastern Tyger modified to look
more like one of the more famous Norse gripping beast carvings (dang, can't
remember which one) with twining foliage around it.
Another person did the shaping of the pieces, and I do not know what his
inspiration was. The third did the carving on the end pieces which were also
based on extant Norse artwork.
Brangwayna Morgan
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 22:30:03 EST
From: Bronwynmgn at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] kneeling benches
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
dephelps at embarqmail.com writes:
<<Brangawayna:
What did you use for padding? Wool from the sheep that was in the stewpot
for dinner? (ok, I put that in just to have a culinary reference...)>>
I was hoping to avoid that question...
It was padded with a couple of sheets of closed cell foam left over from
armor making :-) Seems nobody remembered that it needed to be padded before we
all got together at Pennsic to assemble it and we didn't have anything else
available. It also made it easy to keep the padding in place when the fabric
was put over it.
Brangwayna
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 23:44:55 -0600
From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" <dephelps at embarqmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] kneeling benches
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Brangwayna;
Thank you-that actually sounds like an excellent padding solution, IMO.
Sturdy and comfortable. And, if the modern part is where you can't see it,
no one knows unless you tell them, right? That's the "creative" part of
creative anachronism. Again, my opinion. Wool would get really smelly after
a while, anyway; at least it would down here in Trimaris, where it is both
hot and humid. I can just see it now, someone is called into court and can't
figure out why, since they're upwind from the fighters, it smells like a
zoo... (;-p
Isabella
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:08:49 -0800
From: "Wanda Pease" <wandap at hevanet.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] knee pads
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
I've seen the East Kingdom kneeler and envied it until there was a spate of
comments about how it doesn't stay together quite the way they had planned.
I love ... loved kneeling. I can still do it, but it's the getting up part
that makes me think of Disney's "Dance of the Hours" from Fantasia. The
knees work fine going down, they can even stand solid cement or pine cones
for a short period of time. But once that period of time is over, so is any
hope of rising in a gentile fashion.
I've tried knee pads and they do help the comfort level. Unfortunately I
think they actually make it harder to get up again. I even tried one of
those Orange (of course) folding stools that 'Lanie has around here, but it
was more of a nuisance than a help. The whole myth about knights needing a
crane to lift them onto their Tourney Horses was a misprint for 40lb Houpes
and full Tudor (suction here) skirt risings :->
Regina, who is so glad she actually got the Danglies before they would have
had to drag in the mud on the uptake)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:38:29 EST
From: Bronwynmgn at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] knee pads
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
wandap at hevanet.com writes:
<<I've seen the East Kingdom kneeler and envied it until there was a spate of
comments about how it doesn't stay together quite the way they had
planned.>>
The makers certainly have not been notified that there are any such issues
with it (we'd be happy to address them if there are) and it is listed as being
in "mint condition" on the website, which does not suggest that there are any
such issues with it. Our names are on a plaque on it; if it needs work,
someone should contact us about it. All three of us are still active in the
East. A single post to SCA-East looking for us by name should take care of it.
I put a lot of work into that embroidery and my colleagues into the
woodwork; I don't appreciate the thought that it will be left in storage because
somebody is too lazy to let us know that it needs fixed, and my colleagues
wouldn't either.
Brangwayna Morgan
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:03:29 -0800
From: "Wanda Pease" <wandap at hevanet.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] knee pads
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
In a cooking way... Cool Beans! I was at Pennsic Court 33 with some of the
other "elders" when a particularly long Laurelling ceremony took place. The
conferee was a lovely young thing. The young male barbarian of her guard
became less so as the ceremony dragged on. I told him I'd bite him in a
place he wouldn't want to explain if he didn't get the (expletive deleted)
out of my line of view! That kneeler looked fantastic and would give me
just enough height and place to push down on to continue to kneel for a few
more years.
Regina Romsey
> A single post to SCA-East looking for us by name should take care of it.
> I put a lot of work into that embroidery and my colleagues into the
> woodwork; I don't appreciate the thought that it will be left in storage because
> somebody is too lazy to let us know that it needs fixed, and my colleagues
> wouldn't either.
>
> Brangwayna Morgan
<the end>