cookbooks2-msg - 1/23/09
Reviews of cookbooks with medieval recipes. Messages posted after September 1995 but before December 1997.
NOTE: See also the files: cookbooks-msg, cookbooks3-msg, cooking-bib, cookbooks-bib, cookbooks2-bib, cookbooks-SCA-msg, cb-rv-Apicius-msg, cb-novices-msg.
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Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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[See cookbooks-msg for cookbook review messages posted prior to September
1995 and cookbooks3-msg for cookbook reviews posted after December 1997.]
From: RCMANN at delphi.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Food sources needed...Please help
Date: 17 Sep 1995 09:23:33 GMT
Quoting jtn from a message in rec.org.sca
>Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.
>Brighid ni Chiarain writes:
>: There is a potato recipe in "The Good Huswifes Jewell" (1596). It
>: is also my favorite period recipe *title* -- 'To make a tarte that
>: is a courage to a man or woman'. ISTR that Karen Hess, in a note
>: in "Martha Washington's Cookbook" said that this recipe is
>: supposed to be an aphrodisiac, as potatoes had that reputation
>: then.
>Ah, so that's where it's from.
>One meaning of "courage" is "sexual vigor". (If you don't believe me,
>look it up. ;^) The title directly _says_ this is an aphrodisiac.
I believe you. :)
Come to think of it, I have heard an English folksong (probably
post-period) on a Maddy Prior album. The refrain was a woman
lamenting, "Me husband's got no courage in him".
>I have only the second part of the Good Hus-wiues Iewell (1606), which,
>on the pages of the text, bears the running head "A Booke of Cookerie".
>I have not seen the first part, but my impression was that it was
>largely a non-culinary miscellany, implying that the recipe in question
>would be viewed as medicinal, not as culinary (a treatment, not a food).
>Can you confirm or contradict?
The book contains both kinds of material, although it is primarily
a cookbook. There are about 30 medicinal recipes, mostly
clustered at the end -- and 3 times as many culinary recipes.
There are also a few remarks on animal husbandry. A few of the
remedies are scattered, apparently randomly, in the middle of the
cooking section. The "courage" tart appears between a culinary
recipe for filet of beef and a medicinal recipe for stewed cock
(which does not specify what it is supposed to cure!) that
includes pieces of gold in its list of ingredients.
(It would be interesting to research the belief in the curative
power of gold. In "Libro de Guisados" by Ruperto de Nola, there
is a recipe for a medicinal broth that is essentially chicken soup
that has been cooked with gold coins. The author asserts that it
will revive even those who are almost dead.)
The tart recipe also calls for the brains of cock sparrows
(another aphrodisiac ingredient, according to Karen Hess). Oh,
what the heck, why don't I just post the whole thing here?
"TO MAKE A TARTE THAT IS A COURAGE TO A MAN OR WOMAN
Take twoo Quinces and twoo or three Burre rootes, and a potaton,
and pare your Potaton, and scrape your rootes and put them into a
quart of wine, and let them boyle till they bee tender, & put in
an ounce of Dates, and when they be boyled tender, Drawe them
through a strainer, wine and all, and then put in the yolkes of
eight Egges, and the braynes of three or foure cocke Sparrowes,
and straine them into the other, and a little Rose water, and
seeth them all with suger, Cinamon and Gynger, and Cloves and
mace, and put in a little sweet butter, and set it upon a
chafingdish of coles between two platters, and so let it boyle
until it be something bigge."
>Cheers,
>-- Angharad/Terry
Robin Carroll-Mann ** rcmann at delphi.com
SCA: Brighid ni Chiarain, Settmour Swamp, East
p.s. It was a BAD idea to run this particular post through my
spellchecker. <g>
From: Gretchen Miller <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Good Huswifes Jewell, for Angharad
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 15:13:32 -0400
Organization: Computer Operations, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Excerpts from netnews.rec.org.sca: 19-Sep-95 Re: Food sources
needed...P.. by Terry Nutter at newsserver.
> Well, shoot. I've got to find a copy of the first part.
Falconwood Press carries both parts--here's ordering info from the back
of my copy:
Falconwood press
193 Colonie Street
Albany, NY 12210-2501
If you would like to order any of the above books (the back includes
lists of "Our current catalogue includes"), please make your check
payable to "Susan J. Evans". Add $1. for the first book and $.50 for
each additional book to help cover the costs of shipping.
More embroidery and cookery books are being added. All of the counter
tread embroidery patterns have been carefully and accurately re-graphed
for clarity. Please send a SASE for the current list. Are there any
historical books you would like to see published? Drop us a line and
we'll consider adding to our catalogue.
toodles, margaret
From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Asking Recipes (fwd)
Date: 8 Nov 1995 03:12:29 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
: From: Bernard Thiry <bnt at CIGER.BE>
: To: Multiple recipients of list MEDIEV-L <MEDIEV-L at UKANVM.BITNET>
: Subject: Asking Recipes
: We are a group of friends who create a benevolent belgian society to promote
: Medieval by spectacle and animation. For our activities (especially
: banquet), we are searching more (easy to make) medieval recipes.
: If you know some very tasteful recipes (you test it, and you like it !),
: could you please it send me directly to my mail adress (bnt at ciger.be).
: Sorry for my poor English but My Mother Tongue is French.
I will apologize for not even attempting to respond in French, but here
are some French-language books on medieval cooking (or editions of French
medieval cooking texts) taken from the bibliography of "The Viandier of
Taillevent" (ed. Terence Scully).
"Viaunde e claree" (13th c.) in Constance B. Hieatt and Robin F. JOnes
"Two Anglo-Norman Culinary Collections Edited from British Library Mss
..." Speculum, 61 (1986), 859-882
"Le Viandier de Guillaume Tirel dit Taillevent" Ed. Jerome Pichon &
Georges Vicaire. Paris (1892)
"Le Menagier de Paris" ed. Georgine Brereton & Janet Ferrier. Oxford (1981).
Chiquart Amiczo, Maistre. "Du fait de cuisine". (15th c.) Vallesia, 40
(1985) 101-231.
"Recueil de Riom" ed. Carole Lambert. Montreal (1988)
I hope this is useful.
Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn
From: alkudsi at aol.com (AlKudsi)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Candy!
Date: 15 Nov 1995 01:22:42 -0500
There are quite a number of Middle Eastern confections and pastries within
period. Try the al-Baghdadi cookbook, translated by Charles Perry. There
is one called Halwa Yabisa which is very similar to divinity or taffy.
Another called Sabuniya is more like fudge without the chocolate. The
dates for the cookbook are 1226 AD (Christian era)/623 AH (Islamic date).
If you want actual recipes, I believe you can find them in the cooking
thread. If not, just e-mail me back, and I'll be happy to online them.
Honorable El-Sayyidda Saqra al-Kudsi
Barony of the Steppes, Kingdom of Ansteorra
From: ddfr at best.com (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Candy!
Date: 16 Nov 1995 06:19:03 GMT
alkudsi at aol.com (AlKudsi) wrote:
> There are quite a number of Middle Eastern confections and pastries within
> period. Try the al-Baghdadi cookbook, translated by Charles Perry. ... The
> dates for the cookbook are 1226 AD (Christian era)/623 AH (Islamic date).
You are confusing two, or possibly three, different cookbooks.
al-Baghdadi, which was written in 1226/623, was translated by Arberry
about sixty years ago. Charles Perry translated Ibn al-Mubarrad, which is
fifteenth century Middle Eastern, some years back and published it in PPC.
He later translated _Manuscrito Anonimo_, which is 13th century
Andalusian, and it is included in volume II of the collection of source
materials I sell.
All three cookbooks have Hulwa (sweets) recipes of one sort or another,
however, so it doesn't much matter. My standard Hulwa is from Ibn al
Mubarrad (I think).
David/Cariadoc
--
ddfr at best.com
From: cclark at vicon.net (C. Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Cooking
Date: 8 Mar 1996 20:45:40 GMT
Organization: EMI Communications
memorman at oldcolo.com says...
>if you feel up to trying to redact (make a modern translation and
>cooking instructions) some period recipes yourself, the overall
>best source is probably Duke Cariadoc's 'Miscellany'. it includes
>photocopies of numerous out-of-print period cookbooks, from some
>middle eastern ones to goodman of paris to 'the two fifteenth century
>cookbooks'. (now note, i'm doing this from memory and do not have
>the book in front of me.) his grace is a frequent visitor to this
Just in case His Grace isn't around at the moment, let me offer a little
correction. These are two different books.
_A_Miscelleny_, by Cariadoc and Elizabeth. This has lots of
reconstructions of period recipes from a wide variety of sources. They
tend to be more accurate than most of what I have seen in the SCA.
_A_Collection_of_Medieval_and_Renaissance_Cookbooks_, compiled by Cariadoc
and Diana, et al. This contains transcriptions (vol. 1) and translations
(vol. 2) of a large number of period cookbooks.
I recommend both very highly. Contact Cariadoc (David Friedman) for
further information.
If you can read at least a little Middle English, then another excellent
book is _Curye_on_Inglysch_ by Constance B. Hieatt and Sharon Butler
(Oxford University Press, New York, 1985). This contains (probably) the
best available transcriptions of several English cookbooks from the 14th
century, including the famous _Forme_of_Cury_. Don't leave the twentieth
century without it. :)
Henry of Maldon
From: memorman at oldcolo.com (Mary Morman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Cooking
Date: 12 Mar 1996 17:48:06 GMT
Organization: Old Colorado City Communications
David Friedman (ddfr at best.com) wrote:
: Thanks for the plug, but you are confusing two different things available
: from me. The Miscellany includes a lot of period recipes in both the
: original and worked out version, as well as articles on cooking and other
: subjects, poetry, etc. What you are describing is not the Miscellany but
: the two volumes of source material on cooking which I also sell. They are
: period (or 17th century) cookbooks, in some cases originally in English,
: in others translated. For more information, EMail me.
: David/Cariadoc
: ddfr at best.com
bad elaina! bad!
i knew the difference, your grace. really honestly. it was my fingers,
that's it! my fingers typed in the words without consulting my brain.
well, maybe my brain was off on vacation somewhere....
i apologize for the incorrect information, and still think the "collection
of medieval and renaissance cookbooks" is the single most valuable source
available to sca cook's. ( to save all the trouble of remembering names,
we usually just call it 'cariadoc's cookbook'...)
elaina
From: memorman at oldcolo.com (Mary Morman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Cooking
Date: 14 Mar 1996 23:18:01 GMT
Organization: Old Colorado City Communications
Fraser Heather G (3hgf at qlink.queensu.ca) wrote:
: _Pleyn Delit_ isn't a perfect book -- Hieatt and Butler themselves later
: admitted to some mistakes of interpretation -- but it's a good one to get an
: SCA cook started on where they might take a period recipe and turn it into
: a dish. I highly recommend it for any SCA cook, and I think it's still
: in print even.
There is a new edition of "Pleyn Delit" out. I have not seen it yet,
but Mistress Jaelle has, and says that it is very worthwhile (but more
expensive than the original).
This is an excellent source for people new to SCA cooking. My son's
boarding school in Iowa even used it to re-create a big Renaissance
feast and faire for the school.
In Service,
ELAINA
Elaina de Sinistre, OP
Barony of Dragonsspine
Kingdom of the Outlands
memorman at oldcolo.com
From: alysk at ix.netcom.com(Elise Fleming )
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: "Thousand Eggs" Cookbook Available
Date: 19 Mar 1996 00:47:20 GMT
Greetings! In a recent post about cookbooks someone noted that Cindy
Renfrow's _Take A Thousand Eggs Or More_ was going out of print. Yes
and no. She will not re-publish it but the SCA Stock Clerk will.
Unfortunately, it seems they haven't made much note of that fact. So,
if you still want copies, they are available for $20 US for the set,
which includes shipping. Contact the Member Services Office, P.O. Box
360743, Milpitas, CA 95036-0743. (The first book has recipes and
redactions. The second has the original text with a modern-spelling
version, but no redactions.) If you are interested in seeing samples,
look at her web site: http://www.alcasoft.com/renfrow/ Hope this
helps those who were looking for the book!
Alys Katharine
From: pat at lalaw.lib.CA.US (Pat Lammerts)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: medieval cookbook
Date: 18 Mar 1996 23:45:00 -0500
Dorothea wrote:
>David Friedman <ddfr at best.com> wrote:
>>> >Maggie Black, _The Medieval Cookbook_....
>>> >pages. ISBN 0-7141-0583X. Price: 8.99 pounds
>>>
>>Is it any good as a medieval cookbook? Does it include the originals and
>>give their sources, and are its worked out recipes faithful to the
>>original?
>In fact, it does. Each recipe begins with the original Middle
>English text (with reference to the MS. in which it appears)
>followed by a redaction. When Black changes a recipe, as she
>occasionally does, she tells how and _why_ she is changing it (e.g.
>to reduce the fat content).
>
>As to whether it is up to your standards, why, you would have to
>read it and see.
>
>Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
>Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
>Argent, a cross forme'e sable djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
>PRO DEO ET REGE
I have to beg to differ about this book. I have submitted a fuller
book review on this book to SERVE IT UP. If you subscribe to this
journal, you can read it in full.
However, after having read the book from cover to cover, I have
to say that, while in the beginning Ms Black does explain her
recipe changes, after chapter 3 she stops doing so. And there
are many later changes that she should have justified.
She also is very inconsistent with explaining some of the more
unusual ingredients, especially verjuice, powder fort and
powder douce. Her substitutions vary from recipe to recipe and
are not always correct, in my opinion. She also throws in thickeners
that are not called for in the original, and does not explain why.
Her usual thickener is rice flour/cornflour. While rice flour has
been used in period recipes, cornflour is OOP.
Her "Piment" recipe is badly done. She also includes two bread
recipes that she admits are modern.
I found her text light and breezy in style and not particularly
scholarly.
I would not recommend this book for a novice cook.
Huette
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Mistress Huette Aliza von und zu Ahrens und Mechthildberg +
+ Ars non gratia artis, sed gratia pecuniae +
+ Kingdom of Caid +
+ Barony of the Angels, Canton of the Canyons +
+ (pat at lalaw.lib.ca.us) +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: memorman at oldcolo.com (Mary Morman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: medieval cookbook
Date: 21 Mar 1996 22:56:54 GMT
Organization: Old Colorado City Communications
Pat Lammerts (pat at lalaw.lib.CA.US) wrote:
: I have to beg to differ about this book. I have submitted a fuller
: book review on this book to SERVE IT UP. If you subscribe to this
: journal, you can read it in full.
Minor correction: Serve It Forth!
The issue of the journal with Mistress Huette's fine review (among others)
is the April 1996 issue, due out, believe it or not..... in April.
memorman at oldcolo.com
From: Deloris Booker <dbooker at freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Cooking
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:26:32 -0700
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
> Pleyn Delit is a good one. A new edition is out (so I hear). The authors are
> Sharon Butler and Constance Hiatt.
> I highly recommend it.
>
> meadhbh
Re: Pleyn Delit : yes, it is available in an expanded second edition.
The bibliographic bumph is as follows :
"Pleyn Delit: medieval cookery for modern cooks" by Constance B. Hieatt,
Brenda Hosington and Sharon Butler, University of Toronto Pr., Toronto,
ON, Canada. 1996. 0-8020-0678-7 (cloth); 0-8020-7632-7(Paper). The pb.
ed. is $Can. 16.95. The only complaint I have with the new ed. is that
the pb. binding is still very tight and the book does not lie open and
flat. However, eventually this binding will break as did the first and
the problem will solve itself. There are a numbeer of new recipies in
the second ed. and some of them look very good.
Aldreada of the Lakes
From: alysk at ix.netcom.com(Elise Fleming )
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cooking Sources: Byzantine/Spanish
Date: 7 Jun 1996 20:12:38 GMT
Greetings! For Spanish/Catalan sources one can try Ruperto de Nola's
_Libro de Guisados_. Dionisio Perez edited an edition in "MCMXXIX"
which was printed in Madrid and is around in some university libraries.
One of Nola's editions was done in 1529. There is also the _Libro del
arte de cozina_, one edition of which was done in 1607. The _Libre de
Sent Sovi_ had a recent reprint done in Barcelona, 1979. This one is
in Catalan rather than Spanish. Duke Sir Cariadoc's _Collection of
Medieval and Renaissance Cookbooks, Volume II (6th edition, 1993),
contains an English translation of _An Anonymous Andalusian Cookbook of
the 13th Century_. This originated in Arabic. A Spanish translation
of a late 1500s Arabic copy was done for a doctoral thesis but contains
a number of translation errors which are corrected in the English
version.
Several of us have been working to translate the first two books
mentioned but procrastination has set in (on my part, at least). How
bilingual are you???
Alys Katharine
From: cclark at vicon.net (C. Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Sugar (was Hersheys' commercials)
Date: 25 Jul 1996 20:21:46 GMT
Organization: EMI Communications
beecheer at hpohp4.wgw.bt.co.uk says...
> ... we *do not* use sugar in our re-enactments of the English Civil
>War (1600s). Sometimes we use honey but we never use sugar.
But how can you make 17th century cakes, biscuits, tarts, comfits, jelly,
preserves, etc., without sugar? It was perhaps not the most ubiquitous of
ingredients, but it was required by a great many recipes of the period.
Or have you discovered that sugar was temporarily unavailable in England
in the 1640s? Even that would be hard to believe without documentation.
Speaking of which, here's a short list (just off the top of my head) of a
few cookbooks from the early and middle 1600s: _Delights_for_Ladies_ by
Hugh Plat, _The_English_Hus-Wife_ by Gervase Markham, _The_Closet_Opened_
by Sir Kenelm Digby (I think the full title is something like
_The_Closet_of_the_Eminently_Learned_Sir_Kenelme_Digby,_Kt.,_Opened_),
_Martha_Washington's_Book_of_Cookery_ (ed. Karen Hess) and
_Elinor_Fettiplace's_Receipt_Book_ (ed. Hilary Spurling).
On the other hand, if you avoid sugar so that all of your food will be
acceptable for diabetics, then you should avoid honey too. The sugars in
honey tend to be about equal parts sucrose, glucose, and fructose, and
honey is much denser than granulated sugar or castor sugar.
Henry of Maldon/Alex Clark
From: Matthew Legge <mlegge at quokka.epidem.uwa.edu.au>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Historical Italian Food
Date: 19 Aug 1996 00:41:23 GMT
Organization: The University of Western Australia
An Australin author has compiled a book on foods from the Mediterranean in
the pre Columbus period.
The book is:
"The Original Mediterranean Cuisine: Medieval Recipes for Today"
by
Barbara Santich
Available from Wakefield press. The book goes into the background of the
Western Mediterranean with respect to how climate affected what was
available and how the meals of the time were effected by this and other
factors.
It gives the original recipe in translated and untranslated form and a
modern day adaptation of the dish along with a set of sources in a section
on further reading
Matt Legge
From: pat at lalaw.lib.CA.US (Pat Lammerts)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Historical Italian Food
Date: 19 Aug 1996 20:07:29 -0400
Matt Legge wrote:
> "The Original Mediterranean Cuisine: Medieval Recipes for Today"
>
>Available from Wakefield press.
Thank you, Matt!
I have looked this up on my interlibrary computer. While I didn't find
a record for the publisher that you have mentioned, I did find that
there is an English publisher who is also publishing this book. Here
is the record that I found:
Santich, Barbara.
The original Mediterranean cuisine : medieval recipes for today / Barbara
Santich. -- Devon, England : Prospect Books, c1995.
ix, 178 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.
ISBN 0907325599 (pbk.)
I am placing my order for this book today. It sounds interesting.
Huette
(pat at lalaw.lib.ca.us)
From: alysk at ix.netcom.com(Elise Fleming )
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: book info needed: "Travelling Dyshes"
Date: 21 Aug 1996 22:11:23 GMT
blakader at sprynet.com writes:
>
>I have recently returned from the war, where I was made aware of the
existence of a book called "Travelling
>Dyshes", which is a compilation of period recipes for picnics, etc. I
was unable to find it at any of my usual
>haunts (Little Churl or Poison Pen Press), so I thought I'd ask the
learned folk of the Rialto. I have no idea about
>the author's name, publisher, date of print, ISBN, etc.
It was at Pennsic available from Potboiler Press. You can also try the
address listed in the front of it: Pat McGregor, 3507 Santos Circle,
Cameron Park, CA 95682-8247. The price may still be $6.50 but
Potboiler sold it for $10.
Alys Katharine
From: theducks at greenduck.com (Steve Urbach)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: book info needed: "Travelling Dyshes"
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 01:46:51 GMT
blakader at sprynet.com wrote:
>I have recently returned from the war, where I was made aware of the existence of a book called "Travelling
>Dyshes", which is a compilation of period recipes for picnics, etc. I was unable to find it at any of my usual
>haunts (Little Churl or Poison Pen Press), so I thought I'd ask the learned folk of the Rialto. I have no idea about
>the author's name, publisher, date of print, ISBN, etc.
>Marguerite de Bordeaux (formerly Marguerite Guiot)
We stock it at Green Duck Designs. In fact Siobans web page has a
link to us as We take Credit Cards and She can't (yet).
http://www.greenduck.com/newrtpl/cooking.htm to go to the price lists.
Derek
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 21:26:24 +0100
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy M Renfrow)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: book info needed: "Travelling Dyshes"
alysk at ix.netcom.com(Elise Fleming ) wrote:
In <4vfpto$frn at juliana.sprynet.com> blakader at sprynet.com writes:
>
>I have recently returned from the war, where I was made aware of the
>existence of a book called "Travelling
>Dyshes", which is a compilation of period recipes for picnics, etc. I
>was unable to find it at any of my usual
>haunts (Little Churl or Poison Pen Press), so I thought I'd ask the
>learned folk of the Rialto. I have no idea about
>the author's name, publisher, date of print, ISBN, etc.
Hello! Traveling Dysshes has a web site with ordering info:
http://www.lloyd.com/~patmcg/disshes.html
It is also available through Green Duck Designs & Potboiler Press.
Hope this helps!
Cindy Renfrow
renfrow at skylands.net
From: Pat McGregor <Pat_McGregor at ccm.fm.intel.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: book info needed: "Travelling Dyshes"
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 13:23:31 -0700
Organization: Intel Information Security
Greetings from siobhan medhbh!
Someone asked about the book I wrote, "Travelling Dysshes." Alys
replied:
> It was at Pennsic available from Potboiler Press. You can also try
> address listed in the front of it: Pat McGregor, 3507 Santos Circle,
> Cameron Park, CA 95682-8247. The price may still be $6.50 but
> Potboiler sold it for $10.
You can order it from me, altho I am close to out of the current print
run (thank you all!). The $6.50 price was for folks who ordered it
before May 15 (a pre-print special). Current list price is $10.
Cindy Renfrow (herself author of some mighty fine books!) wrote:
> Hello! Traveling Dysshes has a web site with ordering info:
> http://www.lloyd.com/~patmcg/disshes.html
>
> It is also available through Green Duck Designs & Potboiler Press.
Thank you, Cindy. This is exactly correct.
siobhan m.
=========================================================
Pat_McGregor at ccm.fm.intel.com
From: ddfr at best.com (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Preserving meat
Date: 30 Sep 1996 17:31:30 GMT
In article <52ojl5$s91 at news2.ptd.net>, Aoife <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net>
wrote:
> For what it's worth, here's another recipe I dug up from *Apecius,
> Cookery and Dining in Imperial Rome*, J.D. Vehling (Dover, 1977). The
> source isn't always terribly accurate (at least as far as the notes
> sections go--stick to the original recipes and you won't go wrong),
I gather that even Vehling's translations of the originals are unreliable.
There is apparently a much better and more recent translation--I believe by
Flowers and Rosenbaum or some similar pair of names. _Serve It Forth_,
which is a newsletter for people interested in period cooking, had an
article by Katrine with a very detailed critique of one of Vehling's
recipes, comparing his translation to the original Latin.
David/Cariadoc
--
ddfr at best.com
From: ddfr at best.com (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Preserving meat
Date: 4 Oct 1996 05:32:26 GMT
> Might you have a good translations of Chiquart?
>
> LLEWELLYN
There are two--a commercially published translation by Terrence Scully,
and a translation by my lady wife that is included in Volume II of the
collection of source material for period cooking that I sell. I believe
they are both good, but have not checked either against the original
myself.
David/Cariadoc
--
ddfr at best.com
From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU>
To: SCA Cooks Mailing List
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:15:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: sca-cooks Re- intro (fwd)
AUTHOR: Castelvetro, Giacomo, 1546-1616?
TITLE: [Brieve racconto di tutte le radici, di tutte l'erbe e di tutti
i frutti, che crudi o cotti in Italia si mangiano. English]
The fruit, herbs & vegetables of Italy : an offering to Lucy,
Countess of Bedford / Giacomo Castelvetro ; translated with an
introduction by Gillian Riley ; foreword by Jane Grigson.
PUB. INFO: London, England : New York, N.Y., USA : Viking ; [London] :
British Museum, Natural History, 1989.
DESCRIPTION: 175 p. : ill. (some col.) ; 26 cm.
ISBN: 067082724X
From: "chris douglass" <chrisd at ala-net.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:30:12 -0500
Subject: Re: sca-cooks Introduction
Greetings unto the list
> I am Rufus Guthrie from the shire of Adlersruhe. I am currently working on
> a history piece focusing on the Normans from 1000-1150. I would be very
> indebted to anyone that might be able to refer me to any recipes that would
> be from this time and dealing with the Norman's.
>
> Rufus
You may look for an article by Constance Hieatt and R.F. Jones,Speculum 61
(1986),859-82., entitled "Two Anglo-Norman Culinary Collections". This
manuscript is slightly later then the period you mention but is as close as
you will proably be able to get.
Hrolf
From: "Sharon L. Harrett" <afn24101 at afn.org>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:51:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: sca-cooks Viking Period Cooking - Looking for Information about
On Sun, 13 Apr 1997 Harbarth at aol.com wrote:
> My wife and I are new to the SCA and we are getting ready
> to attend our 1st event. We have choosen the viking period
> as a starting place in history for our garb and study.
>
> Looking for books or information about food and cooking
> during that period. Any ideas or suggestions would be very
> helpful.
>
> In service to the Dream - Harbarth (Richard Bohlman)
>
In Duke Sir Cariadoc's collection of period cookbooks he includes one page
of recipes from "An Old Icelandic Medical Miscellany" (henning Larsen, Oslo,
1931 pp214-218) that includes 22 recipes. I know the good Duke has a
homepage but don't know its' address. Anyone?
Ceridwen
From: "Philip W. Troy" <troy at asan.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:02:01 -0400
Subject: Re: sca-cooks Viking Period Cooking - Looking for Information about
Sharon L. Harrett wrote:
>
> On Sun, 13 Apr 1997 Harbarth at aol.com wrote:
>
> > My wife and I are new to the SCA and we are getting ready
> > to attend our 1st event. We have choosen the viking period
> > as a starting place in history for our garb and study.
> >
> > Looking for books or information about food and cooking
> > during that period. Any ideas or suggestions would be very
> > helpful.
> >
> > In service to the Dream - Harbarth (Richard Bohlman)
> >
> In Duke Sir Cariadoc's collection of period cookbooks he includes one page
> of recipes from "An Old Icelandic Medical Miscellany" (henning Larsen, Oslo,
> 1931 pp214-218) that includes 22 recipes. I know the good Duke has a
> homepage but don't know its' address. Anyone?
>
> Ceridwen
There's just one problem with the Icelandic Medical Miscellany: while it
appears to have been written (possibly) by an Icelandic author, and
discovered in Iceland, the recipes it contains are believed to have been
acquired by the author while at medical school in one of the great
Southern European centers of learning: I don't remember if it was
Sienna, the Languedoc, or perhaps Spain. I think it was Provence,
though. So, the Miscellany appears actually to be a French cookbook
transported to Iceland.
Yes, I know life would be much simpler if stuff like this didn't happen,
but what can I say? That's the way the oubley crumbles.
Adamantius
From: Judy Gerjuoy <jaelle at access.digex.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:25:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: sca-cooks Viking Period Cooking - Looking for Information about
I don't know of any Viking period cookbooks in English.
The closest thing I know of of scholary information about food of that
era, is a short (5 page) article in _Du Mauscript a la Table_ edited by
Carole Lambert, which discusses two versions of a *14th* century Danish
cookbook, one from circa 1300, the other from circa 1350.
The other books which might be useful are Anglo-Saxon Food and Anglo-Saxon
Food and Drink by Hagen. Note: they are *not* cookbooks, but rather a
discussion of the food/drink/preparation methods of that time/place.
While not Viking, it is probably the closest source you will find.
Jaelle
jaelle at access.digex.net
From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:35:17 -0500
Subject: Re: SC - Research assistance needed
Hi, Katerine here.
Stephanie of the Nethyrwode asked (among other things) for sources on
cuisine from England and France in the 11th, 12th, and early 13th centuries.
The earliest workable recipe collection from England (an Anglo-Norman
collection) dates from the end of the 13th century. (There are a few
recipes in Neckham, but they are generally agreed to contain too little
information to do anything with.) The earliest French collection that
I am aware of (there may be earlier ones) is the VAL manuscript of
Taillevent, which also dates from the late 13th century.
The only early 13th C cookbook from northern Europe that I am aware of
is the one Rudolf Grewe published a preliminary account of, and was
working on a serious edition (with Constance Hieatt) when he died. She
is completing that work on her own, but meanwhile, his article is
probably the only significant collection from anywhere in northern
Europe in the time frame in question.
Further to complicate matters, while that collection survives in four
northern manuscripts, the recipes in it are believed to reflect a
southern influence, very likely picked up during study at a university.
Ann Hagen's work on Anglo-Saxon food will provide some information on
this period, but no recipes.
Sorry not to be more helpful.
- -- Katerine/Terry
From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON)
Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 02:28:32 EDT
Subject: Re: SC - Elinor Fettiplace
Spurling, Hilary. Elinor Fettiplace’s Receipt Book, Elizabethan Country
House Cooking. Viking Penguin, Inc., NY, 1986.
An excellent book, and Spurling has not just edited it, she has done a
good bit of research to let you know about the recipes, the foodstuffs,
etc. of the time. Highly recommended. Your local bookseller could order
it for you.
Allison
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 00:02:47 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - Hello & Questions
Gretchen M Beck wrote:
> I've got a question about Fettiplace (when I got it interlibrary loan, I
> skimmed it, but didn't read the whole thing). I couldn't date any of
> her recipes. Does she give a scheme for this? I know the intro says
> that the recipes are written in different hands starting in 1604, but
> don't remember finding (see above for how hard I searched) any
> references to which recipes belonged to which period.
>
> toodles, margaret
The story goes something like this:
The recipes in Elinor's own hand were copied in 1604. We don't know
which of these were Elinor's recipes and which were passed along from
her mother, grandmother, etc. Some of the recipes seem remarkably
archaic by the standards of the day, and the possibility exists that
they predate Elinor by a couple of hundred years or so.
Now, there are recipes that post-date Elinor, as well. They appear in a
more modern handwriting, and occur later in the book, assuming the book
was written turning the pages from right to left. These date from as
late as the eighteenth century. If I remember correctly, some of them
are signed and/or dated.
Spurling's notes address this question to some extent, but the coverage
is pretty sporadic, so you may not get this information in connection
with any specific recipe you're interested in.
Hope this helps put things in perpective...
Adamantius
From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:24:30 -0500
Subject: Re: SC - Announcement and question
Julleran asks me to clarfy my reference to Austin. Sorry, it's been a long
year already this month. Austin, _Two Fifteenth-Century Cookery-Books_. I
forget the full reference (it's on my web page, URL below, if you're really
interested, along with some other references -- follow the link to sources),
but it's in the Early English Text Society Original Series, and most
good research libraries have it.
Cheers,
- -- Katerine/Terry
http://www.watervalley.net/users/jtn/culhist.html
From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:10:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: SC - "Fabulous Feasts"
I bought _Take a Buttock of Beef_ for one reason: unlike _Fabulous
Feasts_, it includes original recipes, so you can just shut your eyes at
the facing-page redactions and learn something. I'm assuming, of
course, that the "original recipes" are in fact reprinted accurately.
Yes, I think it does. I have a facsimile version of "Queen's Closet Opened"
that I had compared one or two recipes with.
Tibor
From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 13:24:23 -0500
Subject: Re: SC - Chicken usage
Hi, Katerine here. Lord Ras responds to me:
><< Do you mean that chickens were not eaten by peasants, or that they were
>not
> common in upper class cuisine? The first, I have little information on;
> but the second is patently false. Chicken is the single most common form
> of flesh in 13th to 15th century English recipes; the only thing that comes
> close to rivaling it is pork. >>
>
>Because the majority, if not all, of period recipe books were written for
>noble households, would not the proliferation of chicken recipes indicate
>that they were in fact not a common food item? Case in point would be the
>nobleman's desire to impress his guests with his wealth by serving as many
>exotics as possible. What better way than to serve chicken. Just a tho't but
>, IMHO, not an unreasonable one. Conversely the less often an item is
>mentioned, the more "common" it may have been. Responce?
First of all, we don't know *who* most period recipe books were written
for. There is pretty good internal evidence that most were written for
wealthy households, but that's a very different claim from noble. The
evidence directly contradicts their being produced for royal ones: the
four manuscripts localized by the Linguistic Atlas of Late Medieval
English, for instance, come from Essex, Cheshire, Hereford, and the
northern midlands.
That being said: even if we assume that the cookbooks were developed for
noble households, it doesn't follow that they contain no dishes that common
people ate. For one thing, every noble household fed hundreds of common
people. For another, we have evidence that nobles ate some of the things
commoners ate. For a third, cookbooks have recipes for things like
frumenty, joutes, worts, and so on. Unless one wants to argue that
common people didn't eat boiled grains and greens, we are forced to the
conclusion that a recipe appearing in a cookbook does not imply that
the foodstuffs in it were not commonly available and eaten.
Also: you only fed guests when they were there. You fed the entire household,
from servants up, every mortal day.
In addition, the most common herbs in the medieval English corpus are
parsley, sage, and mint. Parsley and sage are child's play to grow in an
English climate, and mint's a freaking weed. If there are any growing
things that everybody's almost sure to have, these are among them.
Finally, even the richest households cannot generally afford to eat *only*
rare things. They eat some rare things, yes. But rice and potatoes hit
billionaires' tables. The assumption that *everything*-- even every
preparation, let alone every *ingredient* -- that shows up frequently in
a cookbook is rare strikes me as massively implausible; and the assumption
that ingredients show up in inverse measure of their frequency in the
overall diet strikes me as almost equally unlikely.
There is independent evidence that roast birds were high prestige foods.
What isn't entirely clear is the extent to which the prestige part came
from being able to afford the fuel and labor to roast them. Chicken is
certainly considered upper-class fare. I'm not sure that makes it even
relatively unavailable to common people, let alone rare overall. At
least equally likely, in some measure, is the hypothesis that only rich
people could afford to eat young, tender chicken (and to have capons cut),
rather than tossing exhausted layers and tough old roosters into the pot.
We don't know. And guessing is dangerous.
Cheers,
- -- Katerine/Terry
From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:56:03 -0500
Subject: Re: SC - Upper class eats
Hi, Katerine here. Lord Ras responds to me:
><< I would be interested if you could provide a list of such books from
>England
> that *were*. To the best of my knowlege, we don't know for whom a single
> extant collection was produced. There is a claim in the introduction of one
> concerning *by* whom it was produced; but that claim is held in substantial
> doubt in the professional community. In any case, it is relatively certain
> that no extant copy of FoC was produced for a royal kitchen.
>
>Other than the technicality that I used the word "noble" and not "royal" in
>my original post, I have NO knowledge of English period cookery. However,
> "the Baghdad Cookery Book" and Le Manegier almost certainly were produced
>for noble households. The Baghdad Cookery Book makes numerous references to
>perparing certain dishes for the Calliph, etc. And Le Manegier describes it's
>purpose quite plainly.
The Menagier is one of the few collections where we have specific insight
into the class level of its author. It was written by a wealthy bourgeois
for a second young wife. He wasn't even what one would call gentle; just
socially aspiring.
> <<On the other hand, we *do* know that collections from very different parts
> of England duplicate recipes in each other. We also know that when the
> printing industry geared up, one of the things it produced was cookbooks,
> and many of them (by the 16th C) clearly for a mass market that was by no
> means noble.
>
>You may be correct here. My knowledge of "late" period is not strong. It
>appears as if we are talking of two different worlds. My area of interest
>and my observations and opinions are mainly based on the "feudal" Middle Ages
>and dwindles off to nill about mid-Renaissance. Since there were Nobles and
>serfs in the time I am interested in, I would have little or no concern for a
>wealthy class outside of those main categories. My views on Medieval cookery
>certainly fall within Feudal times 100%.
The duplication of recipes is well established by the 1300s; and we have no
extant sources from England that we can reliably date before the early
1200s. Platina was set in print in the last quarter of the 15th C. What
constitutes "feudal" times depends on location as well as date, and is to
some degree a matter of dispute even among professional historians. But
much of the English corpus dates from times that are clearly pre-renaissance,
and shows clear evidence of sharing of manuscripts.
>starting point and/or areas of interest that cause us to respond to any given
>post. Such is our case, you're extremely interesting posts are appear to be
>based on late period. Mine on pre-Renaissance which is what makes this list
>so stimulating.
Nope. My interests end pretty precisely with the 15th C. I mentioned the
mass market, because it is unlikely that a market suddenly sprang into
existence in such a way that early printers decided that cookbooks were a
good bet. But the earliest extant northern european manuscript, from the
early 13th century, survives in four manuscripts: two in Danish, one in
Icelandic, and one in Low German. (The original text, which has not
survived, is believed to have been in Middle Low German.) The evidence
of circulation goes back as far as evidence of the existence of collections
does.
Cheers,
- -- Katerine/Terry
From: Varju at aol.com
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 10:57:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Period Recipes
Duke Cariadoc writes:
<<Domostroi has a few recipes, and Russia is in Eastern Europe. There is a
17th c. Hungarian translation of a 16th century German cookbook; I have
photocopies of both. What is your one period Hungarian recipe, and where is
it from?>>
I would be interested in more information on how to locate copies of the
Domostroi and the cookbook you mention. My one recipe I found a translation
of in _The Cuisine of Hungary_ by George Lang. It is from a manuscript of
four recipes that were served at the wedding feast of Mattyas Covinus in
1475. Lang provides a translation of two of the recipes, a carp dish and
the one I use, Savanyu Vetrece (Sour Vetrece). Not quite cutting edge
research on period cooking, but I did end up with a quite tasty recipe.
Noemi
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:58:08 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - Period Recipes
Varju at aol.com wrote:
> I would be interested in more information on how to locate copies of the
> Domostroi and the cookbook you mention. My one recipe I found a translation
> of in _The Cuisine of Hungary_ by George Lang. It is from a manuscript of
> four recipes that were served at the wedding feast of Mattyas Covinus in
> 1475. Lang provides a translation of two of the recipes, a carp dish and
> the one I use, Savanyu Vetrece (Sour Vetrece). Not quite cutting edge
> research on period cooking, but I did end up with a quite tasty recipe.
>
> Noemi
For what it's worth (being a secondary source and all, but still having
as much ultimate validity as protogulyas ; ) ) Lang also has a book
called _Transylvanian Cuisine_, also with some old recipes. Some are
from the aforementioned Saxons living in Hungary. It's not immediately
clear how old some of these recipes are, but they are certainly
interesting.
Adamantius
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 10:26:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Period Recipes
At 10:57 AM -0400 6/10/97, Varju at aol.com wrote:
>I would be interested in more information on how to locate copies of the
>Domostroi and the cookbook you mention.
An English translation of _Domostroi_ was published a few years back by
Cornell University Press. The 17th c. Hungarian translation of a German
cookbook I have a photocopy of--also the German one. I do not believe that
English translations of either exist.
David/Cariadoc
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 23:53:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Period Recipes
At 3:54 PM -0400 6/10/97, Varju at aol.com wrote:
>I will have to try looking for the _Domostroi_ when I'm at the library nextt.
> Are the Hungarian translation or its German counterpart in modern Hungarian
>or German?
The Hungarian translation is in 17th century Hungarian, that being when it
was published, and the German original in 16th century German.
David/Cariadoc
From: Stephen Bloch <sbloch at adl15.adelphi.edu>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 07:35:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SC - Re: Fabulous Feasts
> So far as availability of other sources at the time is concerned, I am
> reasonably sure that _Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books_ predates
> _Fabulous Feasts_ by quite a bit.
The EETS edition of _Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books_ is copyright
1888, reprinted 1964. _A Fifteenth Century Cookry Boke_, which contains
most or all of the same source, was published in a mass-market form (by
Scribner's) in 1962. The latter gives most or all of the recipes in the
same source, in Middle English without translation, redaction, or
commentary, but with a moderately-accurate glossary in the back, and
with with hand-drawn illustrations that will make even the average
costume-ignorant SCAdian laugh.
Lorna Sass's _To the King's Taste_ was originally printed in 1975, and
is much better documented than _Fabulous Feasts_. Sass too makes some
questionable substitutions for hard-to-find ingredients (many of which
are easier to find now), but she documents each recipe individually
and distinguishes clearly among the original recipe, her translation
into modern English, and her redaction.
But I had the same impression on reading _Fabulous Feasts_ as the
original poster: there's a lot of information here, which seems to reach
a low point in the actual recipes. Could anybody who's familiar with
sumptuary laws, sanitation laws, and the other subjects Cosman touches
on tell us how accurate those parts of the book are?
mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib
Stephen Bloch
sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu
http://www.adelphi.edu/~sbloch/
Math/CS Dept, Adelphi University
From: maddie teller-kook <meadhbh at io.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:20:35 -0500
Subject: SC - cookbook web site
i stumbled across this site on the web. they have a large number of
cookbooks for order. I have never ordered from them (at least haven't
ordered from them yet)..so i am not sure how reliable they are.
the address is: http://www1.shore.net/~foodbks/
meadhbh
From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 14:26:18 -0500
Subject: Re: SC - Types of food to serve non-medieval food people
Go to a book store. Order the second edition of Hieatt, Hosington, and
Butler, _Pleyn Delit_. (Sorry, ISBN not available; all my books are
packed. It came out recently, and is available relatively cheap in
paperback.) You will find dozens of excellent worked-out recipes that
can safely be fed to anyone (I've fed this kind of stuff to my mother,
who is very fussy, and not the least interested in the middle ages).
Good luck!
- -- Katerine/Terry
From: "Sharon L. Harrett" <afn24101 at afn.org>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:27:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: SC - SC-Cookbooks
On 2 Jul 1997, Marisa Herzog wrote:
> What would really be cool though would be a really comprehensive glossary of
> terms. It never fails that the one word I can't figure out on my own is not
> in whatever glossary a books editor or author has provided.
Marisa:
There is one in print that is very good, called "A Gode Cooke's
Glossarie", compiled by Susan J. Evans. She, known in the SCA as Mistress
Shoshonnah Jehanne ferch Emrys, is the owner of Falconwood Press, which is
dedicated to producing reprints of facsimile manuscripts for the SCA. She
has recently moved to Florida, and I do not have her current mailing
address, but her e-mail is woofie at sm1.gte.net. Check with her about a
catalog of her books.
Ceridwen
From: "Susan J. Evans" <woofie at gte.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 16:31:08 -0400
Subject: SC - Falconwood Press books
> There is one in print that is very good, called "A Gode Cooke's
>Glossarie", compiled by Susan J. Evans. She, known in the SCA as Mistress
>Shoshonnah Jehanne ferch Emrys, is the owner of Falconwood Press, which is
>dedicated to producing reprints of facsimile manuscripts for the SCA. She
>has recently moved to Florida, and I do not have her current mailing
>address, but her e-mail is woofie at sm1.gte.net. Check with her about a
>catalog of her books.
>
>Ceridwen
Why, thank you, (blush, blush)
Current mailing address is: Susan J. Evans, 25350 US 19, Apt. 346,
Clearwater, FL 34623
(Please do not put SCA name or "Falconwood" on envelope - this complex has
one of those mailbox rooms with all the boxes together and things go astray
even with the right name.)
E-mail is woofie at gte.net (no "sml" in address)
Shoshonnah
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:05:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Re: SC-Cookbooks
At 9:46 AM -0400 7/3/97, Cindy Renfrow wrote:
>I agree with an earlier poster that you should include the transcribed
>original, as well as your translation - this makes your work verifiable and
>far more valuable.
To expand on this a little ... .
If you publish only your "modernization," the reader may be stuck with your
mistakes and no way to correct them. For example, _Stir it Wele_ (the Pepys
manuscript) has a bunch of 15th c. recipes in both modernized and
facsimile. One of the modernized versions tells you to seal a pot tightly
so that no egg can escape. The only problem is that there is no egg in the
recipe. The original word was "eir," which the modernizer took to be a 15th
c. spelling of egg ("eyren" is fairly common for "eggs") but actually meant
"air."
David/Cariadoc
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 18:40:41 -0500
From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Subject: Re: SC - cheesecake
Hi, Katerine here. Stefan asked about the AN cookbook. The
redactions, so far as I know, are Joshua's wife's and available
(if at all) only privately through them. The edited collections
(there are actually two; but both are quite small) are available
with translations at most academic libraries, as they were
published as an article in _Speculum_; the reference is
Hieatt, Constance B. and Jones, Robin F., Two Anglo-
Norman Culinary Collections Edited from British Library
Manuscripts Additional 32085 and Royal 12.C.xii,
_Speculum_ 61/4 (1986), 859-882.
- -- Katerine/Terry
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:59:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Christina M. Krupp" <ckrupp at zoo.uvm.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - cookbooks
On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Debra Hense wrote:
> _Libre de Sent Sovi_.
> Libre del Coch_
>
> Where, how, who do I contact to obtain copies of these books? And a copy
> of a Catalan dictionary? thanks so much for any and all answers.
Greetings! This isn't exactly an answer to your question, but it might
help you in the meanwhile! There's a fairly recent cookbook that includes
70 medieval Mediterranean-area recipes. Her sources include the Libre de
Sent Sovi and Libre del Coch, as well as Maestro Martino's Libro de Arte
Coquinaria (mid 15th-C.), and the Cuoco Napolitano (late 15th-C.). She
has a nice introduction explaining how these sources, and others, relate
to each other in terms of chronology and recipe-borrowing. The recipes are
given in their original language, then translated, then redacted. Her
redactions seem quite reasonable (no odd ingredients or absurd
substitutions!) I've been very pleased with the recipes I've tried so far!
The book is:
Santich, Barbara. The Original Mediterranean Cuisine: medieval recipes for
today. Chicago Review Press, 1995. $15.95, paperback. ISBN: 155652272X.
- -- Marieke van de Dal
Mountain Freehold
East Kingdom
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:54:57 -0500 (CDT)
From: nweders at mail.utexas.edu (ND Wederstrandt)
Subject: Re: SC - Types of Feasts...
Gunthar said:
I am unsure of how old this practice is but knowledge of period
Scandanavian cooking is very sketchy.
FYI There are two 13th century Danish cookbooks floating around somewhere
as well as an Old Icelandic Medical Book from roughly that period as well.
I recently read an article comparing the recipes from them with English and
French recipes of the same name.
Clare St. John
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:29:28 +0000
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Danish cooking
And it came to pass on 18 Sep 97, that Michael F. Gunter wrote:
> > FYI There are two 13th century Danish cookbooks floating wround somewhere
> > as well as an Old Icelandic Medical Book from roughly that period as well.
> > I recently read an article comparing the recipes from them with English and
> > French recipes of the same name.
> >
> > Clare St. John
>
> I would love to get my hands on these! Does anybody know how to get
> them?
>
> Gunthar
In "Du Manuscrit a la Table," a 1992 volume of essays on medieval
food published by the University of Montreal, there is an article on
this subject: "Sources of Medieval Cuisine in Denmark" by Bi Skaarup.
It mentions a collection of recipes, dating around 1300. There are 2
different versions. One has 25 recipes; the other, 31. Both appear
to derive from a now-lost French cookbook. According to a footnote,
Rudolf Grewe and Constance Hieatt are preparing a new edition of
these manuscripts.
Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 21:09:47 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Types of Feasts...
ND Wederstrandt wrote:
> FYI There are two 13th century Danish cookbooks floating wround somewhere
> as well as an Old Icelandic Medical Book from roughly that period as well.
> I recently read an article comparing the recipes from them with English and
> French recipes of the same name.
All true. The only problem is that they appear to describe a cuisine
very different from what little we do know about Scandinavian eating
habits of the period. The combination of the ingredients used, the
similarity to some of the roughly contemporary French recipes that
exist, AND the fact that one of the manuscripts appears to have been
translated/copied by a Danish physician who went to medical school on
the Mediterranean coast (Montpelliere?), suggests the possibility that
these are, in fact, different Scandinavian manuscript copies of the same
Mediterranean cookbook.
Very, very, cool, though, nonetheless.
Adamantius
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:48:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: nweders at mail.utexas.edu (ND Wederstrandt)
Subject: Re: SC - Danish cooking
>In "Du Manuscrit a la Table," a 1992 volume of essays on medieval
>food published by the University of Montreal, there is an article on
>this subject: "Sources of Medieval Cuisine in Denmark" by Bi Skaarup.
>
>It mentions a collection of recipes, dating around 1300. There are 2
>different versions. One has 25 recipes; the other, 31. Both appear
>to derive from a now-lost French cookbook. According to a footnote,
>Rudolf Grewe and Constance Hieatt are preparing a new edition of
>these manuscripts.
>
There is also an article by Constance Hieatt called "Sorting
through the Titles of Medieval Dishes: What Is, os Is Not, a "Blanc
manger." in which the two Danish cookbooks are discussed. The article is
found in Food in the Middle Ages by Melitta Weiss Adamson, Garland Pub. Co.
1995. It's a collection of essays about various aspects of medieval food.
Hieatt mentions Grewe and his presentation of a paper about the books in
1985. The unfortunate problem is that the articles merely hint at really
interesting recipes. One article hints at a green mousse prepared with
parsley, or Young Raven and Starling...
I would like to include one recipe I found I would to try. It is called Durden
Wildu ein durden machen, so nym mangolt vnd petersily, vnd daz
sneid alz chlain durich ein ander, vnd wasch ez dann aus eim frischen
wazzer, vnd reib kes dar vnder, vnd tu ein smalcz dar ein vnd ayerr, vnd
mach dann pleter aus taig, vnd pach ez In einer pfannen, vnd tu ayerr
totern oben dar auff, vnd la ez woll pachen. etc.
If your wish to make Durden, take chard, salt and parsley; chop and
wash them in fresh water, grate cheese in to the mixture and add lard and
eggs. Roll the dough flat, and place it in a pan. Bake it and put egg
yolk on the cake and bake until done.
Helmut Birkhan, "Some Remarks on Medieval Cooking: The
Ambas Recipe-Collection of Cod. Vind. 5486
Clare R. St. John
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:41:14 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Ein Guter Spise
Ein Buoch Von Guter Spise is on the Web at:
http://cs-www.bu.edu/students/grads/akatlas/Buch/buch.html
Adamantius
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 23:47:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Varju at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Classes: More Last Minute Tips Requests
<<I found a Rose Doughnut recipe that I am incorporating--I think Noemi
posted it originally. Can I get biblio information on the book of
origin?>>
The original source is: _The Book of Mihaly Szent-Benedeki_, August 10, 1601
I found the translation in: _The Cuisine of Hungary_, George Lang, pub. in
1990 by Bonanza Books, dist by Crown Publishers, Inc. New York, copyright
1971 by George Lang, recipe is on page 26.
Noemi
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:55:08 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: SC - Islamic Sources (was Re:Your Name)
Aoife asks:
>Lastly, do you have any good Arabic sources? I want to come up with some
>decent recipes for Baronial Investiture, cause I think the person who will
>probabbly win for Baron is Christian-Byzantine... I'm going to look in
>the Miscellany for Arabic stuff...
The Miscellany has in fact got a lot of worked-up Islamic recipes. If you
want to find the original sources, what we know about in translation
includes: (1) al-Bagdadi: 13th c., translated by Arberry and published in
Islamic Culture in the 30's, included in Cariadoc's cookbook collection
vol. 1; lots of detailed recipes; (2) ibn al Mubarrad, translated by
Charles Perry 10 or 15 years back and published in Petits Propos
Culinaires, also included in Cariadoc's vol. 1; moderate number of very
terse recipes--almost no spicing mentioned; (3) an anonymous Andalusian
cookbook, translated by Charles Perry and included in Cariadoc's collection
vol. 2; lots of stuff evidently copied from more than one source, including
a section on medicinals.
My guess is that there have got to be Byzantine cookbooks out there
somewhere, but we have never succeeded in finding any.
Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:59:36 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Cookbooks
James and/or Nancy Gilly wrote:
> Looking for opinions and commentary on the following cookbooks (some of
> which, I'm sure, have already been discussed here, but....):
>
> The Medieval Cookbook (Maggie Black)
Not familiar with that one.
> All Manners of Food
Stephen Mennell is the author, IIRC. Excellent and informative, but I
never really thought of it as a cookbook.
> The Art of Cookery in the Middle Ages (Terence Scully)
Again, excellent. Everything Scully does is a marvelous work of
scholarship. However, the man can't cook, in my opinion, and for all the
fine detail he discusses in his translations of Taillevent or Chiquart,
little of that detail is observed in his redactions, which are, to me,
just a cut above the dread Dr. Cosman. Not that he garnishes with red
licorice whips, mind you, or makes frumenty from Grape-Nuts, but I did
say a cut above. This is more applicable to the next named volume,
though... . All in all "The Art of Cookery...etc." is a better book than
the next one on the list. I'd buy both anyway, though.
> Early French Cookery (D Eleanor Scully & Terence Scully)
Again, full of useful information, but don't actually cook from it. I
found the fact that the original recipes are given, in medieval French,
but not translated directly, except in the form of redactions that are
obviously rather liberal in their interpretation, to be quite maddening.
Often I found myself wondering whether something was an instruction from
the original recipe, or something Scully had made up. Not being a
scholar in the field of medieval French, it was frustrating, to say the
least. However, his information about medieval foodways, the development
of period cookery trends, humoural medicine, and even (or especially)
his fictional account of a couple of days in the life of a generic
medieval chef, named Chiquart but based equally on Taillevent and
others, makes the book worth the price of admission in spite of its
obvious shortcomings.
> Fast and Feast (Bridget Ann Henisch)
Very useful stuff. Again, this is more of a book about cooks and
cookery, and about eating habits, rather than a cookbook.
For those with unlimited disposable income, I'd say get 'em all.
Otherwise, start with Mennell, the first Scully book mentioned, and
Henisch.
Adamantius
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 06:52:51 +0200 (METDST)
From: Par Leijonhufvud <parlei at ki.se>
Subject: Re: SC - Cookbooks
On Sun, 26 Oct 1997, James and/or Nancy Gilly wrote:
> Looking for opinions and commentary on the following cookbooks (some of
> which, I'm sure, have already been discussed here, but....):
>
> The Medieval Cookbook (Maggie Black)
Fairly good introductionary text. Some recipies (fewer than the number of
pages makes you think), but plenty of interesting information on cooking
and eating to make up for the lack. The book I generally recommend
beginers, since it gets them started right.
/UlfR
- --
Par Leijonhufvud par.leijonhufvud at labtek.ki.se
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:58:18 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Domestroi
At 1:47 PM -0800 10/29/97, Mike C. Baker wrote:
>Is there an accepted "best" edition of the Domestroi, particularly
>in translation? (best of all would be a parallel or facing-page
>edition!)
To the best of my knowledge and belief, there is only one published English
translation of _Domostroi_, from Cornell University Press.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:15:35 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Paprika Dishes
>The few recioes I have seen do not contain paprika. Unfotunately, I have
>them third hand, (translations in _The Cuisine of Hungary_) and only seven
>recipes from a book published in 1601. It has been a consideration to do
>some research on this subject once I'm done with my other research. . .
Lang refers to a manuscript in the Scechenyi Library of Budapest,
apparently from the early 16th c., and containing "almost seven hundred
recipes." You might start by trying to get a photocopy of that and
translating it.
Incidentally, it looks as though the seven recipes (which I seem to have
somehow missed when I first looked through the book long ago) are not all
from the 1601 source--some are from the earlier manuscript. But he doesn't
say which.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:17:44 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - new to the list
> Glad to have you onboard--the more the merrier! To dive right in--would
>you happen to have any good period Dutch cookbooks to recomend?
There is a 16th century Dutch cookbook that was published in facsimile as
_Het Eerste Nederlandsche Gedrukte Kookboek_. Does your friend read Dutch?
Is Floris interested in doing a translation?
David/Cariadoc
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 16:23:24 -0600 (CST)
From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming )
Subject: SC - Dutch Cookbooks
Greetings! There is a good cookery book called _The Sensible Cook_,
Dutch Foodways in the Old and the New World. It is translated and
edited by Peter Rose, Syracuse University Press, 1989, ISBN
0-8156-0241-3. It is a translation of _De Verstandige Kock_. The
original book was published in 1667 which puts it at about the time of
Robert May whose cookery book some of us "accept". The book is
illustrated with black and white photos of Dutch paintings.
Alys Katharine
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:15:41 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - period feast menus
At 11:04 AM +0000 11/14/97, Mark Harris wrote:
>David/Cariadoc said:
>
>>Chiquart makes it clear that he intends to serve two meals each day. The
>>big 16th c. German cookbook I have (admittedly, a little late for medieval)
>>gives lots of menus, each in the form of an early meal and a night meal, I
>>assume lunch and dinner.
>
>Cariadoc, what is the name of this German cookbook?
It is by Max Rumpolt; I'll have some of it up on my page soon.
>Is there an English translation?
Not yet--do you have any volunteers.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:15:36 -0600
From: Maddie Teller-Kook <meadhbh at io.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Pleyn Delit question
S.Albert wrote:
> Earlier someone mentioned that the second edition of Pleyn Delit was okay,
> but watch out for the first edition. How does one tell which edition one
> has? Mine was acquired millions of years ago, probably from Poison Pen
> Press, which got the remaindered ones. It was published by Toronto Press,
> copyright 1976, revised and reprinted in 1979, and it's a first paperback
> edition 1979. Which one is it? I didn't know there was an edition
> difference.
>
> Morgana
Actually, I am disappointed in the most recent edition of Pleyn Delit.
Some of the recipes do not have the original recipe along with it. The
earlier editions do. There may have been some corrections done in the
second edition but again, not including the original recipe along with
the translation disappointed me.
Meadhbh
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:04:54 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - novice questions part ii
At 5:08 PM -0800 12/15/97, kappler wrote:
>Oh, I forgot, I have a copy of Pleyn Delit by Hieatt, Hosington and Butler,
>any comments as to its value?
Primary sources are more fun to work from than secondary sources, since you
get to figure out the recipe yourself. With that caveat, Pleyn Delit is, so
far as I know, the most reliable secondary source out there.
David/Cariadoc
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:09:30 EST
From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Pleyn Delit question
<< Actually, I am disappointed in the most recent edition of Pleyn Delit.
Some of the recipes do not have the original recipe along with it. The
earlier editions do. There may have been some corrections done in the
second edition but again, not including the original recipe along with
the translation disappointed me.
Meadhbh
>>
My apologies for ommiting this tidbit. You are certainly correct, M'Lady. The
revised recipes, however, where so much closer to how I would have done them
that I inadvertently skipped over the missing documentation, having it readily
on hand from the first edition. Sorry. :-)
Ras
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:58:18 EST
From: Varju <Varju at aol.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Eastern European Cookery
Supposedly there are two cookbooks fthe late 1500's early 1600's in the
Szechenyi Library in Budapest and a manuscript that contains four recipes
served at the wedding of the Hungarian king Mattyas Hollos in 1475 that is in
a library in Munich. (This is the original cource of my Sour Vetrece recipe)
The problem in both cases would be language, although the earlier manuscript
might be in Latin since that was the language of commerce in Hungary at the
time.
Noemi
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:24:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Russell Gilman-Hunt <conchobar at rocketmail.com>
Subject: SC - "first catch your peacock
Courtesy of Amazon.com:
Bobby Freeman has also wrote "Good Food From Wales",
and I presume it's not full of senseless blubbering.
Good Food from Wales
by Bobby Freeman
List: $24.95
Our Price: (this is not a commercial)
Availability: This title usually ships within 2-3 days.
Please note: we cannot guarantee delivery of this item by
December 24. Visit the Gift Center for books with 24-hour
availability.
Hardcover, 332 pages
Published by Hippocrene Books
Publication date: May 1, 1997
ISBN: 0781805279
Synopsis:
With over 260 recipes, this book is the definitive guide to Welsh food
and customs through the centuries. Introductory chapters trace the
evolution of important Welsh foodstuffs: cereals, cheese and butter,
poultry and eggs, meat, fish, and fruits, flowers, and vegetables.
Later chapters include recipes for traditional favorites like
Blackberry Bread Pudding, Welsh Salt Duck, and Trout with Bacon.
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:04:33 -0600 (CST)
From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming)
Subject: SC - Re: Worm Recipe (plus a "new" book)
By the bye, I received a copy of _The Elixirs of Nostradamus_
("Nostradamus' original recipes for elixirs, scented water, beauty
potions and sweetmeats"), edited by Knut Boeser, printed by Moyer Bell,
1994. ISBN is 1-55921-155-5. Most of his facial and skin preparations
include lead and other dangerous compounds.
The second part of this book contains sweetmeats: preserved lemon
peel, pumpkins, bitter oranges, walnuts, bitter cherries; a transparent
jelly from bitter cherries and one from quinces (Who was looking for
documentation for jelly??); ginger water; preserving roots of eryngos,
welted thistle; preserving limes, quinces, unripe almonds; preserving
the peel or rind of alkanet; candied sugar; pine-nut kernel confection;
marzipan; and penide sugar.
A comment on the recipe for a confection from pine-nut kernels: There
is a painting in the Cleveland Museum of Art from the Renaissance which
has, I am convinced, a picture of this confection. I had been on the
prowl for art work with confections and spotted this in an alcove. I
sketched the candy which is somewhat cube-shaped with white ovals in
it. Only after I read this recipe did the picture and the recipe come
together. Now I need to find pine nuts and try it out.
Alys Katharine
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:42:08 -0800
From: "Crystal A. Isaac" <crystal at pdr-is.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Byzantine cooking
Dan Gillespie (Antoine) wrote:
>
> Just a quick question, out of curiosity...
> Does anyone know of any period cooking sources from the Byzantine
> empire? There is Apicius & the Greek originals that it is supposed based
> on, but is there anything later than that?
There is a 6th century letter on food health and correct eating for
kings by Anthimus, a Byzantine physician to Theoderic, King of the
Franks(circa 526). It has been translated by Shirley Howard Weber in her
dissertation, _Anthimus, De Observatio Ciborum: Text, Commentary, and
Glossary with a Study of the Latinity. A Dissertation..._ and published
by E. J. Brill Ltd., Leiden 1924. It's English translation with the
Latin on the facing pages; includes a glossary and index. There's a copy
in the Stanford University Library.
I recently saw another translation but do not remember the translator's
name. I think I saw it in Potboiler press, NY.
If anyone has another source for Byzantine cooking I would love to hear
about it. I wanted to do a Byzantine feast but could not find enough
material.
in service,
Crystal of the Westermark, AoA
(mka Crystal A. Isaac)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:48:36 -0700 (MST)
From: "Jamey R. Lathrop" <jlathrop at unm.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Byzantine cooking
On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Crystal A. Isaac wrote:
> There is a 6th century letter on food health and correct eating for
> kings by Anthimus, a Byzantine physician to Theoderic, King of the
> Franks(circa 526). It has been translated by Shirley Howard Weber in her
> dissertation, _Anthimus, De Observatio Ciborum: Text, Commentary, and
> Glossary with a Study of the Latinity. A Dissertation..._ and published
> by E. J. Brill Ltd., Leiden 1924. It's English translation with the
>
> I recently saw another translation but do not remember the translator's
> name. I think I saw it in Potboiler press, NY.
> Crystal of the Westermark, AoA
I recently purchased the Mark Grant translation from the Food Heritage
Press:
_ANTHIMUS: De obseruatione ciborum, ON THE OBSERVANCE OF FOODS_,
Prospect Books, 1996. ISBN 0907325 750
It also has the latin and english on opposite pages for comparison, along
with historical information and great notes.
Lady Allegra Beati
Barony of al-Barran
Outlands
<the end>