monks-msg - 1/26/08
Medieval monks and orders. Monk's clothing.
NOTE: See also the files: p-bibles-msg, popes-msg, relics-msg, saints-msg, religion-msg, rosaries-msg, crusades-msg, burials-msg.
************************************************************************
NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************
From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Monk will-be needs answers
Date: 24 Jan 1995 16:58:01 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
THOMAS LEE FARNSWORTH <farnth at wwc.edu> wrote:
> A: From browsing this net, I've picked up that a Franciscan
>monk's clothing was mostly shades of brown, correct?
It was grey at first. I believe it was in the sixteenth century
that members of a reform movement started wearing brown to
distinguish themselves from the unreformed who were still wearing
grey.
> B: Someone also mentioned that Franciscan's were the
>plainest in their living and dress. Could someone fill me in on
>this also.
The Franciscans (until they got soft and in need of reform)
practiced extreme poverty. For an example of Franciscan poverty
in action, see if you can get hold of a book called _A Right to
Be Merry_ by Mother Mary Frances of the Poor Clares (the
Franciscan enclosed nuns).
>I realize that during the High middle ages and early
>Ren. Monastaries controlled much land, and so dressed quite
>wealthily. How were Franciscans different?
See above regarding poverty, and note that the Franciscan friars
are not monks, in that they do not live monastically, enclosed on
a piece of monastic land to which they have vowed stability.
(As opposed to the Poor Clares, to say nothing of the
Benedictines, Carthusians, Carmelites, etc. etc.)
> C: How appropriate would it be to learn Staff sparring for
>self defense? (To fend off those nasty bandits the Shire Reeve
>never caught :)
It would depend on how devout a Franciscan you were. A really
devout Franciscan, instead of fighting off the nasty bandits,
would let them take everything he had, preaching love and
forgiveness all the while. St. Francis took the Gospels
seriously and literally.
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
From: mizzi at aol.com (Mizzi)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Monk will-be needs answers (Kind of long)
Date: 24 Jan 1995 10:21:14 -0500
Hope you're enjoying the persona building business. I'm no expert on the
later history of the Franciscans but their inital founding was as a
largely itinerant group of young men who wandered around being fed and
sheltered by good souls who had compassion for them. Their aim was to
live extremely simply with all their meager belongings held in common.
Their main activity (when not begging for food) was praying for the world.
Their founder was extremely fond of nature and very sensitive to the life
of birds, wolves etc. Stories abound about St. Francis talking to the
birds and persuading a wolf to leave a certain town alone. If you are a
nature child, the persona of one of these early Franciscans may be good.
By the way St. Francis and most of his initial followers came from wealthy
trading families. They were appalled by the hipocracy & cynicisim they
saw their parents practice. They rejected the empty values of wealth &
ease for a more spritual life close to nature.
*About land, while orders of monks owned land, an individual monk owned
nothing. He often only had the use of his habit not the ownership of it.
St Francis was trained in military matters and even served an army term as
a proper young gentleman before he gave up on the world. He and his
followers, however, avoided violence as far as I know. Remember that this
started as an Italian movement. Hope this is helpful.
From: Marjorie Nelson <marge at frognet.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: 8th Century Monks, etc.
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 22:19:15 -1000
Fr. Morgoth:
Hope this isn't too elementary but you might start with two Penguin
classics:
The Age of Bede which contains Bede's Life of Cuthbert (Cuthbert was my
kind of saint! - played with otters on the beach), Lives of Abbots of
Wearmouth and Jarrow; Eddius's Life of Wilfrid; and (fanciful) The Voyage
of St. Brendan.
Bede: Ecclesiastical History of the English People
Marjory de Dundee
From: jeffs at bu.edu (Jeff Suzuki)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 8th Century Monks, etc.
Date: 31 Oct 1996 01:30:39 GMT
Organization: Boston University
Hi! I'm not sure what the start of this thread was, but another book
I'd like to add to the list is _Light from the West_, by William
H. Marnell, which deals with the works of the Irish monks.
Jeffs
From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Monk's robe
Date: 9 Feb 1997 02:42:43 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Jo Beverley <wp823 at freenet.victoria.bc.ca> wrote:
>I've still not seen my monk's robe instruction here. ...
No more than you have. I thought somebody else would've posted it by
now, but since they haven't here it is.
"From wp823 at vifa1.freenet.victoria.bc.ca Thu Jan 30 13:19:22 1997
"
"Monk's Robe
"
"Measure person across shoulders and down the arms about 4 inches. (This
"would be for average adult male. Use common sense.)
"Cut four pieces of cloth this wide, and as long as nape to heel.
"Piece 1 is the back.
"Pieces 2 and 3 are left and right fronts.
"Piece 4 is divided in three. (Pieces will be the original width x 1/3 the
"nape to heel.)
"This gives two sleeves and a hood.
"
"The sewing together should be fairly obvious. The fronts are sewn to the
"back, matching them at the shoulder, and with the fronts leaving extra
"hanging loose in the middle. The sleeves are added to this body piece,
"centered on the shoulder seam. The whole [here Jo's mailer appears to
have hiccupped, but the logical conclusion is, "is seamed up the sides."]
"
"The hood piece is folded in half and seamed on one side. This is the back of
"the hood and is matched to the center back. Then the bottom edge of the hood
"is sewn to the loose flaps of the front. This makes a very deep hood.
"
"You can hem or blanket stitch the raw edges. I don't know what is authentic.
"
"Use cord for belt to hold it together.
"
"I got this years ago from an interesting book which had patterns taken from
"ethnic and historical garments. There's a medieval Danish cape which is
"interesting, but quite complicated to convey without graphics. It would be
"worth hunting through your library.... [here Jo's mailer appears to
have hiccupped again and the rest of the sentence is lost.]
"
"Jo Beverley, historical romance author.
This pattern reminds me of a description of a monk's robe quoted
in an Albert Campion whodunit, viz.,
Allingham, Margery, 1904-1966. The tiger in the smoke, a novel.
Garden City, N.Y., Doubleday, 1952.
In which the vicar's wife has made him a dressing-gown according
to the ancient pattern ...take four pieces as long as the brother is
tall from the shoulder, and as wide as whatever.... and the
sight of him scares the living heck out of somebody who broke in
one evening trying to burgle the church.
dcm
From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Clergy
Date: 18 Mar 1997 17:38:49 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
In article <332DA978.466D at sisna.com>, Pamela <dherrmann at sisna.com> wrote:
>Hi there! I was wondering if anyone can send me info and/or point me to
>a book or web page that deals with and shows pictures of period priest,
>clergy or any other religious-type wear. Thanks in advance for any info!
There are an awful lot of them. You might try (a) searching in
the library catalog for things like "religious habits", and (b)
narrowing yourself down to a century or two. "Period" is
"anything before 1600." Even if you establish a _terminus post
quem_ of 476, that's still more than 1100 years. I can tell you
one thing about early period habits if you like: for St.
Benedict's monks there weren't any. Chapter 55 of his Rule
says the monks should wear "whatever is available in the area, or
whatever is cheapest," He mentions a tunic and cowl for indoors,
a shirt to work in, and shoes for the feet, and says two sets are
enough, one for cold weather and one for warm, and to provide an
opportunity for laundry occasionally.
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West Albany, California
PRO DEO ET REGE djheydt at uclink
From: panther at ici.net
To: markh at risc.sps.mot.com
Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 10:32:29 -0400
Subject: Franciscanism
The Franciscan Archive: A WWW resource on St. Francis of Asssi and
Franciscanism is online at
http://www.ici.net/cust_pages/panther/francis/
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 22:15:18
From: Edwin Hewitt <brogoose at pe.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: St Francis of Assissi
>Could anyone help me with finding an appropriate saints day for Saint
>Francis of Assissi, so that we canb hold a feast in his honour? We need
>pre-Vatican II, preferably for norther germany 15th - 16th century.
>miesje
Interesting question, since the calendar has been in such flux over time.
Currently, October 4th is reserved as his feast day on the revised
Roman-Rite Calendar.
The Franciscan Web Page is:
http://listserv.american.edu/catholic/franciscan/
and it has a great background on Francis and the Franciscans.
Also try the New Advent Catholic On-line Encyclopedia at:
http://www.knight.org/advent/cathen/06221a.htm for Francis, and
http://www.knight.org/advent/cathen/06217a.htm for info on the Orders
he founded. The following is from the last URL:
Fransican Order
A term commonly used to designate the members of the various foundations of
religious, whether men or women, professing to observe the Rule of St.
Francis of Assisi in some one of its several forms. The aim of the present
article is to indicate briefly the origin and relationship of these
different foundations. It is customary to say that St. Francis founded
three orders, as we read in the
Office for 4 October:
Tres ordines hic ordinat: primumque Fratrum nominat Minorum:
pauperumque fit Dominarum medius: sed Poenitentium tertius sexum
capit utrumque. (Brev. Rom. Serap., in Solem. S.P. Fran., ant. 3,
ad Laudes)
These three orders -- the Friars Minor, the Poor Ladies or Clares, and the
Brothers and Sisters of Penance -- are generally referred to as the First,
Second, and Third Orders of St. Francis.
Edwin
Subject: Fwd: Re: 12th C. Augustinian Monk's Habit
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:41:11 PDT
From: "Dug Swank" <eburhard at hotmail.com>
To: stefan at texas.net, piusma at UMDNJ.edu, eburhard at hotmail.com
This is what I found out about Augustinian Monk's Habits.
Thanks for your input!
Bonifatius Eburhard der Oger
************************************************************
>Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 11:32:02 -0700
>From: John Pejza <jpejza at ix.netcom.com>
>To: Dug Swank <eburhard at hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: 12th C. Augustinian Monk's Habit
>
>Dug Swank wrote:
>> Greetings to thee, Father Jack Pejza:
>> from Bonifatius Eburhard der Oger [mundanely known as Dug Swank]
>>
>> Grace and Peace from God our Father, Amen.
>>
>> I found your page on Geocities, and hope that you could help direct me
>> in my search for the peripheries of a 12th c. Augustinian Monk's Habit.
>> I am a member of a medieval re-creation group, the Society for Creative
>> Anachronism, [http://www.sca.org], and authenticity is very important
>> for our members.
>>
>> In mundane life, I am a Lutheran, but in society, I am a crusader who
>> has taken the cowl. Given my Lutheran heritage, I would like to
>> represent an Augustinian Monk.
>>
>> Any assistance on this would be greatly appreceiated.
>> Deo gratius!
>> Bonifatius/Dug
>
>The Augustinian habit consists of a black tunic, ankle-length, with long
>sleeves. All mendicant religious orders have pretty much the same basic
>tunic, although in a different color (brown for Franciscan, for instance).
>This is fastened at the waist by a long (7') leather cincture (basically a
>long leather strap about an inch wide, with a 2" ring at one end. The
>cincture goes around the waist, wraps around the ring, then goes through it
>to cinch it. The loose end of the cincture then falls toward the ground;
>depending on the length, it can be from knee-length to ankle-length. The
>final piece of the habit is a capuche or cape which is hard to describe.
>In front, generally it extends from the neck to the waist; in back it is
>pointed and is butt-length. The hood is not hard, as with the Capuchin
>habit, but is soft. I'll see if I can find a picture to send to you.
> The Augustinians, by the way, were formed in 1244 A.D. by a decree from
>the pope who joined several groups of monks/hermits into the Order.
>
>Father Jack Pejza
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:30:19 -0700
From: Heather Senkler <wl835 at victoria.tc.ca>
Subject: Re: 12th Century Augustinian monks habit
On 17 May 1998, Mark Robinson wrote:
> If someone does write such an article on how medieval habits have changed
> over time, I would love to have a copy! Right now I'd like to know what
> Benedictine monks and nuns wear nowadays as opposed to what they wore in
> the Middle Ages.
>
> Nyssa of Iona <cugan at execpc.com>
Well, here in Seagirt, we have a Franciscan Monastery. One of the monks
took a vow to wear the traditional robes. Brown robe, white rope belt,
hood. (It looks REALLY hot in summer) You can sometimes see him waiting
for a bus downtown or walking along the street. Apparently he has been
asked from time to time where the SCA event was that he was heading for.
He laughs it off and politely informs the asker that he is a real monk and
although he knows about the SCA he has no idea if there is an event on or
not.
The local nuns wear "everyday" dress as far as I have seen.
Lady Ekatarina Borisovna
Subject: Re: Franciscan habits
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 98 07:57:52 MST
From: griffevents at cableinet.co.uk
To: "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)" <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>
Mark.S Harris wrote:
> Thank you for this input. Just recently there was an individual on
> the Rialto (the rec.org.sca newsgroup) asking about the robes of a
> particular order (I think it started with an "A" but the particular
> one has slipped my mind). No one had details for him and all I could
> do was point him toward my one small file which is a bit barren of
> details.
Probably Augustinian (Black Cannons) or Austin Cannons, both the same
thing Don't know about dress I'm afraid.
> I will add this message to the file. If you have more info or some
> good referances, particularly on how the clothing of the different
> habits varied, I would appreciate it. I'm still trying to find out myself.
It's not until you really start looking for detailed information that you
realise how little there is and what there is is very unclear and ambiguous.
Even today, Cistercian habits seem to differ slightly from country to
country although the basic form is the same.
> What do you do different when you are performing as a Fransiscan vs.
> as a Cistercian? Do you do more than change outfits?
Yes, as well as locations. It is ok for a Friar to be pretty nearly
anyplace and doing most types of work but obviously the monastic orders
stay put. Unlike the SCA we (we meaning my colleagues and I, I work most
with The White Company 1450-1485) do not adopt personalities or
characters and usually only speak in third person. As I am a
professional actor/performer I can do first person but only if I'm paid
enough.......
The basic idea is to educate the public/schoolchildren/whoever in as
direct and easily understandable way as possible so usually it is made
clear that although I may be dressed as Monk/Friar/Roman slave/Civil War
seargeant/Elizabethan fencing instructor etc, etc I am in fact a 20th
century person and am there to answer questions and give out as much
information as is needed. There are pros and cons to both sides
obviously but for the amount of work I do it is far easier to stick to
3rd person and only do 1st if it is scripted and one way.
When monk or friar I try and highlight the differences between the
lifestyles, the way or working, the rules, the layout of the buildings
and their function etc. When a monk I am usually a lay brother, my chant
is awful so I prefer to talk about shepp sheering or illuminating rather
than singing the litany. Unlike 'knights' or 'lords', holy people have a
better chance of turning up most places so I find it useful to be a
friar especially when organising large events. I have 'access all areas'
when barefoot and ranting about the sins of man.
Please feel free to ask any other questions. Regarding books, there are
obviously very many but the most useful is a simple little pocket book
called 'Discovering Abbeys and Priories' by Geoffrey N. Wright, Shire
Books ISBN 0 85263 454 4. It is pretty much a beginners torist guide to
English sites but does have some useful stuff and is small enough to
carry in a satchel or snapsack without being noticed. Best to ignore the
crap victorian pictures of Monks habits though. It only costs £3.00
here, I could get you one and send one if you wanted.
Mark Griffin
Subject: Re: Re: ANST - Sumptuary Laws Elsewhere
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 98 16:44:23 MST
From: "Bob Dewart" <gilli at seacove.net>
To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>