fried-foods-msg - 2/1/12
Medieval fried foods. Recipes.
NOTE: See also the files: frittours-msg, cooking-oils-msg, flour-msg, chicken-msg, roast-meats-msg, fried-breads-msg, fish-msg.
************************************************************************
NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************
From: zarlor at acm.org (Lenny Zimmermann)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:02:00 GMT
Subject: SC - Re: fried fish and other foods
On 20 Apr 1997 "Stefan li Rous, mka Mark Harris"
<mark_harris at quickmail.sps.mot.com> wrote:
>I'm assuming you are talking about coating the fish in flour or batter
>and frying it in grease or oil. (like British fish and chips?)
>
>So, my question for anyone is, Is such fried food period? I'm wondering
>about other meats too, not just fish. I thought fried chicken was from
>the American South but I'm not sure.
Sorry it has taken me so long to reply to this, I finally finished
wading through the backlog of messages. *WHEW* This is an active list,
but I'm still lovin' it! But I digress...
Fried foods are definitely period, at least in Italy in the 15th
Century. Platina lists more than a few "Fricatellae" recipes that are
all fried dishes. (Almond Fricatellae, especially if seasoned more
than the original recipe and dipped in a sauce, such as a Cameline or
Paltina's "Garlic Sauce with Almonds or Walnuts", are especially good.
And since they are pretty much a period version of Chicken McNuggets,
most people have no problems eating them!) The Apple Fricatellae in
particular is a coated and then fried food. I cannot, however, be
certain about any of the other Fricatellae dishes, as I don't have the
book in front of me and I can't remember off the top of my head if any
meats were coated and fried.
>If so, what was the cooking medium in period? Olive oil? lard? fish oil?
>Did they use breading or just cook it in the oil?
Olive Oil or Lard were the most common oils in Platina used for
frying. Most lard you buy in the store is pretty tasteless, however,
and as such I tend to avoid using it. Unfiltered olive oil, however,
is fantastic. It is a bit cloudier than the filtered stuff you are
used to, but I find it to have a wonderfully fruity flavor that the
filtered oils don't quite seem to match. My conjecture is that this
would be much closer to the traditional olive oils anyways, as I don't
think they would have been filtered in period.
Honos Servio,
Lionardo Acquistapace, Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra
(mka Lenny Zimmermann, San Antonio, TX)
zarlor at acm.org
From: "Jamey R. Lathrop" <jlathrop at unm.edu>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:31:34 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Battered Sage Leaves
On Fri, 20 Jun 1997 denton at microtech.com.au wrote:
> managed to score myself the position of Head Cook of two feasts, both
> within a weeks space of each other. I MUST be going mad! The Steward
> said that he wanted Battered Sage leaves served at one, but I'd never
> heard of them and everyone else answered with a "What's tha then?" does
> any gentle out there know what Battered Sage leaves are and have a recipe
> for them???
> -Sianan
The concept sounded familiar, and I remembered seeing something like that
in _Epulario, Or, The Italian Banquet_ (London, 1598) and managed to
quickly find it. I don't know if this is what your Steward had in mind,
but it sounds interesting.
Allegra
To make fritters of Sage and Bay-leaues.
Take a little fine flower and temper it with Egges, Sugar, Sinamon,
Pepper, and a little Saffron to make it yellow, and take whole sage leaues
and roule them in this composition one by one, and frie them in Butter or
Suet. Do the like with Bayleaues, and in Lent frie them in oyle without
Egges and Suet.
From: "Jamey R. Lathrop" <jlathrop at unm.edu>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:51:00 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Battered Sage Leaves
After posting the sage fritter recipe from _Epulario_ (London, 1598), I
though to go cross-check the Platina version (written in 1475, translated
by Andrews for Mallinckrodt, 1967), since there are often small
differences. Here it is:
FRICTELLA FROM SAGE
Dissolve meal with eggs, sugar, cinnamon, and saffron, and work it. Put
in whole sage leaves, as broad as you want, and when they have been
steeped, fry them in a pan with liquamen or a little oil. This is
nourishing and helps the nerves, although these are slow to be digested
and cause obstructions.
So, there are a few differences, plus the very interesting medical
commentary.
Allegra
From: "Kathleen A. Moore" <KAMOOR01 at ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 97 13:49:50 EDT
Subject: SC - SC: Fried "Mice" (sage leaves)
My Barony's cooks' group occasionally goes fritter-crazy, frying just
about anything that'll hold the batter. We found a "traditional" recipe
for whole sage leaves that was too weird not to try, especially when we
ran across almost the exact recipe in *Epulario*.
The modern source said to leave as much stem as possible on the sage leaves,
both as a "handle" for dipping into the batter then the oil, and also to
resemble a tail; this is because of the way that the batter puffs up during
the frying, yielding a truely light brown, mouse-shaped fritter! Pretty
tasty, too, altho some felt the sage was kinda strong; our solution was to
make the batter slightly sweeter, and/or use a flavored ale or beer as the
liquid in the batter.
- --Mist. Cordelia, Baroness Flame, Midrealm
THANKS--Kathy
kamoor01 at ulkyvm.louisville.edu
Bridwell Art Library, 102 Schneider Hall, Belknap Campus
University of Louisville, Louisville, KY 40292
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:34:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SC - Battered sage leaves
The Steward
>said that he wanted Battered Sage leaves served at one, but I'd never
>heard of them and everyone else answered with a "What's tha then?" does
>any gentle out there know what Battered Sage leaves are and have a recipe
>for them???
I wonder if this could be an adaptation of the Frytour of Erbes recipe out
of Form of Cury (Curye on Inglysch p. 132), although the herbs are ground
in this.
"Take gode erbys; grynde hem and medle hem with flour and water, & a lytel
yest, and salt, and frye hem in oyle. And ete hem with clere hony."
We have a worked-up version in the Miscellany with sage, parsley, oregano,
and thyme, but I have thought of trying a version on the assumption that
"herbs" means "greens" in this context.
Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:11:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gretchen M Beck <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Re- sca-cooks fish-lon
Excerpts from internet.listserv.sca-cooks: 27-Jul-97 SC - Re- sca-cooks
fish-lon by "Mark Harris" at quickmail.
> Is there any evidence of beer being
> used in the batter of any medieval dishes? I know this is a British
> traditional food, but I don't know if it is medieval.
Yup. Fritters recipes. They tend to run "Mix flour with <liquid> and
maybe some other things". Liquid may be wine, or ale, or water, or
eggs, or whatever.
Here's one from the 2 15th C Cookery Books:
Frutours. Take yolkes of egges, drawe hem thorgh a streynour, caste
there-to faire floure, berme and ale; stere it todidre til hit be thik.
Take pared appeles, cut hem thyn like obleies, ley hem in the batur,
then put hem into a ffrying pan, and fry hem in faire grece or buttur
til thei ben browne yelowe; then put hem in disshes, and strawe Sugar on
hem ynogh, And serve hem forthe.
toodles, margaret
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:11:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gretchen M Beck <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Re- sca-cooks fish-lon
Excerpts from internet.listserv.sca-cooks: 27-Jul-97 SC - Re- sca-cooks
fish-lon by "Mark Harris" at quickmail.
> Is there any evidence of beer being
> used in the batter of any medieval dishes? I know this is a British
> traditional
> food, but I don't know if it is medieval.
Yup. Fritters recipes. They tend to run "Mix flour with <liquid> and
maybe some other things". Liquid may be wine, or ale, or water, or
eggs, or whatever.
Here's one from the 2 15th C Cookery Books:
Frutours. Take yolkes of egges, drawe hem thorgh a streynour, caste
there-to faire floure, berme and ale; stere it todidre til hit be thik.
Take pared appeles, cut hem thyn like obleies, ley hem in the batur,
then put hem into a ffrying pan, and fry hem in faire grece or buttur
til thei ben browne yelowe; then put hem in disshes, and strawe Sugar on
hem ynogh, And serve hem forthe.
toodles, margaret
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:14:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: SC - deep frying
What does the deep frying do that frying in s shallower pot doesn't?
It immerses the entire item in a high temperature fluid. In ordinary
sauting, or whatever, only a small percentage of the item is exposed to that
high heat.
This seems awfully wasteful of oil, especially if you are only cooking
a few items. Someone mentioned that you could filter the oil for reuse?
How do you do that? Drain it through a colander lined with paper towels?
What then, is this oil only good for future deep frying or can it be
used for other things?
It does get flavored, and it will (after a time) decompose the fats in the
oil, making it darker and less flavorful, and less capable of holding
precise temperatures.
Was deep frying period? It seems expensive in oil, but I guess in some
areas olive oil was common.
I dimly recall Master Cariadoc telling a story from Al-Andalus about how a
woman was given with a dowery of two gigantic containers of oil. She made
her husband a wonderful eggplant dish with it as their first meal together,
and he demanded it every night. By the fourth night, the dowery was gone.
I don't know what this reveals, besides greasy eggplant, but I suspect that
it reveals frying was used.
Tibor
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:37:11 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - deep frying
Mark Harris wrote:
> What does the deep frying do that frying in s shallower pot doesn't?
Mostly it browns the food more evenly, without those coffee-brown parts
from where the food came too close to the bottom of the pan.
> This seems awfully wasteful of oil, especially if you are only cooking
> a few items. Someone mentioned that you could filter the oil for reuse?
> How do you do that? Drain it through a colander lined with paper towels?
> What then, is this oil only good for future deep frying or can it be
> used for other things?
I suppose it is less of an issue when you're doing a lot of deep-frying.
People generally use pretty neutral vegetable oil (McDonalds used suet
until about ten years ago...) which is also pretty inexpensive, and
becomes still less expensive when you re-use it for that purpose. I
guess it could be used for other things, but oil does pick up the
flavors of foods it was used to fry. Also, if too high a temperature is
used for frying, it does begin to break down, i.e. become rancid, which
means it is less useful for other things. But, if you have a deep fryer
or a pot of oil going, and need a quick splash of oil for your saute
pan, there's no harm in going in with a spoon.
> Was deep frying period? It seems expensive in oil, but I guess in some
> areas olive oil was common.
Also white grease (presumably lard and/or suet), and various other
vegetable oils (like rapeseed [variant on turnip plant] and grapeseed
oil) were other possibilities.
Adamantius
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:47:53 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - deep frying
>What does the deep frying do that frying in s shallower pot doesn't?
Think of it as boiling in oil. Immersion in oil heated to the proper
temperature, immediately surface cooks the immersed food and reduces the
absorbtion of fat in the cooking. This is extremely valuable when doing
anything batter dipped.
Cooking at high enough temperature is the difference between crisp and
slimy french fries.
>This seems awfully wasteful of oil, especially if you are only cooking
>a few items. Someone mentioned that you could filter the oil for reuse?
>How do you do that? Drain it through a colander lined with paper towels?
>What then, is this oil only good for future deep frying or can it be
>used for other things?
The oil is retained and reused. The heating process keeps it relatively
sterile. Large particles are strained out before storage. The oil
should be stored in a sealed container in a cool location to keep it
from becoming rancid. The retained oil should be used only for deep
frying.
>Was deep frying period? It seems expensive in oil, but I guess in some
>areas olive oil was common.
>Stefan li Rous
>mark at risc.sps.mot.com
I have no references to deep fat frying being period, but it may have
been. Oil in this context refers to any vegetable or animal fat which
can be made liquid.
Bear
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 19:24:36 GMT
From: zarlor at acm.org (Lenny Zimmermann)
Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #288
On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Ld. Stefan li Rous wrote:
>This seems awfully wasteful of oil, especially if you are only cooking
>a few items. Someone mentioned that you could filter the oil for reuse?
>How do you do that? Drain it through a colander lined with paper towels?
>What then, is this oil only good for future deep frying or can it be
>used for other things?
Yes, that is how to filter it, and yes it can be used again. Methods
for storage and warnings about flavoring of the oil have also been
addressed already, so me thinks I'll skip a bit more...
>Was deep frying period? It seems expensive in oil, but I guess in some
>areas olive oil was common.
Well, here we run into a bit of a Crux. Going back to Platina (1475,
Venice, Italy) we have quite a few Fricatella recipes, which all call
for a frying of the food in question. Considering the amount, it is
FAR easier to cook such foods in a deeper pot than it would be to,
effectively, saute them in a shallower pan for frying. Lard or oil
could be used for the frying and both were fairly easily obtained in
Italy at the time. But I cannot recall Platina specifically mentioning
in which way he would have expected these things to be fried.
I would have to say that my experience with frying foods would lend me
to believe that deep fat frying would certainly have been the way it
was done. While pan frying can almost as easily be done, and I don't
doubt it was done on occasion should the need for a smaller or quickly
cooked portion arise, I would tend to go with deep frying as the
method of choice. But I could be wrong and just letting my deep fat
fried Southern roots show. ;-)
Honos Servio,
Lionardo Acquistapace, Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra
(mka Lenny Zimmermann, San Antonio, TX)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:11:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Uduido at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - deep frying
<< Was deep frying period? It seems expensive in oil, but I guess in some
areas olive oil was common.
>>
Frying was definately period. Whether deep-fat frying or other frying is
totally up to the nature of the recipe. And they woulod NOT have used olive
oil for this purpose. The best fat for frying (deep or not) was and is
without a doubt lard and this is what I always use when frying is called for
in a period recipe unless some other fat is specifically mentioned for this
purpose.
Lord Ras
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:03:32 -0400
From: marilyn traber <margali at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: SC - deep frying
Mark Harris wrote:
> What does the deep frying do that frying in s shallower pot doesn't?
>
> This seems awfully wasteful of oil, especially if you are only cooking
> a few items. Someone mentioned that you could filter the oil for reuse?
> How do you do that? Drain it through a colander lined with paper towels?
> What then, is this oil only good for future deep frying or can it be
> used for other things?
>
> Was deep frying period? It seems expensive in oil, but I guess in some
> areas olive oil was common.
In my fry well, I can do about a dozen beignets at once[fried dough
squares] and they sort of start on the bottom, and when they float free,
I know to turn them over to finish the other side, and as they floa up
they puff out to a cube. If I were to try to fry them in less than an
inch, they wouldnt cook as evenly, and I wouldnt be able to cook as many
at once, If I were to try to cook a doze, then I would need to use my
#16 skillet, and to do an inch and an half of oil in thet would take
more oil than my well.
I filter the oil through a double layer of kitchen gauze and store it in
a glass milk bottle in the fridge, and I have a few of different levels
of oil, the newest stuff that I have used up to 4 times for fried dough,
fruits and vegetables, then the next rung down where I use it for beef
or chicken no more than twice, then the last use is or fish or seafood,
then it goes into the cess for disposal. I use wel-fry, a commercial
veggieoil blend that is liquid at low temp, and I find it doesn't easily
hit a smoke point or go rancid easily. The oil takes about a month to go
from virgin to waste, depending on how often we fry.
I find that in camp, it is less wasteful to deep fry in a covered dutch
oven than it is to pan fry in the monster #16 skillet, the lid serving
to hold in the heat, I don't know how period it is, but fritters were
common...
margali
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:42:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Uduido at aol.com
Subject: Re: Re- SC - deep frying
<< So how would you know looking at the period recipe? Are there particular
foods you would fry and others you would deep fry? Why?>>
The first step in determining whether to pan fry or deep fry an item is to
determine if the recipe actually calls for this type of treatment. For
instance, if it contains a word such as 'y-fryit' this would be a good
indication that either pan frying or deep frying would be indicated. :-)
The next step is to take a good look at the main item to be fried. Chunks
(e.g. 'gobbits) would most certainly be browned on all sides; and, if further
instructions such as add broth or boiling are indicated pan frying (e.g.
browning) would be a first choice.
If the cuts of food are not chunks but rather slices or lozenges, try to
determine from the recipe if these cuts are dipped in batter or breaded or if
the food is an integral part of a mixture (e.g. frittours; scotch eggs) which
calls for frying. If this is the case, then, IMO, deep frying would be
indicated.
Assuming the recipe specifically indicates frying as the cooking method,
certain foods such as seafood, fruits and filled dough produce a much better
finished dish when deep-fried. While veal, steaks and vegetables (e.g.
cabbage) produce better dishes when fried. Others like uncooked shelled eggs
are for the most part difficult if not impossible to deep fry.
<<Why would olive oil not be used? Is it a matter of cost? Or is there
some characteristic of lard which makes it better for this, such as
heating to a higher temperature? >>
Although olive oil is a wonderful medium for pan frying, the over-all price
of olive oil has remained constant throughout the centuries when compared to
income. Although I have no research that would have precluded it's use as a
deep frying medium, from the stand point of practicallity and the miriad uses
to which it can be put, IMO, it was used for salads, as a bread dip, etc. in
lieu of it's use as a major cooking oil (e.g. deep frying). The negative side
of Olive oil is a low smoking point and it's use in deep frying, indeed in
all forms of cookery, imparts a somewhat strong and distinctive flavor unlike
other fats. On the plus side, the smoke it produces is not irritating.
The use of lard throughout Medieval Europe in both food preservation and
cookery was extensive according to extant recipe books, household accounts,
etc. Historically, this use continued right up until the last generation or
two of modern times. Positive points are that it produces delectably
flavorful pastry doughs and, although it has a relatively low smoking
temperature, in my experience, it produces a very tasty, golden brown product
when used for deep frying that is unsurpassed by any other medium. On the
negative side, the smoke it produces is irritating.
I am sure that I have left something out here, but I leave it up to more
knowledgeble minds than mine to fill in the gaps.
Lord Ras
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:58:37 -0400
From: Erica Rodgers <the1edr at atlas.vcu.edu>
Subject: Re: Re- SC - deep frying
> The negative side of Olive oil is a low smoking point...
><<<<
>
>What exactly is the smoking point? I assume this is the temperature
>when the oil will begin to burn on it's own. Correct? Then when would
>you want to use an oil with a low smoking point vs. one with a higher
>smoking point? Or is this more of a side concern and what you usually
>use to determine use is something like cost or taste?
SMOKE POINT The stage at which heated fat begins to emit smoke and acrid
odors, and impart an unpleasant flavor to foods. The higher the smoke
point, the better suited a fat is for frying. Because both reusing fat and
exposing it to air reduces its smoke point, it should be discarded after
being used three times. Though processing affects an individual fat's smoke
point slightly, the ranges for some of the more common fats are: butter
(350∞F); lard (361∞ to 401∞F); vegetable shortenings (356∞ to 370∞F);
vegetable oils (441∞ to 450∞F) ≠corn, grapeseed, peanut and safflower oils
all have high smoke points, while that of olive oil is relatively low
(about 375∞F).
Source: The Food Lover's Companion. (Granted not period, but the definition
still applies)
Basically, if you are flash frying or deep frying or anything that needs to
be very hot, very quickly, you want something with a very high smoking
point, such as grapeseed oil. Olive oil should not be used above medium heat.
Hope this is of help.. or atleast of interest...
Erica.
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:20:04 -0400
From: marilyn traber <margali at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: Re- SC - deep frying
> What exactly is the smoking point? I assume this is the temperature
> when the oil will begin to burn on it's own. Correct? Then when would
> you want to use an oil with a low smoking point vs. one with a higher
> smoking point? Or is this more of a side concern and what you usually
> use to determine use is something like cost or taste?
>
> Stefan li Rous
the point at which the fuming starts, not the flash point. You want an
oil with a higher smoke point as frying at lower temps doesnt get the
outside sealed off soon enough and you get oily soggy goodies-remember
the old crisco adds with Florence Henderson? I buy welfry, a commercial
product that works out cheaper than crisco, but you need either a
wholesale 'club' near you or a good deal with a commercial rest. supply
place.
margali
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 19:14:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: Re- SC - deep frying
<< What exactly is the smoking point?>>
The smoking point of oil or fat is the point at which it produces noticible
smoke from it's surface.
<< I assume this is the temperature when the oil will begin to burn on it's
own. Correct? >>
Correct.-)
<<Then when would you want to use an oil with a low smoking point vs. one
with a higher smoking point? >>
Ideally, you would want to use a deep-frying medium that had a HIGH smoking
point (e.g. peanut oil).. However, the choice of high smoking point fats was
extremely limited (if not non-existent) during the Middle Ages.
<<Or is this more of a side concern and what you usually use to determine use
is something like cost or taste? >>
This is of course a subjective obsevation. Personally, I use lard if I am
cooking for crowds or special friends because the flavor imparted by this
particular fat is unequaled by any other available choice. If I am pinching
pennies, the necessary criteria is based on economics of course.
Since the price of lard is increasing, I often times ask my butcher for any
pig-fat he can spare. This is usually provided freely because beef-fat is
used more often in groudmeat mixtures. I then render my own lard.
I hope this answers your questions.
Lord Ras
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 22:18:30 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: Let them eat fish! was Re: SC - Can medieval food beheart-smart?
LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
> ChannonM at aol.com writes:
> << What do you think about a beer based batter for cod? >>
>
> I think it's great but I am unaware of any references to beer batter outside
> of the current century.
>
> Ras
At least not for fish. There are, I believe, fritter batters made with
ale in period sources. Most fish appears from the recipes to have been
fried uncoated, although a recipe in le Viandier says to fry (cuttlefish
or squid? I forget) without any coating of flour, which suggests it was
sometimes done.
If you really want to be technical, fresh cod seems like a fairly
unlikely choice, because most cod would have been caught in waters
pretty far from the European mainland. Not all, but most. Much of the
cod referred to in period sources would seem to be either salt or air-dried.
On the other hand, it's (relatively) cheap, firm, white, and not too
bony, so a fairly good choice for food nerds to have a go at if you're
trying to get the piscophagially (is that a word?) challenged to eat
something different.
Adamantius
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 00:03:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nisha Martin <nishamartin at yahoo.com>
Subject: SC - Refrying fritters
>I don't do a lot of deep-fat frying, so I'm not sure
>how to adjust my oil temp. to allow for a slightly longer
>cooking time
What my mom would do to test the oil for frying hush
puppies was use a cube of bread about the size of the
hush puppies she wanted to make. It takes about the
same amonunt of time to brown a cube of bread as it
does a small fritter (or hush puppies)It's a pretty
good guide line. It needs to bubble immediately, or
your fritters will be greasy. If the temp is too low
they get really grease soaked and heavy. Another
thing, use peanut oil for frying if using a vegetable
oil. Stuff doesn't burn as fast because it has a
higher smoke/burn temp. I hate deep frying unless I
have a fryer. (I've worked food service before) Its
such a mess to clean up. I love to cook, but boy do I
hate to clean. HEHE Isn't that most of us? Those are
my suggestions. Good luck.
Nisha
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 08:44:34 EDT
From: ChannonM at aol.com
Subject: SC - Re: Refrying fritters
> If the temp is too low
> they get really grease soaked and heavy. Another
> thing, use peanut oil for frying if using a vegetable
> oil. Stuff doesn't burn as fast because it has a
> higher smoke/burn temp.
If you are trying to maintain a period dish, using canola oil would be a
better substitute. Canola is known in period as rape seed oil (or the
vegetable rape), hence the name change to a more PC term. The etymology has
something to do with the latin I believe (notes are not at hand).
Hauviette
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 21:26:15 -0500
From: harper at idt.net
Subject: Re: SC - Period fried foody
And it came to pass on 3 Dec 00, , that Jenne Heise wrote:
> Well, we do know that they WERE used for frying. The question is, were
> they used for deep frying?
The last time this topic came up on the list, I post a recipe from
Nola for deep-fried cheese fritters. The recipe clearly says to fill a
casserole with enough pork grease or oil that the fritters are floating
in the fat. This is an unusual recipe, however, and most of the
other fritter recipes seems to be shallow-fried in a frying-pan.
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:53:22 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - period fried foods
Stefan li Rous wrote:
> Thomas replied to my request for period frog recipes with several German
> ones and included this:
>
> > Platina from IX.41 (tr. Milham)
> > "[...] We let the legs of those which are captured be stripped of skin
> > and soaked a night or a day in fresh water. Then when they have been
> > rolled in meal, we fry them in oil. When they are fried and put in a
> > dish, my friend Palellus covers them with green sauce and sprinkles them
> > with fennel flowers and spices".
>
> Unless I'm mistaken, I thought most of the period recipes we had for
> fried foods just fried them in oil, without coating them with a breading
> first. But this one does use a breading.
>
> Am I mis-remembering?
This is one of very few references to flouring before frying that we
have, I believe. The other that I can think of, is in Taillevent, I
think, when he says to fry squid or cuttlefish (IIRC) without first
coating it in flour. The implication seems to have been that it was done
commonly, and in this case he didn't think it should be done. Certainly
if you go by English recipes only, you can easily get the impression
that floured, fried foods did not exist in period.
Adamantius
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:50:20 +0200
From: "Jessica Tiffin" <jessica at beattie.uct.ac.za>
Subject: Re: SC - period fried foods
Adamantius commented:
> This is one of very few references to flouring before frying that we
> have, I believe. The other that I can think of, is in Taillevent, I
> think, when he says to fry squid or cuttlefish (IIRC) without first
> coating it in flour. The implication seems to have been that it was done
> commonly, and in this case he didn't think it should be done. Certainly
> if you go by English recipes only, you can easily get the impression
> that floured, fried foods did not exist in period.
There's a mushroom recipe in Rumpolt which requires you to flour
mushrooms and fry them, and another similar one for apples. Recipes
beneath, courtesy of Gwen Catrin von Berlin
(http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_Rumpolt1.htm). I am very enamoured
of these German recipes, just cooked a Yule feast from Rumpolt and
Sabrina Welserin - lovely selection of dishes, lovely recipes.
19. Take PELTZSCHWAMMEN <<Sorry, no clue.. some sort of fungi I think,
but cant tell which kind>> / cut them nicely longwise/ not thickly/
wash them nicely clean. Take farina and flour together/ salt and
pepper it/ sprinkle the mushroom well therewith/ and toss them into
hot butter/ and let them bake (fry) slowly/ sprinkle them with pepper/
and give it warm to the table/ so it is a baked (fried) mushroom.
Take apples/ and cut them into quarters and sprinkle them
with flour/ and throw them into hot butter and bake (fry) them/
sprinkle them with sugar/ and serve warm to the table, so one calls
geschwembte apples. (Marx Rumpolt)
Lady Jehanne de Huguenin * Seneschal, Shire of Adamastor, Cape Town
(Jessica Tiffin, University of Cape Town)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 14:04:07 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Frying was Siege Cooking Competition
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Pretty much what I had decided. And not much like pancakes, I think.
> It might be stretching it to use these recipes for 10th c., but I
> think I will make fritters for our feast this weekend. What early
> evidence do we have for frying?
>
> Ranvaig
Fry derives from the Middle English "frien" from the Old French "frire" from
the Latin "frigere," so the word predates the 10th Century.
Leviticus distinguishes between bread baked in an oven and cooked on a
griddle.
Terracotta frying pans (teganon) have been recovered from the Athenian
agora, but they may not have been used for frying in oil.
Apicius refers to fried foods and (IIRC) they have recovered metal frying
pans from Pompeii (79 CE). Pliny contains a prescription for eggs steeped
in vinegar and fried in oil.
I think it's a safe bet that foods were fried in the Middle Ages.
Bear
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:21:03 -0800
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] "A fry of whatever meat you like"
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Cadoc mentioned:
>> Platina's "A fry of whatever meat you like" using turkey, or Armored
>> turnips made with sunchokes instead of turnips.
>
> So, does anyone have the recipe and/or redaction for this "A fry of
> whatever meat you like"? Does Platina suggest an oil (or lard?) for
> this to be cooked in? Somehow I don't think he was talking about a
> whole turkey, though...
It is in the Miscellany under the name "Fricassee of Whatever Meat
You Wish"--meat cut up, pan-fried in lard, egg, vinegar, seasoning to
make a sauce.
Elizabeth/Betty Cook
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 18:06:30 -0800
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] "A fry of whatever meat you like"
To: Bill Fisher <liamfisher at gmail.com>, Cooks within the SCA
<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
I wrote:
>> It is in the Miscellany under the name "Fricassee of Whatever Meat
>> You Wish"--meat cut up, pan-fried in lard, egg, vinegar, seasoning to
>> make a sauce.
and Cadoc responded:
> Yeah, that's pretty much it. You can use oil too. Or at least I do
> when cooking for large groups. I have a number of Jewish friends.
>
> Which Platina version did you folks pull your redactions from?
We have worked from the old translation:
Platina, De Honesta Voluptate, Venice, L. De Aguila, 1475. Translated
by E. B. Andrews, Mallinkrodt 1967. (Both Platina and Kenelm Digby
were published as part of the "Mallinkrodt Collection of Food
Classics.") Reprinted by Falconwood Press, 1989.
We have Milham's translation but haven't done much with it yet.
Elizabeth/Betty Cook
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:55:43 -0500
From: Stephen Bloch <sbloch at adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] period doughnuts
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> has anyone come across any references to dougnuts in period?
> leavened or unleavened ok.
Will filled doughnuts do?
There's a recipe in the 13th-century Arabo-Andalusian "manuscrito
anonimo" that's basically a yeast-raised, eggy dough wrapped into
balls around a spoonful of filling (chopped nuts and honey) and then
deep-fried. Serve them sprinkled with cinnamon and lavender (!)
I've made these a few times, and they turned out well (although I
think I've baked them more often than I've deep-fried them).
--
Jhn Elys
(the artist formerly known as mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:55:40 -0600
From: Robert Downie <rdownie at mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Batter frying--the origin of fish and chips?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
David Friedman wrote:
> I recently got into an exchange on a newsgroup, growing in part out of
> a webbed piece about the origin of fish and chips. That got me curious
> about how early the technique used for the fish--dip in batter and
> deep fry--appears. Can anyone think of examples, for fish or even for
> other things, in the period corpus? The closest that occurred to me
> was fritters--but it isn't clear to me if they were deep fried, and I
> don't think any of them were fish.
>
> The webbed piece was:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3380151.stm
The 15th C. Portuguese cookbook, Livro de Cozinha da Infanta D. Maria
has a recipe for dipping food in egg and then deep frying it (not quite
a batter as such, but similar concept...). The Galinha Albardada recipe
calls for dipping chicken pieces and bread slices in egg before frying
them in butter. "Albardar" is still a comonly used culinary term today
in Portuguese kitchens.
Faerisa
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:38:31 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Batter frying--the origin of fish and chips?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
There's a paper in the Oxford Symposium on Fish
on Fish and Chips and their development. Nothing therein
mentions Jewish traditions for the fish frying.
Wilson mentions the fried fish in her fish chapter in Food and Drink in Britain
and cites PNB or A Proper Newe Book of Cookery.
The online edition of that which is the Frere version which would be 1557-58
http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~gloning/bookecok.htm
Soles or any other fyshes fryed.
appears in the second course of a fish day menu.
The recipe for A Pyke sauce for a Pyke, Breme, Perche, Roche, Carpe,
Eles, Floykes and almaner of brouke fyshe.
ends with
And also yf you wyll
frye them, you muste take a good quantitie of
persely, after the fyshe is fryed, put in the
persely into the fryinge panne, and let it frye
in the butter and take it up and put it on the
fryed fyshe, and frye place, whyttinge and
suche other fyshe, excepte Eles, freshe Salmon,
Conger, which be never fryed but baken, boyled,
roosted or sodden.
But this seems to indicate pan frying in butter, not deep frying.
Johnnae
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:02:26 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Batter frying--the origin of fish and chips?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Quickly checking Davidson's entry on Fish and Chips
in the Oxford Companion, he mentions that Claudia Roden
in 1996 (The Book of Jewish Food) ties the Jewish
tradition of frying fish in batter and eating them cold as
a possible source. I suppose Roden is the next place to look.
It would have been a logical place for Professor Panikos Panayi of
Leicester's De Montfort University as mentioned in the article to have looked.
Johnnae
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:19:35 -0400
From: "Elaine Koogler" <kiridono at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Almond milk dregs
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
The other possibility is that you can oven-fry them. Use jelly-roll pans
(cookie sheets with a lip), heat them in the oven (350 - 400 or so). Pour a
thin coat of oil (I use canola) on the sheets and heat them again. Pull
them out of the oven and spoon your fritter mixture on the pan. Slide back
into the oven and fry until golden. This technique has worked very well for
me...I've done fritters as well as frying the stuffed eggs from
Platina/Epulario this way.
Kiri
On 9/14/07, Britt <tierna.britt at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I was hoping for something to serve at feast. This sounds really
>> good, but a fried dish for 100 is probably not a good idea.
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 21:53:04 -0400
From: "Barbara Benson" <voxeight at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] English Food
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
<<< Then again, I once served a whole deep fried onion with a
Garlic/Walnut sauce that went over very well. >>>
Stefan> Oh? Any evidence for deep fried onions of any style being
period? I wonder how that sauce would work with fried mushrooms.
--------
Actually the recipe to which I refer is in your very own florithingie:
PARA HAZER CEBOLLAS ENTERAS EN CAZUELA EN DIA DE QUARESMA
To Make Whole Onions in Casserole on a Lenten Day
Source: _Libro del Arte de Cozina_, 1599
Translation: Brighid ni Chiarain (Robin Carroll-Mann)
Take the white onions, and sweet ones, and the bigger they are, the
better, and make them cook in water and salt, in such a manner that
they are well cooked, and take them out and let them cool and drain,
and puncture them with the knife, so that the water will come out
better, and being drained moisten them with a bit of cold water, and
flour them, and put them in a tart pan with enough hot olive oil that
they will be more than half covered, and give them fire below and
above, turning them several times, and being cooked serve them with
oil and cinnamon on top. You can also cover with garlic sauce and
green sauce.
I also played around with a Fried Onion (allium, same family) variant
from The Anon Tuscan Cookbook translated by Vittoria Aureli. It didn't
make it into the feast for logistical reasons - but it was darn tasty:
[28] Another preparation. Take whole leeks, well washed, and cut them
in four pieces, and boil them a little; then take them out, and put
them on a board to drain; then take flour, and dilute it with a little
hot water, and stir it in a bowl thoroughly with a mixing spoon, and
put salt in it. Then take these leeks piece by piece, and coat them in
this batter; and then fry them in a lot of oil.
Those are the only two I can come up with off the top of my head - I
would be willing to wager digging might yield a couple more!
--
Serena da Riva
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 20:03:47 -0400
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcarrollmann at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fried onions and such
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
On 7/5/08, Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com> wrote:
<<< PARA HAZER CEBOLLAS ENTERAS EN CAZUELA EN DIA DE QUARESMA
To Make Whole Onions in Casserole on a Lenten Day
Source: _Libro del Arte de Cozina_, 1599
Translation: Brighid ni Chiarain (Robin Carroll-Mann)
[snip]
and being cooked serve them with
oil and cinnamon on top. You can also cover with garlic sauce and
green sauce. >>>
Is this referring to two sauces, a green sauce and a separate garlic
sauce? Or a garlic and green sauce? Brighid, is this your translation?
This is a recipe that I translated. It is not from de Nola. It is
from Diego Granado (Spanish, 1599), and may well be one of the
hundreds of recipes he pinched from Scappi. In any case, it is very
late period Mediterranean. I should have included the author in the
citation (bad librarian! No bizcocho!), since the title -- like so
many others of the era -- simply means "book of cooking".
The wording would indicate two separate sauces.
--
Brighid ni Chiarain
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 09:26:53 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Silly Siense Season...
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Over the weekend, in connection with the previous thread on pulled
sugar, I was looking at BL MS Add. 32085, which is "MS A" in Constance
Hieatt's Speculum article entitled, "Two Anglo-Norman Culinary
Collections," based on manuscripts originally dating from the late
thirteenth century (I think).
In it, there's a recipe for luce (which is a pike-like fish) in soup.
The fish is parboiled and then fried, finished in a sauce, and poured
into a serving dish which may or may not contain some sort of sops or
toasts (hence the "soup", as opposed to simply "pottage"). One
instruction caught my eye, in connection with various discussions
we've had here over the years as to exactly how fish was fried in
period -- pan-fried, deep-fried, floured or not, etc.
Taillevent, for example, says cuttlefish is fried in an iron pan
without flour, which suggests that some people fried some fish with
flour. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot else out there in the way
of specifics on the process.
So, in the middle of the twelfth recipe in this MS Add. 32085, is the
following:
"e tut manere de pessons, ke bon seit in ceste manere, com ci orrez
coment, serrunt fris saunz gresse: pernez le moel de l'oef ou deus, e
oingnez la paele dekes autant ke ele face semblaunt de sure; e ke la
paele seit bien su? de un drap, e ke la paele seit bien gardee ke ele
ne seit trop chaude ne trop freide, e metez un poi de sel, ou de
sucre; si cum vos metez chescun apr?s autre desus un plater, ke nul ne
apruce autre"
Hieatt's translation of this passage is:
"and all kinds of fish, for best results, should be fried without
grease in the manner here described; take an egg yolk or two and rub
the (hot) pan until it appears to sweat; the pan should be quite black
and wiped thoroughly with a cloth, and it should be carefully watched
lest it become too hot or too cold; sprinkle a little salt or sugar on
(the surface of) the pan; [fry the fishes] as you would serve them on
a plate, putting in one after the other without letting them each other"
In Hieatt's notes on this recipe, she says, among other things, that
"It is not the egg yolk which gives the appearance of 'sweating,' but
the cholesterol left behind when the coating of yolk is wiped from the
pan with a cloth."
I just thought that was really cool. Doesn't it look a lot like
instructions for seasoning an iron pan and pan-broiling a steak
without any fat?
Adamantius (as previously noted, easily amused)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:04:13 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Silly Siense Season...
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
On Jul 29, 2008, at 10:23 AM, Susan Fox wrote:
Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote:
<<< "and all kinds of fish, for best results, should be fried without
grease in the manner here described; take an egg yolk or two and
rub the (hot) pan until it appears to sweat; the pan should be
quite black and wiped thoroughly with a cloth, and it should be
carefully watched lest it become too hot or too cold; sprinkle a
little salt or sugar on (the surface of) the pan; [fry the fishes]
as you would serve them on a plate, putting in one after the other
without letting them each other"
In Hieatt's notes on this recipe, she says, among other things,
that "It is not the egg yolk which gives the appearance of
'sweating,' but the cholesterol left behind when the coating of
yolk is wiped from the pan with a cloth."
I just thought that was really cool. Doesn't it look a lot like
instructions for seasoning an iron pan and pan-broiling a steak
without any fat?
Adamantius (as previously noted, easily amused) >>>
That is really interesting. I did not know you could do that with
eggs. Raw egg yolks? I'll have to try this.
I cleaned out my storage unit yesterday and found All My Cast Iron
Cookware. Amongst other stuff. Lord help us. I'll figure out where
to put it all Very Soon Now. But it may be time for a session of
Calafia Dutch Oven Cookery Gang at a remote location, viz. Altavia
[call it, three baronies away in SCA terms].
==============
If I had to speculate (and of course, Laurels never do that ;-) ),
I'd say to warm the pan without actually cooking the yolks to any
great extent, which should enable them to actually be removed with a
cloth and not too much elbow grease. I'd also think about (with no
particular conclusion in mind, of course) whether something like free-
range eggs might make a difference in re fat content in the yolks.
I also wonder whether this is some interpretation of fish-day or
Lenten dietary rules; I've always had a tenuous grasp on those since
they rarely seem to me to have any consistency. But I believe the same
recipe calls for onions fried in grease, so perhaps this is a fried
(or pan-broiled) red herring...
Adamantius
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:45:07 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Egg yolk was Silly Siense Season...
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Actually I think Harold McGee's On Food and Cooking (2004) explains this.
Under "Eggs as Emulsifiers
As we've already seen, cooks can use egg yolks to thicken all kinds of
hot sauces. The yolk proteins unfold and bond to each other when heated, so form a liquid-immobilizing network (p.604). Egg yolks are also very effective
emulsifiers, and for a simple reason: they themselves are a concentrated and complex emulsion of fat in water, and therefore filled with emulsifying molecule
aggregates." pp632-633.
He then on page 633 goes into yolks containing LDL's or low-density
lipoproteins, which in turn are made up of "emulsifying proteins, phospholipids, and cholesterol, all surrounding a core of fat molecules." Also the larger egg yolk granules also contain both LDL's and HDL's.
Yolks emulsify best when warm, so maybe a room temp would work best.
Johnnae
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 13:22:39 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Egg yolk was Silly Siense Season...
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Hieatt's comments on this being a cholesterol-based phenomenon seem a
little oversimplified to me, but it could be involved, and then
there's the fact that egg yolks are full of lecithin, which is not
only an emulsifier but also was, as I recall, the primary ingredient
of the original nonfat cooking sprays.
I'm thinking the pan would need to be warm, to expand and open pores
in the iron, but not so hot the yolks immediately weld to the surface
and char.
Adamantius
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 07:33:07 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] butter fried shrimp
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Taillevent, in the last quarter of the fourteenth century, refers to
[I think cuttlefish] being fried in a dry pan without any flour, so it
might be indirectly inferred that the technique was known.
Adamantius
On Nov 21, 2008, at 3:00 AM, Stefan li Rous
<StefanliRous at austin.rr.com> wrote:
Euriol mentioned:
<<< also did a butter fried shrimp recipe where it was dressed in
seasoned flour before it was fried, then fresh ginger was grated
right over the top. >>>
Was this based on a period recipe? I'm probably mis-remembering, but
I thought use of flour this way was out of period, although it may
have just been late period.
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 15:01:21 -0600 (CST)
From: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] butter fried shrimp
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Euriol mentioned:
<<< also did a butter fried shrimp recipe where it was dressed in
seasoned flour before it was fried, then fresh ginger was grated
right over the top. >>>
Was this based on a period recipe? I'm probably mis-remembering, but
I thought use of flour this way was out of period, although it may
have just been late period.
--------
I know that Rumpolt uses flour dusted over things to be fried in butter in
his Flooded Apples recipe, which has been well-received here.
--
-- Jenne Heise / Jadwiga Zajaczkowa
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 12:40:12 -0500
From: Michael Gunter <dookgunthar at hotmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Feeding the cat was Crepes
<<< Not sure about the impurities in the oil; maybe... I had always worked on the assumption the pan wasn't evenly heated the first attempt or two, pores in the metal had not yet opened to admit oil, etc. Whatever the reason, the first crepe to hit the pan is very often not optimal in quality.
Adamantius >>>
According to Russ Parsons in "How to Read a French Fry" new oil doesn't fry well because fried foods create a water barrier which prevents the oil from drying out the surface. When food is fried it creates a type of soap which breaks up the water barrier and allows the oil to contact the food surface and brown the food.
So fresh oil cannot properly cook until some impurities are added from previously fried material. This is why the first batch of french fries or pancakes or crepes or whatever are usually tossed. The impurities allow the water barrier created to be broken up and browning to commence.
Gunthar
<the end>