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courtesy-msg - 2/24/08


Courtesy guidelines in the SCA and period. Hand-kissing and bowing.


NOTE: See also the files: SCA-courtesy-art, p-manners-msg, chivalry-msg, courtly-love-bib, courtly-love-msg.





This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.


This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org


I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.


The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given by the individual authors.


Please  respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these messages. The  copyright status  of these messages  is  unclear at this time. If  information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give credit to the originator(s).


Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org



From: adn at mayo.EDU (Ann Nielsen)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Organization: The Internet


Greetings unto those who peruse these missives on the Rialto from Lady Therica!


Hand Kissing


I personally feel this is one of the things that makes the SCA delightful. It's

a way of showing interest, respect, and honor, all rolled into one. Of course,

there are those who will use the art for their own means, but those are the

type of people who will use *anything* for their own means. (Haven't you ever

been 'unvoluntarily' hugged by someone whom you KNOW isn't hugging you just

'cause he/she "likes" you?? Yeech. And it's worse when they try to kiss you.

Yeech yeech yeech. There are a couple of people who try to take these liberties

with me, and I've been doing the Bible thing --- turning the other cheek ----

and it's certainly been taking them by surprise. Or, I offer them my hand.

Truly confuses them. >:-) (evil grin)) I would much rather have someone kiss

my hand than intrude upon my personal space (ie., hug, kiss, etc) without my

permission. And a REALLY good hand-kisser --- well, it's not hard to recognize

when it happens, since I turn into Therica-the-Puddle (melt, melt). Alas,

REALLY good hand-kissers are far and between (although there's a fair amount

of pretty good ones). One of these days I've been thinking of teaching a

hand-kissing class. After all, who better to teach it than the recipient???



--'--,-< at



Re: Proper form for writing Scadians

29 Jan 92

From: bmorris at access.digex.com (Beth Morris)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Organization: Express Access Public Access Unix, Greenbelt, MD


In article <moonman.696561731 at camelot> moonman at camelot.bradley.edu (Craig Levin

Pedro Alcazar) writes:


>...How does one address a letter

>to a fellow gentle, and what manner of address and form should one use

>within the letter if it is an inquiry? Or an informal letter? Or a

>request for purchasing? Etc.

>     It seems that we must try to emulate our noble predecessors,

>who were always writing letters, but, alas, the forms for

>correspondence are poorly taught in this day and age.


Good my lord, I greet you well.


Item, as regards the letter-writing habits of our esteemed forebears, I

recommend to you the collected Paston Letters, Lisle Letters, Letters of

Marsilio Ficino, The Plumpton Correspondence and similar manuscripts.

After reading through these letters, you will doubtless feel more comfortable

with the forms and addresses of the folk of the time.  And there are

within the Paston Letters alone, letters that can serve as models for

event reservation letters, award recommendations, letters of inquiry,

orders for items, chatty family letters and most of the other forms

that are of use to us in the Society.


I also commend to your attention an article by Elizabeth Bennett/Mistress

Alys Gardener, which appeared in the Pikestaff A&S issue a year or two ago

(but which the esteemed Lady Ellisif might have copies of), on writing letters

in persona.  Certain items must be stressed:


If it is a business letter of the SCA,Inc., it should be written as a business

letter - typed if possible, and observing the modern forms.


If you are trying to transact vaguely period business (eg making an event

reservation), include the pertinent information again on the back -

legal and Society names, amount enclosed, on- or off-board, etc.


As regards the patterns of speech, and this would likewise answer the gracious

Sybilles question about *forsooth* speech, I can only recommend steeping your-

self in the speech (or in this case, letters) of the times.  I usually reread

a bit of the Pastons before trying to write one.


Written the Wednesday next after the feast of St. Agnes, at Lochmere in

Atlantia by your faithful




(If anyone would like a sample of a letter written in this style, you have

but to send to me at bmorris at digex.com, and I will gladly provide.)



From: Joe.Bethancourt at f148.n114.z1.tvbbs.UUCP (Joe Bethancourt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Hand Kissing

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 10:28:02 -0700




                                              -Ioseph of Locksley

                (c) copyright 1993 W.J. Bethancourt III


        Hand-kissing is a wonderful means of greeting a lady. It is very

common, and unfortunately very commonly abused, in the SCA. Hopefully, this

short article will help us do it right.


        First of all, one kisses the hand in only two social situations:


        1) If you already know the lady, and she offers her hand, or


        2) If you are being introduced to her, and she offers her hand.


        DO NOT run around grabbing any lady's hand, and kissing it, at

random. They might just eviscerate you on the spot, and any person witnessing

said evisceration will only point and laugh at your social faux pas. Or help

out by handing the lady a dull knife or two......if she offers her hand to  

be kissed, kiss it. If not, DON'T!

        (You can "cue" her to offer her hand by extending yours. Be prepared,

however, to convert the extension into a flourish of your reverance to avoid

the embarrassment of standing there with your hand out looking like a beggar

asking for alms......)


        There are several degrees of hand-kissing:


        1) With -dry lips-, bend over the hand in a courtly manner, and

           make the motions of a kiss over the back of the hand. Do NOT touch

           the hand with your lips. This is correct when first introduced,

           and is always correct in any situation.


        2) With -dry lips-, bow as above, and kiss the back of the hand,

           GENTLY. This is correct if you know the lady already. It is

           NOT correct if you have not been introduced previously.


           a) You can express "I am overwhelmed by your beauty" by not simply

              bowing, but by -kneeling- before you kiss her hand. This gives

              a good opportunity to look longingly into her eyes. Make sure

              her arm will reach you as you kneel....if you yank her over on

              top of you, you will need to move to another planet and change

              your name. Remember the axiom: "The Society -never- forgets!"

              Or, if you are lucky, accept your evisceration stoically.


        The above forms are the generally accepted means of hand-kissing.

What follows are more -intimate- kisses that should NOT be done simply

whenever you want to, but ONLY to those ladies that would enjoy it........and

be ready to apoligize PROFUSELY if they take offense! If you are unsure AT

ALL of the lady's reaction, DON'T DO IT. You don't know her well enough to do

it if you can't be -absolutely sure- of her response. (Don't let your own ego

get in the way of your analysis of her possible reactions...!!) And, needless

to say, (but it -must- be said) these last three are extremely -off limits-

to ladies under legal age!


        3) Bend over the hand, gently turn it over, and, with -dry lips-,

           kiss the -palm-. This implies extreme admiration for her beauty,

           and adoration-at-a-distance. Close the lady's hand on the kiss,

           afterwards, and murmur something nice, like "I pray you, keep this

           as a memory of me..."


        4) Bend over the hand, gently turn it over, and with as dry a tongue

           as you can manage, lick it. This implies extreme admiration for

           her beauty, and a wish for a more....ah....intimate aquaintance.

           It takes a great deal of sprezzatura ("cavalier attitude") to

           carry this off well. Don't try it unless you are confident of

           your ability to deliver on the implied promise.....and you are

           very confident the lady will not kill you on the spot. Don't try

           it if you can't "play Cavalier" very well indeed, because you will

           only come off as a lout otherwise.


        The last form might be considered offensive by some. DO NOT try it

unless you are on very intimate terms (not necessarily sexual!) with the

lady. I have made Duchesses' knees buckle with this one:


        5) Bend over the hand, just a little, so you can look into her eyes

           (you will need to raise the hand a bit to do it), gently spread

           the fingers apart, and, with a dry tongue, and using only the

           tip, lick gently between two of the fingers, on the web. This is

           an obvious promise....DON'T do it unless you are willing and able

           to keep it.  


        Notice that I have always specified "dry." Wet, sloppy kisses are Not


        The practice of sucking on fingers is gauche, and the business of

kissing the hand, and continuing the kisses up the arm is simply stupid, or

good as a comedic turn. Clicking the heels as one kisses her hand is out-of-


        When saying farewell, one may kiss the hand -if it is offered-. If

the lady offers her cheek, kiss it as in (2) above, gently and with -dry-


        Hand-kissing is an art form, and should be used along with courtly

bows, flourishes of one's hat, and all the rest of the "bells and whistles"

that go with courtly behaviour.

        But......tread lightly! When you kiss a lady's hand, you go where

even angels fear to tread.

        And: NEVER EVER force your attentions on the lady in ANY manner. Such

an action is the mark of an uncultured boor, and places you in the category

of "waste of food and air on an overcrowded tourney field."




Permission is granted for this article to be reprinted in SCA and SCA-related

publications. Send a copy of the publication to Joe Bethancourt, PO Box

35190, Phoenix, AZ 85069



From: polito at lhasa.berkeley.edu ()

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: The Shaking of Hands

Date: 28 Jul 1993 15:47:22 GMT

Organization: U.C. Berkeley Math. Department.


Greetings!  Patrick O'Reilly (teh at cis.ksu.edu) writes:


>In regards to the light kiss on the hand, when I was a fresh newbie,

>and was attempting to learn some of the practices for a late 16th

>century Irish-man, an individual taught me that when being introduced

>to a lady, (and if the lady offered her hand), one should bow somewhat,

>take the lady's hand, and make a kissing motion just short of actual contact

>with her hand.


>Like I stated, this is just my understanding and what I have been taught,

>whether these are actually the truth, or in period, I am not positive.


Well, it certainly would be period for a late-16th c. Italian.  One of the

dance manuals, Caroso, has a section on etiquite which describes

hand-kissing, among other things.  If I remember correctly (will someone

out there with the book check me on this?)  the gentleman takes the ladies

hand, brings it to his llips, and then kisses his *own* hand where it is

holding hers.  The same section have all sorts of interesting details on

period manners, all spelled out meticulously, with warnings about the

ridicule you will be exposed to if you do not follow this advice.  It's a

lot of fun to read, in fact.

--Fiammetta Adalieta



From: sherman at trln.lib.unc.edu (dennis r. sherman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Shaking hands

Date: 28 Jul 1993 20:00:52 GMT

Organization: Triangle Research Libraries Network


Greetings to the Rialto from Robyyan.


(Jenny Lynne Semenza) writes:

(quoting Fiametta):

>>Italian.  One of thedance manuals, Caroso, has a section on etiquite which

>>describeshand-kissing, among other things.  If I remember correctly (will


>     Does anyone have a citation for this book/manual?  Domo Arigato in



26.  Caroso, Fabritio. Nobilta` Di Dame. Translated by Julia Sutton.

        Venice: Presso il Muschio, 1600; reprint, Oxford, New York: Oxford

        University Press, 1986.  ISBN: 0-19-311917-X.


Ta Daaaaa!



  Robyyan Torr d'Elandris  Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill Atlantia

  Dennis R. Sherman            Triangle Research Libraries Network

  dennis_sherman at unc.edu       Univ. of North Carolina - Chapel Hill



From: justin at dsd.CAmb.INmet.COM (Mark Waks)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Hand-kissing; Pennsic shopping; High-level SCA Politics

Date: 30 Jul 1993 17:09:26 -0400

Organization: The Internet


Greetings unto the Rialto from Justin du Coeur,


Re: Hand-kissing


Fiametta writes:

>One of the

>dance manuals, Caroso, has a section on etiquite which describes

>hand-kissing, among other things.  If I remember correctly (will someone

>out there with the book check me on this?)  the gentleman takes the ladies

>hand, brings it to his llips, and then kisses his *own* hand where it is

>holding hers.


Actually, it's even a shade stranger. From pg. 96 of the Sutton



      Before you come to the point of taking [the hand of] your lady,

      doff your bonnet with your right hand, and immediately switch it

      to your left; then pretend to kiss your right hand (but without

      bringing it into contact with your mouth), while she does the



So you actually each pretend to kiss your own hand; this image I get is

really quite a far cry from the modern hand-kiss, which I suspect might

well be Baroque...


>  The same section have all sorts of interesting details on

>period manners, all spelled out meticulously, with warnings about the

>ridicule you will be exposed to if you do not follow this advice.  It's a

>lot of fun to read, in fact.


Indeed; the advice ranges from sublime common sense to some really odd

period quirks. (And some of his analogies are really quite entertaining;

for example, he describes the straight-down reverence, which I assume to

be the demi-plie common to much of our dancing, as looking like the ladies

"truly resemble a hen about to lay an egg". Of course, that's better than

the places where he describes such movements as looking like you need to



It's one of the better period reads I know...


                        -- Justin du Coeur



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: cctimar at athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles the clerk)

Subject: Re: A couple of questions . . .

Summary: responding to hand-kissing

Organization: Tabard Inn Society/Citie of Eoforwick

Date: Mon, 29 Aug 1994 05:14:48 GMT


To all upon the Rialto doth Charles the clerk send his greetings!


Having returned from Pennsic and being in an irresponsible mood, I decided

to glance at the Rialto (after ignoring the previous twelve thousand

messages), and I found a question that I can address.


Liam O'Donnabhan writeth:

> 3. At Pennsic, my lady was entranced by the idea of having her hand

> kissed, but did not know how to respond, other than a "thank you my lord."

> One gentle suggested the accepted response is "nuzzling the neck" of the

> person giving the hand kiss. Comments?


Hand-kissing is used primarily to replace shaking hands with a lady.

Shaking hands simply feels too modern to us, whereas hand-kissing is a

more "romantic" custom from the past. Certainly, very few of the cultures

we purport to recreate had this custom, but most didn't shake hands,

either.  Erasmus reports that the English custom, in 1500, was to kiss on

the lips as a greeting, but I suspect this would not go over well in the

SCA.  Thus, hand-kissing is a sort of SCA compromise solution.


This preamble mostly serves to explain that there are few period

responses.  As an inveterate hand-kisser myself, though, I can say that I

do appreciate a smile as an acknowledgement.  It is also generally

possible for the lady to gently squeeze the man's fingers with her thumb.

It is not really appropriate to thank someone for a greeting, nor is a

more intimate response required.


There are apparently some boors who manage to kiss the ladies' hands in a

lascivious fashion.  The appropriate response to this is a slap.  The lady

should be able to decide what degree of intimacy she will permit.


Aside: it is possible to drop smoothly to one knee and kiss a lady's hand

without looking away from her face; this is difficult at times, especially

when meeting a lady in the swimming hole, but possible.


    -- Charles, student, in Eoforwick, Septentria, Ealdormere



From: sward02 at mail.coin.missouri.EDU (Shannon R. Ward)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: hat ettiquette

Date: 24 Apr 1995 14:27:22 -0400

Organization: The Internet


Wolfgang von Hesse asked about hat ettiquette (sorry I can't quote directly).

From what I have found in various books of courtesy (dating from

1460-1619) the hat is remove when approaching Royalty or when Royalty

enter the room or when meeting someone of a higher social station, so it

was a sign of respect.  If I were a man, I would take off my hat if

trying to impress a lady I was speaking to.  Here are some period

examples of what the etiquette books say:


Urbanitatis (c. 1460 a.d., translation by Edith Rickert):

        When you come before a lord, In hall, in bower, or at board,

        You must doff or cap or hood, Ere before him you have stood.


        Hold your cap, forbear to don,

        Till you're told to put it on.


The Young Children's Book (c.1500, Translated by Edith Rickert)


        .....When your better hands you a cup, take it with both hands

lest it fall, and drink yourself and set it by; and if he speaks to you,

doff your cap and bow your knee.


Seager's School of Virtue (c. 1619)


        ..Thy cappe fayre brusht, thy hed couer than,

        Takynge it of, In speakynge to any man.


        ..In goynge by the way and passynge the strete,

        Thy cappe put of, Salute those ye mete


Hope this helps (if you need references, holler)

       Tatiana Dieugarde


Shire of Standing Stones, Kingdom of Calontir,sward02 at mail.coin.missouri.edu



From: corun at access1.digex.net (Corun MacAnndra)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Hand kissing and bowing

Date: 12 Dec 1995 16:19:50 -0500

Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA


Greetings good gentles,


I have been asked to go into more detail regrading a comment I made in the

sharking thread about hand kissing. First, let me say that Ioseph of Locksley

has a wonderful article about hand kissing in the SCA. If you haven't read

it, I recommend it highly. I don't have his ftp site address handy, but I'm

sure someone out there will post it.


Now then, on to what I have learned about hand kissing in general and with

respect to period. As a young actor in college, I had the opportunity to

take a class on Restoration theatre. Granted, this is outside our period,

however, I've found the lessons learned valuable and indisputable. That

what I am about to relate was the custom during this period of history makes

it even more appropriate for earlier periods, IMO, and certainly more than

appropriate for the SCA.


To continue, we were taught that hand kissing as we have seen it portrayed

in modern film (or at least films that had been done up to the early '70s),

is incorrect. Big shocker there given the amount of actual research filmakers

did. A Lady's hand was not actually kissed unless she was well known to you,

or a family member. One could, under the right circumstances, actually go so

far as to kiss her hand, but this would be only in the context of courting,

and was not done indiscriminatly with every woman one encountered. In formal

circumstances, one simply bowed over the lady's hand, or, in the case of

meeting someone of nobler station than yourself, the back of your own hand

was kissed, and this could also be done with a stranger of equal station.


Gentlemen, it is more gallant to bow deeply over a woman's hand than to

kiss it, and as Ioseph points out in his article, sloppy kisses are right

out. This, then, leads us to the proper way for a gentleman to bow. Often

I see some poor lad who is not familiar with the etiquette of bowing, and

nearly topple himself trying to be courteous. It's too bad that in modern

society this practice has fallen by the way.


In order to bow reverently and deeply and not lose your balance, your

composure and your credibility in one fell swoop, you should follow this

simple formula;


      1. Gathering your balance and standing with your feet together

         in a comfortable but stable manner (heels together, feet angled

         at about 45 degrees), place the right foot behind you about

         12 inches or so and somewhat out to the side. Be careful when

         in a crowded room that you don't trip someone who may be

         walking behind you.


      2. Bending the right knee, keep the left foot, which is in front,

         very straight. Do not bend both knees, and do not bend the knee

         of the leg in front. (If you're left handed/footed, simply reverse

         this entire procedure)


      3. As you bend the back knee, also bend at the waist, bowing your

         head in the process. If you have taken the lady's hand, bow over

         it (see above re: kissing the hand). You may make eye contact if

         you choose, though it is not necessary, and in some circumstances

         (meeting someone above your station or anyone you wish to show deep

          reverance for) it is proper not to.


If you have not taken the lady's hand, you may place your right hand (or left

if you're placing the left leg behind) over your abdomen and your left hand

out to one side, palm open. If you are wearing a hat, you may sweep it off

your head, making very sure not to show the inside of the hat to the person

you are bowing to, and place this in front of you as you bow. You may, as an

alternative, take the hat in your other hand and sweep it out to the side,

again remembering not to show the inside of the hat. I don't recall why it was

considered rude to show the inside of one's hat when bowing, but I do remember

being told this. You can place the hat in such a way so that it lies across

your forearm.


One can bow from the waist, and this is not incorrect, however I find that

the method described above will allow you to maintain your balance better

as well as looking spiffier. This is especially so for those of you who

are doing later period personas. It is also a the fashion among English

Country dancers where one bows to one's partner during the intro music, and

again at the end of the dance. It is also used for a reverance during a

dance, though if the dance is being played too fast, sometimes a simple bow

from the waist is adequate in order to keep time with the music.


I hope this has been of some benefit for the gentlemen out there. Rest assured,

the ladies will appreciate the gallantry of the gesture.


In service,



   Corun MacAnndra   |

Dark Horde by birth |       Only 13 more chakra days until Krishna.

   Moritu by choice  |



From: Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith at sbcglobal.net>

Date: April 20, 2007 3:46:04 PM CDT

To: Barony of Bryn Gwlad <bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: [Bryn-gwlad] uses of "m'lord"/"m'lady" (was: Greetings Unto  



Ilariia addressed a visitor to our lands using "m'lord" as a substitute

for his title.  Daniel explained that that isn't how the term works,

and suggested something like, "good my lord" instead.  Ilariia wrote:

> Thank you for the correction.  I have been confused about when to use

> milord/milady and my lord/ my lady.


and Daniel replied:

> So far as I know "milord" = "my lord" = "m'lord" and "milady = my

> lady" = "m'lady".


> But "lord" =/= "milord".


Then Ilariia asked:

> But isn't my lord/lady the way you refer to someone who is titled but

> you don't know in what way and milord/lady the way to address anyone

> whom you don't know?


"M'lord" is an contraction of "my lord", as is "m'lady" of "my lady".

(The relationship is the same as that between "can't" and "can not".)


In the S.C.A., "m'lord" and "m'lady" are used as generic terms of

respect (because, so far as I can tell, everything and anything else

that anyone's been able to come up with that might be is already in use

as the specialized form of address for holders of some honor or other).

   So, if you want to speak directly to someone with courtly grace and

don't know their title, you can use "m'lord" as you would use that

title if you knew it.  For example:


New Friend:  Greetings!  How are you this fine day?

Ilariia:  Greetings, m'lord.  I am quite well.  And yourself?


as opposed to:


Baron Muckety von Muck:  Greetings!  How are you this fine day?

Ilariia:  Greetings, Your Grace.  I am quite well.  And yourself?


It has much in common, as Daniel said, with "sir" and "ma'am" as they

are used in the Old South.  Where I grew up, conversations like this

are common:


Older Adult:  Well, hey, there!  How are you this fine mornin'?

Younger Adult:  Well, sir, I'm doin' alright.  How about you?


What Daniel was trying to explain is that "m'lord", while it can be

used en lieu of a title, is not itself a title, and doesn't combine

with names the way titles do.  You might say, "Good morning, m'lord,"

to Lord Tobias, but you would not say, "Good morning, m'lord Tobias,"

just as you might say, "Good morning, ma'am," to an older woman named

"Sofie", but wouldn't say, "Good morning, ma'am Sofie."


Of course, where I grew up we had "mister" and "miss" to draw on, so we

could say, "Good morning, Miss Sofie." Unfortunately, the Society

hasn't come up with a good term of address that isn't rank-specific, so

you're left with the choice of using the gentle's name without one

(which could be considered presumptuous, if you don't know them),

taking a guess (which could be wrong), not using the gentle's name at

all, or being ungrammatical by using "m'lord" or "m'lady" with the

gentle's name.  Different people make different choices in that regard.


It bothered me when we first entered the S.C.A.  I'm a modern sort of

girl, generally, but the Society's take on respectful discourse is

close enough to what I grew up with to put me in an old-fashioned frame

of mind.  I find myself as reluctant to call those with higher ranks by

their names alone (unless they've indicated that's their preference) as

I am to call those my grandmother's age by theirs when I'm visiting her

part of the country.  Of course, bad grammar rubs me the wrong way,

too, so when I don't know people's ranks I usually try to avoid using

their names altogether.  As Daniel indicated, "Welcome, my lord," works

just fine without one.


Coblaith Mhuimhneach



From: Coblaith Mhuimhneach <Coblaith at sbcglobal.net>

Date: April 22, 2007 3:08:32 AM CDT

To: Barony of Bryn Gwlad <bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] uses of "m'lord"/"m'lady"


I wrote:

> . . .you're left with the choice of using the gentle's name without

> one (which could be considered presumptuous, if you don't know them),


> I find myself as reluctant to call those with higher ranks by their

> names alone (unless they've indicated that's their preference) as I am

> to call those my grandmother's age by theirs when I'm visiting her

> part of the country.


Daniel wrote:

> Perhaps my sample space has been atypical, but I've found that the

> higher the rank, the less they seem to care about being called by

> their titles.. . .


The presumption to which I referred was one of familiarity, not rank.

Where I grew up, a first name used alone is familiar.  One prefaced by

"mister" or "miss" is polite.  A surname prefaced by "mister" or "miz"

is formal.  Addressing your peers familiarly, even if they're not

intimates of yours, is acceptable.  So addressing an elder, an

employer, a member of clergy, or anyone else entitled to a measure of

deference is not.  With my "back home" reflexes activated by the

S.C.A.'s rank system, it feels "off" to me to just call a Peer by his

first name. . .That's part of the reason you had to cringe and shudder

and say "please" a couple of times before I managed to stop calling you

"Master Daniel" (to your face--I still have to consciously edit myself

to manage it).




<the end>

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