livestock-msg - 12/24/06
Medieval livestock. Pigs, cattle, sheep. Modern efforts to preserve older breeds. Differences between period and modern livestock.
NOTE: See also the files: butchering-msg, cattle-msg, pig-to-sausag-art, rabbits-msg, horses-msg, fishing-msg, animal-prices-msg, The-Sheep-art, sheep-lambs-msg.
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This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
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Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: Uduido at aol.com
To: sca-cooks at eden.com
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:51:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: sca-cooks Fatty meat
<< Possible, but it seems to me equally likely that modern meat animals are
MORE fatty. >>
Modern breeds of cows and chickens are, indeed more fatty, however, modern
pigs are decidedly LESS fatty. Until the early part of this century pigs were
specifically raised for fattiness, as lard was essential to cooking and
preserving and was generally used to make anything we would now use vegetable
shortening or cooking oil in.
(REF: The 1975 USDA Agricultural Yearbook (That We May Eat), "Streamlining
the Hog, an Abused Individual by Ruth Steyn; pgs.133-138)
From: Deloris Booker <dbooker at freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:08:11 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: SC - Re: common land for grazing, etc.
In the middle ages, the term "common land" referred to land worked
communally by the peasants/serfs for their own benefit, as opposed to
"demesne lands" which were worked by the peasants/serfs for the benefit of
the lord of the manor. All the land, whether common or demesne, belonged
to the lord.
"Common land" included fields (grain, vegetables, etc.), pasturage,
woodlands, fish ponds, etc.
Animals (cattle and pigs) were pastured on the stubble after the crops
were cut, on "pasturage" - land used exclusively for that
purpose due to its being unfit for one reason or another for croping -,
on mast (the fallen leaves and acorns of oak forests - this mostly for
pigs), and on binds - the stems left over after the beans have been
harvested.
Sheep, if being raised for the wool crop as opposed to being just meat
animals, were pastured on permanent pasturage on land that was either too
wet (the fens) or too rough - most of yorkshire for example - for
convenient cropping given the level of medieval farm technology.
The notorious "enclosures " began in the Elizabethan period and continued
right up until the 19th century. They resulted in the movement of large
numbers of rural poor into the towns and provided cheap labour for the
expanding industrial base of the elizabethan/stewart period as well as for
the much more famous "industiral revolution" of the georgeian / regency
period. (This is, by the way, a gross over-simplification of a very
complex socio/ecoonomic/political upheaval.)
Anyway, hope this is of some help.
Aldreada of the lakes
Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 09:21:02 -0400
From: nancy lynch <lughbec at erols.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Mediaeval chickens and cows
Carllein wrote:
> Current hen breeds are another wonder of modern "technology" - they lay eggs
> at abnormal times of year, like winter.
Lughbec wrote:
I have Aracanas (an older breed, still have "wild sense")
and these hens close up for the winter. No eggs. They also like to
roost in my trees at night. I have to leave a couple "pretend
eggs" in the nests or they seek out a new place to lay. They
are bad at counting, so can't tell two from twelve, but seem to
be able to tell if there is less than two and will stop laying
in that place.
<snip>
> Cows give milk after having a calf, which occurs after breeding, which also
> used to be seasonal. They didn't get help from vets with gloves up over
> their elbows (or is that out-of-date now? That is how artificial
> insemination was done 40 years ago). Cows have also been specially bred for
> abnormally high and long milk production.
While in mediaeval times there was selective breeding practiced for
some of these attributes, they were no where near what exists today,
and were not achieved equally by all feudal lords. The study of
ancient cattle breeds that still exist today indicates the
seasonality of the natural beastie.
Again, what "could have been" was not what "normally was". We make
trade outs in this matter, and try to enjoy ourselves while getting
a feel for the lifestyle of that period.
Sonas ort!
Lughbec ni Eoin
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:37:54 CST
From: "Katy Corey" <k_corey at WJHS.NWSC.K12.AR.US>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Mediaeval chickens and cows
I have araucanas, too! We love the colorful eggs. Mine have very
sweet dispositions but nearly no survival instincts. I have always
put that down to selective breeding. I agree that they have not been
selected for quantity egg production. Mine are not particularly good
mothers, either, though they like to brood eggs.
I am very interested in periodish livestock. I think that the "old" breeds
of which we have existing represntatives are mostly not really that
old, with some notable exceptions. White Park cattle are supposed to
be the original wild cattle of Britain. There is one strain that is
known to be genetically distinct from the other "British" breeds.
They are also, I read, known for being aggressive & wild as deer -
traits that have long ago been selected out of our modern breeds.
Back to my araucanas - a stray dog killed 12 of my favorites a
few weeks ago. I also have one old game hen and several of her half
araucana daughters. All of them survived - I'm sure that they flew up
in the trees and observed the slaughter. The araucanas probably had
no sense that anything would really want to hurt them.
Anyway, I'd love to here from anyone else with period animal &/or
plant projects.
Katy
Katherine of Blacklea
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:18:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Carol at Small Churl Books <scbooks at neca.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: old breeds of farm animals
>So, says I with little farming experience in my past, is it possible to
>get hold of stock of such breeds anymore? It is a thought I"ve been
>toying with, particularly after hearing about sheep "shedding" wool...
There was an article in Smithsonian on old breeds of ?cattle? ?and? ?sheep?,
some time within the last couple of years. Sorry not to be more specific.
One thing that was striking was that some old breeds were so much SMALLER
than the ones we have now. In that or some other article, there was a
description of milk cows in Ireland having once been tiny compared to what
we have now.
Also, for many years I've had dogs called schipperkes. They are small dogs
- up to 18 pounds in the U.S. Yet when they were developed, apparently in
the 1400's in Belgium, they were used to herd sheep. This worked because
the sheep were so much smaller. This information comes from a group of
people in Belgium who are interested in schips and Belgium shepherd dogs.
(There is a schip home page in the US that links to the pages in Belgium:
http://www.eskimo.com/~baubo/schip.html.)
Anyway, the point is that old breeds of sheep and cows were different in
many ways from what we have now.
Lady Carllein
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 00:56:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: DianaFiona at aol.com
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: old breeds of farm animals
<<
There was an article in Smithsonian on old breeds of ?cattle? ?and? ?sheep?,
some time within the last couple of years. Sorry not to be more specific.
>>
There was also an article in a back issue of TI on period breeds of
animals. It was short, and I think the main thrust of the article was to
interest folks in helping preserve some of the endangered breeds. I believe
there were even addresses of an organization or two devoted to the subject.
Sorry I can't remember which issue it's in, but a querry to the stock clerk
should do the trick.
Ldy Diana Fiona O'Shera
Vulpine Reach, Meridies
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 00:58:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALBAN at delphi.com
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: old breeds of farm animals
>So, says I with little farming experience in my past, is it possible to
>get hold of stock of such breeds anymore? It is a thought I"ve been
>toying with, particularly after hearing about sheep "shedding" wool...
I've seen one book on old breeds in England, in a small bookstore in
Tubac, Arizona; it might contain information on contact
groups. Unfortunately, I'll be damned if I can remember either
the title or author of the book, or the name of the bookstore.
If you can wait until December when I revisit the place, I'll
see if they still have copies.
Alban, helpful as ever.
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 14:14:23 GMT
From: "Kirsten Garner at Archaeology" <KGARNER at hsy1.ssc.ed.ac.uk>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: old breeds of farm animals
> >So, says I with little farming experience in my past, is it possible to
> >get hold of stock of such breeds anymore? It is a thought I"ve been
> >toying with, particularly after hearing about sheep "shedding" wool...
Something else I can stick my nose into. :) Going back a bit further
than the Middle Ages here....
Technically what I'm doing over here is zooarchaeology, that is - I
deal with dead animals and the early development of breeds. We've
found that the closest thing to the very early breeds of sheep and
cow are Soay sheep and Dexter cattle.
On size: back at the original domestication of animals (esp the
accepted domesticates: sheep, cattle, pigs, horses and dogs), there
was quite a dramatic loss in size (of the first three anyway). It's
one of the ways we tell early domesticates from those animals of the
same species that were hunted. Why this happened is not quite clear
but it's thought to have something to do with loss of ground for the
animals to range over and therefore loss of nutrients, combined with
the early 'farmers' lack of knowledge as to how to manage them
effectively.
Wool: all animals shed their winter coats in the spring. Modern sheep
have been bred to retain their coats a bit longer, but they too will
shed out if you don't shear them at the right time. :) So early
animals would shed out regularly. My guess would be that people in
the middle ages just knew when to shear. :)
Open to flames, comments, thoughts.....Julian
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 14:25:24 GMT
From: "Kirsten Garner at Archaeology" <KGARNER at hsy1.ssc.ed.ac.uk>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Mediaeval chickens and cows
> Anyway, I'd love to here from anyone else with period animal &/or
> plant projects.
Guess I'll sign up even though I'm not technically 'period' (bit
before). I do, however, do a lot of work with horses and breeding
thereof - not current stuff, but from domestication on. At the
moment I'm working on Iron Age stuff (PhD) but in my spare time (what
little of it there is) I work forward in time looking at the horse in
Rome, and medieval Europe. :)
The horse that we've found to be the closest to the "early" horse in
Britain is the Exmoor pony. This also seems to be the base for the
ponies used by the border reivers in Scotland through the 1300s. I
don't know if this has gotten to the US but over here there's a big
push to preserve the Eriskay pony - it's called the first true
native Scottish pony (and it sets its origin back pre-history). If
anyone's heard of this, do not be taken in. This is *not* a native
breed and if anyone's really interested, I'd be glad to set the
record straight. Just thought I'd get that out there since we're
talking about early breeds. :)
Julian
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:26:13 -0700
From: telyn at gte.net
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: old breeds of farm animals
PWAM1 at aol.com wrote:
> You might try asking a living history museum. Many of these include period
> farming for whatever period they do. They might be able to point you in a
> good direction for actually purchacing livestock for yourself.
>
> Andrea (no SCA name)
ALHFAM (The association for living historical farms and agricultural
museums- at least I *think* that's what it stands for ;-) has a page of
links. Many of the listings focus on American farm history but there
are some links to European sites that deal with medieval farming (and
even Roman agriculture!). You can find them at:
http://www.mysticseaport.org/alhfam/alhfam.links.html
Susanna von Hallwyl
--
telyn at gte.net
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:39:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Uduido at aol.com
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: old breeds of farm animals
<< I think the main thrust of the article was to
interest folks in helping preserve some of the endangered breeds. >>
Also the Farmer's Almanac lists sources for old poultry breeds in their ads.
Classifieds in gardening magazines, etc. can be a useful place to find
information. Look specifically for "Poultry Fanciers" and similar phrases.
Since preservation of genetic stock is a real and needed service, if you
possess the land and facilities to care for and breed these important
animals, I would encourage you to do so!
As far as them being a source of food> Certainly the use of actual period
type animals would be an exciting way to present period recipes but the fact
that chicken breeds from the Middle ages are skinny and scrawny, period pigs
were bred for high fat/lard yield and period cows were small and milk yield
was low, the return of these breeds for general agricultural uses is not
practical nor even desirable in the Current Middle Ages.
Lord Ras
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 08:59:31 CST
From: "Katy Corey" <k_corey at WJHS.NWSC.K12.AR.US>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Chickens & Eggs & thought on period practices
Have I got some chickens for you... I would agree that nearly
anyone who keeps chickens primarily for eggs would be thrilled to
find someone else to dress & eat the older layers & excess roosters.
Or maybe I'm the only wimp in the bunch. I love fresh yard eggs but
can't bring myself to kill the chickens.
This really is appropriate to a period discussion. Any period,
actually except our current bizarre one where we are so isolated from
the sources of our food. Long time ago I decided that if I was going
to eat meat I was going to be involved in the whole process. I have
raised and dressed out a steer, a hog, a lamb, rabbits & chickens.
This has been over a period of twenty years or so. I still hate it
and can almost not eat the meat of the animals I have raised. I'm
giving serious thought to another round of vegetarianism. (Been
there, done that, too.)
In period I would guess that though meat was a dietary staple eggs
and milk would have been more common every day foods, for the simple
reason that cows, sheep, goats & chickens can convert lots of things
that people can't or won't eat into things that we can. If you've got
a little mobile bug and/or cellulose converting machine working for
you for free, why eat the factory? With the exception of the cultures
who had unlimited grazing room & could support large herds, livestock offspring
would have represented a large part of yearly income but probably
could not have been maintained to full maturity. They were probably
eaten fairly young or traded or sold.
I've lived & visited in third world countries where the people marvel
that one family would eat a whole chicken for so few people. Their chickens
are often their most valuable possesions and an essential source of
protein. They use the eggs, then cook the old chickens up with rice, veggies, etc, & make them go a long way.
Small children around the world are delegated to watch over the family's chickens as they peck & scratch all over the village making use of all sorts of garbage. Not just children - in Indonesia I watched grown men herding their ducks into the rice fields for the day, where they ate gobs of bugs & weeds
& never bothered the rice. I'm sure it wasn't so different in period,
even in Europe. Isn't there a fairy tale about the Goose Girl?
I still hate killing my retirees. I just gave three of my old girls to a pre-school. They live in a pen surrounded by toddlers who are thrilled when they
do lay the occasional egg!
Katherine
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 18:05:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rooscc at aol.com
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Chicken & eggs thread
The upper classes might have been more knowledgeable about butchering etc than we would think. There are period references to knights and great lords butchering their dinners during wars--personal stories, I mean, where they
chased down the chicken themselves. And taking care of the kill--boars as
well as deer--was considered a knightly art like carving. In one of the
romances (sorry I can't remember which just now) the young hero is recognized as having a princely background by the expertise he shows in dividing the kill.
Alysoun
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 19:16:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Julia A. Bailey" <jbailey at mtu.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Chicken & eggs thread
> ... was considered a knightly art like carving. In one of the
> romances (sorry I can't remember
> which just now) the young hero is recognized as having a princely background
> by the expertise he shows in dividing the kill.
> Alysoun
That would be Tristan in the romance _Tristan and Isolt_, when he comes to
King Mark of Cornwall's lands.
Alix de Bois
Mistig Waetru
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:37:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Uduido at aol.com
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Chickens & Eggs & thought on period practices
In a message dated 97-05-19 22:19:08 EDT, Alban wrote:
<< I'd also suspect that even townies (even in the big cities), might have a
chicken or two, or small goat or something, out in the backyard to
eat scraps, provide milk, and such. It's amazing what can happen
without housing codes.. >>
You are correct with this assumption. It was only until recent times (this
century for the most part) that "farm" animals were forbidden in towns. I
seem to recall a story that specifically mentioned that the "herds of swine"
that were running thrugh the streets of Paris were becoming particular
annoying during the Middle Ages. I suspect that our ideas of appropriate
"life-style" may cloud our judgement of what was common in the Middle Ages
more times than any of us would care to imagine. :-)
Yours in Service to the Dream,
Lord Ras (Uduido at aol.com)
<who still feels that I should be allowed to have chickens in the yard even
tho' I live in the "city">
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:44:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Carol at Small Churl Books <scbooks at neca.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Chickens & eggs & thoughts on period practices
> Katherine mentioned a lot of things that are interesting, to me at least.
>The first is the amount a typical medieval person is involved with any
>process of daily life compared to the amount most of us are today.
A book that speaks to this directly is "A Medieval Book of Seasons" by
Collins & Davis, pub. by Harper Collins, OOP. It also has many unusual
illuminations of everyday life on the farm or manor.
>So, I guess I'd say they didn't necessarily have to confront the idea of
>killing their hand-raised animals.
Unless they were quite urban, the lord and lady had to oversee the running
of the manor, and thus probably knew a lot about the conversion of beast to
meat. Since they may never have been exposed to the concept of "pet", they
were unlikely to have our modern qualms. The Anglo-Saxons called November
"blood month", and it is only recently (historically speaking) that
delicacies like "blood sausage" have become rare or been renamed.
Many medieval pastimes were brutal to animals - they thought a lot of really
nasty things were funny. This is an area in which we are very different -
like our hygiene. This is another area in which authenticity does not
appeal to me.
Lady Carllein
From: nweders at mail.utexas.edu (ND Wederstrandt)
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:12:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: SC - lost country life
With all the discussion about chickens, cows, bees and I'm sure pigs,
sheep and goats will shortly crop up, I thought of a book I really enjoy
reading that talks alot about medieval agriculture and practical stuff.
It's by Dorothy Hartley and it's called Lost Country Life. I don't have
it at work but I can bring in the publisher and such from home. It's
very loosely based on Tusser's poem which it includes but it explains a
great many agricultural and farming practises from the middle ages. I
know it talks about types of animals and bees and how to cook in a large
cauldron. I don't know what everyone else thinks about it but I find it
really fascinating.
Clare St. John