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Stefan's Florilegium


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cookbooks-msg - 5/31/10


Reviews of cookbooks with medieval recipes. Messages posted before

September 1995.


NOTE: See also the files: cookbooks2-msg, cooking-bib, cookbooks-bib, cookbooks2-bib, books-food-msg, cookbooks-SCA-msg, cb-rv-Apicius-msg, cb-novices-msg.





This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.


This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org


I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.


The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.


Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).


Thank you,

   Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                         Stefan at florilegium.org



From: perkins at msupa.pa.msu.EDU ("corpusculorum velocium perexiguorum

Date: 12 Jun 91 16:05:15 GMT


> My copy of "The Medieval Machine" by Gimpel also mentions butter as being only

> fit for the lower classes. It was, according to him, a substitute for refined

> lard...the difference being that to get lard to refine, you *killed* the beast

> whereas the poor, who couldn't afford to slaughter so much, used butter (a

> "renewable resource") more often. [...]

> (I appologize for not giving an exact quotation from "Machine". I seem to have

> lent it out again...)


Since, from her post, NicMaoilan doesn't have her copy nearby (and I do),

here is the information:


Jean Gimpel, _The_Medieval_Machine:_The_Industrial_Revolution_of_the_

Middle_Ages_, 1976.  First published in French under the title _La_Revo-

lution_Industrielle_du_Moyen_Age_. USA Publication:  Holt, Rinehart and

Winston, New York 1976 and (the paperback copy I have) Penguin Books 1977,

which has ISBN 0 14 00.4514 7 ; Lib of Cong Card Cat Num HC41.G5 1977 ; and

is categorized under the Dewey Decimal System as 330.902.


I have been looking through it and find no mention of butter vs refined

lard in the manner of NicMaoilan's comment above;  I've read through the

sections on agriculture, food & diet and skimmed the rest of the book,

to no avail... Perhaps she is remembering a quotation from another book;

or perhaps (though I doubt it) Gimpel makes this particular point in some

other section of the book  (Mining, Engineering, Environment & Pollution,

Labor Conditions, Clocks, Experimental Science, etc.).


Jeremy de Merstone       George J Perkins    perkins at msupa.pa.msu.edu

North Woods, MidRealm    East Lansing, MI    perkins at msupa (Bitnet)




From: greg at silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose))

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: cut off date

Date: 20 Mar 93 22:29:35 GMT


Greetings to all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn, posting on her husband's

account since her feed has been down the last couple of weeks, and

he's out of town for the weekend, so she can read up and then mark

everything unread to give him a chance.  <Sigh>


On the topic of cutoff dates, Gwenllian Cwmystwyth makes the admirable

point that such dates vary depending on topic.  I agree with almost

everything she said, but have one small nit to pick.  She writes,


>              Cooking - 1625.  (date is fuzzy in the ol'

> brain) Somewhere around here is the first "I'm a chef, so

> I'll muck with cooking how-to's" book.  


Ummm, well, no.  The first commonly-available-in-English, published,

post-classical cookbooks date from the 14th Century.  The cookbooks

of known authorship by cooks of important households (Taillevent,

Chiquart, Martino) tend to date from the 14th and 15th Centuries.

(_Forme of Curye_, late 14th C, pretty much belongs in this class,

save that we don't know the author's name, only that he was Richard

II's head cook.)  The frequently-used-in-the-SCA collections from

the early to mid 17th C (Hugh Platt; Kenelm Digby; etc.) by and large

are gentlemen's collections, _not_ written by major chefs.  The

primary reasons for using them, to the best of my knowledge (I don't

do much work this late), are, in the case of Platt, that it gives

information about explicitly Elizabethan foods that is hard to find

elsewhere, and, in the case of Digby, that it is by far the richest

source of information on brewing (though there is a recipe for mead,

under the name "bouchet", in the Menagier, so there is at least one

earlier source, but only with one recipe, and nowhere near as clear

as Digby's).


Not a bad cutoff, in other words, but not quite for that reason.


-- Angharad/Terry



From: branwen at cerebus.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Welsh recipes

Date: 2 Apr 93 21:35:17 GMT

Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


greg at silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose)) writes:


>>his home. One time he held a Welsh bardic feast, where all the food was

>>made using Welsh recipes, and each guest was asked to bring a poem, song,

>>or story to share.


>Where, oh where did he get the Welsh recipes?  Please?????


You'd have to ask him (John? oh, John?), but what I do when I want

Welsh recipes is use the Welsh mini-cookbook he brought me from Wales

(it's called something like "Recipes from the Bards," and is made up

of recipes of foods mentioned by Medieval Welsh bards), or, if none

of those are feasible for the moment, I use "The Little Book of Welsh

Recipes" (or whatever it's called; there's a whole series of "The Little

Book of ____ Recipes" out now) which has "traditional" Welsh recipes in



Branwen ferch Emrys

The Mists, the West

                                         Karen Williams

                                         branwen at cerebus.ras.amdahl.com



From: ferzocog at ere.umontreal.CA (Ferzoco George)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: A must-read on medieval cuisine

Date: 9 Apr 1993 20:02:04 -0400


Hi guys and gals,


Just to say "no hard feelings", I'd like to point out a book I haven't

seen mentioned in sca; forgive me if I'm repeating this info.


For all of you interested in the state of the art of research on medieval

cookery, get the book


      Carole Lambert, ed., "Du manuscrit a la table. Essais sur la

      cuisine au moyen age et repertoire des manuscrits medievaux

      contenant des recettes culinaires." Montreal and Paris: Presses

      de l'Universite de Montreal and Champion-Slatkine, 1992.


It contains 25 articles in English and French (with abstracts for each in

English and French), an incredibly useful (to scholars) list of manuscripts

containing culinary recipes, a complete bibliography, and indices of:

      titles and authors of cookery books

      Incipits of culinary texts

      titles of isolated recipes

      language of the texts

      place of production of the manuscripts


Hope this is useful. If you want more info, please don't post to sca,

but write to me directly.


Ciao, George Ferzoco    ferzocog at ere.umontreal.ca



From: TALLAN at flis.utoronto.CA (David Tallan)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: New Book on Medieval Cookery (was, I believe, Scully etc. *LONG*

Date: 25 Jun 1993 01:44:00 -0400

Organization: The Internet


Angharad/Terry asks for enough info about that book out of Montreal

that I mentioned to order it. The Following might be helpful.


Title: _Du Manuscrit a` la Table_

Editor: Carole Lambert

Publisher: Les Presses de l'Universite' de Montre'al

          2910, boul. E'douard-Montpetit, Montre'al (Qc), Canada

          H3T 1J7

          tel. (514) 343-6929, facs. (514) 343-2232

Distributer (?): gae[umlaut]tan morin e'diteur

                diffuseur exclusif des Presses de l'Universite' de


                C.P. 180, Boucherville (QC), Canada, J4B 5E6

                tel. (514) 449-7886,  facs. (514) 343-2232

ISBN: 2-7606-1564-2


and to whet your appetite:


                   TABLE DES MATIE`RES



Forward (or preface) by Carole LAMBERT





Constance B. HIEATT "Listing and Analyzing the Medieval English

Culinary Recipe Collections: a Project and its Problems"


Johanna Maria van WINTER "Une livre de cuisine ne'erlandais du XVIe



Allen J. GRIECO "From the Cookbook to the Table: a Florentine Table

and Italian Recipes of the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Centuries"


Bi SKAARUP "Sources of Medieval Cuisine in Denmark"


Danie`le ALEXANDRE-BIDON "A` la table des miniaturistes: arche'o-

iconographie des gestes et des mets"



Philip et Mary HYMAN "Les livres de cuisine et le commerce des

recettes en France au XVe et XVIe sie`cles"


Melitta WEISS-AMER "The Role of Medieval Physicians in the Spread of

Culinary Recipes and Cooking Practices"


Mary Ella MILHAM "Platina and Papal Politics"



Bruno Laurioux, "Table et hie'rarchie sociale a` la fin du Moyen A^ge"


Odile REDON "La re'glementation des banquets par les lois somptuaires

dans les villes d'Italie (XIVe - XVe sie`cles)


Agathe LAFORTUNE-MARTEL "De l'entremets culinaire aux pie`ces

monte'es d'un menu de propogande"




Barbara SANTICH "les e'le'ments distinctifs de la cuisine me'die'vale



Rudolf GREWE "Hispano-Arabic Cuisine in the Twelfth Century


Jeanne ALLARD "Nola: rupture ou continuite'?"


Noe[umlaut]l COULET "La cuisine dans la maison aixoise du XVe sie`cle



Jean-Louis FLANDRIN "Structure des menus francais et anglais aux XIVe

et XVe sie`cles


Michel BALARD "E'pices et condiments dans quelques livres de cuisine

allemands (XVe-XVIe sie`cles)




Terence SCULLY "Les saisons alimentaires du _Me'nagier de Paris_"


Carole LAMBERT "Astuces et flexibilite' des recettes culinaires

me'die'vales francaises"


Laurier TURGEON et Denis DICKNER "Contraintes et choix alimentaires

d'un groupe d'appartenance: les marins-pe^cheurs francais a' Terre-

Neuve au XVIe sie`cle"




Liliane PLOUVIER "Le <<letuaire>>, un confiture du bas Moyen A^ge"


Lucie BOLENS "Les sorbets andalous (XIe-XIIIe sie`cles) ou conjurer

la nostalgie par la douceur"


Mary HYMAN "<<Les menues choses qui ne sont pas de ne'cessite'>>: les

confitures et la table"


Bruno ROY "Trois reagards sur les aphrodisiaques"













Now doesn't that make your mouth water! If no enterprising Pennsic

merchant offers one for sale, my parents have offered (without too

much arm twisting) to get me it for my birthday. Grad student budget

or not, I cant miss this one. I've just got to start those French

lessons now...




David Tallan (tallan at flis.utoronto.ca)

or David_Tallan at magic-bbs.corp.apple.com

snail: 42 Camberwell Rd. Toronto ON M6C 3E8



From: aj406 at yfn.ysu.edu (David L. Tallan)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: appetizers recipe

Date: 30 Apr 1993 04:17:18 GMT

Organization: Youngstown State/Youngstown Free-Net


I wish I had a copy of _Early English Meals and Manners_

a.k.a. _The Babee's Book_ but I must admit (with an

abiding sense of shame) that I do not own a copy of this

fine work and must rely on the library. For those in a

similar unfortunate situation I should perhaps point out

that it was edited by Furnivall and is part of the

Early English Text Society Original Series. It was

mentioned in a TI research column not too long ago so

you can get the full citation there).


This book is a "must read" for all of those interested

in the broader topic of the medieval meal (broader than

the individual recipes, that is). It contains a number

of fifteenth and sixteenth century "books of courtesy"

that give instruction in how a meal was to be served

and describes the table manners of the time.


What does all of this have to do with appetizers, you

ask. Well, one of the works contained therein, "John

Russell's Boke of Nurture" (15th C) in the instructions

on how a meal is to be served, tells of the food to be

fetched from the pantry and placed on the table both before

and after the meal. This does not appear in the menus and,

as it was not cooked or prepared, does not appear in the

recipe collections. The items after the meal were supposed

to aid the digestion and the items before the meal were,

if I remember correctly, supposed to prepare the stomach

for what was to come. They would thus seem to qualify as



So what were these items? Here's where I really wish I had

the book in front of me. My fallible memory tells me that

grapes, cherries and soft cheese were eaten before the

meal and apples, pears and hard cheese were eaten after

the meal but I welcome correction from someone who has

possession of the book.


Yours in research of the medieval meal,

David Tallan (who, as Thomas Grozier, has a fine cook

and loves to eat)


David Tallan

aj 406  OR

tallan at flis.utoronto.ca



From: jtn at nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Cooking refs

Date: 1 Jul 93 02:38:52 GMT


Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.  It has been

suggested in email that I might publish a list of sources

for people who'd like to start work in cookery.  A complete

list of good stuff I know is available in English is

already long enough to be intimidating, and anyhow, it

suggests a kind of completeness that I can't claim.  The

following is rather more specialized, in that it centers

on 14th and 15th C English and French cuisine (about which

I know rather more than I do about other places and times).


The following are books currently in print that contain

14th and 15th C recipes either in Middle English or in

English translation of French recipes.  (Some also contain

the Middle French originals.)


Hieatt, Constance B., ed., _An Ordinance of Pottage_, Prospect

   Books (London) 1988, ISBN 0-907325-38-6.  Fifteenth C

   English material.  Middle English; includes an extensive



Hieatt, Constance B. and Sharon Butler, eds., _Curye on Inglysch_,

   Oxford University Press (London, New York, Toronto) 1985,

   ISBN 0-19-722409-1 (Early English Text Society SS8).  Fourteenth

   C English material. Middle English; includes an extensive glossary.


Scully, Terence, _Chicart's On Cookery: A fifteenth-century

   Savoyard culinary treatise_.  Peter Lang (New York and Bern)

   1986.  Translation of Chiqart's _Du Fait de Cuisine_, dated

   1420; the original French, edited by Scully, is available in

   _Vallesia_ v. 40 (1985) 101-231.


Scully, Terence, _The Viandier of Taillevent: An Edition of all

   Extant Manuscripts_, University of Ottawa Press (Ottawa), 1988,

   ISBN 0-7766-0174-1.  Manuscript dates vary; most of the material

   probably originates from the mid to late 14th C, but at least

   one of the manuscripts dates from the second half of the 13th C.


The books below are also English and French 14th and 15th Century

material, but are less readily available.  They are, however, reproduced

in Cariadoc's collection of Medieval and Renaissance cookbooks (the

Hinson translation of the Menagier is in volume 2; the rest are in

volume 1).  You may also be able to find some of them in libraries.

If you plan to go to Pennsic, you can buy Cariadoc's collections

there. If not, if you email him, he will let you know how to get

them by mail.


Austin, Thomas, ed., _Two Fifteenth-Century Cookery Books_, Early

   English Text Society OS 91 (London) 1888; reprinted for the

   EETS by Oxford University Press (London, New York, Toronto),

   1964.  Middle English; includes glossary.


Hinson, Janet, trans., Le Menagier de Paris (unpublished).


Napier, Robina, _Noble Boke of Cookry ffor a Prynce Houssolde or

   eny other Estately Houssolde_.  Elliott Stock (London) 1882.  

   English, about 1470.  Middle English; includes glossary.


Nichols, John, ed., _Ancient Cookery_, London, 1790.  Contains

   recipes from Arundel MS 344; English material, early 15th C.  

   No glossary.  (This MS is included in the Hieatt and Butler

   volume above, so if you have that, this is redundant.)


Pegge, S., _The Forme of Cury. A Roll of Ancient English Cookery_,

   London, 1780.  This is the earliest extant edition of the

   largest collections in Hieatt and Butler's _Curye on Inglysch_,

   referenced above.  The Hieatt and Butler edition is far better;

   they had access to more manuscripts to compare, and their

   scholarship is better.


Power, Eileen, trans., _The Goodman of Paris (Le Menagier de Paris,

   abridged), London, 1928.  French material, c. 1395.


There is another, newer edition of the Goodman out, for which I do

not have the information offhand.


Cariadoc's collection also includes both Kenelm Digby and Hugh Platt,

the two volumes I've been quoting from repeatedly in recent days.


Hawkwood Press has published a number of cooking related books,

including the Malinkrodt translation of Platina (but not the Latin),

as well as Epularius, both Italian, as well as several late English

works. Unfortunately, the usefulness of their editions is limited,

because they have an annoying tendency to eliminate the information

you need to do any scholarly work.  For instance, in their reprint of

the _Babee's Boke_, they retitle it (so if you don't know what you've

got, you can't look it up), _and_ omit all the front material on the

dating of the MSs.  Hence you wind up with a copy of John Russell's

Boke of Nurture, but no indication of its date.  And likewise for

the other MSs it includes.  Their version of Platina does not give

the name of the translator or the copyright information (the translation

is still under copyright); from what you get, if common sense didn't

tell you otherwise, you might think that Platina titled his work in

Latin, published it in Italy, and wrote it in -- modern -- English.




But at least they have the texts.


-- Angharad/Terry



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca


Subject: Cooking refs

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1993 19:38:12 GMT


One other work which is now quite easy to find, and so I'm surprised

  I haven't seen it mentioned, is Maxime de la Falaise's _Seven Centuries

of English Cooking_. (Barnes and Noble Press, 1992, ISBN 1-56619-112-2)


de la Falaise's book covers from the 14th - 20th centuries.  The first

100 or so pages of the book (which is sitting not six inches from my

keyboard as I type this) are devoted to the 14th, 15th, 16th, and early

17th centuries.  The author includes both the references and original

form of each recipe, as well as her modern English translation and an

explanation of the social and/or cultural relevance of each.


  I *have* used this to make dinner for friends and family, actually.

The onion-almond soup got my roommate and I through the worst of the

rainy season, the tri-color potato soup is simmering right now for my

luncheon date in an hour, and the Roast Chicken with cold spiced

chicken relish and onion tarts was an interesting way to cook dinner

for my mother and her fiancee last week (proving to them both that the

money my family spent on my undergraduate degree in Medieval History

was NOT wasted...)


As you can guess by the publisher's name, this book is available

through Barnes and Noble bookstore.  I got it during an unadvertised

sale clearance on Medieval and Renaissance reference texts for all

of about 8 bucks.


HIGHLY recommended, in fact, and if any of the recipes I've mentioned

above has set mouths to watering, let me know and I'll send them to

you.  :)





Newsgroups: rec.org.sca


Subject: Test Message/Lenten Feast

Organization: HoloNet National Internet Access System: 510-704-1058/modem

Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 08:19:46 GMT


BA>     I am currently planning a Lenten Feast for an upcoming event, and

BA>     would like to know if anyone knows of primary sources for common

BA>     Lenten practices.  I have several recipes, but would be interested in

BA>     finding out more about what I can serve.  I wish to be as accurate as

BA>     possible - no meat, dairy, etc.  Of course, I have heard of the

BA>     elusive barnacle goose, and am expecting him to make an appearance for

BA>     the feast.  Please, if anyone can assist, please e-mail me directly at


   It's not a primary source, but the best one I can think of that

discusses Lenten practices and foods is _Fasts and Feasts_. Sorry, I'm

at work and don't recall the author. ILL should get it for you easily,

if your library doesn't have it.


Sir Aylwin.



From: jtn at nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Some cookery sources

Date: 12 Nov 1993 22:17:31 GMT


Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.


Gawaine Kilgore asks,


>You state that you have collected over 400 recipes.  Could you share

>these, or their sources, in a FAQ or on an FTP site, perchance?


Most of the recipes themselves I don't have in an on-line format.  (I

have a spread sheet that lists ingredients, but that doesn't include

any of the text of the recipes, so it doesn't tell you what to do with

them.) I do have a little over a hundred in a macintosh word processing

format, but not readily FTPable.


What I can provide is the bibliographic information on the sources I'm

working from, and some info on how to get them.


A lot of my work starts from Cariadoc's collection of period cookbooks,

which you can get by contacting him.  His collection includes a number

of sources that are not only out of print but no longer in copyright.

Some of these can be found in libraries, but some are relatively difficult

to get your hands on.

The more relevant volume in Cariadoc's collection to what I do include:


   Austin, Thomas, ed., _Two Fifteenth-Century Cookery Books_, Early

       English Text Society OS 91 (London) 1888; reprinted for the EETS

       by Oxford University Press (London, New York, Toronto), 1964.


   Nichols, John, ed., _Ancient Cookery_, London, 1790.  Contains

      recipes from Arundel MS 344; English material, early 15th C.


   Power, Eileen, trans., _The Goodman of Paris_ (_Le Menagier de

      Paris_, abridged), London, 1928.  French material, c. 1395.


   Napier, Mrs. Alexander, ed., _A Noble Boke off Cookry ffor a

      Prynce Houssolde_, London, 1882.


   Frere, Catherine Frances, ed., _A Proper Newe Booke of Cokerie_,

      Cambridge 1913.


The Frere is dated to 1562; I rarely dabble in the 16th C.  Cariadoc also

distributes Hugh Platt (1608) and Kennelm Digby (mid 17th C), and several



The Power translation of the Menagier is only partial.  Cariadoc also

distributes a translation by Janet Hinson.  It is in some ways less

useful (it does not have the critical apparatus of even the earliest of

the EETS works), but it has the strong virtue of reproducing all the



The collection also contains the Pegge edition of _Forme of Curye_,

but I no longer use that.  Instead, I use the far more accurate (and

complete) edition that is included, along with several other 14th C

collections, in:


   Hieatt, Constance B. and Sharon Butler, eds, _Curye on Inglysch_,

      published for the Early English Text Society by Oxford University

      Press (London, New York, Toronto), 1985.  ISBN 0-19-722409-1

You can get this by ordering it from just about any bookstore.  (I

actually got it by phoning 1-800-555-1212, asking for the phone

number of Oxford University Press, and ordering by phone.  They

take MasterCard and Visa.)


Constance Hieatt also has an edition of a 15th C cookbook:


   Hieatt, Constance B., ed., _An Ordinance of Pottage, Prospect

      Books Ltd.  (London), 1988.  ISBN 0 907325 38 6.

The inside cover of _An Ordinance of Pottage_ claims that it is

distributed in the US by the University Press of Virginia in

Charlottesville. It isn't; the deal never went through.  The

American distributer is (or at least used to be) Books International,

which has an 800 number that I also got by dialing 1-800-555-1212.  

They also take MasterCard and Visa.  


For 13th C, there is a collection (with a 14th C one) published in

a journal that should be available in any research library:


   Hieatt, Constance B. and Robin F. Jones, Two Anglo-Norman

      Culinary Collections Edited from British Library Manuscripts

      Additional 32085 and Royal 12.C.xii, _Speculum_ vol. 61 # 4

      (1986) 859-882.


For French cookery at about the same period, I rely heavily on


   Scully, Terence, ed., _The Viandier of Taillevent_, University

      of Ottawa Press (Ottawa), 1988.  ISBN 0 7766 017401.


I also have Elizabeth of Dendermonde's translation of Chiquart's _Du

Fait du Cuisine_ from Cariadoc.  If all you want is the recipes, it's

great. I do intend to buy Scully's edition of that too, though, when

funds permit.  Scully knows not only the language and the cookery, but

also darned near every French medieval cookbook and related document.  

He's worth it for the footnotes alone.  The reference on that is


   Scully, Terence, ed., _Chiquarts On Cookery: a fifteenth-century

      Savoyard culinary treatise_.  Peter Lang (New York and Bern),



Platina's _De Honesta Voluptate_ and Epulario are both Italian basics.

Falconwood Press publishes both, but has a long and disreputable history of

flagrant violation of copyright, so I am disinclined to suggest that anyone

buy anything from them.  


-- Angharad/Terry



From: jlv at halcyon.com (Vifian(s))

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Feast Menus

Date: 18 Nov 1993 15:57:12 -0800

Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc.


0005290822 at mcimail.COM (Robert A. Goff) writes:


>Jean Louis, do you know of an

>edition of Fettiplace that I might find through my local library?


>Brother Crimthann

>rgoff at mcimail.com


Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt Book (Elizabethan Country Cooking)  Spurling,

Hilary, Elisabeth Sifton Books - Viking Penquin Inc., 1986,  ISBN



Jean Louis de Chambertin

jlv at halcyon.com



From: jlv at halcyon.com (Vifian(s))

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: turkeys

Date: 29 Nov 1993 16:48:57 -0800

Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc.


Dining With William Shakespeare, 1976 (OP?), Lorwin, Madge, Atheneum,

isbn 0-689-10732-5 has a turkey recipe which is redacted from The

Accomplisht Cook, Robert May, 1660.  Most? of the original is given.


Jean Louis de Chambertin

jlv at halcyon.com



From: jtn at nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Cooking booklets

Date: 19 Jan 1994 18:59:52 GMT


Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.


Having been deluged with individual requests for this information, I

am breaking down and posting it.  Anyone not interested in cooking

booklets, hit "n" now (or do whatever your system makes you do to

get to the next article without reading this one).


There are two booklets.  The "little book" is called "A Beginner's

Book of Meal Planning for the Current Middle Ages", and talks about

just about everything that is _not_ recipes and making them taste

good. It's 26 single-spaced (and I'm afraid rather teeny type; I

was trying to keep physical size down; but the copy is clear) pages

of information (plus cover, title pg., contents), in what I think of

as standard Kingdom newsletter format (though Atlantia's newsletter,

alas, has abandoned it), i.e., 8.5x11 pages folded and stapled

lengthwise. The "big book" is called "A Beginner's Book of Receipts

for the Current Middle Ages: Twenty-Five Recipes from England and

France in the 14th and 15th Centuries", and covers main dishes (beef

and veal, chicken, pork), sauces, soups, and sweets, with an

introduction and some final material.  Each recipe includes a full

reference, the original text, a conservative translation into modern

English, and then a step-by-step almost-idiot-proof set of directions

with amounts, etc., and any necessary notes.  It's 65 pages, same



The price for the little book is $3 plus shipping, for the big one

$5 plus shipping.  Sadly, I have no clear notion what shipping should

cost. Say $1?  I also rather doubt that my bank will know what to make

of foreign currency, though I can always give it a try.


My snail-mail address is:


      Terry Nutter

      2511 Manchester St.

      Blacksburg, VA 24060


If you have questions this doesn't answer, let me know.



-- Angharad/Terry



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Cooking booklets

From: schuldy at zariski.harvard.edu (Mark Schuldenfrei)

Date: 21 Jan 94 23:59:13 EST


Angharad posted purchasing information about her books.  Herewith follows an

unsolicited mini-review.


"A Beginner's Book of Meal Planning for the Current Middle Ages"

This is a very useful book on cooking meals in large quantity, and could

just as easily be used for church groups or other non-profits.  It is

accurate, insightful, and has many useful hints. I would recommend

supplementing this book with a quick read of _Kitchen_Science_ and

_How_To_Repair_Food_ if you wanted to be an expert, but if you merely want

to be competent in the feast kitchen the very first time you try, I highly

recommend this book.


"A Beginner's Book of Receipts or the Current Middle Ages: Twenty-Five

Recipes from England and France in the 14th and 15th Centuries"


A very nice collection of useful recipes, with redactions and sources

listed. Some of the local gentles had a great deal of fun comparing some of

the resulting redactions with our own. None of the differences were

unreasonable, yet sometimes the end result was recipes of wildly different

textures, flavors or sometimes ingredients.  Nevertheless, I would again

recommend this as a source: you can get perfectly fine, very authentic and

quite tasty results from this pamphlet.  If you are serious about

redactions, it is a nice place to start, but may make you unecessarily

complacent about checking your assumptions.


Certainly, if you are never going to perform your own redaction work, this

is a fine book. If you are going to perform your own redactions, I would

suggest doing some of your own experimentation and education before reading

Angharad's book: You might find yourself produce quite different, yet

equally plausible results. This is no slight on Angharad: redaction is an

inexact art, influenced by past experience and personal tastes.


      Tibor (And both well worth the price, I'm very glad to have them)


Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy at math.harvard.edu)



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: pat at cygnus.com (Patricia McGregor)

Subject: Re: Medieval cookbooks

Summary: a list of medieval cookbooks

Keywords: food, cookbooks, sources

Organization: Cygnus Support, Mountain View, CA

Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 00:40:43 GMT


This article came from the rec.foods.historic list. I know there's a

significant overlap of those of us who do cooking and redacting in the

SCA and that group, but I couldn't resist reposting it.


siobhan medhbh o'roarke


Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann at delphi.com> wrote:

>    OK, here it is, by popular demand.  This list is guaranteed to be

>incomplete. I am an amateur medieval cook, not an expert.  These are simply

>some titles that I have on my shelf or have heard recommended, and some

>sources for buying them.   Which ones are of interest to you depends on a

>number of factors.  How comfortable are you with archaic English?  Can you

>cook from recipes that give ingredients, but no quantities or cooking times?

>    If you can read Chaucer in the original (with the help of a glossary),

>than you can deal with the 14th and 15th century sources.  If you can read

>Shakespeare, you should be ok with the 16th century ones.

>    Most medieval recipes sound like your grandmother dictated them: "take

>some of this and a little of that, mix them together and bake until done."

> (Actually, a common phrase is "until it be enough" which I find amusing.)

>If you're not comfortable with that kind of unstructured recipe, then you

>might want to check out the cookbooks which contain redacted recipes in

>addition to the originals.

>Hieatt, Constance and Sharon Butler, _Pleyn Delit: Medieval Cookery for

>Modern Cooks_, University of Toronto Press, 1976.

>    Hieatt is a scholar and knows her stuff.  The recipes come from various

>14th & 15th cent. sources.  Each recipe gives the original wording, and a

>modern redaction with quantities, etc.  The ones I've cooked have been

>pretty tasty.

>Hieatt, Constance, and Sharon Butler, eds., _Curye on Inglysche: English

>Culinary Manuscripts of the Fourteenth Century_  Oxford Univ. Press.

>Original recipes, extensive notes and glossary.

>Renfrow, Cindy, _Take a Thousand Eggs or More_.  2 vol.  privately

>published. These are transcribed from _Two Fifteenth Century Cookbooks_ --

>a collection of recipe manuscripts.  Vol. 1 contains about 100 recipes:

>original recipes, modern translation, and redaction provided.  Vol. 2 has

>more recipes and translations, but no redactions.  There is a glossary, and

>intructions for attempting your own redactions.

>A BOOK TO AVOID: Cosman, Madeleine Pelner, _Fabulous Feasts_.  The first

>half of the book has some good info. on food history, laws, folklore and

>techniques in medieval England, but the recipes are inauthentic redactions

>WITHOUT the originals, and do not identify the source.

>Scully, Terence, ed., _Viander of Taillevent_.  University of Ottawa Press.

>Translation of classic 14th cent. French cookbook.  I don't own this one

>myself, but people I respect say it's good.  Some adapted recipes.

>The above books and others are available from:

>    Poison Pen Press

>    627 East 8th St.

>    Brooklyn, NY  11218

>Another good source of reprinted historic cookbooks is:

>    Falconwood Press

>    193 Colonie St.

>    Albany, NY  12210-2501

>They have a nice selection of early 17th century English cookbooks, spiral

>bound and fairly inexpensive.  Titles include:

>_A True Gentlewoman's Delight_ (1653)

>_The Good Huswife's Jewell_ (1596)

>_On Honest Indulgence and Health_ (1475) Italian, trans. into English.

>I hope this is helpful.  If you have any questions, feel free to

>e-mail me, though I am *FAR* from being an expert.  I am just starting to

>feel comfortable about adapting recipes myself, rather than using other

>people's redactions.  It's a lot of fun.  You should incidently, be able to

>get most of the above through inter-library loan, though possibly not the

>Renfrow books.

>Good luck!

> at   Robin Carroll-Mann   |  "Mostly harmless"                     at

> at   RCMANN at DELPHI.COM    |  The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy  at



From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pre-1600 flower dishes

Date: 12 Mar 1994 11:58:10 -0500

Organization: MIT LCS guest machine


Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.  Again, I'm posting from Hossein's

account (mine being uncommunicative), but speaking only for myself.


Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glavryn responded to Michael McKay:


>>    A friend of mine is planning on hosting a feast in July called

>>the "Feast of Flowers" and she wants me to cater it with pre-1600

>>dishes that employ flowers. Can any of you give me some recipes or sources?

>>Thank you.

>Look for a recipie called "Sambocade". In its original form (many later

>corrupted versions appear) it was a fritter of elder flowers.


The scholarship I have seen agrees as to the origin, but no actual recipe

I have seen calls for elder flowers.  I'm not sure that such a recipe is

known, at least in English.  (Elder flowers are pretty much unique to

Anglo-Norman cuisine, at least partly because of where they grow.)


Before plunging into a list of recipes, a couple of words of caution.


I see essentially three difficulties with preparing period dishes of which

flowers are a major ingredient.  First, some of these are simply not available,

at least in places I have lived.  After roses, the most common flowers in

early English cuisine are hawthorne blossoms and elder blossoms.  Right.  Not

available at any price, at any time of year, in the quantities one would need

for even quite a small feast.


Second, many of these, while available, are most readily available in

radically different forms.  "Rose" does _not_ mean "American Beauty": what we

have around now are mostly hybrid tea roses.  It is possible to get eglantine,

for instance, but it is not easy.  I have no idea what sort of violet was

native to England, but I'm fair to middling sure it wasn't African violets,

and I wouldn't want to bet it's the kind that show up wild in my yard in

Virginia. My point is not so much one of authenticity as that different

members of the a botanical family may differ wildly both in flavor and

in edibility.  (Nightshade and tomatoes are related.  The "berries" of the

latter are fine to eat....)


Third, unless you are growing the flowers yourself, you want to be _very_

careful about what comes with them.  Flowers that are grown commercially

for sale as pretty blossoms have frequently been treated with lots of

chemicals that it is decidedly unwise to eat.


With those provisos:


Recipes calling for flowers are reasonably common in Anglo-Norman cuisine.

Recipes for rosee, spinee, and suade, which are sort of porridges of almond

milk with roses, hawthorn blossoms, or elder flowers respectively, occur in

the 13th C Anglo-Norman collection edited by Constance Hieatt in _Speculum_

(1986) and in all four of the complete MSs from the 14th C included in

_Curye on Inglysch_ (including Forme of Curye), sometimes twice in a single

collection (_Diuersa Cibaria_ has two of each).  The recipe that Lady Tangwystl

included is a 15th C version of one of these dishes, which apparently were

both popular and persistent in the cuisine.  They occur early in collections,

indicating that they tended to be served in the first course, and were viewed

as hearty staples rather than delicacies (!).


In addition, Utilis Coquinaria has recipes for primerole, pyany, heppee and

vyolet, which call for primroses, peony blossoms and seeds, roses and rose

hips, and violets respectively.  Diuersa Servicia has a fritters recipe that

calls for apple blossoms.


All of these are available in _Curye on Ignlysch_, Constance B. Hieatt and

Sharon Butler, editors, Oxford University Press (1985) ISBN 0-19-722409-1.


If one is willing to go very slightly out of period (1609, if I recall the

date correctly), there are several recipes for preserving and candying flower

blossoms in Hugh Platt's _Delights for Ladies_.  I got my copy of Hugh Platt

from Cariadoc, in the first volume of his collection of medieval cookbooks.


Good luck.

-- Angharad/Terry



From: DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pre-1600 flower dishes

Date: 13 Mar 1994 04:11:10 GMT

Organization: Cornell Law School


Angharad writes:


> If one is willing to go very slightly out of period (1609, if I recall the

> date correctly), there are several recipes for preserving and candying flower

> blossoms in Hugh Platt's _Delights for Ladies_.


I believe that is the date of the 2nd edition of Hugh Platt. If I remember

correctly, the first edition is just pre 1600. Of course, I don't have the

first edition--but if the recipes are in it, they are (I think) period.


Platina/Martino/Epulario (three cookbooks with a lot of overlap, obviously

related) have some flower dishes too.



DDF2 at Cornell.Edu



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: ua923 at freenet.Victoria.BC.CA (Mark Shier)

Subject: Re: Pre-1600 flower dishes

Organization: Camosun College, Victoria, B.C.

Date: Sun, 13 Mar 1994 03:09:51 GMT


There are a number of early flower recipes to be found in

"An Ordinance of Pottage" by Constance Hieatt. Prospect Books 1988.

They are from a 15C English manuscript. Included is recipe 108,

   "Samacays", an elderflower fritter, and number 75, "Floreye",

a chicken pate with roses. Dried elderflowers can be found in

some health-food stores.

This is another of Constance Hieatt's excellent works.

                        Mark der Gaukler



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: marian at world.std.com (marian walke)

Subject: Re: Fabulous Feasts (was: Re: veggie feasts)

Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA

Date: Thu, 7 Apr 1994 06:54:26 GMT


For a long time I thought, well the recipes in FF are bogus, but at least

there are all those great illustrations....


Then one day I started reading the small print next to the illos and

realized some of THEM are bogus, too - attributed to a 19th C. forger!


Really: Plein Delyte, Curye on Inglysch, etc - anything that gives you

all the ORIGINAL recipes so that you can judge the reconstructions -

these are the books to go with if you need other people's versions of

Medieval cookery (and Dining with Will Shakespeare, if you can find it,

for 16/17th C recipes).  


If you're willing to dispense with the

reconstructions, Duke Cariodoc's cookbook collections are the best

because they have more recipes in one volume than anyone else's. If you

can't get those, try Falconwood Press, 1983 Colonic Street, Albany NY

12210-2501; they've put out quite a few (mostly 16th/17th C) cookery

books (retyped from original publications, usually).  They'll send you a

catalogue if you send an SASE.  


--Old Marian

(marian at world.std.com)



From: sbloch at ms.uky.edu (Stephen Bloch)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,rec.food.historic

Subject: Re: Translating Spanish cookbook

Date: 9 Apr 1994 15:39:11 -0400

Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences


I'm cross-posting this to rec.food.historic, and will therefore refer to

people both by modern and by SCA names.


Robin Carroll-Mann  <rcmann at delphi.com> wrote:

>    I've found a modern reprint of a 16th century Spanish cookbook

>which I beieve has not been translated into English.  It is the

>_Libro de Guisados, Manjares y Potajes Intitulado Libro de Cozina_

>by Ruperto de Nola, originally published in the Catalan language

>around 1520.  I have a reprint of the 1529 Castillian edition...


The Catalan version, I believe, is the _Llibre del Coch_.  I haven't seen

it, but my lady has a copy.  We're working more on the earlier Catalan

_Llibre de Sent Sovi_; I'd like to hear from other people working on it.


There are at least two people here in Lexington working on the book you

mention; I think they have the Castilian version and are trying to ILL the

Catalan version for comparison.  One is Elbe Cheek (Osric Umbra, in the

SCA) and the other is Basilicus Phocas, in the SCA; I don't remember his

real name.  I don't know whether either has email; I'll check when next I

see them.


>    This is an ambitious project, and I would love to hear from

>anyone who has done something similar.  Things I would like to

>discuss include: how literal should a translation be? which terms

>should be left in Spanish? when are explanatory footnotes needed? etc.


Around 1985 David Friedman (Cariadoc) announced in newsletters that he

was looking for translators to help with a 13th-century Arabo-Andalusian

cookbook, which had been edited and translated into Spanish some twenty

years ago by a guy named Huici Miranda.  I was among the volunteers, to

whom David sent photocopies of twenty-page sections of Spanish text (to

make sure different people weren't duplicating effort on the same section

while completely missing other sections).  Over the course of several

years, I and perhaps a dozen others finished the whole book, and then one

of us, Elise Fleming (Alys Katharine) took the job of proofreading and

editing the whole thing for some semblance of consistency.  Shortly after

she finished, David persuaded his friend Charles Perry, who not only is

interested in historical cookery but reads Arabic, to check the whole

thing against Miranda's published Arabic edition.  He corrected numerous

errors that had crept into the two-stage translation, and that version is

now included in Volume II of David's _Collection of Medieval and

Renaissance Cookbooks_.  (David may have corrections to this account.)


I don't think we ever came up with an explicit statement of how literal a

translation should be, and what should be left in Spanish (or, in our case,

Arabic!) But in the end, we produced a reasonably consistent and readable

result. I believe we all felt free to rearrange word order and sentence

structure, introduce and delete articles, to get properly-flowing English

sentences and paragraphs.  I, at least, on encountering an ambiguity in

the Spanish, tried to reorder things to give the same ambiguity in English.

Sometimes there was an ambiguity that could be partially resolved only by

gender-agreement in the Spanish; I indicated this in footnotes, and I think

Charles Perry fixed these ambiguities.


We kept most of the names of dishes in Arabic or Spanish, to avoid confusing

them with modern ones.  There was something called "isfunj" in Arabic,

which Miranda translated as "esponja" and I further translated as "sponge

cake". However, the recipe had no resemblance to a sponge cake, so it is

back to "isfunj" in the published version.  Similarly, the Arabic "mujabbana"

became the cognate "almojabana" in Spanish, then "cheesecake" in English

(based on Miranda's footnote about the etymology of "almojabana"); this was

misleading, so it is back to "mujabbana" in the published version.


                        mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib

                              Stephen Bloch

                            sbloch at s.ms.uky.edu



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)

Subject: Re: Arabian event questions

Organization: University of Chicago

Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 04:14:49 GMT


There are three period Islamic cookbooks that I know of available in

English translations. Al-Baghdadi is 13th century middle eastern, Ibn

Al-Mubarrad is 15th century middle eastern, Manuscrito Anonimo is

13th century Andalusian. The first two are included in Volume I of

the cookbook collection I sell; the third is in Volume II. Quite a

lot of worked out period Islamic recipes are in the Miscellany, a

book my lady wife and I wrote and self publish; someone in your area

may have a copy. Incidentally, Manuscrito Anonimo also has a

discussion of what a feast should be like. There is also a book

called (I think) _From a Caliph's Kitchen_ that has worked out period

islamic recipes.


Feel free to correspond by EMail if you wish.



DDFR at Midway.UChicago.Edu



From: fp458 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Elise A. Fleming)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: "remove" vs. "course" documentation

Date: 29 Nov 1994 11:33:03 GMT

Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)


Greetings from a fussy Dame.  I found the documentation about

"remove" and "course" after my posting.  In _The Appetite and the

Eye_, edited by C. Anne Wilson, Edinburgh University Press, 1991,

Ms. Wilson writes in the chapter "Ideal Meals and their Menus":


"...There is even the recently adopted usage of the 'remove' (a

dish to be succeeded by another).  The circle at the head of the

first-course table is inscribed: 'A pottage, for a remove to be

replaced on the diagrammatic table-settings by one of the new thin-

ner soups) was served out to everyone present, and its large

serving-bowl or tureen was then removed.  In its place was set the

item of meat or fish written in the lower half of the circle.  

The soup and its 'remove' or replacement marked the first step

towards a different division of the courses which led eventually,

after the coming of Russian service early in the nineteenth cen-

tury, to the usual sequence of courses at today's formal dinners."


The book in which the table diagram appeared is the 1708 second

edition of Henry Howard's _England's Newest Way in All Sorts of

Cookery, Pastry, and All Pickles that are Fit to be Used_.


If you are reading this post and are interested in attempting more

medieval or Elizabethan re-creations of dining, _The Appetite and

the Eye_ will give you some fascinating information.  Four of the

seven chapters pertain to "our" period and this fifth one contaied

the above information.  ISBN # is 0 7486 0101 5.  Happy hunting!


Alys Katharine/Elise



From: epsteine at spot.Colorado.EDU (Emily Epstein)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Period cookbooks not published as books (was: Period plants)

Date: 13 Jan 95 00:16:54 GMT

Organization: University of Colorado at Boulder


Greetings from Alix Mont de fer.


Angharad gave citations for Curye on Inglysch and Two Anglo-Norman Culinary

Collections. For those who're interested, I dipped into my files for a

slightly more complete list of cookbooks that were published in a periodical

or as part of some other kind of collection. Even if you're local library

doesn't have them, you should be able to get them via interlibrary loan.

In the case of periodicals, they'll often send a photocopy instead of the

bound volume. You usually don't have to return the photocopy, which will save

you some expense and a trip to Kinko's. Copy centers such as Kinko's will do

an inexpensive spiral binding, however, which I find very useful.


I apologize for some of the quick and dirty abbreviations and spacing. I

lifted this from a working handlist. I hope you can find it of some use.


Alix Mont de fer

epsteine at spot.colorado.edu



Anonimo Meridionale. Due libri di cucina. ed.Ingemar Bostrom.

Stockholm : Almqvist & Wiksell, 1985.


Arberry, A.J. "A Baghdad cookery-book", Islamic Culture 13:1 Jan

   1939 p.21-47 & 13:2 Apr. 1939 p.189-214.  


Birlinger, Anton. "Kalender und Kochbuchlein aus Tegernsee",

   Germania. Vierteljahresschrift fur deutsche Alterthumskunde,

   9 (1864) pp.132-207.


Eberhard von Landshut. "Das Kochbuch des Eberhard von Landshut

   (erste Halfe des 15 Jhs." ed. Anita Feyl. Ostbairischen

   Grenzmarken, 5 (1961) pp.352-366.


Grewe, Rudolf. "An Early  XIII Century Northern-European

   Cookbook" A Conference on Current Research in Culinary

   History: Sources, Topics and Methods: Proceedings. (Culinary

   Historians of Boston, 1986) p.27-45.


Hieatt, Constance B., and Robin F. Jones. "Two Anglo-Norman

   culinary collections edited from British Library Manuscripts

   additional 32085 and Royal 12.C.xii." Speculum 61:4 (1986)


Merle, J. Osset. "Un libro de cocina del siglo XIV". Boletin de

   la sociedad castellonense de cultura 17(1935) pp.156-177.


Mulon, Marianne. "Deux traites inedits d'art culinaire medieval.

   Bulletin Philologique et Historique du Comite des Travaux

   Historiques et Scientifiques 1968 v.1 p.368-435.


Scully, Terence. "Du fait de cuisine par Maistre Chiquart, 1420.:

   Vallesia 40 (1985) p. 101-231. (This was later published with an English

   translation, index and extensive prefatory material by the University

   of Toronto)


Thorndike, Lynn. "A mediaeval sauce-book". Speculum, 9 (1934),

   pp.183-190. Commentary and first publication of Opusculum de

   saporibus of Magninus Mediolanensis (in Latin)



From: bronwynnob at aol.com (BronwynNob)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Help Needed: Midieval Cooking

Date: 13 Feb 1995 19:07:21 -0500


Greetings to Tatiana Novgorod!


A good place to start is the book PLEYN DELIT:  Medieval Cookery for

Modern Cooks by Constance B. Hieatt and Sharon Butler (University of

Toronto Press, 1976), which has a couple of nice sausage recipes.


Also try CURYE ON INGLYSCH:  English culinary manuscripts of the fourteen

century (including THE FORME OF CURY) edited by Hieatt and Butler (Oxford

University Press, 1985)


Another good period source is ON HONEST INDULGENCE (De honesta volaptate)

by Platina (1475) (Falconwood Press, Susan J. Evans, 193 Colonie Street,

Albant NY 12210-2501)


That should be enough to start you off.  Good luck!

Bronwyn ferch Gwyn ap Rhys

Middle Kingdom, Barony of Jararvellir

                           where the motto is "Carpe Carp!"

Per pale azure and gules a tabby cat sejant guardant,

on a chief Or, three hawkbells azure



From: AIGRAN00 at ukcc.uky.EDU (Alison Ingrid Grande)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Disgusting Recipes

Date: 27 Feb 1995 09:47:36 -0500


In response to the lady who wanted to find out about some disgusting recipes--


I believe that in the Libro de Cocina, there are at least two recipes on how

to cook cats. Blech. Carnivore meat. :P


Alison of Windy Fields



From: Lwagner <lwagner at merlin.nando.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Feasts & the Decameron

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 17:34:00 -0500 (EST)


      I found a good book on cooking in my local (Cary, N.C.) library.

It's name is The Literary Gourmet by Linda Wolfe. On page 44, is a feast

based on one of the tales from The Decameron. The recipes are based on

period cookbooks and tell how to make them today. Granted the recipes are

serve only 4, but they can be expended. The book goes from the Bible up

to 1938. The menus are based on works from literature and are from cook

books that are contempuary cook books, so are good sources for recipes.


      If you are interested in this menu and can not find the book, let

me know and I will copy the recipes for you and get them to you.


      In Service to Society,


      Lady Anastasia von Anspach

      formerly of Trimaris, now of Atlantia

      mka Lee Ann Wagner lwagner at nando.net



From: Lwagner <lwagner at merlin.nando.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Feasts & the Decameron

Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 23:37:11 -0500 (EST)

Organization: News & Observer Public Access


      The Literary Gourmet does include the original recipes and

directions for cooking them. Then when the author felt it was necessary,

modern instructions are included. I forgot to mention this in my original



            Yours in service to the SCA,


            Lady Anastasia von Anspach

            mka Lee Ann Wagner (lwagner at nando.net)



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: DDFr at Midway.UChicago.edu (David Friedman)

Subject: Re: Feast help!

Organization: University of Chicago Law School

Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 22:25:47 GMT


4bdh at qlink.queensu.ca (Howell Bailey D) wrote:


>     I have been thoughtfully volunteered for the position of head

> cook for our (Canton of Greyfells) fall event. The theme deals with the

> return of Marco Polo. I'm looking for sources for recipes of basically

> anything Italian and period, or anything that he might have brought back

> with him (apart from VD and the clap) :) Any help would be greatly

> appreciated.


1. I believe the earliest Italian cookbooks in English translation are

Platina (late 15th century) and the book that was translated under the

title Epulario in (I think) the late 16th century; the original of that is

probably 15th century as well. If you have access to someone who reads

Italian, there are somewhat earlier untranslated Italian cookbooks.


2. There are surviving Islamic cookbooks, in translation, from the 13th

century, if you are interested; Marco Polo traveled through Islamic



3. Recipes from both Platina and the Islamic cookbooks, in original and

worked out forms, can be found in the Miscellany that my lady wife and I

produce; there is a version on the web, linked to various SCA pages.



DDFr at Midway.UChicago.Edu



From: steindler at aol.com (Steindler)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Feast help!

Date: 5 Jun 1995 15:57:54 -0400


Regarding your request for recipes from Italy and far Cathay during the

time of the return of Marco Polo, I have some suggestions and add to your



1. His Grace, Duke Cariadoc, correctly points out that the 13th c. arabic

recipes he cited were known and available in Italy at that time. I believe

HE is the best source for this cookbook, ask, no beg, him. However, I

believe that the cookbook he refers to is Ali ibn Muhammad ibn Razin, 13th

c. Fann al-tabkh fi alAndalus wa-al-Maghrib fi bidayat 'ar bani Marin



2. I have looked and not found any TRANSLATIONS of medieval chinese

cookbooks. However, I know that at least two exsit. (I ya ii (Shaung hsia

chuan / Hau I pieu, & chou Lu Chin chiao (This is 14th c.), and Hung Lin;

Shan chiu ch'ig Kung (16th - 17th c.).)  If anyone out there reads either

of the dialects that these cookbooks are in, please E-mail me. I'll send

you a copy if you send me the translation!


3. Platina is OK as far as it goes. It is really to late, even for Marco



4. However, many other sources for Italian early renaissance cooking (just

after Polo) exist, but are not translated. My lady and I are working on

translations of some of these works for publication, but they are not

ready yet and until they are published, I cannot give out the

translations. However, some of the sources are Due Livro de Cucina

(Anonimo Meridionale) and two other anonymous works, one Venetian, one

Toscan that are included in the colleted volumn, Faccioli, L'Arte della

Cucina. If you speak italian there should be no problem getting these



5. A period translation of Messibugo into English exists, but I can't

remeber the title.


All for now.


Etienne Pelerin du Fauconeau (Yes, there is life after Caid; just not




Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: DDFr at Midway.UChicago.edu (David Friedman)

Subject: Re: Feast help!

Organization: University of Chicago Law School

Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 03:52:39 GMT


steindler at aol.com (Steindler) wrote:


> 1. His Grace, Duke Cariadoc, correctly points out that the 13th c. arabic

> recipes he cited were known and available in Italy at that time.


It might be true; Italy had more influence from the civilized world than

most of Frangistan. But it is not what I said. My point was only that Marco

Polo passed through Islamic territory going to and from China.


> However, I

> believe that the cookbook he refers to is Ali ibn Muhammad ibn Razin, 13th

> c. Fann al-tabkh fi alAndalus wa-al-Maghrib fi bidayat 'ar bani Marin

> (etc.)'


I was referring to the cookbook that Ambrosio Huici Miranda published as

Manuscrito Anonimo; unless you have more recent information than I do on

the author he is still unknown.


So far as I know there is no published full translation of the (roughly

contemporary) Andalusian cookbook by Abu l-Hasan ‘Ali ibn Muhammad ibn Abi

l-Qasim ibn Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr ibn Razin al-Tuyibi al-Andalusi. A

Spanish translation was apparently done as a doctoral thesis, but the only

published version I have seen contains only selections from that. An

English translation of those was included in some early versions of my

cookbook collection, but I removed it when I realized that there were

potential copyright problems with a translation of a translation and I have

not succeeded in getting into communication with the Spanish translator to

get his permission.


I hope that clarifies things; there are at least two surviving Andalusian

cookbooks from about the 13th century, but only Manuscrito Anonimo has been

translated into English in full, so far as I know.


> 2. I have looked and not found any TRANSLATIONS of medieval chinese

> cookbooks. However, I know that at least two exsit. (I ya ii (Shaung hsia

> chuan / Hau I pieu, & chou Lu Chin chiao (This is 14th c.), and Hung Lin;

> Shan chiu ch'ig Kung (16th - 17th c.).)  If anyone out there reads either

> of the dialects that these cookbooks are in, please E-mail me. I'll send

> you a copy if you send me the translation!


You are ahead of me on this; I'm still looking for Chinese sources. But I

have what may well be a period Indian cookbook in Sanskrit with Hindi

commentary, if you know any suitable translators interested in the project.


> 4. However, many other sources for Italian early renaissance cooking (just

> after Polo) exist, but are not translated. My lady and I are working on

> translations of some of these works for publication, but they are not

> ready yet and until they are published, I cannot give out the

> translations. However, some of the sources are Due Livro de Cucina

> (Anonimo Meridionale) and two other anonymous works, one Venetian, one

> Toscan that are included in the colleted volumn, Faccioli, L'Arte della

> Cucina.


Someone (perhaps you) told me that the Faccioli editions were very

unreliable--that his version of Martino differed quite substantially from

the manuscrcipt.


> 5. A period translation of Messibugo into English exists, but I can't

> remeber the title.


Is it Epilario (sp?)? That is clearly a translation of something closely

related to Martino and Platina, but I don't know what.



DDFr at Midway.UChicago.Edu



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: kira at eskimo.com (Kira Gray)

Subject: Help! Finding Late Period Culinary Source

Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever

Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 18:02:43 GMT


Can anyone help me find a copy of this late period culinary source?

I've looked all over and no one I've asked (including anyone at the

University of Washington Library) has even *heard* of it.  Please, please,

please! Gotta have it!


   Cristoforo di Messisbugo's "Banchetti, Compositioni di Vivande et

Apparecchio Generale" (1549)


   The author was the Maitre d'hotel in Ferrara to the Dukes d'Este and

his work includes three volumes: #1 is the tools he used in his kitchens,

#2 is descriptions of 16 or so actual feasts prepared in those kitchens,

and #3 is 315 of his recipies.

   Any help you can give will be very much appreciated!





From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming )

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Help! Finding Late Period Culinary Source

Date: 22 Aug 1995 19:23:39 GMT


kira at eskimo.com (Kira Gray) writes:

>   Can anyone help me find a copy of this late period culinary source?

>I've looked all over and no one I've asked (including anyone at the

>University of Washington Library) has even *heard* of it.  Please,

>please! Gotta have it!

>   Cristoforo di Messisbugo's "Banchetti, Compositioni di Vivande et

>Apparecchio Generale" (1549)

>   The author was the Maitre d'hotel in Ferrara to the Dukes d'Este and

>his work includes three volumes: #1 is the tools he used in his kitchens,

>#2 is descriptions of 16 or so actual feasts prepared in those kitchens,

>and #3 is 315 of his recipies.

>   Any help you can give will be very much appreciated!

>   -Cassia


I have a copy sitting in front of me.  It is, I believe, included in

_Arte della Cucina_, (edited?) by Emilio Faccioli, Edizioni il

Polifilo, Milano, 1966, Volume I.  Got my copy from Master Basilicus

Phocas in Kentucky.  Volume I also contains a number of other texts

such as Platina and Martino.  The Messiburgo section is 52 pages,

single-side copy.  If you can't find it in the library, let me know by

e-mail and I can try to photocopy what I have.


Alys K.



From: jtn at newsserver.uconn.edu (Terry Nutter)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Help! Finding Late Period Culinary Source

Date: 23 Aug 1995 01:13:06 GMT

Organization: University of Connecticut


Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn


Cassia asks for a source for Messibugo's "Banchetti".  It is one of the

many period Italian collections reproduced in


      Faccioli, Emilio, _Arte Della Cucina.  LKibri de Ricette Testi

      Sopra lo Scalco il Trinciante e i Vini Dal XIV al XIX Secolo_,

      Edizioni il Polifilo (Milan) 1966.


Most (maybe all) of the period stuff is in volume 1.


I know UConn has this in its collection.  Let me know if you can't find

it but have access to ILL, and I'll fish a few online catalogs for you.



-- Angharad/Terry


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