soap-msg - 1/12/08
Period soap and soapmaking. Period recipes and recipe sources.
NOTE: See also the files: Soapmakng-CMA-art, Lye-Soap-art, candles-msg, camp-showers-msg, herbs-msg, lavender-msg, bathing-msg, perfumes-msg, Medvl-bathng-lnks, Tubd-a-Scrubd-art, Roman-hygiene-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
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Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: Lhiannan at f42.n280.z1.fidonet.org (Lhiannan)
Date: 14 Feb 94 21:11:00 -0500
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Craft question from a non-Scadian (soap)
Organization: Fidonet:The Castle of the Winds KC Mo {816} 765-1122 (1:280/42.0)
-=> Quoting s0499528 at let.rug.nl to All <=-
s0> Was there a guild for soapmakers? What size would a typical workshop
s0> be? Come to think of it, did the craft exist at all? I assumed it did,
s0> but I have no information to work on at all.
According to Dennis R. Sherman, in "Domestic Lighting: Candles, Lamps,
and Torches in History," The Compleat Anachronist, Vol. 68. Society for
Creative Anachronism:Milpitas, CA. 1993:
"The Worshipful Company of Tallowchandlers of London was constituted as a
guild by letters patent from Henry VI in 1422. ... The tallowchandlers were
certainly organized long before they were granted their charter. ...
Soap-making was part of the purview of the tallow chandlers by 1509."
"in 1545 London authorities ordered that butchers 'that use to sell theyr
tallowe to sopemakers' are 'not to sell yt in eny wyse to eny sopemakers
upon the perylls that may fall theron,' thereby reserving tallow for
candles."
These quotes would seem to indicate that there were 'sopemakers' who were
not in the chandlers guild, and politics was being played. It doesn't
really say whether 'sopemakers' ever had a separate guild, but then the
source treatise IS about candles, not soap.
From the Bibliography:
Monier-Williams, M.F., ed. Records of the Worshipful Company of Tallow
Chandlers. London:Cheswick Press, 1897.
Monier-Williams, Randall. The Tallow Chandlers of London, vol. 1-4.
London:Kaye & Ward. 1970-77.
Stanislaus, Ignatius Valerius Stanley. American Soap Maker's Guide; an
Up to Date Treatise on the Art and Science of the Manufacture of Soaps,
Candles, and .... New York City:Henry Carey Baird & Co., Inc. 1928.
s0> What would the soapmaker wear to protect himself against the lye,
s0> which apparently was rather aggressive in its unprocessed condition? I
s0> suppose glasses are a no-no?
For information on soapmaking itself, I'd suggest checking some library
books about colonial or pioneer crafts, such as Sturbridge Village, etc.
The process hasn't changed much.
Good Luck,
Lhiannan
From: Gretchen Miller <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Craft question from a non-Scadian (soap)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 13:12:47 -0500
Organization: Computer Operations, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Excerpts from netnews.rec.org.sca: 19-Feb-94 Craft question from a
non-S.. Beth Appleton at f4229.n124 (618)
> Off the top of my head, it seems unlikely that soapmakers would
> be a guild. Every housewife had the materials to hand, and only the
> poor would be unable to process the stuff.
Sure every housewife could make soup appropriate for scrubbing floors,
or washing clothes, but that doesn't mean she'd want to apply it to her
hands or face. The pretty good smelling stuff was something she was
willing to pay for. I vaguely remember some mention of imported Castile
Soap being very popular (and very expensive) in Elizabethan England
Brief summary on soap from the online encyclopedia here:
The ancient Romans spread their knoledge of soapmaking, and in the
Middle Ages important centers of soapmaking developed in Spain, France,
and England.
Given this statement, a soapmakers guild seems likely.
toodles, gretchen
From: habura at vccnw06.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Craft question from a non-Scadian (soap)
Date: 24 Feb 1994 21:28:45 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY
Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble...
The fact that a medieval person could have made something at home is not
proof that a guild for making it could not have existed. In the only
medieval art in which I consider myself well-versed (namely High Middle
Ages embroidery), a good chunk of it _was_ done in the home, but there
were also guilds of embroiderers in several English cities no later
than the 14th century (one 14th c. surviving record is a complaint by two
male embroiderers who somehow wound up being admitted as members of the
tailor's guild by mistake!)
We can also look at some of London's great guilds for confirmation. I'll
bet that quite a few people could and did make their own shoes, but that
didn't stop the Cordwainers from incorporating. Could a medieval person
have laid a stone paving? Yep, but the Pavoirs were a guild anyway. My
guess was that a guild could form for any craft where there was a
possibility for sales to outstrip the resources of a cottage industry--
embroiderers, weavers, goldsmiths--or where economies of scale made
production by professionals cheaper for the consumer than separate
home production would be--probably weavers again, glassblowers, bakers.
Take a look at your own life. I bake my own bread only if I get a craving
for piping hot, perfectly fresh bread. For daily use, I turn to my
local bakeries, who produce a good product. On the other hand, purchasing
ready-cooked food (restaurants, take-out joints) I do more rarely, because
I can do it cheaper and with relatively little effort at home. I almost never
make my own clothing, not when I can find a ready-made garment that costs less
thjan the materials I would have to purchase to make it at home.
I rather suspect that our medieval exemplars made the same cost-benefit
calculations.
Extending this to soapmaking: Sure, the simple stuff could have been
made at home. On the other hand, rendering fat and using lye (do
Castile soaps use lye? I've made modern hard soap, which does, but I have
no idea what the period methods are) is a pain in the derriere, and would
have been a good craft for a guild to coalesce around.
Alison MacDermot
*Ex Ungue Leonem*
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 21:48:15 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - Cheese recipes
Kerridwen wrote:
> Not quite cooks related, but does anyone have a source for period soap
> recipes?
I know there's a soap recipe in Thomas Dawson's "The Second Part of 'The
Good Huswifes Jewell' "...
G. Tacitus Adamantius
From: nweders at mail.utexas.edu (ND Wederstrandt)
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:06:26 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: SC - Soap
Just taking the Good Huswife's Jewel back to the library so I have it with me:
To make good sope.
First you must take half a strike of (asshen?) ashes, and a quart of Lime,
then you must mingle both these together, and then must fill a pan full of
water and seeth them well, so done, you must take four pound of beastes
tallow, and put it into the Lye, and seeth them togther until it be hard.
Clare R. St. John
From: "Sharon L. Harrett" <afn24101 at afn.org>
To: Mark Harris
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:41:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: SC - soap and cheese info source
I have not yet found a period recipe for basic soap, but there are
two "milled soap" recipes in "Delights for Ladies, Sir Hugh Plat,1609"
chapter on Sweet powders and ointments. It is in Cariadoc's collection.
Ceridwen
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 16:49:21 -0500
From: Wendy Robertson <wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Soap (was Re: Medieval Wedding)
At 12:50 AM 6/2/97 -0700, Lady Catherine Mcgire said:
> I was "surfing" last night and ran into a reference for "Milled
>Soap" in the SCA files. Someone had mentioned that it was listed under
>"Delights for Ladies" Sir Hugh PLatt 1609 chapter on sweet powders and
>oinrments". I used both Carodocs and Alta Vist to search the files but
>came up a blank . Can anyone help me, I would like to make some soap to
>have at a demo
> Lady Katherine Malverin McGuire.
I am not familiar with the specific reference to "milled soaps" in the SCA
files. However, I have researched soap making, have made soap, and have
looked at Sir Hugh Plat's book "Delights for Ladies".
In brief, if you would like to make soap (or buy soap commercially
available) for washing hands, you should look for a pure olive oil soap.
There are several good modern soap making books that can help you learn to
make soap -- check your local library.
If you are interested in period soap for washing clothing, it will
generally also be an olive oil base (canola/rape seed oil is a cheaper (and
sometimes legal according to 16th/17th English legislation) alternative).
Train oil (ocean mammals, like whale) was always illegal. Tallow was
generally used to make candles, not for soap.
Milled soap is not period. It is an 18th? century French invention
involving grinding up already made soap, mixing scents into it, and then
pressing it back into bars. One modern soapmaking book uses the term
milling for remelting soap and adding scents etc. when the lye has
saponified the oils (and thus is no longer lye and is not caustic), but
this is not true milling.
I have not seen a reference to milled soap in Plat's book. He does mention
soap twice in recipes for removing stains. One calls for a "white, hard
Soape", and the other calls for "castill sope". Castile soap is another
name for pure olive oil soap. Castile soap is white and hard. It is made
with the ashes of plants with a high sodium content so the soap becomes
hard. Soap made with potash from hardwoods (as done in England) doesn't
get hard. It was sold in pots or tubs. It was also called "black soap".
The soap for washing oneself was imported to the north from Spain, Italy,
Southern France (and sometimes from the Levant). There were soapmaking
guilds in London and Bristol. These guilds made soap for washing clothes.
I do not believe that people made their own soap in the Middle Ages.
Ailene nic Aedain
Shire of Shadowdale, Calontir
mailto:wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 15:20:18
From: Sheron Buchele/Curtis Rowland <foxryde at verinet.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Medieval Wedding and soap
At 12:50 AM 6/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
> I was "surfing" last night and ran into a reference for "Milled
>Soap" in the SCA files. Someone had mentioned that it was listed under
>"Delights for Ladies" Sir Hugh PLatt 1609 chapter on sweet powders and
>oinrments". I used both Carodocs and Alta Vist to search the files but
>came up a blank . Can anyone help me, I would like to make some soap to
>have at a demo
Several months back there was a wonderful discussion about soap and at that
time, I posted my documentation and a recipe for a fats and lye soap. I
think that it should be available in the archives from this most splendid
list. If not, if you wish, I will post it again to you privately - so as
to not clutter up the bandwidth again! If you wish it, e-mail me privately
at foxryde at verinet.com.
I haven't looked recently, but there is a Walton home page with lots of
info about soap making. I found it using a search from AltaVista.
As to period soap: whether the fats and lye bar soap is period is
generally agreed. Whether the soap was made at home, as in Colonial days,
is subject to great debate. It is generally agreed that there were soap
making guilds in period (France, Spain, and England are the ones I am
familiar with). Milled soap is soap which is allowed to soponify without
any additions - just plain soap. The plain soap is ground up and melted
then the fragrance and any additions (herbs, grains, colorants, etc.) are
added and the soap is cooled again. This requires less fragrance oils and
the additions are less damaged as the harsh soponification reaction is
already completed.
My suggetion to you, make some soap and have fun. It takes about an
evening to make, you cut it up the next day or so, and a couple of weeks to
a month to cure. It is great fun and very satisfying.
Good luck,
Baroness Leonora
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 21:43:40 -0700
From: ladymari at GILA.NET (Mary Hysong)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Soap (was Re: Medieval Wedding)
original post snipped
> Castile soap is another
> name for pure olive oil soap. Castile soap is white and hard. It is made
> with the ashes of plants with a high sodium content so the soap becomes
> hard. Soap made with potash from hardwoods (as done in England) doesn't
> get hard. It was sold in pots or tubs. It was also called "black soap".
Greetings! Having made not only 100% virgin olive oil castile soap, but
also 100% other vegetable oil soaps as well as mixed animal and
vegetable fat soaps, I can say that they do have differing degrees of
hardness. However, since I used the very same can of lye for all of
them I do not believe that the source of potash [lye] has anything to do
with the hardness of the end product, but rather, the source and type of
fat. Beef and mutton tallow make very hard soap also, while pork fat
makes a soft soap and if you reclaim kitchen grease with a high content
of chicken fat you may end up with 'jelly' soap that never gets hard!
I'm not sure about medieval soap types, milled or not ect. but when my
soap book comes home I will see if it says anything about it. I do
remember a picture of a bar of soap exhibited at some fair or exposition
pre-1600, but don't remember if it said if it was milled...
Mairi
--
Mary Hysong <Lady Mairi Broder, Atenveldt Kingdom Scribe> and Curtis
Edenfield <The C-Man>
Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 08:51:55 -0500
From: Wendy Robertson <wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Soap
At 09:43 PM 8/5/97 -0700, Mary Hysong said:
>Greetings! Having made not only 100% virgin olive oil castile soap, but
>also 100% other vegetable oil soaps as well as mixed animal and
>vegetable fat soaps, I can say that they do have differing degrees of
>hardness. However, since I used the very same can of lye for all of
>them I do not beleive that the source of potash [lye] has anything to do
>with the hardness of the end product, but rather, the source and type of
>fat. Beef and mutton tallow make very hard soap also, while pork fat
>makes a soft soap and if you reclaim kitchen grease with a high content
>of chicken fat you may end up with 'jelly' soap that never gets hard!
It is quite true that different kinds of fats with yield a different
product (including the hardness of the soap). However, the lye is also
very important. Lye that you purchase (such as a can of Red Devil lye) is
known by the chemical formula NaOH (sodium hydroxide). However, the lye
that you get from leaching hardwood ashes is KOH (potassium hydroxide).
KOH is also available commercially (although far less easily). Modern soap
making books often include recipes for soft soaps (you know, the kind you
can pump from a plastic bottle) -- these soft soap recipes use KOH not
NaOH. KOH will never yield a hard bar of soap. (The Pioneers made hard
soap with KOH by adding salt (sodium) to the mixture.) The ashes that were
leached around the Mediterranean had a high sodium content, and therefore
that lye is closer to NaOH. It is for this reason that the olive oil soap
of the Mediterranean was hard bars and used for washing people. The olive
oil soap made in England was made with KOH and was therefore sold in pots
and was used for laundry. In this case, since the oil is the same, the
difference is in the lye.
>I'm not sure about medieval soap types, milled or not ect. but when my
>soap book comes home I will see if it says anything about it. I do
>remember a picture of a bar of soap exhibited at some fair or exposition
>pre-1600, but don't remember if it said if it was milled...
I am unfamiliar with this picture and would be VERY interested to see it.
Please post the citation when you get a chance.
Wendy Robertson
mailto:wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 14:25:13 -0500
From: mary boulet <boulet.roger at mcleod.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Soap (was Re: Medieval Wedding)
Beef and mutton tallow make very hard soap also, while pork fat
> makes a soft soap and if you reclaim kitchen grease with a high content
> of chicken fat you may end up with 'jelly' soap that never gets hard!
Having made soap from both beef tallow and pork tallow, I can attest
that pork tallow will produce a soap every bit as hard as beef tallow.
In both cases, commercial lye was used. Perhaps the difference lies more
in the proportion of fat to lye, or in the type of fat (location on the
animal). In the case of the pork based soap, the tallow was from the
jowl of a hog. In the case of the beef based soap, the tallow was from
the supermarket, and, hence, of unknown derivation. The pork based soap
has minimal sudsing action, but works well in solution for such
activities as felt making. I am not so brave as to actually use it for
laundering. The beef based soap gets used around home for hand washing.
Myra Nedlesaeng, Calontir
Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 13:52:35 -0500
From: Wendy Robertson <wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Soap
At 04:38 PM 8/7/97 U, Mark Harris said:
>Ailene nic Aedain said:
>> Tallow was generally used to make candles, not for soap.
>
>I respectfully disagree with this statement.
Thank you for clarifying my unfortunately very unclear statement. Tallow
was definitely used for soap in the Middle Ages. The earliest ingredient
specific mentions of soap (Pliny, Mappae Clavicula, and possibly Capitulare
de Villes vel Curtis Imperialibus) all include tallow. (Mappae Clavicula
and the Capitulare also include oil). However, my belief (granted, without
a lot of supporting evidence) is that tallow was generally reserved for
candles. Making soap out of it was an exception. Olive oil seems to have
been the preferred fat for soaps. I would enjoy hearing evidence to the
contrary of my hypothesis.
>and this from another message:
>
>>>>>>>>>
>Just taking the Good Huswife's Jewel back to the library so I have it with
>me:
>
>To make good sope.
>
>First you must take half a strike of (asshen?) ashes, and a quart of Lime,
>then you must mingle both these together, and then must fill a pan full of
>water and seeth them well, so done, you must take four pound of beastes
>tallow, and put it into the Lye, and seeth them togther until it be hard.
><<<<<<<
Thank you for this reference!! It is the first recipe for soap making meant
for a general audience that I am aware of.
>Considering that this book was written by a merchant to instruct his wife,
>I think this also refutes the statement:
>
>>I do not believe that people made their own soap in the Middle Ages.
Are you sure the book was written as specific instruction for his wife? I
know Le Menagier de Paris and Gervase Markham's books were written for the
gentlemen's wives, but it was not clear to me from looking at the title
page of the book that this was written for his wife. There seem to be
quite a few cookbooks etc. written/compiled by both men and women starting
in the late 16th century and through the 17th century. I have looked at
more of the 17th century books (because they are in print here, not in an
arcane shelving system for microfilm that I just figured out today), but
Dawson's book seems to fit this sort of pattern rather than the specific
instructions for an individual.
This is the first evidence I now know of for soap being made in individual
households, not by specialists. However, although 1597 is certainly
period, I do not consider it to be part of the Middle Ages. I will stand
by my statement, hoping to encourage someone to prove me wrong.
The reason I believe soap was made by specialists is that there are no
other recipes that I know of meant for a general audience. (Mappae
Clavicula is mostly specialized alchemical recipes. This connection with
soap doesn't surprise me because Jabir ibn Hayyan (also known as Geber)
repeatedly mentions soap as an active means of cleansing (Ciba Review 56)).
The lack of recipes/instructions in sources such as Le Menagier de Paris
&, Tusser, as well as other recipe books from the late 16th/17th century,
and the lack of pictures of soap making lead me to believe people did not
generally make their own soap. Some of these sources include recipes for
special handwashing water or instructions for cleaning textiles - methods
which rarely involve soap. In addition, soap making was done by
specialists early on, according to the Capitulare. There was even a type
of soapmakers guild in Naples as far back as 599. Even in Jerusalem in the
16th century, where olive oil and barilla (a plant that yield high sodium
ashes needed for hard soap) were plentiful, people didn't make their own
soap. Instead, they paid the soap making facilities and the workers to
make their soap, which they would then sell or use. The chemical reaction
in soapmaking was not really understood until the late 18th or early 19th
century. This may have slowed down how quickly people started making their
own soap. In addition, there was a short lived soap monopoly in 17th
century England. Such a monopoly would not have been possible if many
people made their own soap.
If anyone has evidence to add support or refute this, please share it!
Ailene nic Aedain
Shire of Shadowdale, Calontir
mailto:wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:06:39 -0500
From: Wendy Robertson <wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Soap
At 10:10 AM 8/9/97 -0700, Mary Hysong said:
>What comes to mind is this: Olives are native to the
>Mediterranian and are the basic source of oil used for cooking as well
>as lighting [Roman oil lamps spring to mind]. Farther north [Europe,
>British Isles, Norway, ect] one sees more cattle and pigs[oh and sheep
>too] which produce a lot of fat that could be used for these things. So
>if you lived say in England, would you have imported olive oil soap or
>would you have locally made tallow or lard soap.
Yes, you would have imported olive oil soap or olive oil to make soap if
you lived in England. I also was surprised when I found this out. The
Bristol and London Soapmakers Guilds preferred to make soap out of olive
oil. Other oils were viewed as inferior. Sometimes rapeseed/canola oil
was allowed. Other oils were not allowed by Guild standards and would be
confisicated when discovered. These rules do indicate that oils other than
olive oil were used, but they were not the _preferred_ oil. And, as
previously quoted from the CA on domestic lighting, "in 1545 London
authorities ordered that butchers 'that use to sell theyr tallowe to
sopemakers' are 'not to sell yt in eny wyse to eny sopemakers upon the
perylls that may fall theron,' thereby reserving tallow for candles." This
does not indicate soap was never made from tallow, but it does show that
tallow was _preferred_ for candles. I think tallow was preferred for
candles because, as you stated, it was more common in the North. Candles
were also more important in the short days of winter in the North. I do not
think soap was as important a product, therefore tallow was to be used for
candles.
For more informaltion, see:
Proceedings, minutes and enrolments of the Company of soapmakers, 1562-1642;
edited by Harold Evan Matthews. -- <Bristol> Printed for the Bristol Record
Society <1940>
(Bristol Record Society's publications. v. 10)
>Also to remark on the
>lack of recipes and illustrations of soap making: perhaps it was SO
>common that everybody did it, so nobody wrote about it [nobody wrote any
>how to spin or weave treatsie either, to my knowledge].
However, there are plenty of depictions of women spinning and people
weaving. An interesting source about rural life in the 16th century is:
Tusser, Thomas, 1524?-1580.
Five hundred points of good husbandry, as well for the champion or open
country, as for the woodland or several; together with A book of huswifery.
Being a calendar of rural and domestic economy, for every month in the year; and
exhibiting a picture of the agriculture, customs, and manners of England, in the
sixteenth century. By Thomas Tusser ... -- A new ed., with notes ... a glossary,
and other improvements. By William Mavor ... -- London, Lackington, Allen, and
co., 1812.
Tusser discusses all sorts of activities in rural life. He lists month by
month the major work for men (and sometimes women). He has a separtate
poem stating what a housewife should do every day. Spinning is among her
tasks. Weaving is mentionned as well (I think in the fall as the time the
yarn is sold to the weaver). No where is soapmaking mentionned.
>Or perhaps the
>common, general class of folks did without or used plant sources...while
>the more well to do had it or imported it.
I agree completely with this hypothesis. Ashes, sand, fuller's earth,
soapwort, and stale urine were used as various cleaning substances.
Ailene nic Aedain
Shire of Shadowdale, Calontir
mailto:wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 12:26:52 -0700
From: Lady Catherine Mcgire <lcatherinemc at hotmail.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: soap plants
Wendy Robertson wrote:
> At 12:51 PM 8/12/97 -0500, kathleen keeler said:
> >Soapwort has "bouncing bet" as an American common name and is both a
> >considerable weed and sometimes an ornamental in North America.
> >
> >And
> >saponins are found naturally in Yucca roots--Agavaceae, the pointy-leaved
> >things of the plains and deserts, thoroughly
> >American plants, but the Americas are Period for a century or so.
> >(Native Americans used them for washing.)
>
> Have you ever tried using any of these plants to wash with? I was
> wondering how well they work, how easy they are to wash with etc.
>
> Ailene nic Aedain
> Shire of Shadowdale, Calontir
> mailto:wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
Yucca "sudes" wre very interesting. The Navaho use them to wash
the hair of the dead to prepar them for burrial. I have tried to wash
cloths in yucca on a camping trip(didn't bring enough soap) and while
they got the shirt "clean" they left a slippery residue that took
several machanical washing with comerical detergent to wash out. I added
some soap wort ot my last batch of soap. I'll test it as soon as it
cures and post the result. Its supposed to increase the lather you get
from home made soap.
Lady Katherine Malveren McGuire
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:37:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: kathleen keeler <kkeeler at unlinfo2.unl.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: RE: soap plants
> Have you ever tried using any of these plants to wash with? I was
> wondering how well they work, how easy they are to wash with etc.
I have only, with some trepidation, started growing soapwort (Saponaria).
Its an out-of-control weed in Boulder CO, where I was on sabbatical, I
hope it won't do that well here in Lincoln NE. [Of course, in Boulder
the landowners would've let me gather it.]
We tried Yucca casually in an ecology class I taught some years ago. We
peeled the "rind" off the tap root of a dead plant. The heart of the root
made a lather but we didn't do much testing. The lather was sufficiently
less than we're used to in shampoos that we weren't much impressed, but it
was clearly "soapy". Chipping at your "soap" with a knife to get lather
was also a strange experience: we figured a fresh cut would release the
saponins..
That was Yucca glauca in western Nebraska. By the time you get to Phoenix
there are a _lot_ of other species.
Agnes
Mag Mor, Calontir
kkeeler at unlinfo.unl.edu
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:30:51 -0500
From: Wendy Robertson <wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: RE: soap
At 11:09 AM 6/3/97 -0700, Lady Catherine Mcgire said:
> I called it
>"lye" soap in reference to what my sources called soap made with "Lye
>and a fat source, not to confuse it with soap made from plant sources
>without a caustic element.
I am sorry I misunderstood you. If I am now understanding corectly, you
were comparing the substance made from fats and alkali (known variously as
"soap" or "lye soap") with those plants that have saponins and are
therefore used for cleaning.
For the benefit of others on the list, I will quote some sections from the
Encyclopaedia Britannica (1991) to explain the difference.
"Saponins--chemical substances that produce soapy lathers--are present in
the fruits, seeds, and other tissues of many members of the family
Sapindaceae; genera such as Sapindus, Aphania, and Paullinia are used in
tropical countries as soap substitutes." (vol.13, p.691)
Soapwort (Saponaria officinalis) is one source of saponins and was commonly
used in the Middle Ages.
"Hot caustic alkali solution, such as caustic soda (sodium hydroxide), acts
on natural fats or oils, such as tallow or vegetable oil, to produce sodium
fatty acid salt (soap) and glycerin (or glycerol). This saponification
reaction is the basis for all soapmaking."
"Sodium hydroxide is employed as the saponification alkali for most soap
now produced. Soap may also be manufactured with potassium hydroxide
(caustic potash) as the alkali."
(vol.21, p.262)
What we generally call lye today is "caustic soda" or sodium hydroxide
(NaOH). The other type of lye of which I am aware is "caustic potash" or
potassium hydroxide (KOH). Leaching hardwoods for lye yields caustic
potash. Leaching seaside plants, such as barilla, yields a higher
proportion of "caustic soda". Both types of lye were used in period.
>From the above definition of soap from the Encyclopaedia Britannica, it is
clear that an alkali (i.e. lye) is necessary for the chemical reaction of
true soap.
Ailene nic Aedain
Shire of Shadowdale, Calontir
mailto:wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 09:07:04 -0500
From: Wendy Robertson <wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Castile Soap
This is a good question. I have not found clear information on this. I
will first review the earliest definite references to ingredients I know of:
1. Pliny the elder (who died in pompeii) mentions soap made of tallow
(especially goat's tallow) and ashes used as a hair pomade by the Gauls.
2. The Capitulare de Villis vel Curtis Imperialibus (c794) mentions soap,
tallow, and oil together; it is not clear whether it was made out of one or
both ingredients
3. Mappae Clavicula (9th c, maybe earlier - north of the Alps) has recipes
for both olive oil and tallow
In less scholarly sources I have read:
The Phoenicians (I think) made soap of cassia oil and barilla (I would love
to be able to find information on this); I have not found any refernce to
this in scholarly sources, which makes me very suspicious of the information
Soap works were found at Pompeii (I have not found evidence for this and
given that Pliny mentioned soap as a foreign item and died at Pompeii, and
that Pompeii was not really an industrial city, I doubt this)
Most early (pre 1000) references to soap that I am aware of come from
Southern Europe. It was known to the Anglo Saxons, but I don't know how
widely available it was. A leechbook states "add thereto of old soap a
spoon full, if thou have it". This implies it was not always available.
It also suggests the Anglo-Saxons had a soft soap, made of potash from
hardwoods, not barilla.
Soap made from olive oil is nicer than soap made from tallow, in my
opinion. Olive oil was readily available in Southern Europe where I have
found most early reference to soap. I know olive oil was known by people
in Northern Europe by the 9th century. The manuscript probably has it's
origins from southern Europe, date unknown. However, the full transalation
of Mappae clavicula is from the 12th century. The soap recipes do not
appear in the portions surviving before this, so it may have been added later.
Not a very good answer, but it's the best I have found so far.
At 11:00 PM 8/15/97 -0600, John or Fraya Davis said:
>I have thoroughly enjoyed the discussion on soap lately and have added much
>of it to my alchives. I would like more information regarding "castile
>soap". I have read, with limited resources available and little
>documentation, that soap made with olive oil, known as castile soap, was
>made in ancient Rome--pre SCA. Can someone help me with facts regarding
>this: When the first olive oil soap was documented, where it was from, when
>it began being used in Europe and the Isles? This would be most appreciated
>as I am planning to teach it to our populace very shortly.
>
>Gillean Fhlaitheamhail
Wendy Robertson
mailto:wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:56:34 +0600
From: james mabrey <braefiddich at sprintmail.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Soap Making Article
Gillian:
I enjoyed your article on soapmaking very much. Well done. A few
things we have found in our soapmaking - If you want to hurry up
removing your soap from the molds, after the 48 hours or so of
hardening, you can put it in the freezer overnight. It pops right out
of the molds. My mother's castilian, which of course is strictly olive
oil for fat, does not have the problem with the oil coming to the top
after pouring in the mold. I'll check with her for details.
We have always placed our additives directly into the initial soap
mixture, just prior to pouring. (essential oils, pumice, herbs, etc.).
I have not noticed any problems in the final products.
If one wants to make a soap with a higher content of goats milk (or
other milk), replace some of the water with a equal amount of milk in
the initial recipe. The temperature is really important here! If it is
too high you will carmelize the milk sugars. it doesn't hurt the
quality of the soap, it just makes it dark. We have had good success
with varying quantities of milk. I guess we could afford
experimentation, as we have a seemingly endless supply of goats milk.
Bronwyn nic Dougal
Calontir
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:24:41 -0400
From: "Elyse C. Boucher" <70521.3645 at compuserve.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: SCA-ARTS digest 1144
Greeting from the humble scrib Merouda Pendray.
Looking for soap references after Pliny and before Strassburg?
Try Mappe Clavicula, available in translation from the American
Philosophical Society, which exists in various copies made in the
9th-12th centuries. Excellent resource for a whole varietis of subjects,
as it is a collection of receipts for a wide range of things, like
seseme seed candy, construction of battering rams, flaming arrows, scribal
materials, and....soap. :-)
I'm at work, can't recollect the whole cite off the top of my head, but
I do have the refernce in my online biblio, in the instructions subset,
at http://www.geocities.com/merouda/aboutbib.html.
Your Typo-makin' Servant,
Merouda
Date: 9 Jun 00 10:36:39 EDT
From: Nora Siri Bock <heathentart at usa.net>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: Frankincense & Smells
>>OED online, look up 'sope', you will find direct
quotes.<<
Not to quibble, but "sope" was first mentioned in the Old Testament. Sorry,
but I didn't write down the specific reference. It's been debated ever since
whether it specifically meant "soap" or referred to a soap-like substance from
vegetation, i.e. soapwort, soapbark or any saponin-containing plant.
The Greeks and Romans didn't use hard soap, but a stringy liquid mass, origin
unknown. They also used oils and scrapers to remove dirt from the body.
The first use of hard soap is attributed to the Gauls, sometime around
1000-1100. I've yet to see an original reference to soap <and, believe me,
I've gone through 300 books in two years searching>. Early useage is also
attributed to the Arabs, and, of course, Castile, Spain. Unfortunately, I
don't read Latin, so I can't read the available mss of Pliny and Dioscorides.
Following it was "Frankish" soap and "Marseilles" <late Middle Ages and which
was a bastardization of Castile soap>.
Nora Bock
Siri bint Saadia
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 03:54:00 +0100
From: TG <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: Re: SC - manual ? #4, #5
<< Now, i can't guarantee that Chypre as i know it dates back to the
time of this manual, but it would be something to look into...
So the Chipre soap could be Chypre scented soap. Or maybe it's a soap
imported from or imputed to be from Cyprus... >>
There are several handbooks for merchants of spices and drogues of the
14th and 15th centuries. From the list of products given in the Gual
Camarena article (1964) I take it, that "ensens" (incense) or "sabó de
Xipre" (Cyprus soap) are mentioned or described in Italian and Catalan
merchant manuals of the 14th and 15th centuries. Thus, Cyprus soap seems
to have been kind of a standard product of a 15th century merchant of
the iberian peninsula. In 1981, Miguel Gual Camarena published a
transcription of this text, and it might be helpful to look what this
text (and the other ones of this type) says about "sabó de Xipre" and
the other ingredients.
Thomas
(The following references are gathered from the Gual Camarena article of
1964; the information about his transcription is from the Copac
database:
- -- Gual Camarena, Miguel: Un manual Catalán de mercadería (1455; Libre
de conexenses de spicies, e de drogues e de avissaments de pessos, canes
e massures de diverses terres). In: Anuario de Estudio Medievales 1
(Barcelona 1964) 431-450.
- -- Gual Camarena, Miguel (ed.): El primer manual hispanico de mercaderia
(siglo XIV). Barcelona 1981 (Anuario de estudios medievales, Anejos 10).
- -- Pegolotti, Fr.B.: La pratica della mercatura. Ed. A. Evans.
Cambridge, Mass. 1936. Reprint New York 1970.
- -- Sapori, Arm.: La cultura del mercante medievale italiano. Florenz
1955.
- -- Uzzano, Giov. di Antonio da: La pratica della mercatura (1442). In:
G.F. Pagnini della Ventura: Della decima e di varie altre gravezze
imposte dal comune di Firenza, della moneta e della mercatura
de'Fiorentini, fino al secolo XVI. Vol. IV. Lissabon 1766.
- -- Borlandi, Aurora (ed.): Il manuale di mercatura di Saminiato de'Ricci
(1396). ???.
- -- Borlandi, Fr. (ed.): El libro di mercatantie et usanze de'paesi [ca.
1458; attr. a Giorgio di Lorenzo Chiarini]. Turin 1936.
- -- Cessi, R./ Luzzatto, G. (eds.): Tarifa zoè noticia dy pexi e mexure
di luogi e tere che s'adovra marcadantia per el mondo. Venedig 1925.)
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 20:52:32 -0400
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Soap
Sue Clemenger wrote:
> Soap....I'm going with some (relatively) modern recipes, and using all
> the modern safety precautions (I've got a friend who was burned with
> lye, and the scar is NOT pretty, nor is the description she sent me of
> her skin bubbling and turning black....<blech>). I've got _no_ period
> references, other than some anectdotal (un-footnoted, etc.) stuff in the
> introductory section of a couple of books. One reference in a class
> handout to "castile" soap, in a recipe apparently taken from Plat's
> _Delights for Ladies_ (anyone on this list know the dates for that, by
> the way?).
> Anyone out there have any sources on period soap recipes, references,
> etc.? (besides the Florilegium, of course <g>).> --Maire
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Platt or Plat is a 1600? for the earliest edition, according
to my notes. That edition is not reproduced, but the 1602 edition
and the 1608 and 1609 editions are. The 1948 Fussell edited
edition is the 1609 edition. There are editions going up to 1656.
Soap mentions are found in The English Countrywoman by G.E. and K.R.
Fussell. 1953, 1981,1985.
Also see Lost Country Life by Dorothy Hartley, 1979.
And a one with recipes that is practical, if not historic,
is entitled: Secrets of the Still by Grace Firth. EPM Publications
of McLean, Virginia published it in 1983. She covers soap in a couple
of pages, but also covers making creams, oils, and stillroom products
using stills. It's one of the only books that I know of that covers
use of stills for home use. I should have some other references, but
I shall have to dig them up.
Johnnae llyn Lewis Johnna Holloway
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mediaeval Things to Do with Old Oil?
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 23:09:09 -0800
"Mark S. Harris" <stefanlirous at austin.rr.com> wrote:
> Greetings from Stefan li Rous,
>
> alchem at en.com (James Koch) wrote:
> > Robert Uhl <ruhl at 4dv.net> wrote in message
> > > Seeing how easy it is to make soap, today I ran to various stores and
> > > procured molds in various shapes, essential oils of lemon and geranium,
> > > some fresh lye and some almond oil. Easy Christmas gifts this year.
> > >
> > > Oh yeah: the cooking oil _won't_ go into the gift bars.
> > >
> > So now your problem is "Medieval Things to Do with Old Glycerin?"
> > Glycerin and rosewater are a possibility. There is something
> > interesting I have read. Soap is supposedly an invention of the
> > middle ages. Apparently the stuff didn't exist during classical
> > times.
> > >
> > Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)
>
> Well, that is what I thought several years ago. But some opposing info
> has come out. It may be that the Gauls introduced soapmaking to the
> Romans. They didn't necessarily use it for personal bathing though, even
> if they had it.
A little googling gives me:
---
A soap-like material found in clay cylinders during the excavation of
ancient Babylon is evidence that soapmaking was known as early as 2800
B.C. Inscriptions on the cylinders say that fats were boiled with ashes,
which is a method of making soap, but do not refer to the purpose of the
"soap." Such materials were later used as hair styling aids.
Records show that ancient Egyptians bathed regularly. The Ebers
Papyrus, a medical document from about 1500 B.C., describes combining
animal and vegetable oils with alkaline salts to form a soap-like
material used for treating skin diseases, as well as for washing.
---
How reliable the source is I don't know.
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
<the end>