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LivHist-msg – 8/24/04


Living History groups.


NOTE: See also the files: LivHist-bib, other-groups-msg, movies-msg, SCA-intro-art, SCA-reasons-msg, SCA-The-Dream-msg, magic-moments-msg.





This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.


This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org


I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.


The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given by the individual authors.


Please  respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these messages. The  copyright status  of these messages  is  unclear at this time. If  information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give credit to the originator(s).


Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org



From: CONS.ELF at aida.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg")

Date: 18 Apr 91 16:53:13 GMT

Organization: The Internet


I give you a list of "living history" groups in Britain. This is

part one (of four).


(D) = Dark Age

(M) = Middle Ages

(preD) = Roman

(E) = English Civil War

(NAP) = Napoleonic


(A) = Archery, mostly medieval

(F) = Federation of Dark Age Societies (association)

(H) = White Company Households (association)

(N) = Norse Film & Pageant Society (association)

(R) = Regia Anglorum (association)


* AD 500 (D)

Chris Halewood, 52 Harley Terrace, Gosforth, Tyne & Wear. NE3 1UL


* Avalon (DF)

Neil Trantor, 28 Clive Road, Normanby, Middlesbrough, Cleveland TS6 0RT


* Bangor and North Wales Vikings (DN)

Russel Scott, 72 Newlands Park Valley, Hollyhead, Angelsey, Gwynedd,

North Wales H65 3AS


* Blood Eagles (DF)

S.T. Hallet, 3 Malven Road, Alkrington, Middleton, Manchester, M24 1QA


* Britannia (D)

Ken Bamford, 32 Gloucester Road, Sawtry, Cambridge PE17 5NB


* The British Jousting Association (M)

Max Diamond, Chilham Castle, Chilham, Nr. Canterbury, Kent


* British Plate Armour Society (M)

Dave Barnes, 7 Empool Close, Crossways, Dorchester DT2 8BX


* Brotherhood of the Axe (DF)

Brin Dunsire, 29 Derborough House, Amersham Hill, High Wycombe,

Bucks. HP13 6WW


* Canterbury Sveiter (DN)

Jane Collar, 52 Hackington Road, Tyler Hill, Canterbury, Kent CT2 9NQ


* The Celts of Dagda Mor (DFR)

Andy Bird, Work Unit 1, Oak Street, Ellesmere Port, South Wirral L65 6RY


* The Clan (DM)

Wallace, 160 Albert Drive, Pollockshields, Glasgow, Scotland


* Colcester Historical Enactment Society (DF)

Paul Adams, 31 St. Peter Street, Colchester, Essex CO1 1ES


* The Companions of the Black Bear (M)

Rachel Mason, 1 Perry Hill, Tewkesbury, Glos. GL20 5JG


* The Company of the Finsbury Mark (A)

John Holder, 62 Morris Avenue, Walsall WS2 0ED


* The Company of the Hawk (M)

A. Jarvis, 355 Langsett Road, Hillbrough, Sheffield S6 2UP


* The Crimdon Sword and Shield (D)

Ian Sanderson, 20 Swanage Grove, Hart Station, Hartlepool TS24 9RR


* Croix-du-Nord (DR)

Ted Jones, 22 Wellington Road, Lancaster LA1 4DN


* Dagenham Animals (D)

Rob Seaton, 169 Ilchester Road, Dagenham, Essex RM8 2YX


* The Dark Age Society (DF)

Rosalind Day, 20 High Wood Close, Newbury, Berks.


* Dawn Fire Folk Dark Age (DF)

Nigel Kirby, 8 The Close, Corton, Lowestoft, Suffolk NR32 5JA


* Deorby (R.A.) (DRF)

Elizabeth Williams, 59 Wingfield Drive, Chaddesen, Derby


* Dragon's Eye (D)

Keith Pickett, 4 Rosedale Grove, Redcar, Cleveland


* Drayton Basset Medieval Society (M)

129 Sutton Road, Mile Oak, Nr. Tamworth, Staffordshire B78 3PE


* East Anglian Dark Age Society (DF)

John Gibson, , 27 Greenacre Close, Brundall, Norwich NR13 5QF


* English Companions (Anglo-Saxons) (DF)

Janet Goldsborough-Jones, 38 Cranworth Road, Worthing, Sussex BN11 2JF




From: CONS.ELF at aida.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg")

Date: 20 Apr 91 18:19:12 GMT

Organization: The Internet


I give you a list of "living history" groups in Britain. This is

part two (of four).


(D) = Dark Age

(M) = Middle Ages

(preD) = Roman

(E) = English Civil War


(NAP) = Napoleonic

(A) = Archery, mostly medieval

(F) = Federation of Dark Age Societies (association)

(H) = White Company Households (association)

(N) = Norse Film & Pageant Society (association)

(R) = Regia Anglorum (association)


* Ermine Street Guard (PreD)

Chris Haines, Oakland Farm, Dog Lane, Witcombe, Glouchestershire


* Escafeld Medieval Society (M)

Irene Deakin Dale Dyke House Bradfield Dale Nr Sheffield S6 6LE

  [updated 9/14/03 – Stefan]


* The Falcons Display Team (M)

Wayne de Strete, 110 Trafalgar Road, Portslade, East Sussex BN4 1GS


* Far Isles Mediaeval Society (D)

Fiona Whitehouse, 10 Hawksworth Close, Grove, Wantage, Oxford


* Federation of Dark Age Societies (FD)

Paul Scruton, 69 Intwood Road, Cringleford, Norwich NR4 6AA


* The Free Company (M)

Malcolm Rodes, 25 Traffic Terrace, Burrow Hill, Chesterfield


* Gall Gael (DM)

Dennis O'Riordan, 72 Park Gate, Park Main, Erskine, Renfew


* Genesta (M)

Sue Harrison, 12 Ascott Road, Aylesbury, Bucks. HP20 1HX


* Golden Eagle Bowmen (A,M)

Roger Summers, 36-38 Diamond House, Hatton Garden, London EC1N 8AN


* Golden Lions of England (M)

Chris Yuen, Wincott, Kings Street, Sancton, York YO4 3QP


* Gosport Living History Society (E)

Roger Nicholas, 37 Western Way, Alverstoke, Gosport, Hampshire PO12 2NF


* Grantanbrycg (DRF)

Thomas Barker, 23 Hillway, Linton, Cambs. CB1 6JE


* The Grey Goose Wing (A,M)

Craig Townend, 59 Netley Street, Farnborough, Hampshire GU14 6AT


* Grimwood (DF)

Paul Blackall, 21 Cromwell Road, Shaw, Newbury, Berks.


* Hamptun (DR)

David Newhouse, 1 Berkley Road, Bedford Place, Southampton


* Harlech Medieval Society (M)

G. Williams, 3 Cilfor, Talsaman, Gwynedd LL46 2YA


* English Heritage (all history)

Howard Giles, Manager of Special Events Unit, 15/17 Great

Marlborough Street, London W1U 1AF


* Welch Heritage (all history)

Keith Allen, Cadw Area Events Organiser, Brunel House, 2 Fitzalan

Road, Cardiff CF2 1UY


* Hoards of Albion (D,M)

Lee & Anthony Gilbert, Dark Wood, West Slaithwaite, Huddersfield HD7 5XA


* Holderness (DR)

Andrew Wiles, 109 Tweendikes Road, Sutton on Hull HU7 4XJ


* Hy-Breasil (D)

Mike Edwards, 19 Chance Street, Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire


* Jomsvikings (DF)

Mark Harrison, 11a Waddicor Avenue, Aston-under-Lyne, Lancashire


* Jorvikingr (D)

Peter Gardner, Jorvik Centre, Coppergate, York


* The Kingmakers (M)

Henry of Grosmont, 7Chapmans Crescent, Chesham, Bucks. HP5 2QU


* The Knights of Clifford (M)

A. Westmancoate, 104 Clark Road, Wolverhampton WV3 9PB



From: CONS.ELF at aida.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg")

Date: 21 Apr 91 21:13:10 GMT

Organization: The Internet


I give you a list of "living history" groups in Britain. This is

part three.


(D) = Dark Age

(M) = Middle Ages

(preD) = Roman

(E) = English Civil War

(NAP) = Napoleonic


(A) = Archery, mostly medieval

(F) = Federation of Dark Age Societies (association)

(H) = White Company Households (association)

(N) = Norse Film & Pageant Society (association)

(R) = Regia Anglorum (association)


* The Knights of the Crusades (M)

N. Wright, 5 Vernon Road, Feltham, Middlesex TW13 4LL


* The Knights of Outremer (M)

Julie Clark, 5 Woodland Road, Forest Town, Mansfield, Notts.


* Knights of the Falchion (M)

Mrs. Carole Schubert, 3 Ings Road, Redcar, Cleveland


* The Knights of the Rose (M)

Joe Joyce, 6 Simons Walk, Northampton


* Knights of the White Boar (M)

Manny Norman, 5 Dillestone Court, Crunchcroft, Sturmer, Suffolk CB9 7YX


* The Knights Templar (M)

Jonathan Easby, 50 Coppice Road, Marton Grove, Middlesborough, Cleveland


* The Legion of the Riverbank (M)

Lester E. Simons, 11 Regal Way, Harrow, Middlesex HA3 0RZ


* Lewes Reavers (D)

Kath Bradfield, 16 Brendon Close, Langley, Eastbourne, East Sussex


* Lincoln Castle Longbowmen (A)

Jack Whitehouse, Draycott, 5 Swynford Close, Laughterton, Lincoln LN1 2LG


* The Lion Rampant (M)

Madge Mansfield, 35 Barnhill GardensMarlow, Bucks. SL7 3HB


* Londonburgh (DR)

Cat, 22 Terront Road, Tottenham, London N15 3AA


* Longbow Presentations (AM)

Veronica Soar, 65 Chiltern Close, North Common, Warmley, Bristol BS15 5UL


* Lord Hastings Retinue (M)

Neil Elverson, 211 Duncan Road, Aylestone, Leicester. LE2 8EJ


* Marcher Knights (M)

Roy & Anna Colder, 490 Brin Road, Aston, Macklefield, Wigan,

Lincolnshire WN4 8AN


* Medieval Combat Society (M)

Dave Barnes, 218 Belgrave Walk, Mitcham CR4 3QE


* Mercenaries (D)

M. Terry, Kate Daniels House, Hill Top Crescent, Weeley Nr.

Clacton, Essex CO16 9HE


* Mercenaries of Lower England (D)

Martin Guy, 67a Brookhill Road, East Barnet, Herts. EN4 8SF


* Mercia Sveiter (DNF)

Paul Craddock, 53 Booths Lane, Great Barr, Birmingham B42 2RG


* Napoleonic Association (NAP)

Phillip Coates-Wright, 169 Southfield Road, Chiswick, London W4 1TY


* Norse Film & Pageant Society (DN)

Geoff Carter, 7 Thursby Avenue, South Shore, Blackpool, Lancashire


* Norsemen of Kent (DF)

Steve the Fair, Haward's Lodge, Herne Common, Herne Bay, Kent CT6 5AQ


* Northland Mercenaries (D)

Jon Allen, 33 Stanley Gardens, Herne Bay, Kent CT6 5SQ


* Northumbrians (DF)

Allan Beneke, 2 Oswald Terrace, easington Colliery, Peterlea, Durham SR8 3CB


* Norvik Lith (DFR)

K. Benson, 45 Darrell Place, Norwich, Norfolk NR5 8QW


* Norwich and Norfolk Medieval Assoc. (M)

Pat Coleman, 9 Mons Avenue, Norwich




From: CONS.ELF at aida.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg")

Date: 23 Apr 91 19:03:55 GMT

Organization: The Internet

Message-ID: <910423150355.8.CONS.ELF at AIDA.CSD.UU.SE>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca


I give you a list of "living history" groups in Britain. This is

part four (and last).


(D) = Dark Age

(M) = Middle Ages

(preD) = Roman

(E) = English Civil War

(NAP) = Napoleonic


(A) = Archery, mostly medieval

(F) = Federation of Dark Age Societies (association)

(H) = White Company Households (association)

(N) = Norse Film & Pageant Society (association)

(R) = Regia Anglorum (association)


* Norwich Sveiter (DN)

Mr.S.Andrews, 4 Rachel Close, West Earlham, Norwich NR5 8JF


* Odinguard (D)

Roy King, 64 Middlemoor Road, Frimley, Camberleys, Surrey


* Odin's Choosen (D)

Tom Dawson, 77 Palmerston Road, Walthamstow, Essex


* The Order of the Black Prince (M)

Alan Haselup, Kennel House, 150 Capel Street, Capel-le-Fern,

Folkestone, Kent


* The Pageant Masters (M)

Geoff Markmaick, 7 Hillyfield, Lewes, East Sussex BN7 1LA


* Peterborough Medieval Jousting Society (M)

Norman Offield, 14 Mina Close, Stanground, Peterborough PE2 8TG


* The Ravens (D)

Steve Brame, 130 Costead Manor Road, Brentwood, Essex CM14 4XZ


* Regia Anglorum (DRF)

K. Siddorn, 9 Durleigh Close, Headley Park, Bristol BS13 7NQ


* Richard III Society (M)

A. Hayek, 20 Rowington Road, Norwich NR1 3RR


* Royal Household (MH)

Roger Sterling Brown, Gravel Hill, Stretford Bridge, Leominister,

Hereford HR6 9DQ


* Ruadin Reivers (D)

Sarah Mawson, 21 London Road, Buxton SK17 9NZ


* The Saxon Village (D)

P.J. Butler, Delbush, Whatlington Road, Battle, E. Sussex TN32 0JN


* Schwert-Bruder (M)

C. Fallows, 30 Marlbrough Close, Clatton-on-Sea, Essex


* Sea Dragons (D)

Jim Turner, 10 Beachy Avenue, Eastbourne, Sussex BN20 8NR


* The Sea Wolves (D)

Stan Kitchener, 65 Lockesley Drive, Orpington, Kent


* Society of Friends of King Richard III (M)

Mrs. Dorothy Mitchell, Silver Boar, 121 Windsor Drive, Wiggington, York


* South Coast Unaffiliated Mercenary Battle Action Group (DMF)

Sapper, 10 Gloucester Street, Brighton, Sussex


* Supweald (DF)

S. Champion, 292 Turkey Road, Bexhill-on-Sea, East Sussex


* Sword of the South (D)

Tony Cornish, 20 Green Street, Eastbourne, East Sussex


* Thor's Bund (DF)

Jim Torrance, 4 Ashford Road, Withington, Manchester M20


* Tooting Barbarians (D)

Ralph Jenner, 59 Noyna Road, Tooting Bec, London SW17 7PQ


* Train of Artillery  (E)

Roger Emmerson, 21 Oak Road, Woolston, Southampton SO2 9BQ


* The Trybe (DF)

David Cartmell, 1 Kimberley Street, Wymondham, Norwich


* Tutbury Castle Medieval Society (M)

Russel Adams, 10 Cleascen Street, Burton-on-Trent DE14 3LG


* Valhalla (DN)

Mike Haywood, Flat 4, Tall Chimneys, Betchton, Sandbach CW11 0TB


* The Viking Warriors (D)

Flat 1, 73 Larges Street, Derby


* Virconium Militia (D)

A. Westmancoate, 104 Clark Road, Wolverhampton WV3 9PB


* Volund's Sveiter (DF)

Rick Lewis, 120 Piperscourt, Old Foundry Road, Ipswitch, Suffolk IP4 2DX


* The Warriors of Deira (DF)

Art Quester, 50 Ullswater Road, Lancaster


* Warriors of Idha Plain (D)

Andy Wills, Flat 9, 242 Royal College Street, Camden Town, London NW1


* Warriors of the Sussex Table (DF)

Allan Strong, 64 Totland Road, Brighton, Sussex


* The Wessex Dark Ages Society (D)

Stacie Lavis, 26 Eddison Avenue, Fordington, Dorchester, Dorset.  Tel 01305 266315  

Her computer is a little "unpredictable" at times, so anyone wanting information by email can contact silverbirch1a at yahoo.co.uk (that's me) and I will pass their details on to her.


Lesley Haskell

[updated - 8/24/04. - Stefan]


* Westbury-on-Trym Saxon Society (D)

Mr. R.P.Glover, 45 Lakewood Crescent, Henleaze, Bristol BS10 5HL


* Westworld (M)

John Pacey, 48 Athelstone Road, Harrow, Middlesex


* White Company (MH)

Jane Malcolm-Davies, 12 Kersley Street, Battersea, London SW11  


* Wolfguard  (DF)

Malcolm Grandis, 7 Manor Crescent, Newport, Isle of Wight


* Wolfsbane (DMF)

14 Keep Hill Drive, High Wycombe, Bucks.


* Wychwood Warriors (DF)

Tracey Flint, 16 Bateman Street, Headington, Oxon. OX3 7BT


* Y Ddraig (D)

Fon, Thorn Tree Cottage, Leys Lane, Baddeley Edge, Stoke-on-Trent, Staffordshire ST2 7LZ


* Y Rhyfelwrwyr O'R Ddraig Rhudd (DF)

John Renehan, 51 Kestrel Road, Morton, Wirral, Chester L46 6BN




From: vader at emil.csd.uu.se (ke Eldberg)

Date: 2 Nov 91 23:07:11 GMT

Organization: The Internet


William de Corbie greets the people of the Net!


I remember seeing some non-SCA royalty (Acre? Markland?) at Pennsic,

and hearing various comments about how they should be treated. Opinions

ranged from "They're just a bunch of jerks who couldn't hack it in the

SCA, so they formed their own group -- mostly so they could give

themselves all the titles they wanted", to "They are nice people,

very authentic, very courteous, an interesting group..."


The SCA is "the known world". We do not claim to be the whole world,

and I have no problem with royalty from "unknown" parts of the world.

Their titles should be honored according to what we know about their

meaning. If we call someone "His majesty of the Kingdom of Acre", or

"Sir Beowulf Burger of/from the Kingdom of Acre", we are not giving

them SCA rank, while maintaining diplomatic courtesies. They are

simply foreigners from a little-known part of the world.


Some people at Pennsic seemed to think that we should not recognize

the non-SCA titles at all, and that the foreign royalty should not

have been received in court. I think we are so big that we can

afford to be generous to other groups with similar interests.

It's a test of our courtesy that we are able to admit that there *are*

other medieval groups who have the same right to exist as we do, and

with whom we might enjoy a fruitful exchange of knowledge. I see no

point in being annoyed at them for not joining our particular version

of the Middle Ages -- and that's the only real reason I can see for

wanting to refuse and ignore them.


Wether it's in good taste to march in at an SCA event and claim royal

rank, without having been invited as such by the SCA royalty, is a

different matter. I think it's presumptous and bad manners. (I'm

not sure wether this was really what happened at Pennsic.)


Of course, recognition of titles only applies when these people are

with us explicitly as foreign visitors, e.g. an embassy that comes to

a particular event. If they are also active on a regular basis in the

SCA, then I don't think that their ranks & titles should have any

weight here. If someone went around at an SCA event presenting himself

as "Prince so-and-so" of this or that other group, I would probably ask

him wether he had been invited by the ruling SCA monarchs, or if he was

an official ambassador from his group -- and if not, I would ask him to

stop using his foreign title.





From: whheydt at pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)

Date: 1 Nov 91 22:56:46 GMT

Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA


With respect to the recent thread on how to treat visitors wh have

titles matching SCA titles, but from other organizations (including

countries . . .) . . .


I suggest that proper treatment is to treat such people as if their

titles were awarded in the SCA--so long as they are visitors to our

events.  If they wish to become part of the SCA, then they would leave

behind such titles as they had from elsewhere and earn titles the same

way that every member of the SCA does.


That is to say--if Elizabeth, Queen of England visits the Kingdom of

the West, she should be accorded Sovreign Honors and be treated with

all the pomp, deference, and honor that the title brings, plus that

due to a visiting monarch.  Should Elizabeth "Windsor" join an SCA

branch in her native land, she would be assumed to be an untitled

person of gentle birth--as are all in the Society--and if she wished

to become a Sovereign Queen, she would have to take up arms and fight

for that honor herself (if she were willing to 'settle' for Consort,

she'd have to find someone to fight for her.  I wonder how good

Phillip is with a stick . . . ?).




        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom

        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706, 415/524-8321 (home)



From: sharons at juliet.ll.mit.EDU (Sharon Stanfill)

Date: 6 Nov 91 16:12:54 GMT

Organization: The Internet


Markland (aka: Markland Medieval Mercenary Militia)

I will preface this by saying that I have been completely out of touch with

Markland for a small number of years. My description is based on my own

participation in that group in the mid-1980's at the University of Maryland.


Markland is a relatively small group, with rather looser standards than the

SCA. There are few ranks and titles, and for a time, titles could be purchased.

(It was a way of funding...) Feasting and recreation of well-known battles

were the main activities. There were two forms of fighting: recreation and

"real". Recreation fighting was basically stage fighting. One had to be

certified to take part. Real fighting was somewhat akin to SCA forms of

fighting and included: heavy,light and archery rules.

Meriadoc of Hart's Glade

Barony of Carolingia

East Kingdom



From: justin at inmet.camb.inmet.COM (Justin du Coeur MKA Mark Waks)

Date: 7 Nov 91 22:58:08 GMT

Organization: The Internet


Re: SCA Splinter Groups or Not


Fiacha writes:

>Also remember that the Marklanders, whom we recognize, broke away from the

>SCA many years ago (if I got my East Kingdom history right). I don't recall

>ever having heard them called traitors.


Several people have tentatively corrected him on this, but I'll do so

a little more definitely.


Markland is *not* an SCA splinter organization; it evolved in parallel,

more or less simultaneously with the Society. I've heard it claimed that

Markland is actually older than the Society; while I'm not sure that that's

true (I haven't seen any records about Markland going earlier than about

1969), it is almost certainly older than the Kingdom of the East.


(For general information, the group is centered in Maryland, and was

(according to my sources) originally the Maryland Medieval Mercenary

Militia. It appears to have changed one letter to get the present name

for unclear reasons early on...)


Fiacha is probably thinking of the MSR, AKA the Kingdom of Acre. This

group, centered in New York, was created from a schism with the East

about eleven years ago, due to some cultural differences catalyzed

by an unfortunate incident. As Fiacha says, we recognize Acre these

days, and have for some years. Each year, a treaty is signed between

the Kingdoms, and the Royalty of Acre are frequently treated as foreign

monarchs in the courts of the East. (Most times that I've noticed,

they are invited to sit at the side of the Monarchs of the East.)


I suspect that Acre was also the Kingdom of the unnamed Queen, who

was the subject of the start of the "How should we treat non-SCA

dignitaries?" thread. In this case, the answer is simple: if the

King and Queen of the East think that they're Royal, *I'm* certainly

not going to naysay them...


Women in the SCA

1 Jun 92

From: aryk at gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (a.j.s. nusbacher)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House


I spent a lot of time this past weekend thinking about women and

historical re-creation, and I thought I'd post some of the ideas

that came to mind.


There are (for my purposes here) three kinds of participation for

women in living history:


1.     Women members of the club are not permitted to engage in

any activity which would be inappropriate for a woman in the time

and place being re-created or re-enacted.  This ususally translates

to women belonging to a ladies auxiliary group called the "camp

followers" which specialises in cleaning up cartridge papers, sewing

uniforms, and cooking.  In some groups the level of authenticity

amongst the camp-followers is much lower than the regiment it acc-

ompanies.  In some groups, unmarried women are actively discouraged

from joining the camp-followers.


2.     Women members of the club are permitted to portray men.

Just as a German-Canadian can portray an English soldier, a woman

can portray a man (though frequently less convincingly). Those who

were at Pennsic War last year might have seen the Borough of South-

wark Trayned Bandes drilling with some "boys" who caught the other

lads' eyes a bit more than most chaps....   Other women portray women

and limit their activities to those appropriate for women in that

period and that place.


3.     Female personae have no barriers to any participation.  This

applies the same idea to sex discrimination that using English as a

lingua franca applies to language barriers--participation is more im-

portant than this point of history.


Rather a long preamble, but the point is quickly expressed:


The strictures on women and women's history are obvious for the first

two types of re-creation.


The SCA, as the only practitioner of type-3 re-enactment for women,

neglects women's history by making the dominant forms of women's par-

ticipation in the club either re-creations of men's activities done

by women; or activities based on male domination as expressed in



Example:  the most prestigous places in the SCA are reserved for people

who re-create _men's_ history by way of fighting, and for those who

participate in the literary fantasy of tournament victors' choosing

their women on the basis of fantastical criteria.


This is meant as a point of discussion, and not as a stricture on the

SCA, by the way--I am not one to toss accusations of sexism around, nor

am I a feminist in the modern academic sense.  I am applying a feminist

analysis to women's participation in the SCA.






12 Jun 92

From: tip at lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Organization: University of Arizona UNIX Users Group


RenFaires, RenFestivals, Rennies...


        There are two distinct "circuits" in the US.  


The Renaissance Pleasure Faire (TM) is owned by Phyllis and Ron Patterson,

is located in California (originally in San Mateo, then Navato and Agoura),

and is associated with the Living History Center, a non profit

organization designed to help train people for the Ren Faire and hide some

of the profits from Ren Faire.


The Ren Faire started about 26 years ago in the back yard of Phyllis Patterson,

who was at that time a high(?) school history teacher. The event included

a a few crafts for sale,  and so it developed in a differnt direction than

that other back yard event that happened at about the same time...


After a few years the Faire grew big enough that Phyllis had to find a better

site for it, and so they bought some land near Novato...   Sometime before

that the Faire split off the "Southern Faire", which was held near Agoura in

the spring.


The Northern Faire site was able to have some nice permanent structures,

including stages, a period oak framed building (which I help build), a jousting

arena, etc...   The site has since been sold off due to fiscal mismanagment,

and since I haven't been associated with the Faire for (gack) 10 years,

what I am about to say may be somewhat out of date.


The philosphy of the Renn Faire was to try to recreate a slice of life...

If they could have managed it they would have liked to have been

Colonial Williamsburg,   but the money and the managerial skills were lacking.

People were asked to adopt personas, and learn how to converse with a

proper accent (BFA - basic faire accent), to learn social history,

daily life history (what did you have for breakfast?), dancing, basic

acting techniques (blocking, improv, cheating out), etc...    To

be allowed to get onto the site for free you had to take 6(?) of these

classes.   To get paid you had to take more, and be darned good.


(For those of you who have commented on Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus'

ability to converse in 16'th C Elizabethan English - this is where I

learned...   and ended up teaching at the LHC).


Festivals -


A number of years after Phyllis started the Renn Faire, an independant bunch

of people got together and started a Rennaisance Festival...    Note

that Phyllius sues the pants off of anybody who uses the term

Rennaisance Faire...      I think the first Festival ws in Minnisota.

The people who started the Festivals were much more entrepenurially

oriented.   For example, I know that one of them has a degree in

marketing,  while another was the Special Events Manager for Ringling

Brothers B&B Circus (and went to clown college!).  The attitude I have

heard expressed by the owners of the Festivals is "King Arthur meets

Monte Python at a Craft Show".    The Festivals tend to emphasize more

special event mentality, including better run food and beverage

concessions, better organized acts, and more slap stick... What

they don't emphasize is historical accuracy, especially if it might

get int he way of the business.   This is both good and bad...


Phyllis was in Chapter 11 or in danger of Chapter 11 at least twice in

the decade I worked with her...  Every year when I asked for money

I was given a song and dance.   Consequently, while the moral and enthusiasm

of our group was high,  we never got more than a few _hundred_ to use

for props, etc...    On the other hand most of the Festivals succeed very

well or are quietly folded.  For example, the Arizona Rennaisance

Festival started with about $1 Million capitalization on a M year

payback at NN% with two subsequent recapitalization options at a higher rate

of interest.  (These numbers are fuzzy because I don't know if Jeff wants me

to broadcast them to thousands of readers)   This means that there

is money to do things right, if you can convince the owner they want to

do it...


My wife is director of the Peasant Living History Group at the Arizona Renn

Festival, and we have been slowly convincing the Owner of the festival

that authenticity can pay for itself.   Now that he has seen this,  he is

willing to put up the money to make things... and last year we

were able to get funding to build a 25' long

house out of 6"x6", 8"x8", and other heavy timbers...   (the wattle and

daub were free !!!).   We are able to buy food for the group, and have

some of our people spend all day doing period cooking demonstrations...

Then at night we eat the food!   Ummm,  Cow's tounge in Onions and Ale!

Wardens in wine sauce!  YUM!!!!


Not all owners of Festivals feel this way...  many of the festivals

do not have much in the way of authenticity.  I have been to or worked at

several of the Festivals (I'm wearing a Colorado Renaissance Fesitval

T-shirt right now!),  and Arizona is the best I have seen (for authenticity).

Scarbourgh has one of the WORST reputations (perhaps tying with King Richards World in NY (?)).  


By the by... if people really want to know,  I'll tell you why the SCA is not

welcome at most Faires and Festivals...  but this message is long enough






14 Jun 92

From: aryk at gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (a.j.s. nusbacher)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House


ddfr at midway.uchicago.edu writes:

>One of the striking things about the SCA is the enormous range of

>scholarship, authenticity, etc.--from bunny fur barbarians up to

>museum quality armor. My impression is that the other groups

>discussed attempt, with some success, to cut off the bottom tail of

>the distribution. Do they retain the top tail? Does a civil war group

>contain not only a lot of people following the authenticity rules

>fairly strictly, but also a few who are way above the required level

>in one way or another--researching varieties of sheep, and dying

>techniques, and spinning their wool on recreated mid-nineteenth

>century equipment , ... instead of buying their uniforms, or making

>them from purchased cloth sold for the purpose?


The quick answer is, yes, every group has people who push at the envelope.

The question is:  what exactly is the envelope?  A soldier in the

American Civil War who made his own uniform was probably a rarity, and

to re-create a rarity like that is not necessarily a virtue.


Re-enactment groups and living history groups have top and bottom tails,

but in different ways from each other, and in different ways from the SCA.




Among military re-enactors, having kit to a certain standard of authen-

ticity is the water that the fish swim in--everybody's uniform is made from

approximately the same cloth, and everybody's belts are made of the same

sort of leather.  This means that the authenticity of each piece is uniform,

but not necessarily high--the cloth is certain to be woven on a modern

computer-controlled loom, and the leather is certain to be chrome-tanned

white leather without pipeclay.  The variation between groups and indivi-

duals comes elsewhere:  standard of drill, speed of reloading, standard

of kit across a whole unit (wow, you guys outfitted your whole company with

the New Pattern Knapsack!).  Higher levels of achievement are available

sometimes for officers (wow, you splurged on the Prinny pattern infantry

sabre), but also for men (wow, Bill does a great gurgling scream when they're

flogging him!).  There's still a bottom end, but it's the guy who doesn't

come to drill nights enough, and who makes it hard on the rest of the



Living history


Again, a certain standard of authenticity is the starting point.  However,

since the living history participant is trying to learn and understand by

doing, certain process-oriented parts of the impression can be important.

What does that mean?  I ask you--why does an SCA person sometimes take a

fleece, card it, this it, that it, spin it, dye it (dye it, spin it), weave

it, sew it, and wear it?  Not because it is necessarily helpful to the

general impression--most people couldn't tell the difference.  No, it's

because the process has value in and of itself (the joy, one might say,

is in the doing).  The same can be the case for living history people, but

the processes might be very different.  For instance, maintaining a good

standard of drill is important to somebody who wants to understand a regular

soldier.  Knowing how to win at cards might be important to somebody who

wants to understand a tavern regular.  The top end is somebody who does

a good impression, and can interact very well indeed with others.  The

bottom end is somebody who interferes with that by wearing his American

Civil War overcoat in the morning at the breakfast fire, forcing everyone

to think "should I say something?" instead of "oh, good, there's some

leftover sausages".


In the above two sections, I have said that proper authenticity is the norm,

and that the top and bottom tails are drawn out from other issues.  Of

course neither of the above groups can achieve perfection. Even the finest

living history clubs and sites make compromises (eyeglasses are a common

compromise, as is commercial aniline-dyed fabric).  And not only compro-

mises of kit and dress--every soldier in a re-enacted regiment knows that

the other side has no ball in their muskets (and frequently not even ram-

rods), and that if his ankle is sprained, then he can have it taped up in

a modern hospital.  And that knowledge seriously undercuts the process of

getting inside the soldier's head.



From: "Mark L. Shanks" <mlshanks at ix.netcom.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,alt.fairs.renaissance

Subject: Re: Medieval Village

Date: 4 Mar 1997 04:25:02 GMT

Organization: E.L.F. Productions


> I am looking into building a medieval village, to be run along the same

> lines as Colonial Williamsburg.  It is currently in the early planning

> stages, and I would like any advice, discussion, etc. that you might

> give.  It is planned to have permanent residents and craftsmen/women.

> It will be located on a 75-100 acre plot of land, with 20 acres for the

> town proper.  As I said before, any correspondence would be appreciated.



Gee Paul,  I hope you have considered the items that Williamsburg had when

it was founded that I'm guessing you don't currently have lined up...  


1)   A super-rich family who will bankroll the project out of "pin money."


(Hint:  Starts w/ R & rhymes w/ "sock a feller.")


2)  A real village site, largely intact, tied in to the history of the

country you're doing this in....


3)  A nearly on-site college which will act in academic colaberation...


4)  A group of professional historians, anthropologists, archaeologists,

and experts in your period's material culture who will provide guidance and


Hate to rain on your parade, but The Museum of American Frontier Culture in

Staunton, VA has already spent millions on just recreating & relocating

four historic farmsteads, all of more recent vintage...   A properly

recreated midieval village such as you suggest is perhaps a 20-40 year

project, which would probably cost (in today's dollars) on the order of

$25-100 million dollars...


If you're really serious about this, you'll talk to professionals in the

living history field and get some real idea as to the scope of what you're

suggesting.  I'd start w/ such places as Plimoth Plantation (Plymoth, MA),

Conner Prarrie (Noblesville, IN),  Old Sturbridge Village, (Sturbridge,

MA), etc...  Places that are already doing the sort of thing you are

talking about, alibet in a different period.  As well, I'd get in contact

with ALHFAM (The Association of Living Historical Farms and Agricultural

Museums), which constitutes the largest contact medium in the professional

living history world.  (http://www.mystic.org/alhfam)


Hope this helps,


Mark L. Shanks

"Clio Eternum, Vita Brevis"



Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:32:46 -0700

From: "J. Kriss White" <jkrissw at earthling.net>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu (SCA-Arts mailing list),

Subject: I'm back!


My meandering in the east is done, and I'm back online. One discovery to

share, slightly post-period:  You're probably familiar with Colonial

Williamsburg.  I made a happy discovery in Maryland, of ongoing

reconstructions and living history at St. Mary's City, the first capital of

that colony.  It's on a much smaller scale than the Williamsburg operation

(and much less "commercial"), but it seems quite thoroughly researched, and

the "actors" (some paid by the state, some volunteers) stay "in persona"

very effectively.  There's even a replica of the Dove (the smaller of the

two ships that brought the original colonists, which stayed to handle

coastal shipping needs), which sails on the bay weekly. (My Navy cousin

was quite taken by it, and is seriously considering volunteering for the crew.)


Lord Daveed of Granada, mka J. Kriss White,

Barony of Calafia, Kingdom of Caid



Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 11:55:08 -0400

From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Living History, Medieval and other Webrings, Assn Sites, including SCA


As long as we are going to talk about Living History,

SCA, and other groups worldwide here are some of the

primary sites and webring addresses. These will take you

to hundreds of sites and organizations worldwide.

These are at the top of a very large listing I keep.
















































Subject: ANST - Regia Anglorum Website

Date: Sun, 01 Nov 98 12:59:48 MST

From: "Nathan W. Jones" <njones at ix.netcom.com>

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG, northern at Ansteorra.ORG


Greetings Friends!


Came across a website today that might be of some interest.



This is the website for a Living History group in Britain called the Regia

Anglorum.  Their focus is Anglo Saxon and Viking Britain from 950-1066.


It's not my period, so I'm not really able to judge the quality of their

research, but their web site says:


        "We are not purely a combat society and have come a long way from

the old

hack and bash image associated with many re-enactment societies. We are not

in fact a Ôre-enactmentÕ society, but a Ôliving history societyÕ. Our basic

tenet is Authenticity. To this end we will not portray any image, support

any ideal, or make any item of kit which we cannot provenance from

contemporary sources. The society invests large sums of money and thousands

of man hours getting it right. From our experiences with other

superficially similar societies, we are certain that no other society from

our period of interest takes this matter so seriously."


So, I suggest we take advantage of their "large sums of money and thousands

of man hours" and use the information of their web pages to our best uses.








Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 13:44:19 -0400

From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: There's a New Magazine for Reenactors.


First off, I am not affiliated in any way with this magazine.


However, this week I got a preview magazine from England that

most of you haven't seen. It's about various reenactor groups

(in Europe) and what they are up to. The time range

covers Roman to WWII and at least the first issue (current)

is very heavy on the medieval era and its reenactor groups.

The thing is full of one to three page color articles on them.


It's called Revival and is similar is size to a Tournaments

Illuminated but with slick finish and photographs.


The one dopey thing I noticed about it is that it lacks websites

for most of the groups and merchants, even though I know that

a lot of those groups and merchants have them. Apparently

they haven't realized that this thing will have an international

market. It does however list a number of email addresses in

relation to some of them. A lot of the addresses seem to ignore

the electronic age, and it seems like a magazine of ten years

ago because of it.


It's a quarterly, and for the subscription price of twelve pounds

it's not bad at all. Twelve pounds is roughly 12 X $1.68 US.

Which is about $20.16, or about $5 per magazine, which is cheap

for imports. Most of the British magazines I get are about 50%

more per issue.


Having gotten Living History, Rennaisance Times, etc. I

have something to compare it to and it's not bad at all.

I think the only two I haven't gotten are Viking Times (which

doesn't answer email) and Medieval Life. It's very cheap compared

to Military History Illustrated (at least quadruple the price).

It's an interesting read, especially considering we get to compare

our progress to those of other groups.


The open issue covers Brittania - The Arthurian Society, and it's

participation in a Dark Age Major Movie being filmed now called

Gladiator starring Oliver Reed, Derek Jacobi, Richard Harris

and David Hemmings by the same guy who did the Duellists and

Bladerunner. It's set in 180 AD and concerns Marcus Aurelius and

his campaigns on the Rhine and Danube.


Other relevant groups covered are The Vikings - Norse Film and

Pageant Society, Crucesignati - Knights of Jerusalem, North Devon

Jousting Association, Chapter of St. Bartholomew, The Troop of Shew,

New France and Old England, 42nd Highlanders, Historical Maritime

Society, the English American Civil War Society, 17th Lancers Display

Team, The DieHard Company, and some WWII groups.


One particularly nice article covered Bjarni's Boots, the leatherworkers

shop affiliated with the Royal Armouries at Leeds and shows early

pierced poulaines on lasts and some Tudor period Bear Paw Shoes in

closeups, as well as a 15th century war saddle, boots, and costrel.

Bjarni and his group make shoes and other leather items of all sorts

for museums, and reenactment groups. A sleeveless buffcoat is also



In the back of the magazine is the usual plethora of ads for various

reenactment groups and merchants.


This can be easily had through MelanieWilson at compuserve.com

who is set up for both Visa and Mastercard over the web.

or Melanie Wilson, Ten Steps, Church Street, Seagrave, LE12 7LT, UK

+44 1509 812806. I've done a bit of booktrading and business with

Melanie and have found her quite reliable. She also does reenactor

booksearches and is a member of Circa 1265 and an Anglo-Saxon group.

She doesn't own the magazine, but is helping promote it. Mundanely

she is a dye specialist also and she participates on various SCA

forums like SCA Arts and Medieval Leather.


Master Magnus Malleus, OL,  Atlantia, Great Dark Horde.


<the end>

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