AS-compet-msg - 12/1/08
A&S Competitions. Example rules and comments on judging them.
NOTE: See also the files: AS-classes-lst, AS-food-msg, AS-ideas-msg, AS-cont-docu-msg, AS-events-msg, AS-classes-msg, 5x8-Doc-art, local-hist-art.
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Subject: Ice Dragon Pentathlon Rules: Where Can I Get Them?
Date: 18 Feb 92
From: dylan at drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club
Unto the Rialto does Dylan ap Maelgwn send greetings.
I am trying to locate the rules for the arts pentathlon
held at Ice Dragon here in the Eastrealm. If someone
could send me a copy or tell me who I can contact for
it, I would be eternally obliged.
Dylan ap Maelgwn
Bhakail, East
Philadelphia, PA
Ice Dragon Pentathlon Rules
1. No kits
2. Entry by proxy is allowed (not as such on entry form)
3. Items must never have been entered in any other competition
before, excepting only that previously used patterns or recipes
may be entered - as long as the entry itself is new.
4. No more than two items per entrant per sub-category
5. Category set-up is at the discretion of the Pent autocrat. All
decisions are final.
6. There will be a 50-cent fee per category entered with a maximum
of $3 per entrant. This fee is payable at the time of
registration.
7. Historical documentation should b as thorough as possible, and
in the case of written word entries, clearly identified as to
where the documentation ends and the entry begins.
8. Entrants will not be allowed to speak to the judges during the
judging. If there is something important that you want them
to know, include it in you documentation. Music composition
and song-writing entries may include a tape of the entry. This
is optional but recommended.
9. Masters and Mistresses of the Laurel may compete in the
Master's Competition, as well as any sub-category not in their
area of expertise - ie what they were Laureled for. Masters
and Mistresses of the Laurel, as well as any previous winners
of the Grand Pentathlon may compete in individual sub-
categories but may not be entered into the over-all
Pentathlon.
10. Overall Grand Pentathlon Competition
a. Entrants must enter at last five of the 12 categories.
b. Highest scores from your five best scoring categories will
be used to tabulate your Pentathlon score.
11. Pent registration begins at 9:30 a.m. and closes at 11 a.m.
NO EXCEPTIONS!
12. Judging times will be posted. They will be strictly adhered
to. Your item/performance must be available for judging at the
correct time or it will not be judged. NO EXCEPTIONS!
13. All accessories must be placed on tables to be judged. NO
EXCEPTIONS!
14. Performing Arts must be performed. There will be a tim limit -
five minutes for individuals and 10 minutes for groups.
Please contact the Pent Autocrat at least one week in advance
if there are any problems. Three copies of documentation are
required for all Performing Arts categories.
15. Cross-entries (one entry, multiple sub-categories) are
permitted. A separate copy of documentation is required for
each sub-category plus one copy to stay with item (ie - a pair
of wooden and leather shoes is entered in wood-working,
leather-working and accessories. This mean the entrant needs
FOUR (4) copies of documentation. All cross entered items will
be placed on a central table so that they will be easier for
the judges to find.
16. Please do not bring actual books for documentation. Copy the
pertinent pages as well as the title page. Books will not be
allowed on tables with items.
17. In order to allow for thorough judging, written word and music
entries must be postmarked no later than February 10, 1992.
Yes this means that you have to have it ready before the event.
All the entries should be mailed to C. Jackson, 14 Wild Wood
Place, Buffalo, NY 14210.
18. Group entries should be noted on the registration form. Anyone
who is using a group entry as one of the Pentathlon categories
must fill out a separate registrations form.
19. Judging criteria and point system: Documentation: 0-5 pts;
Creativity: 0-5 pts; Complexity: 0-5 pts; Authenticity: 0-5
pts; Workmanship: 0-5 pts; Aesthetics: 0-5 pts
16th Annual Ice Dragon Pentathlon Categories:
1. Needlework and Textile Arts
a. Embroidery on Even Weave Fabric (cnt. cross-stitch,
hardanger, blackwork, certain cutwork, etc.)
b. Other needlework and beadwork
c. Lace, knitting and crochet
d. Spinning, weaving, dyeing
2. Sewing
a. Pre-1400 garb
b. Post-1400 garb
c. Accessories
d. Banners
3. Graphics
a. Calligraphy
b. Illumination
c. Drawing, painting and printmaking
4. Performing Arts
a. Dance, juggling, stage magic and tumbling
b. Drama, puppetry and storytelling
c. Instrumental music
d. Vocal music
5. Music and the written word
a. Poetry
b. Prose
c. Arrangement, music composition and songwriting
d. Essays and research papers
6. Armor
7. Metalworking
8. Leatherwork
9. Woodwork
10. Cookery
a. Main and side dishes
b. Breads
c. Sweets and subtleties
d. Herbology
11. Brewing
a. Alcoholic
b. Non-Alcoholic
12. Miscellaneous
a. This category will be used strictly at the discretion of the
Pentathlon Autocrat. Any items that can fit appropriately
into other categories will be placed there.
hope this is of help to you
dylan
From: David Friedman <DDF2 at cornell.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Limitations of Arts Contests
Date: 22 Sep 1993 02:12:22 GMT
Organization: Cornell University
A recent exchange with Bettina Helms suggests to me a tangent
that I think worth discussing. Bettina describes an incident in
which, if I understand her correctly, she believes that she got
a lower score than she should have in an arts contest because
the judges overweighted a relatively unimportant but easy to
judge dimension of authenticity (modern pigments vs hazardous
period pigments) relative to a more important but harder to
judge dimension (style imitating that of a period painter). For
the purposes of this posting I will assume both that I have
correctly interpreted her account and that she correctly
interpreted what happened.
On those assumptions what happened was, I think, what one ought
to expect to happen. Given the contraints facing an arts
contest, we should expect judging to be substantially better at
the lower levels and very poor at the highest level. In a local
arts contest, where most of the submissions were by people who
had looked at one or two secondary sources and decided to try
their hands at something vaguely period, I could probably do a
competent job of judging in most fields. I would be entirely
incompetent to judge, in most fields, work by one of the three
or four best people in that field in the kingdom. Even in the
fields where I am, by SCA standards, an expert, I could not do
a very good job. The person I would be judging would also be an
expert, and the piece would probably be in a particular part of
the field where he was more expert than I. I might be able to
spot places where the entrant had chosen to be imperfectly
authentic but I would be unlikely to spot elements where the
entrant had tried to be authentic and failed.
Consider Bettina's example. If she is lucky, and if the contest
is a large one, she may have judges who know quite a lot about
period painting. But she is unlikely to have even one judge who
knows enough about the particular painter whose style she is
imitating to tell whether or not she is doing a good job of
imitating it. On the other hand, she probably does have judges
who know enough to notice, from her documentation, how period
the materials are--especially since she mentioned using modern
pigments. The judges have to do their judging on the elements
of authenticity (and other desiderata) that they are competent
to judge.
This suggests that arts contests may be useful for giving
beginners some idea of how well they are doing. They may also
be useful for getting together people who are not beginners to
talk about their art. But they are probably not very useful for
deciding which of several good pieces is best.
David/Cariadoc (who swore off arts contests long ago)
DDF2 at Cornell.Edu
From: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Limitations of Arts Contests
Date: 22 Sep 1993 13:23:47 -0400
Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto
In general, there has been a real push in these parts (Ealdormere)
towards what we're calling "Ellisif's method". One thing I really
push in doing documentation talks is putting as much info about YOU into
the write-up, including why certain fabrics were used (can't afafford silk
and this was best substitute I could find, period materials are poisonous
and this is best substitute, etc.). I also advise people to write
up a general description of how the article would have been made in period,
just to show the judges you KNOW, and then to detail the changes to
that proceedure and why you did what you did. (For instance, I have yet
to meet a costuming judge who took off points for machine sewing, as long
as it didn't show. However, the same judges awarded extra points for
going to the effort of hand-sewing).
Adding stuff about the person who would have used the item
is also helpful--peasant clothes are not expected to be exquisitly
embroidered, for instance.
I do wish A & S competitions would take Robbyan's hint and at least
spend a couple of minutes talking with each entrant. Usually in costuming,
you can't avoid it as you usually judge the garment ON the entrant, or at
least someone who knows the entrant well. Gives that category a real
advantage. Same goes for the bardic, music, and dramatic categories.
I realize that would take more time, but......why do we do these
competitions, anyway?????
Regards
Nicolaa/Susan
sclark at epas.utoronto.ca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: moore at mari.acc.stolaf.edu (Michael Moore)
Subject: Re: A&S competitions
Organization: St. Olaf College; Northfield, MN USA
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 13:49:09 GMT
In article <199409152314.RAA24296 at beagle.Colorado.EDU> conklinc at beagle.colorado.EDU (CONKLIN) writes:
>Greetings from Chendra-
>
>A question - how should (are) reproductions handled in A&S
>competitions? ...
>... Where, then, does this leave someone who does
>a really wonderful reproduction (read EXACT reproduction, no
>originality) in competition??
>
>-the redhead-
>
In the Middle Kingdom Arts and Sciences Criteria, equal points are given
to "creativity" and "authenticity" (as well as "documentation", "scope",
"workmanship", and "judge's opinion").
An exact reproduction, done well, will score high on authenticity and
low on creativity.
A creatively done piece with no connection to period, done well,
will score high (maybe) on creativity, but will score low on authenticity
(and documentation).
A creatively done piece in period style (as shown through documentation),
done well, will score high on creativity and authenticity.
It's a balancing act.
Each kingdom does things differently.
Peregrine
moore at stolaf.edu
"Remember--the best documentation you can give a judge is the stuff you
worked from in making what you made! If you worked from a picture of
a pot to make your pottery, _show_the_judge_that_picture_! Thank you."
From: C11Hartel at aol.com
To: ansteorra at eden.com (4/28/95)
RE>judging ethics
My lord put his two cents in on the judging ethics, now I'll add mine for
what it's worth. I have judged several smaller arts competitions and have
have seen the work of friends that I did not score highly. I feel I am
probably harder on those I know for the sheer fact that I know what they are
capable of actually doing. I once had a friend become upset when she did not
receive a high score and I told her it was due to the fact that I had seen
her put out much better work in the same area. My lord also enters A&S
competitions from time to time and I would have no qualms in judging his
entries IF I felt I was knowledgable in the area.
This brings up the point of who is actually qualified to judge. I have a
knowledge of inkle weaving, some calligraphy, and a bit more illumination but
I am in no way qualified to judge the merit of metalworking, armour
construction, or say brewing\vinting. I can say that is is
a) nice to look at
b) nicely crafted to my inexperienced eyes
c) has a functional use
d) it tastes/smells good
BUT...other than that I am at a loss.
The shire I play in (Tempio) breaks its A&S into two catagorties, OPEN and
FIRST ATTEMPT. The "judging" is done by populace vote. Each person receives
a bead for each catagory and as they look at all the items they are to place
a bead in a cup next to the item of their choice. Some people base their
decisions soley on "If I could take anything home this would be it," others
take the time to read the documentation (which we do not make mandatory but
do encourage) and judge from their own existing knowledg of medieval arts and
sciences. In this manner the winners are chosen by their "peers". Also , we
have a form for the entrants to have the populace place constructive criticism
on if they so choose. These comments can range from the "It was really
pretty" to "Here's another good source for you to look into if you so
choose".
Speaking of ethics and dilemnas, I once listmistressed a team-style tourney
with a girlfiend and had the following happen. Our lords actually won the
tourney by having the most amount of points but she and I were afraid
everyone would holler that the list was rigged since it was our lords who had
won. A final bout was fought (by the Crown's decision) with our lords and
the next three teams which were tied for second place. In the course of the
fight-off our lords lost a bout which caused them to come in second and one
of the second place teams actually won due to the points system. If we had
to go back and do it again the teams would not have had the fight-off. The
standings would have stood as they were and any who wished to see the scoring
system and points could have done so. It was very hard to sit in court
that night listening to a second place team who had won in an "overtime" go
on about the honour and chivalry and good fighting that day and not once
mention the fact that the only reason they were up there at all was beause
two listmistresses felt awkwarkd about having their lords declared the
winners. Either way our lords lost that day...
I have rambled far too long and my loom is calling to me...
I hope this has helped a bit.
Moriel***
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 13:22:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: "I. Marc Carlson" <LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.edu>
To: ansteorra at eden.com
Subject: Re: A & S standards
<Jovian Skleros<Scot Eddy <seddy at vvm.com>>>
>...Here is a question I have had and I still get from some of my
>shire (Tempio) friends. What is documentation? Why is it needed?/What
>purpose does it serve? What should be included in it? How long should
>it be? Should it be changed? If so, how? When?
As someone who has judged A&S entries in the past, to me, *basic*
documentation is like a basic Newspaper article, it establishes
Who, What, Where, How and Why.
Who made it, and, if reproducing from an original, who made the
original as well?
What is it? Does it have a function?
Where would it have been made (space and time)?
How would it have been made, versus how *was* it made?
Why should I believe you? What sources did you use? (Any place
you make a statement, expecting me to accept it as fact,
you'd better be able to support it somehow. N.b., there is
some dissagreement among people I have spoken to about judging
regarding the use of an honest "I don't know" statement in
documentation. I am willing to accept it if you can demonstrate
that you have a reasonably good understanding of the topic and
of basic research techniques. Some other judges don't seem as
tolerant of this as I am, which is really saying something
considering how hard-nosed I can be about sources..
>There always seems to be so much that I _need_ to put into my
>documentation, but I have heard that too much is too much.
If you can adequately answer all of these points on a 3x5 card that's
great. I've seen people *fail* to answer all of them in many page
papers.
(BTW, you *do* know the difference between "Primary" and "Principle"
Sources, as well as between "Primary", "Secondary", and Tertiary" sources
don't you?)
A final note, for me, at least. Don't lie to me, or try to hide sloppy
work under a pile of BS. If you say it's a reproduction of a "period"
item, don't use modern materials or techniques, unless you tell me right
up front that it was done that way. If you tell me that "I made such a
thing THIS way, because I (like the effect/think it looks more medieval
than some other way to do it/think it will last longer/was too lazy to do
it the hard way)" you may get some criticism for it, but not nearly as
much as you will when I look at it and see that you obviously don't think
that the people judging the competition are going to have the brains
God gave a grapefruit.
I. Marc Carlson, Reference Librarian |LIB_IMC at CENTUM.UTULSA.EDU
Tulsa Community College, West Campus LRC|Sometimes known as:
Reference Tech. McFarlin Library | Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
University of Tulsa, 2933 E. 6th St. | University of Northkeep
Tulsa, OK 74104-3123 (918) 631-3794 | Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
From: Terry_A._Harper at hud.gov
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 97 11:05:46 EST
To: ansteorra at eden.com
Subject: Re[2]: A&S STandards and The Lack Thereof in Ansteorra
>Quite honestly what I would like most when I enter an A&S contest is
>feedback. I would like a little note from the judges that says "Your
>documentation was fine as far as it went but we would like
>to see more about discussion on how often almonds were
>really used in period recipes" or "You need more
>documentation" or "You need to improve your presentation"
>or whatever. That would help me the most.
>Clarissa
I completely agree. I don't enter A&S to necessarily "win"
a competition. However, I have gotten great feedback and
information on how to improve my art form, which ever one is
currently displayed, from other experts. Also, by entering
or displaying, I've had a chance to get an idea of "who does
what" in our game. Alot of times the people we can really
learn from in particular areas, some are Laurels, some are
not, have gone on to do other arts, without displaying, I
would have never known that, for example, Mistress Branwyn
used to do embroidery! or that Gunnora is something of an
herbalist. These discussions are worth much more to me than
any prize in a competition.
Rhiain
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 11:49:25 -0500
From: Gunnora Hallakarva <gunnora at bga.com>
Subject: ANST - Overlooked A&S Displays - What Do You Do?
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
Llereth asked:
>> And though in an
>> ideal world one shouldn't have to, you could also go speak to the judges
>> directly, letting them know that you feel that they have overlooked your
>> work.
>
>An interesting idea. May I ask what your response to such might be?
Well...
Depends. If I did in fact go over your work carefully while you were in
the privy or otherwise unavailable, I'd say so. This happens more than you
would think.
I am one of those people who always writes a critique. Sometimes, like
Mistress Siobhan, all I can say is, "You should go talk to _________ who is
the Laurel best known for this particular art in Ansteorra," or "I can't
judge this properly knowing nothing about _______. However, _____,
_______, and _______ are all experts in the field. You should try and
speak with one or more of these people if you get the chance." Therefore,
normally you would know that I had been there while you were away.
But sometimes accidents happen, distractions abound at these events. And
if I had inadvertently overlooked it, I'd go over and take a look then. We
make mistakes too.
Master Iolo once said a very wise thing, which directly applies to the art
of judging: "The more awards you have, the longer it takes to get to the
privy." This is true, certainly, if you have a Laurel! What it means in
connection with judging is that while judging you usually have multiple
interruptions and distractions: people who want to talk to you, someone who
has a question that they believe only you can answer, a disaster in the
kitchen that only you can remedy, one of your friends has gone into
hypoglycmia and needs help... these are all things that can tear your
attention away from what you are doing!
One thing that SCA arts competitions do not usually do, but might should
consider, is to use an approach often found in art competitions at craft
shows: there the items are looked at by the judges while isolated... the
art and the judges are all in one area, the public and artisans are not
allowed in, which means that the judges can hopefully get the items judges
in the least amount of time with the most concentration.
Of course, in a "normal" art judging like this, no one gets critiques. The
judges there are free to breeze by your work if they are uninterested in it
at first glance: all they have to do is pick 1st place, 2nd place, 3rd
place, and maybe a number of runners-up and honorable mentions. Since in
SCA A&S, most people don't seem to want a clear winner or loser (unlike the
Champion style tournament that Mistress Aquillane mentioned) we don't
usually award ranked placements like 1st place etc. but we are expected to
give critiques in keeping with the focus and ideal of education and
furtherance of the arts.
While I do agree that every entrant at an A&S competition should get a full
critique from every judge in their category, you still do have to realize
that it takes a lot of time and effort. Your judges are pure volunteers...
normally we show up as Laurels and Irises, pad and pencil in hand,
expecting to be needed as judges without ever being asked. We get no pay
for this effort. Normally we must pay full site fee just as the entrants
do. We don't get free feast. And certainly no hard cold cash. Yet we are
expected to work our butts off all day long (owch! my feet!) much harder
than we work at our mundane jobs and our normal reward is complaining from
people who didn't like the critiques we did offer. At maybe a third of A&S
events, the autocrat will remember to thank the judges -- we're Laurels,
it's our job, right? But it's also our recreation time.
Don't get me wrong... judging these things *is* our job, and most of us
like doing it or we wouldn't volunteer to judge in the first place! And
giving everyone a good, thorough, critique is likewise the ideal. We try,
and maybe we need to work out better methods of doing these things. So cut
the judges from slack, don't assume malice or a deliberate snub where
overwork and distraction may be the culprits. I for one certainly don't
mind being asked if I skipped your table. So ask me if you think I have,
I'll try to make it right.
Here are some problems with A&S judging that I have seen that maybe we all
should be working on together, with some suggested ideas for improvement:
(1) non-uniform judging caused by no standardized judge training
Solution: find out what a good judge is and start teaching people.
(2) not enough judges
Autocrats and A&S coordinators, call and get a head-count on
judges who will be attending. Call more Laurels and tell them
you are short of judges and ask if they can attend. Try to have
one judge for every six entries so the judges aren't overworked.
(3) constant distractions
Close the A&S display area for a while while formal judging is
going on (won't work for body of work displays, but even there
you can run out everyone except the artisans and judges.)
(4) unappreciated judges
At the last Kingdom A&S, Saint Seraphina the Bounteous set
up a Laurels-only buffet and a Laurels only lounge area that
made it easy for the judges to take short breaks and to be sure
that they had food and beverages so they were happy and not
about to faint on their feet: this was a fantastic idea and really
made the judges feel appreciated. Remember to thank the
judges.
I'm sure that other people will be able to think of more.
Communication gets down to the root of it. Tell us if you've been missed!
There may be a very good reason, which may be a mistake, but do ask!
Gunnora Hallakarva
Herskerinde
Subject: Re: ANST - Documentation
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 09:59:20 MST
From: "Russell Husted" <husted at hotmail.com>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
<snip>
Your raise an issue that has been the subject of (occasionally heated)
debate: documentation for A&S entries. There seems to be a trend towards
putting more emphasis on documentation than on the work itself. (I'm not
picking on you or this particular competition, you just reminded me of
this ongoing debate, and some of the "fallout" it has brought.)
An artisan recently put it to me something like this: "I'm an artisan. I
make things. I make them in a period style, using period methods as much
as possible, and with as much craftsmanship as I can. But, lately, I
can't even get a positive comment from the judges, let alone win a
competition. All they want to talk about is my documentation (or lack
thereof).
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Just my two cents. What do *you* think?
Michael Silverhands
<end snip>
I would like to see two kinds of A&S. I would like to see an artisans
competition as well as the A&S as it currently is. I do many periodish
crafts that I have no way to document, much less wish to waste massive
amounts of time on doing documentation for my less important endevours.
I do not believe that a winner or an artisans competition should receive
a title posistion or anything like that, but that it should be
availible. Fighters do not document their move moves, although the
classic ones work best. Bards do not document their work, because much
of it is new-I wrote my story in this style because....
But
Arts and Sciences is just that "AND" When I produce a scroll design, I
must be able to document it. I must understand some of the whys and
wherefor of my product. My first time at refair, I almost died from
"Accent Poisoning" I was speaking with a woman who's accent was part
souther london, part northern england with an irish tinge, but not quite
scottish, and she clamed to be french. I realize most people do not
recognize accent, but I do to some exstent and I found conversation with
her almost painful. I do not hold anything against her and said nothing
to her about it, but, If I were to turn in a scroll done the same way,
this part is 4th century Irish and this part of the same page is 14th
century french, I know a few laurels who would get almost sick on the
spot-and rightly so.
I was recently in an A$S and of the 50 points possible, I lost 20% of my
score do to lack of documentation. The problem was, I did not clearly
state what I was entering. I enterred a scroll design, so I documetned
the design. The judges thought I was entering a painted scroll, because
I provided one as a sample on how that scroll might be painted. So I
lost points and received comments like, more documentation needed. It
was my fault. I did not state clearly what I was asking them to judge. I
do not feel I could have given any more documentation than what I did,
but, I could have explained clearly what I was submitting. I did get an
interview after the entire competition was over with the judge. That was
excellent. She gave me many good comments and ideas to work with. During
the interview, I explained many of the things I did and why as well as
pointed out the footnote that had been missed, and feel my score might
have changed if the interview had happened as part of the competition.
It was not for a couple of days till I figured out that they had judged
the wrong thing, and that I did not state it clearly.
I am not discuraged from A$S and will enter them again, but there are
many arts I enjoy doing that I will never enter into an A&S as long as
documentation is needed. My chainmail is chainmail, my cardweaving is
cardweaving, but I am just doing a craft. I do not want to documetn it,
unless I am doing something real speacial. There are many masters of
these and many other crafts, and I claim no level of mastery in them. I
just love to do them, but will not enter them in anything, because there
is no forum forum for just an artisan.
with respect
Mahee
a rapier fighter, a weaver, a calligrapher, an illuminator, a wood
worker, a dancer, and working on being a brewer and storyteller, as well
as a few that I can't think of right now.
Subject: ANST - Bare Table A & S
Date: Mon, 10 May 99 14:12:37 MST
From: Scot Eddy <seddy at vvm.com>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
I have often wondered which of my items would get a better score. An
acrylic painted icon with brass leaf on an acrylic gesso board WITH a
snazzy faux brick wall, incense, palm leaves, candles, and fru-fru and
documentation vs. an egg tempera icon with gold leaf on a period gesso
board and a plain frame on which to display it with documentation. All
things being equal I think that the gussied up A & S entry would be much
more likely to win.
My arguement is "If you're judging the piece, judge the piece." No need
for all of the additional material. I would like to see a rule something
to the effect of "Nothing is to be on the table but a plain, black piece
of cloth, the item, and it's documentation. Level the playing field and
return the emphasis to the item itself.
Jovian
Subject: Re: ANST - laurels competing
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 21:20:58 MST
From: HLOriana at aol.com
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
lealdricson at hotmail.com writes:
<< Some people will not enter an A&S competition where a laurel is competing
because they think that their work is not good enough. They will withdraw
or dont compete simply out of embarrassment (been there, done that). What
can be done to change this perception? The solution in the past has been to
not allow the Laurels to compete. This may not be the correct solution, but
it was one way to get contestants of lower skill levels to enter their work
so that it could be seen and critiqued. >>
In some Kingdoms it is common to compete against a standard, not
against the other artisans. An individual item can win a first, second, or
third place against that standard and there can be more than one item placed
at each level within a category. A broad category with a lot of entries
might have 3 firsts, a second and 2 thirds. A category might not have ANY
firsts, if no entry was up to that level.
Oriana
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:37:56 -0700
From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Period Ingredients, was Historical Apples
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Daniel wrote:
<<< if the documentation does not at least
mention that they are using non-period apples (a caveat similar to what has
been previously mentioned) then I too would mark the individual down. >>>
De responded:
<<< Even for a novice? >>>
I am flabbergasted that some people think that apples in our dishes
must be guaranteed period or we get points off. Well, Bunky, if this
applies to apples, it applies to EVERY SINGLE ONE of our ingredients.
And the idea that we have to explain just how period or non-period
each and every one of our ingredients is riling me up!
Now, i love doing research. And i do make an effort to replace
obviously modern ingredients with something a bit less modern. But i
just don't believe that it is possible for every ingredient.
Take my Rock Cornish Game Hens. I know they're not period. But i also
know that the chickens sold in the supermarket today in the US are
not period either.
Now, it was mentioned by someone on this list (Daniel?) that if i
didn't mention that my diminutive fowl were not period, i should have
had points taken away. But what i want to know is, if i had used a
standard chicken from the supermarket, should i have also have had
points taken away if i neglected to mention that it, too, is far from
period?
Because, lemme tell ya, when i was a kid the chickens really did NOT
have such big bazoingers as they do now. I would eat a chicken breast
and it was a reasonably sized piece of meat. But nowadays, i cut each
breast in half again because they are just farkin' HYOOOG!
I've judged a lot of cooking competitions and rarely, if ever, does
the entrant track down the history, pedigree, heritage, and
provenance of every ingredient used. And it has NOT been expected of
them.
I think if someone "goes the extra mile" to get some "perfectly
period" ingredients, they deserve props (and we have a place on our
form where judges can add up to 5 additional points). But i don't
think this should be required, and i think that people should not get
ding'ed for using chicken, turnips, or salt that they buy in the
supermarket.
-----
Do we know the breeds of the chicken, beef, lamb, goat, pork, or any
other domesticated animal we buy in the market? There have been
intensive and extensive breeding programs throughout the world,
including even bringing modern animal breeds into developing
countries, to replace their traditional breeds, which are rapidly
disappearing.
Do we know the heritage of every herb and spice we use? Can most of
us say with certainty that such things comes from stock that has not
been somehow improved or changed over the course of the intervening
500 years or more? Many spices are grown today far from where they
were grown "in period". Does this disqualify them? Should we get
points knocked off for not knowing the provenance of the seasonings
we use?
How about fruits and vegetables? Do we trace the heritage of the
seedless raisins we put into a dish? Were seedless raisins even
common in period? In the 15th c. Ottoman cookbook, for example, there
are frequently instructions for taking the seeds out of raisins. Same
goes for turnips, celery (which we all know is totally unlike period
celery), spinach, chard, cabbages, mushrooms, cherries, strawberries.
Heck, most commercially grown strawberries today (in the US and
probably most everywhere) are a hybrid of 2 New World strawberries.
So should people enter dishes only if they grow their own fraise du
bois (Fragaria vesca) or fraise hautbois (Fragaria moschata)? Should
their points be decreased for using modern strawberries?
What about rice? wheat? barley? Do we know to what degree what we buy
has been hybridized over the past 500 years? Do we know just how
close or far it is from what was used in our recipes?
How about milk? Most commercial milk in the US is from Holsteins that
have been intensively bred to produce mass quantities of milk (can't
speak for other countries, but i'm sure you have your own issues).
Yet most of us know that milk has different characteristics depending
on what breed of cow it comes from and what the animals have been
eating.
Same is true of butter, cheeses, yogurt, and every other dairy
product. How does it differ from what would have been produced in the
time period and place of the recipe we used? How much of this do most
of us know? Do we use "Philadelphia Brand" cream cheese (a detestable
execrable product) as a fresh cheese? Do we mention all the additives
in it in our docs? (i'm fortunate, i can get *good* cream cheese,
Gina Marie brand)
And before we enter a competition with a recipe using a dairy
product, are we required to determine if the animal whose milk was
used was eating a period diet?
-----
In the USA, at least, there's hardly a commercially available food
plant or animal that hasn't been altered in some way by selective
breeding or hybridizing. Do we need to state this about each and
every one of our ingredients in all our cooking entries?
I think it is ridiculous to expect entrants in SCA cooking
competitions to know just exactly how "period" every ingredient is
that they've used, and to document it!
Again, the only exceptions i can think of are when entrants have gone
out of their way to very actively track down "period" breeds or
plants, and mention this in their documentation. Then they get extra
points.
So i absolutely do not expect someone to mention whether or not their
apples are period. But so far only one person on this list has
mentioned a very very expensive way to get some apples that might
sort-of be kinda period - or at least one or two hundred years out of
period, other than growing one's own, which is just not an option for
many of us.
I was recently reading about how different modern SALT is from
historical salt of the recent past, of the 19th century - not just in
the way the salt is dried, but in the various methods now used to
produce very white salt, not to mention added anti-caking agents, the
removal of all trace minerals and the addition of iodine.
Those who have said that the entrant should have mentioned if they
weren't period, do you note in your docs that your salt is not
period, or go out of your way to get the same type of salt that would
have been used in the time and region of your recipe? Do you mention
whether your salt was from evaporation pools or from mines? What was
the size of the salt crystals? Was the salt of the time and place of
the recipe pink, rust, tan, yellow, green, grey, black? Did you buy
impure salt and purify it yourself at home? Or, if not, did you add
those directions to your documentation for your dish?
Heck, i've been marked down more than once for having 3 pages of
documentation, because certain judges are convinced that cooking
competitions docs should be only 2 pages long. I enjoy doing research
and often do so to learn about period plants and animals, and i make
an effort to at least not use blatantly modern ingredients. Now how
long will my docs be if i have to give the breeding, heritage, diet
or fertilizer and water type used for every single ingredient in my
dish?
Yes, i understand that it is good to know what sorts of items are
obviously modern (Fuji or gala apples, for example). But there's just
no getting away from the fact that, for those of us who live in
cities or are otherwise without plots of land or the appropriate
weather to grow all our own fruits, vegetables, grains, herbs, and do
not have endless time to track down the provenance of every single
ingredient and a bottomless budget to special order and have express
shipped ingredients from far way - well, most of us ARE using modern
ingredients and we can't always get the most historically accurate
ingredients.
Should we all be marked down for not mentioned in that we using
modern, and not period, salt, wheat, beef or chicken or pork, etc.?
--
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 12:06:09 EDT
From: Stanza693 at wmconnect.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cooking Competitions (was: Historical
Apples)
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
<<< What is the acknowledged purpose of cooking competitions in other
places? Are they open to anyone, or are they aimed at a particular
cognoscenti?
--
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) >>>
Here in the Barony of Dragonsspine (Colorado Springs, CO) we don't have any
strictly cooking competitions. Cooking gets lumped in with A&S as part of the
"Domestic" category so my comments address how we did our last A&S comp.
Back in September, we held our Champions competition. It is really kind of
misnamed because there was so much other A&S happening. There were three
levels to choose from:
Display only - You could just put your project out for others to sample. No
documentation was required. It's a chance to show off what you are learning,
without the stress of being judged.
Novice competition - Open to anyone who has been doing an art or science for
less than 2 years. Minimal documentation was required.
Champions competition - Graded on kingdom standard judging forms. Full
documentation was required. Expect stiff judging and strong critique.
Several other baronies use the same or similar format. The Outlands as a
whole has Queen's Prize Competition and Kingdom A&S Competition. I've lived in
kingdoms where you have to enter your project at some lower level before
advancing to a kingdom level, but I don't believe that is the case in the Outlands.
When I first began to enter competitions, I was told to consider the Kingdom
competition as "The Crown Tourney of A&S". A certain level of artisanship is
expected. I got the same kind of questions that you've been discussing. "How
do your ingredients compare to what they would have had? Why did you use a
food processor instead of a mortar & pestle? How does your menu choice compare
to what would have been served at a feast in your part of Spain?" etc. (By
the way, I use a food processor because I have very bad wrists and using a
mortar - even my uber-heavy cast iron one - causes me pain.)
On the other hand Queen's Prize, is for anyone to enter. You must be
sponsored by a Laurel, a Lady of the Rose, or a Flower of the Outlands (IIRC) to be
allowed to enter. There is no "judging" per se, but someone else's sponsor is
assigned to give you feedback. It is meant to be a more relaxed environment
in which to get pointers on your project.
I've gotten the impression that the goal of A&S competition, primarily, is to
get as close to creating a period product as is possible, which includes
cooking categories. Any substitutions are expected to be fully documented. The
secondary goal is to educate the judge (if needed) and certainly the populace
that comes by as to what would have been done in period. Given those two
goals, stated or implied, I understand why the judges seem to expect more of the
entrants.
--
Constanza Marina de Huelva
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 20:54:25 -0800
From: David Walddon <david at vastrepast.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cooking Competitions (was: Historical Apples)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Stanza wrote:
<<< I've gotten the impression that the goal of A&S competition, primarily, is to get as close to creating a period product as is possible, which includes
cooking categories. >>>
I think this is the real crux of the whole discussion. Competitions
should first figure out what they "primarily" trying to do and then
criteria should be aligned to that vision. If you are looking to
encourage participation the judging criteria should be different than
if you are looking for a Kingdom A&S Champion. And if you are looking
for the Kingdom A&S Champion what do you want in this Champion?
Someone that can present their starting point, process, findings and
the object? Or just the object? Start with the end in mind before you
develop criteria.
Eduardo
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 23:21:21 -0600
From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" <dephelps at embarqmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Display was A&S ENTRIES
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Stefan wrote:
Okay, but I often heard suggestions about putting A&S food entries
onto fancy plates, perhaps in an intricate place setting with other
food items and wine and so forth, even if the one item is all that is
being judged, and not the entire place setting.
So if all we are judging, why not just place it on a plain plate?
And I've seen other A&S entries in other areas with all this extra as
well, so it isn't only something suggested for food items. So whether
Daniel was being snarky or not, I think he brings up a good question.
Should all this extra stuff even be in an A&S display, and if it
should be, how much is too much? And is it truly the entry item
being judged or is it the entire display?
My response:
It my contention whether we admit it or not tis all display. We judge the
picture with frame that surrounds it. It is how we think and how we are.
We gild the lily without realizing we do. It is only noticed when it is
exaggerated. I asked the judges to judge the hole and not the plank that
surrounded it. They laughted and thought it a fine jest.
Daniel
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 16:08:27 -0600
From: Jennifer Carlson <talana1 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Display was A&S Entries
To: Cooks list <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
<<< Okay, but I often heard suggestions about putting A&S food entries
onto fancy plates, perhaps in an intricate place setting with other
food items and wine and so forth, even if the one item is all that is
being judged, and not the entire place setting.
So if all we are judging, why not just place it on a plain plate?
And I've seen other A&S entries in other areas with all this extra as
well, so it isn't only something suggested for food items. So whether
Daniel was being snarky or not, I think he brings up a good question.
Should all this extra stuff even be in an A&S display, and if it
should be, how much is too much? And is it truly the entry item
being judged or is it the entire display?
My response:
It my contention whether we admit it or not tis all display. We judge the
picture with frame that surrounds it. It is how we think and how we are.
We gild the lily without realizing we do. It is only noticed when it is
exaggerated. I asked the judges to judge the hole and not the plank that
surrounded it. They laughted and thought it a fine jest.
Daniel >>>
The over-dressing of a display is a personal pet peeve. The Macy's Christmas Window approach makes me think that either the entrant is hoping to hide flaws with flash, or that I'll give extra points for packaging. I find too much decoration distracting. I've seen displays that were as much as 80% froo-froo, and only 20% entry, and forced me to search through all the floral arrangements and statuary on a kind of treasure hunt for the actual entries.
On the other hand, too little can also hurt a display. Case in point: a friend once made white puddings for a competition, and displayed them on a plain white plate. Some people thought they looked unappetizing, though they tasted great. A different choice of serving dish would have enhanced the entry's presentation. In her defense, she had forgotten the serving dish she wanted to use while hurrying to pack.
His Majesty Gunthar's last Kingdom A&S entry was a meal for a 16th century officer dining in camp. They layout was simple and appropriate to the meal, comprising a tablecloth, a nice piece of crockery to hold each dish, and the necessary utensils and napkins for tasting. The display put the food in context which, if it affected my scoring on a subconscious level, probably affected how I judged his research of the time period in question. It was an enhancement without being a distraction, which is what a display should be.
Talana
<the end>