cb-rv-Apicius-msg - 2/22/08
Reviews of various modern cookbooks containing recipes from the medieval Apicius recipe manuscripts.
NOTE: See also the files: Cheap-Apicius-art, fd-Romans-msg, Latin-msg, cookbooks-msg, cookbooks-bib, Roman-Recipes-art. cookbooks-SCA-msg, redacting-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
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Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: mike hobbs <llewmike at mail.bright.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Preserving meat
Date: 3 Oct 1996 23:01:33 GMT
Organization: BrightNet Ohio
Agreed that Vehling's translations are poor but as Flowers and Rosenbaum point out, they are not based on the earliest available copies of Apicius but a later more humanistically enhanced version from the later Middle Ages. Yes, Flowers and Rosenbaum is the single best translation and I am using it to double check my own Apiciius translations as I have taken on the project of translating De Re Coquinaria for my laurel. Another excellent translation (of at least a small
part) are the translations by Ilaria Gozzini Giacosa in a Taste of Ancient Rome.
LLEWELLYN
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:22:16 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - Epicious (sp?) and decedent roman feasts....
rebecca tants wrote:
> A friend and I are putting in a bid to run this upcoming winter's
> Feast of the Seven Deadly Sins. Another friend thought it
> would be a nice idea for us todo a decedent Roman feast.
>
> Epicious is the obvious reference, but I don't have a copy.
> My first question therefore is where to get one.
Marcus Gavius Apicius is _believed_ to be the person for whom the book
is named. It is called, properly, something like "Apicius De Re
Quoquinaria", and whether anybody named Apicius is tha actual author is
in some question. Probably the best English translation is by Barbara
Flower and Elizabeth Rosenbaum, done in the late 1950's. It gives on one
page the text in Latin, and the English translation on the facing page.
While there are no redactions per se, there are footnotes with a lot of
useful information. There is a text translation by a fellow named
Vehling; you should probably stay away from this one as it has a number
of textual errors: Vehling was a professional cook who was unfortunately
not well educated outside his area of specialization.
One of the most recent books on Apicius is John Edwards' "The Roman
Cookery of Apicius", Hartley and Marks, New York, 1984. It doesn't
really offer a translation of Apicius, but rather a text on Roman
cookery with copious translated recipes, some of which are adapted for
the modern kitchen. It doesn't really adhere to any work style of any
other secondary source I've seen. I'd say it's pretty good, with one
warning: it seems as though a number of the recipes as adapted call for
ingredients that no first-century Roman would bother with. My belief
isn't that Edwards decided that people living to the north of Rome might
have, say, substituted butter for oil when browning meat, but rather
that nobody would care. The distinct possibility is that such
substitutions might have been made by, say, the Romanised British, but
Edwards doesn't mention this possibility, and it's hard to tell
sometimes when he is tinkering with a recipe or presenting it as
originally written.
> My second question is if there are other references that would
> go with this theme. I've been concentrating on northern
> european sources due to the language barrier, but am open to
> suggestions given the 6 months I have to try and figure them out.
The Flower and Rosenbaum Apicius translation includes sections on the
making of such things as amulum (amydoun to you medieval folks), cheese,
bread (I think), wine, and the ubiquitous aged fish sauce called
liquamen or garum. These sections are based on works by people like Cato
the Elder, Columella, and Pliny the Elder.
Another common source for researching this is Petronius' "Satyricon",
which is, as the title suggests, a satire, from around the same time as
Apicius. There is a fairly detailed description of a "decadent Roman
feast", but being satire, it's hard to tell how accurate it is. Bear in
mind that for most of Rome's history as a world power, there were just
as many people trying to preserve the ancient Roman virtues of
motherhood, frugality, and unseasoned porridge ; ), as there were
eating fricaseed hummingbird tongues.
Adamantius
From: "Nick Sasso (fra niccolo)" <grizly at mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 12:15:49 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - Epicious (sp?) and decedent roman feasts....
> It is called, properly, something like "Apicius De Re
> Quoquinaria", and whether anybody named Apicius is tha actual author
> is
> in some question. Probably the best English translation is by Barbara
> Flower and Elizabeth Rosenbaum, done in the late 1950's.
> .........................
The original title, quoted from the above text, is _Artis Magiricae_.
Indeed credited to Apicius and speculatively so. There is a fine
treatment on the Apicius text called _A Taste of Ancient Rome_ by Ilaria
Gozzini Giacosa (translated by Anna Herklotz). It is a useful mix of
translation, commentary, and redaction. The redactions are well
explained and seem to make sense, a feat in itself. There are also
sections on Banquets, menus, beverages, and food sources. I have found
it a useful source for 'Apician' cookery.
> The Flower and Rosenbaum Apicius translation includes sections on the
> making of such things as amulum (amydoun to you medieval folks),
> cheese,
> bread (I think), wine, and the ubiquitous aged fish sauce called
> liquamen or garum. These sections are based on works by people like
> Cato
> the Elder, Columella, and Pliny the Elder.
As does Giacosa. Both are good references on the same primary (?)
text. I am still in quest of other Roman quisine treatments. I've
found a couple ancient Greek books that I am reviewing, but thise won't
be quite the same (though there will be some similarity). I'll post my
findings when I'm finished reading them.
> Adamantius
- --
In Humble Service to God and Crown;
fra nicolo difrancesco
(mka nick sasso)
From: "Nick Sasso (fra niccolo)" <grizly at mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 12:19:41 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - Epicious (sp?) and decedent roman feasts....adendum
Oops,
I found among the numerous biliography entries the title to Apicius
referenced.......
_De re coquinaria_ was correct. My appologies.
niccolo
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 12:55:56 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - Epicious (sp?) and decedent roman feasts....
Nick Sasso (fra niccolo) wrote:
> The original title, quoted from the above text, is _Artis Magiricae_.
> Indeed credited to Apicius and speculatively so. There is a fine
> treatment on the Apicius text called _A Taste of Ancient Rome_ by Ilaria
> Gozzini Giacosa (translated by Anna Herklotz). It is a useful mix of
> translation, commentary, and redaction. The redactions are well
> explained and seem to make sense, a feat in itself. There are also
> sections on Banquets, menus, beverages, and food sources. I have found
> it a useful source for 'Apician' cookery.
You're right about the title; it does appear that way in one of the
manuscripts, and is in an odd place in the Flower/Rosenbaum text, so I
had to look through the Introduction to find it. Apparently the earliest
manuscript known gives the name of another author (perhaps a
scribe/editor?) but says this is Apicius' book, hence the confusion as
to whether Apicius (whoever he may have been) actually wrote it. "De Re
Quoquinaria" is the title of one of the manuscript sources, though.
Sorry to write down the first one I came to, though, which might have
misled some folks.
> As does Giacosa. Both are good references on the same primary (?)
> text. I am still in quest of other Roman quisine treatments. I've
> found a couple ancient Greek books that I am reviewing, but thise won't
> be quite the same (though there will be some similarity). I'll post my
> findings when I'm finished reading them.
I met a man who is active in the Culinary Historians of New York who
referred obliquely to some Byzantine source; I'll have to get more
information from him. I don't believe he was talking about the
physician's letter that I believe His Grace Cariadoc was speaking of...
Adamantius
From: maddie teller-kook <meadhbh at io.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 15:06:56 -0500
Subject: Re: SC - Epicious (sp?) and decedent roman feasts....
Greetings..
Try to find a copy of "Tastes of Ancient Rome" by Ilaria Giacosa. I have
seen it in paperback at a few bookstores (Borders and BookStop are 2).
It has recipes by Apicius and Cato and an excellent section describing
how a Roman dinner is set up, dishes to serve, entertainment, etc.
meadhbh
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 22:18:11 -0500
From: Maddie Teller-Kook <meadhbh at io.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Apicius-question
Uduido at aol.com wrote:
> << I believe it's somewhere in the Flower/Rosenbuam Apicius translation. >>
>
> This is the translation that I have owned for the last 15 years and the one I
> am most familiar with. I also bought the Vehling translation at War this
> year. My question is which of the 2 translations is most valuable to a
> student of cookery?
>
> Lord Ras
I would have to say the Flowers book is the best one (as translation). I
also use Edwards book and Giacosa's book to verify translation and
consistent ingredients in the recipes.
Flowers/Rosenbaum were Latinists.. therefore, I think there translation
is the best one.
Vehling, IMHO, is not very useful at all. I don't find his recipes
translated as well as those in Flowers/Rosenbaum or Giacosa. I have a
copy, just to have it. I don't use it for any of my Roman cooking.
meadhbh
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 00:05:04 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Apicius-question
Uduido at aol.com wrote:
> << I believe it's somewhere in the Flower/Rosenbuam Apicius
> translation. >>
>
> This is the translation that I have owned for the last 15 years and the one I
> am most familiar with. I also bought the Vehling translation at War this
> year. My question is which of the 2 translations is most valuable to a
> student of cookery?
Tough call. If I remember Vehling and his translation, he was a
professional cook with an interest in history, while Flower and
Rosenbaum were professional scholars with an interest in cookery. My
general impression is that the ladies practiced their hobby a bit better
than Vehling did his. All in all, I'd have to go with Flower/Rosenbaum.
Adamantius
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:22:44 -0500
From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Subject: Re: SC - Apicius-question
Hi, Katerine here. Lord Ras asked which of the Flower/Rosenbaum and
the Vehling translations of Apicius is more valuable. If your interest
is historical, Flower/Rosenbaum is the clear winner. Vehling was
probably a better cook, and his recipes read more like what one would
find in a cookbook by a fine modern chef. Unfortunately, what they
don't read much like is the recipes Apicius wrote. Some are transformed
pretty well beyond recognition.
There's a longish discussion of the Vehling translation on my web site;
start at http://www.cottagesoft.com/~jtn, follow the link for culinary
history, and from there, follow the link for sources and reviews.
- -- Katerine/Terry
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 18:18:49 -0500
From: Maddie Teller-Kook <meadhbh at io.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Apicius references
chuck_diters at mail.fws.gov wrote:
> Could one of the good and knowledgable gentles who have been
> responding to this thread post complete information for the several
> versions of Apicius that have been mentioned (I have Vehling, but
> others might not--so maybe all four: Vehling, Flower & Rosenbaum,
> Edwards, and Giacosa)?
>
> Bjarni
Of the four Apicius texts, my two favorites are the Giacosa book and the
translation by Flowers/Rosenbaum. Giacosa gives excellent information
with respect to utensils, customs and foods. Flowers/Rosenbaum do an
excellent job of translation. I compare all other translations to
theirs.
meadhbh
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 22:25:09 -0400
From: "Nick Sasso (fra niccolo)" <grizly at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Apicius references
Maddie Teller-Kook wrote:
> Of the four Apicius texts, my two favorites are the Giacosa book and the
> translation by Flowers/Rosenbaum. Giacosa gives excellent information
> with respect to utensils, customs and foods. Flowers/Rosenbaum do an
> excellent job of translation. I compare all other translations to
> theirs.
>
> meadhbh
Giacosa is also good about explaining WHY she made certain changes in
her redactions or translations as well as fitting foods and recipes into
the overall format of the meal. And the context of the food with the
regions they came from. Even suggestions as to what can be served with
what. Flowers/Rosenbaum will probably be long considered the benchmark
translation.
fra niccolo
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 10:17:29 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Apicius references
chuck_diters at mail.fws.gov wrote:
>
> Could one of the good and knowledgable gentles who have been
> responding to this thread post complete information for the several
> versions of Apicius that have been mentioned (I have Vehling, but
> others might not--so maybe all four: Vehling, Flower & Rosenbaum,
> Edwards, and Giacosa)?
The main books containing Apicius material that I own are:
"The Roman Cookery Book: a critical translation of The Art of Cooking by
Apicius" by Barbara Flower and Elisabeth Rosenbaum, copyright 1958 E.
Rosenbaum, pub. 1958 by George G. Harrap & Co., Ltd., London. Dewey
Decimal number 878.9 A642AR
<Sorry, my copy is pretty ancient (well, 1958, I guess) and contains no
ISBN or LoC number...
"The Roman Cookery of Apicius" by John Edwards, pub. Hartley and Marks,
1984, Point Richards, Washington. Text copyright 1984 John Edwards,
illustration copyright 1984 Hartley and Marks. ISBN 0-88179-008-7
I have heard that there are reprints of the Flower / Rosenbaum text
available, but have no other information about that...
In general I feel the Flower / Rosenbaum text is vastly superior to the
Edwards book, largely because Edwards seems to have been laboring under
the overall English culinary miasma that has really only begun to lift
at around the time his book was published. So, the Edwards text contains
recipes which recommend sauteeing in butter, as being more readily
available than olive oil, and liquamen made from canned salmon...I
suggest anyone use it with caution, although in Edwards' defense I have
to say that most of the really wild departures (i.e. a coconut garnish)
are identified as such.
The main problem for some with the Flower / Rosenbaum text is the fact
that it contains virtually no material redacted for the modern kitchen.
Personally, that doesn't bother me a bit, but it can be intimidating for
some.
Adamantius
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:00:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Uduido at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Here's the recipe
By the way, don't buy Vehling's book if you are looking for accuracy. It is
way off the mark in many ways including the use of green peppers instead of
green peppercorns and his insistence that green string beans, white and red
kidney beans, ad nauseum were used in Ancient Rome.
More to come later. 'Salem indere memento!' best describes the mind set you
should have when reading his works. :-)
Lord Ras
Date: 5 MAR 98 13:25:02 AES
From: RMcGrath at dca.gov.au
Subject: SC - Apicius
My friend Lesley sent me this address.
http://www.dl.ket.org/latin3/mores/food/cenbene.htm
short intro to Apicius. The things I learn from being on this list!
cheers
Rakhel Petrova
Date: 5 MAR 98 13:37:28 AES
From: RMcGrath at dca.gov.au
Subject: SC - More Apicius
At this web site,
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~mjw/recipes/ethnic/historical/ant-rom-coll.html
there are the following recipes, hints, etc.
Has anyone visited this site, and tried the recipes?
Contents
Native Roman Ingredients
Conversions
Isicia Omentata (A kind of Roman Burger)
Pepones et Melones (water and honey melons
Patina de pisciculis (souffle of small fishes)
Patina de Piris (pear souffle)
Minutal Marinum (seafood fricassee)
Gustum de Praecoquis (starter with apricots)
Fabaciae Virides et Baianae (Green and Baian Beans)
Pullum Frontonianum (Chicken a la Fronto)
Pullus Fusilis (Chicken With Liquid Filling)
Dulcia Domestica (Housemade Dessert)
Aliter Dulcia (Another Kind of Dessert)
Tiropatinam (A Kind of Soufflee)
Ova Sfongia Ex Lacte (Pancakes with Milk)
In Ovis Apalis (Boiled Eggs)
Vitellina Fricta (Fried Veal)
In Vitulinam Elixam (Boiled Veal)
Aliter Baedinam Sive Agninam Excaldatam(Steamed Lamb)
In Mitulis (Sea Mussels)
Sarda Ita Fit (Tuna)
Scillas (Big Shrimps)
Mustacei (= Must Rolls)
from the