murri-msg - 12/24/18
The fermented barley paste condiment of medieval Arabia.
NOTE: See also the files: sauces-msg, rice-msg, grains-msg, yeasts-msg, verjuice-msg, vinegar-msg.
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From: mdcarey at compuserve.com (M+D (Mary + Doug Piero Carey))
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Murri citations
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 03:21:37 GMT
Organization: RAEX Corporation - North Canton, OH
Some time ago, my lord Cariadoc posted a message about the sauce
murri. I did a little digging and found that Charles Perry did indeed
publish several articles mentioning murri in the L. A. Times. All are
in ther Food section. I apologize for the lack of page numbers. The
Times' website doesn't give that information. (one is expected to
fork over $2 to download each article. Anyone who thinks this
particular cheapskate is going to pay that kind of money for an 89
word article needs to think again! Especially when my Interlibrary
Loan Department can provide it for free.) Anyway, here is the list:
ALL THE LOST FLAVORS May 18, 1995 2502 words
ROT SAUCE December 21, 1995 198 words ( on murri & Kam^makh)
CHICKEN WITH 4 U^QIYAS OF GARLIC May 30, 1996 219 words
*WHAT ROT! January 14, 1998 89 words
*STILL ROTTING February 18, 1998 169 words
*O. K., IT'S ROTTED, IS IT SAFE? April 1, 1998 228 words
*ROT OF AGES April 1, 1998 1411 words
GOT ROTTED MILK? September 2, 1998 226 words
The asterisks mark the articles in which I was certain he was
discussing technique. Further details after I make a research run to
Cleveland, or ILL has time to tickle their databases for me.
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:58:29 +1100 (EST)
From: Charles McCN <charlesn at sunrise.srl.rmit.edu.au>
Subject: SC - SC murri
Someone asked what it was. the web address for this is
http://www.mpce.mq.edu.au/~gnott/interests/NVG/article2_sup.html
and the page says...
Ok, if you really want to know what this stuff murri is, then cop a load
of this! This recipe was kindly supplied by Rick Cullinan
who has actually made it.
Byzantine Murri
Kitab Wasf, Sina'ah 52, p.56, Sina'ah 51, p. 65: Charles Perry tr.
Description
There is taken, upon the name of God the Most High, of honey
scorched in naqrah (perhaps this word means 'a silver vessel'), three ratls, pounded scorched oven bread, ten loaves; starch, half a ratl; roasted anise, fennel and nigelia, two uqiyahs of each; Byzantine saffron, an uqiya; celery
seed, an uqiyah; Syrian Carob, half a ratl; fifty peeled walnuts, as much as half a ratl; split quinces, five; salt, half makkauk dissolved in honey; thirty ratls water; and the rest of the ingredients are thrown in it, and it is boiled
on a slow flame until a third of the water is absorbed. Then it is strained well in a clean nosebag of hair. It is taken up in a greased glass or pottery vessel with a narrow top. A little lemon from Takranjiya (? Sina'ah 51 has Bakr Fahr) is thrown on it, and if it suits that a little water is thrown on the dough and it is boiled upon it and strained, it would be a second (infusion). The weights and measurements that are given are Antiochan and Zahiri [as] in Mayyafariqin.
The following quantities are for 1/32 of the above recipe. The first
time I used more bread and the mixture was too thick. I have not discovered what a mukkuk is, so the salt is pure guesswork.
1 ratl = 12 uquiya = 600mL
Recipe
3 tbls honey
45g bread
1 tbls wheat starch
2/3 tsp anise
2/3 tsp fennel
2/3 tsp nigelia DANGER: This plant is poisonous, omit from recipe
1/4 tsp saffron
1/3 tsp celery seed
3/2 tsp carob
3/2 tsp walnut
45g quince
1/8 tsp salt
600mL water
1/4 of a lemon
I cooked the honey in a small frying pan, bringing it to a boil then
turning off the heat several times; it tasted scorched. The bread was sliced white bread, toasted in a toaster to be somewhat blackened, then mashed in a mortar. The anise and fennel were toasted in a frying pan, then put
in a mortar with celery seed and walnut, and ground. After it was all boiled together, it was put in a cloth bag and the liquid drained out and used.
Reference
Kitab al Tibakhah, A Fifteenth-Century Cookbook, Charles Perry, tr.
The translation was published in Petis Propos Culinaires #21. The
original author is Ibn al-Mabrad or Ibn
al-Mubarrad. Cited in The Islamic World - The Complete Anachronist
#51 , September 1990, SCA Inc.
So have fun...
Charles
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:17:12 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - SC murri
At 4:58 PM +1100 10/24/97, Charles McCN wrote:
>Someone asked what it was. the web address for this is
>http://www.mpce.mq.edu.au/~gnott/interests/NVG/article2_sup.html
>
>and the page says...
>Ok, if you really want to know what this stuff murri is, then cop a load
>of this! This recipe was kindly supplied by Rick Cullinan
>who has actually made it.
>
>Byzantine Murri
>Kitab Wasf, Sina'ah 52, p.56, Sina'ah 51, p. 65: Charles Perry tr.
>
<snip>
>
>Reference
>
> Kitab al Tibakhah, A Fifteenth-Century Cookbook, Charles Perry, tr.
> The translation was published in Petis Propos Culinaires #21. The
>original author is Ibn al-Mabrad or Ibn
> al-Mubarrad. Cited in The Islamic World - The Complete Anachronist
>#51 , September 1990, SCA Inc.
>
>So have fun...
>Charles
1. You or Rick is confusing your sources. Charles Perry did translate Ibn
al Mubarrad (as well as Manuscrito Anonymo), but it isn't the source for
his Byzantine Murri recipe--as you can tell by the notes just under the
title.
2. Nigella is an ingredient in Indian cooking, also known as kalonji or
black onion seed. I have no reason to believe it is poisonous, and
routinely use it in making Byzantine Murri without ill effects. There are
other things called "Nigella," however, and it is possible Rick was
thinking of one of them.
3. The recipe you have from Rick is the version in the _Miscellany_ at
least two editions back, via my article on Islamic cooking in C.A.; there
are a couple of changes, such as the comment on Nigella and translating my
ounces of bread to grams. The "I" in the recipe you gave is me, not Rick.
Since then, I got more information on what a Makkuk was. The result is to
drastically increase the amount of salt. The version in the current
Miscellany is:
- ---
The following quantities are for 1/32 of the above recipe.
3 T honey 2/3 t nigela 1 1/2 oz quince
1 1/2 oz bread or 1/3 c breadcrumbs 1/4 t saffron 1/2 c salt in 3 T honey
1 T wheat starch 1/3 t celery seed 1 pint water
2/3 t anise 1/4 oz carob = 1 T lemon (1/4 of one)
2/3 t fennel 1/4 oz walnut
Cook the honey in a small frying pan on medium heat, bringing it to a boil
then turning off the heat and repeating several times; it will taste
scorched. The bread is sliced white bread, toasted in a toaster to be
somewhat blackened, then mashed in a mortar. Toast the anise, fennel and
nigela in a frying pan or roast under a broiler, then grind in a mortar
with celery seed and walnuts. The quince is quartered and cored. Boil all
but the lemon together for about 2 hours, then put it in a potato ricer,
squeeze out the liquid and add lemon juice to it; this is the murri. The
recipe generates about 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 c of liquid. You can then add
another 1/2 c of water to the residue, simmer 1/2 hr -1 hr, and squeeze out
that liquid for the second infusion, which yields about 1/3 c. A third
infusion using 1/3 c yields another 1/4 c or so.
- ---
David/Cariadoc
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:46:15 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Re- eggs
Stefan asked some questions about the Andalusian recipe for stuffed eggs;
>Any idea what *murri* is?
Real murri was an ingredient made by a long process of fermentation; it has
evidently not been made since about the 14th or 15th century. Think of it
as occupying the same position in medieval Islamic cuisine as soysauce in
modern Chinese--fermented, strongly flavored, salty flavoring liquid where
a lot is made at once, then you put a spoonful or two of it into half the
things you cook. (Note that I am not saying it tastes like soy sauce).
There was also a period fake murri made from scorched honey, burnt bread,
quince, anise, fennel, carob (only period use for carob I've seen), etc,
etc., salt. The recipe for this is in the Miscellany, and this is what we
use when recipes call for murri. You make up a batch, then keep it in the
refrigerator for months, using it when you are doing medieval Islamic
cooking. One of my best-received feast dishes ever was lamb in a marinade
based on murri and honey (also in the Miscellany, one of the Tabahaya
recipes).
Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:46:15 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Re- eggs
Stefan asked some questions about the Andalusian recipe for stuffed eggs;
>Any idea what *murri* is?
Real murri was an ingredient made by a long process of fermentation; it has
evidently not been made since about the 14th or 15th century. Think of it
as occupying the same position in medieval Islamic cuisine as soysauce in
modern Chinese--fermented, strongly flavored, salty flavoring liquid where
a lot is made at once, then you put a spoonful or two of it into half the
things you cook. (Note that I am not saying it tastes like soy sauce).
There was also a period fake murri made from scorched honey, burnt bread,
quince, anise, fennel, carob (only period use for carob I've seen), etc,
etc., salt. The recipe for this is in the Miscellany, and this is what we
use when recipes call for murri. You make up a batch, then keep it in the
refrigerator for months, using it when you are doing medieval Islamic
cooking. One of my best-received feast dishes ever was lamb in a marinade
based on murri and honey (also in the Miscellany, one of the Tabahaya
recipes).
Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 22:05:06 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - fermented murri
At 11:14 PM -0500 11/1/97, LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
> There are exrznt recipes for real murri im Cariadoc's Collections of
>Medieval Recipes. However, he also conveys the warning that if the real murri
>recipes atr followed the resulting sauce is extremely carcinogenic. For me I
>think I'll stick to the Byzantine fake maurri.
I have a good deal of information on the subject from Charles Perry. The
conjecture about its being carcinogenic is from him; I'm not inclined to
take it too seriously, but I could be wrong.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:01:14 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: SC - Murri: Late Breaking News
I just spoke on the phone to Charles Perry, who translated _Manuscrito
Anonimo_ and Ibn al Mubarad and knows more about medieval Islamic cooking
than anyone else I know. He has made murri and will describe the process in
an article in this weekend's L.A. Times (he's a food editor there).
He says it is similar, both in taste and chemical composition, to soy
sauce! Of course, it does not contain any soy beans--but apparently the
cheaper grades of soy sauce, although they have some soy beans, are based
in part on grains, as is murri. He no longer believes that it is
sufficiently carcinogenic to be a problem--a conjecture he once offered to
explain its disappearance.
Incidentally, if any of you are actually engaged in translating period
Arabic cookbooks (I have a hard time keeping track of who is doing what),
Perry is willing to correspond on the subject.
The reason I had called him was to ask permission to web his translation of
_Manuscrito Anonimo_. He says I can, but he wants to make some corrections
first.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 08:59:54 -1000
From: Paul Buell <pdbuell at sprintmail.com>
To: "MEDIEV-L at raven.cc.ukans.edu" <MEDIEV-L at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Arabic Rotten Condiments
Food historian Gene Anderson was good enough to sent this news to me and
I thought it might be of interest to the list. Perry, the acknowledged
expert in Medieval Arabic and Turkic foods, is food critic for the Los
Angeles Times. This is not the first rotted condiment he has re-created.
He did bunn several years ago, and some others. I don't know if
Anderson's party guests survived.
<snip>
- --Charles Perry re-created murri, the rotted barley paste condiment of
medieval Arabia. He followed the most likely recipe but tried out 2 others
(which proved abortive). Barley meal, made into wet lumps, covered with fig
leaves, left in warm place for 4 months (there are some other
manipulations). The LATimes staff gave names to each lump--"Whiskers,"
"Spot," etc.--according to the moldiness. Anyway, the 4 months were up
March 28, and they tried it out. The murri is to be mushed up in water. So
they did:
"...and it tasted like...
Soy sauce."
Turns out that murri is basically a koji, and the resulting sauce is
essentially just ordinary soy sauce. So he wrote it up in the LAT Food
Section, and gave a recipe for a dish with it--you can, of course, use soy
sauce if you don't want to let barley rot for 4 months in your kitchen. I'm
gonna try it for a party tomorrow.
Gene Anderson
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 23:16:38 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Arabic Rotten Condiments (fwd)
>GREAT!! It takes a year to make good soy sauce, this might be a shortcut!! Or
>is it GOOD soy sauce?? Well, not so good soy had wheat in it too...
As I think I mentioned when I posted on this some days ago--before the LA
Times article--Charles Perry suggested that cheap soy sauce would have a
higher ratio of wheat to soy, so be closer to murri.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:35:57 -0700
From: "needlwitch at msn.com" <needlewitch at email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Ingredient question
>I am working on a Spanish/Andalusian feast and have come across the
>ingredient "murri" several times, especially in relation to stuffed
>eggs.
>
>Does anyone know what this is and where I could find it or how to make
>it? (BTW, I am going to a Middle Eastern specialty store this weekend.)
>
>Failenn
Murri
The 13th-century Islamic recipes frequently contain an ingredient translated
as "murri" or "almori." It is one of a group of condiments that were popular
in early Islamic cooking and vanished sometime after the fourteenth century.
Al-Baghdadi gives the following recipes for murri; if you try one and it
works out, let me know. According to Charles Perry, the translator of the
Kitab al Tibakhah mentioned above, the penny-royal in these recipes is a
mis-translation and should be budhaj (rotted barley). He gives the following
instructions for making budhaj:
"All the recipes concur that budhaj was made from barley flour (or a mixture
of barley and wheat) kneaded without leaven or salt. Loaves of this dough
were rotted, generally in closed containers for 40 days, and then dried and
ground into flour for further rotting into the condiments."
(First recipe)
Take 5 ratls each of penny-royal and flour. Make the flour into a good dough
without leaven or salt, bake, and leave until dry. Then grind up fine with
the penny-royal, knead into a green trough with a third the quantity of
salt, and put out into the sun for 40 days in the heat of the summer,
kneading every day at dawn and evening, and sprinkling with water. When
black, put into conserving jars, cover with an equal quantity of water,
stirring morning and evening: then strain it into the first murri. Add
cinnamon, saffron and some aromatic herbs.
(Second recipe)
Take penny-royal and wheaten or barley flour, make into a dry dough with hot
water, using no leaven or salt, and bake into a loaf with a hole in the
middle. Wrap in fig leaves, stuff into a preserving-jar, and leave in the
shade until fetid. Then remove and dry.
As you can see, making murri is an elaborate process, and tasting
unsuccessful experiments might be a hazardous one; Charles Perry, who has
done experiments along these lines, warns that the products may be seriously
carcinogenic.
In addition to the surviving recipes for murri, there are also at least two
surviving references to what was apparently a fake murri, a substitute made
by a much simpler process. If one cannot have real murri, period fake murri
seems like the next best thing. The recipe is as follows:
Byzantine Murri
Kitab Wasf, Sina'ah 52, p. 56, Sina'ah 51, p. 65: Charles Perry tr.
Description of byzantine murri [made] right away: There is taken, upon the
name of God the Most High, of honey scorched in a nuqrah [perhaps this word
means 'a silver vessel'], three ratls; pounded scorched oven bread, ten
loaves; starch, half a ratl; roasted anise, fennel and nigella, two uqiyahs
of each; byzantine saffron, an uqiya; celery seed, an uqiyah; syrian carob,
half a ratl; fifty peeled walnuts, as much as half a ratl; split quinces,
five; salt, half a makkuk dissolved in honey; thirty ratls water; and the
rest of the ingredients are thrown on it, and it is boiled on a slow flame
until a third of the water is absorbed. Then it is strained well in a clean
nosebag of hair. It is taken up in a greased glass or pottery vessel with a
narrow top. A little lemon from Takranjiya (? Sina'ah 51 has Bakr Fahr) is
thrown on it, and if it suits that a little water is thrown on the dough and
it is boiled upon it and strained, it would be a second (infusion). The
weights and measurements that are given are Antiochan and Zahiri [as] in
Mayyafariqin.
1 ratl = 12 uqiya = 1 pint
1 Makkuk = 7.5-18.8 liters dry measure
Thorbjorn the Cook
Shittemwoode/Antir
{Northwest Washington}
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:57:21 EST
From: Acanthusbk at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Murri
Mordonna22 at aol.com writes:
> LrdRas at aol.com writes:
> > I made the Byzantine Murri but I did include Barley in my seed order
> > so I could try the original in the fall. :-)
> Do let us know how it turns out. I'm not sure I would be brave enough to
> try it. The recipes I have seen seem to me to be a sure breeding ground for
> ergot or one of it's cousins.
Just last week I reread an interesting paper, _Medieval Near Eastern Rotted
Condiments_ by Charles Perry, about kamakh, murri and bunn. Bottom
line...Perry says when prepared in the traditional manner involving rotted
grain and bread "it is strongly advised not to eat any of these preparations.
They are highly carcinogenic." Further discussion follows re rotted grains
being rich in aflatoxins, considered among the most virulent carcinogens
known. This article appears in the 1987 Oxford Symposium Proceedings
("Taste"), as well as in part (recipes excluded) in Paul Levy's _Penguin
Book of Food and Drink_.
Amanda
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:46:23 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Murri
Mordonna22 at aol.com writes:
> LrdRas at aol.com writes:
> > I made the Byzantine Murri but I did include Barley in my seed order
> > so I could try the original in the fall. :-)
> > Do let us know how it turns out. I'm not sure I would be brave enough to
> > try it. The recipes I have seen seem to me to be a sure breeding ground
> > for ergot or one of it's cousins.
I vaguely recall HG Cariadoc telling us on this list that Perry had
since revised his opinion about the carcinogenic qualities of murri.
As I recall, the process for making murri is fairly similar to what is
involved in making certain grades of soy sauce, and while the solidified
soy-wheat cake dregs are sometimes eaten, and are believed to be in part
responsible for the high rate of stomach cancer in parts of Asia, I'm
not aware of anyone concluding soy sauce was carcinogenic.
It's possible that Perry applied a similar logic in revising his findings.
Adamantius
Østgardr, East
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:43:36 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Murri
At 12:46 PM -0500 1/15/99, Philip & Susan Troy wrote:
>I vaguely recall HG Cariadoc telling us on this list that Perry had
>since revised his opinion about the carcinogenic qualities of murri.
I never found Charles Perry's argument convincing, since I doubt it would
have been in common use for so long if it had really serious problems of
that sort. In any case, he made some murri some months back, and published
an article on it in the L.A. Times. He says it is somewhat similar to soy
sauce. Apparently soy sauce is made not only from soy beans but also from
fermented grain--like murri, although murri uses barley.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 21:55:02 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Murri
<< Charles Perry made some a few months back; he says it tastes somewhat
like soy sauce.
David Friedman >>
Thank, Your Grace. The fake version is also in the same league as soy sauce
also. Now my curiosity is really in full gear to see what subtle differences
there are between the fake and real stuff.
I made the the mistake of stepping away from the stove for a little while
while boiling the Byzantine murri and it bubbled out of the pot and ran all
down the sides of the pan but other than that I am very pleased with the final
product. At the very least it opens up whole new doors in my on going project
of redacting recipes from al-Baghdadi. One of the most intriguing things was
that despite the amount of honey used over all, the finished murri is not
what I would call sweet. Salty but not sweet. The flavor is surprisingly good
and I suspect that murri will find it's way into my modern cooking also. :-)
Ras
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:03:03 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Byzantine murri naqi
stefan at texas.net writes:
<< Would you say it tastes similar to soy sauce? If different, can you
describe how it differs in taste? >>
Describing taste is a difficult thing to do. It is salty, has a spicy under
taste that is difficult to pinpoint, with subtle hints of 'smokyness' and an
elusive sweetness. This a really poor description, I know but can you tell me
what celery tastes like? :-)
Ras
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 21:31:32 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Murri question
lilinah at grin.net writes:
<< Is there anything that is a vaguely suitable substitute?>>
Tastewise? Not really. It has a taste uniquely it's own. If you have a few
minutes at the site you might try reducing some regular soy sauce with some
honey in it and a dash of 5 spice powder by half. It really won't taste very
similar at all but it should give you the salty/sweet/spicy taste murri has.
<<I've never tasted murri so can't try to come up with one myself. >>
It tastes like chicken. :-)
Seriously though, there is really nothing I have ever tasted that tastes
very much like it at all. :-(
Ras
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:28:24 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Quinces
lilinah at grin.net writes:
<< Now that I'm home, I'm planning to make a bit of Byzantine murri with
the quinces. They sure smell sweet and fragrant! >>
Do make the murri. It is wonderful stuff. I have went through 2 qt. in the
kitchen for regular cooking since I first made it a while back. It is a pain
in the butt to make but it sure beats some of the commercial 'sauces', IMO.
:-)
Ras
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:07:13 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: SC - Murri flavor
KallipygosRed at aol.com writes:
<< What does the Murri taste like? Can I get a comparison? >>
Caramelized saltiness with an under flavor of fennel (?) perhaps. They are
many spices in the Byzantine murri and no one predominates, IMO. I would say
that the flavor is as different from soy sauce as Worcestershire sauce is
different from fish sauce, if that makes any sense......
Ras
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 23:12:04 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Murri flavor
At 12:01 AM -0400 9/21/00, Philip & Susan Troy wrote:
>Charles Perry, a translator of the recipes for both types, IIRC, was the
>one who originally decided murri proper (not Byzantine murri) oughtta be
>like soy sauce since it was made in a similar way from similar
>ingredients.
More significantly, he made murri and reported that it tasted rather
like soy sauce.
>However, that's no reason to assume Byzantine murri would
>taste the same. On the other hand, since there's a fairly broad range of
>different flavors associated with different types of soy sauce,
>including some which aren't made in an especially traditional manner,
>maybe a perceived dissimilarity between the two types of murri doesn't
>make either one less viable as murri.
But we do have a period warning (in the Andalusian cookbook) against
using what sounds like Byzantine murri. And since it is much easier
to make, there is at least a presumption that it was considered an
inferior substitute--otherwise why would anyone make the real murri?
- --
David Friedman
ddfr at best.com
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 23:29:57 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Murri flavor
LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
> We also have Perry's warning that actual murri is carcinogenic. Then we have
> a later statement that perhaps it is not.... Neither opinion was backed by
> any information that would support either view. :-(
No, actually there's at least an indirect foundation. Soy sauce is made,
as we said before, by allowing cooked grains (and beans), formed into
loaves, to grow a mold culture. (Not unlike tempeh.) These loaves of
moldy grain are then steeped in brine, which is the soy sauce. People in
parts of China where soy sauce is made actually eat the brined cakes,
once the soy sauce is drained off. China has the highest rate of stomach
cancer in the world, and epicenters for the highest rates of stomach
cancer in China are those areas where soy sauce is produced, and the
cakes eaten. It's been theorized that the cakes contain carcinogens
(incidentally, _some_ forms of tempeh have been alleged to contain
carcinogens as well). There seems to be no real evidence to suggest that
soy sauce itself is a carcinogen, and murri appears to be in a nearly
identical situation (not necessarily in regard to a map showing
incidence of stomach cancer, but as to manufacture). And as I recall
Perry didn't exactly say that murri was carcinogenic, but said that due
to research concerning soy sauce, he had reason to suspect murri might
similarly contain some unknown level of carcinogenic chemicals. In other
words, not that he knew it was carcinigenic, but that he didn't know it
wasn't, and hoped for a little more research to be done to be sure he
wasn't promoting a dangerous product.
Adamantius
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:48:39 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - A murri question
Quite a while back Katja wrote:
>Okay, could you good cooks on the list give me some input, please? I made
>Byzantine murri (from His Grace's Miscellany) for a Middle Eastern feast two
>years ago and was incredibly unhappy with the result.
>
>It was the *only* time in six years that I've redacted/made a period recipe
>and found the resulting dish completely unpalatable... not just bland, over-
>or under-spiced, or wrong in texture, but absolutely unpleasant and nasty!
As Ras already said, it's not meant to be eaten straight.
>I should note that my murri was *very* liquid - not at all thick or
>pastelike.
Ours is a thick or gloppy liquid, not a paste. Maybe you need to cook
it down a bit longer?
>The only derivation I made from Duke Sir Cariadoc's printed recipe was the
>use of quince - I could not find fresh quinces in any of the public markets,
>health food stores, or supermarkets in the Rochester, NY area, so I ended up
>using a couple of tablespoons of quince jelly as a substitute. (Yes, I
>already had wheat starch and nigella in my kitchen.)
If I have to substitute for quince I use a cooking apple--I think
using the related fresh fruit gives you a much closer substitute than
the jelly would--and as far as I can tell, it comes out pretty
similar to the way it does with quince. Typically, the places that
have quince only have it in season, which means fall, while apples
are available year round.
Next time you make some, try it in the recipe for Tab‚hajah from the
manuscript of Yahya b. Khalid (in the Miscellany--I can post it if
you can't find it). Everyone I know of who has tried that likes it.
Elizabeth/Betty Cook (about a month behind on the list)
From: mdcarey at compuserve.com (M+D (Mary + Doug Piero Carey))
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Murri citations
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 03:21:37 GMT
Organization: RAEX Corporation - North Canton, OH
Some time ago, my lord Cariadoc posted a message about the sauce
murri. I did a little digging and found that Charles Perry did indeed
publish several articles mentioning murri in the L. A. Times. All are
in ther Food section. I apologize for the lack of page numbers. The
Times' website doesn't give that information. (one is expected to
fork over $2 to download each article. Anyone who thinks this
particular cheapskate is going to pay that kind of money for an 89
word article needs to think again! Especially when my Interlibrary
Loan Department can provide it for free.) Anyway, here is the list:
ALL THE LOST FLAVORS May 18, 1995 2502 words
ROT SAUCE December 21, 1995 198 words ( on murri & Kam^makh)
CHICKEN WITH 4 U^QIYAS OF GARLIC May 30, 1996 219 words
*WHAT ROT! January 14, 1998 89 words
*STILL ROTTING February 18, 1998 169 words
*O. K., IT'S ROTTED, IS IT SAFE? April 1, 1998 228 words
*ROT OF AGES April 1, 1998 1411 words
GOT ROTTED MILK? September 2, 1998 226 words
The asterisks mark the articles in which I was certain he was
discussing technique. Further details after I make a research run to
Cleveland, or ILL has time to tickle their databases for me.
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 20:35:27 -0800
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: david friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Murri
>I'm planning on using HG Cariadoc's recipe for "fake murri." And all
>those yummy recipes is exactly why _I_ want to make it, too.
>Say....does anyone know how long murri keeps? Does it need to be
>refrigerated, or can it sit on the shelf with my soy sauce,
>worchestershire, etc.?
>--Maire
We keep it in the refrigerator, where it lasts for a very long time.
I haven't tried leaving it out; given how salty it is, it's possible
that it would be all right.
--
David/Cariadoc
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 09:32:35 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fake murri (was: adventures in doing things with
Spanish...)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Generys wrote:
> Having made this recipe both ways, I highly recommend making a batch of the
> "fake murri" in the Miscellany and use that instead of the soy sauce - it's
> a *really* interesting, hard to describe flavor, that people REALLY liked
> when I served it at feast.
Note that this is a good time of the year to make the Byzantine
murri, because quinces are available now. (If you can't get a quince,
substitute a cooking apple--we have done it that way and it works.)
The stuff will then keep in the refrigerator long term.
Elizabeth/Betty Cook
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 23:39:56 -0800
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Uses for fava beans....
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
<snip>
Light soy sauce is a very acceptable substitute according to Charles
Perry who made murri from scratch - moldy damp barley loaves - etc. I
finally got to read his articles about the process that were in the
LA Times, minus the photos of the loaves, alas - they had *names* -
including Spot, Whiskers, Skinhead, and Pigpen... anyway, the final
product tasted a lot like a somewhat less "rich" soy sauce. Some
Asian soy sauces are about 50 per cent grain, and those - or lesser
varieties that use even more grain - would be closer to murri than a
good aged tamari (yes, Virginia, tamari tastes significantly
different from the average Kikkoman, which is rather more watery)
--
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:36:32 -0800
From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Murri
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Gianotta wrote:
>Does anyone know of any scholarly theories why this ubiquitous
>flavoring in medieval Arabic cooking virtually disappeared by the
>15th century?
Nope, but i'd sure love to know if there are some...
I'd ask the same question about garum/liquamen, the Greco-Roman fish
sauce. According to Andrew Dalby it was still being made in Byzantium
when the Ottomans finally conquered it. The Ottoman Turks loathed
fish, but the Christians and the poor in Istanbul continued to devour
them. So it appears that fish sauce lasted at least into the 16th C.,
a bit past the conquest of Constantinople.
In fact, there are some Arabic language recipes specify "fish murri",
which i interpret as being fish sauce/garum/liquamen.
>Since Charles Perry abandoned the carcinogenicity theory, has
>anything come officially in its place?
Well, he not only abandoned the carcinogen theory, in early 1998 he
*made murri from scratch* and documented the process in the LA Times.
There's synopsis of his articles at:
http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-CONDIMENTS/murri-msg.html
You'll need to scroll down, down, down. Most of the top concerns the
carcinogenic theory and Byzantine murri.
Perry said that essentially those "rotted" barley loaves were like
koji, the base for Japanese soy sauce. And that following the
directions, the resulting liquid, which is murri, was like a grain
based soy sauce. He recommends using a soy sauce that is high in
grain content (and lower in soy) to replace murri in recipes. In my
study of several cookbooks, some actually specific to NOT use
"Byzantine" or fake murri.
I got a hold of the text of Perry's murri-making articles and have
used his conclusion as a reason to use mild soy sauce in some 14th C.
Mamluk-period recipes in Cairene "The Book of the Description of
Familiar Foods".
I don't mind using soy sauce, but i do find it disturbing to read
"soy sauce" in Perry's translations of Medieval Arabic language
recipes. I've considered diluting barley miso and using that, but i
haven't tried that yet. I may get around to it this year.
>Could severe famines have anything to do with it? (With grain
>shortages, one would imagine that making murri would fall off the
>list of priorities of what to do with the barley). Or are there
>other reasons?
This seems odd to me, since barley is only the basic grain for those
in the Arab/Muslim world who are rather poor. Barley was eaten by
some Berber/Amazight people - it may be the original couscous - and
by Bedouins who have rare contact with villages. The grains of the
cities were wheat - in breads, baked goods, porridges, etc. - and
rice. My understanding is that barley is much hardier than wheat, and
so it might have been available during a grain shortage - and, yes, i
can see that people might stop making murri for a while - but why not
go back when the grain shortage is over?
I suspect that the shortage could certainly contribute to the
disappearance of murri, but i wonder if there weren't some other
additional issues contributing, since there were other types of murri
- such as fish murri and Byzantine/fake murri - that were also being
made at the same time.
If you find any more information about the disappearance of grain and
fish murris, i'd love to hear.
--
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 21:08:09 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Murri
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
On Jan 17, 2007, at 7:36 PM, Lilinah wrote:
> If you find any more information about the disappearance of grain and
> fish murris, i'd love to hear.
Pisalat is alive and well and living in Nice, Marseilles, etc. That's
a little more like halec than liquamen (IOW, a paste rather than a
clear liquid), I guess, but the process is pretty much the same and
the flavor is similar.
Adamantius
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:18:36 -0800
From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Murri
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
>I had forgotten about the allegations of murri (or its ingredients)
>being carcinogenic, but somehow missed the details on why this turns
>out to be untrue.
Lemme look at the LA Times texts. My recollection is that Perry sent
his murri out to be tested, ISTR, for aflatoxins...
>I know that consumption of the solid cakes that
>are a by-product of soy sauce production has been linked to China
>having the highest per capita incidence of stomach cancer in the
>world. Has that been disproven as well?
AFAIK, this is still true. Of course, the Japanese also make soy
sauce, and i haven't heard they have a parallel problem there, but
maybe it just hasn't been as widely reported.
--
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 16:07:28 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Salty fishy liquid ( was Re: Murri )
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
For all those who love that rotted salty fishy stuff, Charles Perry sent me this link:
http://www.tipicalia.com/main/prodotti_tipici/colatura_alici.html
"Colatura di alice" (that last word is pronounced AH-leech in dialect), this page simultaneously claims, is directly descended from Greco-Roman cuisine or the creation of Cistercian monks. It's local to Cetara, a city on the Amalfi coast, where the Byzantines and Muslims occupied various locations at various times. It could be related to the fish murri, but again, it's impossible to tell.
I'm a bad little Italian. I can't stand sardines and have a low tolerance for anchovies, so the changes of me actually liking this stuff are very, very, low. Ecccccchhhhh!
Gianotta
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 16:45:47 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Salty fishy liquid ( was Re: Murri )
To: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>, Cooks within the SCA
<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
On Jan 19, 2007, at 4:07 PM, Christiane wrote:
> For all those who love that rotted salty fishy stuff, Charles Perry
> sent me this link:
>
> http://www.tipicalia.com/main/prodotti_tipici/colatura_alici.html
>
> "Colatura di alice" (that last word is pronounced AH-leech in
> dialect), this page simultaneously claims, is directly descended
> from Greco-Roman cuisine or the creation of Cistercian monks. It's
> local to Cetara, a city on the Amalfi coast, where the Byzantines
> and Muslims occupied various locations at various times. It could
> be related to the fish murri, but again, it's impossible to tell.
I'd bet money it's more closely related to the Graeco-Roman liquamen
tradition (which may or may not be argued to be contiguous, if you
know what I mean), given both the location and the fact that its name
sounds quite a bit like "halec".
> I'm a bad little Italian. I can't stand sardines and have a low
> tolerance for anchovies, so the changes of me actually liking this
> stuff are very, very, low. Ecccccchhhhh!
<shrug> Good little Indians, Chinese, French, Filipino, and lots of
other people add small amounts of similar products to various dishes
in place of [some of the] salt, and most of them don't taste
particularly fishy... just not quite "right" without them.
Adamantius
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 19:52:16 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Murri and muria was pantry - garum
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Here's a question for you: What is the etymology of the word "murri?" We
have recipes for murri and Byzantine murri. We have references to murri
naqi and fish murri. But do we have any idea from where the word
derives?
Now, let me do some pure speculation.
According to Curtis, Roman fish sauces come in four forms; garum, allec,
liquamen and muria. Garum is the liquid decanted from a couple of months of
salted, fermenting fish. Allec is the residue left after the garum is
removed. Liquamen seems to be a suace leeched from fermenting fish
(apparently similar to modern fish sauces like Worchestershire). And muria
is a somewhat broadly defined term to refer to salt solutions extracted from
or used to preserve meats, fruits and vegetables. All of these sauces were
used and made around the entire Mediterranean, up into the Black Sea
and far south down the Nile.
I think it is highly possible that "murri" is an Arabic form of the Roman
(of Greek origin) "muria" brought into Arabic well before the Islamic
expansion. That being said, I haven't seen any evidence to tie the two to
each other. I also can't think of a way to prove or disprove my theory.
Anyone got any ideas?
Bear
> Terry Decker wrote:
>
>> There are references to "fish murri" in the Anonymous Andalusian Cookbook,
>> but I don't think there is a recipe available. Fish murri is often
>> considered to be garum or liquamen by assuming that it is a fermented fish
>> sauce as murri is a fermented barley sauce. While this may be a reasonable
>> assumption, there is, to my knowledge, no solid evidence to
>> incontrovertably support the idea.
>
> Cripes, I _had_ to look it up. I could only find one reference to
> "fish murri".
> --
> Adele de Maisieres
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 14:20:22 -0400
From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Murri and muria
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Terry Decker wrote:
> What is the etymology of the word "murri?"
The Real Academia Espanol Dictionary states that it comes from Classical
Arabic "murri", this from Armenian "murya", and this is from the Latin
"muria, salmuera" (brine, very salty water used in preserved food).
Salmuera in literally means sal del mar - salt from the sea.
Suey
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 14:32:22 -0400
From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Murri and muria
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
I wrote:
> Terry Decker wrote:
>> What is the etymology of the word "murri?"
> The Real Academia Espanol Dictionary states that it comes from
> Classical Arabic "murri", this from Armenian "murya", and this is from
> the Latin "muria, salmuera" (brine, very salty water used in preserved
> food).
> Salmuera in literally means sal del mar - salt from the sea.
> Suey
Oops, there is more to this Garcia Rey/. /Verardo, _Vocabulario del
Bierzo_, Madrid: S. Aguirre, Impresor, 1934. Madrid. p 140 states:
salt murri, a pickling brine. The word is derived from "sal" (salt) + L.
muria (brine)
and Alonso, Mart?n. _Enciclopedia del idioma, diccionario hist?rico y
moderno de la lengua espa?ola (siglos XII al XX): etimol?gico,
tecnol?gico, regional e hispanoamericano_.1994:I:A:275 says:
Latin "muria" (salt liquor, brine).
Suey
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 13:06:42 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: <lilinah at earthlink.net>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Murri Question
Lidia Allen wrote:
<<< I am planning an Andalusian meal and would like to make a dish that calls for Murri (or Almori?). Is this commercially available? In researching the ingredients, it sounds similar to Worcestershire sauce. Would that be an acceptable substitute, or should I try fish sauce if I don't find the real thing? I would be grateful for any assistance. >>>
I would NOT recommend Worcestershire Sauce. Its flavor is quite different from any form of murri i've tasted.
<<< From what i have read, murri is not a fish sauce, although fish murri is called for in one recipes in the Anon. Andalusian cookbook. I have tasted the murri made by Cariadoc, which is not make of aged barley, but involves toasted bread, honey, and spices, and seasoned murri is called for in three. >>>
Nowadays i think anyone can find Charles Perry's articles on his experiment making murri which were published in the LA Times in the 1990s. I recommend reading them. He thought it tasted a lot like mild Japanese soy sauce (do NOT use Chinese, which has a VERY different flavor).
At Pennsic 2011 i also had the opportunity to taste someone else's murri made from scratch, presumably in a process similar to Charles Perry's. His mundane name is Michael J. Fuller, and he is an archaeologist and professor of archaeology in real life. He's on Facebook and his photo album is public, as far as i can tell. There he has photos of his murri, which is medium-light brown, quite transparent and clear. In my opinion his finished product looked and tasted a lot like Thai fish sauce (in particular, Tiparos brand).
https://www.facebook.com/michael.j.fuller/media_set?set=a.490832582342.267535.526022342&type=3
[that is the set entitled Murri Sauce Production
Another possibility, in my opinion, is to dilute Japanese barley miso, strain it, and use that, since the primary ingredient in murri is barley.
So, which do you use: Byzantine murri (the recipe Cariadoc used), diluted miso, mild Japanese soy sauce, Thai fish sauce?
I would say it's up to you, your experiments with the differing flavors, and the dietary needs of your diners.
Urtatim (that's oor-tah-TEEM)
From the fb "Medieval and Ren. Recipes" group:
Bridget Coffman
This is from one of my feast books from a few years ago:
Murri Naqi is a sauce used as a condiment and as a seasoning agent in many recipes. The author of the Anonymous Andalusian Cookbook had this to say about Murri:
“Murri is not suitable to be used unless of the infused sort, because of its benefits and penetrating quality; following this is murri made of grape juice with spices but without burned bread. The murri that people make with scorched honey and bread and other things is not suitable to be used at all, for it causes black bile and has neither benefit nor penetrating flavor.”
True murri uses fermented barley and as he said, often included scorched honey and burned bread. I’ve chosen instead to take his advice and make a murri based on grape juice and spices instead.
Murri naqî’
14 c Grape Juice
2 Apples
2 Pears
3 tsp Salt
1/2 c Honey
4 tsp Nigella Seed
3 tsp Celery Seed
3 tsp Fennel Seed
3 tsp Peppercorns
2 tsp Anise
2 tbsp Cocoa Nibs
2 tbsp Corn Starch
Place all in a large pot and bring to a boil. Simmer for several hours until the sauce reduces by at least half. Strain and store in jars in the refrigerator.
3/31/17
Bridget Coffman
Crack the seeds with a mortar and pestle a bit first for stronger flavor.
From the fb "SCA Cooks" group:
Urtatim Al-Qurtubiyya
There are FOURTEEN recipes for making murri in the 13th c. Andalusi Fadalat al-Khiwan!
7/7/17
<the end>