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Stefan's Florilegium


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SCA-royalty-msg - 2/10/14


Thoughts and opinions on the SCA Royalty and what they should be. Why they are important.


NOTE: See also the files: SCA-hist1-msg, The-Blow-art, Fndng-T-Dream-art, A-Peer-Within-art, Confrontation-art, coronets-msg, How-to-Behave-art.





This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.


This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org


I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.


The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.


Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).


Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org




From Henry V:

"we are the Makers of manners, Kate. Fashion courtseys to kings..."


Two Voices


There is nothing above the King,

No power to speak him nay;

This is the hour of anything,

The dawn of my golden day.


This is the law behind the king:

Greater power, greater bond.

Who might order anything

Must bend to the breeze like a willow wand.


There is nothing written above my throne.

No strength can cast me down.

The kingdom and power are mine alone

By the sword that won my crown.


This is the law behind the king:

In feast or famine, in peace or war,

He is not master of anything,

The poorest peasant is richer far.


The knights with their shining swords;

By right of might they are mine.

The people, their beasts and their lords;

Ghost be gone with thy riddle rhyme.


Son be done with thy foolish words;

No man may rule my land,

No man can master a hundred swords

Whatever the strength of his hand.


Rule for power and pride

Alone in an empty hall;

Serve or step aside

The King is a servant or nothing at all.


           Duke Cariadoc of the Bow



Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 10:04:24 MST

From: Pug Bainter <pug at pug.net>

Subject: Re: ANST - Questions about Kings & Queens

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG


Amy20987699 at aol.com (Amy20987699 at aol.com) said something that sounded like:

> Please excuse me if I ask silly or difficult questions.


I love these questions. *grin*


Remember, these are *my* opinions.


>      I have a general ideal of what the King/Queen does, but what are the

> most difficult things a king/queen has to do?


Dealing with people. They have emotions, ulterior motives, and the like

that make them human. Unfortunately everyone is different, so you have

to figure out the best of of doing the right thing instead of the

popular thing.


If it wasn't for all the people, it would just be tiring and expensive.


> What makes a "good"crown?


A crown that does the following:


1) Recognizes the people that deserve it.

2) Doesn't promote the people who don't deserve it.

3) Makes good decisions that benefit the majority of the people instead

   of a select few. These decisions are not always the popular ones



> What do people mean when they talk about an "ineffective crown"?


An ineffective crown is one that basically rides out the rein without doing

anything spectacular nor stirring up the watter. These are the ones that

may not be remembered by the mass of the people. ON the other hand, they

are better in my opinion that those "bad crowns".


Phelim "Pug" Gervase

Bryn Gwlad - Ansteorra

Dark Horde Moritu      



Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 10:20:31 MST

From: "Rayburn, Timothy" <TRayburn at insurdata.com>

Subject: RE: ANST - Questions about Kings & Queens

To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>


[SMTP:Amy20987699 at aol.com] wrote:

>      I'm very new to the SCA and have a few questions I'd like to ask. I

> attended a group party over the holidays and heard some of my new friends

> talk about kings and queens.  I'm interested in learning more about the

> "crown".  Please excuse me if I ask silly or difficult questions.

>      I have a general ideal of what the King/Queen does, but what are the

> most difficult things a king/queen has to do? What makes a "good"crown?

> What do people mean when they talk about an "ineffective crown"?

> Amy


Welcome to our fair Society, my dear lady.  I hope you enjoy what you see

and learn here.  Let me see if I can try to answer some of your very

reasonable questions.


1) What are the most difficult things a king/queen has to do?


Having not served in the position, this is not exactly up my alley, but I

would offer this.  Our Crown travels the entire Kingdom, they are at an

event nearly every weekend.  On top of this, they must deal with award

recommendations, decisions on Kingdom Law, problems in local groups ... Oh,

and I think most of them still hold down a full-time job. ;)  The position

is one that requires immense work and dedication, and that alone deserves

them the populace's respect.


2) What makes a "good" crown?


This answer will change by each person, as each person looks to the crown

for different things.  Personally I look to the crown to be a shining

example of how this Society should be played.  I look for a regal air and

presence, just decisions, generous rewards to those gentles who deserve

recognition, and so forth.  If a crown can do this, _I_ will consider them a

"good" crown.


3) What do people mean when they talk about an "ineffective crown"?


Well, this to may vary, but it very likely has to do with an ineffectiveness

to accomplish what needs to be accomplished within the Kingdom.  We are a

diverse and spirited group, and each Crown must use their 9 months (3 as

Prince/Princess, 6 as Crown) to capture our hearts and at the least make the

changes that are needed for the good of the Kingdom.


What if good for the kingdom is, again, a matter of opinion.


I hope that this has answered some of your questions.  If you will let me

know what area you reside in, I could put you in contact with your local

groups Hospitaller.  This is an officer who is there just to make the

transition to joining our fair Society as easy as possible for you.  They

can also answer many of your questions of this regard, though this is also a

perfectly acceptable arena for such questions.


Honor Super Gloria,


Timothy of Glastonbury

Protege to Viscount Galen of Bristol



Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 07:59:02 MST

From: James Crouchet <jtc at io.com>

Subject: Re: ANST - Questions about Kings & Queens

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG


> > What do people mean when they talk about an "ineffective crown"?


> An ineffective crown is one that basically rides out the rein without doing

> anything spectacular nor stirring up the water. These are the ones that

> may not be remembered by the mass of the people. ON the other hand, they

> are better in my opinion that those "bad crowns".


I don't think this is completely accurate. Rather, an ineffective

crown is one that does not take care of problems when they arise and

does not give recognition that is deserved. It is entirely possible

for a crown to have a reign where no Peers, WS, etc. are ready to be

made and there is no great disaster for them to fix. They cruise

through their reign giving such lower level recognition as is deserved

and making such decisions as are needed in a wise, considered way.


More likely is that the crown DID have quite a few problems to deal

with and they did so quietly so YOU never heard about it. These people

have simply chosen not to embarrass their subjects by displaying the

dirty laundry.


I know we had a reign recently where no WS were made -- and most of us

were profoundly grateful. That did not mean that crown ignored us or

that their job among the WS was easy but most people (especially those

outside the rapier community) probably never heard about any of that.


Being an ineffective crown comes from failure to act when needed, not

just lack of action.


Don Christian Dore



Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:56:34 MST

From: "Michael F. Gunter" <michael.gunter at fnc.fujitsu.com>

Subject: Re: ANST - Questions about Kings & Queens (long-Gunthar talking)

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG


I know this was sent out a while ago and I have seen several comments

on your questions but I would like to add a little bit to the pile as well.


> I'm interested in learning more about the

> "crown".  Please excuse me if I ask silly or difficult questions.


I find no reason for you to apologize for these questions. They are questions

that even those "old-timers" wonder about. I'm still a newbie after being

in only around 16 years. Goodness! Where does the time go? I'm still a

teenager after all!


>      I have a general ideal of what the King/Queen does,


I found your little typo a bit amusing and illuminating. I know you meant to

type "idea" but I think "ideal" it actually a better word. We'll first talk about the meaning of the typo and then discuss what you actually said. The "ideal" Crown is different for every member of the SCA. Some like their Crowns to be aloof and majestic. Full of power and fury. Others like a "Mom and Dad". Loving of their children and beloved by all. Yet for others the "ideal" Crown is one of them. Laughing and remembering that this is a game after all. For each of

these, if the other is on the throne then that Crown is slightly lacking.


Now as to you having an idea of what the Crown does. It is funny how so many

people who have been in for many years still cannot truly comprehend all that

a Crown does unless they have been Crown or CLOSE entourage. Even after

being a knight for over eight years and close friends of several Crowns I was

unprepared for all that went into being King. I knew that Crowns sat in Court

and gave out awards and recieved loads of goodies from the adoring populace.

I knew they sat and gave judgement in Circle. I knew they went to events

almost every weekend but that was okay because when they got there they

got on site free and got free meals and didn't have to really work, no fighting,

no cleaning up, etc...  They always said how much being Crown sucked but

always wanted to do it again. Okay. So I knew all about being Crown.


And then the King placed the Circlet of the Prince upon my brow. Thus I was

removed from my comfortable womb of non-Royalty and entered into the Real

World of the Crown. As an example. I didn't even have a chance to change out

of my armor before I was sitting in a Pelican meeting. After that I showered,

changed and ate. As soon as I was through with dinner I sat in a Belted Circle

until the arrival of the unknowing Princess. Court was quickly assembled and she got the surprise of her life. After Court was the continuation of the Belted

Circle (we could see the party our household was having), from the Belted Circle

we went to a Great Officers of State meeting which finally concluded around 1:30

in the morning. By the time the new Prince and Princess got back to camp

everyone had gone to bed. Welcome to the fun-filled life of Royalty.


Crowns put in a lot of hours in the week dealing with phone calls, award

recommendations, planning for the next event, fixing problems that arise in the Kingdom, washing, unpacking, packing, writing reports and submissions to the newsletter, having people over all the time, etc...


But then they get to go to the event and be King and Queen. In our 6 months as

Crown we got 3 weekends at home. We went from Northkeep to La Marche Sauvage, from Bordermarche to Adlersruhe. Remember that we were in the spotlight not just when we arrived on site but even when home. Frequently, instead of meeting the people of the kingdom as we desired, we had to be sequestered with local personages to attend to problems that only the Crown could fix. We got to sit and watch the fighting instead of being out there and having fun too. Often we missed the fighting because members of the populace would approach us to chat. Talking with our populace was a true joy. And definately worth missing a couple of fights.


As Crown I got to sit in a crowded room filled with other high personages and

Decide to cancel Gulf War and tell 4000 people to go home. But at that same time I got to see people from all kingdoms helping each other out and having a party to defy the elements. I still get a tear when I remember the ovation the populace gave us in that damp court. That's a tenth of what a Crown does.


> but what are the most difficult things a king/queen has to do?


All of your questions are simple but all have many levels of answers. The most


->Going against a friend's wishes because you feel what you do is right for the


->Going against YOUR wishes because you feel what you do is right for the


->Keeping a smile on your face when everything is crashing down around you.

->Not getting drunk, or having a dalliance with that cute little thing flirting

with you or throwing a tantrum when little things build up because you are the Crown and everything you do is a reflection of your Kingdom.

->Being diplomatic when you really want to tell someone to get stuffed.

->Having huge arguments with your consort on whether or not to give an award.

->Driving, driving, driving.

->Seeing your friends having to setup or break camp and working their tails off

while you sit in meetings and aren't allowed to help them.


> What makes a "good"crown? What

> do people mean when they talk about an "ineffective crown"?


This depends on what you look for in a Crown. Do they match what a Crown is

Supposed to be in your head? Then they are a good Crown. I guess for me a good Crown is a Crown who cares more for the Kingdom than they do for themselves or their friends. A Crown who looks at the populace as their family and all special instead of people to serve them.


The best Crown is a Crown who makes it happen for the populace. They make you

proud to be Ansteorran. The best Crown is one where you feel they have no problems because they take care of the nasty stuff away from the crowd and deal with it before it gets big.


An ineffective Crown is a Crown that is forgotten two reigns later. A Crown that

does neither real bad or real good. But they also don't inspire the populace. The populace goes about its business and does the courtesy thing but really don't feel one way or the other or look forward to seeing what the next Crown brings.


Bad Crowns make things interesting. They put their themselves above the populace

And will weild whatever power they have like a club. They will bring shame upon the kingdom and definately start conversations. Their replacements are usually welcomed enthusiastically.


But several bad Crowns in a row can drop a kingdom to low levels of morale and

chaos. It takes a strong Crown to repair the damage.


> Thank you in advance for helping me understand.


I don't know if I've helped you understand anything. Several people have added

their ideas and this is just some of mine. The only way you will learn about Crowns is to see them in action and judge for yourself.


Good luck, Amy and I hope you find out.


> Amy





Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:09:35 MST

From: "Michael F. Gunter" <michael.gunter at fnc.fujitsu.com>

Subject: ANST - The other side of the Crown - Long again

To: Ansteorra <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>


Hi again Amy and Ansteorra,


In my post about being Crown I seemed to focus

on the negatives. Mainly because this was the

way Amy asked the questions. I think it may

have made me seem bitter or burned out. Please

know that being Crown is not all drudgery.

Now for the up side.


To be the Crown of any kingdom is truly burden and

joy. Often for the same reasons. You ARE the kindom.

I have told some of the burdens but the joys of being

Crown far outstrip any discomfort.


I'll forgo the obvious items like you get the big hat

and everyone has to bow to you. That's obvious and

actually gets uncomfortable sometimes.


But you get to see how the kingdom works from the

inside. You sit in all the Circles and truly get to know

the other Peers, Centurions, & White Scarves. You

deal closely with the Officers as well. To

work with these people gives you a deeper understanding

of how the SCA works. Suddenly you see the gears that

make the Kingdom ride smoothly.


To recieve gifts is a joy beyond the material. It means

you are doing a good job and the people care enough

about you to go to the extra effort of doing something

to make you happy. A couple of the nicest gifts I recieved

as King were simply left in the chair while I was away.

This was not done so the person could "look good before

the King" but simply because they wanted to do something

nice. Some items were as grand as a camp bed for two

(who will forget the King and Queen being carried around

the hall on it?) and others were as simple as a flower. And

to know we brought honor to the person by merely accepting

it and saying thank you was a better gift than the gift itself.


To have a gentle cry tears of happiness and embarassment

when we gave them an award is what makes it all real.

At that moment, when we gave an AoA and made someone

part of the family is when I truly felt a King. Also presiding

over the grandeur and ceremony of a Peerage is both

daunting and exhilarating. To forever be to someone "Their

King" because I was the first they saw or the one who gave

them their AoA is something all Crowns know.


But the moments which truly made everything real were those

times of duress. When people came up to me and needed a

decision made or an answer NOW! To give a command and

the people bow and say "Yes, Your Majesty" as they go

to do your bidding is heady and humbling. They will do as you

tell them. Make sure it's the right thing.


Walking or riding in the golden surcote of the Arms of Ansteorra

with the army at your back, banners swirling, drums and pipes

calling and the army singing the battle hymns of our land makes

you feel invincible! For this moment you are the CROWN!


I am not tired or embittered by my term as King. Quite the

opposite. Whenever I do get tired or wonder if it was worth it

I can think back to times as Crown and relive some of the

joys and glory of leading this land. The pride of watching "my"

army take the fort at Gulf War. Feeling unworthy as people

cheered at Coronation. Actually feeling like I was father to this

populace (sometimes unruly children but loved nonetheless).

The extreme happiness of the new friends we made in far away

places (like Le Marche Sauvage). Meeting and becoming friends

with other monarchs who can sometimes be pretty groovy people

themselves. To sit in State and have the populace come forward

just to talk. The open arms of every group we visited. The delight

of ordinary things that I would do anyway suddenly becoming

very special (the KING carried that lady's ice chest!). To know

your friends care enough about you that they will work their

tails off for little reward other than to make life a bit easier for

you. (But we do pay for it later, don't we guys?)


Would I do it again? I don't know. Everything is up the the fates.

Maybe if I could have a Queen as perfect as the one I had and

the people wanted it and my fighting was up to the task.

But I would never have the memories replaced. Being Crown is

indeed hard work but it is more than made up by the people who

allow you to be that Crown.


I hope this balances things a bit.





Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 18:31:13 MST

From: jonwillowpel at juno.com

Subject: Re: ANST -  Good Kings & Queens? answer

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG


Greetings Amy from Duchess Willow de Wisp


Hi Amy! I have been Queen three time, once in Atenvelt and twice in

Ansteorra. I can tell you that the most important thing a crown does is

make people believe in the Kingdom. This is also the hardest.


We have created a medieval model. In our case it is called Ansteorra.

Through interaction with this model we experience the middle ages. But

our model is suppose to allows us to experience the ideals of the middle

ages not the historical reality. It is important to note we are creating

a world based on the dreams of yesterday. The statement "not as it was

but as it ought to be" means the ought of been of the people of the

middle ages. We are not really studying history we are studying the

history of ideals.


This brings up an interesting problem for the Crown.  They are in charge

of making this model work but they have to work with real people. They

have to create around them this magical world where everyone's dream has

a chance to live and at the same time keep the day to day running, power

plays. misunderstandings, red tape and fights out of the line light. I

can tell you this is hard.


The model starts with the Crown. They are the chief players in the Show.

They sit up in front and it looks like everything comes to them but this

is not true.  They are the first performers, they set the stage that

allows everyone else to play. They are also the MC's. They make sure

everything else happens. From them all the rest of us take our cues. IF

the crown says let there be entertainment, there is entertainment. If the

Crown ask for decorations, there is decorations. If the Crown ask for

dancing, there is dancing. If the Crown ask for role playing, there is

role playing. Many of the games we play privet around the Crown and the

Crown's representative, the baron/ess. The Crown embodies the Spirit of

Ansteorra. We depend on their insight and imagination.


A good Crown makes the Game exciting for us.  They create situations that

allows us to feel that we are in a magical world. Our dreams come alive.

A Good Crown doesn't allow the mask over the reality to slip. A good

Crown doesn't let our peers appear petty or knights appear as anything

but heroic. A good Crown will pare down the red tape, make the government

friendly to the people and try to keep all of us behaving at our best.

The good Crown will put themselves out to make it better for us.


An  "ineffective crown" is simply a Crown that doesn't do those things.

Sometimes it is because they lack "Presence". ( A side note; the reason

that we like our peers to have Presence is that their Presence help the

Crown with theirs). They just sit up front and talk to their friends.

Often they don't know what they are suppose to be doing. Often they have

no historical background. (The creation of a dream around the Crown and

the use of "SHOW"  was a common political practice in period. Some of our

most effective crown have simply stolen ideas from historical figures.)

Sometimes they are selfish, they think that as Crown we are all put here

to entertain them.  Sometimes they lack imagination and their ideas don't

fly. Sometimes they can't delegate. They hire the wrong people to create

the show or they don't realize that most of their officers are so busy

getting the everyday workings of the SCA off the ground that they don't

have time to create magic.  Sometimes they try to do things with too few

people. Most of time it is from lack of education. This is why the second

time Crowns are usually better at the job.


I know my statement brings up a lot more questions but if I write any

more they will throw me off this list. If you would like to hear about

historical techniques and SCA examples of how "good" Crown have worked

just ask.



Duchess Willow de Wisp



Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:01:12 -0600

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Okay, my life just got interesting...


At 3:01 PM -0900 1/17/00, Kerri Canepa wrote:

>If any of you were to become Royalty and could influence the culinary sphere,

>what would you like to see happen?


Have suitable period nibbles available to give to people who are

visiting the royalty. Hospitality was an important period virtue, and

it is an opportunity to expose people to period cooking.


A different suggestion, not culinary but to do with royalty at feasts:


In my experience, places at high table are usually allocated to the

highest ranking people around. This is a mistake. From the standpoint

of the senior duke in the room, being at high table isn't a

particular honor, and he would probably prefer to eat with his

friends. From the standpoint of a relatively new person, it is a

stunning honor.


The policy I recommend is to keep a couple of places at high table

open. At some point during the event, someone you don't know will do

something that impresses you--fight beautifully even though he is

relatively new, go to a lot of trouble to help other people, tell a

moving period story, turn out to be a blacksmith who makes beautiful

period cooking equipment, ...  . Invite him and his lady (or her and

her lord) to join you at high table.






Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:04:45 -0600

From: "Michael Gunter" <countgunthar at hotmail.com>

Subject: SC - Arguing with the Crown


>I think a lot of it has to do with how long you've been in the SCA, how

>you've moved in the circles that communicate with the "centers of power" within

>your kingdom and the kind of relationship you have with the Crown.


Heh. I feel kind of sorry for my Crowns. I tend to let them know

what I think. Of course it does help that I knighted the past couple

and actually acted as a bit of a mentor when they were squires so

some of the discussions come out as "Listen Junior....".  But I'm

an arrogant lout.


>There are a

>number of people who, if they were King, I could talk to quite honestly, and

>that honesty would be appreciated.  On the other hand, there are a few who,

>when given an honest opinion, get angry...one even tried to banish me from the

>SCA some years ago!


One thing that any Crown, or autocrat or seneschal or basically anyone

in power, needs to remember is that other people have valuable

ideas as well. And them's that's in charge need to be able to have

a valid and logical explination for doing what they do. And also

to acknowledge that they aren't all-knowing. The worst Crowns I've

seen are those that believe in the absolute power of themselves.

I was always willing to listen to what people had to say. I may not

have agreed with it but at least I had a reason for not agreeing

instead of "I'm King and how dare you question me?". Too many Crowns

forget that they step down eventually.


>However, that has never stopped me from being honest...and, at least

>diplomatically, letting the Crowns know how I feel!


As all members of the populace should do. For better or worse.

Crowns should know when they screw up and a good one will apologize

and try to correct it. But it also helps when they are told about

the good stuff they do as well.


An example of having a good reason for doing something and taking

the time out to explain happened to me. We had to make a decision

about changing Kingdom law. Some people viewed it that we were using

our power to help out a couple of friends. One Peer wrote to us and

basically said we should call a Court of Chivalry on Ourselves.

I wrote this Peer and explained why we made the decision we did. How

the law was a bad law and needed changed, how it was changed at the

request of the populace it affected and that we would have made the

change even if we weren't directly involved with the parties it

affected. I then told the Peer that we declined his request to hold

a Court of Chivalry on us but that he had our permission to take his

request to the BoD if my explanation wasn't satisfactory. A few months

later this Peer approached me and thanked me for explaining the

situation and that he had just been representing some people who

didn't understand the situation. If I had taken the "Screw you, I'm

King and can do what I want" stance I could have been considered a

nepotist and power-mad. Instead I gained an ally.


I think all positions of relative power should remember this. Whether

it be seneschal, autocrat, head cook, baron or Crown. My apologies

for the rather long tirade.





[Count] Gunthar



Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 01:03:33 -0500

From: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Crown attendance at some/all activities

To: SCA-Cooks maillist SCA-Cooks <SCA-Cooks at ansteorra.org>


Serena da Riva commented about a mis-understanding of what a (her?)

Crown seemed to be saying.


However, I must respectively disagree with some of her comments.



At no point did His Higness (now Majesty) say that there could not be

rapier at an event he was attending. He was simply attempting to

communicate that neither he nor his Lady had any interest in Rapier

and that they would not be promoting Rapier in the form of sponsoring

a Champions Battle or watching Rapier at events.


And while I believe that we would all prefer to have Crowns that are

passionate about our particular area of interest - unfortunately that

does not always happen.



And for a single event, it can't always happen. Many events are now

so crowded with activities that multiple things are happening at the

same time. And it is difficult for a Crown to be at more than two

places at once. Our barony is currently struggling with trying to

simplify our events by not have all of our champions competitions at

the same event, for instance.


In many kingdoms there are often several events every weekend. Even

if the King and Queen split up and each goes to a different event,

they still can't even attend every event.



I have known many a Crown with a Late period

European Persona who would not in any way attend the ME Hafla,

preferring instead to attend the European Revel.



Yes, for a single event choices have to be made. However, for the

Royalty in the above quote, it wasn't the matter of having to miss

one activity because of two going on at the same time at one event.


It was a conscious choice to avoid such an activity through out a six

month reign. To avoid going to even one rapier activity while going

to approximately 20+ events. Unfortunately, as a couple in the

spotlight, avoiding an activity is not simply not promoting it, it is

in fact, denigrating that activity and saying that a particular

activity is not worth even a few hours of their time. "Sponsoring" an

event doesn't require the Crown to be running it. Simply showing up.


Nothing says the Royalty is required to participate in all

activities. If I remember right, they are only required to attend a

few events, Coronation, Crown Tournament to pick their successors and

a few others. All that I've heard of go way beyond this. And it isn't

easy. I've got a Florilegium file with examples. :-)


However, I think the good Crowns will try to set aside some of their

personal preferences and encourage all of the activities of their



Perhaps this Crown is doing things to support the Rapier community

behind the scenes, but the way they are handling it gives a bad

impression and provides fodder for those who argue that picking your

organization's leaders by who can hit the hardest or ignore the blows

the least obviously, is a poor way to select for leadership ability.



It is indeed

unfortunate when the Crown does not pass on these preferences. If, in

this example, the organizers of the Hafla expect the Crown and make

extra efforts to comfort the Crown, and they never show up - there is

much embarassment and hard feelings.



Unless the organizers of the Hafla had some communication from the

Crown or the Crown's keepers that the Crown would be planning on

attending the Hafla, then they shouldn't make the assumption that the

Crown would be there. And even if they got word that the Crown would be

attending, they need to keep in mind that the Crown's schedule does

change. I don't think the Crown needs to pass on their preferences

publicly. This can be handled by the entourage or by the organizer,

or better the event steward, communicating with the entourage.




THLord Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad    Kingdom of Ansteorra

     Mark S. Harris           Austin, Texas



Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 12:03:17 -0500

From: "Michael Gunter" <countgunthar at hotmail.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Not at all food related meta issue

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org


Well, this whole discussion has been amusing and a bit academic.

The Society is just that, a society. Any sociologist will tell you that

group dynamics tend to follow certain trends and it doesn't matter

if it is governments, families, villages, weird reenactment groups

or biker gangs.


Any position of leadership is a position of power, no matter how

nebulous that power is. From the President of the US to the

dungeon master, some are very good, some abuse it and many

will gain that power at all costs.


> So what's wrong with requiring SCA crowns to be charming and gracious?

> They're 'paid' with praise, attention, gifts, crown-bunnies, etc.


There are several requirements to be Crown, often these are

loopholed and overlooked by contenders. If solid requirements

are overlooked, the rather esoteric graces can be quickly forgotten.

There are no checks and balances for good behaviour within our

Society other than your reputation. For many people reputation

is secondary to rank.


> Historically, *every* crown was good enough to enough people for enough

> time...at least for a while.  Again, I don't think anybody is promoting the

> idea of cruel, hateful, rude, abusive crowns in the SCA.  That's a bad

> marketing strategy.  It's a sanitized view of Medieval life, so why  

> not simply have a sanitized form of Medieval kings?


Well, I think I beg to differ on this point. I guess I can agree with

you that "every" crown was good enough for the people simply

because he had an army that made sure everyone liked him. And

the peasants of the time, like the general public now, really

didn't care one whit who was King as long as he left them alone

to live their own lives.


There are several Royal Peers subscribed, myself being one of them

so maybe we can give a better perspective about what sitting in

the Big Chair is all about.


The number one thing to remember is that nobody is a villan in their

own mind. When you become the Crown all of a sudden you get to

do the stuff you have always dreamed of the King doing in the SCA.

And often you think you are doing the best job you can. For some

people all they care about is winning the list and getting the title

and having people bow and scrape to you. Unfortunately you also

have to run the State, make sure you don't piss people off, attend

tedious meetings, be nice to people you don't like, and basically BE

the head of state. Many of the people who only want the title have

a hard time with this. Funny, often the same thing happend with

real life power grabbers too. For every bad SCA Crown I can point

to a Caligula, Nero, Ivan, Nixon, etc...


The power of SCA Crowns is true power, it may only exist in our

little group but it is nonetheless power. Why do people bow and

scrape to me because I won a tournament 5 years ago? Why do

guys who are total nerd losers in real life have ladies wanting to

have sex with them because they have a shiny hat? We change

policy and affect the lives of thousands of people with our actions.

With any power comes the opportunity to either use it or abuse

it. Fire is a very good thing. It heats our huts and cooks food and

converts iron to steel. It also burns, hurts, kills and destroys. Like

power, it is how it is used. And you can't tell fire to "be nice" you

have to control it. Some Crowns truly believe in what we do and

work their tails off to be what everyone wants a King and Queen

to be. Some Crowns want stuff, and babes and respect and the

opportunity to give stuff to their buddies and to hell with those

pansy rapier fighters or artisans or archers because we don't play

their game.


Guess what? That happens with elected leaders, real world Kings

and CEOs.


We cannot force good behavior on our Crowns, we can only

encourage it and pray something sticks. Being Crown is a major

pain in the butt as well. You are on call 24/7. Everything you do

is commented upon, shoot people know when you go to the

bathroom. Everyone expects you to solve their problems, you get

blamed if it rains! You have to arrange courts, attend every meeting,

handle problems, make constant decisions and try to look good doing

it. Some do it better than others and if it looks like they had an

easy reign it only means they kept the nasty stuff from getting out.


As far as alternate Crown Tournaments go, there have been a couple.

An Tir tried it once, it was determined a lot of fun and very interesting

and never do it again. There was the Principality list that was mentioned

earlier.  And there may have been others. I know groups like Amptgard

have Wars where people gather warbands to fight and I don't think

their leaders have been any different from any other system.


Personally I look at Crown Tournament as a series of battles, my personal

skill is the "army" I was able to build. The tournament is a scaled down

"War of Roses" in which armies are destroyed and assimilated until it's

down to two commanders who have climbed to the top of the heap.

In war, you are never quite sure who's head will have the circlet and

who's will be on the block.


> Do anything to embarrass the organization and you're out, determined by

> some committee or the BoD.  You want to avoid bad behavior?  Identify it

> ahead of time and explain the consequences.  New example comes up?  

> Add it to the consequences explanation.


Oh, Lordy! I can just imagine the squirrel cage that would be. The

problem is that we often have "morals" discussions about members

but all too often there are 50 different sides to the argument. The

ugliest Crown that I've ever seen was when the two fighters in the

Final had to win at all costs, "to save the kingdom from the other".


Honor and reputation are the only coins that really matter within the

Society. You an have all the rank in the world, have every award and

still get no respect from anyone if your behavior was that bad. There

have been a couple of dukes given lifetime banishments because of

their actions. Getting respect is the only thing that really matters

and respect only comes from your behavior.


Perhaps there could be a clause that the people decide if a Crown

who steps down be given Royal rank. But that could be a lot of

fun to do as well.


> You seem convinced that your fellow SCA members will back-stab, lie, cheat

> & steal in order to gain victory at any price.  I'm just not willing to

> accept that.


Unfortunately, it does happen. Not as often as it seems to be because

of the fact that we talk about that more than the good ones.  But,

yeah, people will lie, cheat and manipulate to gain even our pretend

power. A hell of a lot more actually believe in this game we play and

make it worth being here for. It's for those that this Society has

grown and thrived for 40 years!


> Duriel





From: Chris Zakes <dontivar at gmail.com>

Date: November 10, 2007 10:22:43 PM CST

To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Ducal Perogative


At 11:15 AM 11/10/2007, Robin wrote:

> "robert segrest" wrote:

>> At any rate, I am continually amazed that a system of governance that

>> theoretically should be one of the worst possible methods for choosing

>> leaders seems to usually produce high quality administration, not  

>> only from our monarchs, but also from the officers they appoint.

> The SCA is a volunteer organization, and the principles of government are

> different.  The essential control over the government is not the vote, but

> the fact that we can always walk away.


Precisely. Engraved on the inside of the Crowns of Caid are the

words: "You rule because they believe." That's a good thing for *any*

Crown to keep in mind.


          -Tivar Moondragon



Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 13:43:09 -0800

From: Susan Fox <selene at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Feast thanks

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


Lilinah wrote:

> Gunthar wrote:

>>> But don't snub my crew!


>> I appreciate your protection and value of your people, and I agree that

>> kitchen crews are totally amazing.  But I feel a visit from the local

>> B&B or Royals back to the kitchen is more impressive than being part

>> of the show.

> Good grief! Royals set foot in the kitchen?!?!?!? Surely you jest!

> They've got far more important things to do... i guess.

> If only they'd done that i would have no complaints.


At a long ago Twelfth Night, Queen Battista came into the kitchen

afterwards and mopped the floor.  That's the kind of helpful person she

was. Talk about conflicting impulses; between "No, Your Majesty, we

will do that" and "Anything you say, Your Majesty".





Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:51:03 EST

From: Bronwynmgn at aol.com

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Feast thanks

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org


selene at earthlink.net writes:

<<At a long ago Twelfth Night, Queen Battista came into the  kitchen

afterwards and mopped the floor.  That's the kind of helpful  person she

was. Talk about conflicting impulses; between "No, Your  Majesty, we

will do that" and "Anything you say, Your  Majesty".>>


Duke Timothy of Arindale, during the numerous times that he was King of the

East, came to the kitchen after feast at almost every event, along with his

squires, and they all stripped off their shirts and washed dishes.  Not only

helpful, but a decent eye candy factor as well :-)  On the occasions when he

had business to conduct after dinner, he would send a squire with orders that

we were to leave the biggest dirty pots for him to wash.


Brangwayna Morgan



Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 08:57:15 -0400

From: "Elaine Koogler" <kiridono at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] kitchen tips

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


[If SCA Royalty expect respect, they should treat others with respect. This is NOT the way to do so. -Stefan]


A couple of things here...we've had a couple of Atlantian monarchs who have

refused to eat our feasts...and one who specified that he didn't eat much of

anything other than hotdogs, cheese and HoHo's.  The biggest insult was the

one who came into the kitchen long enough to inform us (at his decoronation)

that he was hanging around long enough to serve High Table (a tradition here

in Atlantia), but that he'd be leaving as soon as the serving was done

because he refused to eat feasts!  The other head cook (a good friend who

rarely loses her temper) threw, not a wobbly, but her tennis shoe!  The only

reason he didn't get hit was because he had closed the door behind him

seconds before the shoe hit the door!





Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 19:32:47 +1300

From: masterwolf at optusnet.com.au

Subject: [Lochac] On the Subject of Royalty (humour)

To: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list" <lochac at sca.org.au>


The odd books one finds on the $2 stand in Whitcoulls (which may say

a lot about its contents)


"Right Royal Quotes" - Wisdom and Humour from the English Monarchy

the one that sticks in the mind is attributed to one of the Georges


"To be a Wise King one should heed the advice of ones advisors for

they are learned in all things"

"To be a Learned King one should listen to ones populace, for in their

voices will you hear the truth"

"To be a Great King one need only mind thy words and listen to thy wife"





Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 08:05:45 -0400

From: Dexter Guptill <3fgburner at gmail.com>

To: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>

Cc: Atlantia maillist <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>

Subject: Re: [MR] Newcomers and coronets



The night I got my Goldfish (Atlantian service dangly, for those

out-kingdom), I felt it appropriate to baptize it in dish-water.

There was a Duke scrubbing counters in there. I was scraping and

spraying dishes. The Crown Prince was washing and drying.


On Sat, May 21, 2011 at 3:35 AM, Stefan li Rous

<StefanliRous at austin.rr.com> wrote:

<<< In my opinion, the best Royals, and Peers, are the ones who are willing to

pitch in and wash dishes or whatever needs to be done, Or at least who don't

consider it below their dignity to do so. Many times the Royals are so

caught up in running the kingdom, that working in the kitchen or whatever,

is not a good use of their time. >>>


Erich von Kleinfeld, CGD



Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 08:28:19 -0400

From: Gise <scribe0002 at aol.com>

To: 3fgburner at gmail.com, StefanliRous at austin.rr.com

Cc: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org

Subject: [MR] Crowns/Coronets & Service (was Re:  Newcomers and



I've never had such respect for any Crown, Coronet, Peer or other highly placed person as I have on those occasions when they laid Their/their decoration aside and took on the least unpleasant task at hand.


I met the King of Aethelmearc one year while we were setting up Heralds Point at Pennsic. The guy who had insisted on helping us rehang our walls, set up tables, chairs and filing cabinets had to excuse himself when a page informed him the presence of the King was required in a conversation just outside the tent. He went to the pile of things that included his shirt, belt and pouch and uncovered His Crown. Took care of the business that required His attention. Took the crown and shirt off again and came back to finish.


I and the rest of my East Kingdom shire cooks' guild were chased from the kitchen after cooking all day so the King and the well-placed baron who was His court herald could do the dishes and clean the kitchen.


The super-duke from the East who salvaged the fiber arts and small child a woman had dropped in the mud at Pennsic and carried (with is entourage) for her to her camp. He might have been king at the time, I can't remember anymore.


The super-duke from Atlantia who, serving on Pennsic security, came to get me when my daughter was hurt, stayed with me and helped calm and control the craziness while I dealt with the situation ...


Just to be clear, I have seen similar actions from many ladies and lords in this game ... the squires from Quebec and Toronto who drove 8 hours to a southern region event in the East, cleaned the kitchen and gifted the staff with the most incredible maple whiskey; the new guy at WoW who spent the entire day of his first event schlepping water for the Chirurgeons; the lady at SAAD who, dressed in full gorgeous Flemish, gave her day to the kitchen for cooking, serving and then cleaning till the wee hours.


But for purposes of this discussion, Rorik, Darius, Ernst, Brion and Michael ... When They/they stood and DID and led by example, these are the moments in which I have felt amazed by those who would lead in this organization. It is the ultimate inspiration toward courtesy, honor and respect in my mind.


What they wore on Their/their heads or what they were entitled to, was and is of much less significance to me.





Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 19:23:54 -0400

From: <maire_ohalowrane at mackermakkeep.com>

To: <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>

Subject: Re: [MR] Disturbing Compliment


When we were in Drachenwald... our first event was at Hoenburg Castle on the

Czec border. We were downloading our van and getting everything up into the

main house.. we slept in the castle.. Our van didn't fit in the gate so we

had to carry stuff up from basically the moat area hehe. And two very nice

gents offered to help us.. didn't find out till later one was the King and

the other became Crown Prince. It was crown tourney. The King was in garb

but not wearing his crown.. I think he was still bringing his own gear up

and not fully "dressed" hehe.


At feast on Saturday evening, the newly crowned prince and two barons also

helped with the clean up of the great hall.




<the end>

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