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crusades-msg - 1/26/08


Crusades of the Middle Ages.


NOTE: See also the files: religion-msg, heretics-msg, pilgrimages-msg, icons-msg, Icons-art, p-bibles-msg, med-charity-lnks, monks-msg, pilgrimages-msg.





This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.


This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org


I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.


The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.


Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).


Thank you,

   Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                         Stefan at florilegium.org



From: "webersol at epix.net" <webersol at epix.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Muslim name for the Crusades?

Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 21:35:48 -0500


If you are really interested in the Arabic view of the crusades,There is

a book called: Arab histories of the Crusades translated by Francesco

Gabrielli . Published by dorset books in 1957. ibsn 0-88029-452-3

It has many accounts by various Arabic historians of the period and will

give you a new view of the "barbarians from the west" the crusaders.

The main purpose of the crusades was supposedly church supported to save

the holy land but the real purpose was "LOOT" how much could they find

and bring back . Tha Muslim population considered crusaders nothing but

marauding killers and thieves.Uncouth uneducated in even the simplest things.

If you can find this book, read it.


Woody Ebersold webersol at epix.net



From: Robert McCann <rmccann at mesa5.mesa.colorado.edu>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Muslim name for the Crusades?

Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 13:26:46 -0700

Organization: Mesa State College


On 24 Feb 1996, Jeff Suzuki wrote:

> But if memory serves correctly, the only Crusade that could truly be

> called a Christian victory was the first, where the Franks swept down

> upon Muslims who didn't even realize they were at war.  Later on, they

> had Saladin.  


> (Quick trivia question: who established the most successful Christian

> Kingdom during the Crusades, and which crusade was it?  Hint: this is

> a trick question)


> Jeffs


OK, the trivia Question:


There were NO successful (ie. still existant) kingdoms established during

the Crusades!


Other stuff:


The Muslims called the Crusaders the Franj


I am doing a book review for my History of the Islamic World class on a

book entitled:


The Crusades Through Arab Eyes

by: Amin Maalouf

Translated by Jon Rothschild


Schocken Books / New York 1985


It's a good read that claims basically that the only reason that the

Arabs (Muslims) didn't kick some serious Crusader ass right from the

beginning was the fact that they (the Muslims) were too busy with their

own squabbles and disputes to get their shit together.  Once they did

(Saladin, et. al.), history shows the result!


Faelan MacFergus

Bob McCann



From: Doug Browne <dbrowne at indiana.edu>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: REQUEST: 1st Crusades garb documentation

Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 15:22:33 -0500

Organization: Indiana University


Sadira bint Raya al-Asiri allegedly wrote:

> I would daresay your French crusader could go one of two ways--either he would

> go native and adopt the dress of the region (the intelligent thing to do) or

> he would have been Franco-centric and stayed with his own native dress

> (probably more likely but dumb). ... (Suggestions for sources deleted)


Actually, many of the Crusaders who stayed adopted

native garb and dress. William of Tyre's _A

History of Deeds Done Beyond the Sea_ mentions

many Crusaders, and especially their children, who

adopted native garb.  William was less than

pleased with these 2nd generation immigrants, who

adopted native dress and customs to a much larger

degree than he was comfortable with.

Usamah, in his _A History of Damascus_, writes of

going to the house of a Frank and being told "You

amy eat here. I have a Muslim cook and eat only

what he prepares. No pig's flesh touches my



Vladyslav de Jaffa

dbrowne at indiana.edu



Subject: ANST - Templars and the Crusades

Date: Tue, 10 Mar 98 19:21:31 MST

From: Rick Wynne <richard at speakeasy.org>

To: Ulisse <whiteknight at iol.it>

CC: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG


Unto the Good People of the Known World does Brother Richard de Tyre send

his humble greetings,


For those peope who are not familiar with me, allow me to introduce

myself. I am Brother Richard de Tyre, of the Order of the Temple of

Solomon, and I am pronouncing a new web site forum for research and

discussion for those of interest in the historical order of the Templars

and the Crusades.


Our dream within the Dream is to recreate those noble brothers within the

Society. I call on all those with Templar personas or anyone interested in

learning more about them and the Crusades to see our web site and contact

me. We have created a meeting place for all interested in the Templars and

we are collecting links, graphics and text related to them. So far we have

made contact with a couple of Templar "households" and scattered

individuals from all across the globe.


It is a new site and we seek suggestions, advice and other input to make

it a better place for all. Some of you reading this missive have already

run across me spreading the news and I apologize for what may seem a

shameless advertising campaign but I seek to reach all people, far and



Order of the Temple of Solomon



I would like to thank you all for taking the time to read this missive

and encourage you to come by and take a look at our work. Safe journeys!


Non Nobis, Domine, Non Nobis Sed Nomini Tuo Da Gloriam

(Not to us, Lord, not to us but to Thy name give the Glory)


In Service to the Temple,

Brother Richard de Tyre

Order of the Temple of Solomon




Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 14:07:19 MST

From: "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)" <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>

Subject: Re: Pincushions (was RE: ANST - Slings)

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG


Tomonaga wrote:

> > > Agreed. In fact there was a "game" amongst Crusader knights to see

> > > who could come back with the most arrows stuck in their armor.

> > > Until the advent of the longbow the arrow was not a major factor

> > > against the  heavily armored knights.


> I remember hearing some time in the past, that Richard and some other Crusade

> leaders made special efforts to make sure their knights and men at arms were

> equipped with very thick felt underclothes.  Most likely, mail by itself,

> lying close to the body, did not offer enough resistance to arrows to keep

> them from digging in deep.  But with the felt under the mail, the combination

> of that dense fiber mat, with the friction between the arrow shaft and

> adjacent links, slowed the arrow enough to keep it from pentrating flesh.


But "very thick felt underclothes" I can see working in say, France, since it

is such a cold, dreary country. :-) But in the Middle East and Palestine,

I would think you'd get yourself dry roasted.


Stefan li Rous



Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 22:46:57 MST

From: "H.L. Agnarr Thorvaldsson" <agnarr at apex2000.net>

Subject: Pincushions (was RE: ANST - Slings)

To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>


>But "very thick felt underclothes" I can see working in say, France, since it

>is such a cold, dreary country. :-) But in the Middle East and Palestine,

>I would think you'd get yourself dry roasted.


>Stefan li Rous


This was one of the main problems the Crusaders had to deal with. The =

desert heat and having to wear their armor whenever the many different =

roaming bands of locals were in the area and  playing their games of hit =

and run. (A Common type of attack by the Muslims because in a fixed =

battle the heavy cavalry charge was a major winning point for the =

Crusaders.) This forced the Crusaders to either wear their armor and =

roasting or no armor and being attacked.  The ability of the locals =

using their recurve bows not to mention their fine Damascene Blades made =

wearing the heavier European style of armor with the heavy felt =

gambesons underneath pretty much a requirement for the crusading knight. =

Of course no armor made you lighter and not as hot but then you did not =

have any personal protection. And since the majority of the crusading =

knights were used to this type of protection when they were in battle. I =

bet most of them were very uncomfortable most of the time.





Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 01:22:42 -0700

From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at efn.org>

Subject: Re: SC - Holy Feast and Holy Fast


LrdRas at aol.com wrote:

> CBlackwill at aol.com writes:

> << Would the three (or more) Christian Crusades shed any light on the

> pervasiveness of the Christian Church in medieval life?


> Balthazar of Blackmoor >>


> Probably, although the crusaders were for the most part members of noble

> households. It does not shed any light on the food aspect that the original

> poster queried.


Sorry Ras, this is not true. The majority of the crusaders were not

nobles or directly affiliated with noble households. Like any war, most

of those involved were poor. Including but not limited to crusades known

as the Children's Crusade and the Peasant's Crusades- both huge

movements of the underclass that were not only apart from any

'oppressive' nobility or clergy but in some places actively discouraged

by them. This was not for purposes of keeping them 'down', but a

protective measure- most of these peasants left their homes with no

provisions, no weapons or armor, many brought families with them- and

then they attempted thousands of miles on foot. This is not a movement

of people who are bullied by an oppressive master who forces them to

defend the Cross- these are the actions of fervent people- fanatics

even- motivated by their visions of Christ, the Virgin, and the saints.





Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 07:31:11 -0400

From: "Siegfried Heydrich" <baronsig at peganet.com>

Subject: Re: SC - Holy Feast and Holy Fast


> << Would the three (or more) Christian Crusades shed any light on the

> pervasiveness of the Christian Church in medieval life?


> Balthazar of Blackmoor >>


> Probably, although the crusaders were for the most part members of noble

> households. It does not shed any light on the food aspect that the original

> poster queried.


> Ras


   No, the Crusaders that made into the history books were members of Noble

households. There were a huge number of camp followers, support personnel,

and others who went along for the ride as well. Consider the number of

administrators, servants, and teamsters that had to go along with the boss

just to make sure they all got there!


   There were irregulars like the Tafur, who were the absolute dregs of

society, seeking salvation in a crusade. These were used as urban assault

troops; the Crusaders would breach a city wall, withdraw, and let the Tafurs

loose. They had the advantage of being expendable, as well as the peculiar

fact that they wouldn't do any looting. They would, however, rape and murder

to an extraordinary degree, which relieved the Nobles of the necessity for

that. Besides, there was no glory in slaughtering civilians . . .


   There were actually several children's crusades, all of which ended up

with them being sold into slavery. It was a way for a peasant to get off the

farm and see the world, all for the glory of god, and the salvation of his

soul. In short, while there many have been other contributing motives, the

primary inspiration was religious in nature, and it covered the entire

social spectrum.


   The Crusades were not just a glorified Pennsic for the Nobles - it

touched virtually every aspect of life. An amazing amount of wealth got

shifted around because of it. Not just what was spent in the effort, or the

treasure sent back, but the inheritances that wound up being bestowed upon

those who didn't go, and never really expected to get the family fortune.

The ones who got stuck staying at home while the older brothers went off to

war . . . . And the number of wealthy widows who were remarrying.


   The social after effects of the Crusades make a fascinating study!





From: "j'lynn yeates" <jyeates at realtime.net>

To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>

Subject: ANST - Deus lo volt ... was: Courtesy Crusade

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:27:56 -0500


what with the thread on "courtesy crusasdes" (imnsho: bad idea) and

the folk bringing up the negative issues connected to any "crusade",

thoght i would share a new book that i just discovered

(synchronicity) ...


Deus lo volt! Chronicle of the Crusades" by Evan S. Connell


"A masterly novelist re-creates the medieval campaigns in all their

depravity, faith and gore. ..."


"... Why is it that new centuries and millenniums seem to bring out a

thirst for moral certitudes, for struggles to the death between the

forces of good and evil? ... "


"... "Deus lo volt!" almost spookily reproduces, from within, the

particular sensibility -- spiritual, cognitive, literary -- of a

particular moment in history. In this case, the events unfold

starting in 1096, when Pope Urban launches the crusades to free

Jerusalem from the "infidels, ... "


" ... The result is something of a tour de force: a meticulous

re-creation of the style and technique of medieval chronicles that

speaks powerfully to the contemporary new historicist creed that

fictions can be archives -- and archives, fiction. That said, "Deus

lo volt!" is also one seriously tough read. The Reading Group Guide

for the book -- available at bookstores or by phoning (800) 242-7737

- -- includes maps, genealogies and a timeline, which are sure to come

in handy for those readers not gifted with a superhuman memory for

seemingly countless names, battles, itineraries and intricate,

shifting alliances. The book is likewise crammed with material best

avoided over one's morning latte and scone: vanquished fighters being

led about by their intestines, roasted on spits and splattered with

various manner of bodily effluvia ..."

By Marion Lignana Rosenberg, Salon EZine




... all in all sounds like a good read for the historically inclined.

from the initial description, just the "readers guide" to the book

sounds like something any medieval scholor could use in their library


Deus Lo Volt!: A Chronicle of the Crusades

by Evan S. Connell

Hardcover - 480 pages (April 4, 2000)

Counterpoint; ISBN: 1582430659 ; Dimensions (in inches): 1.46 x 9.35

x 6.42


available online at amazon and/or barnes and noble for $19.60'ish

plus shipping




From: "j'lynn yeates" <jyeates at realtime.net>

To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>

Subject: ANST - re - Courtesy Crusade ... response and some related links

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:15:15 -0500


... a good thread from a medieval history point of view


[mailto:owner-ansteorra at ansteorra.org]On Behalf Of Dale, Richard N

> I think many people are reading to much into the word "crusade". In

> a medieval context a crusade is wonderful thing that motivates

> children and adults and moves whole nations in a good cause.


not necessarily, especially in a organization focused on *historical*

research (and a lot of literary fiction and idealogy ... but that's

another thread topic).  if someone wants to publically "raise a

crusade", they they should be aware that they are also going to raise

the historical aspects along with the ideological.  


good cause?  crusades a wonderful thing?   are we reading the same

european and islamic histories here?  how can one equate the

albigensian crusade, the sack of belgrade (chistian sacked by

christain), the sieges and eventual sacks of constantiople

(wealthiest christian city in europe, sacked by the crusdaers) and

jerusalem ... as "good" in any/way/shape/form ???


while i find such (crusades) historically interesting, personally i

find *nothing* wonderful about five centuries of chaos created

primarily by the church political propaganda machine .. a machine

that led to the slaughter of an untold number of christians and

moslems (mostly non-combatant civilians), cities and villages

destroyed, rape, pillage, theft ... and the attendent political

posturing, religious expansion, mercantile maneuvering ... all in

all, they (crusades) brought out the *worst* of europe and not it's



for several (here and offline), the most chilling parallel that this

thread brings up is the "albigensian crusade" ... in that it was

raised against a populations subset that was deemed as "heretical"

and therefore worthy of isolation, designation, later persecution,

and eventual extermination.  it started at one level and ended up as

a civil war waged against ones own populations. their real crime?

they thought and believed differently from those in power.  


basic lesson of these five centuries - all in all, no matter the

origin or ideals involved, holy war is not a good thing ...


> ... The word crusade also brings to mind a extremely

> motivated, narrow minded, preacher on some ideology.

> While all the above descriptions are true, I do not believe

> this to be the case in what Her Grace Duchess Larissa is trying to

> convey.  


i'm sure that is the case (the later statement), but we are a

historically centric group (supposidly) so you can't "sanitize"

concepts of their inconvenient negative contexts.  like history, you

have have to take it as a whole, positive and negative or not at all.




some  historical links that might be of interest:


The Crusades: Five Centuries of Holy War



Chronology of the Crusades (sub page of above)



The Crusades (Course centering on First through Seventh)




Albigensian Crusade




Crusade of 1101




Crusade Links






Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 15:21:03 +0100 (MET)

From: "agora at algonet.se" <agora at algonet.se>

Subject: Ang: [Sca-cooks] A history of the Crusades

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org



A friend wants to know:

> Now I have a question that you people will be the experts on--what's the

> best history of the Crusades?  Runciman's classic is way out of date but

> nobody seems to have had the courage to redo it--

> best--Gene Anderson


Opinions, and your reasoning are quite welcome.


Saint Phlip,




Amin Malouf "The Crusades from the Arabs view" is a terrific good book,

a tale of the tales of the "defeated". How the Arabs saw the Crusades, how

they dealt with the Europeans. Anna Commenas book "The Alexiad" is also

a very good reading. She was the oldest daughter of the emperor Alexis,

founder of the dynasty Commeno.

She tells the history of the Crusades from the point of Byzantium. Well

written and full of wit too...


Ana, on holiday on my old country, Uruguay. When I amback to Stockholm

and reach my library, with several titles about the Crusades, can answer

more properly.



Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 21:29:03 +0100

From: agora at algonet.se

Subject: [Sca-cooks] www.crusading.se

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


By the way, I launched the last week a site around a project me and

a group of colleagues started two years ago, about the Crusades.

We are going to research about Art, politics and history related to the

Crusades. One important issue will be the encounter and the clash

between different food traditions and spices and methods to cook.

Please feel free to send to me suggestions or interesting links!





PS: we are going to work about the Crusade as historical proyect

and todays confrontations between Islam and West and the rethoric

of the Crusades.


The Israelian architect Eyal Weizman wrote a great essay called

"The Politics of Verticality" and I wrote about him, he is going to be a

part of our discussion team,



SkarpnŠcks AllŽ 45



<the end>

Formatting copyright © Mark S. Harris (THLord Stefan li Rous).
All other copyrights are property of the original article and message authors.

Comments to the Editor: stefan at florilegium.org