bathing-msg - 2/12/08
Bathing and cleanliness in the Middle Ages.
NOTE: See also the files: p-hygiene-msg, perfumes-msg, prostitution-msg,
cosmetics-msg, hair-msg, p-dental-care-msg, soap-msg, handcream-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: shelanst at neonramp.com (Tracy Shelanskey)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Authentic" in SCA parlance
Date: 21 Feb 1996 18:19:01 GMT
In article <4ge4l1$lb6 at texas.nwlink.com>, masters at nwlink.com says...
>And look at all the things which SCAfolk (even the "correct" ones) do all
>the time which are NOT "correct." Scribes hand write and draw documents,
>but do they use parchement, vellum, or hand-made paper? Do they make
>their own inks and quills? Bards play guitars, with metal frets and
>strings (the nearest historical equivallent is the spanish vhuela, with
>gut strings and gut frets). Folks wear costumes of modern stuff, carry
>steel instead of iron or damascened swords, portray themselves as
>litterate when most should not be, and some even take baths. "Correct?"
>
> - Warren of the Just Plain
> Who would Never offend historical sensibilities
> by taking an un-period bath!
Just a note-- periodness varies greatly depending on *where* and *when* your
persona is. As a Rus I would have bathed fairly often (by medieval standards,
anyway.) The Rus had large public baths similar to the Romans. I've read
(though at the moment I can't cite the source) that very wealthy boyars, and certainly the prince, had a private bath in the home--the family would bath together.
Would this leave one as clean as we expect by todays standards? I doubt it, but it's still a bath ; )
Tatjana Nikonovna
From: nqf2312 at is2.nyu.edu (Norman J. Finkelshteyn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Authentic" in SCA parlance
Date: 22 Feb 1996 00:38:39 GMT
Organization: New York University
Just a small nit to pick, so to speak.
Tracy Shelanskey (shelanst at neonramp.com) wrote:
: Just a note-- periodness varies greatly depending on *where* and *when* your
: persona is. As a Rus I would have bathed fairly often (by medieval
: standards, anyway.) The Rus had large public baths similar to the Romans.
The Rus bathes were not like those of the Romans. They are similar to the
Russian baths of today. And they got just as perplexed a reaction from
foreigners then as they do today.
The Russian Primary Chronicle (I think that's the book's English name)
reports that, when St. God-Knows-Who returned from Russia to Greece he
said (I'm paraphrasing) "These people are realy weird, they go into a hot
building filled with steam and beat themselves with branches. And this is
not a pennance, they do this for pleasure!"
Nahum ha Kuzar
From: shelanst at neonramp.com (Tracy Shelanskey)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Authentic" in SCA parlance
Date: 22 Feb 1996 15:24:43 GMT
Organization: Here Be Dragons
In article <4ggduf$qel at cmcl2.NYU.EDU>, nqf2312 at is2.nyu.edu says...
>
>The Rus bathes were not like those of the Romans. They are similar to the
>Russian baths of today. And they got just as perplexed a reaction from
>foreigners then as they do today.
>The Russian Primary Chronicle (I think that's the book's English name)
>reports that, when St. God-Knows-Who returned from Russia to Greece he
>said (I'm paraphrasing) "These people are realy weird, they go into a hot
>building filled with steam and beat themselves with branches. And this is
>not a pennance, they do this for pleasure!"
>
>Nahum ha Kuzar
Yes, after I wrote the first, I decided I really should have looked it up first. I went to my books and discoved my error. Steam baths were common. Kiev had a roman type bath built in 1090 by a Greek named Efram of Pereiaslav (he was actually a bishop.) It was a first in Russia. It is not mentioned anywhere else that I could find, so it seems not to have caught on much.
That will teach me to look before I write!
Tatjana
From: nqf2312 at is2.nyu.edu (Norman J. Finkelshteyn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Authentic" in SCA parlance
Date: 27 Feb 1996 20:23:37 GMT
Organization: New York University
IVANOR at delphi.com wrote:
: Quoting nqf2312 from a message in rec.org.sca
: >the Russian baths of today. And they got just as perplexed a reaction
: >from foreigners then as they do today.
: >The Russian Primary Chronicle (I think that's the book's English name)
: >reports that, when St. God-Knows-Who returned from Russia to Greece he
: >said (I'm paraphrasing) "These people are realy weird, they go into a
: >hot building filled with steam and beat themselves with branches. And
: >this is not a pennance, they do this for pleasure!"
: >Nahum ha Kuzar
: Sounds like a sauna to me....
Well, the "really weird" part (and the part that makes for a proper
Russian bath) is that one gets one's friends to beat him with a broom of
leafy branches constructed specifically for the purpose.
Otherwise, it is a sauna (the Roman bath, however, was a much more
complicated affair - with hot, cold, and warm/ dry and wet rooms and
lockers)
Nahum
From: nancyl at universe.digex.net (Nancy Lebovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: baths, was Re: "Authentic" in SCA parlance
Date: 7 Mar 1996 12:20:57 -0500
Organization: Universal Access by Digital Express. 800-969-9090
In article <nostrand-0303961536210001 at moe10.slip.yorku.ca>,
Barbara Nostrand <nostrand at mathstat.yorku.ca> wrote:
>Noble Cousins!
>
>Duke Carriadoc wrote:
>
>> Except that medieval manuscripts have lots of pictures of people taking
>> baths in tubs of water.
>
>Actually it goes far far beyond this. The Vandals were known as decadent
>because their nobles immersed themselves every day. The churchmen of the
>middle ages were constantly writing diatribes against the public baths of
>the middle ages. We have lots of woodcuts of people immersing themselves
>and even of mixed bathing in the buff. Please read the volume from a
>History of Private Life which concerns the Middle Ages. You will learn
>that far from eschewing baths, the medievals relished their baths.
>
I had a vague idea that the religious attacks on bathing were based
on bathing/cleanliness as pleasures in themselves rather than
licentiousness in the public baths. Was I at all right?
Nancy Lebovitz (nancyL at universe.digex.net)
From: gileshill at aol.com (Gileshill)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Caidan Camping
Date: 23 Feb 1997 02:58:48 GMT
Natalya asked (presumably about the inhabitants of the Middle Ages and
Rennaissance):
>Didn't they have hot tubs? Sure they did! The Romans must have left
>at least ONE sunken tub in England when they left....
Actually, Your Grace, recent excavations at Hampton Court (reported in the
Nat'l Geographic) found a sunken tub next to a hearth in what would have
been the privy appartments of Henry VIII Tudor, and his daughter Elizabeth
is reported to have had a bathing room at Whitehall with a mirrored
ceiling. (Which lends credence to Magistra Astra's contention that 'just
because it's period doesn't mean it's in good taste!")
Giles
From: Rebekah and Chip <rinman at ucsd.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Caidan Camping
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 06:20:35 -0800
Organization: University of California, San Diego
It seems as though Natalya may have opined:
> (Didn't
> they have hot tubs? Sure they did! The Romans must have left at least
>ONE sunken tub in England when they left....)
I will note at this point that one of the items deemed so necessary that
it made its way onto the packing list of what a byzantine emperor should
take on campaign with him was...
A Turkish bath, called in Scythian _tzerga_, with a hide
cistern of red leather; 12 three-measure pitchers; 12 grates
for the bath (pp 105-7)<see note>
and also, BTW,
chairs for the chamber-pot, of metal gilded with beaten
gold, with covers, and with other covers above concealing
the space for the latrine; and for the distinguished refugees
two other, similar, seats, bound in silver; (p 109) <see note>
The above from a charming set of treatises written by Constantine VII
Porphyrogenitus to his son, telling him how to conduct a military
campaign in standard, byzantine fashion (i.e. in the lap of luxury).
You should read about the dinner table: lamb, veal, lobster and other
shell-fish...
Chip
<note> _Constantine Porphyrogenitus: Three Treatises on Imperial
Military Epeditions_ (Wien, 1990), ed. trans. and notes by
John F. Haldon
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:11:11 -0600
From: mfgunter at tddeng00.fnts.com (Michael F. Gunter)
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
Subject: ANST - Bathing
> The bathing thing does seen to come up quite often..especially right after
> the tourney is over! <grin> My reading does seem to indicate that the at
> least the Northern groups, i.e. Norway, etc. were fond of a daily dousing
> and combing of the hair. Seems kind of odd, considering the water
> temperature up there. So, go figure!
> Ulrica
There's also the fact that they enjoyed steambaths which actually clense fairly
well. Once sweated out they would pour cold water over themselves, jump in a
nearby lake or handy snowbank. Very refreshing! But it did serve to get a lot
of the oils and dirt off.
There were also washing bags that were moderately common. Bags filled with
oatmeal and sometimes dried flowers. The oatmeal is a natural cleanser and
skin softener. Dipped in water and lathed on the body it cleans fairly well
without the need for the full bath.
Gunthar
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:06:32 -0600
From: mfgunter at tddeng00.fnts.com (Michael F. Gunter)
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
Subject: Re: ANST - Bathing
> >Gunthar
> >
> >BTW. I have used the washing bags and a pan of water for a quick
> >sponge bath and I really did feel and smell much better.
>
> Could I trouble you for the reciepe? They sound very handy....
>
> Kateryn Heathrydge
> Three Rivers, Calontir
The "recipe" for this is really quite simple. Take three parts good oatmeal,
real oatmeal not quick oats to one part organic dried flowers of your choice.
Mix them together and sew them in a bag of a soft, open weave type cloth.
Linen is a nice choice.
To use, just dip the bag in water and lathe over the skin. When you are finished
hang the bag (it's a good idea to sew ribbons or such on the bag for this
purpose) and massage it occasionally to make sure the insides get dried out.
You can also hang these under your tap for a nice bath. They are also fairly
good air fresheners.
I think you will like them.
Gunthar
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:27:59 -0700 (MST)
From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Viking and early Irish foods
On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Par Leijonhuvud wrote:
> One potential source that I haven't seen anything on is what was
> recorded regarding the customs of the Scandinavians while traveling and
> living in the east. Anyone know if this has been explored at all? It
> should be easier nowadays, when the "slavs and only slavs" doctrine is
> less prevalent over there.
>
> /UlfR
Only comment on the Vikings Away From Home that I remember is a Byzantine
one saying that they didn't wash - even after sex! Those effete Greeks...
Elaina
Subject: Re: Period bathing info
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 14:45:17 SAST-2
From: "Ian van Tets" <IVANTETS at botzoo.uct.ac.za>
To: Stefan li Rous <stefan at texas.net>
Cairistiona, by the grace of God wife to Jan van Zeist and citizen of
the fair Shire (no longer incipient!!) of Adamestor, to Lord (?)
Stefan li Rous, keeper of the Florilegium, doth send greeting.
> Yes, I would love to get this description of the bath. Both for my
> own interest and for the Florilegium. I have very few period examples
> of bathing. This sounds wonderful.
Herewith the original:
De balneis.
155 It is not strange, if water wol suffice,
An husbonde on his baathe to bethought;
For therof may plesaunce and helthe aryse.
Towarde the sonne on drie it must be wrought,
Southwest and southe the sonnes ynne be brought,
That alle the day it may be warme and light;
The celles suspensures thus thou dight:
156 First floore it II foote thicke, enclyninge softe
The forneis warde, so that the flamme upbende
The celles forto chere and chaufe olofte;
And piles maade of tiles must ascende
Two foote and half, and two foote wide attende
Hem forto sette, and upon hem thou sprede
A marble floor, or tyle it yit for nede.
157 A myliair of lede, the bothom brasse
Anende the feetes sette it so withoute
The fourneis, and the fire ther undre passe.
A conduite cold into it bringe aboute,
Make pipes water warme inwarde to spoute,
The celles square oblonge as X in brede,
As for XV in length is oute to sprede.
158 For hete in streite is gretter then in large;
But seetes make yfourmed as the list.
The somer celles light thou enlarge
Upon the north, but winter celles wist
From north; the southern light is best, as wist
Is well; and all the wesshe out of thi bathes
The garden thorowe to go therto no scathe is.
159 The chambres in the bathes may be wrought
As cisterne is, but wol be well the stronger,
And other waies fele, yf thai besought,
As clene as it, but thai be yit unstronger.
Thi winter hous to sette eke studie lenger
Uppon thi bathe; for lo the groundes made,
And hete of it thi winter house wol glade.
De malthis calidariis vel frigidariis
160 Convenient it is to knowe, of bathes
While speche is made, what malthes hoote and colde
Are able, ther as chynyng clifte or scathe is
To make it hoole, and water well to holde.
For bathes hoote ammonyake is tolde
Right goode with brymstone resolute ypitte
Aboute in evry chynyng, clifte, or slitte.
161 Or thus: hardde pitche, and wex, take even weight,
And herdde with pix liquide herto eche
An halvendele, and grounden shelles dight
With flour of lyme: al thees comixt wol deche
Every defaute, and all the woundes leche.
While wex, hardde, pitch, remysse ammonyake,
Thees three comixt therfore is good to take.
162 Or thus: ammonyak remysse, and figges
With pix liquide and herdde sore ygrounde
To cleme upon right suffisianntly bigg is;
Or flour of lyme in oil, yf thou confounde
And helde it in, upheleth it by grounde,
But kepe it drie awhile, eke boles blode
With oil and floure of lyme admyxt is goode.
163 Eke oister shelles drie and alle to grounde
With harde pitche and with fygges doth the same;
But malthes colde in other crafte thou founde,
Ox bloode with pitche and synder alle to frame,
And make it like a salve, and overflame
Iche hoole and chene, or siften askes clene
And sevum molton helde in evry chene.
Editor's comments:
156: forneis = furnace; piles = pillars;
157: myliair = miliarium, which supplies the bath with hot and cold
water.
158: streite = narrowness
159: winter hous = room or canopy to keep heat inside in winter
160: malthe = cement for repair; brymstone resolute = dissolved
brimstone (sulphur?) - mix with ammoniac to repair hot baths.
161: herdde = tow; remysse ammonyake = powdered ammoniac.
162: figges = yes, figs!; boles bloode = bulls'/bullocks' blood
163: synder = cinders; overflame = (apparently) smear; sevum
molton = melted tallow. These last 5 lines are cements for the cold
baths only.
Palladius on Husbandrie
tr anonymously in about 1420. MS held at time of publication (ie.
1873) in Colchester Castle. Ed. by Revd. Barton Lodge, published by
Early English Text Society.
This is from book 1 (of 14).
Palladius Rutilius Taurus AEmilianus, wrote apparently particularly
for husbandry in Italy (but not exclusively), about the time of
Theodosius (4th Cent AD).
*************************************
Cairistiona nic Bhraonnaguinn
Christina van Tets
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 19:45:46 -0400
From: "Alderton, Philippa" <phlip at morganco.net>
Subject: SC - CA 13- Dining in the tub.
This is from CA
13, page 10, above a picture of a lady and a gentleman playing in a large
tub, with two more ladies bringing in a ewer and a plate.
" The Crusades, along with their many other influences, brought back to
Europe a practice that certainly influenced the appearance of nudes in art:
public baths. European baths started before 1100 and were initially
segregated, but not for long. By the 13th century in England baths and
brothels were interchangeably called "stewes". The baths were a constant
target of moral reformers, and were sporadically banned altogether, or at
least segregated again. These interludes of decency do not appear to have
ever lasted very long. Tubs sized for two people seem to have been the rule.
Aside from providing a subject featuring nudes, baths provided a source of
figure studies for artists."
And that's it, in CA 13.
Phlip
Philippa Farrour
Caer Frig
Southeastern Ohio
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 17:05:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Laura C Minnick <lainie at gladstone.uoregon.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - CA 13- Dining in the tub.
On Sun, 18 Jul 1999, Alderton, Philippa wrote:
> " The Crusades, along with their many other influences, brought back to
> Europe a practice that certainly influenced the appearance of nudes in art:
> public baths.
Interesting idea, but the CA authors missed a few things here and there
(for the which I am willing to forgive them- #13 was written a long time
ago). Public baths far predate the Crusades- after all, the Romans built a
great deal of them, all over Europe. There was even a public bath at the
trading center at Londinium. Many of the Roman baths were in use up to and
through the Middle Ages. A Roman bath at Aachen was converted to a bath by
Charlemagne, for the Emperor's personal use.
Also (I might be wrong about this, but...) it is my suspicion from my
understanding of Saracen culture that they did not approve of mixed
bathing, as it would be quite shameful for the sexes to be publicly naked
in that manner, and that they looked down on those barbarian Westerners
for doing so.
As to artists- it is my understanding that working from a live model was
rare, even more so a nude one. I suspect that any sudden interest in
drawing/painting nudes had less to do with baths and more to do with
renewed interest in the Greek ideals of art and beauty.
Just my two deniers...
'Lainie
- -
Laura C. Minnick
On Mar 23, 8:19 pm, storey2617hi... at comcast.net (JJS) wrote:
> > IMO, situation with the rural bathing varied from place to place. For
> > example, in Russia and Scandinavia the bathing houses were a common
> > place. In the rural Russia peasants quite often had their own 'bania'
> > and weekly bathing was considered a religious duty. Situation in the
> > cities could be worse not better.
>
> From History of Russian Bath
>
> ³Going to bania is a very old Russian custom. From medieval times it
> was popularly seen as a national institution, and not to bathe in one
> at least three times a week was practically taken as a proof of foreign
> origins.
>
> Most villagers in Russia had a bathhouse, usually some way off from
> the rest of the houses in the village, where possible near water. The
> bathhouse had its own resident sprite, the bannik, the most hostile of
> the Russian domestic goblins, and was not a place to visit alone. The
> bannik was envisaged as a naked dwarf or a little old man. The proper
> time for people to use it was the five or seven hours before the midday.
IIRC, a 'normal' bathtime was before holyday's midday church service
so that people would go to the church clean.
> Only three or two bathing sessions were safe, after that it was Devil's
> turn and no peasant would go in after the third session or after the
> sundown. A site of former bathhouse was considered to be unclean, even
> evil and new houses were not built there.²
>
> Seems strange that the bathhouse had a hostile goblin and was considered
> so unsafe but was still used as often as it was.
>
> Joe-
Well, every house had its own goblin, domovoy, who also was not a very
pleasant creature and could even arrange for a slow death of an
offending or simply disrespectful person. However, people lived in the
houses 24x7. AFAIK, most if not all creatures of the Russian folklore
were, to the various degrees, unpleasant and dangerous: rusalka
(mermaid) in the river, leshii and baba-yaga in the forest, kikimora
in the swamp, etc. People had been afraid of them but had to live
somehow. :-)
From: "Peter Jason" <pj at jostle.com>
Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Bathing and cleanliness in medieval ages
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 08:55:03 +1000
These's a wonder medieval painting on this
subject related (I suppose) to the "Roman de
la Rose" thing, and pictures a curious mix of
fashion and bathing.
Of course I've forgotten the name of it.
Anyway, the people present are dressed in the
fashion of about 1470 with tall hats and
voluminous dresses, all affecting
aristocratic poses. To the left of the
picture is a room containing solely a tub of
water in which a fully-dressed lady is
immersed, and she just sits there.
To the right of the picture, in the next
room, a young man gazes at this lady through
a hole in a wall, and this peeping-tom
pervert is indecently dressed in hose too
tight to be believed. Further to the
right in the picture are various people
coming & going, talking to each other and
probably arranging assignations.
One wonders if bath houses doubled as fetish
brothels in the middle ages! Please let me
know if you discover more about this.
<the end>