Stefan's Florilegium

AS-compet-msg

AS-compet-msg - 4/4/00

A&S Competitions. Example rules and comments on judging them.

NOTE: See also the files: AS-classes-lst, AS-food-msg, AS-ideas-msg,
AS-cont-docu-msg, AS-events-msg, AS-classes-msg, 5x8-Doc-art, local-hist-art.

************************************************************************
NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that
I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some
messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium.
These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with
seperate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes
extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were
removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I
make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the
individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these
messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this
time. If information is published from these messages, please give
credit to the orignator(s).

Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: Lord Stefan li Rous
RSVE60@email.sps.mot.com stefan@florilegium.org
************************************************************************

Subject: Ice Dragon Pentathlon Rules: Where Can I Get Them?
Date: 18 Feb 92
From: dylan@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club

Unto the Rialto does Dylan ap Maelgwn send greetings.

I am trying to locate the rules for the arts pentathlon
held at Ice Dragon here in the Eastrealm. If someone
could send me a copy or tell me who I can contact for
it, I would be eternally obliged.

Dylan ap Maelgwn
Bhakail, East
Philadelphia, PA

Ice Dragon Pentathlon Rules

1. No kits
2. Entry by proxy is allowed (not as such on entry form)
3. Items must never have been entered in any other competition
before, excepting only that previously used patterns or recipes
may be entered - as long as the entry itself is new.
4. No more than two items per entrant per sub-category
5. Category set-up is at the discretion of the Pent autocrat. All
decisions are final.
6. There will be a 50-cent fee per category entered with a maximum
of $3 per entrant. This fee is payable at the time of
registration.
7. Historical documentation should b as thorough as possible, and
in the case of written word entries, clearly identified as to
where the documentation ends and the entry begins.
8. Entrants will not be allowed to speak to the judges during the
judging. If there is something important that you want them
to know, include it in you documentation. Music composition
and song-writing entries may include a tape of the entry. This
is optional but recommended.
9. Masters and Mistresses of the Laurel may compete in the
Master's Competition, as well as any sub-category not in their
area of expertise - ie what they were Laureled for. Masters
and Mistresses of the Laurel, as well as any previous winners
of the Grand Pentathlon may compete in individual sub-
categories but may not be entered into the over-all
Pentathlon.
10. Overall Grand Pentathlon Competition
a. Entrants must enter at last five of the 12 categories.
b. Highest scores from your five best scoring categories will
be used to tabulate your Pentathlon score.
11. Pent registration begins at 9:30 a.m. and closes at 11 a.m.
NO EXCEPTIONS!
12. Judging times will be posted. They will be strictly adhered
to. Your item/performance must be available for judging at the
correct time or it will not be judged. NO EXCEPTIONS!
13. All accessories must be placed on tables to be judged. NO
EXCEPTIONS!
14. Performing Arts must be performed. There will be a tim limit -
five minutes for individuals and 10 minutes for groups.
Please contact the Pent Autocrat at least one week in advance
if there are any problems. Three copies of documentation are
required for all Performing Arts categories.
15. Cross-entries (one entry, multiple sub-categories) are
permitted. A separate copy of documentation is required for
each sub-category plus one copy to stay with item (ie - a pair
of wooden and leather shoes is entered in wood-working,
leather-working and accessories. This mean the entrant needs
FOUR (4) copies of documentation. All cross entered items will
be placed on a central table so that they will be easier for
the judges to find.
16. Please do not bring actual books for documentation. Copy the
pertinent pages as well as the title page. Books will not be
allowed on tables with items.
17. In order to allow for thorough judging, written word and music
entries must be postmarked no later than February 10, 1992.
Yes this means that you have to have it ready before the event.
All the entries should be mailed to C. Jackson, 14 Wild Wood
Place, Buffalo, NY 14210.
18. Group entries should be noted on the registration form. Anyone
who is using a group entry as one of the Pentathlon categories
must fill out a separate registrations form.
19. Judging criteria and point system: Documentation: 0-5 pts;
Creativity: 0-5 pts; Complexity: 0-5 pts; Authenticity: 0-5
pts; Workmanship: 0-5 pts; Aesthetics: 0-5 pts

16th Annual Ice Dragon Pentathlon Categories:

1. Needlework and Textile Arts
a. Embroidery on Even Weave Fabric (cnt. cross-stitch,
hardanger, blackwork, certain cutwork, etc.)
b. Other needlework and beadwork
c. Lace, knitting and crochet
d. Spinning, weaving, dyeing

2. Sewing
a. Pre-1400 garb
b. Post-1400 garb
c. Accessories
d. Banners

3. Graphics
a. Calligraphy
b. Illumination
c. Drawing, painting and printmaking

4. Performing Arts
a. Dance, juggling, stage magic and tumbling
b. Drama, puppetry and storytelling
c. Instrumental music
d. Vocal music

5. Music and the written word
a. Poetry
b. Prose
c. Arrangement, music composition and songwriting
d. Essays and research papers

6. Armor

7. Metalworking

8. Leatherwork

9. Woodwork

10. Cookery
a. Main and side dishes
b. Breads
c. Sweets and subtleties
d. Herbology

11. Brewing
a. Alcoholic
b. Non-Alcoholic

12. Miscellaneous
a. This category will be used strictly at the discretion of the
Pentathlon Autocrat. Any items that can fit appropriately
into other categories will be placed there.

hope this is of help to you

dylan

From: David Friedman <DDF2@cornell.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Limitations of Arts Contests
Date: 22 Sep 1993 02:12:22 GMT
Organization: Cornell University

A recent exchange with Bettina Helms suggests to me a tangent
that I think worth discussing. Bettina describes an incident in
which, if I understand her correctly, she believes that she got
a lower score than she should have in an arts contest because
the judges overweighted a relatively unimportant but easy to
judge dimension of authenticity (modern pigments vs hazardous
period pigments) relative to a more important but harder to
judge dimension (style imitating that of a period painter). For
the purposes of this posting I will assume both that I have
correctly interpreted her account and that she correctly
interpreted what happened.

On those assumptions what happened was, I think, what one ought
to expect to happen. Given the contraints facing an arts
contest, we should expect judging to be substantially better at
the lower levels and very poor at the highest level. In a local
arts contest, where most of the submissions were by people who
had looked at one or two secondary sources and decided to try
their hands at something vaguely period, I could probably do a
competent job of judging in most fields. I would be entirely
incompetent to judge, in most fields, work by one of the three
or four best people in that field in the kingdom. Even in the
fields where I am, by SCA standards, an expert, I could not do
a very good job. The person I would be judging would also be an
expert, and the piece would probably be in a particular part of
the field where he was more expert than I. I might be able to
spot places where the entrant had chosen to be imperfectly
authentic but I would be unlikely to spot elements where the
entrant had tried to be authentic and failed.

Consider Bettina's example. If she is lucky, and if the contest
is a large one, she may have judges who know quite a lot about
period painting. But she is unlikely to have even one judge who
knows enough about the particular painter whose style she is
imitating to tell whether or not she is doing a good job of
imitating it. On the other hand, she probably does have judges
who know enough to notice, from her documentation, how period
the materials are--especially since she mentioned using modern
pigments. The judges have to do their judging on the elements
of authenticity (and other desiderata) that they are competent
to judge.

This suggests that arts contests may be useful for giving
beginners some idea of how well they are doing. They may also
be useful for getting together people who are not beginners to
talk about their art. But they are probably not very useful for
deciding which of several good pieces is best.

David/Cariadoc (who swore off arts contests long ago)
DDF2@Cornell.Edu

From: sclark@epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Limitations of Arts Contests
Date: 22 Sep 1993 13:23:47 -0400
Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto

In general, there has been a real push in these parts (Ealdormere)
towards what we're calling "Ellisif's method". One thing I really
push in doing documentation talks is putting as much info about YOU into
the write-up, including why certain fabrics were used (can't afafford silk
and this was best substitute I could find, period materials are poisonous
and this is best substitute, etc.). I also advise people to write
up a general description of how the article would have been made in period,
just to show the judges you KNOW, and then to detail the changes to
that proceedure and why you did what you did. (For instance, I have yet
to meet a costuming judge who took off points for machine sewing, as long
as it didn't show. However, the same judges awarded extra points for
going to the effort of hand-sewing).
Adding stuff about the person who would have used the item
is also helpful--peasant clothes are not expected to be exquisitly
embroidered, for instance.
I do wish A & S competitions would take Robbyan's hint and at least
spend a couple of minutes talking with each entrant. Usually in costuming,
you can't avoid it as you usually judge the garment ON the entrant, or at
least someone who knows the entrant well. Gives that category a real
advantage. Same goes for the bardic, music, and dramatic categories.
I realize that would take more time, but......why do we do these
competitions, anyway?????

Regards
Nicolaa/Susan
sclark@epas.utoronto.ca

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: moore@mari.acc.stolaf.edu (Michael Moore)
Subject: Re: A&S competitions
Organization: St. Olaf College; Northfield, MN USA
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 13:49:09 GMT

In article <199409152314.RAA24296@beagle.Colorado.EDU>
conklinc@beagle.colorado.EDU (CONKLIN) writes:
>Greetings from Chendra-
>
>A question - how should (are) reproductions handled in A&S
>competitions? ...

>... Where, then, does this leave someone who does
>a really wonderful reproduction (read EXACT reproduction, no
>originality) in competition??
>
>-the redhead-
>
In the Middle Kingdom Arts and Sciences Criteria, equal points are given
to "creativity" and "authenticity" (as well as "documentation", "scope",
"workmanship", and "judge's opinion").

An exact reproduction, done well, will score high on authenticity and
low on creativity.

A creatively done piece with no connection to period, done well,
will score high (maybe) on creativity, but will score low on authenticity
(and documentation).

A creatively done piece in period style (as shown through documentation),
done well, will score high on creativity and authenticity.

It's a balancing act.

Each kingdom does things differently.

Peregrine
moore@stolaf.edu

"Remember--the best documentation you can give a judge is the stuff you
worked from in making what you made! If you worked from a picture of
a pot to make your pottery, _show_the_judge_that_picture_! Thank you."

From: C11Hartel@aol.com
To: ansteorra@eden.com (4/28/95)
RE>judging ethics

My lord put his two cents in on the judging ethics, now I'll add mine for
what it's worth. I have judged several smaller arts competitions and have
have seen the work of friends that I did not score highly. I feel I am
probably harder on those I know for the sheer fact that I know what they are
capable of actually doing. I once had a friend become upset when she did not
receive a high score and I told her it was due to the fact that I had seen
her put out much better work in the same area. My lord also enters A&S
competitions from time to time and I would have no qualms in judging his
entries IF I felt I was knowledgable in the area.

This brings up the point of who is actually qualified to judge. I have a
knowledge of inkle weaving, some calligraphy, and a bit more illumination but
I am in no way qualified to judge the merit of metalworking, armour
construction, or say brewing\vinting. I can say that is is
a) nice to look at
b) nicely crafted to my inexperienced eyes
c) has a functional use
d) it tastes/smells good
BUT...other than that I am at a loss.

The shire I play in (Tempio) breaks its A&S into two catagorties, OPEN and
FIRST ATTEMPT. The "judging" is done by populace vote. Each person receives
a bead for each catagory and as they look at all the items they are to place
a bead in a cup next to the item of their choice. Some people base their
decisions soley on "If I could take anything home this would be it," others
take the time to read the documentation (which we do not make mandatory but
do encourage) and judge from their own existing knowledg of medieval arts and
sciences. In this manner the winners are chosen by their "peers". Also , we
have a form for the entrants to have the populace place constructive criticism
on if they so choose. These comments can range from the "It was really
pretty" to "Here's another good source for you to look into if you so
choose".

Speaking of ethics and dilemnas, I once listmistressed a team-style tourney
with a girlfiend and had the following happen. Our lords actually won the
tourney by having the most amount of points but she and I were afraid
everyone would holler that the list was rigged since it was our lords who had
won. A final bout was fought (by the Crown's decision) with our lords and
the next three teams which were tied for second place. In the course of the
fight-off our lords lost a bout which caused them to come in second and one
of the second place teams actually won due to the points system. If we had
to go back and do it again the teams would not have had the fight-off. The
standings would have stood as they were and any who wished to see the scoring
system and points could have done so. It was very hard to sit in court
that night listening to a second place team who had won in an "overtime" go
on about the honour and chivalry and good fighting that day and not once
mention the fact that the only reason they were up there at all was beause
two listmistresses felt awkwarkd about having their lords declared the
winners. Either way our lords lost that day...

I have rambled far too long and my loom is calling to me...
I hope this has helped a bit.

Moriel***

Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 13:22:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: "I. Marc Carlson" <LIB_IMC@centum.utulsa.edu>
To: ansteorra@eden.com
Subject: Re: A & S standards

<Jovian Skleros<Scot Eddy <seddy@vvm.com>>>
>...Here is a question I have had and I still get from some of my
>shire (Tempio) friends. What is documentation? Why is it needed?/What
>purpose does it serve? What should be included in it? How long should
>it be? Should it be changed? If so, how? When?

As someone who has judged A&S entries in the past, to me, *basic*
documentation is like a basic Newspaper article, it establishes
Who, What, Where, How and Why.
Who made it, and, if reproducing from an original, who made the
original as well?
What is it? Does it have a function?
Where would it have been made (space and time)?
How would it have been made, versus how *was* it made?
Why should I believe you? What sources did you use? (Any place
you make a statement, expecting me to accept it as fact,
you'd better be able to support it somehow. N.b., there is
some dissagreement among people I have spoken to about judging
regarding the use of an honest "I don't know" statement in
documentation. I am willing to accept it if you can demonstrate
that you have a reasonably good understanding of the topic and
of basic research techniques. Some other judges don't seem as
tolerant of this as I am, which is really saying something
considering how hard-nosed I can be about sources..

>There always seems to be so much that I _need_ to put into my
>documentation, but I have heard that too much is too much.

If you can adequately answer all of these points on a 3x5 card that's
great. I've seen people *fail* to answer all of them in many page
papers.

(BTW, you *do* know the difference between "Primary" and "Principle"
Sources, as well as between "Primary", "Secondary", and Tertiary" sources
don't you?)

A final note, for me, at least. Don't lie to me, or try to hide sloppy
work under a pile of BS. If you say it's a reproduction of a "period"
item, don't use modern materials or techniques, unless you tell me right
up front that it was done that way. If you tell me that "I made such a
thing THIS way, because I (like the effect/think it looks more medieval
than some other way to do it/think it will last longer/was too lazy to do
it the hard way)" you may get some criticism for it, but not nearly as
much as you will when I look at it and see that you obviously don't think
that the people judging the competition are going to have the brains
God gave a grapefruit.

I. Marc Carlson, Reference Librarian |LIB_IMC@CENTUM.UTULSA.EDU
Tulsa Community College, West Campus LRC|Sometimes known as:
Reference Tech. McFarlin Library | Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
University of Tulsa, 2933 E. 6th St. | University of Northkeep
Tulsa, OK 74104-3123 (918) 631-3794 | Northkeepshire, Ansteorra

From: Terry_A._Harper@hud.gov
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 97 11:05:46 EST
To: ansteorra@eden.com
Subject: Re[2]: A&S STandards and The Lack Thereof in Ansteorra

>Quite honestly what I would like most when I enter an A&S contest is
>feedback. I would like a little note from the judges that says "Your
>documentation was fine as far as it went but we would like
>to see more about discussion on how often almonds were
>really used in period recipes" or "You need more
>documentation" or "You need to improve your presentation"
>or whatever. That would help me the most.

>Clarissa

I completely agree. I don't enter A&S to necessarily "win"
a competition. However, I have gotten great feedback and
information on how to improve my art form, which ever one is
currently displayed, from other experts. Also, by entering
or displaying, I've had a chance to get an idea of "who does
what" in our game. Alot of times the people we can really
learn from in particular areas, some are Laurels, some are
not, have gone on to do other arts, without displaying, I
would have never known that, for example, Mistress Branwyn
used to do embroidery! or that Gunnora is something of an
herbalist. These discussions are worth much more to me than
any prize in a competition.

Rhiain

Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 11:49:25 -0500
From: Gunnora Hallakarva <gunnora@bga.com>
Subject: ANST - Overlooked A&S Displays - What Do You Do?
To: ansteorra@Ansteorra.ORG

Llereth asked:
>> And though in an
>> ideal world one shouldn't have to, you could also go speak to the judges
>> directly, letting them know that you feel that they have overlooked your
>> work.
>
>An interesting idea. May I ask what your response to such might be?

Well...

Depends. If I did in fact go over your work carefully while you were in
the privy or otherwise unavailable, I'd say so. This happens more than you
would think.

I am one of those people who always writes a critique. Sometimes, like
Mistress Siobhan, all I can say is, "You should go talk to _________ who is
the Laurel best known for this particular art in Ansteorra," or "I can't
judge this properly knowing nothing about _______. However, _____,
_______, and _______ are all experts in the field. You should try and
speak with one or more of these people if you get the chance." Therefore,
normally you would know that I had been there while you were away.

But sometimes accidents happen, distractions abound at these events. And
if I had inadvertently overlooked it, I'd go over and take a look then. We
make mistakes too.

Master Iolo once said a very wise thing, which directly applies to the art
of judging: "The more awards you have, the longer it takes to get to the
privy." This is true, certainly, if you have a Laurel! What it means in
connection with judging is that while judging you usually have multiple
interruptions and distractions: people who want to talk to you, someone who
has a question that they believe only you can answer, a disaster in the
kitchen that only you can remedy, one of your friends has gone into
hypoglycmia and needs help... these are all things that can tear your
attention away from what you are doing!

One thing that SCA arts competitions do not usually do, but might should
consider, is to use an approach often found in art competitions at craft
shows: there the items are looked at by the judges while isolated... the
art and the judges are all in one area, the public and artisans are not
allowed in, which means that the judges can hopefully get the items judges
in the least amount of time with the most concentration.

Of course, in a "normal" art judging like this, no one gets critiques. The
judges there are free to breeze by your work if they are uninterested in it
at first glance: all they have to do is pick 1st place, 2nd place, 3rd
place, and maybe a number of runners-up and honorable mentions. Since in
SCA A&S, most people don't seem to want a clear winner or loser (unlike the
Champion style tournament that Mistress Aquillane mentioned) we don't
usually award ranked placements like 1st place etc. but we are expected to
give critiques in keeping with the focus and ideal of education and
furtherance of the arts.

While I do agree that every entrant at an A&S competition should get a full
critique from every judge in their category, you still do have to realize
that it takes a lot of time and effort. Your judges are pure volunteers...
normally we show up as Laurels and Irises, pad and pencil in hand,
expecting to be needed as judges without ever being asked. We get no pay
for this effort. Normally we must pay full site fee just as the entrants
do. We don't get free feast. And certainly no hard cold cash. Yet we are
expected to work our butts off all day long (owch! my feet!) much harder
than we work at our mundane jobs and our normal reward is complaining from
people who didn't like the critiques we did offer. At maybe a third of A&S
events, the autocrat will remember to thank the judges -- we're Laurels,
it's our job, right? But it's also our recreation time.

Don't get me wrong... judging these things *is* our job, and most of us
like doing it or we wouldn't volunteer to judge in the first place! And
giving everyone a good, thorough, critique is likewise the ideal. We try,
and maybe we need to work out better methods of doing these things. So cut
the judges from slack, don't assume malice or a deliberate snub where
overwork and distraction may be the culprits. I for one certainly don't
mind being asked if I skipped your table. So ask me if you think I have,
I'll try to make it right.

Here are some problems with A&S judging that I have seen that maybe we all
should be working on together, with some suggested ideas for improvement:

(1) non-uniform judging caused by no standardized judge training
Solution: find out what a good judge is and start teaching people.

(2) not enough judges
Autocrats and A&S coordinators, call and get a head-count on
judges who will be attending. Call more Laurels and tell them
you are short of judges and ask if they can attend. Try to have
one judge for every six entries so the judges aren't overworked.

(3) constant distractions
Close the A&S display area for a while while formal judging is
going on (won't work for body of work displays, but even there
you can run out everyone except the artisans and judges.)

(4) unappreciated judges
At the last Kingdom A&S, Saint Seraphina the Bounteous set
up a Laurels-only buffet and a Laurels only lounge area that
made it easy for the judges to take short breaks and to be sure
that they had food and beverages so they were happy and not
about to faint on their feet: this was a fantastic idea and really
made the judges feel appreciated. Remember to thank the
judges.

I'm sure that other people will be able to think of more.

Communication gets down to the root of it. Tell us if you've been missed!
There may be a very good reason, which may be a mistake, but do ask!

Gunnora Hallakarva
Herskerinde

Subject: Re: ANST - Documentation
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 09:59:20 MST
From: "Russell Husted" <husted@hotmail.com>
To: ansteorra@Ansteorra.ORG

<snip>
Your raise an issue that has been the subject of (occasionally heated)
debate: documentation for A&S entries. There seems to be a trend towards
putting more emphasis on documentation than on the work itself. (I'm not
picking on you or this particular competition, you just reminded me of
this ongoing debate, and some of the "fallout" it has brought.)

An artisan recently put it to me something like this: "I'm an artisan. I
make things. I make them in a period style, using period methods as much
as possible, and with as much craftsmanship as I can. But, lately, I
can't even get a positive comment from the judges, let alone win a
competition. All they want to talk about is my documentation (or lack
thereof).
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Just my two cents. What do *you* think?

Michael Silverhands
<end snip>

I would like to see two kinds of A&S. I would like to see an artisans
competition as well as the A&S as it currently is. I do many periodish
crafts that I have no way to document, much less wish to waste massive
amounts of time on doing documentation for my less important endevours.
I do not believe that a winner or an artisans competition should receive
a title posistion or anything like that, but that it should be
availible. Fighters do not document their move moves, although the
classic ones work best. Bards do not document their work, because much
of it is new-I wrote my story in this style because....

But

Arts and Sciences is just that "AND" When I produce a scroll design, I
must be able to document it. I must understand some of the whys and
wherefor of my product. My first time at refair, I almost died from
"Accent Poisoning" I was speaking with a woman who's accent was part
souther london, part northern england with an irish tinge, but not quite
scottish, and she clamed to be french. I realize most people do not
recognize accent, but I do to some exstent and I found conversation with
her almost painful. I do not hold anything against her and said nothing
to her about it, but, If I were to turn in a scroll done the same way,
this part is 4th century Irish and this part of the same page is 14th
century french, I know a few laurels who would get almost sick on the
spot-and rightly so.

I was recently in an A$S and of the 50 points possible, I lost 20% of my
score do to lack of documentation. The problem was, I did not clearly
state what I was entering. I enterred a scroll design, so I documetned
the design. The judges thought I was entering a painted scroll, because
I provided one as a sample on how that scroll might be painted. So I
lost points and received comments like, more documentation needed. It
was my fault. I did not state clearly what I was asking them to judge. I
do not feel I could have given any more documentation than what I did,
but, I could have explained clearly what I was submitting. I did get an
interview after the entire competition was over with the judge. That was
excellent. She gave me many good comments and ideas to work with. During
the interview, I explained many of the things I did and why as well as
pointed out the footnote that had been missed, and feel my score might
have changed if the interview had happened as part of the competition.
It was not for a couple of days till I figured out that they had judged
the wrong thing, and that I did not state it clearly.

I am not discuraged from A$S and will enter them again, but there are
many arts I enjoy doing that I will never enter into an A&S as long as
documentation is needed. My chainmail is chainmail, my cardweaving is
cardweaving, but I am just doing a craft. I do not want to documetn it,
unless I am doing something real speacial. There are many masters of
these and many other crafts, and I claim no level of mastery in them. I
just love to do them, but will not enter them in anything, because there
is no forum forum for just an artisan.

with respect
Mahee
a rapier fighter, a weaver, a calligrapher, an illuminator, a wood
worker, a dancer, and working on being a brewer and storyteller, as well
as a few that I can't think of right now.

Subject: ANST - Bare Table A & S
Date: Mon, 10 May 99 14:12:37 MST
From: Scot Eddy <seddy@vvm.com>
To: ansteorra@Ansteorra.ORG

I have often wondered which of my items would get a better score. An
acrylic painted icon with brass leaf on an acrylic gesso board WITH a
snazzy faux brick wall, incense, palm leaves, candles, and fru-fru and
documentation vs. an egg tempera icon with gold leaf on a period gesso
board and a plain frame on which to display it with documentation. All
things being equal I think that the gussied up A & S entry would be much
more likely to win.

My arguement is "If you're judging the piece, judge the piece." No need
for all of the additional material. I would like to see a rule something
to the effect of "Nothing is to be on the table but a plain, black piece
of cloth, the item, and it's documentation. Level the playing field and
return the emphasis to the item itself.

Jovian

Subject: Re: ANST - laurels competing
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 21:20:58 MST
From: HLOriana@aol.com
To: ansteorra@Ansteorra.ORG

lealdricson@hotmail.com writes:
<< Some people will not enter an A&S competition where a laurel is competing
because they think that their work is not good enough. They will withdraw
or dont compete simply out of embarrassment (been there, done that). What
can be done to change this perception? The solution in the past has been to
not allow the Laurels to compete. This may not be the correct solution, but
it was one way to get contestants of lower skill levels to enter their work
so that it could be seen and critiqued. >>

In some Kingdoms it is common to compete against a standard, not
against the other artisans. An individual item can win a first, second, or
third place against that standard and there can be more than one item placed
at each level within a category. A broad category with a lot of entries
might have 3 firsts, a second and 2 thirds. A category might not have ANY
firsts, if no entry was up to that level.

Oriana

<the end>