pretzels-msg – 7/1/18
Medieval pretzels and pretzel shaped breads. References.
NOTE: See also the files: bread-msg, breadmaking-msg, fish-msg, cheese-msg, butter-msg, ovens-msg, flour-msg, jumbals-msg.
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Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:46:49 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Alphabet pretzels
Ian van Tets wrote:
> doesn't one of the recipes for jumbles recommend cutting them in Ss
> if no other letter springs conveniently to mind?
>
> Cairistiona
Funny you should mention jumbles in connection with pretzels: jumbles
are, most traditionally, tied into a knot, or at least in a loop with
overlapping ends, and they are boiled before baking, as many versions of
the pretzel are.
So, of course, are bagels, which appear originally to have been shaped
by forming a loop with overlapping ends, to be poached before baking,
usually with an egg wash. We appear to be moving in some kind of logical
loop here, as well!
Adamantius
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:17:15 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Alphabet pretzels
Sabia wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Oct 1997, Philip & Susan Troy wrote:
>
> > Funny you should mention jumbles in connection with pretzels: jumbles
> > are, most traditionally, tied into a knot, or at least in a loop with
> > overlapping ends, and they are boiled before baking, as many versions of
> > the pretzel are.
>
> Is there a good place to look for documentation of pretzels or jumbles?
As for jumbles, there's a recipe for them in one of the later medieval
English sources, like from the 15th or 16th centuries, entitled 'to make
iombols an hundred". It might be in Goud Kokery, from Curye on Inglysch,
or perhaps the Proper Newe Booke of Cokerye. I'll see if I can find it.
Don't know much about the genuine origin of pretzels, except for the
standard myth from the Larousse Gastronomique, which is almost identical
to the story given in association with the invention of the croissant,
about how some city (Vienna, Budapest, or fill in the blank with your
own home town) was under siege by Islamic invaders, and the activites of
tunnelling sappers was heard by bakers, who gave the alarm, saved the
city, and invented either pretzels or croissants in comemoration... .
Oy, as I once heard a bagel aficionado exclaim, veh!
Adamantius
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:10:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: SC - Alphabet pretzels
And it occurs to me, are pretzels period? I've never seen it mentioned.
Perhaps pictures of pretzels hanging in a shop window or carried by a
fair vender?
Yes, they are, and yes, that's how we know.
Tibor
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:57:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: SC - Alphabet pretzels
Tibor said pretzels appear in period illustration. Are they throughout
SCA period, or common in part of it, or... ???
If I recall, later period, germanic, and also figured in the heraldry of a
pretzel bakers guild.
I hate to cite the same person twice in rapid succession, but Old Marian
might have more data, if you want specifics. The arms of her business,
Battlefield Bakery (The First in Camp Followers) are a pretzel wrapped
around a sword. (Plug: she can be found at Pennsic, serving only period
food, plus sekanjabin, for lunches or breakfasts. Delicious and charming.)
Tibor
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:30:30 -0500 (EST)
From: "Christina M. Krupp" <ckrupp at zoo.uvm.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Alphabet pretzels
Pretzels are clearly illustrated in a Pieter Brueghel painting called The
Fight Between Carnival and Lent, painted in the earlier half of the
1500's. The pretzels are tied in that familiar knot-shape, but they look a
little more narrow. They're fairly large, more like the size of "soft
pretzels" and they're strung on the lance of the fellow who portrays the
incoming Lenten season. Also on the Lent side are various types of Fish.
On the carnival side are waffles (being made by an old woman crouched over
a fire with a bowl of batter, a waffle-iron, and a pile of waffles near
her).
My father, who comes from Speyer in Germany, says that the coat of arms of
that town portrays several pretzels. The last time he went over, I asked
him to find out more, particularly with regard to the earliest known date
for that heraldic depiction. He returned with no usable documentation, but
he insists that it's "common knowledge" that pretzels were made in Speyer
throughout the Middle Ages, and that the yearly pretzel-and-radish
festival goes back to "ancient days". FWIW.
- --Marieke
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:13:32 -0500 (EST)
From: "Christina M. Krupp" <ckrupp at zoo.uvm.edu>
Subject: SC - Pretzels, 1417
Somebody asked about pretzels a while ago. I mentioned the Breughel
painting, the Fight between Carnival and Lent, as being a mid-sixteenth
century source to document the existence of pretzels...
(...or, I should say, to document the existence of pretzel-shaped food,
because of course the fact that it looks like a pretzel to us, doesn't
necessarily mean that it tastes like a modern pretzel; I don't have any
information on what Breughel's pretzels are actually made from, but as a
Lenten food, it would not surprise me to find it was simple flour, water,
yeast, and perhaps a touch of salt....)
Anyway, I just found an earlier illustration. I noticed it in P. W.
Hammond's Food and Feast in Medieval England (1996 ,Sutton Publishing).
On p. 52 is an 1874 redrawing of a scene of street vendors, originally
portrayed in the Concilium Constantiense. It's from Constance, Germany,
and is dated to 1417. Above the merchant's head we see ten pretzel-shaped
items that have been hung on a horizontal rod. If you can believe the
proportions in the illustration, they seem to be the size of an adult's
head.
- -- Marieke
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 01:53:41 EST
From: korrin.daardain at juno.com (Korrin S DaArdain)
Subject: Re: SC - Bread
On Mon, 04 Jan 1999 13:57:38 -0500 Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
writes:
>These are jumbles! Of course, looking for them on demand, as it were
>(and while in a rush) I can't find a single reference to them, but
>they're a sort of hard biscuit [cookie], commonly shaped into rings,
>knots, or letters of the alphabet, and often flavored with anise. At
>least one jumble recipe (spelling varies from source to source as
>iamboles, iombles, jumbles, etc.) calls for them to be poached until
>"done", probably until they float, but I don't remember for sure, and
>then baked in an oven until dry and hard.
>Adamantius
Found the following in my collection. Enjoy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jumbles or Knot Biscuits “Jumbles a hundred” - (Scottish
Elizabethan dated from 1596 AD)
A Book of Historical Recipes by Sara Paston-Williams The National
Trust of Scotland, 1995 ISBN 0-7078-0240-7; Posted by Paul Macgregor
“Take twenty Egges and put them into a pot both the yolkes and
the white, beat them wel, then take a pound of beaten sugar and put to
them, and stirre them wel together, then put to it a quarter of a peck of
flower, and make a hard paste thereof, and then with Anniseeds moulde it
well, ane make it in little rowles beeing long, and tye them in knots,
and wet the ends in Rosewater; then put them into a pan of seething
water, but even in one waum, then take them out with a Skimmer and lay
them in a cloth to drie, this being don lay them in a tart panne, the
bottome beeing oyled, then put them into a temperat Oven for one howre,
turning them often in the Oven.
** British Measurements **
1 1/2 oz Butter; salted
4 oz Caster sugar
1 TB Rose-water
1/2 oz Caraway seeds
1 lg. Egg; beaten
8 oz Plain flour
Extra rose-water & caster sugar for glaze
Preheat the oven to 350øF / 180øC / gas mark 4. Cream the butter,
sugar and rose-water together, then mix in the caraway seeds, beaten egg
and flour to form a soft dough. Knead on a lightly floured board, then
take small walnut-sized pieces of dough and with your fingers form each
into a roll, approximately 3/4-inch in diameter and 6-inch in length.
Make into simple knots, plaits or rings and arrange on a lightly greased
baking sheet. Brush with rose-water and sprinkle with caster sugar. Bake
near the top of the oven for about 20 minutes, or until tinged with
brown. (Knots and plaits will take longer to bake than simple rings, so
don't mix shapes on a baking sheet.) Remove from the oven and cool on a
wire rack. Store in an airtight tin. Delicious when served with syllabub.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Korrin S. DaArdain
Kitchen Steward of Household Port Karr
Kingdom of An Tir in the Society for Creative Anachronism.
Korrin.DaArdain at Juno.com, (www.geocities.com/NapaValley/Vineyard/1709)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:13:58 -0500
From: "Gryphon's Moon" <kimberly at gryphonsmoon.com>
Subject: SC - Period pretzels- Better late than never...
>Morgan commented:
>> As it happened, someone else was selected, so the exercise was for naught.
>> (It did lead to period documentation for pretzels, in my wanderings,
>> however!).
>
>Could you please post this new documentation here? or send it to
>me? All I've seen was a brief discriptions of pretzels in a few period
>pictures that included street venders that was mentioned on this list
>earlier. If you've got more, especially any written description of what
>they were like or what was in them, it would be great!
>
> Stefan li Rous
Look for "Hours of Catherine of Cleves", with an introduction and
commentaries by John Plummer. This little book is a gem. The illuminations
are gorgeous! The borders around several of the main figures are somewhat
unusual-- such as the border for Saint Bartholomew Apostle-- which is
composed of pretzels and biscuits. There's no way to tell what size the
pretzels would have been, because there is no way of telling what scale is
used. I also don't know if the pretzels were soft or crunchy. But they are
definitely pretzel shaped.
Other things that can be found in various other places in the book--
-big fish eating small fish eating eels, including a picture of fishooks
-bows, crossbows, arrows and quivers
-bird cages, including some used for training birds
-coins
-beehives
-a rosary
-a brick oven
-paper gift boxes (the artist cleverly painted two of them folded,
but not complete, so you can actually figure out how to make these yourself)
-and so forth and so on...
All the stuff I mentioned above is from the margins, which also contain
plenty of flowers, angels, demons, and other more typical decorations. The
main pictures themselves are also a rich source of ideas for neat things to
make.
The manuscript dates from approximately 1440.
Now, can anyone tell me how a Book of Hours was used?
- -Margritte
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:56:31 -0800
From: "James L. Matterer" <jlmatterer at labyrinth.net>
Subject: SC - Portable Pie Oven
I have a picture of some sort of portable pie oven on the WWW at:
http://www.labs.net/dmccormick/huen/mpix/mpix39.jpg
The picture is identified as being "Street sellers, 1417, Constance,
Germany." The source is P. W. Hammond, Food & Feast in Medieval England.
I was wondering if anyone had any ideas or knowledge of:
(1) the large pretzel-like objects above the pie shop, upper right.
Would these be like our modern soft pretzel, or like a sort of cake, or
a bread? Or something entirely different? They look like they would be
fun to make for an outdoor event.
(2) the portable pie oven. Is it a complete oven, where the entire
baking process was performed, or simply some sort of warmer that
transported the food to the pie shop itself? Would a "real" oven like
this really be feasible?
Huen
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:06:06 EST
From: WOLFMOMSCA at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - jumbles or cracknels recipe needed
Bonne writes:
<< need a recipe for pretzels or cracknels or jumbles >>
Gervase Markham, The English Hous-wife, 1615
To make finer Jumbals To make Jumbals more fine and curious than the former,
and neerer to the taste of the Macaroon, take a pound of Sugar, beat it fine.
Then take as much fine wheat flowre, and mixe them together. Then take two
whites and one yolk of and Egge, half a wuarter of a pound of blanched
Almonds: then beat them very fine altogether, with half a dish of sweet
butter and a spoonfull of Rose water, and so work it with a little Cream till
it come to a very stiff paste. Then roul them forth as you please: and
hereto you shall also, if you please, adde a few dryed Anniseeds finely
rubbed, and strewed into the paste, and also Coriander seeds.
Redaction:
1/2 c. sugar
2 egg whites
1 egg yolk
1/2 c. sifted flour
4 Tbsp butter, melted and cooled to warm
1 1/2 tsp rosewater
3/4 c. blanched almonds, coarsely ground
1-2 tsp anise and/or coriander seeds
Whip sugar & egg whites until mixture is consistency of heavy cream. Add egg
yolk, flour, butter, and rosewater. Blend thoroughly. Stir in almonds. Drop
batter from a teaspoon (for round cookies) or squeeze dough through a pastry
tube into shapes onto a well-greased lightly flooured cookie sheet at least 1
1/2 inches apart. Sprinkle tops with anise and/or coriander seeds. Bake at
400 for 12 minutes, or until jumbals are golden brown around the edges.
Remove from baking sheet immediately and cool on a wire rack.
Wolfmother
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 21:49:31 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - jumbles or cracknels recipe needed
Bonne of Traquair wrote:
> I don't mind a recipe with boiling. I'm planning on serving these along
> with a pea soup flavored with ginger (Recipe#1 in "the Medieval Kitchen,
> the Cretonee of new peas we discussed last month.)
Maybe someone has the Italian ciambole recipe posted and discussed a
while back on the cooks' list? That's probably the closest to a pretzel
you're going to find. As I recall it was a yeast dough (you might cheat
with bread flour) with little or no shortening, no sugar to speak of,
and a flavoring of anise or fennel seed.
Adamantius
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 01:31:51 EST
From: Korrin S DaArdain <korrin.daardain at juno.com>
Subject: Re: SC - jumbles or cracknels recipe needed
Bonne writes:
>a recipe for pretzels or cracknels or jumbles
Jumbles or Knot Biscuits "Jumbles a hundred" - (Scottish
Elizabethan dated from 1596 AD)
A Book of Historical Recipes by Sara Paston-Williams The National
Trust of Scotland, 1995 ISBN 0-7078-0240-7; Posted by Paul Macgregor
"Take twenty Egges and put htem into a pot both the yolkes and
the white, beat them wel, then take a pound of beaten sugar and put to
them, and stirre them wel together, then put to it a quarter of a peck of
flower, and make a hard paste thereof, and then with Anniseeds moulde it
well, ane make it in little rowles beeing long, and tye them in knots,
and wet the ends in Rosewater; then put them into a pan of seething
water, but even in one waum, then take them out with a Skimmer and lay
them in a cloth to drie, this being don lay them in a tart panne, the
bottome beeing oyled, then put them into a temperat Oven for one howre,
turning them often in the Oven.
** British Measurements **
1 1/2 oz Butter; salted
4 oz Caster sugar
1 TB Rose-water
1/2 oz Caraway seeds
1 lg. Egg; beaten
8 oz Plain flour
Extra rose-water & caster sugar for glaze
Preheat the oven to 350øF / 180øC / gas mark 4. Cream the butter,
sugar and rose-water together, then mix in the caraway seeds, beaten egg
and flour to form a soft dough. Knead on a lightly floured board, then
take small walnut-sized pieces of dough and with your fingers form each
into a roll, approximately 3/4-inch in diameter and 6-inch in length.
Make into simple knots, plaits or rings and arrange on a lightly greased
baking sheet. Brush with rose-water and sprinkle with caster sugar. Bake
near the top of the oven for about 20 minutes, or until tinged with
brown. (Knots and plaits will take longer to bake than simple rings, so
don't mix shapes on a baking sheet.) Remove from the oven and cool on a
wire rack. Store in an airtight tin. Delicious when served with syllabub.
Korrin S. DaArdain
Kitchen Steward of Household Port Karr
Kingdom of An Tir in the Society for Creative Anachronism.
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 08:04:34 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - period paintings showing pancakes and waffles
Stefan li Rous wrote:
> While we can see
> what looks like pretzels in the pictures, we don't know that they
> were made the same way or taste like modern pretzels.
And, it should be noted that at least _some_ of what we see in pictures
may actually be ciambole or jumbles, and while some of those are
actually rather similar to pretzels, some are more like a brittle
cookie. But that open knot is apparently a common shape for them.
Adamantius
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 01:55:55 +0200
From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: SC - A pretzel recipe from Rumpolt I (was: New Rumpolt chapter ...)
Thanks, Stefan and Lady Brighid, for your comments. In the meantime, I
asked Gwen Cat if she could provide some translations, but she seems to
be on vacation or busy with other things. Thanks also to Harriet for the
links to online translation machines. However, it seems to me, that
these machines are NOT built to translate 16th century texts. The
results, I got, are not even a starting point. It seems to me, that one
should NOT use these machines unless one knows BOTH languages very well.
Here is a _rough_ translation of Rumpolts pretzel recipe #55 on page
169b:
55. Take white flour, only the white of eggs and some wine, sugar and
anise, prepare a dough with these ingredients, roll the dough with clean
hands such that it becomes longish and round. Make small pretzels from
it and put them into a warm oven and bake them so that you do not burn
it but that they get pretty dry. This way, they will become crisp and
good. If you like, you may take cinnamon as an ingredient for the dough,
too (but you can leave it). This dish is called Precedella.
As a side note to a question about a 15th century pretzel picture in a
recent mail:
IN the socalled Richenthal chronicle about the Constance concile, there
is a picture of a kind of pastry in the form of a pretzel. In the
Constance manuscript of this chronicle (fol. 23a), there is a piece of
text beneath the picture, where the pretzels in the picture are referred
to with the expression "br‰tschellen":
"Och waren brotbecken zu:o Costentz, die hetten ringe und claine
offenlin. Die f¸rten sy uff stoskerlin durch die stat und buchend darin
bastetten und ring und br‰tschellen und sollichs brottes. Dero warend
etlich erf¸llet mit h¸nren, etlich mit vogeln, gewu:ortz, mit gu:otter
spetzery, und etlich mit flaisch und etlich mit vischen gebachen, wie
die ainer gern wolt haben" (23a; Feger II 173b).
"br‰tschellen" is also used in the Aulendorf manuscript of this
chronicle, from the 15th century too; however, the wording is slightly
different:
"... darinn sy basteten, ring und br‰tschelen bu:ochend. Die basteten
waren ettlich mit h¸ner und flaisch gemacht ...".
The difference is, that the filling is clearly mentioned in respect to
the pies. Later on, there is another passage in the text, where these
foreign bakers and their "basteten", "ring" and "br‰tschelen" are
mentioned again.
In the printed version of this text from 1536, the word is
"bretschelen". Alas, I don't have access to the printed edition of 1488
for the moment.
Now, all these forms seem to belong to "Brezel", whose predecessors can
be traced back to Old High German; the German word is an early loan from
Latin or/and Italian sources. (I won't go into the details of the word
history here.)
Pretzels are mentioned as an ingredient in the 15th century "Bruchst¸cke
aus einem alemannischen B¸chlein von guter Speise" #16, p. 204.4 (this
text is online).
"ayr bretzen" (egg pretzels) are mentioned in a comparison in the
cookbook of Philippina Welser ("wie die ayr bretzen"; 51r=101.20), and
they are mentioned by Hans Sachs, too.
Apart from the two pretzel recipes in Rumpolt (1581), there are several
other recipes in later cookbooks.
Moriz Heyne (p. 277) says, that Pretzels originally were baked as a
devotional pastry...
More later,
T.
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 00:05:17 +0200
From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: SC - pretzel recipe from Rumpolt II
Here is a rough translation of Rumpolt's recipe for a pretzel made of
sugar and almonds:
57. Take sugar and rosewater, boil up [together], so that it becomes not
too thick, stir grated almonds into this boiled sugar, take it from the
fire when it is well dried. When you take it away, take one to three
spoons of good white pounded sugar, stir it into the almonds, make this
almond dough longish with your hands, strew white sugar onto it on the
upper and the lower side, so that nothing sticks to your hands. And when
you have made it longish, form small pretzels from it, put them into a
warm oven and bake them quite slowly, they will get a fine white color.
And they are called Precedella made of almonds. (Rumpolt 1581, fol.
169b, #57)
The pretzel recipe from the Nuremberg cookbook 1609 is sweet too
("Bretzen oder Ring von Zucker bachen").
Best, Thomas
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 16:25:00 EDT
From: Seton1355 at aol.com
Subject: SC - PRECEDELLA MADE OF ALMONDS (Rumpolt 1581, fol. 169b, #57)
I have worked this out in my head and am wondering if I am anywhere near
close to being right. (please no laughing)
Phillipa
(well, laugh behind your hands. )
PRECEDELLA MADE OF ALMONDS (Rumpolt 1581, fol. 169b, #57)
[57] Take sugar and rosewater, boil up [together], so that it becomes not
too thick, stir grated almonds into this boiled sugar, take it from the fire
when it is well dried. When you take it away, take one to three spoons of
good white pounded sugar, stir it into the almonds, make this almond dough
longish with your hands, strew white sugar onto it on the upper and the lower
side, so that nothing sticks to your hands. And when you have made it
longish, form small pretzels from it, put them into a warm oven and bake them
quite slowly, they will get a fine white color.
1 C sugar
1 tsp rosewater
2 C grated almonds
2 T powderd sugar
Heat oven to 325 F.
Boil the sugar and rosewater together until it reduces a bit.
Stir in the grated almonds.
Add the powdered sugar
Knead together.
Roll out and cut 1 " strips.
Form pretzels.
Lay pretzels out on a greased cookie sheet. Bake 30 minutes until goldern.
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 08:46:49 EDT
From: Seton1355 at aol.com
Subject: SC - ONCE AGAIN: PRECEDELLA MADE OF ALMONDS
Etaine has pointed out and rightly so, that it would be impossible to
dissolve much sugar in 1 tsp of rosewater.
Personally I think rosewater is very strong for my liking and may I now
suggest that 3/4 C water be added to help dessolve the sugar?
Phillipa
PRECEDELLA MADE OF ALMONDS (Rumpolt 1581, fol. 169b, #57)
<snip>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 17:42:48 -0400
From: "Barbara Benson" <vox8 at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Snacks
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> --On Tuesday, October 07, 2003 5:22 PM -0400 Bronwynmgn at aol.com wrote:
>> Soft pretzels. Seriously.
>
> yep... seen 'em illuminated in a border on a ms. page. can't remember
> which... all kinds of wierd things show up in borders.
>
> cailte
That would be the Hours of Catherine of Cleves. If you are into
Illuminations I highly reccomend the Manuscript which is widely available
but expensive.
The detail in the margins of one Illumination does indeed contain pretzles.
There are many other food related aspects of the text including fish,
shellfish, roasting on a spit, baking and many other interesting things.
If you are interested in Illumination as well as cooking, it is well worth
the price.
Serena da Riva
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:02:14 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] pretzels?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> i seem to remember seeing some pretzels in gothic style
> illuminations (in the borders of all things) but can't for
> the life of me place the century.
>
> can anyone help? thanks
>
> cailte
I think the woodcut to which you are referring is the the Schatzbehalter
(1491).
Bear
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:37:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" <pixel at hundred-acre-wood.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] pretzels?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Sat, 28 Aug 2004, Kathleen A Roberts wrote:
> i seem to remember seeing some pretzels in gothic style
> illuminations (in the borders of all things) but can't for
> the life of me place the century.
>
> can anyone help? thanks
>
> cailte
The Hours of Catherine of Cleves. My copy is on extended loan at the
moment, but a search should turn up the date. I think it's very late 13XX
or early to mid-14XX, but I could be wrong. It's not my main period of
study so there's less useful info hiding in my head about it.
It's also got a border that's entirely shellfish, like mussels and oysters
and suchlike, which is lifelike enough to make me slightly queasy (I will
eat mussels, but I can't look at them and I can't think of them while I
eat them, because I'm weird that way).
Ah. Google search turns up 1440.
Someday I plan to use it as a source to document the Burgundian Pretzel
Dress. Probably when I'm queen and can convince someone else to make it
for me. :-)
Margaret
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:33:14 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] pretzels?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
>> Ah. Google search turns up 1440.
>
> okay, cool. that is visual evidence. any written on when
> pretzels were introduced? i have heard the story of the
> bread scraps/monk/praying hands/kiddie treat pretzels.
>
> cailte
The word pretzel is from Middle High German (11th to 15th Centuries). The
bread itself is probably related to the cross-shaped Lenten breads made by
early Christians. Take the monkish story with a large grain of salt.
Written documentation has been very elusive.
Bear
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 19:18:58 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] pretzels?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> A deep-fried pastry somewhat similar to a pretzel shows up in Viandier
> (1395-ish and earlier). Ingredients: egg and flour. The batter is
> poured onto the surface of the hot lard, and is formed into the shape
> of a buckle with a tongue.
>
> Thorvald
It is only a similarity of shape. Pretzels are a leavened bread, rolled
into shape, glazed and baked.
Bear
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:22:36 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pretzels
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
> That was my thinking, as well, but more to the point I was curious to
> know if period pretzels were
> boiled in malted water. I'm pretty sure they were..it seems like a period
> thing to do... but I was hoping for clarification.
>
> WdG
I haven't come across any reference to boiling in malted water prior to
1600. If it is a pre-modern practice, then I think it is probably very
late period.
Bear
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:45:25 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Pretzels-- Recipe found
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
>>>
Greetings. Does anyone have access to Dutch cookery books to see if
there's a recipe for pretzels there? _Windmills in My Oven_ (A Book of
Dutch Baking), while not giving a period recipe, states: "An
eighteenth-century recipe describes a dough made from flour, egg yolks and
a moderate amount of butter, flavoured with coriander and rese-water,
shaped into pretzels, baked and dried in the oven to produce a hard
biscuit." (p. 119) The author, Gaitri Pagrach-Chandra, commented that
Dutch pretzels are much sweeter than pretzels from other countries.
Alys Katharine
<<<
I thought that I had read something about these sweeter
pretzels, so I did some checking.
Turns out Countess Alys's 18th century sweet pretzel recipe is in
Matters of Taste.
Food and Drink in 17th Century Dutch Art and Life. It's based
on that New York state art show that Devra had the opportunity to see.
I will xerox and mail Alys the sections so she can post them
later to the list.
The first recipes printed for breads and things such as pretzels in the Dutch
language are dated 1753. They were afterall trade secrets of the bakers
up until then.
Johnnae llyn Lewis
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 08:34:23 -0800
From: Susan Fox-Davis <selene at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pretzels
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Chris Stanifer wrote:
> --- Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> Are you asking if they were boiled in "malted" water? That is with an
>> M? I'd like hear why you think of that as a period thing to do. What
>> else was boiled in malted water?
>
> Well, without further resources to check, I have no reason to think it
> was a period thing to do,
> other than my own culinary instincts (assuming that the more basic
> instincts would have been
> pretty much the same). If you want a slightly sweet crust to your
> pretzel, and you're going to
> boil it anyway, you might as well use water with malt in it. Or
> honey, I suppose, though I have
> no recipes (modern or otherwise) which call for boiling pretzels in
> honey water. I do, however,
> have recipes which call for boiling them in water with malt in it.
> I'm assuming (totally
> assuming) that this may well have been the process used in the middle
> ages, and survived to this day.
You knew that someone would come up with a contradiction, didn't you?
Here is a modern recipe using malt in water and another for honey in
water for different styles of bagels:
<http://www.weekendbrewer.com/Cooking/bagels.htm>; This is part of a
brewing web site with a section of recipes using brewing supplies like
malt syrup and bread from spent grain. Thrifty and sensible all around.
More pretzel stuff:
An article about pretzel history, frequently-reprinted article but some
good period pictures:
<http://www.newyorkcarver.com/inventions5A.htm>;
One of the excerpted pictures is part of a picture from a prayer-book,
THE HOURS OF CATHERINE OF CLEVES, c. 1440, wherein a picture of St.
Bartholmew is supposed to be surrounded by pretzels. Further research
shows that this manuscript will be on display at the Getty Museum in
about a year, part of a larger exhibition of Painted Prayers: Medieval
and Renaissance Books of Hours. We must make pilgrimage!
<http://www.getty.edu/news/press/fut_exhib2005.html>;
Gode Cookery has a good etching of a portable oven and a pretzel
merchant's stall. c. 1483.
<http://www.godecookery.com/afeast/kitchens/kit010.html>;
I think I want to make one of these ovens some day! Need to get my
local pottery maven in on it of course.
Selene
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:39:54 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pretzels & bagels
To: "Cookswithin the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
As a point of interest, I went chasing the terms precedella and brezel
(Latin and German terms for pretzel). The first appears in Rumpolt (in case
no one has mentioned it).
Googling Brezel provided a link to this interesting site in German (you will
probably want to check both the German site and the translation):
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezel
The site ties the first reference to Brezel to the Council of Lepontinae in
743. Unfortunately, I haven't as yet been able to track down references to
the council, but I assume it is a rather obscure religious gathering.
Bear
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:57:08 -0800
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] bagels
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Pennsic before last (I think) we attended a
class on Italian cooking, which included a
handout which included what appears to be a bagel
recipe from Messibugio. I think the class was by
an apprentice of Master Basileus Phocas (sp?),
but am not sure. The recipe is on page 39 of my
copy of Libro Novo and is the second recipe
given. In the original, the title is:
Brazzatelle di latte, e zuccaro
It occurs to me, after reading Bear's post on
pretzels and bagels, that the word is probably
related to "pretzel" and one could interpret the
recipe as a pretzel rather than a bagel recipe.
Are pretzels boiled and then baked?
Here is the translation that was handed out, and how I made them.
Bagels of Milk and Sugar
from Messibugio, Libro Novo 1557
To make fifty bagels of four ounces each you will
take fifteen lbs of best flour, three ounces of
rose water, three pounds of milk, two pounds of
white sugar, 25 eggs, four ounces of butter, and
you will knead these things together very well.
Then you will make your bagels according to the
method you want to use, and then you will let
rise with careful attention, and after it has
risen you will boil your water, and then you will
place inside the above-mentioned bagels to cook,
and when they come to the top you will take out,
and then you will put in fresh water, and when
you have removed them from within you will put
them to cook in the oven, and if you want to put
inside anise it is a good deed.
-----------------
Here is how I did it:
(1/6 quantities)
2 1/2 lb flour--about 8c
1/2 oz rose water
1/2 lb milk--about 1 c
1/3 lb sugar=2/3 c
4 eggs
8/9 oz butter
(1 c sourdough)
Aniseeds
Note 1: The recipes says it produces fifty bagels
weighing four ounces each, but uses about 18-20
lbs of ingredients, after allowing for cooking
off the water in the milk. I concluded that it
was using a 12 ounce pound, like the troy pound
or the Islamic ratl, rather than a 16 ounce
pound. The finished bagels weighed about 7
avoirdoupois ounces, which is still a little
heavy; on my assumption it should have been 5 1/3
ounces.
Note 2: The recipe is for a leavened bread, but
no leavening is mentioned. My guess is that it is
using either sourdough or a kneading trough with
its own yeast culture. I used sourdough.
Note 3: The reasons for interpreting this as
bagels are the boiling/baking sequence, the size,
and the reference to making the bagels according
to the method you want to use, which suggests
some special shape or shapes.
Combine flour and sugar; cut in the (softened)
butter. Combine the liquid ingredients, including
the sourdough, mix, add to the dry ingredients
and knead until you have a smooth dough. Cover
with a damp towel, let rise at least nine hours.
Then divide into nine equal portions, roll each
into a cylinder about 9-10" long, join the ends
to form a torus (i.e. bagel shape). Leave it
until it has risen again, which should be another
five hours or so at room temperature (i.e. 70°
F). Your rising times may differ from this,
depending on your sourdough culture.
When the bagels have risen, fill a pot at least
five inches deep with water, if possible more.
Bring the water to a boil. Put in as many of the
bagels as you can manage without to much of a
problem of sticking. Boil until they rise to the
top, which should start happening in three or
four minutes. Make sure they have not stuck to
the bottom; if they have loosen with a spatula
(pancake turner). When each bagel floats to the
top take it out, dunk it briefly in a bowl of
water, drain, put on a cookie sheet or the like.
Bake them in a 400° oven until brown--about 20
minutes.
If you like, before putting them in to bake sprinkle on aniseed.
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 19:38:18 -0500
From: Marian Walke <marian at buttery.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] bagels
To: Cooks wihin the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
David Friedman wrote:
> It occurs to me, after reading Bear's post on pretzels and bagels, that
> the word is probably related to "pretzel" and one could interpret the
> recipe as a pretzel rather than a bagel recipe. Are pretzels boiled and
> then baked?
Traditionally, yes. But I don't know for sure if the tradition
goes back to period. I have done some research on this subject
(no surprise to those who knew me as a proprietor of Battlefield
Bakery, "Sign of the Sword and Pretzel") but have not yet found a
definite, conclusive answer. Part of the problem is that
pretzels were generally produced by professional rather than home
bakers, and they tended to keep their recipes close to the chest.
--Old Marian
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:30:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Stanifer <jugglethis at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] bagels
To: Cook within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
--- David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com> wrote:
> Pennsic before last (I think) we attended a
> clss on Italian cooking, which included a
> handout which included what appears to be a bagel
> recipe from Messibugio. I think the class was by
> an apprentice of Master Basileus Phocas (sp?),
> but am not sure. The recipe is on page 39 of my
> copy of Liro Novo and is the second recipe
> given. In the original, the title is:
>
> Brazzatelle di latte, e zuccaro
>
> It occurs to me, after reading Bear's post on
> pretzels and bagels, that the word is probably
> related to "pretzel" and one could interpret he
> recipe as a pretzel rather than a bagel recipe.
> Are pretzels boiled and then baked?
Yes, much like bagels, pretzels are first boiled and then baked. I
have seen (and use) recipes
which indicate boiling the pretzels in malted water (that is, water
with malt in it), while most
of the recipes seem to indicate boiling in plain water.
Latin 'Pretiola' or 'little reward', so called because they were
originally given to children by monks.
Italian 'Brachiola', or 'little arems', so called because they
represent arms folded in prayer
Also referred to as Bretzel.
Or, so they say....
William de Grandfort
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 08:04:47 -0500
From: Stephen Bloch <sbloch at adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] bagels
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
>> --- David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com> wrote:
>>> It occurs to me, after reading Bear's post on pretzels and bagels,
>>> that the word is probably related to "pretzel" and one could
>>> interpret the recipe as a pretzel rather than a bagel recipe. Are
>>> pretzels boiled and then baked?
William Grandfort, mka Chris Stanifer replied:
>> Yes, much like bagels, pretzels are first boiled and then baked. I
>> have seen (and use) recipes
>> which indicate boiling the pretzels in malted water (that is, water
>> with malt in it), while most
>> of the recipes seem to indicate boiling in plain water.
and Cian (John Kemker) added:
> Pretzels are also sometimes boiled in water with a bit of lye. Not
> enough to make the water seriously caustic, mind you, but a small
> amount. Some susbsitute another alkali, as the idea of eating lye
> bothers them.
From what I've read, commercial pretzels are sprayed with lye
solution before baking; the lye denatures the starch at the surface
to form the hard, glossy finish prized in such pretzels. And the
baking process allegedly neutralizes the toxicity of the lye. I
gather the "traditional" homemade equivalent is boiling in lye
solution.
I've tried it myself twice, with poor results (which might have been
because I was using my low-carb bread recipe rather than making a
batch of dough just for pretzel purposes). On one occasion at home I
boiled the pretzels for a minute or two in a fairly strong baking
soda solution, and they turned out inedibly bitter. At Pennsic last
I boiled the pretzels for a minute or two in a weak solution of
Mistress Thora's fireplace ash (which she has used as a source of lye
in the past for dyeing purposes); they weren't inedibly bitter, but
decidedly uninteresting. I'll have to try again some time with
ordinary bread dough.
--
John Elys
(the artist formerly known as mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar
ha-Shalib)
mka Stephen Bloch
sbloch at adelphi.edu
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:03:18 -0500
From: Marian Walke <marian at buttery.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks]pretzels [was bagels]
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Stephen Bloch wrote:
(regarding bagels, pretzels, and his attempts to make pretzels)
> From what I've read, commercial pretzels are sprayed with lye solution
> before baking<snip>
>
> I've tried it myself twice, with poor results <snip>
I'll have to try again some time with ordinary bread dough.
I presume you know that flour can vary greatly in protein and
gluten content, from very soft to quite hard. For pretzels and
bagels and such you want the hardest flour you can get. In
period that would have been durum (in Italy and southern France)
or northern, Russian, or Middle Eastern wheat (in northern
Europe). The English liked their native soft flour, but then
they didn't go in much for pretzels.
Nowadays, I'd use a bread flour (such as King Arthur unbleached)
if making it by hand. If you have a mixer with a dough hook you
can use the King Arthur Special for Bread Machines, which is very
high gluten.
I suspect our modern American/Canadian hard wheats (bred from the
hardest Russian/Armenian strains) are even harder than the
strongest period flours. But in any case, avoid "general
purpose" flours such as General Mills, Pillsbury, etc for this
purpose. What King Arthur calls "General Purpose" flour is
already harder than the mainstream brands. This is particularly
true in the Southern states, which have a preference for softer
flour, so the General Mills, Pillsbury, etc meant to be sold
there are formulated differently than the same brands sold in New
England.
Best of luck! This is a good time to be making pretzels -- they
are one of the symbols of Lent.
--Old Marian
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:11:31 -0500
From: Bill Fisher <liamfisher at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] bagels
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 08:04:47 -0500, Stephen Bloch <sbloch at adelphi.edu>
wrote:
> I've tried it myself twice, with poor results (which might have been
> because I was using my low-carb bread recipe rather than making a
> batch of dough just for pretzel purposes). On one occasion at home I
> boiled the pretzels for a minute or two in a fairly strong baking
> soda solution, and they turned out inedibly bitter. At Pennsic last
> I boiled the pretzels for a minute or two in a weak solution of
> Mistress Thora's fireplace ash (which she has used as a source of lye
> in the past for dyeing purposes); they weren't inedibly bitter, but
> decidedly uninteresting. I'll have to try again some time with
> ordinary bread dough.
> --
> John Elys
> From what I remember from your low-carb bread components, you
substitute a good deal of gluten proteins for starches.
Alkali solutions are bitter, and gluten is alkalai ( and acid ) soluble.
Your extra gluten is absorbing the alkalai and then it is baked into
your bread. Unless you used a lot of potash to make lye water,
your lye solution wasn't very strong and the ph wasn't very high.
Your low carb bread is an alkalai sponge :-) albiet a tasty one no
doubt.
I think this is where your taste difference is coming from.
Cadoc
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:15:28 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] bagels
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
I think you were nailed by the difference between hard and soft pretzels.
Soft pretzels use a bread dough with a water bath. Hard pretzels use a
stiffer dough suitable for making crackers and a bath with sodium hydroxide
or sodium carbonate. Both baths create a crust by gelatinizing the surface
starch. Malted water adds sugars to the surface which carmelize into a
darker brown finish. The sodium solutions produce the dark brown glossy
crust.
Commercial pretzel makers spray the formed pretzels with a 1% solution of
sodium hydroxide or sodium carbonate at about 200 degrees F then salt and
flash bake the pretzels at high temperature for about 5 minutes to get the
desired surface. Then the pretzels are baked at about 200 degrees F to dry
them out and give the proper snap. The sodium residues combine with carbon
dioxide in the oven to produce a harmless carbonate.
The heat of the process should coagulate any gluten the water or sodium
solutions come in contact with, so as to reduce the absorption of the
liquid.
If you try this again with the lye, I suggest a very stiff dough, a quick
dunk in the solution, and a hot oven (start around 500 degrees F and go up
or down as needed) for a few minutes, followed later by a slow second
bake.
Bear
> From what I've read, commercial pretzels are sprayed with lye solution
> before baking; the lye denatures the starch at the surface to form the
> hard, glossy finish prized in such pretzels. And the baking process
> allegedly neutralizes the toxicity of the lye. I gather the
> "traditional" homemade equivalent is boiling in lye solution.
> --
> John Elys
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:39:28 -0500
From: Marian Walke <marian at buttery.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Interesting picture
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Johnna Holloway wrote:
> Came across this--
> [Ulrich Richental]. Concil ium zu Constanz (Augsburg, 1483).
> A contemporary
> account of the Council of Constance (1414---18), an ecclesiastical
> gathering that had grappled with questions of unrest and reform a
> century before the Reformation. (Lessing J. Rosenwald Collection)
>
> Take a look at what is hanging on the mounted post.
> http://www.loc.gov/rr/rarebook/guide/ra035001.jpg
Yes, pretzels have been the sign of a baker for centuries.
Scandinavian countries still use a crowned pretzel to indicate a
bakery. It is one reason Battlefield Bakery described its
location at Pennsic as "Sign of the Sword and Pretzel."
--Old Marian
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 18:17:43 -0700
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period pretzel recipes?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> I'd like to make some pretzels and was wondering if anyone has
> come across any period recipes.
>
> I see them in the pictures in later period paintings, but so far
> haven't found a recipe.
>
> Grace
There is an Italian recipe for Brazzatelle, or some name close to
that, from Messibugio, Libro Novo 1557. I haven't been able to find a
translation of the word, but it looks as though it is either bagels
or pretzels.
Here is the recipe as translated by someone who thought it meant bagels:
---
Bagels of Milk and Sugar
from Messibugio, Libro Novo 1557
To make fifty bagels of four ounces each you will take fifteen lbs of
best flour, three ounces of rose water, three pounds of milk, two
pounds of white sugar, 25 eggs, four ounces of butter, and you will
knead these things together very well.
Then you will make your bagels according to the method you want to
use, and then you will let rise with careful attention, and after it
has risen you will boil your water, and then you will place inside
the above-mentioned bagels to cook, and when they come to the top you
will take out, and then you will put in fresh water, and when you
have removed them from within you will put them to cook in the oven,
and if you want to put inside anise it is a good deed.
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 20:47:15 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period pretzel recipes?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
There are some recipes in Rumpolt, but they are for sweet pretzels, rather
than the bread pretzels of which you are probably thinking. Here are couple
of translations by Thomas Gloning:
55. Take white flour, only the white of eggs and some wine, sugar and
anise, prepare a dough with these ingredients, roll the dough with clean
hands such that it becomes longish and round. Make small pretzels from
it and put them into a warm oven and bake them so that you do not burn
it but that they get pretty dry. This way, they will become crisp and
good. If you like, you may take cinnamon as an ingredient for the dough,
too (but you can leave it). This dish is called Precedella.
57. Take sugar and rosewater, boil up [together], so that it becomes not
too thick, stir grated almonds into this boiled sugar, take it from the
fire when it is well dried. When you take it away, take one to three
spoons of good white pounded sugar, stir it into the almonds, make this
almond dough longish with your hands, strew white sugar onto it on the
upper and the lower side, so that nothing sticks to your hands. And when
you have made it longish, form small pretzels from it, put them into a
warm oven and bake them quite slowly, they will get a fine white color.
And they are called Precedella made of almonds. (Rumpolt 1581, fol.
169b, #57)
For more information, take a look in the Florilegium at:
http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-BREADS/pretzels-msg.html
Bear
> I'd like to make some pretzels and was wondering if anyone has come
> across any period recipes.
>
> I see them in the pictures in later period paintings, but so far
> haven't found a recipe.
>
> Grace
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 22:25:55 -0400
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period pretzel recipes?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Terry Decker wrote:
> There are some recipes in Rumpolt, but they are for sweet pretzels, rather
> than the bread pretzels of which you are probably thinking. Here are couple
> of translations by Thomas Gloning:
>
> 55. Take white flour, only the white of eggs and some wine, sugar and
>
> anise, prepare a dough with these ingredients,
>
[snip]
I made these for a Coronation feast. Very tasty. Instead of the
traditional shape, I twisted them into the inital letters of the King's
and Queen's names.
--
Brighid ni Chiarain
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 08:41:37 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period pretzel recipes?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Peter G. Rose in her books Matters of Taste and The Sensible Cook
includes information on sweet Dutch pretzels. She includes a recipe for
Krakelingen in the book of recipes that accompanies Matters of Taste.
Rose notes that the first printed pastry and baking cookbook in the
Netherlands appeared in the mid-18th century.
Art--
http://www.albanyinstitute.org/resources/archive/dutch/dutch.htm
shows the famous Job Berckheyde painting titled The Baker which features pretzels.
http://www.worcesterart.org/Exhibitions/Past/favorite_baker.html also
features it.
Johnnae
Terry Decker wrote:
> There are some recipes in Rumpolt, but they are for sweet pretzels, rather
> than the bread pretzels of which you are probably thinking. snipped
>
> Bear
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006 07:10:37 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period pretzel recipes?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Stefan li Rous wrote:
> So, is this recipe mid-18th century? Or are you saying there is
> evidence for sweet Dutch pretzels but no recipe shows up until the
> mid-18th century?
> She doesn't say in the actual recipe section. My guess it may be
> period but the actual printed recipe is later. There are a number
> of people working on Dutch translations but I didn't find this
> recipe yesterday when I browsed their pages. I did attempt to find
> a period recipe or mention. Perhaps someone in Europe will see this
> and post something more on the topic. We have evidence that they
> appeared in Dutch paintings. Someone was making them. Or it could
> be that the earliest surviving recipes are in the first printed
> texts and nothing appears earlier in manuscripts or bakery records.
> In a later message you give:
> "Food historian Peter G. Rose, co-author of Matters of Taste, Food and
> Drink in Seventeenth-Century Dutch Art and Life"
>
> So 17th century, not mid-18th. so I'm a bit confused.
That was from their write-up in Dayton for the upcoming Rembrandt show.
The original exhibit featured Dutch paintings from US Museums. Most of
those are 17th century. It also
featured details about Dutch life in what is now New York in the 17th century.
"This unique exhibition presents fifty-six extraordinary 17^th century
Dutch paintings together for the first time ever in America, and will
only be on view at the Albany Institute of History & Art."
You have to read the descriptions and captions to determine what is
what. Certainly The Baker painting reflects an earlier style. Take a look at
http://www.albanyinstitute.org/resources/archive/dutch/dutch.painting.htm
Johnnae
Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 23:57:30 -0700
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Not bagels, pretzels
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Messibugio has a recipe which I originally encountered in a class at
Pennsic some years ago, with the title translated as "Bagels of milk
and sugar." The italian original is "Brazzatelle di latte, e
zuccaro." When we tried the recipe, it occurred to me that the
process--boil then bake--could describe either bagels or pretzels, as
would the implication of some specific (but not stated) shape. And
the name could be related to "bracelets" for bagels, or to "pretzel."
It finally occurred to me to check the etymology of "pretzel."
"[German Brezel, Pretzel, from Middle High German bremacr.gifzel,
premacr.gifzel, from Old High German brezitella, ...
I think that's close enough to establish a strong presumption that
it's a pretzel recipe.
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 10:38:29 -0700
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Not bagels, pretzels
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Brazzatelle di latte, e zuccaro
>
> sounds like a sweet, not savory
>
> is there a recipe you would be willing to share??
Pretzels of Milk and Sugar
from Messibugio, Libro Novo 1557
To make fifty pretzels of four ounces each you
will take fifteen lbs of best flour, three ounces
of rose water, three pounds of milk, two pounds
of white sugar, 25 eggs, four ounces of butter,
and you will knead these things together very
well.
Then you will make your pretzels according to the
method you want to use, and then you will let
rise with careful attention, and after it has
risen you will boil your water, and then you will
place inside the above-mentioned pretzels to
cook, and when they come to the top you will take
out, and then you will put in fresh water, and
when you have removed them from within you will
put them to cook in the oven, and if you want to
put inside anise it is a good deed.
(1/3 of the original recipe)
5 lb flour--about 16c
4/3 oz rose water
1 lb milk--about 2 c
2/3 lb sugar=4/3 c
8 eggs
16/9 oz butter
(2 c sourdough)
Aniseeds
Combine flour and sugar; cut in the (softened)
butter. Combine the liquid ingredients, including
the sourdough, mix, add to the dry ingredients
and knead until you have a smooth dough. Cover
with a damp towel, let rise at least twelve
hours. Then divide into eighteen equal portions,
roll each into a cylinder about 18 inches long,
make into a pretzel shape. (If you are
interpreting them as bagels, make each into a
cylinder about 9-10" long, join the ends to form
a bagel shape). Leave it until it has risen
again, which should be another five hours or so
at room temperature (i.e. 70? F). Your rising
times may differ from this, depending on your
sourdough culture.
When they have risen, fill a pot at least five
inches deep with water, if possible more. Bring
the water to a boil. Put in as many of the
pretzels as you can manage without too much of a
problem of sticking. Boil until they rise to the
top, which should start happening in three or
four minutes. Make sure they have not stuck to
the bottom; if they have loosen with a spatula
(pancake turner). When each floats to the top
take it out, dunk it briefly in a bowl of water,
drain, put on a cookie sheet or the like. Bake
them in a 400? oven until brown--about 20 minutes.
For half of them, I kneaded in 1 1/2 t of aniseed.
Note 1: The Italian title is Brazzatelle di
latte, e zuccaro; the technique of boiling and
then baking could be for either bagels or
pretzels. The translator thought they were bagels
and I did them that way the first time, but since
our word "pretzel" derives from old high German
"brezitella," I think it's reasonably certain
that they are actually pretzels and have modified
the translation above accordingly.
Note 2: The recipes says it produces fifty
pretzels weighing four ounces each, but uses
about 18-20 lbs of ingredients, after allowing
for cooking off the water in the milk. I
concluded that it was using a 12 ounce pound,
like the troy pound or the Islamic ratl, rather
than a 16 ounce pound. The first time I did the
recipe (interpreting the pretzels as bagels!)
they weighed about 7 avoirdoupois ounces, which
is still a little heavy; on my assumption it
should have been 5 1/3 ounces.
Note 3: The recipe is for a leavened bread, but
no leavening is mentioned. My guess is that it is
using either sourdough or a kneading trough with
its own yeast culture. I used sourdough.
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 15:50:39 -0400
From: "Mairi Ceilidh" <jjterlouw at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Not bagels, pretzels
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
With all due respect to His Grace, Master Cariadoc, I must, as I did when we
had this discussion at Pennsic two years ago, disagree with his
interpretation of the translation of this recipe. I am not the person who
taught the class referenced here, but I have translated, researched,
interpreted and prepared this recipe. I did an Art/Sci entry based on it
some years ago.
My main concern is the necessity to leave the language in which to recipe
was originally written, and go elsewhere to stretch an association of
words.
In the 1611 edition of John Florio's Italian/English dictionary, which uses
Messisbugo's Libre Novo (the book in which thich recipe is published) as a
word source, we find a reference to the word brazzetto which sends us to the
alternates spelling braccietto. Braccietto translates to "a little arm" or
"bracer". The OED tells us that a bracer is something that goes around the
arm as a protector (loosely interpreted from multiple references). The
circular form of a bagel is much more likely to match this definition than
the multi-twist form of a pretzel. Extend the search to other forms of the
word in Florio's dictionary and we find Bracciatillo, a kind of roule or
bisket bread, we call them round simnels.
It seems obvious that it is not necessary to go outside the Italian language
to discern what Messisbugo is making in this recipe. Rolls formed in a
circle. Maybe not bagels, but certainly not pretzels.
Actually, it doesn't matter what you call the things. They are good, and
well worth the effort to make. Here is my interpretation of the recipe:
Brazzatelle Di Latte, E Zuccaro
Modern Redaction (as I interpreted the translation and prepared the
recipe)
4 pounds bread flour
1 ? T. rose water
1C. milk
? C. sugar
6 large eggs
2T. butter
2 t. salt
1 T. active dry yeast
1C. warm water
Several pinches anise seeds (optional)
Dissolve yeast in 1 C. warm water and set aside.
Scald the milk in a small saucepan, add the butter and allow to melt,
add the rosewater and cool.
In a large bowl, beat the eggs well. Add the yeast and milk mixtures
and stir well.
Add about 4 cups of flour and the salt to the liquid mixture. Stir until
roughly combined; continue adding flour, about a cup at the time until it is
difficult to stir. Turn onto a floured surface and knead until the dough is
smooth and elastic, about 10 minutes, adding flour if needed.
Leave the dough to rise, punch down. Cut dough into 4 ounce pieces. Shape
each piece as you like; preferably roll into a rope about 12 inches long,
joining the ends to make a ring. Place the rolls on an oiled baking sheet
and allow to rise for 45 minutes, or until about double in size.
Preheat the oven to 400 F. Heat a large pot fill with water to a simmer.
Boil the rolls, four to six at the time (do not let them be crowded in the
pot) for about five minutes on each side, or until they are well puffed and
float. Place the boiled rolls on an oiled baking sheet, sprinkle with anise
seeds, if desired. Bake for 40 minutes, or until golden brown.
If anyone would like a copy of my documentation, which is four years old and
possibly not as detailed as it might be were I writing it today, please
contact me with your email address. It is in a word document which I can
send as an attachment.
Mairi Ceilidh
<<<<
Messibugio has a recipe which I originally encountered in a class at
Pennsic some years ago, with the title translated as "Bagels of milk
and sugar." The italian original is "Brazzatelle di latte, e
zuccaro." When we tried the recipe, it occurred to me that the
process--boil then bake--could describe either bagels or pretzels, as
would the implication of some specific (but not stated) shape. And
the name could be related to "bracelets" for bagels, or to "pretzel."
It finally occurred to me to check the etymology of "pretzel."
"[German Brezel, Pretzel, from Middle High German bremacr.gifzel,
premacr.gifzel, from Old High German brezitella, ...
I think that's close enough to establish a strong presumption that
it's a pretzel recipe.
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com >>>
Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 16:04:15 -0400
From: Gretchen Beck <grm at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Not bagels, pretzels
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
FWIW, here's what the OED says about the etymology of the word pretzel,
which encompasses both words and definitions used here. It sounds like the
argument is "what is the nearest modern equivalent" rather than "what is
this thing really":
[< German Bretzel kind of bread roll, made from a thin length of dough
twisted into a knot and coated with brine before baking (now usu.
Brezel;
Old High German as brzila, Middle High German brzel, przel, przile) <
post-classical Latin bracellus kind of cake or biscuit (12th cent.),
shortened < an unattested post-classical Latin form *brachiatellus (cf.
post-classical Latin bracidelli (plural) bakery items (in an undated
glossary)) < classical Latin brachitus, bracchitus BRACHIATE adj. (cf.
post-classical Latin braciatus (noun) kind of cake eaten on monastic
holidays (11th cent.)) + -ellus -ELLUS suffix; so called on account of the
resemblance to folded arms. Cf. Italian bracciello a kind of cake, simnel,
or biscuit (1598 in Florio).
Cf. (< post-classical Latin *brachiatellus) Old High German brzitella,
Old Occitan bressadel, brassadel kind of ring-shaped cake (1480; Occitan
bra?ad?l type of cake made with eggs, cake in the shape of a braid),
Italian bracciatello kind of ring-shaped cake (second half of the 15th
cent., also as bracciatella).
The English form with initial p- prob. represents a perception of the
unaspirated pronunciation of b- in regional German (south.).]
toodles, margaret
Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 16:40:40 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Not bagels, pretzels
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
On May 3, 2007, at 4:04 PM, Gretchen Beck wrote:
> FWIW, here's what the OED says about the etymology of the word pretzel,
> which encompasses both words and definitions used here. It sounds like the
> argument is "what is the nearest modern equivalent" rather than
> "what is this thing really":
I've been thinking along similar lines. Without doing any serious
etymological work, it seems a quite reasonable possibility (until
someone comes up with a good reason for believing otherwise) that
"pretzel" either shares common roots with, or is derived from,
brazzatelle, with perhaps some rater minor corruption. Certainly when
pronounced correctly, it seems like they'd sound quite similar.
Regarding the translation as "bagel", maybe we're placing too much
expectation on the modern Jewish type bagel, made with high-gluten
wheat flour, boiled and baked. Since we don't seem to see too much
high-gluten flour being used in period Europe (although Italy may be
an exception), isn't it possible, somewhere along the line, the
equivocation with bagels is being stressed too heavily?
I mean, there's evidence of a ring-shaped bread product in Viking-era
Scandinavia, which, as far as I know, resembles bagels only in shape
(aren't they unleavened barley?), but some translator, somewhere
along the line, was satisfied with that word being used. Maybe we
shouldn't get too caught up in the question of brazzatella and
whether they're bagels or pretzels...
Hey, to me they look like jumbles anyway ;-)
Adamantius the only-sometimes-online
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 10:29:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] bretzel
There is a depiction of a bretzel in a work written in the early 12th century
(chronicle of Ekkehard of Aura):
http://www.kulinaristik.net/images/ms373_fol95_medium.jpg
According to the site, mentioned above, the picture comes from MS 373, fol.
95v, Parker Library, Cambridge.
http://parkerweb.stanford.edu/parker/actions/thumbnail_view.do?size=basic&;ms_no=373&page=95V
E.
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 16:02:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] bretzel
Hi Emilio!
The word in English is pretzel. I kept looking at what you wrote, wondering what a bretzel was, and then it came to me.
The depiction is interesting as it doesn't quite have that regular twist in the middle.
Around the same time as the illustration you speak of, there is yet another depiction in the Hortus Deliciarum, written by Herrad of Landsberg, Abbess of Hohenburg Abbey in Alsace. You can find the colored illumination here, fourth picture down on the right side.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Herrad_of_Landsberg
There seems to be a lot of speculation as to how old pretzels are. Some versions say the fifth century A.D., other the seventh century A.D. But with two illustrations in the 12th century, we can make the assumption it is within the Middle Ages, at least.
Huette
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:24:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: wheezul at canby.com
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] bretzel, bread and lye oh my
<<< Beside the Hortus Deliciarum image that Huette mentions, there is also a 12th century illumination in Codex Stuttgart BL 20 60 f. 43v. of the Last Supper which has a bretzel on the table. This one clearly has the center twist. I'll
see if I can find a bildindex link. >>>
Followup:
Here is the link for the illumination:
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/mi02984b04a.jpg
Katherine
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:03:45 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] bretzel, bread and lye oh my
<<< Last question - is there any evidence of the period use of lye in the
making of pretzels?
Katherine >>>
IIRC, there is evidence of using lye in baking in germany late in period,
but not necessarily in the way it is used today and not necessarily on
pretzels.
Bear
Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 03:05:32 -0500
From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig at columbus.rr.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lent is coming!
<<< Do you have a period pretzel recipe?
I ask because there's an Italian recipe that I think is either
pretzels or bagels, both of which are boiled and then baked, and a
comparison with a period pretzel recipe might help me figure out
which it is.
David/Cariadoc >>>
Rumpolt has recipes that might be pretzels. or at least pretzel
shaped. And pretzel soup.
Gebackens 55. Take a fair flour/ pure egg yolks/ and a little wine/
sugar and anise/ make a dough with it/ roll it nicely long and round
with clean hands/ and make little pretzels (Bretzel) from it/ shove
in a warm oven and bake/ that you do not burn it/ but until nicely
dry/ like this they also become tender and good. You might also take
cinnamon with it or not. And one calls them Precedella.
Gebackens 57. Take sugar and rosewater/ let it boil well/ that does
not become too thick/ stir grated almonds with the boiled sugar/ and
make well thick from the fire/ and when you will take it full ways/
then take fair white ground sugar a spoon full or three/ and sprinkle
it on the almonds/ take roll them with the hand nicely long/ and
sprinkle with white sugar under and over/ that it doesn't stick to
the hands/ and when you have rolled it out long/ then make small
pretzels (Bretzel) from it/ shove them in a warm oven/ and bake them
nicely long (slow?)/ like this it will be nicely white. And one
calls it precedella made from almonds.
Suppen 23. Take pretzels/ and soften them in salt water/ put them on
a dish/ and sprinkle them with black raisins and ginger/ baste with
hot butter/ like this it is also good. Or sprinkle it with Parmesan
cheese/ and pour hot butter over it.
Ranvaig
Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 10:08:24 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lent is coming!
<<< I'd describe the first two as some kind of jumble variant, although
neither is boiled, as far as I can tell.
No it doesn't say to boil them, but they are called Bretzel and
Precedella, which also means pretzel.
Ranvaig >>>
Brezel seems to refer more to the shape than the construction.
Laugenbrezel, for example, are dipped in a lye solution before baking rather
than being boiled. Fastenbrezel are a form of boiled preztel prepared for
Lent. There are gingerbread pretzels, filled pretzels, pretzels for
sandwiches and some curious pretzels prepared for Fasching (carnival).
Limiting the term pretzel to those that are boiled before baking seems
somewhat arbitrary and possibly an error, especially when talking about the
German Brezel.
Bear
Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 20:48:07 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pretzels, was Lent is coming!
According to http://germanfood.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&;zTi=1&sdn=germanfood&cdn=food&tm=21&f=10&su=p284.13.342.ip_p830.9.342.ip_&tt=29&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.petermangold.de/schwaebische_brezeln.htm
the lye solution is 19th century in origin.
The Oxford Companion to Food in the entry on pretzels states "This
must be the foodstuff that has gathered more culinary mythology about
its origins than any, from praying hands in a 7th century Italian
monastery, to a Frankish king in Alsace, to rewards for children
learning their catechism, all of it highly debatable."
Johnnae
On Feb 19, 2012, at 8:02 PM, Sharon Palmer wrote:
<<< I believe modern pretzels, at least the ones in the King Arthur
flour book, are boiled and then baked, as are bagels--in fact, the
book treats them as variants of the same recipe. But I think those
are soft pretzels and don't know how the crunchy kind are made. >>>
Properly, pretzels are dipped in lye. that's what gives them the
deep color. I'm not sure what evidence there is for that in period.
Rumpolt uses lye for other recipes, but not baked goods. Modern home
recipes for pretzels sometimes substitute baking soda.
Ranvaig
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 06:06:46 +0000 (GMT)
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pretzels, was Lent is coming!
Hieronymus Tragus (IIRC) writes that fine baked goods, including pretzels, are boiled before baking. He doesn't mention lye, but even without it, the process produces a nice crust.
Giano
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 08:21:20 -0400
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcarrollmann at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Baker's borax from the other side.
On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 6:40 AM, Laura C. Minnick <lcm at jeffnet.org> wrote:
<<< Pretzels and bagels are shiny. What are they brushed with?
Liutgard >>>
Bagels and pretzels are boiled before baking. The boiling liquid sometimes
includes malt, baking soda, or lye to make it alkali. No brushing involved.
Brighid ni Chiarain
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 11:06:22 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Baker's borax from the other side.
What you are talking about is a Maillard reaction, where the dough is glazed
by dropping it briefly in a high pH (basic) solution. It produces the shiny
dark brown color on pretzels and pretzel bread. It's a a common glaze on a
number of German breads. The common chemicals used produce the reaction, in
order of efficiency, are lye (potassium carbonate, sodium hydroxide,
potassium hydroxide), washing soda (sodium carbonate) and baking soda
(sodium bicarbonate). Potassium hydroxide has a pH of about 14, sodium
hydroxide is around 13, baking soda comes in at 8.3, Armenian borax (borax
pentahydrate, a form of borax) clocks in around 9.5.
IIRC, all of these compound are produced by shallow water deposition and
evaporation (alkali pools), so multiple compounds are probably quite common.
Unfortunately, the process of leavening is different from the process of
glazing.
I've only experimjented with the technique a couple of times, so my empiric
knowledge is limited.
Bear
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 21:48:37 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pretzels
You might look for the Dutch sources. Try Peter Rose's books. Her one book with all the representative food art is Matters of Taste. The other is The Sensible Cook.
http://www.newnetherlandinstitute.org/files/1313/9024/6790/Rose_chapter.pdf
Johnnae
On Feb 22, 2016, at 8:03 PM, Lijsbet de Keukere <lijsbet.vandelfthout at gmail.com> wrote:
<<< Hello everyone! I have been doing some research on period pretzels. It seems as though many of the recipes provided in period texts are sweeter than we are used to now - more like a cookie or biscuit ...snipped
Edelvrouw >>>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2016 21:05:22 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pretzels
Just for fun, here's what is considered as one of the earliest
representations of a pretzel from the Hortus Deliciarum (1148 CE)
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Hortus_deliciarum#/media/File:Hortus_Deliciarum_1190.jpg
.
Bear
<the end>
