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monks-msg - 2/6/11

 

Medieval monks and orders. Monk's clothing.

 

NOTE: See also the files: p-bibles-msg, popes-msg, relics-msg, saints-msg, religion-msg, rosaries-msg, crusades-msg, burials-msg.

 

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NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

 

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

   Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                         Stefan at florilegium.org

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From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Monk will-be needs answers

Date: 24 Jan 1995 16:58:01 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

THOMAS LEE FARNSWORTH <farnth at wwc.edu> wrote:  

>     A: From browsing this net, I've picked up that a Franciscan

>monk's clothing was mostly shades of brown, correct?

 

It was grey at first.  I believe it was in the sixteenth century

that members of a reform movement started wearing brown to

distinguish themselves from the unreformed who were still wearing

grey.

 

>     B: Someone also mentioned that Franciscan's were the

>plainest in their living and dress.  Could someone fill me in on

>this also.

 

The Franciscans (until they got soft and in need of reform)

practiced extreme poverty.  For an example of Franciscan poverty

in action, see if you can get hold of a book called _A Right to

Be Merry_ by Mother Mary Frances of the Poor Clares (the

Franciscan enclosed nuns).  

 

>I realize that during the High middle ages and early

>Ren. Monastaries controlled much land, and so dressed quite

>wealthily. How were Franciscans different?  

 

See above regarding poverty, and note that the Franciscan friars

are not monks, in that they do not live monastically, enclosed on

a piece of monastic land to which they have vowed stability.

(As opposed to the Poor Clares, to say nothing of the

Benedictines, Carthusians, Carmelites, etc. etc.)

 

>     C: How appropriate would it be to learn Staff sparring for

>self defense?  (To fend off those nasty bandits the Shire Reeve

>never caught :)

 

It would depend on how devout a Franciscan you were.  A really

devout Franciscan, instead of fighting off the nasty bandits,

would let them take everything he had, preaching love and

forgiveness all the while.  St. Francis took the Gospels

seriously and literally.

 

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin          Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                   UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable           djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu

 

 

From: mizzi at aol.com (Mizzi)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Monk will-be needs answers (Kind of long)

Date: 24 Jan 1995 10:21:14 -0500

 

Hope you're enjoying the persona building business.  I'm no expert on the

later history of the Franciscans but their inital founding was as a

largely itinerant group of young men who wandered around being fed and

sheltered by good souls who had compassion for them.  Their aim was to

live extremely simply with all their meager belongings held in common.

Their main activity (when not begging for food) was praying for the world.

Their founder was extremely fond of nature and very sensitive to the life

of birds, wolves etc. Stories abound about St. Francis talking to the

birds and persuading a wolf to leave a certain town alone. If you are a

nature child, the persona of one of these early Franciscans may be good.

By the way St. Francis and most of his initial followers came from wealthy

trading families.  They were appalled by the hipocracy & cynicisim they

saw their parents practice.  They rejected the empty values of wealth &

ease for a more spritual life close to nature.

*About land, while orders of monks owned land, an individual monk owned

nothing. He often only had the use of his habit not the ownership of it.

St Francis was trained in military matters and even served an army term as

a proper young gentleman before he gave up on the world.  He and his

followers, however, avoided violence as far as I know.  Remember that this

started as an Italian movement.  Hope this is helpful.

 

 

From: Marjorie Nelson <marge at frognet.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: 8th Century Monks, etc.

Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 22:19:15 -1000

 

Fr. Morgoth:  

Hope this isn't too elementary but you might start with two Penguin

classics:

The Age of Bede  which contains Bede's Life of Cuthbert (Cuthbert was my

kind of saint!  - played with otters on the beach), Lives of Abbots of

Wearmouth and Jarrow; Eddius's Life of Wilfrid; and (fanciful) The Voyage

of St. Brendan.

 

Bede: Ecclesiastical History of the English People

 

Marjory de Dundee

 

 

From: jeffs at bu.edu (Jeff Suzuki)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: 8th Century Monks, etc.

Date: 31 Oct 1996 01:30:39 GMT

Organization: Boston University

 

Hi! I'm not sure what the start of this thread was, but another book

I'd like to add to the list is _Light from the West_, by William

H. Marnell, which deals with the works of the Irish monks.  

 

Jeffs

 

 

From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Monk's robe

Date: 9 Feb 1997 02:42:43 GMT

Organization: University of California at Berkeley

 

Jo Beverley <wp823 at freenet.victoria.bc.ca> wrote:

>I've still not seen my monk's robe instruction here. ...

 

No more than you have.  I thought somebody else would've posted it by

now, but since they haven't here it is.

 

"From wp823 at vifa1.freenet.victoria.bc.ca Thu Jan 30 13:19:22 1997

"

"Monk's Robe

"

"Measure person across shoulders and down the arms about 4 inches. (This

"would be for average adult male. Use common sense.)

"Cut four pieces of cloth this wide, and as long as nape to heel.

"Piece 1 is the back.

"Pieces 2 and 3 are left and right fronts.

"Piece 4 is divided in three. (Pieces will be the original width x 1/3 the

"nape to heel.)

"This gives two sleeves and a hood.

"

"The sewing together should be fairly obvious. The fronts are sewn to the

"back, matching them at the shoulder, and with the fronts leaving extra

"hanging loose in the middle. The sleeves are added to this body piece,

"centered on the shoulder seam. The whole [here Jo's mailer appears to

have hiccupped, but the logical conclusion is, "is seamed up the sides."]

"

"The hood piece is folded in half and seamed on one side. This is the back of

"the hood and is matched to the center back. Then the bottom edge of the hood

"is sewn to the loose flaps of the front. This makes a very deep hood.

"

"You can hem or blanket stitch the raw edges. I don't know what is authentic.

"

"Use cord for belt to hold it together.

"

"I got this years ago from an interesting book which had patterns taken from

"ethnic and historical garments. There's a medieval Danish cape which is

"interesting, but quite complicated to convey without graphics. It would be

"worth hunting through your library....  [here Jo's mailer appears to

have hiccupped again and the rest of the sentence is lost.]

"

"Jo Beverley, historical romance author.

 

This pattern reminds me of a description of a monk's robe quoted

in an Albert Campion whodunit, viz.,

Allingham, Margery, 1904-1966.  The tiger in the smoke, a novel.

Garden City, N.Y., Doubleday, 1952.

 

In which the vicar's wife has made him a dressing-gown according

to the ancient pattern ...take four pieces as long as the brother is

tall from the shoulder, and as wide as whatever....  and the

sight of him scares the living heck out of somebody who broke in

one evening trying to burgle the church.

 

dcm

 

 

From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Clergy

Date: 18 Mar 1997 17:38:49 GMT

Organization: University of California at Berkeley

 

In article <332DA978.466D at sisna.com>, Pamela  <dherrmann at sisna.com> wrote:

>Hi there!  I was wondering if anyone can send me info and/or point me to

>a book or web page that deals with and shows pictures of period priest,

>clergy or any other religious-type wear.  Thanks in advance for any info!

 

There are an awful lot of them.   You might try (a) searching in

the library catalog for things like "religious habits", and (b)

narrowing yourself down to a century or two.  "Period" is

"anything before 1600."  Even if you establish a _terminus post

quem_ of 476, that's still more than 1100 years.  I can tell you

one thing about early period habits if you like: for St.

Benedict's monks there weren't any.  Chapter 55 of his Rule

says the monks should wear "whatever is available in the area, or

whatever is cheapest,"  He mentions a tunic and cowl for indoors,

a shirt to work in, and shoes for the feet, and says two sets are

enough, one for cold weather and one for warm, and to provide an

opportunity for laundry occasionally.

 

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                          Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                                Albany, California

PRO DEO ET REGE                                     djheydt at uclink

 

 

From: panther at ici.net

To: markh at risc.sps.mot.com

Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 10:32:29 -0400

Subject: Franciscanism

 

The Franciscan Archive:  A WWW resource on St. Francis of Asssi and

Franciscanism is online at

 

http://www.ici.net/cust_pages/panther/francis/

 

 

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 22:15:18

From: Edwin Hewitt <brogoose at pe.net>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: St Francis of Assissi

 

>Could anyone help me with finding an appropriate saints day for Saint

>Francis of Assissi, so that we canb hold a feast in his honour? We need

>pre-Vatican II, preferably for norther germany 15th - 16th century.

 

>miesje

 

Interesting question, since the calendar has been in such flux over time.

Currently, October 4th is reserved as his feast day on the revised

Roman-Rite Calendar.

 

The Franciscan Web Page is:  

http://listserv.american.edu/catholic/franciscan/

and it has a great background on Francis and the Franciscans.

Also try the New Advent Catholic On-line Encyclopedia at:

http://www.knight.org/advent/cathen/06221a.htm for Francis, and

http://www.knight.org/advent/cathen/06217a.htm for info on the Orders

he founded.  The following is from the last URL:

 

Fransican Order

 

A term commonly used to designate the members of the various foundations of

religious, whether men or women, professing to observe the Rule of St.

Francis of Assisi in some one of its several forms. The aim of the present

article is to indicate briefly the origin and relationship of these

different foundations. It is customary to say that St. Francis founded

three orders, as we read in the

Office for 4 October:

 

   Tres ordines hic ordinat: primumque Fratrum nominat Minorum:

pauperumque        fit Dominarum medius: sed Poenitentium tertius sexum

capit utrumque.           (Brev. Rom. Serap., in Solem. S.P. Fran., ant. 3,

ad Laudes)

 

These three orders -- the Friars Minor, the Poor Ladies or Clares, and the

Brothers and Sisters of Penance -- are generally referred to as the First,

Second, and Third Orders of St. Francis.

 

Edwin

 

 

Subject: Fwd: Re: 12th C. Augustinian Monk's Habit

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:41:11 PDT

From: "Dug Swank" <eburhard at hotmail.com>

To: stefan at texas.net, piusma at UMDNJ.edu, eburhard at hotmail.com

 

This is what I found out about Augustinian Monk's Habits.

Thanks for your input!

Bonifatius Eburhard der Oger

************************************************************

>Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 11:32:02 -0700

>From: John Pejza <jpejza at ix.netcom.com>

>To: Dug Swank <eburhard at hotmail.com>

>Subject: Re: 12th C. Augustinian Monk's Habit

>Dug Swank wrote:

>> Greetings to thee, Father Jack Pejza:

>> from Bonifatius Eburhard der Oger [mundanely known as Dug Swank]

>> 

>> Grace and Peace from God our Father, Amen.

>> 

>> I found your page on Geocities, and hope that you could help direct me

>> in my search for the peripheries of a 12th c. Augustinian Monk's Habit.

>> I am a member of a medieval re-creation group, the Society for Creative

>> Anachronism, [http://www.sca.org], and authenticity is very important

>> for our members.

>> 

>> In mundane life, I am a Lutheran, but in society, I am a crusader who

>> has taken the cowl.  Given my Lutheran heritage, I would like to

>> represent an Augustinian Monk.

>> 

>> Any assistance on this would be greatly appreceiated.

>> Deo gratius!

>> Bonifatius/Dug

>The Augustinian habit consists of a black tunic, ankle-length, with long

>sleeves. All mendicant religious orders have pretty much the same basic

>tunic, although in a different color (brown for Franciscan, for instance).

>This is fastened  at the waist by a long (7') leather cincture (basically a

>long leather strap about an inch wide, with a 2" ring at one end.  The

>cincture goes around the waist, wraps around the ring, then goes through it

>to cinch it.  The loose end of the cincture then falls toward the ground;

>depending on the length, it can be from knee-length to ankle-length. The

>final piece of the habit is a capuche or cape which is hard to describe.

>In front, generally it extends from the neck to the waist; in back it is

>pointed and is butt-length.  The hood is not hard, as with the Capuchin

>habit, but is soft. I'll see if I can find a picture to send to you.

 

>    The Augustinians, by the way, were formed in 1244 A.D. by a decree from

>the pope who joined several groups of monks/hermits into the Order.

>Father Jack Pejza

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:30:19 -0700

From: Heather Senkler <wl835 at victoria.tc.ca>

Subject: Re: 12th Century Augustinian monks habit

 

On 17 May 1998, Mark Robinson wrote:

> If someone does write such an article on how medieval habits have changed

> over time, I would love to have a copy!  Right now I'd like to know what

> Benedictine monks and nuns wear nowadays as opposed to what they wore in

> the Middle Ages.

>

> Nyssa of Iona <cugan at execpc.com>

 

Well, here in Seagirt, we have a Franciscan Monastery. One of the monks

took a vow to wear the traditional robes. Brown robe, white rope belt,

hood. (It looks REALLY hot in summer) You can sometimes see him waiting

for a bus downtown or walking along the street. Apparently he has been

asked from time to time where the SCA event was that he was heading for.

He laughs it off and politely informs the asker that he is a real monk and

although he knows about the SCA he has no idea if there is an event on or

not.

 

The local nuns wear "everyday" dress as far as I have seen.

 

                               Lady Ekatarina Borisovna

 

 

Subject: Re: Franciscan habits

Date: Thu, 04 Jun 98 07:57:52 MST

From: griffevents at cableinet.co.uk

To: "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)" <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>

 

Mark.S Harris wrote:

> Thank you for this input. Just recently there was an individual on

> the Rialto (the rec.org.sca newsgroup) asking about the robes of a

> particular order (I think it started with an "A" but the particular

> one has slipped my mind). No one had details for him and all I could

> do was point him toward my one small file which is a bit barren of

> details.

 

Probably Augustinian (Black Cannons) or Austin Cannons, both the same

thing Don't know about dress I'm afraid.

 

> I will add this message to the file. If you have more info or some

> good referances, particularly on how the clothing of the different

> habits varied, I would appreciate it. I'm still trying to find out myself.

 

It's not until you really start looking for detailed information that you

realise how little there is and what there is is very unclear and ambiguous.

Even today, Cistercian habits seem to differ slightly from country to

country although the basic form is the same.

 

> What do you do different when you are performing as a Fransiscan vs.

> as a Cistercian? Do you do more than change outfits?

 

Yes, as well as locations. It is ok for a Friar to be pretty nearly

anyplace and doing most types of work but obviously the monastic orders

stay put. Unlike the SCA we (we meaning my colleagues and I, I work most

with The White Company 1450-1485) do not adopt personalities or

characters and usually only speak in third person. As I am a

professional actor/performer I can do first person but only if I'm paid

enough.......

 

The basic idea is to educate the public/schoolchildren/whoever in as

direct and easily understandable way as possible so usually it is made

clear that although I may be dressed as Monk/Friar/Roman slave/Civil War

seargeant/Elizabethan fencing instructor etc, etc I am in fact a 20th

century person and am there to answer questions and give out as much

information as is needed. There are pros and cons to both sides

obviously but for the amount of work I do it is far easier to stick to

3rd person and only do 1st if it is scripted and one way.

 

When monk or friar I try and highlight the differences between the

lifestyles, the way or working, the rules, the layout of the buildings

and their function etc. When a monk I am usually a lay brother, my chant

is awful so I prefer to talk about shepp sheering or illuminating rather

than singing the litany. Unlike 'knights' or 'lords', holy people have a

better chance of turning up most places so I find it useful to be a

friar especially when organising large events. I have 'access all areas'

when barefoot and ranting about the sins of man.

 

Please feel free to ask any other questions. Regarding books, there are

obviously very many but the most useful is a simple little pocket book

called 'Discovering Abbeys and Priories' by Geoffrey N. Wright, Shire

Books ISBN 0 85263 454 4. It is pretty much a beginners torist guide to

English sites but does have some useful stuff and is small enough to

carry in a satchel or snapsack without being noticed. Best to ignore the

crap victorian pictures of Monks habits though. It only costs £3.00

here, I could get you one and send one if you wanted.

 

Mark Griffin

 

 

Subject: Re: Re: ANST - Sumptuary Laws Elsewhere

Date: Tue, 20 Oct 98 16:44:23 MST

From: "Bob Dewart" <gilli at seacove.net>

To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

 

Let me relate my experience with "belts".  Many years ago I had a friar

personna. Part of a friar's garb is a white rope belt with three knots at

the end.  The belt is called a cincture.  Some confused this 1/2 inch wide

white rope belt being worn by a friar for that of a knight's belt.

 

Presently HL Gilli former Friar Gillian of Gallway(1975-1983)

 

 

Subject: Re: ANST - info on monks?

Date: Tue, 20 Oct 98 18:42:35 MST

From: "Bob Dewart" <gilli at seacove.net>

To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

 

>Thank you for this info on a friar's outfit. Which house used this white

>belt? All of them? What was the outfit color itself?

> Lord Stefan li Rous

 

We were the Abby of St.Hubert the Huntsman.  To my knowledge, they were all

white. The knots represented the vows of obediance (see why I gave it up),

chasity (see why I gave it up) and poverty(and I was that way any way).

 

The friars robe was made out of a material called "Monk's cloth".  It was

brown. It looked like burlap in its weave, but was much softer to the

touch. Please don't ask where to get it--I don't know.  The outfit was made

by HL Noman's mother and I traded him a crossbow for it.  As to the quality

of the garb, I was mistaken for a friar by a real Friar at an event at the

Munsonburg(SP?) Castle in Germany.

 

I don't off hand remember the references.

 

Gilli

 

 

From: cailean at celide.ndirect.co.uk (Andrew C. Ferguson)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: "monk" personas

Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 21:36:59 GMT

Organization: Anamchara Fellowship

 

Any one with a Celtic Monk persona, check out

www.celide.ndirect.co.uk.

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: djheydt at kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)

Subject: Re: Portraying a monk? Resources?

Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd.

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 00:24:36 GMT

 

First off, get to your best available library and find a copy of

the _Rule of St. Benedict._  You may choose to play a m,onk of

some other order, but Benedict's Rule is the oldest in Western

monasticism and a large part of its foundation.  Note that if you

play a monk, one who is living the monastic life, you will have

to have (at least within your own imagination) some errand you

are on to explain why you're out in the world instead of staying

in your monastery.  If you're a friar, working out in the world,

that won't be necessary.

 

I dare say this thread will continue for a few days, which will

give me time to upload and post a formula for constructing a

traditional monk's robe.  Or if your best available library

contains a copy of a whodunit called _The Tiger in the Smoke_ by

Margery Allingham, you'll find the formula in Chapter One or

maybe Two.

 

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                         Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                               Albany, California

PRO DEO ET REGE                               djheydt at kithrup.com

 

 

From: david.razler at worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Portraying a monk? Resources?

Date: 24 Nov 1998 02:07:06 GMT

 

djheydt at kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

| First off, get to your best available library and find a copy of

| the _Rule of St. Benedict._  You may choose to play a m,onk of

| some other order, but Benedict's Rule is the oldest in Western

| monasticism and a large part of its foundation.  Note that if you

| play a monk, one who is living the monastic life, you will have

| to have (at least within your own imagination) some errand you

| are on to explain why you're out in the world instead of staying

| in your monastery.  If you're a friar, working out in the world,

| that won't be necessary.

 

My first secondary resource would be Eco, of course, who also provides a great

deal of information on the rules of several other orders.

 

My second primary reference <after the Rules> would be to get a library to

provide you with the Plan of St. Gall<sp?>, the two-volume reference on a

period monestary and substantial information on the lives lived by its

occupants.

 

                               david/Aleksandr

 

David M. Razler

david.razler at worldnet.att.net

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: djheydt at kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)

Subject: Re: Portraying a monk? Resources?

Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd.

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 03:58:28 GMT

 

David M. Razler <david.razler at worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>My second primary reference <after the Rules> would be to get a library to

>provide you with the Plan of St. Gall<sp?>, the two-volume reference on a

>period monestary and substantial information on the lives lived by its

>occupants.

 

Uh, excuse me, that's *three* volumes.  I happen to own a copy.

But I don't know if that'll be of any use to the original poster,

'cause I don't know where he lives.  (Original poster, if you

live in or can get to the Bay Area, do by all means drop by....)

 

Meanwhile, here's the monk's robe pattern.

 

Measure the person across the shoulders and down the arms about

four inches.  That's measurement A.  Measure him from nape to

heel. That's B.

 

Secure four pieces of cloth (linen or wool are good) measuring A

by B.  Piece 1 is the back, pieces 2 and 3 are the fronts.

 

Divide piece 4 in three crosswise, so that you have three pieces

A x B/3.  These will be the sleeves and hood.

 

Attach 2 and 3 to 1 at the shoulders, leaving a reasonable amount

of the center of 1 unsewn to provide enough neck room (a quick

basting and try-on will help here).  There will be lots of

overlap in the fronts.

 

Fold each sleeve piece to find the center; match that to the

shoulder seam; sew the sleeve on.  Repeat.  Sew the side seams.

 

Take the last third of piece 4, fold it in half, seam it on

one side.  That's the back of the hood, and is matched to the

center back.  Sew the bottom edge of the hood to the neckline part

of the back and as far along the fronts as it will extend.  This

makes a very deep hood.

 

Hem the edges, unless you started with wool and fulled it in the

washing machine, in which case you have a very *warm* habit whose

edges are felted and don't need hemming.

 

Use a length of thick cotton rope for a belt.

 

Dorothy J. Heydt

Albany, California

djheydt at kithrup.com    

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: djheydt at kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)

Subject: Re: Portraying a monk? Resources?

Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd.

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 16:30:48 GMT

 

WillMize <willmize at aol.comBoink> wrote:

> - The difference between a monk and a friar?  I'm assuming from the original

>poster's explaination that a monk has taken certain vows which keep him

>cloistered, whereas a friar is doing more public service.  Any further

>clarification?

 

That's essentially right.  A monk has taken vows to live the

monastic life, which include "stability to his chosen house".

There's a wonderful line in the Rule that says a monastery should

have everything it needs within its walls--gardens, workshops,

what not--"so that the brothers need never go outside, which can

in no way be good for them."  If they do go outside for any

reason they need permission from the Abbott.  Mind you,

particularly as the centuries rolled on, there arose *lots*

of reasons for getting permission.  Friars came along later--

both the Franciscans and the Dominicans were founded in the

12th century--and they did not take the vow of stability; they

were intended to wander about preaching.

 

> - I live in Florida and baby, it's hot outside. I'm thinking a dark brown

>linen would be preferrable to a wool (egad!).

 

Yes, linen will definitely be your thing.  Though wool will

breathe too.

 

Any other alternatives?  Any

>other accessories besides a rope belt?  Rosary?  Sandals?  

 

Sandals. Rosary, yes, since you said you wanted to be Elizabethan.

(The Rosary in the form we usually see it is also twelfth-century--

the story is that Our Lady gave it to St. Dominic in a vision.)

You will want a simple, unobtrutive  pin or brooch to hold your

robe shut at the neck; the rope belt will hold the rest of it

shut. In many periods you would also wear a scapular, a simple

arrangement of two narrow panels of fabric, fastened at the

shoulders, and held in place by the belt, but maybe you don't

want to add more fabric yet.  You can put small things (a letter,

e.g.) in the pocket formed by the belted scapular.  Nothing big

enough to show.   Failing that, wear a little drawstring pouch

on your belt to hold the absolutely necessary essentials: car

keys, ID, money....

 

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                         Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                               Albany, California

PRO DEO ET REGE                               djheydt at kithrup.com

 

 

From: tadhg at bigfoot.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Portraying a monk? Resources?

Organization: EDS Global Financial Products

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 03:54:03 GMT

 

Scripsit willmize at aol.comBoink (WillMize) :

>  After a thirteen year absense, I'm mulling over the possibility of rejoining

> the SCA and thought I'd portray a man a monk.  Time period uncertain, but

> leaning toward Elizabethan.  I've tried altavista to no avail for SCAdian

> references or guilds that have information on such a portrayal and persona.  

>    Perhaps you good folks might know of such places?  Please respond to the

> list, as I am sure that I'm not the only one who might be interested. Thank

> you kindly.

 

There are no "Elizabethan" monks. The English monasteries were dissolved by

her father, and monks were illegal in England during her reign; the Church

of England didn't get monks again until the 19th century. If you mean

non-English monks of the same period (1558-1603), you might want to

consider French, German, Spanish, or Italian.

 

David Knowles, Christian Monasticism

Giles Constable, Medieval Monasticism : a Select Bibliography

Pierre Salmon, The Abbot in Monastic Tradition

Jean Leclerc, Aspects of Monasticism

(unknown), Benedictine Culture 750-1050

Noreen Hunt, Cluniac Monasticism in the Central Middle Ages     H. E. J.

Cowdrey, The Cluniacs and the Gregorian Reform

Peter O'Dwyer, Celi De: Spiritual Reform in Ireland 750-900

Roy Midmer, English Mediaeval Monasteries (1066-1540)

Peter Levi, The Frontiers of Paradise: A Study of Monks and Monasteries

James A. Mohler, The Heresy of Monasticism; the Christian Monks: Types and

Anti-types; an Historical Survey

John Ryan, Irish Monasticism: Origins and Early Development

Jane E. Sayers, Life in the Medieval Monastery

George Zarnecki, The Monastic Achievement

Christopher Nugent Lawrence Brooke, The Monastic World 1000-1300

 

That ought to get you started.

NB: Make sure it's a monk you want, and not a friar.

================================================================================

Fra Tadhg Liath OFT                                            tadhg at bigfoot.com

The Grumpiest Pelican

 

 

From: tadhg at bigfoot.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Portraying a monk? Resources?

Organization: EDS Global Financial Products

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 04:27:01 GMT

 

Scripsit willmize at aol.comBoink (WillMize) :

>  - The difference between a monk and a friar?  I'm assuming from the original

> poster's explaination that a monk has taken certain vows which keep him

> cloistered, whereas a friar is doing more public service.  Any further

> clarification?

 

A monk is a member of an autonomous contemplative community, typically

following the Rule of Benedict or one of its variants. A friar is a member

of a mendicant itinerant order -- the four big ones are the Franciscans,

Dominicans, Augustinians, and Carmelites. Monks live away from secular

society; friars live in the middle of it. And that's not to mention the

canons regular, such as the Augustinians, Premonstratensians, Norbertines,

and so forth....

 

>  - I live in Florida and baby, it's hot outside. I'm thinking a dark brown

> linen would be preferrable to a wool (egad!).

 

A real monk can take the heat. They also use very light white wool in

warmer climates.

 

> Any other alternatives?  Any

> other accessories besides a rope belt?

 

A pious attitude and an acquaintance with Latin.

 

> Rosary?

 

A substitute for the Liturgy of the Hours among the illiterate. Monks

wouldn't need it. (Yes, you will need to know something about the Divine

Office.)

 

> Sandals?

 

Or shoes -- the film NAME OF THE ROSE shows some good ones. Really Serious

Monks (and friars) went barefoot.

================================================================================

Fra Tadhg Liath OFT                                            tadhg at bigfoot.com

The Grumpiest Pelican

 

 

From: dbrummel at io.com (David H. Brummel)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Portraying a monk? Resources?

Date: 25 Nov 98 13:42:54 GMT

Organization: Lough na Dobharchu

 

Replying to a message of Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle:

DTMoA> There are no "Elizabethan" monks. The English monasteries were

DTMoA> dissolved by her father, and monks were illegal in England during

DTMoA> her reign; the Church of England didn't get monks again until the

DTMoA> 19th century. If you mean non-English monks of the same period

DTMoA> (1558-1603), you might want to consider French, German, Spanish,

DTMoA> or Italian.

 

For one view of Irish Monasticism during this period, I suggest the following:

 

Studies in Irish Cistercian History

Colmcille O/ Conbhuidhe OCSO

ed. by Finbarr Donovan

(c) Mellifont Abbey 1998

Four Courts Press Ltd, Dublin

1-85182-378-6 hbk

1-85182-379-4 pbk

 

Available from Kennys Bookshops & Art Galleries Ltd. (www.kennys.ie) for

IL15.00 (+s&h).

 

DTMoA> Fra Tadhg Liath OFT                                          

 

OFT = ??  Franciscans?  (I know I *ought* to know this...)

 

David H. Brummel

 

 

From: bnostran at lynx.neu.edu (Barbara Nostrand)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Portraying a monk? Resources?

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:38:58 -0600

Organization: de Moivre Institute

 

Noble Cousins!

 

Fra Tadhg Liath OFT brings up the abolition of the monasteries. This

is important for Henry as once he broke with Rome he could not afford

Roman feudatories in England. Further, confiscating church land was a

good way to enrich the royal coffers and holdings. This sort of thing

can be found throughout medieval history where enquiries were held

into the land tenures of religious institutions, etc.

 

                                   Your Humble Servant

                                   Solveig Throndardotitr

                                   Amateur Scholar

 

 

From: abrigon at geocities.com

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Portraying a monk? Resources?

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:01:56 GMT

 

mariannep wrote:

> willmize at aol.comBoink (WillMize) wrote:

> >Any

> >other accessories besides a rope belt?  Rosary?  Sandals?  Large comfy chair?

> >Oh wait... that's the Inquisition.

> For some time we (women, not into cross-dressing) toyed with the idea of

> getting either a extremely worldly bishop or an inquisitor and we did come

> quite close to getting the latter. Both roles need

> to be handled with some delicacy but have the potential of being fun.

> For the bishop, we were ready to make a extremely rich costume (lots of

> brocade here) plus accesories. The "bishop" in question would be a bit of a

> glutton and perhaps even somewhat lewd. He would probably be one of this

> bishops appointed for his political connections rather

> than for his devotion and dedication to a saintly life.

> For the Inquisitor he could be a Dominican (if Spanish, at least) from a

> not-too-tighly controlled place. Games of dice etc would have to be played

> away from his gaze (perhaps with somebody guarding the entrance - as soon as

> the Inquisitor arrives all the ladies change to

> discussing embroidery, all the men to polishing their knives...).

> Also be very careful of inheritances when near the Inquisitor.

> Another character I had thought of (though this time for myself, albeit only

> with sporadic appearances) would be a hermit gone mad - mixing up bits of

> Latin and preaching repentance

> and the end of the world in the most unlikely circumstances. Just

> need a excuse for not being thrown out (cousin of someone powerful?)

> Just a few thoughts for slightly odd church characters!

> Marianne

 

Then there is the older tradition in the East of hermits and like, as well as

monestaries.. There is a distinctness to Eastern versus Western Monastisim,

other than maybe in Ireland, Ireland seems to have had a strong Eastern

Influeces sometime in its past, namely in its rules and life style of monks.

 

It has been a bit since I studied the subject but here goes..

 

There is like the Apostles, namely Mark and Mathew in the Coptic and other

eastern churches. The Hermit life has some rewards, but over time it came to

past that much like the Essenes of the desert of Israel/Judea c.100bc that

communities could be set up away from society.

 

St. Columbine and other Irish/Scotish monks/missionaries preached an even

harder rule than the later Augustian rule, but it fell along the way side

since many europeans could not get into it.

 

Some orders believed in silence contemplation, while others believed in

working for your daily bread.

 

Some set them selves off in forbidding places, and either had individual

cells where as the Monks would only gather for select times. Contant prayer

was often called on, to include self denial training.

 

Other monks went into for a less auster and more open life style of service to

humanity instead of praying for humanity, they often lived near communities.

 

So the basic rules are like: Columbine, Augustian, Benedictine, Francican and

there is others, but most are based in the west on Augustian (who based his

somewhat on the earlier Columbine, but not that much).

 

The western tradition has had some definite different ways and means than the

east.

 

Will see about going into it more later, when I get some sleep, and read more

again ont he subject again..

 

Frater Morgoth (de Wyrd).

Wandering Crimean Goth in 12th century latin/frankish west.

 

 

Subject: monks habits

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:35:41 MST

From: wenner <wenner at pdq.net>

To: "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)" <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>

 

Enjoy the florilegiium.  On the monks' habits section, I would like to

note that in England, areas of London were called "Blackfriars"

"Greyfriars" and "Whitefriars" after the Benedictine, Franciscan, and

Carmelites respectively, although the Benedictines strictly speaking are

not friars.  By the way, only Benedictines take a vow of stability. I

think only Franciscans and branches thereof (like the cloistered,

white-robed Carthusians, who take a vow of silence) wear a rope cincture

with the knots, which symbolize the vows they take.  The other orders

wore some version of a leather belt.  The Domican friars wore white

tunic, cowl,  scapular and mantle, with a black cloak. They alone.  I do

not think Benecictines wear (wore) a scapular.  The rosary was divinely

given to the Dominican order, and when it is worn on the belt of the

habit, it has all fifteen decades (groups of ten beads--"aves", or Hail

Mary prayers,--separated by one bead--"paters" or the Lord's Prayer.)

Other orders sometimes adopted wearing it with some

differences--Carmelites, for example wear a belt rosary of six decades.

By the way, the Carmelites came to europe from the middle east after the

failure of the crusades--when they came, they wore a grey or brown tunic

with a brown scapular, and a cloak with seven broad bars--three white

interspersed by four brown. They had been a laura (group) of hermits

living in caves on Mt Carmel in (then) Palestine but when the reached

England they were told that they were henceforward to be friars,

although they made monasteries and tried to keep a quiet life as befit

former hermits.   The English people thought the striped cloaks

hysterically funny, and called the poor Carmelites "magpie monks" and so

the prior general--an English former hermit elected to head the order,

known to history as St Simon Stock--changed the cloak colour to plain

white, hence the sobriquet "whitefriars."  I do not know what colour the

robes of the Augustinian monks wore, not the Premonstratensians, which

is the only "native" order founded in England.   All orders, or course,

were swept away by Henry VIII at the reformation.

 

 

Subject: Re: monks habits, etc

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 99 11:57:22 MST

From: wenner <wenner at pdq.net>

To: "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)" <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>

 

Mark.S Harris wrote:

> Thank you for this information on monks and their habits. This is a

> Wonderful message with the details that are useful for both understanding

> the orders and what they wore.

 

> Do you have any particular referances to recommend?  

 

Hummm---these gleanings are from several years of reading/research on English history in the 15-16th centuries. Most of the old and valuable  books are out of print, and available to me only at a private library belonging to a Catholic Seminary (branch of University of St Thomas) in Houston.  I am one of the few lay people to have a library card to the place because I am a research assistant to a priest who is also a Texas historian.  I do his frontier Texas stuff, then I race off to the mediaval goodies and devour wonderful books on mediaval law, sociology, architecture, archaelogy until I'm cross-eyed. Eat your heart out!  

 

I should explain why there are so many different orders: each has a

different charism ( translate that variously as character, purpose and

spirituality) which attracts a different sort of person. Benedictines are

sort of a "general purpose" order, which is why they were such a major

influence on the English, who have as a race a traditional preference for

the "middle way" in matters religious as well as political; there was an

equal balance between the purely spiritual, and charitable activity in the

world; between the intellectual and the emotional; between manual labour

and scholarly persuits. Well-balanced, sane, and what today we call a

holistic balanced life.  

 

About the Augustinians I am not sure; I think they tended more towards the purely spiritual, but tended to be fascinated with study of theology as a springboard to interior spiritual development.

 

The Dominicans and Franciscans arose deliberately as roving evangelists

(no monasteries) in response to the heresies which could too easily

corrupt the simple faith of uneducated laypeople.  The Dominicans, significantly, are known as the "order of preachers" and their role is traditionally to take sophistocated theology and make it easily understood by laymen. They quite easily took to the role of school teachers at all levels, and until the Jesuits formed, were the pre-eminent intellectual order of the Church.  The modern missionary order of the Maryknolls who work in Africa and the Far east are a branch of the Dominicans.  

 

The Franciscans were non-intellectuals (althought they produced some noteworthy scholars like Bonaventure and John Duns Scotius, who taught at major universities) who through their simplicity and joy in God's creation "preached" by example complete trust in God's love and unselfish love of neighbor.  You can think of them as a order of holy troubadors or poets, and you will about have it right. Unsuprizingly, the artist Fra Angelico was a Franciscan.  

 

The Carmelites were (are) contemplative mystics, wrapped up in the wonder of God's holiness and love.  You don't hear much about them, because they've always kept a low profile in their priories, but they are a dynamo of spiritual energy praying for the salvation of the world.  Because of their close union with God, the best Carmelites to this day can pray for and obtain miracles, if these are beneficial to the salvation of souls. If you put a very spiritually advanced Carmelite with a similar Sufi (mystic Muslim ) and a Hadassim (mystic Jew) the three of them would each delight in the company of the others without any discord, not because they have no theological differences, but rather because they have reached, according to their different spiritualities worshiping the one God, living the highest wisdom: on this earth--madly in love with God for His own sake rather than the gifts He gives, seeing His image in every human being, --and full of kindness and compassion for the rest of suffering humanity who has not yet attained their height of spiritual perfection.  

 

Different topic:  on "rosaries" somebody wanted to know about "Tudor rosaries" --well, remember The Tudors started with Henry VII who was a good if unremarkable Catholic, and included Queen (Bloody) Mary who was a fanatical one (Pope St Pius V told Her to lighten up and merely be tolerant of individual religious freedom, because the English people had suffered too much chopping and changing already; but she wouldn't listen). The Tudors of course are identified with Henry VIII and Elizabeth I who were protestant; but it so happens that when Mary was on the throne, she gave her teen-aged half-sister Elizabeth the  gift of a coral rosary. (So I recall from reading a biography of young Elizabeth some years ago.) So there you have a Tudor rosary, at least of the upper classes.  By the way the Saxon word "bede" means prayer--hence the name of Venerable St Bede, England's first historian.  It is possbly true that the crusaders saw the muslim "rosary" of 99 beads with a tassel (for the 99 praise-name of Allah) and got the idea to make a chaplet of 150 prayers (for the 150 psalms,which most laypeople couldn't read or memorise, like the monks) of beads on a string.  the 150 was divided into three groups of 50 for brevity's sake, which is the structure of the modern rosary.

 

--Raven Wenner

 

 

Subject: Re: monks habits, etc

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 99 09:00:38 MST

From: wenner <wenner at pdq.net>

To: "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)" <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>

 

....It often seems new orders formed when the older orders had changed and

some folks thought they had forsaken their original purposes.  Hey, plenty

of orders disappeared when they outlived their purposes--for exapmple, the

orders of "fighting monks" who protected pilgrims going to the holy

land--The Knights Templars, etc.  (BTW: The modern Rosicrucians have no

genuine historical and religious link to the former--)also  the orders

dedicated to ransoming Christian slaves from the Moors, the really wierd

"Brothers of Death formed in response to widespread depression in the wake

of the Black Death," etc.  Many orders with several branches,e.g.,

Benedicitines, Franciscans, formed those branches as "reforms" trying to

refine or get back to the original founder's spirit under conditions in

changing societies.  There are the ancient order of Carmelites, and then in

1562 the "discalced" (unshod, barefoot) reform pioneered by one of the

wittiest and most intelligent and charismatic women in european history, St

Teresa of Avila.  The discalced now outnumber the ancient order, though

both are extremely ascetic.

 

English religious art-history is my hobby,( (I am married to a Brit and am

lucky enough to go to our family farm in Lancashire one month each year,

where I can look at old churches and rumage through historical libraries)

and I have written a couple of articles on English mediaval shrines for

spcialty religious publications.  Don't be scared off, I'm not a

proselitizer--I'm just fascinated by history and if you want to call it,

religious sociology--how religion affected folklore, customs, politics,

daily life of people then.  I'm really hot on Marian shrines, many of them

having holy wells which have been sacred sites since neolithic times.

There is an excellent  source readily availible to anyone wanting to learn

about the history of religious orders, including some info on habits:  the

1913 edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia on the "New Advent" web page

(use search engine, it will turn up easily) Only problem is, you have to

know what it it is you want before you can look it up.  I suggest people

wanting to learn about monks to start with the entry "Religious Orders"

and the order names; "Order of St Benedict" or Benecitctines, or

Augustininians, Norbertines, etc.  They have a user-friendly index and a

lot of stuff is cross-referenced within articles to define terms that may

puzzle the beginner. Most articles are surprizingly well-written.   Also,

under the hundreds of listings for saints, there are some real

"characters" for anybody wanting a really way-out and frequently quite

charming and attractive persona.  Don't be put off by the number of saints

who have "visions"--they weren't hysterics, and were often genuinely

psychic. Even non-Catholics have visions, even today. (Just ask hospital

chaplains of any denominations--people severely ill or injured sometimes

have mystical experiences, but they don't confide them to just anybody)

another book, only for scholars or the truly dedicated, is a remarkable

recent book called "The stripping of the altars. . ." Popular religion in

England 14--15--" by Cambridge scholar Eamon Duffy or Duffey (look for it

on Amazon, you'll find it)  Some better public libraries have it. I forget

the blank year dates, but it's a fascinating study of the sociology of the

English church in the two generations on each side (before and after, as

it were)of the English Reformation.  This book is a modern classic, and is

the best of what modern revisionist history can be.  I do not recommend it

for any but those accustomed to reading scholarly studies--reading too

much at one time can make you cross-eyed with detail.  However, it is

stylish and frequently humourous, as human nature remains the same in

every age--minutes of a parish meeting in the 15th century to figure out

how to repair the leaking church roof can make you laugh out loud when

you've recently returned from one just like it in your own 20th century

parish; likewise the petty politics of one religious guild ("ladies'

auxilliary") with another for prestige in mounting the best decoration on

a parish feast day will raise a smile. There is a lot about folk-ways in

it, too, superstitious mixtures of prayers to prevent the souring of milk,

curing a toothache, etc.  This book is valuable for giving the "texture"

of religious life before Protestantism caused such emotional upheval in

society, which is important to any understanding of the mediaval religious

experience.

 

--Raven Wenner

 

 

From: Michelle Donovan Lunt <varmint at stny.lrun.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pained Decision: Monk or Norseman?

Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 18:18:08 -0400

Organization: Time Warner Road Runner - Binghamton NY

 

Matt Clark wrote:

> I am facing a dilemma of the minor sort. As a new member, I have to

> choose my persona, and I cannot decide what I want to be.

>

> I would like to be a monk, preferably of the Benedictine order. (Maybe

> Jesuit so I can fight) I go to a Benedictine school and I would like to

> find out more about those "guys in black that teach." This would give me

> an excuse to study them. I would choose my exact era later.

 

I'm also trying to develop my persona now - so I understand!

 

I don't know much about the Viking angle, but I learned a bit about some

of the religious orders while studying medieval art in grad school. But

you might look into the history of religious orders in Scandinavia -

perhaps you could be a Norseman _and_ a monk (though I doubt it)!

 

Keep in mind that a Jesuit persona would pretty much require you to be

late period since the order was founded in 1541 (or 1534, depending on

your source). Also, the Jesuit headquarters were in Paris, so such a

persona must have spent some time in Paris, at least for the appropriate

Jesuit education. The Jesuits were founded by an ex-soldier, but they

were primarily a teaching and evangelical order. They specialized in

cultural studies; by knowing a culture and its ways, they could learn

what arguments for Christianity would work best to convert its people.

 

For an earlier fighting/religious persona, you might want to consider

the Crusades era military orders. The members of these orders lived

according to "rules" similar to those of the monastic orders, but also

incorporating fighting. The earliest of these is the Templars, founded

in 1120 to protect pilgrims to the Holy Land; within a few years, they

were also taking part in battles against the Muslims. The Hospitallers

of St. John, the Teutonic Order and the Order of St. Thomas of Acre are

others. Of course, this option would require that your persons has spent

some time in the Holy Land. From the weather reports from Pennsic, this

might be a good one since when you pull out the middle eastern garb to

get cool, you have a story to tell and a good reason to have such garb!

(I'm considering a persona who's spent time in the East myself, for that

reason.)

 

A Benedictine persona might well depend on the era you choose. In the

early middle ages, the Benedictines were attempting to establish

themselves as an order, by the high middle ages, they had become

dominant through their near monopoly on education, but also very wealthy

and (along with the wealth) perhaps a bit corrupt. Soon after this, the

cathedral schools and universities developed, and as they grew in size

and number, they began to eat away at the Benedictines main contribution

to medieval society. Criticism of the corruption mounted, culminating

the the foundation of a number of reformed orders (among them the

Cistercians and later the Franciscans and Dominicans). If your persona

likes shaking things up, you might be a rebellious late period

(12th-13th c.) Benedictine who is in sympathy with the reformers,

whereas if your persona likes the good life, you might wish to be a mid

era (10th -11th c.) monk from a wealthy monastery such as Cluny.

 

Michelle - in search of persona and name!

 

 

From: "Dr. Tiomoid M. of Angle" <tadhg at bigfoot.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pained Decision: Monk or Norseman?

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 22:59:59 GMT

 

Matt Clark wrote:

> I would like to be a monk, preferably of the Benedictine order.

 

Excellent choice! A basic persona suitable to any time and place in period. You

might want to study Latin, just for verisimilitude.

 

       Timothy Fry, ed., THE RULE OF ST BENEDICT, ISBN 037570017X

       Hugh Feiss, ed. & tr., ESSENTIAL MONASTIC WISDOM, ISBN 0060624833

       Columba Stewart, PRAYER AND COMMUNITY: THE BENEDICTINE TRADITION, ISBN

1570752192

 

> (Maybe Jesuit so I can fight)

 

(a) Jesuits are very late period. See http://www.uofs.edu/admin/jeshist.html.

(b) Jesuits didn't fight except in self-defense. They were mostly teachers and

missionaries.

 

"After its founding in 1540, the Society of Jesus grew rapidly and assumed an

important role in the renewal of the Catholic Church. Jesuits were educators, scholars, and missionaries throughout the world. They were also preachers and catechists who devoted themselves to the young, the sick, prisoners, prostitutes, and soldiers. They were often called upon to be confessors to the ruling families of Europe." (Ibid.)

 

(c) If you want to be a monk and fight, be one of the military religious orders:

Templar, Hospitallar, Teutonic, Santiago, Calatrava, Alcantara.

 

       Desmond Seward, THE MONKS OF WAR: THE MILITARY RELIGIOUS ORDERS, Penguin USA, ISBN 0140195017, $11.16 at Amazon).

 

But be aware that they followed a variant of the Augustinian Rule, not the

Benedictine.

 

> I go to a Benedictine school and I would like to find out more about those

> "guys  in black that teach."

 

Well, that would be the Black Friars (Dominicans). In period, Benedictines

weren't all that involved in teaching; their main goal was the life a sanctified

life apart from the world.

 

> This would give me an excuse to study them.

 

[You need an excuse to study something you're interested in? Whoa....]

 

> I would choose my exact era later.

 

No need even to do that. A Benedicting persona will fit in anywhere (same garb,

same interests) from 600 A.D. to 1600 A.D. It's a very low-maintenance persona.

 

Fra Tadhg Liath OFT

The Grumpiest Pelican

SCITIS IMPLETI * NOSCE IGNOTIS

 

 

From: Sk8maven <sk8maven at monumental.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pained Decision: Monk or Norseman?

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 19:36:15 -0400

 

Michelle Donovan Lunt wrote:

> you might look into the history of religious orders in Scandinavia -

> perhaps you could be a Norseman _and_ a monk (though I doubt it)!

 

Once the Scandinavian countries were Christianized (roughly circa AD

1000), it was *very* possible. Norsemen even served in the various

fighting Orders. You would be likeliest to find them in the Teutonic

Knights, due to geographic proximity, but they were also Templars and

Hospitallers, and and some just went Crusading on their own the way they

used to go a-Viking.

 

I'm afraid being Norse and a Jesuit is right out, though - the

Scandinavian countries went Lutheran right about the time the Jesuit

order (Catholic) was being founded.

 

 

From: Gil/Caichear <caichearsca at uswest.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pained Decision: Monk or Norseman?

Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 11:14:04 -0600

 

One good place to look for more information on the Order of Saint benedict

is the Official Website:

http://www.osb.org/

 

Caichear mac Giolla Muire

 

 

From: demery at ieaccess.net (Dana S. Emery)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pained Decision: Monk or Norseman?

Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 22:06:44 -0400

 

no problem being a monk, and generally pretty easy to garb, so a common

initial personna.  However when playing in the SCA you are obviously 'in

the world', so would not be part of a cloistered order.

 

The military orders of knights templar and knights hospitaler are another

possibility, and to this end I commend you to a recent book I found at

Barnes & NObles for $7.98 - Eric Brockman, "The two sieges of Rhodes: The

Knights of St. John at War 1480-1522.

--

Dana S. Emery

demery at ieaccess.net

 

 

From: MClark2 at webtv.net (Matt Clark)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pained Decision: Monk or Norseman?

Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 14:17:46 -0500 (CDT)

 

I was looking through the Rule of Saint Benedict (Yes I have it at home)

and I came across a certain section dealing with the Brothers who are

sent away.  

 

Excerpt: Chapter 50. Brothers Working at a Distance or Traveling.

Brothers who work so far away that they cannot return to the oratory at

the proper time-and the abbot determines that is the case-are to perform

the Work of God where they are, and kneel out of reverence to God.

 

This would lead me to believe that St. Benedict knew that the monks

would be gone from the monastery for a journey. What could this journey

be? We know that they ran errands between monasteries and other places,

but when you factor in Boniface, who I mentioned earlier, it seems to

paint a picture that some Benedictines did go forth and proclaim the

Good News.  

 

With this evidence, I think it is safe to say that some Benedictines

did preach the Gospel.

 

Matthew William Clark

 

 

From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pained Decision: Monk or Norseman?

Date: 20 Aug 1999 16:50:13 -0400

Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC

 

Greetings from Arval!  Matt Clark quoted:

> Excerpt: Chapter 50. Brothers Working at a Distance or Traveling.

> Brothers who work so far away that they cannot return to the oratory at

> the proper time-and the abbot determines that is the case-are to perform

> the Work of God where they are, and kneel out of reverence to God.

 

and interpretted:

 

> This would lead me to believe that St. Benedict knew that the monks would

> be gone from the monastery for a journey. What could this journey be? We

> know that they ran errands between monasteries and other places, but when

> you factor in Boniface, who I mentioned earlier, it seems to paint a

> picture that some Benedictines did go forth and proclaim the Good News.

> With this evidence, I think it is safe to say that some Benedictines did

> preach the Gospel.

 

I'm sorry, but the passage you quoted doesn't support that conclusion at

all. Working "so far away that they cannot return to the oratory" says

nothing at all about what the monks were doing.  They could have been

gathering herbs in the forest, tending sheep in the hills, visiting the

sick in outlying settlements, harvesting grain from a distant field, or any

of a thousand other tasks that have nothing to do with preaching.  

===========================================================================

Arval d'Espas Nord                                         mittle at panix.com

 

 

From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" <nicolaaMUNGED at columbus.rr.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pained Decision: Monk or Norseman?

Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:54:46 -0400

Organization: Road Runner Columbus

 

>> I just am saying that Saint Benedict left many possiblities open with

>> this rule about being able to leave the monestary for extended lengths of

>> time.  Including preaching.

>Also including walking on the moon.  That doesn't provide any support at

>all for your belief that they _did_ preach.

 

From what I can tell, the early missions conducted by the Benedictines to

the Germanic peoples did not involve preaching as we know it--that is, in a

formal sermon. Sermons were still seen as exercises for the learned, and

thus somewhat unsuitable for those who were the targets of missions. In many

cases, the missionaries targeted the leading citizens of a community

(royalty and other leading men) for personal evangelization, and generally,

if they converted, the rest of the community would eventually follow suit.

There is a tendency to assume that people converted then much as they did

today--after hearing sermons,or studing scripture, or otherwise learning

about the faith.  Those in the leading positions may have done this, but

often their people converted first and learned about the faith afterwards.

 

Sermons were more common by the eleventh or twelfth century, but were almost

exclusively given by secular clergy, rather than the cloistered. Heck, what

was considered so revolutionary about the mendicant orders of the thirteenth

century, including the Dominicans (or Order of Preachers) is that they were

regular clergy (that is, living under a Rule) who were not cloistered, but

rather travelled around in the community. Sermons were often part of this.

This coincides with a rise in interest in hearing sermons (especially those

preached by learned clergy, which the Dominicans were required to be)

amongst the laity.

 

Nicolaa

 

[Submitted by: "Alderton, Philippa" <phlip at MORGANCO.NET>]

From: Paul Halsall <phalsall at unf.edu>

To: byzans-l at lists.missouri.edu <byzans-l at lists.missouri.edu>;

mediev-l at ukans.edu <mediev-l at ukans.edu>

Date: Monday, November 08, 1999 5:04 PM

Subject: Chilander on CD

 

>Chilander is a monastery on Mount Athos which in 1198 was refounded by

>St. Sava as a the Serbian monastery on Athos.

>At the Byzantine Studies Conference this past weekend Dr. Taylor

>Hostetter [hilandercd at hotmail.com] presented one of the most fascinating

>CD-Roms I have ever seen.

>Called, _In the Heart of Hilander_ ($32) it is a complete three

>dimensional presentation of the monastery church of the foundation. The

>work presents a complete photographic record of the inside and outside

>of the Church (think of a sort of Byzantine version of Myst or Doom), in

>which every image of the Church is viewable, many in different sizes

>(although the pictures are not scalable.) Moving the cursor over each

>image calls up the identity of the figure in question, feast days of the

>figure, and a great deal of additional information.

>The work allow much more than this. It also allows sectional views,

>views of the monastery church at different periods of its construction,

>examination of the use of space, and an ability to see the frescos

>without the current monastic furniture (iconstands and so forth.)

>Other modules allow you to play Serbian church music in the background,

>to explore the architectural forms of a Byzantine church, to trace the

>history of Mt Athos, and even to follow Bible stories through the

>paintings. There are even a series of inbuilt databases on the images

>which users can access.

>In all the disk claims to contain nearly 5000 images on over 3000 pages,

>with the ability to see every one of the 950 wall paintings individually

>and in context.

>In other words, this is a stunning achievement -- a CD which does things

>that no book can do, and in a depth that will satisfy almost anyone. The

>promise that it might be a model for further presentations of

>architectural monuments is only icing on the cake.

>Supposedly a website on the project will be set up soon -- with the URL

>http://www.digitalbyzantium.com

>or

>http://digitalbyzantium.com

>In the meantime, I really would encourage any one who wants to enthuse

>students about Byzantium, the medieval Balkans, or the middle ages in

>general, to get hold of the disk. Students I have been showing it to in

>my office all day long have left with their eyes popping.

>Paul Halsall

 

 

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:55:31 EST

From: <SNSpies at aol.com>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Fwd: Merovingian nuns

 

<< Does the Benedictine Rule include information on what the monks/nuns

wore?>>

 

Let me answer my own question!

 

According to  Chapter 55 of the Rule of St. Benedict, written in the 6th

century by Benedict of Nursia, Abbot of Monte Cassino, "we believe ... that

in ordinary places the following dress is sufficient for each monk:  a tunic,

a cowl (thick and woolly for winter, thin or worn for summer), a scapular for

work, stockings and shoes to cover the feet.  The monks should not complain

about the color or the coarseness of any of these things, but be content with

what can be found in the district where they live and can be purchased

cheaply."

 

Further, "... it is sufficient if a monk has two tunics and two cowls, to

allow for night wear and for the washing of these garments ... Those who are

sent on a journey shall receive drawers from the wardrobe, which they shall

wash and restore on their return.  And let their cowls and tunics be somewhat

better than what they usually wear."

 

From what I can gather, nuns following the Benedictine Rules wore the same

clothing.

 

Nancy

 

 

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:34:44 -0600 (CST)

From: "Pixel, Queen of Cats" <pixel at hundred-acre-wood.com>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: the Holy rule

 

On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 Seton1355 at aol.com wrote:

> Does anyone have information or a website that would list the different rules

> of the different orders?

> Phillipa

 

The page www.newadvent.org is a Catholic site with the Catholic

Encyclopedia on it. It has some useful information about the various

orders and rules, at least the little I've looked at.

 

Margaret FitzWilliam of Kent

College of Tor Aerie

 

 

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:38:35 -0500

From: "Kate/Constance" <fairfax at tir.com>

To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>

Subject: RE: the Holy rule

 

Rule of St. Benedict

http://www.osb.org/rb/

 

This rule, written around 530, became dominant in the 8th century.  Most

monasteries followed this rule, although there were often some

modifications.

The Cluniac and Carthusian monastic movements both used the Benedictine

rule--so did the monasteries they were trying to reform.

 

Rule of St. Augustine

http://www.domcentral.org/trad/rule.htm

 

This rule of life was used by a number of groups in the Middle Ages.

St. Dominic adopted it as the rule for the Dominicans, and in the 13th

century (don't have the exact date off the top of my head) a number of

independent hermits and small monasteries were consolidated under the

same rule to form the Order of St. Augustine.

 

The Benedictine and Augustinian rules were also used for women's

monasteries, although they were often modified.  The Benedictine site

has some of these modified versions of the Benedictine rule from the

Middle Ages.

 

Regula Bullata of St. Francis (1223)

http://ofm.org/1/info/Rule.html

 

This is the rule that was approved by the Pope for the Franciscan order.

There are two earlier rules; the rule of 1210 has been lost and the rule

of 1221 was not approved by the Pope; it was replaced with this version,

which is still in force.

 

St. Clare of Assisi wanted to develop a women's order like the Franciscans,

who went into the world instead of staying in cloistered monasteries.

However, she wasn't able to get approval for an order of religious women

who were "in the world," and so the "Poor Clares" became a cloistered

order. I wasn't able to find a Web page with the Rule of St. Clare on it.

 

Alan Fairfax

 

 

Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:06:15 -0500

From: "Kate/Constance" <fairfax at tir.com>

To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>

Subject: RE: the Holy rule

 

I doubt that this is a question that can be answered with any

certainty. The Benedictine rule was not dominant in Europe in the 6th

century; a lot of convents had their own rules or used a different

ones. I've seen references to the Rule of St. John Cassian, the Rule of

St. Augustine, and the Rule of the Master--the only one I found text for was

the Augustinian Rule.  That says:

 

"Avoid singularity in dress, and strive to please others by your conduct and

not by your clothes. Whenever you go out, walk together; when you reach the

place where you are going, remain together. Let there be nothing to offend

the eyes of anyone, whether in your gait, your posture, your dress, or your

movements, but let everything about you be in keeping with the holiness of

your state."

 

The Rule of St. Benedict, 55, says:

 

"Let clothing be given to the brethren according to the nature of the place

in which they dwell and its climate; for in cold regions more will be

needed, and in warm regions less. This is to be taken into consideration,

therefore, by the Abbot.

 

We believe, however, that in ordinary places the following dress is

sufficient for each monk: a tunic, a cowl (thick and woolly for winter, thin

or worn for summer), a scapular for work, stockings and shoes (pedules et

caligas) to cover the feet.

 

The monks should not complain about the color or the coarseness of any of

these things, but be content with what can be found in the district where

they live and can be purchased cheaply.

 

The Abbot shall see to the size of the garments, that they be not too short

for those who wear them, but of the proper fit.

 

Let those who receive new clothes always give back the old ones at once, to

be put away in the wardrobe for the poor. For it is sufficient if a monk has

two tunics and two cowls, to allow for night wear and for the washing of

these garments; more than that is superfluity and should be taken away. Let

them return their stockings also and anything else that is old when they

receive new ones.

 

Those who are sent on a journey shall receive drawers (femoralias) from the

wardrobe, which they shall wash and restore on their return. And let their

cowls and tunics be somewhat better than what they usually wear. These they

shall receive from the wardrobe when they set out on a journey, and restore

when they return."

 

Unfortunately I didn't find any reference to surviving copies of women's

monastic rules from this period.  There is a 9th-C. Old English translation

of the Benedictine Rule that was supposedly adapted for women soon after it

was written, but the earliest surviving adaption dates only to the

1200s. But, based on the descriptions, it sounds like simple, modest

clothing from the area you're in would be appropriate.

 

Fairfax

 

P.S. I checked this translation against the Latin document, and it is a

good translation.

 

 

Subject: Monk's Robe

From: Rubix <rubixNOruSPAM at bigfoot.com.invalid>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 09:13:48 -0700

 

I'm not involved in the SCA, but have been doing some research

on how to make a tradtional Monk's Robe. I found this in the

rec.org.sca archives and was wondering how authentic it really

is:

 

<snip>

Meanwhile, here's the monk's robe pattern.

 

Measure the person across the shoulders and down the arms about

four inches. That's measurement A. Measure him from nape to

heel. That's B.

 

Secure four pieces of cloth (linen or wool are good) measuring A

by B. Piece 1 is the back, pieces 2 and 3 are the fronts.

 

Divide piece 4 in three crosswise, so that you have three pieces

A x B/3. These will be the sleeves and hood.

 

Attach 2 and 3 to 1 at the shoulders, leaving a reasonable

amount of the center of 1 unsewn to provide enough neck room (a

quick basting and try-on will help here). There will be lots of

overlap in the fronts.

 

Fold each sleeve piece to find the center; match that to the

shoulder seam; sew the sleeve on. Repeat. Sew the side seams.

 

Take the last third of piece 4, fold it in half, seam it on one

side. That's the back of the hood, and is matched to the center

back. Sew the bottom edge of the hood to the neckline part of

the back and as far along the fronts as it will extend. This

makes a very deep hood.

 

Hem the edges, unless you started with wool and fulled it in the

washing machine, in which case you have a very *warm* habit

whose edges are felted and don't need hemming.

 

Use a length of thick cotton rope for a belt.

<snip>

 

 

Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:43:04 -0700 (PDT)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>

Subject: SC - St. Benedict the Black

 

And according to my calendar, this is the feast day of

St. Benedict the Black, a 16th century monk renowned

as a superb chef, who promoted the idea, revolutionary

among the faithful, that enjoying food was not sinful.

A manuscript by an earlier monk, Giraldus Cambrensis,

written in 1179, reflected his reaction to banquet

fare: "For you might see so many kinds of fish, roast

and boiled, stuffed and fried, so many dishes

contrived with eggs and pepper by dextrous cooks, so

many flavorings and condiments, compounded together

with like dexterity to tickle gluttony and awaken

appetite."

 

Does anyone know about the writings of Giraldus

Cambrensis? Or about the writings of St. Benedict?

 

Huette

 

 

Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 15:23:52 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - St. Benedict the Black

 

> Does anyone know about the writings of Giraldus

> Cambrensis?  Or about the writings of St. Benedict?

>

> Huette

 

Benedict the Black was not a writer.  Also known as Benedict the Moor, he

was a Negro (hence il Moro) born into slavery in and freed by his master

around age 18.  He joined a Franciscan monastery in Sicily and was reknowned

for his humility and his piety.

 

Giraldus Cambrensis (Gerald de Barry) was quite a writer.  Here is what the

Catholic Encyclopedia ( http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06568d.htm ) has to

say about him:

 

"De Barry was a writer of remarkable brilliancy and force, a narrator rather

than a historian, full of self-confidence, and at times courage, and on the

whole neither the model of perfection which he proclaims himself to be, nor

the despicable character which he is oftentimes painted. His works are

published in the Rolls Series; and in the prefaces to the volumes

indications as to probable dates of composition and publication. Appended is

a list of de Barry's writings: "Topographia Hibernica"; "Expugnatio

Hibernica"; "Itinerarium CambriÊ"; "Gemma Ecclesiastica"; De Instructione

Principum"; "De Rebus a se gestis"; "Vita S. Davidis II episcopi Menevensis"

(which Brewer considers as, more probably, the work of Giraldus);

"Descriptio CambriÊ" (published as the last); "Vita Galfridi Arch.

Eboracensis"; "Symbolum Electorum"; "Invectionum Libellus"; "Speculum

EcclesiÊ"; "Vita S. Remigli"; "Vita S. Hugonis"; "Vita S. Davidis

archiepiscopi Menevensis"; "Vita S. Ethelberti"; "Epistola ad Stephanum

Langton"; "De Giraldo Archidiacono Menevensi"; "De Libris a se scriptis";

"Catalogus brevior librorum"; "Retractationes"; "De jure Menevensis

EcclesiÊ". See introduction to his works by the editors, Brewer and Dimock.

 

The works of Giraldus dealing especially with Ireland: the "Topography", and

"History of the Conquest", though long regarded as possessing considerable

authority, did not escape hostile criticism. In "Cambrensis Eversus" (1662),

under the pseudonym of Gratianus Lucius, Dr. Lynch, of whose personal

history little is known, produced a work which, though controversial in

character, entitles the author to repute rather as a painstaking chronicler

than as a controversialist of a high order. After criticizing the

"Topography" adversely, and showing that the title of the second book, the

"Conquest of Ireland", is a misnomer, the writer of "Cambrensis Eversus"

disproves de Barry's title of historian, and meets his charges against the

Irish people. Giraldus is impeached with ignorance of the language, and

unfamiliarity with the country; he is said to have embodied in his works

unauthenticated narratives, with little regard for chronology; his own

admission that he had "followed the popular rumours of the land" is extended

in meaning, and perhaps unduly insisted upon.

 

Nor is the "Cambrensis Eversus" merely a collection of arbitrary accusations

and unsubstantial rejoinders, made with a view to effect the discredit of de

Barry as a writer of history. What might be urged as the greatest

imperfection of Lynch's polemic, its too great wealth of detail, had not

escaped the attention of the able author, who excuses the diffuseness to

which he is compelled by asseverating his determination to follow Giraldus

closely to the end. Whatever may be said as to the ability with which Lynch

discharged his task of controversialist, there can be no denial of the

thoroughness and, above all, the sincerity of his methods. He does not pick

out the weak points in his opponent's armour, and never shirks the issue;

but grapples with every difficulty, as the order of his opponent suggests.

 

Perhaps the most serious accusation levelled against Giraldus, next to the

indictment of bias and dishonesty, is that wherein he is impeached of being

addicted to the cult of the superstitious and the practice of witchcraft. If

this be true, and Merlin would seem to have exercised a considerable sway

over the mind of de Barry, then it would be vain to seek in the writings of

the latter the reflex of that calm discrimination and sober balance of

judgment which should characterize the historian. Finally, it may be said

that the student of Irish history, by reading the works of Giraldus in the

light of "Cambrensis Eversus", cannot fail to derive a helpful knowledge of

the period which they embrace."

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:41:36 -0600

From: Robert Downie <rdownie at mb.sympatico.ca>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] I Got My Portuguese Convent Sweets Books -

        Who-hoo!

To: SCA_Subtleties at yahoogroups.com, SCA-Cooks at ansteorra.org,

        SCAFoodandFeasts at yahoogroups.com

 

And only 20 Euros for shipping...grumble, grumble...

 

Mesa, Doces e Amores no Sec XVII (the table, sweets and passions in the 17th C)

Docaria Conventual do Alentejo as Receitas e o Seu Enquadramento

Historico (convent sweets of Alentejo, the recipes and their history)

Docaria Conventual do Norte Historia e Alquimia da Farinha (convent

sweets of the north, history and alchemy of flour)

 

Of course, now it's going to take me a while to go through them.

Unfortunately, in quickly skimming the contents, the recipes are not

dated, so there could be modern ones along with the originals.  One of

the introductory chapters mentioned the rise of convent sweets starting

in the second half of the 16th C, and truly blossoming by the 17th C.

and that many of the sweets were created specifically for the nobility,

as these religious orders were also responsible for entertaining Kings.

 

I'll keep notes as I go along, and eventually I hope to have some

useful information to share.  There's a fair amount of info on monastic

life in General there too, by the looks of it.

 

Faerisa

 

 

From: Clarissa Cosgrove <henpeckerssociety at earthlink.net>

Date: February 22, 2006 3:16:02 PM CST

To: stefan at florilegium.org

Subject: monks-msg

 

Stefan,

(You may want to add this bit of info to your "Monks-Msg" thread.)

 

I have been looking into what the New Mexico priests were wearing over the

last 400 years.  The Jesuit priest (16th century) wore black habits.  The

Franciscan priests wore gray habits up to the year of 1832. It was after

1832 that the Franciscan Order started to wear brown habits.

 

When the Franciscan priests were established in New Mexico in the 1600s,

there were some Indian (Native American) sightings of a lady in blue

speaking in many different languages.  Father Benivides who led the first

Franciscan Friars to New Mexico suspected the apparitions were of Sister

Maria de Jesus Ágreda. They referred to her as the blue nun because of the

blue celestial color of her mantle.  Sister Maria de Jesus Ágreda spoke of

visions of visiting Northern New Mexico.  The sightings were between 1620

and 1639.  It wasn't uncommon for New Mexican Franciscan priests to wear

habits of blue after that and up to the 1800s.  I believe they would dye

their gray habits to blue.  Some references suggest the habits were light

blue, and then there is a reference of the habits being the color of demin.

If they were dyeing their gray habits blue, I would suspect the habits to be

a darker hue of blue.

 

St. Anthony de Padua, the patron saint of lost things, was a Franciscan

priest and has been represented in a habit of brown, but I am not sure if

that was the case before the 19th century.  He was born in 1195 in Lisbon,

Portugal. Saint Francis of Assisi was born 1181 in Italy.  I venture to

guess that St. Anthony must have joined the Franciscan Order about the time

it started. Customarily, Franciscan habits were supposed to have been made

of undyed lamb's wool of a grayish color.  I guess that meant black sheep.  

 

I haven't looked any further than this to see if there is a symbolic reason

to the color of the lamb's wool.  There are some things in the history of

Christianity that has fallen to the wayside and are hard to research.

 

Clarissa Cosgrove

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: djheydt at kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)

Subject: Re: Monk's habit for new persona

Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd.

Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 03:55:16 GMT

 

AD <animal37 at comcast.net> wrote:

>Does anyone out there have a pattern for creating a monk's habit for a new

>persona?

 

Here's one quoted by Margery Allingham in her _The Tiger in the

Smoke_ (1952).  An elderly cleric is wearing as a bathrobe

 

"a robe from the formula laid down in the archives of a

thirteeht-century monastery.  The directions had been easy to

follow: 'Of stout black woollen cloth take four equal pieces,

each as long as the height of the Bro. from nape to heel, and as

wide as will stretch across his shoulders from elbow to elbow.

Let the first cover his left breast and the second his right, and

the third shall cover him behind.  Then let the fourth piece be

folded into three, and of these the first shall be for his left

arm, the second for his right, and the third and last for his

head. So shall he be covered and two ells of common rope

encompass his middle.' "

 

If you (or someone) is seriously interested in a monkish persona,

do get hold of a copy of the Rule of St. Benedict, which

prescribes what items a monk is allowed to have ... a pen, a

needle, a spare tunic (thick and fleecy for winter, old and worn

for summer), et cetera.

 

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                         Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West                               Albany, California

PRO DEO ET REGE                               djheydt at kithrup.com

 

 

From: "David Cameron Staples" <staples at cs.mu.oz.au.SPAM>

Subject: Re: Fighting Monks?

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Organization: The University of Melbourne

Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 01:43:22 GMT

 

in Wed, 15 Nov 2006 20:23:26 -0500, AD in hic locum scripsit:

> I would like to find out about fighting monastic orders.

> Any references I can be pointed to?

 

Any rational history of the

-- Knights Templar (Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of

   Solomon),

-- the Knights Hospitaller (also known as Knights of Rhodes, Knights of

   Malta, Cavaliers of Malta, and the Order of St. John of Jerusalem), or

-- the Teutonic Knights (Order of the Teutonic House of Mary in Jerusalem)

 

should get you started. They're the big three.

 

For minor orders, look for the Knights of St Thomas, the Order of Our Lady

of Bethlehem, or the Knights of the Cross (with Red Star), and probably

others.

--

David Cameron Staples | staples AT cs DOT mu DOT oz DOT au

Melbourne University  | Computer Science | Technical Services

 

 

Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 17:18:57 +0100

From: Christophe Bachmann <Chris_CII at Compuserve.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Monk's habit for new persona

 

> People here are trying to talk me into fighter training; are there

> fighting monastic orders?

 

At least three big :

The Sovrano Militare Ordine Ospedaliero di San Giovanni di Gerusalemme

di Rodi e di Malta "Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of St. John of

Jerusalem of Rhodes and of Malta" (Knights hospitallers)

 

The Ordo domus Sanctæ Mariæ Theutonicorum Ierosolimitanorum, "Order of

the Teutonic House of Mary in Jerusalem" (Teutonic Knights)

 

The Pauperes commilitones Christi Templique Solomonici, "Poor

Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon" (Knights Templar)

 

Of these the SMOM is a Benedictine order and is still widely represented.

--

Greetings, Salutations,

Guiraud Belissen, Château du Ciel, Drachenwald,

Chris CII, Rennes, France

 

 

From: Zach Most <clermont1348 at yahoo.com>

Date: June 12, 2008 9:39:57 AM CDT

To: Barony of Bryn Gwlad <bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] The Monks of Castleton!

 

Thomas and I had discussed the white robed monks a bit, and I happened to find a relevant image that folks might be interested in:

http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg848/0092

It's part of a large collection of images mostly of German warrior poets (you might know Essenbach, who wrote Parzival, and Volgelweide who wrote some good surviving early music) which is really worth checking out.

Gaston de Clermont

 

 

Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 01:26:40 +1300

From: Lila Richards <lilar at ihug.co.nz>

Subject: [Lochac] [Fwd: [Medieval_Saints] (+) FYI: The Cistercians in

        Yorkshire Project]

To: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list" <lochac at sca.org.au>,

        sgdiscuss at sca.org.nz

 

For those who might be interested:

 

The Cistercians in Yorkshire Project

http://cistercians.shef.ac.uk/index.php

 

The Cistercians in Yorkshire Project is funded through the New

Opportunities Fund's ground-breaking ?50 million UK-wide digitisation

programme which is designed to enable the learning materials and

resources currently contained in galleries, communities, libraries,

museums, universities and other centres of excellence, to be directly

accessible to homes and communities via the internet. The Fund is the

biggest of the National Lottery good cause distributors.

 

The Project will focus on five of the Yorkshire houses with

significant standing ruins: Fountains, Rievaulx, and Byland

principally, but also Roche and Kirkstall. The architecture of each

site, explained in the context of other local churches (and European

Cistercian abbeys), will open visual and textual windows onto the

Cistercian way of life as experienced by the monks, the lay-brothers

and their secular neighbours.

 

The Cistercians, or `White Monks' , played a major role in the

religious and economic life of medieval England. Among the Yorkshire

houses, Fountains and Rievaulx, both founded in 1132, are of notable

importance and remain popular with visitors of all ages; Fountains

Abbey, indeed, is a World Heritage site. At the centre of the

Cistercian way of life lay the spiritual ideal of settling `in the

desert' , yet the White Monks were to become significant land-owners

in Yorkshire (and beyond) and had a significant, and enduring impact

on their local environment. Many modern communities in Yorkshire live

on, or near, land that was once owned by the Cistercian Order;

residents and local schools will be encouraged, via on-screen prompts,

to explore the history of their local area.

 

 

To: Gleann Abhann (mail list) <gleannabhann at yahoogroups.com>

subject: Re: Monks Habits

Posted by: "Melinda Lafevers" mlaf at sbcglobal.net maybard

Date: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:50 pm ((PDT))

 

<<< From: tylersattic <tylersattic at ...>

Subject: [PerRel] Monks Habits

To: perrel at yahoogroups.com

Date: Monday, September 6, 2010, 9:43 PM

 

I am a beginning weaver and have been looking for information about the type of cloth and possible patterns for monks in the timeframe covered by this group. I only recently joined and have not gotten through all the old messages yet, so perhaps this has already been covered.

 

Brian >>>

 

Oh, my....this website

http://www.osb.org/gen/index.html

which appears to be a website of the Benedictine monks - or at least, a web site all about the Benedictine monks, cites http://www.florilegium.org/  in their bibliography on the page http://www.osb.org/gen/habit.html that discusses Monastic clothing.....

Melandra

 

<the end>



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