textiles-msg - 2/10/00
Medieval cloth. Silks, wool, cotton, linen.
NOTE: See also the files: looms-msg, silk-msg, cotton-msg, linen-msg, velvet-msg, piled-fabrics-msg, hemp-cloth-msg, fabric-SCA-msg.
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Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: Jamie Elfsdottir
To: Matthew Newman
Date: 31-Dec-89 05:47pm
Subject: Fabrics...
I'm CERTAINLY no expert on this but I can throw in my two cents worth. Cotton
was known back to the time of the Egyptians. But for a Romanicized Celt, it
probably would not have been worn. It would be VERY rare much beyond the
immediate Mediteranian until well in the 1400's. LINEN, on the other hand,
which is produced from the FLAX plant, *would* be known to just about all
cultures. However, again, it would be relatively rare. Silk, saving in the
Eastern Mediterranian cultures or any culture having commerce with the Persian
Empire, would be almost unheard of until the 1200's to 1300's when the
returning Crusaders would start introducing it to Europe. The BULK of fabrics
worn by the Celts in this time would be wool, furs, leather and *some*
undergarments made of linen (especially in the upper class).
As for boots, what we know call a boot is a relatively recent accomplishment.
For one, it requires the use of a lathe and tinker's dam to make the foot.
Second, joining the soul to upper would be beyond most Medieval footwear
makers. At *best* you might find a sort of Amerind form of a knee-high soft
moccasin. You might want to check on the types of boots worn by the Couriers
des Bois of New France (also sometimes called Plainsmen's Boots) for an
example of what I'm talking about. Most people either wore no shoes, wooden
shoes (especially in wet areas), sandles or low booties with cross-gartering.
I hope this helps at all.
I remain, as always
Yr. Servant,
Canair James St. Aubyn
From: karplus at ararat.ucsc.edu (Kevin Karplus)
Date: 11 Nov 90 22:35:25 GMT
I have been reading some textile histories recently---there is really
a surprising amount known about medieval fabrics, despite the
relatively small number that have survived.
Here are some of the tidbits I picked up (sorry no sources---you'll have
to do your own reading!).
When machine spun thread was first introduced, it was used only for
weft, not warp, because it wasn't strong enough. It took years before
machine spun yarn was as strong as hand spun. I believe that handspun
is now generally of significantly lower quality than machine spun,
mainly because yarn is too cheap to justify the immense amount of
skilled labor needed to produce high-quality handspun.
The finest medieval fabrics were generally silks (as the finest modern
fabrics are) but linen and wool were quite common for less sumptious
garments. Many Islamic sects prohibited the wearing of silk for men,
and so some very fine cotton and linen was also woven.
Reeled silk hasn't changed much over the last 400 years, and the
finest work done today is no finer than the finest work done then.
Silk may be somewhat cheaper today, and simple pattern weaves may be
available, but the patterned silk velvets and brocades aren't much in
demand these days, and so are essentially unavailable.
Linen varies a lot in fineness, partly because of different harvesting
and retting practices. The finest linen now available may not match
the finest available in the past, because the economics of linen
production require maximizing the yield, a very different goal than
obtaining the finest fibers.
The best of the medieval cloth was very good indeed, but so is the
best of the modern cloth, but don't expect to find either at a
discount yardage store.
The bulk of medieval weaving was for commercial purposes---sturdy pack
cloth, woolen garments, ... . This material has for the most part not
been preserved or recorded. Modern utilitarian cloth is probably as
good or better for the purposes intended, and is definitely much
cheaper. True duplications of medieval utilitarian cloth is rare, as
linen and wool are now luxury fibers, rather than everyday ones.
(Incidentally, the finest stuff I've woven in 72/2 linen lace at about
36 ends per inch---that is fine by modern handweaving standards, but
still rather coarse by commercial or medieval weaving standards.)
Knud Kaukinen Kevin Karplus
inactive in the West teaching at UCSC
From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Date: 12 Nov 90 21:35:05 GMT
Organization: DECwest, Digital Equipment Corp., Bellevue WA
In article <8802 at darkstar.ucsc.edu>, karplus at ararat.ucsc.edu (Kevin Karplus)
writes:
> I have been rNeHing some textile histories recently---there is really
> a surprising amount known about medieval fabrics, despite the
> relatively small number that have survived.
Me too.
>
> Here are some of the tidbits I picked up (sorry no sources---you'll have
> to do your own reading!).
Me too.
>
> The finest medieval fabrics were generally silks (as the finest modern
> fabrics are) but linen and wool were quite common for less sumptious
> garments.
The chinese were, in period, weaving silk at 400 to 600 threads per inch. Silk
has the advantage of not needing to be spun so much as the other available
fibers.
> Linen varies a lot in fineness, partly because of different harvesting
> and retting practices.
Linen is also a hairier yarn than silk which makes it more difficult to
open the shed to pass the shuttle through. The hairiness tends to abrade the
adjacent fibers. When the threads are fine, they are also weaker but have to
take more abrasion because the shed has to be opened so many more times for
every inch of fabric.
>
> (Incidentally, the finest stuff I've woven in 72/2 linen lace at about
> 36 ends per inch---that is fine by modern handweaving standards, but
> still rather coarse by commercial or medieval weaving standards.)
My reference claimes that the period definition of fine cloth was that it had
more than 2000 warp threads and was evenweave, i.e. the same number of treads
per inch for both warp and weft. This doesn't help much if you don't know the
width of the cloth. A few pages later, I found the remark the one of the
English kings tried to legislate a change from five quarters of a yard to
six quarters of a yard. If we assume that the 2000 threads applies to
5/4 yds we get 2000threads/ 45inchs or 44 trheads to the inch.
Fiacha
Aquaterra, AnTir
From: kay at hjuxa (35G-KAY)
Date: 13 Nov 90 16:48:29 GMT
Organization: DEC
> width of the cloth. A few pages later, I found the remark the one of the
> English kings tried to legislate a change from five quarters of a yard to
> six quarters of a yard. If we assume that the 2000 threads applies to
> 5/4 yds we get 2000threads/ 45inchs or 44 trheads to the inch.
>
To further muddy the waters, there is the question of which type of "yard"
the knight was referring to. Something I ran accross in reading about the
100 Years War was the reference to arrows. A thesis I read in the Mich.
State library speculated that the "cloth yard shaft" of the English longbow
was a _Flemish_ yard, or ell, not an English yard. This makes the arrows
long for those folks, but average today; an ell is 28 inches. (Can
someone check this against the findings on the "MARY ROSE"?)
According to my calculator, if 2000 is a good figure for the 5/4 yard,
this brings the thread count up to 57 and a bit threads per inch
(2000/28*5/4) at 5/4 yards and 47+ at 6/4. Yow!
> Fiacha
-
Bart the Bewildered, Carillion, East
(mka Paul Kay, Freehold, NJ, USA)
(kay at unx.dec.com, kay%bart at unx.dec.com, bewildrd%bart at unx.dec.com)
From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Date: 14 Nov 90 20:31:49 GMT
Organization: DECwest, Digital Equipment Corp., Bellevue WA
I have finally brought my reference to work and I am now quoting from
'The Book of Looms' by Eric Broudy.
One historian has written that the best of Flemish clothmakers utilized
over seventy different specialists. Another has put the number at
twenty-six...
.
.
.
A Suffolk clothier who in 1618 made twenty broadcloths a week would employ in various ways five hundred persons.
.
.
.
All first-class cloth had the same quality weft and warp and a set number
of warp threads that guaranteed the closeness of the texture. In Provins,
for example, the number was 2200. Cloth with only 2000 (vingtaines) was
considered cheap.
.
.
.
One dispute from 1406 concerns a decree of Henry IV who ordered that the
width of cloth be increased from five-quarters of a yard to six-quarters.
.
.
.
Wheel spun yarn was prohibited in Abbeville in 1288. In 1290 a Drapers Guild
regulation at Speyer prohibited the use of wheel spun yarn for the warp but
allowed it for the weft. The medieval wheel was more like a mounted spindle
than a spinning wheel. It had no flyer until the late fourteenth century and
was turned by a hand crank until the development of the crank and connecting
rod in the early sixteenth century. Guild members felt that a finer
stronger thread could be spun by the drop spindle, and this simple tool
remained the preferred method until the fifteenth century.
Back to me confusing things. The book includes a number of interesting
pictures and illustrations. Most of them show a two treadle, two harness
loom. These date from 1368 to 1641. One shows a two man, four harness
counterbalance loom (from the back so you can't see the treadles. This
is apparently taken from the Ypres Book of Trades c 1310 but the illustration
was taken from a book dated 1847.
The book has an extensive bibliography but does not give references for
any of the quotes above.
Given Bart's comment about the clothyard during the hundred years war and the
fact the Henry VIII defined the english yard at its current value. I tend to
believe that the 2000 or 2200 threads are squished into 35 inches ( 5/4 of
28"). I would appreciate any further data on this point.
Fiacha
Aquaterra, AnTir
From: DRS at UNCVX1.BITNET ("Dennis R. Sherman")
Date: 3 Dec 91 03:32:00 GMT
Organization: The Internet
For further information on period construction techniques, see
if you can find (probably via interlibrary loan from a school with
a textiles specialty)
Flury-Lemberg, Mechthild; _Textile Conservation and Research, a
documentation of the textile department on the occasion of the
twentieth anniversary of the Abegg Foundation_; Bern: Abegg-Stiftung,
1988.
Its filled with pictures and drawings showing original articles and
the steps taken to preserve them - which often means taking them
apart to clean (giving good pattern examples - some are even
drafted to [metric] scale). Lots of discussion of materials used.
Articles include tapestries, flags, embroidery, garments (including
knit gloves of the 15th century, if memory serves, and shoes with
cork soles) a full Landesknecht uniform - the color pictures are
glorious - 16th century shirts, and all kinds of neat stuff.
This is a fun book, especially if you are interested in clothing
construction.
Robyyan Torr d'Elandris Dennis R. Sherman
Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill Chapel Hill, NC
Atlantia drs at uncvx1.bitnet
drs at uncvx1.oit.unc.edu
Subj: fleeces
Date: 6 Feb 92
From: ron at mlfarm.com (Ronald Florence)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: Maple Lawn Farm, Stonington, CT
Our flock of Cotswold and colored sheep was recently sheared, and we
still have a few excellent fleeces available for sale to handspinners.
We will be offering these fleeces to our semi-commercial buyers soon
(they run spinning schools).
The Cotswold fleeces are extremely long-staple and lustrous, ranging
in color from bright white to ivory. To keep the fleeces clean, the
sheep are raised on pasture, fed no alfalfa hay before shearing, and
are sheared by Kevin Ford, using blades. The fleeces are skirted and
free of belly wool, hay, and second cuts.
sheep weight breed comments
George 17.0 Cotswold very white, long
Jeffery 12.0 Cotswold very white, medium-staple
Moses 11.5 Cotswold medium-long lamb fleece SOLD
Amy 11.5 Cotswold long, very lustrous
Sydney 11.0 Cotswold long
Dumpling 10.0 Romney X grey/brown, medium SOLD
Amew 14.0 Cotswold long, very lustrous
Pearl 12.0 Cotswold X coffee-colored, long
Ramona 8.5 Cotswold medium
Maggie 13.5 Cotswold X cafe-au-lait, long SOLD
Grace 13.5 Romney long, heavy crimp
Mary 11.0 Romney X silver/charcoal, coarse
Annie 14.0 Cotswold X pale silver, long SOLD
Oreo 7.5 Columbia X cafe-au-lait, fine SOLD
Brennan 17.0 Cotswold long, very lustrous
Quimby 7.5 Cotswold medium
Remy 10.0 Cotswold medium, very white
Change 9.0 Cotswold medium, very white lamb fleece
Continuity 12.0 Cotswold long lamb fleece SOLD
Serenity 5.0 Cotswold medium-short, white lamb fleece
We charge $4 per pound for the long-staple (7-10 inch) fleeces, and $3
per pound for the medium-staple (4-7 inch) fleeces. We will pay UPS
shipping on all prepaid orders.
Please send email, call 203.535.3815, or fax 203.535.3576. Thanks.
--
Ronald Florence
ron at mlfarm.com
Re: authenticty and social reality
Date: 16 May 92
From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC
In article <1992May15.173841.27660 at watson.ibm.com> mittle at watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>
>It occurs to me that there may be some arts in which is impossible to
>re-create them except in the context of an inauthentic SCA invention. For
>example, consider court ceremony. It is impossible for a court ceremony to
>be completely authentic, since the things we are trying to do are by their
>nature not authentic. Does this bar any possibility of a Laurel for
>re-creating period ceremony?
I'd been hoping to let this arguement pass me by, but no dice.
We live in the modern world, and it is impossoble for all arts to be completely
authentic, not just some. You can get further than most with the textile arts.
Weaving was something that was done in the home, with tools still available
today. However, you are then stuck as either early period or peasant. If
you have any interest in Renaissance or Tudor garb you are out of luck unless
you are capable of weaving at ovdf 1000 threads per inch. Ok, there is an old
workshop in Italy, if you can pay $900 a meter. However, when trying to make
an authentic piece you have to make choices and compromises, not just in
your everyday projects, but in your long term killer-authentic pieces.
Sticking to a field I know about, you cannot make absolutely authentic
linen bobbin lace. There is little demand for super-fine linen thread today,
even the companies which make linen lace thread have been dropping the finest
sizes in the last few years 180/2 went 5 or 6 years ago, 140/2 went a couple
years ago, the best I have found lately is 120/2. The threads you can get
have slubs and are not the perfectly even texture of period threads. I can
spin very fine, but even 120/2 is beyond my skills. Cotton is an appropriate
substitute, because it is available in finer sizes, and smoother texture than
linen today.
So, you have a choice between using the authentic material, and having
a piece that is lower quality than the period piece would be, or using a
substitute, and having the appropriate fineness. However, I can use a period
style pillow, bobbins, pins, etc. and turn out a pretty darn good compromise.
I have a couple of lace bobbins which I feel are more period than any
I will ever own. My lord hand carved them for me in his spare time, whilst
he was signed on with the Golden Hinde. He doesn't know anything about bobbin
styles, but I showed him a couple, explained the necessary features for
functionality, and told him it was period for sailors to carve bobbins to give
to their lacemaker girlfriends. Well it is :) Anyway, the bobbins are modern
in style, but they have this totally authentic karma :):):)
Anyway, total authenticity is impossible. The choices we make when
we compromise, and the reasons for them reflect are scholarship and our own
personal feelings. Sometimes we go for looks, sometimes we go for material,
and sometimes the provenance of an object is it's greatest appeal. No one
ever got a Laurel for absolute and perfect authenticity, because it can't be
done, and there is no reason to deny one for not reaching an ideal.
-Ilaine
--
Liz Stokes | "No Officer, I'm not carrying any weapons. These?
Ilaine de Cameron | They're just wool combs, harmless spinsters use them.
| Yes I realize they have 50 6 inch razor sharp steel
ilaine at panix.com | spikes. Each. But they're not weapons ..."
Subject:book review: textiles and clothing
Date: 1 Jun 92
From: SHERMAN%TRLN.DECnet at uncvx1.acs.unc.EDU ("Dennis R. Sherman")
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Greetings to the Rialto from Robyyan.
My copy of _Textiles and Clothing_, the latest in the Museum of London
series about medieval finds arrived this weekend. For those that
don't know, this is a series of books on recoveries from archeological
sites in London. The first three books in the series are _Knives and
Scabbards_, _Shoes and Pattens_, and _Dress Accessories_. The titles
are indicative of the subject matter of each :-)
These books are terrific research and reconstruction material. They
include detailed descriptions, drawings, and photographs of recovered