p-sex-msg - 7/29/02
Period thoughts on sex and sexual practices.
NOTE: See also the files: birth-control-msg, aphrodisiacs-msg, perfumes-msg,
p-medicine-msg, CA13-msg, pregnancy-msg, prostitution-msg, p-customs-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
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Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: rschirme at digi.lonestar.org (Joe Schirmer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period porn -- I MODI
Date: 12 Mar 93 16:20:38 GMT
Organization: DSC Communications Corp, Plano, TX
ga_tewes at postoffice.utas.edu.au (Alex Tewes) writes:
> ae766 at yfn.ysu.edu (David Sanders) wrote:
>> Unto the perverted gentles here assembled,
>> Vajk sends greetings!
>>
>> Several persons have commented on the overall quality of
>> CA #13, and have commented on the fact that much of the
>> material is OOP.
>>
>> For those looking for period porn, the search may be
>> frustrating, but the stuff IS available.
>
>The Oxford Book of Erotic Verse would be a good source for the more
>literary amongst us ( ie no pictures ;) )
>
>Martin de Mont Blanc
>Shire of Ynys Fawr/Lochac/West
Another good source that I recently picked up from the books store is
"I MODI - The Sixteen Pleasures" by Lynne Lawner (Northwestern
University Press). The sixteen pleasures are a series of sixteen
prints from the sixteenth century Italy deplicting positions of
intercourse, accompanied by a set of sixteen sonnents. I haven't had
a chance to read very much of it yet, but it appears to be a very good
work with historical background and translators notes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Schirmer rschirme at digi.lonestar.org OR digi!rschirme at uunet.uu.net
DSC Communications Corporation Addr: MS 121, 1000 Coit Rd, Plano, TX 75075
From: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Documenting Whoopee! (was Re: Squires and apprentices )
Date: 11 Oct 1993 14:29:03 -0400
Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto
Greetings.....
At last--copious documentation for making whoopee!
I have in front of me James Brundage's fine work _Law,Sex, and
Christian Soceity in Medieval Europe_ (Chicago, 1987). Said work contains
several manuscript illustrations showing "the dirty deed".
Plate 8 illustrates a nifty threesome (a man, his wife,
and a concubine). Plate 13 shows actual copulation (though the couple
have only merely hiked up their clothes--but note the woman's
nifty gartered stockings!) Plate 14 is fun--it shows several matrons
attempting to prove whether a man is impotent (he clearly is!)
Plate 19 is David and Bathsheba in bed.
Of course....this all might be "artistic licence!" ;-)
Cheers!
Nicolaa/susan
sclark at epas.utoronto.ca
From: odlin at reed.edu (Iain Odlin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Documenting Whoopee!
Date: 12 Oct 1993 19:36:47 GMT
Organization: The Stuffed Animal Trauma Team (We're Trained Professionals)
[A couple -- perhaps artistically licensed ;) -- period sources for
documenting sexual activity deleted]
There is also a period book called "I Modi," some pages from which appear
in Lynne Lawner's "Lives of the Courtesans." They depict such interesting
possibilites as "The Frog Position," among others...
-Iain, amused
--
------------------------- Iain Odlin, odlin at reed.edu -------------------------
10 Crosby Street, Level 3, Portland ME 04103
From: ctallan at epas.utoronto.ca (Cheryl Tallan)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Documenting Whoopee!
Date: 12 Oct 1993 13:39:10 -0400
Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto
In article <29c8lf$qu1 at epas.utoronto.ca> sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark) writes:
>Greetings.....
> At last--copious documentation for making whoopee!
>
> I have in front of me James Brundage's fine work _Law,Sex, and
>Christian Soceity in Medieval Europe_ (Chicago, 1987). Said work contains
>several manuscript illustrations showing "the dirty deed".
There is also _The Medieval Health Handbook_ or the _Four Seasons of
the House of Cerruti (sp?)_ both of which have descriptions and
illustrations of something called "coitus" which seems to have a
remarkable resemblance to "sex" <salacious g>
David/Thomas
From: DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Documenting Whoopee!
Date: 13 Oct 1993 03:51:59 GMT
Organization: Cornell Law School
So far nobody in this thread has mentioned either the Sonetti Lussuriosi
(sp?) with the woodcuts that inspired them, or Aretino's Dialogues. Both
are period and explicit.
Then there is the thousand nights and a night.
David/Cariadoc
DDF2 at Cornell.Edu
From: fnklshtn at AXP3.ACF.NYU.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Documenting Whoopee!
Date: 14 Oct 1993 06:20:19 GMT
Organization: New York University, NY, NY
In article <DDF2-121093235157 at cu-dialup-0120.cit.cornell.edu>, DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman) writes:
>So far nobody in this thread has mentioned either the Sonetti Lussuriosi
>Aretino's Dialogues.
>
>Then there is the thousand nights and a night.
>
>David/Cariadoc
Add to that Bocaccio
and
of course...
the Talmud.
Nahum
From: DBROWNE at ucs.INdiana.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Documenting Whoopie!
Date: 19 Oct 1993 09:11:58 -0400
Organization: The Internet
Greetings unto all.
I really hate to sound like an authenticity maven on this,
^^^^^^
but . . . ;-)
One of the commentaries on Pseudo-Albertus Magnus' _De Secretis
Mulierum_ gives directions. The citation for a modern
translation is Helen Rodnite Lemay, _Women's Secrets: A
Translation of Pseudo-Albertus Magnus' De Secritis Mulierum with
Commentaries_. Albany, NY: SUNY Press, 1992. ISBN#0-7914-1144-3
(paperback), pp. 114-5. Pseudo-Albertus dates to the late
thirteenth or early fourteenth centuries. The commentary dates
to between then and 1508.
Just thought I'd inject that into the conversation in passing,
as it were. :-) :-)
Vlad
-----
Ld.Vladyslav de Jaffa Minister of Sciences,Shire of Mynydd Seren
Shire of Mynydd Seren Marshal in Training, Middle Kingdom
Middle Kingdom Journeyman Chirurgeon, Middle Kingdom
DBROWNE at ucs.indiana.edu
From: Phyllis_Gilmore at rand.org (Phyllis Gilmore)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Documenting Whoopie!
Date: 20 Oct 93 19:11:58 GMT
Organization: RAND
In article <9310190909.aa04211 at mc.lcs.mit.edu>, DBROWNE at ucs.INdiana.EDU
wrote:
>
>
> One of the commentaries on Pseudo-Albertus Magnus' _De Secretis
> Mulierum_ gives directions. The citation for a modern
> translation is Helen Rodnite Lemay, _Women's Secrets: A
> Translation of Pseudo-Albertus Magnus' De Secritis Mulierum with
> Commentaries_. Albany, NY: SUNY Press, 1992. ISBN#0-7914-1144-3
> (paperback), pp. 114-5. Pseudo-Albertus dates to the late
> thirteenth or early fourteenth centuries. The commentary dates
> to between then and 1508.
Yes, and other advice. The Ladies may not wish to read some parts of
this unless they have a well-developed sense of humor. (Especially the
parts on how to determine whether a maiden is chaste--giggle. Poor man,
to believe such tales.)
But then I've been known to laugh while reading a 1905 astronomy text.
Philippa
(Whose sense of humor is known to be warped)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: NEW TOPIC: Question on medieval sexuality
From: jrp at accint.com (Jason R. Pascucci)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 19:10:39 GMT
Organization: Access, Inc.
fnklshtn at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU wrote:
: I was studying "Kitzur Shulhan Arukh" (a book of jewish law and advice
: for healthy living).
: At one point the book says "most dangerous to eyesight is excessive
: copulation".
: This got me thinking...
: Today there is a superstition among school children that masturbation will
: cause blindness.
You mean it doesn't (says the man with coke-bottle contacts)?
: Could this superstion be related to the belief in the above book?
: Where there similar beliefs in many medieval medical books?
I believe there are a few other references regarding it
in some Jewish literature I've read, I can look. Regardless,
I would have recognized this as a Catholic superstition
as well, which is the context in which I heard it,
which I can see being period.
I believe some literature spoke of premature aging due to
extensive ejaculation/copulation, which implies eyesight loss.
Some early oriental literature said that the path to long healthy
life is to take the strength from (i.e. cause to orgasm) as many
virgins as possible without yourself coming to orgasm. Also, the
concept of orgasm as a 'little death' I recall as period also.
Alchemical literature suggests a blinding sun/light after
one (the second?) of the conjunctio of the 'Great Work',
which can arguably be a reference.
Hum...that's all I can think of at the moment.
: Peace!
: Nahum
Johann
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann at delphi.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: NEW TOPIC: Question on medieval sexuality
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 94 23:14:17 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info at delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Regarding Nahum and Johann's comments on the medieval belief in the
dangers of excessive sex, let me offer the following from Platina's
_On Honest Indulgence_, which is a 15th century cookbook (derived from
older sources) with many comments on health:
"ON TARRYING WITH A WOMAN
Tarrying with a woman, which Hippocrates, that outstanding figure in
the noble field of medicine, has defined as partly an epileptic spasm,
is not to be greatly longed for, nor totally renounced,
since it makes up the process of procreation by which the species is
preserved. From time to time (as Celsus says) such indulgence is
stimulating to the body, while frequent practice is debilitating.
The term 'frequent' is used here not merely with regard to the number
of times, but with reference to the age and body. Yet this intercourse
is not unprofitable, and it brings a pleasure with no accompanying
weariness or pain. It is not so satisfactory in summer and autumn,
and more suitable in winter and spring, and safer at night than during
the day, if one does not stay up late or work immediately afterward."
[from the English translation published by Falconwood Press]
Such statements by ancient scholars would have carried a lot of weight
in medieval Europe, especially when er... coupled with the Church's
distrust of "The Flesh".
Brighid
(Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom)
From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: NEW TOPIC: Question on medieval sexuality
Date: 4 Feb 1994 04:37:48 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
In article <ARCHER.437.2D510634 at hedgehog.ce.utk.edu>,
>I've yet to be convinced that copulation is a period practice. The only
>documentation I have seen has been indicative of the practice occuring
>occastionally in fringe cultures, but has not conclusively proven that sexual
>congress actually occured between the majority of people in our period.
Well, I don't know about more peripheral cultures [it's a joke, ok?], but
I've been fairly well satisfied as far as Wales goes by the evidence found
in "Canu Maswedd yr Oesoedd Canol: Medieval Welsh Erotic Poetry" by
Dafydd Johnston (ISBN 0-9517181-0-X -- I am _not_ making this up!).
The lyrics are fairly detailed and explicit regarding the physical equipment
and implementation thereof.
Keridwen ferch Morgan Glasfryn
From: fnklshtn at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: NEW TOPIC: Question on medieval sexuality
Date: 8 Feb 1994 04:15:54 GMT
Organization: New York University, NY, NY
In article <mdulcey.760554627 at BIX.com>, mdulcey at BIX.com (mdulcey on BIX) writes:
>ARCHER at hedgehog.ce.utk.edu (T. Archer) writes:
>
>>In article <19940202.23141752.rcmann at delphi.com> Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann at delphi.com> writes:
>>I've yet to be convinced that copulation is a period practice. The only
>>documentation I have seen has been indicative of the practice occuring
>>occastionally in fringe cultures, but has not conclusively proven that sexual
>>congress actually occured between the majority of people in our period.
>
>Well, when you're talking about something that's usually done
>privately like sex, it's hard to document it for certain. Still,
>there are many pieces of evidence that suggest that sex was not
>invented in the twentieth century. Sexual themes were certainly
>popular in the literature and song of the middle ages (read any
>Chaucer?). Not to mention the fact that the human race didn't
>die out :->
Well, I don't know about the rest of the world, but I know that the Jews at
least knew about it.
There are detailed discussions in our legal literature on the subject.
Also, the literature at least claims that Jews copulated -
There is a story about one of our great rabbis (I believe it was Akiba, but I'm
sure Yaakov will corect me if I'm wrong).
It happened when he was a student.
The teacher was at home "getting it on" with his wife, when he noticed
somethingunder the bed.
He investigated and found his student there.
The student explained his reason for being there -
"It is Torah, and I must learn it!"
The teacher kicked him out, promising to explain everything at Yeshiva (without
he visual aids).
I believe this story is from Talmud (finished aprox. 500 CE), it is definitely
fom a pre- 17th century source.
Shalom,
Nahum
From: HAROLD.FELD at hq.doe.GOV
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: On matters of period sexuality
Date: 7 Feb 1994 09:51:04 -0500
Organization: The Internet
Unto all who read these words, greetings from Yaakov.
Nahum, you quoted the Shulchan Aruch. I humbly request a
cite. I am *very* curious to see the original language.
My understanding of the basic difference in philosophy of
JEws and Christians in period is that Christians regarded
sex as evil, a remnant of the fall, whereas JEws did not.
However, in JEwish philosophy, an *excess* of anything
(except fear of God and learning) is bad. (Especially true
in Maimonides philosophy of the Golden Path which humans
should aspire to, where all passions are precisely balanced
so that one does not suffer from any excess.)
As examples of the Jewish philospohy, I cite to Tractate
Ketubot. Amongst its grounds of divorce it lists the
refusal by the husband to satisfy his wife's sexual needs.
(The mishne, taking into account the frailty of human males,
establishes a table based on occupation: Camel drivers and
other heavy laborers need only perform once in 6 months.
Those with lesser duty may be expected to perform on a more
regular basis, and the wife of a cholar can insist on
conjugal relations every day she is permissible.) Further,
if a man swears 'Konam Chaphatzeich Ali' ('the pleasure of
you is forbidden to me') he must divorce his wife.
There is also one of my favorite bawdy aggadic tales: A
group of students were discussing which of them was the most
brazen. One said: 'I saw our Rabbi going to the bath house.
I said to him 'Where do you go?' He said 'To serve God.' I
said 'How is this?' He said 'At dawn, the slaves clean the
statue of the Ceasre. Yet that is only the image of a man.
Should not I, who am made in the image of God, wash myself?'
Then he pressed me saying 'And why are you so impertinent as
to ask?' To which I replied 'Master, it is Torah (the Holy
LAw) and I must learn it.'
'Why,' said the students. 'You are as brazen as the harlots
in the market place!'
'That is nothing,' said another student. 'One Friday night,
I hid in our master's bedchamber. As he and his wife
readied for bed, I was stunned. For his voice, which we
have only heard loudly expounding the law or harshly
rebuking our ignorance. Was made sweat and tender.
Further, he said such words to her as I blushed from my ears
to my ankles. Then when they came to the bed, he spent much
time with her (NB: There is no aramaic word for foreplay,