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Latin-msg - 2/4/08

 

Learning Latin. Some basics. WWW course. Differences between Medieval and Classical Latin.

 

NOTE: See also the files: Latin-online-art, mottoes1-msg, languages-msg, literacy-msg, universities-msg, teaching-msg, Hist-English-lnks, Ital-Phrases-art.

 

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NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

 

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

   Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                         Stefan at florilegium.org

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Re: Latin Lovers?

Date: 3 Feb 92

From: gorilla at cats.ucsc.edu (Joe Mama)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz

 

Unto the good folk of the Rialto does John send his regards.

 

I have come across a piar of quaint books, entitled _Latin_For_All_Occasions

and _Latin_For_Even_More_Occasions which have all manner of obscure and

witty quotes in them, and their latin translations.

 

Wonderful stuff for .sigs

 

John

##################

John Ravenscroft of Glastonbury

Scribe of the College of St. David's            Chris Arnold

Barony of Darkwood,                    gorilla at cats.ucsc.edu

Principality of the Mists,

West Kingdom.

 

 

From: gunnora at bga.com (Gunnora Hallakarva)

CC: ansteorra at eden.com

Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:35:18 -0500

Subject: Learning Latin

 

Antoine said:

>I've been interested in learning some latin.  My French is doing

>pretty well, but I figure need Latin to even begin to be well

>rounded. I've picked up a couple of beginner Latin textbooks and

>have been going through them, but they don't help with pronunciation

>and I can only imagine how badly I butcher things.  (Although I

>suppose it wouldn't be TOO bad if I spoke Latin with a French accent.

>Do you have any suggestions as to how someone could reasonably begin

>to deal with Latin when they are out in the real world?  I know I'm

>not the only one who would be interested in this and your advice

>would be valuable.

 

Heilsa, Antoine.

 

First, as to the pronounciation of Latin, it is really very simple.  All

vowels are pronounced using standard Continental pronunciation... just like

French, in other words.

 

Long Vowels are indicated in Latin texts by a bar over the letter.  Long

Vowels are pronounced as follows:

 

long a = "a" as in "father"

long e = "e" as in "they"

long i = "i" as in "machine"

long o = "o" as in "hole"

long u = "u" as in "rude"

 

Short vowels are pronounced as follows:

short a = first "a" as in "aha"

short e = "e" as in "net"

short i = "i" as in "this"

short o = "o" as in "domain"

short u = "u" as in "full"

 

Diphthong pronounciation:

ae = "i" as in "like"

au = "ou" as in "round"

oe = "oi" as in "boil"

ei = "ei" as in "vein"

eu = short e + oo

ui is almost = "ui" in "ruin"

 

Consonant pronunciation:

c is always hard, like "k"

g is alwys hard, as in "go"

j = "y" as in "yes"

p is always as the "p" in "spin"

qu = "qu" as in "quick"

s is always as the "s" in "say"

t is always as the "t" in "stop"

x is always like "ks"

bs is pronounced "ps"

bt is pronounced "pt"

v is proncounced as "w"

ch is always hard as the "ch" in "Christmas"

ph = "p" as in "put"

th = "t" as in "ten"

 

Accent:

All words of two syllables are accented on the first syllable.  Three or

more syllables mean that the accent will be on the next-to-last syllable in

the word.

 

Learning the Latin Language:

Learning Latin is much easier than learning any of the living Romance

languages, since over the years the rough edges have been worn off, leaving

a very regular language.  There are still some irregular verbs and such, but

most verbs and nouns follow regular rules.  To start, pick up almost any

first-year Latin text you can find.They all start off with basic grammar and

easy readings, and each chapter elaborates on further rules of grammar and

adds to vocabulary.  If you want to be proficient in Latin, plan on doing

lots of translations.  It is helpful to get assistance with checking your

translations from someone who knows the language fairly well... once you've

started, you'll probably want to take a basic Latin class at your local

college or junior college.  It is possbile to audit such a class, in many

instances.

 

Basic Knowledge of English Grammar a Necessity:

The biggest stumbling block for folks who I have tutored in Latin is the

fact that they have no idea of what the rules are for ENGLISH grammar.  If I

can't explain to you that the direct object takes the accusative case, it's

going to be a long row to hoe!  You must know what a subject is, or the

object of a preposition, or a direct object, or an adverb, etc.  In

addition, one of the biggest helps in being able to translate from English

into Latin is the now nearly unknown skill of sentence diagramming (if you

were in the phonetics generation, you have no idea whereof I speak).

 

So... check your used book stores and collegiate book stores and get an

introductory Latin text.  It's the best way to learn a beautiful and elegant

language.

 

Wassail,.

 

Gunnora Hallakarva

Herskerinde

 

 

From: gunnora at bga.com (Gunnora Hallakarva)

To: ansteorra at eden.com

Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 17:39:52 -0500

Subject: Re: Learning Latin

 

<snip>

>By the by, these days the pronoun cases are nomitive and objective, or at

>least they are in OK and AR--

>

>Kateryn Englishteacherdottir

 

The actual noun (and pronoun) cases are:

nominative (used for subject of sentence)

genitive (used to indicate possession)

dative (used for indirect objects)

accusative (used for the direct object and the object of some prepositions)

ablative (used for the object of some prepositions, also used to indicate

"the means by which something is done")

 

English doesn't change the form of the word for every possible use of the

noun, unlike most languages.  All five noun cases were once taught in

English grammar classes, but I'm afraid that the praxctice died out with the

demise of copperplate handwriting.  Sentence diagramming held on until the

late 1950's or maybe even the 60's in some places.  It is a sad commentary

on our educational system that most people don't learn English grammar until

they sart learning another language.

 

Wassail,

Gunnora Hallakarva

Herskerinde

 

 

From: Mike Baker <mbaker at rapp.com>

To: ansteorra

Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:10:00 -0500

Subject: RE: Learning Latin

 

If I may offer a variation to Gunnora's excellent advice concerning the

learning of Latin, I would note two or three items.

 

First, for a reading acquaintance with Latin it helps immensely if one first

learns the ROOT-level meanings of English-language words which have derived

from any of the "Romance" (i.e. Latin-derivative) languages.  (I've been

tested at 40%-plus reading comprehension of French, Italian, and Portugese

based upon my English vocabulary...)  Comprehension by this method is

reduced for colloquialisms, but even there a little common sense -- and

awareness of context -- help immensely.

 

Second, when haunting the used-book stores, keep your eyes out for high

school Latin textbooks published pre-WW II.  I have a knowledge of

self-taught Latin using a text that my great-aunt acquired in 1918...

 

Thirdly, it sometimes helps to have a choral background as well -- many of

the Latin songs include both English lyrics and translations.

 

Fourthly, learn heraldic terminology. Hey, yet another benefit of

associating with the SCA at more depth than the "costumed party" level!

 

As in learning many languages, learning at least a basic level of Latin *is*

easier when you know your own native (European) language at a deeper level.

Conversely, learning Latin will also increase your comprehension of English.

A genuine positive feedback loop!

 

Amr ibn Majid al-Bakri al-Amra

Mike C. Baker                      mbaker at rapp.com

 

 

From: gunnora at bga.com (Gunnora Hallakarva)

To: ansteorra at eden.com

Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 18:18:15 -0500

Subject: Re: Learning Latin

 

>Amr ibn Majid al-Bakri al-Amra states:

>>Fourthly, learn heraldic terminology. Hey, yet another benefit of

>>associating with the SCA at more depth than the "costumed party" level!

 

>Stefan li Rous said:

>Huh? Why do you see this as a benefit to learning Latin? I thought most

>of the heraldic terms were French?

 

Heilsa, All!

 

       In general, I have found that knowing Latin helps one in expanding

one's English vocabulary, aids in learning medical terminology or legal

technical language, and can be a super help score-wise when taking the SAT.

I have never heard from anyone that knowing heraldry, medical terms, legal

terms, or English really helps all that much with learning Latin.

 

       On the other hand, a good Latin instructor will have the students

work up a list of derivitaves and cognates for their Latin vocabulary words.

If you know the Latin verb "jacere" means "to throw," then you can pretty

much guess at project, reject, inject, eject, etc.  This is why I strongly

urge parents to have your children take at least a single year of Latin...

it has been shown in several studies to increase SAT scores by an incredible

margin.

 

       I have heard others say that knowing Spanish or French aided them in

learning Latin.  I had Latin first, and can only say that I would *never*

have even passed my Spanish classes, much less done well in them, had I not

already had several years of Latin

 

       Learning Latin as an adult is an intellectual pursuit, pretty much,

and isn't particularly useful unless you are a medieval scholar.  Even then,

it takes several years of study, as first you have to learn classical Latin,

then you supplement that with Church Latin, which is a later form and not

quite as regular.  But if you can read Church Latin, a world of stuff

becomes available to you:  you can read medieval French and medieval

Italian, if you've got a dictionary to hand for strange words.  This was how

I was able to access the poems of Christine de Pisan.  I wouldn't say that I

am expert in medieval French, but I was able to read enough to be able to at

least get the flavor of Pisan's writings.

 

Wassail,

Gunnora Hallakarva

Herskerinde

 

 

From: zebee at zipper.zip.com.au (Zebee Johnstone)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Latin course available on the net

Date: 12 Nov 1996 06:04:08 GMT

Organization: Zip Internet Professionals Pty Ltd

 

The Brit newspaper "The Electronic Telegraph" is doing a 20 part latin

course via the web.

 

The ET is a webbed version of "The Telegraph" newspaper.

 

The home page is http://www.telegraph.co.uk

 

Once you have registered, you go to the "etcetera" section then

"lingua franca".  Currently it is at lesson 4, you can get the

previous ones by folloiwing the "last week's lingua franca" links.

 

The site is non-graphical-browser friendly :)

 

Silfren

--

Zebee Johnstone (zebee at zip.com.au

 

 

From: Fideli <jfideli at suffolk.lib.ny.us>

To: Mark Harris

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 15:53:24 -0500 (EST)

Subject: X-Tra latin  101

 

>                   Important Latin Phrases . .

>

>  Die dulci fruere.

>    Have a nice day.

>

>  Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinus

>  alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!

>    If you can read this sign, you can get a good job in the

>    fast-paced, high-paying world of Latin!

>

>  Sona si Latine loqueris.

>    Honk if you speak Latin.

>

>  Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum!

>    Don't you dare erase my hard disk!

>

>  Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput

>  tuum saxum immane mittam.

>    I have a catapult. Give me all the money, or I will fling

>    an enormous rock at your head.

>

>  Gramen artificiosum odi.

>    I hate Astroturf.

>

>  Furnulum pani nolo.

>    I don't want a toaster.

>

>  Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

>    I think some people in togas are plotting against me.

>

>  Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo.

>    Don't call me, I'll call you.

>

>  Cave ne ante ullas catapultas ambules.

>    If I were you, I wouldn't walk in front of any catapults.

>

>  Canis meus id comedit.

>    My dog ate it.

>

>  Illiud Latine dici non potest.

>    You can't say that in Latin.

>

>  Vidistine nuper imagines moventes bonas?

>    Seen any good movies lately?

>

>  Nullo metro compositum est.

>    It doesn't rhyme.

>

>  Non curo. Si metrum non habet, non est poema.

>    I don't care. If it doesn't rhyme, it isn't a poem.

>

>  Fac ut gaudeam.

>    Make my day.

>

>  Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica

>  Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!

>    Those green pants go so well with that pink shirt

>    and the plaid jacket!

>

>  Visne saltare? Viam Latam Fungosam scio.

>    Do you want to dance? I know the Funky Broadway.

>

>  Re vera, potas bene.

>    Say, you sure are drinking a lot.

>

>  Utinam barbari spatium proprium tuum invadant!

>    May barbarians invade your personal space!

>

>  Utinam coniurati te in foro interficiant!

>    May conspirators assassinate you in the mall!

>

>  Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!

>    May faulty logic undermine your entire philosophy!

>

>  Radix lecti

>    Couch potato

>

>  Quo signo nata es?

>    What's your sign?

>

>  Spero nos familiares mansuros.

>    I hope we'll still be friends.

>

>  Mellita, domi adsum.

>    Honey, I'm home.

>

>  Tam exanimis quam tunica nehru fio.

>    I am as dead as the nehru jacket.

>

>  Ventis secundis, tene cursum.

>    Go with the flow.

>

>  Te precor dulcissime supplex!

>    Pretty please with a cherry on top!

>

>  Magister Mundi sum!

>    I am the Master of the Universe!

>

>  Fac me cocleario vomere!

>    Gag me with a spoon!

>

>  Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.

>    I can't hear you. I have a banana in my ear.

>

>  Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax

>  materiam possit materiari?

>     How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck

>     could chuck wood?

>

>  Nihil est--in vita priore ego imperator Romanus fui.

>     That's nothing--in a previous life I was a Roman Emperor.

>

>  Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est.

>     Yes, that is a very large amount of corn.

>

>  Recedite, plebes! Gero rem imperialem!

>     Stand aside plebians! I am on imperial business.

>

>  Fac ut vivas.

>     Get a life.

>

>  Insula Gilliganis

>     Gilligan's Island

 

 

To: mark_harris at quickmail

Subject: Re: Latin-msg

From: becky_b at juno.com (Becky L Becker)

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 18:58:45 EDT

 

Greetings,

 

I've been sharing the Latin phrases with my daughter, since she doesn't

live at home.

 

Her response to the Catapult and money phrase:

 

Meam pecuniam non dignum saxum est, praeterea tua catapulta posset ferire

non latus laterus horrenorum!

 

She says the grammar is probably incorrect, but it was an impromptu

response. Translation:

 

My money is not worth the rock, besides, your catapult could not hit the

broad side of a barn!

 

Thought you might enjoy it.

 

Elsby MacKristinn of Ramsey

 

 

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 18:45:37 -0600

To: "Carol Lindemann, Ph.D." <lindy at interport.net>

From: Gunnora Hallakarva <gunnora at bga.com>

Subject: Latin Verb Forms

Cc: markh at risc.sps.mot.com

 

>Dear Gunnora Hallakarva

>Despite the long delay in response, I am still chewing this one over.

>In the forms, sero, serere, SEVI...

>What form is sevi- could it be past tense?

>Carol

 

Latin verbs are almost always listed by giving the principal parts of the

verb, which are:

 

Present Active (1st Person Singular)

Present Infinitive

Perfect Active (1st Person Singular)

Perfect Passive Participle

 

The reason being that in order to correctly conjugate the verb, you have to

know those forms, as the verb formation changes in those cases based on

those forms of the verb.

 

Hence:

 

1st Conjugation: porto, portarem portavi, portatum

2nd Conjugation: moneo, monere, monui, monitum

3rd Conjugation: duco, decere, duxi, ductum

3rd Conjugation (i-stem): capio, capere, cepi, captum

4th Conjugation: audio, audire, audivi, auditum

 

Then you have irregular verbs such as "to be": sum, esse, fui, futurus.

 

A full verb conjugation might look like this:

 

Principal Parts: porto, portarem portavi, portatum

 

I. ACTIVE

      A. Indicative

            1.Present

                  a. Singular

                        1. 1st person: porto (I am carrying, I carry)

                        2. 2nd person: portas (you are carrying, you carry)

                        3. 3rd person: portat (he is carrying, he carries)

                  b. Plural

                        1. 1st person: portamus (we are carrying, we carry)

                        2. 2nd person: portatis (you are carrying, you carry)

                        3. 3rd person: portant (they are carrying, they carry)

            2. Imperfect

                  a. Singular

                        1. 1st person: portabam (I was carrying)

                        2. 2nd person: portabas (you were carrying)

                        3. 3rd person: portabat (he was carrying)

                  b. Plural

                        1. 1st person: portabamus (we were carrying)

                        2. 2nd person: portabatis (you were carrying)

                        3. 3rd person: portbant (they were carrying)

            3. Future

                  a. Singular

                        1. 1st person: portabo (I am carrying, I carry)

                        2. 2nd person: portabis (you are carrying, you carry)

                        3. 3rd persoon: portabit (he is carrying, he carries)

                  b. Plural

                        1. 1st person: portabimus (we are carrying, we carry)

                        2. 2nd person: portabitis (you are carrying, you carry)

                        3. 3rd person: portbunt (they are carrying, they carry)

            4. Perfect

                  a. Singular

                        1. 1st person: portavi (I have carried)

                        2. 2nd person: portavisti (you have carried)

                        3. 3rd person: portavit (he has carried)

                  b. Plural

                        1. 1st person: portavimus (we have carried)

                        2. 2nd person: portavistis (you have carried)

                        3. 3rd person: portaverunt (they have carried)

            5. Past Perfect

                  a. Singular

                        1. 1st person: portaveram (I had carried)

                        2. 2nd person: portaveras (you had carried)

                        3. 3rd person: portaverat (he had carried)

                  b. Plural

                        1. 1st person: portaveramus (we had carried)

                        2. 2nd person: portaveratis (you had carried)

                        3. 3rd person: portaverant (they had carried)

            6. Future Perfect

                  a. Singular

                        1. 1st person: portavero (I shall have carried)

                        2. 2nd person: portaveris (you will have carried)

                        3. 3rd person: portaverit (he will have carried)

                  b. Plural

                        1. 1st person: portaverimus (we shall have carried)

                        2. 2nd person: portaveritis (you will have carried)

                        3. 3rd person: portaverint (they will have carried)

      B. Subjunctive (used in subordinate clauses, translation varies)

            1.Present

                  a. Singular

                        1. 1st person: portem

                        2. 2nd person: portes

                        3. 3rd person: portet

                  b. Plural

                        1. 1st person: portemus

                        2. 2nd person: portetis

                        3. 3rd person: portent

            2. Imperfect

                  a. Singular

                        1. 1st person: portarem

                        2. 2nd person: portares

                        3. 3rd person: portaret

                  b. Plural

                        1. 1st person: portaremus

                        2. 2nd person: portaretis

                        3. 3rd person: portarent

            3. Future - No Future Subjunctive

            4. Perfect

                  a. Singular

                        1. 1st person: portaverim

                        2. 2nd person: portaveris

                        3. 3rd person: portaverit

                  b. Plural

                        1. 1st person: portaverimus

                        2. 2nd person: portaveritis

                        3. 3rd person: portaverint

            5. Past Perfect

                  a. Singular

                        1. 1st person: portavissem

                        2. 2nd person: portavisses

                        3. 3rd person: portavisset

                  b. Plural

                        1. 1st person: portaveramus

                        2. 2nd person: portaveratis

                        3. 3rd person: portaverant

            6. Future Perfect - No Subjunctive Future Perfect

      C. Imperative

            1. Present

                  a. Singular: porta (carry)

                  b. Plural: portate (carry)

            2.Imperfect - No Imperative Imperfect

            3. Future

                  a. Singular

                        1. 1st person: No Imperative Future Singular

                        2. 2nd person: portato (you shall carry)

                        3. 3rd person: portato (he shall carry)

                  b. Plural

                        1. 1st person: No Imperative Future Plural

                        2. 2nd person: portatote (you shall carry)

                        3. 3rd person: portanto (they shall carry)

            4. Perfect - No Imperative Perfect

            5. Past Perfect - No Imperative Past Perfect

            6. Future Perfect - No Imperative Future Perfect

      D. Infinitive

            1. Present: portare (to carry)

            2. Imperfect - No Infinitive Imperfect

            3. Future: portaturus esse (to be going to carry)

            4. Perfect: portavisse (to have carried)

            5. Past Perfect - No Infinitive Past Perfect

            6. Future Perfect - No Infinitive Future Perfect

II. PASSIVE

      A. Indicative

            1.Present

                  a. Singular

                        1. 1st person: portor (I am being carried)

                        2. 2nd person: portaris or portare (you are being carried)

                        3. 3rd person: portatur (he is being carried)

                  b. Plural

                        1. 1st person: portamur (we are being carried)

                        2. 2nd person: portamini (you are being carried)

                        3. 3rd person: portantur (they are being carried)

            2. Imperfect

                  a. Singular

                        1. 1st person: portabar (I was being carried)

                        2. 2nd person: portabaris or portabare (you were being carried)

                        3. 3rd person: portabatur (he was being carried)

                  b. Plural

                        1. 1st person: portabamur (we were being carried)

                        2. 2nd person: portabamini (you were being carried)

                        3. 3rd person: portbantur (they were being carried)

            3. Future

                  a. Singular

                        1. 1st person: portabor (I shall be carried)

                        2. 2nd person: portaberis or portabere (he will be carried)

                        3. 3rd person: portabitur (he will be carried)

                  b. Plural

                        1. 1st person: portabimur (we shall be carried)

                        2. 2nd person: portabimini (you will be carried)

                        3. 3rd person: portbuntur (they will be carried)

            4. Perfect

                  a. Singular

                        1. 1st person: portatus sum (I have been carried)

                        2. 2nd person: portatus es (you have been carried)

                        3. 3rd person: portatus est (he has been carried)

                  b. Plural

                        1. 1st person: portati sumus (we have been carried)

                        2. 2nd person: portati estis (you have been carried)

                        3. 3rd person: portati sunt (they have been carried)

            5. Past Perfect

                  a. Singular

                        1. 1st person: portatus eram (I had been carried)

                        2. 2nd person: portatus eras (you had been carried)

                        3. 3rd person: portatus erat (he had been carried)

                  b. Plural

                        1. 1st person: portati eramus (we had been carried)

                        2. 2nd person: portati eratis (you had been carried)

                        3. 3rd person: portati erant (they had been carried)

            6. Future Perfect

                  a. Singular

                        1. 1st person: portatus ero (I shall have been carried)

                        2. 2nd person: portatus eris (you will have been carried)

                        3. 3rd person: portatus erit (he will have been carried)

                  b. Plural

                        1. 1st person: portati erimus (we shall have been carried)

                        2. 2nd person: portati eritis (you will have been carried)

                        3. 3rd person: portati erunt (they will have been carried)

      B. Subjunctive (used in subordinate clauses, translation varies)

            1.Present

                  a. Singular

                        1. 1st person: porter

                        2. 2nd person: porteris or portere

                        3. 3rd person: portetur

                  b. Plural

                        1. 1st person: portemur

                        2. 2nd person: portemini

                        3. 3rd person: portentur

            2. Imperfect

                  a. Singular

                        1. 1st person: portarer

                        2. 2nd person: portareris or portarere

                        3. 3rd person: portaretur

                  b. Plural

                        1. 1st person: portaremur

                        2. 2nd person: portaremini

                        3. 3rd person: portarentur

            3. Future - No Future Subjunctive

            4. Perfect

                  a. Singular

                        1. 1st person: portatus sim

                        2. 2nd person: portatus sis

                        3. 3rd person: portatus sit

                  b. Plural

                        1. 1st person: portati simus

                        2. 2nd person: portati sitis

                        3. 3rd person: portati sint

            5. Past Perfect

                  a. Singular

                        1. 1st person: portatus essem

                        2. 2nd person: portatus esses

                        3. 3rd person: portatus esset

                  b. Plural

                        1. 1st person: portati essemus

                        2. 2nd person: portati essetis

                        3. 3rd person: portati essent

            6. Future Perfect - No Subjunctive Future Perfect

      C. Imperative

            1. Present

                  a. Singular: portare (be carried)

                  b. Plural: portamini (be carried)

            2.Imperfect - No Imperative Imperfect

            3. Future

                  a. Singular

                        1. 1st person: No Imperative Future Singular

                        2. 2nd person: portator (you shall be carried)

                        3. 3rd person: portator (he shall be carried)

                  b. Plural

                        1. 1st person: No Imperative Future Plural

                        2. 2nd person: No Imperative Future Plural

                        3. 3rd person: portantor (they shall be carried)

            4. Perfect - No Imperative Perfect

            5. Past Perfect - No Imperative Past Perfect

            6. Future Perfect - No Imperative Future Perfect

      D. Infinitive

            1. Present: portari (to be carried)

            2. Imperfect - No Infinitive Imperfect

            3. Future: portatum iri (to be about to be carried)

            4. Perfect: portatus esse (to have been carried)

            5. Past Perfect - No Infinitive Past Perfect

            6. Future Perfect - No Infinitive Future Perfect

 

Gunnora Hallakarva

Herskerinde

 

 

Subject: Addendum to Florilegium Latin File

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:36:16 -0400

From: "Osburn-Day, Katherine" <katherine.osburn-day at lmco.com>

To: "'stefan at texas.net'" <stefan at texas.net>

 

Stefan,

 

The Daily Telegraph on-line Latin course that you have referenced in your

Florilegium is now available in book form.  I found it this past weekend at

Barnes & Noble.

 

       Title: Learn Latin: A Lively Introduction to Reading the Language

       Author: Peter Jones

       Publisher: Barnes & Noble

       Copyright: 1997

       ISBN: 0-76070-842-8 casebound

                 0-76070-843-6 paperback

 

I though you might like to know. (I bought a copy if you need anymore

information from it.)

 

Caterina de' Verdeschi

 

 

Subject: ANST - Latin Pronunciation In Period & the SCA

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 99 12:04:31 MST

From: Jennifer Carlson <JCarlson at firstchurchtulsa.org>

To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

 

"Matthew Kies" highlycafeinated at hotmail.com wrote:

>as was most recently pointed out (see below), the common usage of latin

>in our fine kingdom stinks somethin ferocious... not only would "vivant"

>[wee wunt] be more correct than "vivat" [wee wut], but to be accurate,

>you are not usually meaning "they live" or "he/she/it lives"... usually

>what you are doing is wishing them well, or congratulations, a long

>life... in which case any of the following are appropriate:(singular)

>"VIVE" [wee way] (PLURAL) "VIVETE" [wee wa tay]

>                       "SALVE" [sul way]     "SALVETE" [sul way tay]

 

Si tu vales, valeo!

 

There are several points on which classical Latin and medieval, or church,

Latin, differ with regards to how they are pronounced.  In classical Latin,

the letters C and G are always hard, and V is prononced as a W.  In

medieval Latin, C and G are soft if followed by E, I,  or Y, and V is

sounded like V.  In medieval Latin, SC is sounded as SH.

 

One of those old jokes classical Latin students pull on medieval Latin

students is to hit them with the following phrase, an inscription from a

monastery refectory (dining hall) door:  Papa fidem scit  (The Pope knows

the Faith).

 

Read it out loud, with a hard C, as for good, classical Latin.

Now, read it out loud, with the medieval "sh" sound.

 

Talana

Who can't believe she's really passing on such a silly old joke, but who

did survive Latin classes that switched back and forth between a classicist

and medievalist.

 

 

Subject: ANST - RE: Latin Pronunciation In Period & The SCA

Date: Tue, 09 Mar 99 13:11:56 MST

From: Jennifer Carlson <JCarlson at firstchurchtulsa.org>

To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

 

Good day, Brother Galen, and any who are interested in this topic!

 

Here's my attempt to answer the good friar's good questions:

(intro snipped)

 

> I have only found references to classical and church Latin, and have clung to

>the classical version as being more correct.

 

One is "more correct" than the other only in context.  Since the SCA

context is the Middle Ages, Medieval Latin would be the "more correct,"

unless you have either a Republican Roman or a later Renaissance persona.

 

>Do you, perchance, have a book that discusses Medieval

>pronunciation that you could copy the relevant pages for me?  I would be

>very much in your debt, and would certainly repay copy and mail expenses.

 

Try these titles.  If you do not have access to them, I can make copies.

 

Dillon, Janette, 1953- Language and stage in medieval and Renaissance

England. Cambridge, U.K. ; New York : Cambridge University Press, 1998.

 

Sidwell, Keith C. Reading medieval Latin. Cambridge ; New York : Cambridge

University Press, 1995.

 

Harrington, Karl Pomeroy 1861-1953 ed. Mediaeval Latin. [Chicago]

University of Chicago Press [1969, c1925]

 

Beeson, Charles Henry 1870- A primer of medieval Latin an anthology of prose

and poetry by Charles H. Beeson ... Chicago New York [etc.] Scott, Foresman

and company [c1925]

 

>Could you also confirm/deny something?  I found a web page a couple of years

>ago that stated that "modern" church Latin came about when Pope Pius X felt

>that Latin was daying from the Church and pushed to bring back Latin, but

>did so with essentially Italian pronunciation.  I have tried many searches

>to find this page again, but is has so far eluded me.

 

I haven't run across this story about Pope Pius X  [Saint (born Giuseppe

Sarto) 1835-1914] being the source of modern Church Latin pronunciation.

Latin was firmly THE language of the Roman Church until the Second Vatican

Council in the 1960's, and even though the mass and offices are today

celebrated in the vernacular, official documents such as encyclicals are

still recorded in Latin.  In fact, an updated Vatican Latin dictionary came

out a few years ago that caused some tittering with its efforts to produce

Latin terms for "washing machine", "e-mail" and "juke box."

 

My own take on church pronunciation is this (warning: linguistics lesson

approaching!):

 

Languages evolve or they ossify and die - this is why Classical Latin and

Attic Greek are considered "dead" languages.  Over the course of a thousand

years, a certain amount of vocabulary will disappear, new vocabulary will

appear, and, in accordance with the law of entropy, the grammar will

simplify itself.  A recent example of entropy in English is that, outside

of a few cultural pockets such as the Amish, the second person familiar,

Thee, has been replaced with the second person formal, You, for all

purposes. The average American only runs into Thee and Thou via the King

James Bible and the movies.

 

Rome expanded, becoming an empire and absorbing the cultures that it

conquered. When Rome finally overran Greece, Greece influenced Roman

culture in many ways, notably in the language.  Greek nurses taught their

little Roman charges to speak Greek, and so the young Romans had to learn

as a second language what would otherwise have been their native tongue.

This also affected how and in what contexts Latin came to be used.  The

Christian Church was born into a time when Classical Latin was beginning to

pass out of general use in the Empire.

 

Classical Latin is different structurally from Medieval Latin.  The major

differences between the Classical and Medieval forms are grammar and

sentence structure.  If you look at some of the differences between

Elizabethan English, which is technically Modern English, and the

vernacular in Ansteorra, you'll get the idea.  Structural differences are

also evident in the poetic forms, which can be seen in comparing the poetry

of Catullus (1st c. b.c.) and the lyrics of the Carmina Burana.

 

For much of the medieval period, Italy was the center of culture in Europe.

The Italian language, which evolved out of Latin, changed its

pronunciation of certain letters and letter combinations over the

centuries, and these phonics moved over and were applied to church use of

Latin, and this pronunciation spread.  This spread was bolstered by the

fact that the other Romance Languages (those based on Latin) -- Provencal,

early French, Spanish, etc. -- were also evolving.  In the French

languages, particularly, you can see that the general use of harder

consonants smoothed out over time, leading to the more "liquid" sounding

language of Modern French.  Take a look at The Song of Roland in the

original versus in the works of Voltaire (17th c.).  Spanish retained more

of its original consonantal character than did the other Romance languages,

but Spanish vocabulary was influenced by the Moorish occupation.  So, the

Italianate pronunciation of Church Latin may not have anything to do with

the Sainted Pope Pius X.

 

>My searches also seem to indicate that Medieval Latin isn't taught until

>the student has had about 2 years of classical Latin. Do you know of an

>introductory text that starts with Medieval? Is there a reason that

>classical is the jumping off point, or have my searches just been too

>narrow?

 

Classical Latin as the introductory form of the language is a legacy from

the Renaissance.  Classical Latin was rediscovered during the Renaissance,

and became the preferred form of study for the literary and scholarly

elite. The works of Cicero, in particular, are held up as the paragon of

Classical form and grammar.  The concepts of "liberal arts education" and

"classical education", also legacies of Renaissance humanism, are allegedly

the precepts upon which modern education is based.  Hence, Classical Latin

is taught first.  Most students do not progress far enough in their studies

of the humanities to have a need for Medieval Latin - indeed, most students

do not study Latin at all.  All of the beginning Latin textbooks I am aware

of are geared towards Classical Latin.  Perhaps someone else out there can

suggest a text.

 

In servicio,

 

Dunstana Talana Viola

Arc Septemtrionis (Northkeepensis)

Or should it be

Arcis Septemtrionis (Northkeepensi)?

Nominative or ablative? Nominative or ablative? Aagh! Salve me! Salve me!

 

I swear, Your Honor, I was just polishing my Liberal Arts degree when it

went off!

 

 

Subject: Latin Cognates to Modern English Words

Date: Sun, 16 May 99 12:11:23 MST

From: Gunnora Hallakarva <gunnora at bga.com>

To: GRDNR4EVR at aol.com

CC: "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)" <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>

Re: Amicii flores in horto vitae sunt.

 

>I enjoy the Latin words that are still a large part of the English language

>and am often surprised by the amount of people that have no idea of their

>origin.

 

This particular phrase clearly shows its English cognates:

 

amicii, "friends" (amicable)

flores, "flowers" (flowers, floral)

horto, "garden" (horticulture)

vitae, "of life" (vital, vitality)

 

Studies have shown that students who take as little as a single year of

Latin in high school score significantly higher in the language portion of

standardized tests such as the PSAT, SAT, and ACT.  The major reason is

because having a core understanding of a small Latin vocabulary unlocks an

enormous amount of English that has been influenced by Norman French.

 

Thus if a student knows the verb "jacere" (to throw) and a selection of

common prepositions, they can easily guess the meanings of such words as:

 

eject (throw out)

reject (throw back)

project (throw forward)

inject (throw inward)

 

This allows these students to score much higher on the lingusitic portions

of the standard tests since they have a much higher percentage of correct

guesses on unknown words based on their Latin cognates.

 

cc: Stefan li Rous for his Florilegium Files <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>

 

Ws u Hl (Waes Thu Hael)

 

::GUNNORA::

 

Gunnora Hallakarva

Baroness to the Court of Ansteorra

 

 

Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 20:57:09 -0500

From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Palaeography how to

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

Something interesting from the UK

 

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/palaeography/

 

Johnnae

 

<the end>



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