fd-France-msg – 3/16/08
Food of medieval France. References.
NOTE: See also the files: France-msg, fd-Germany-msg, fd-Normans-msg, fd-Celts-msg, snails-msg, Gaul-art, Normans-msg, Paris-msg, frogs-msg, duck-goose-msg.
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Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 15:15:02 -0500
From: Angie Malone <alm4 at cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - cookbooks
>Since I'm from the France, in the 1500's, I thought it was high time that I
>learn some recipes from the region and time period. So, if anyone knows the
>name of a cookbook that I can pick up at the library, I would really
>appreciate it.
>
>Chante
Not sure what century this book is from but it would probably be helpful to
look at it:
Early French Cookery: Sources, History, Original Recipes and Modern Adaptations
D. Eleanor Scully Eleanor Scully Terence Scully
Your library should be able to get it if they don't have it thru
interlibrary loan.
Angeline
Lady Angeline di Aquila
Seneschal--Dominion of Myrkfaelinn, Kingdom of Aethelmearc
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 15:18:17 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - cookbooks
Pink Sunshine wrote:
> Since I'm from the France, in the 1500's, I thought it was high time that I
> learn some recipes from the region and time period. So, if anyone knows the
> name of a cookbook that I can pick up at the library, I would really
> appreciate it.
Hmmm...16th century...
you seem to have instinctively hit on something of a gap in the written
material, at least compared to the 15th and 17th centuries in France.
From the fifteenth century we have Chiquart's (in this case _very_ early
15th) Du Fait de Cuisine, and then somewhat later there's the Vivendier,
which is, IIRC, a 16th-century ms. found in Germany but written in
French, which may or may not be a direct linear descendant of
Taillevent's Le Viandier. It has some very buff and kewl stuff in it,
and there's a fairly recent edition edited by Terence Scully. And
speaking of Scully, I believe Le Viandier might have had some textual
currency in the form of copies being made until at least the sixteenth
century, so one might argue it (or rather a linear descendant -- the
recipes seem to change a bit over time, either due to food
fashion/evolution or scribal changes) might have had a culinary
influence on some strata of 16th-century French society.
Adamantius
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 13:10:52 -0600
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - cookbooks
At 1:46 PM -0600 12/8/99, Pink Sunshine wrote:
>Since I'm from the France, in the 1500's, I thought it was high time that I
>learn some recipes from the region and time period. So, if anyone knows the
>name of a cookbook that I can pick up at the library, I would really
>appreciate it.
You will find English translations of two cookbooks a little earlier
than that on my web page.
David Friedman
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:24:55 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - cookbooks
Savoring the Past also delves deeply into the changes in French cookery from
the Middle Ages to the abrupt style change in the early modern or' nouveau
cuisine' period. This book like many others of its ilk tends to parrot the
old cliches and inaccuracies that appear in almost every supposedly
'scholarly' work on the subject but as a source for basic information on
French cookery just post-middle ages, it is not a bad read.
Ras
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 02:03:12 +0100
From: Thomas Gloning <Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de>
Subject: SC - French 16th century cookbooks
A good place to start is the article:
Philip Hyman et Mary Hyman: Les livres de cuisine et le
commerce des recettes en France aux XVe et XVIe siècles.
In: Du manuscrit à la table. Ed. Carole Lambert.
Paris/ Montréal 1992, 59-68.
This article contains a chronological list of printed French cookbooks
from about 1486 up to about 1620 (2 1/2w pages bibliography; about 50
versions).
Thomas
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 21:27:24 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - French 16th century cookbooks
Pink Sunshine wrote:
> << Philip Hyman et Mary Hyman: Les livres de cuisine et le
> commerce des recettes en France aux XVe et XVIe siècles.
> In: Du manuscrit à la table. Ed. Carole Lambert.
> Paris/ Montréal 1992, 59-68. >>
>
> I'm not sure what this is, is it something I look up at the library or on
> the internet?
>
> Chante
No, this is the real thing; you need a library. It's a book of collected
essays on culinary history in several languages, French and English
making up most, but not all, of the text, which is edited by Carole
Lambert, published in Paris and Montreal in 1992 by a company called
Champion-Slatkine. The title is "Du manuscrit à la table", and the ISBN
is 2-7606-1564-2 _OR_ 2-85203-707-6. The rest of the above is the title
of an essay by Philip and Mary Hyman.
Adamantius
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 21:45:54 -0500
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - French 16th century cookbooks
And it came to pass on 10 Dec 99,, that Pink Sunshine wrote:
> << Philip Hyman et Mary Hyman: Les livres de cuisine et le
> commerce des recettes en France aux XVe et XVIe siècles.
> In: Du manuscrit à la table. Ed. Carole Lambert.
> Paris/ Montréal 1992, 59-68. >>
>
> I'm not sure what this is, is it something I look up at the library or on
> the internet?
>
> Chante
_Du manuscrit a la table_ is a collection of essays on various aspects
of medieval cuisine. About half of them are in French, and half in
English. (It was published in Montreal, dontcha know.) Your local
library will probably not have the book, but they should be able to
request photocopies of pp. 59-68 for you. Tell the librarian that the
ISBN is 2-7606-1564-2.
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:02:54 -0800
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: david friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] any suggestions for soltie?
Olwen wrote:
>OK the Bright Hills cooks are at it again in April. The time and theme for
>that feast will be recipes from the era and area of King Rene'. In other
>words, late 1400's French cookery. No one at the meeting made any
>suggestions about a soltie and I have no idea, being not french and way long
>dead by the 1400's (I'm 9th centruy Welsh/Saxon).
Look at _Du Fait de Cuisine_ (1420, French--not too far off what you
want); my translation is on Cariadoc's website and there exists a
professional one by Terrance Scully. It describes some subtleties or
"entremets" which are elaborate past anything I've seen or heard of
at SCA feasts.
Elizabeth/Betty Cook
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 07:36:33 -0700
From: Sue Clemenger <mooncat at in-tch.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] OOP-French food website
To: "SCA Cooks' List" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Maire, again, with another food website. This one has some very
yummy-looking french foods (herbs, flours, coffees, teas, pastries,
jams, etc).
http://www.furansunocafe.com/html/en/index.php
--maire
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 23:37:06 -0700
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Introduction and a Request
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> So basically I'm looking for any suggestions any of you may have for
> recipes (or leads on where to find them) for Provencale foods,
> either period or modern.
You might want to look at _Du Fait de Cuisine_--there is a
translation webbed on my site. It's a 15th century cookbook written
by the chief cook of the Duke of Savoy, which gets it pretty close to
Provence. I don't know of any period cookbooks that are actually from
Provence, but I'm not very familiar with the 16th century sources.
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 08:48:12 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Introduction and a Request
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Apr 14, 2006, at 2:37 AM, David Friedman wrote:
>> So basically I'm looking for any suggestions any of you may have
>> for recipes (or leads on where to find them) for Provencale foods,
>> either period or modern.
>
> You might want to look at _Du Fait de Cuisine_--there is a
> translation webbed on my site. It's a 15th century cookbook written
> by the chief cook of the Duke of Savoy, which gets it pretty close
> to Provence. I don't know of any period cookbooks that are actually
> from Provence, but I'm not very familiar with the 16th century
> sources.
It's been alleged that the Harpestrang manuscript, a version of which
has been published as "An Old Icelandic Medical Miscellany", and in
another form as "Libellus de arte coquinaria" are in fact recipes
from the South of France.
I don't know if there's any more compelling reason than the
comparatively frequent appearance of olive oil, almonds, and saffron
in a manuscript in the library of a Dane believed to have gone to
medical school in the South of France, but the theory that these
recipes are more French Riviera than Scandinavian is definitely out
there.
Adamantius
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 10:39:38 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] provencal Recipes
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Barbara Santich in "The Original Mediterranean Cuisine" includes two
recipes from a Meridionale cookbook (that's southern France, not
necessarily Provence, but doubtless close). They are for stuffed
fresh sardines (quite different from the canned version) and for
blancmange.There are apparently two versions of the original:
Anonimo Meridionale/Libro A
and
Anonimo Meridionale/Libro B
I don't recall seeing them - or maybe they're on Thomas Gloning's
site - but it's in Langue d'Oc, which is unlike Medieval French
(feels like a combo of French, Catalan, and Italian), and i can't
read it well yet.
So, do you want Santich's two recipes, or do you want modern
Provencal recipes?
--
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 12:18:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Louise Smithson <helewyse at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: provencal Recipes
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
=====
Urtatim wrote:
Barbara Santich in "The Original Mediterranean Cuisine" includes two
recipes from a Meridionale cookbook (that's southern France, not
necessarily Provence, but doubtless close). They are for stuffed
fresh sardines (quite different from the canned version) and for
blancmange.There are apparently two versions of the original:
Anonimo Meridionale/Libro A
and
Anonimo Meridionale/Libro B
I don't recall seeing them - or maybe they're on Thomas Gloning's
site - but it's in Langue d'Oc, which is unlike Medieval French
(feels like a combo of French, Catalan, and Italian), and i can't
read it well yet.
=====
OK I have both of them at home. To me they read like an Italian
dialect and I have always taken them to be southern Italian in
origin. That is generally how they are identified in the Italian
culinary sources. I know from the times I have browsed them that the
recipes are very similar to those in the martino corpus. But then
again when you look across europe there were very many dishes in
common across the royal cultures. Blancmange, losyns, white tart, to
name just a few. I'll have a look at them again tonight and see how
it pans out.
The one thing that I would say about the food in the warmer climes
is that you find a lot more salads and raw fruit turning up in the
menus.
I once did a lunch for the laurel meeting at Pennsic with Mistress
Rachaol based on a menu from August from Scappi. It was based on the
first and last courses, everything was served cold, from the ham, to
the pies, to the salads and fruit. Serving the number of people you
need to serve should certainly be doable.
Helewyse
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 01:21:37 -0700
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: provencal Recipes
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> Do you mean to say that the recipes are in Occitan? (It is related to
> French, Spanish, and Catalan, by the way.) I would like to see them.
> Also, I have heard that the early 13th century northern cookery
> book that Rudolf Grewe translated may be a translation of a Provencal
> cookbook. Any thoughts? Can anyone confirm this idea (or not)?
My memory is that Grewe thought the original was from southern
Europe, but I don't remember anything as specific as Provence.
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 06:58:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Louise Smithson <helewyse at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Introduction and a Request.
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Irene wrote:
===
* I have plans for a soteltie dessert that will require a cake
of some sort. If necessary, I can go with a recipe that isn't
really Provencale. But if anyone has any cake recipe ideas I'd
love to hear them. (Otherwise I'll probably just do some sort of
orange flavored cake, maybe with bits of candied orange peel in the
batter.)
===
Not a whole lot of cakes in period, oven usage and all that. Might
I suggest the addition of orange flower water in addition to orange
juice it will really liven the flavor up. You can get orange
flower water at most middle eastern stores.
===
* In addition to the soteltie, I'd like to offer some sort of
fruit plate or fruit salad. Any ideas?
===
Please check out the menus for the month of August taken from Scappi.
http://www.geocities.com/helewyse/augustmenus.html
The menus are incredibly fruit heavy, this isn't your Northern
European cuisine, it is hot, cold fruits are tasty (often by the 16th
century they were chilled in snow prior to service).
For example the lunch on the 16th of august there are six
different fruits served, including red (water) and white (sweet)
melons, Peeled plums served with sugar. Capon Sopramentati is a
boiled capon with a spice blend sprinkled on it. Cold ham is simply
that, cold ham, make a nice mustard.
The last course (from the sideboard) is also served cold, here you
find things like pears cooked in wine, peaches peeled and served in
wine (very tasty with a chilled lambrusco). With dinner menus you
tend to see salads: salad of mixed green with flowers, borage salad,
salad of citron sliced etc.
August at Pennsic is just as hot as August in Italy or Provencal
the same types of foods would be popular, cooling foods, light
foods.
Helewyse
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 18:57:15 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Provencal Recipes
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
There is an actual source for Provencal recipes dating from the Middle Ages.
Carole Lambert wrote her PhD using such a manuscript.
The thesis is titled--
Trois réceptaires culinaires médiévaux : Les Enseingnemenz, les Doctrine
et le Modus Édition critique et glossaire détaillé /
Carole Lambert 1989 French Book : xiv, 303 f.
[Montréal] : Université de Montréal,
Contact your library to see about ILLoan.
[Her MS was titled---
Edition d'un recueil de recettes culinaires et d'un réceptaire sur les
greffes inédits du XVe siècle (Paris, B.N. Latin 6707) /
Carole Lambert French Book vi, 92 f. [Montréal] : Université de
Montréal, 1983. Don't let the library staff at ILLoan get the two
mixed up.]
She refers to the collection of recipes as Modus and refers
to them in her chapter on Southern France that appears
in Regional Cuisines of Medieval Europe: A Book of Essays, ed.
Melitta Weiss Adamson (New York and London: Routledge, 2002), xviii +
254 pages.
That would be an excellent place to start to research the topic by the way.
She's the co-author of Fêtes gourmandes au Moyen Âge along with
Jean-Louis Flandrin; which appeared in 1998.
Johnnae llyn Lewis
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 22:45:16 -0700
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Update on Lisabetta's Feast
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> It is going to be French, and 4 removes
> The last remove will be a desserts & salad remove
>
> as said before it will be for roughly 80 people, we do have a lot of
> people on Atkins, and would like to have a balance for those who
> don't do the starches..
>
> we also have a few non red meat & non pork eaters, so I am thinking
> at least one needs to include chicken..
>
> anyone have links for period french cuisine?
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Menagier/
Menagier_Contents.html
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Du_Fait_de_Cuisine/
du_fait_de_c_contents.html
And you can find some worked out recipes at:
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/miscellany_pdf/Misc9recipes.pdf
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:33:00 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period French Cookbooks
To: Cooks within the SCA sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
betta wrote:
<<< Can anyone recommend any period french cookbooks?
I would like to spend my holiday weekend reading :) and planning.. >>>
My earlier suggestions from June 6 2006 still remain in the archives.
I suggested then-
Le Menagier comes to mind. Several recipes
already out there for that one. Try Googling menagier and recipes
for a selection. (Not all will be appropriate.)
Also check out the list of sources mentioned
here.
http://www.staff.uni-marburg.de/~gloning/cookmat.htm
A number of texts are online or can be interlibrary loaned.
Also check out the illustrations shown here
http://expositions.bnf.fr/fouquet/enimages/expo_us/index.htm
http://expositions.bnf.fr/gastro/enimages/anglais/index.htm
http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/aaccueil.htm
They may give you some ideas.
Johnnae
The relevant question today might be can you read French or do you need all
translated texts. The new edition of The Goodman of Paris is out again.
http://www.boydell.co.uk/43832224.HTM
Johnna
Johnna wrote on June 29th 2006
It seems obvious to me that you might want to start with Wheaton's
Savoring the Past
and read that volume. Then take her bibliography and look up all
the sources mentioned there and read those. Thomas has his list posted at
http://www.staff.uni-marburg.de/~gloning/cookmat.htm
You could start with that list of sources.
I think we've already mentioned that the Online French are posted here
http://www.thousandeggs.com/cookbooks.html#FRENCH
Johnnae
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:45:53 -0400
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] found by the side of the search
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
I'm once again working with the Chocolate research of someone editing
Madame de Sevigny's letters, and she's looking for background material
on the development of medicinal food theory in 17th-18th c. France.
Anyway, this article popped up as I was searching:
Medieval French food for Jewish New Year:
http://www.triviumpublishing.com/articles/medievaljewishnewyear.html
--
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 07:45:48 -0800
From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <dailleurs at liripipe.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] 1500'S French cookbooks
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Hi from Anne-Marie
When I was doing my research for my French Food in the Renaissance CA/Feudal
Gourmet, I found the same "hole". After Chiquart (which was definitely a
medieval cookbook in terms of flavorings and techniques), and until la
Varenne (SO not medieval) there was this big hole...most odd!
And yet somehow in that time, we saw the evolution of the emulsion sauce, a
switch in flavorings, souring agents, etc.
Casteau and his Ovverature de Cuisine seems to be a bridge in that way (and
thanks to Tomas Glonig for making it available to us!) with a foot in both
the medieval and the "new" styles. He's late 1500s, and more Belgian than
French, but maybe it will suit your needs?
--Anne-Marie, who thinks the trends in cooking techniques, etc is
just as much fun as the recipes themselves :)
-----Original Message-----
From: Nancy Kiel
I'm looking for any translations of French cookbooks from the 1500s. I've
got pre- and post- that century, but a distressing lack in between. Thanks
for any suggestions!
Nancy
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:18:39 -0500
From: Nancy Kiel <nancy_kiel at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] 1500'S French cookbooks
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
I did find a reference to "Le Grand Cuisinier"
edited (?) by Pierre Piroulx, but haven't found any more info about
it. I think they want more the first half of the century, so
Viandier (sp?) might suffice.
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:13:54 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] 1500'S French cookbooks
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>, Nancy Kiel
<nancy_kiel at hotmail.com>
Nancy Kiel wrote:
> I'm looking for any translations of French cookbooks from the
> 1500s. I've got pre- and post- that century, but a distressing
> lack in between. Thanks for any suggestions!
> Nancy Kiel
What happens is that there is a gap in publications in France during
the 16th century.
I can tell you that Le Ouverture has been translated into English.
*Ouverture de Cuisine* (France, 1604 - Daniel Myers, trans.)
The original source can be found at MedievalCookery.com
<http://www.medievalcookery.com/notes/ouverture.shtm>;
It was published in 1604 but Terence Scully indicates that it was actually written about 1585. In his new translation of La Varenne, Scully gives us a
helpful list of the books published between 1486 and 1615.
Another that is available of course is Nostradamus's book on confections. I did
a TI article on that book about 3 years back.
Johnnae
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:03:01 -0500
From: " Guenievre de Monmarch? " <guenievre at erminespot.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] 1500'S French cookbooks
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
I can fill in that hole just *slightly* - it's still not 1500's, but
it's at least *later* 1400's - 1466, to be exact.
http://www.erminespot.com/docs/Le%20Recueil%20de%20Riom.pdf
Guenievre
<the end>