lace-msg - 12/28/04
Making lace in period and SCA.
NOTE: See also the files: naalbinding-msg, knitting-msg, sewing-tools-msg, tapestries-msg, silk-msg, linen-msg, embroidery-msg, p-knitting-bib.
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From: palmer at cis.ohio-state.edu (sharon ann palmer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Tatted lace...
Date: 4 Jun 1993 11:45:44 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science
CS192408418 at LUST.LATROBE.EDU.AU (ANEAR,K) writes:
> Any tatters out there?.
>
> If anyone wants to swap tatting patterns with me, whether
> period or not (I only really have contemporary patterns)
> please write to me....
Milady, I am afraid that tatting is very much out of period. History
of Handmade Lace, Emily Jackson, 1900, says "known and practised for
over a century" which matches my memories of it beginning around 1800.
I do have a copy of Le Pompe, 1559, reproductions of period -bobbin lace-
patterns. I got it from the Lacemaker 23732-G Bothell Highway SE
Bothwell, WA 98021(206)486-0940, who also has tatting supplies and patterns.
Their catalog will make you salivate.
Netting, macrame, needlelace, and knitting are also period.
Ranvaig
Sharon Palmer palmer at cis.ohio-state.edu
From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Tatted lace...
Date: 5 Jun 1993 11:04:07 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
palmer at cis.ohio-state.edu (sharon ann palmer) writes:
>CS192408418 at LUST.LATROBE.EDU.AU (ANEAR,K) writes:
>>
>> Any tatters out there?.
>>
>> If anyone wants to swap tatting patterns with me, whether
>> period or not (I only really have contemporary patterns)
>> please write to me....
>
>Milady, I am afraid that tatting is very much out of period. History
>of Handmade Lace, Emily Jackson, 1900, says "known and practised for
>over a century" which matches my memories of it beginning around 1800.
>
>I do have a copy of Le Pompe, 1559, reproductions of period -bobbin lace-
>patterns. I got it from the Lacemaker 23732-G Bothell Highway SE
>Bothwell, WA 98021(206)486-0940, who also has tatting supplies and patterns.
>Their catalog will make you salivate.
>
>Netting, macrame, needlelace, and knitting are also period.
Tatted lace as we know it is out of period, however if you are an
enthusiastic tatter, it is possible to imitate some of the needle lace
patterns of our period. The larks-head knot used in tatting is
indestinguishable from the buttonhole stitch worked over thrown threads used
in needle lace. If you carefully study some of the bobbin lace edging patterns
in Le Pompe (especially the ones designed to imitate needle lace) you will
find you can work them out in tatting. The result will not be as authentic
as working them in bobbin or needle lace, but no one will be able to tell
from further than a foot away and it will be much better than most available
modern lace.
-Ilaine
--
Liz Stokes | Vikings? There ain't no vikings here, just us honest
Ilaine de Cameron | farmers. The town was burning, the villagers were
| dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway. That's our
ilaine at panix.com | story and we're sticking to it.
From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: crochet...is it period?
Date: 8 Jun 1993 13:46:39 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
dc238 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Linda A. McMullen) writes:
>Cawould be period (circa 11th-12th century)
>Are there any reference books or patterns available if it is?
Herewith my stock answer - if you've seen this already, I've added
a short addendum.
>I heard that crocheting could be period - is that true? And if it is,
>where I can find
>sources of period crocheting "patterns"? Crocheting is one of my favorite
>hobbies in mundane world and I'd like to expand it to SCA-world as well.
>
>Please, reply by e-mail since I have no good possibilities to read Rialto.
Well, I'll do both since others are probably wondering. A very early
form of croceted lace is late period (second half of the 16th century) but
I have no evidence for crocheted clothing.
_Lace: a History_, Santina M. Levey published in 1983 by the Victoria & Albert
Museum inn association with W. S. Maney & Son. Ltd. p.92
"Yet another development of the 1840's was the widespread adoption of
crochet, both inIreland and elsewhere. The origins of this technique are
obscure but it seems probable that it developed in France during the 17th
century. Hooked needles were used in both the passementerie and lace industries
and, in France, the 'stitch' used to link the pieces of a part of lace was
known as a 'crochetage'. The development of this stitch into an independant
technique is suggested by the Letters Patent which were granted to the French
Mercers in 1653 and which listed among their goods all forms of lace and braid,
including 'cordons facon de broderie, enriches en jolives qui se faconnent
a l'escuille, aux des doights, au crochet, et au fuseau'. The new technique
was probably stimulated by the vogue, during the second half of the seventeenth
century, for gimp and all froms of metal lace and passementerie. There are a
number of French references to crochet from this period and they suggest theat
the term was used both for the hooked needle and for a product. [...] 'Chain
lace' appears to have been the equivalent English term for the French
chainettes de crochet, although the term probably referred originally to an
open cord or braid. The earliest references date from the mid-sixteenth
century; the Earl of Leicster had beds 'garneshed with a chaine lace of goulde
and silver-copper', and it also featured in the Wardrobe Accounts of Queen
Elizabeth. The appearance of late seventeenth-century lace is perhaps
suggested by the little piece in figure 392. This border has a rather clumsy
design which none the less relates to better quality laces of the late
seventeenth century and its chained structure can only have been formed with
a hooked needle in the manner of crochet."
Whew, I'm personally a little confused, since she dates the invention
of crochet to the 17th century, then proceeds to give 16th century examples.
_Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd_ by Janet Arnold quotes one of those
wardrobe accounts Santina Levey mentions: "Enbrauderinge of a paire of Sleves
for a Wastcoat of fyne lynnen Clothe wrought allover with a worke of white
Cheyne silke lace powdered full of stitches for workemanshipp therof xls.
Item for v oz of Cheyne lace and silke spente upon the same sleves at iijs
iiijd thounce...." p. 145
The photograph mentioned in the Levy quote has the lines of the design all
done in chain stitch, with no solid areas at all. It looks a little like the
16th century braided bobbin laces (not the tape ones) only wider, and with
the more realistic rather than geometric design that the technique allows.
I had been thinking of doing a piece for Pike or TI giving crochet
directions for imitating 16th century bobbin laces for people who want the
look and don't care about total authenticity. Now I am beginning to think
that this is exactly the thing described here and it's actually correct
(eerie huh?). I'm confused though, by the description 'powdered full of
stitches'. I can't think of anything in the one photo I have that would fit
that description. I'll have to dig some more.
ADDENDUM:
I spoke with Lady Isabelle of Salisbury a while ago and she is of
the opinion (which I'm inclined to agree with) that the lace I'm describing
here is worked somewhat like needlelace or Irish crochet on a parchment
pattern. The lacemaker would make a long crochet chain (sounds dull huh?) and
couch this down on the pattern, stiching the chains together where they touch.
Now I am wondering if the 'powdered full of stitches' might be
needlelace embellishments connecting the crocheted chain. Purely guesswork
though - I'll keep looking for existing examples.
--
Liz Stokes | Vikings? There ain't no vikings here, just us honest
Ilaine de Cameron | farmers. The town was burning, the villagers were
| dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway. That's our
ilaine at panix.com | story and we're sticking to it.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Subject: Macrame in period
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 03:12:46 GMT
This is Elizabeth of Dendermonde posting on Cariadoc¹s account.
Someone a week or so ago commented on macrame in the thread on
tatting. Macrame is in fact a period lace-making technique, although
the period work I have seen pictures of does not look a lot like most
modern stuff. The books I have read claim it dates to the 15th
century, although I know of no direct evidence for it before the 16th
century. I have seen photographs of three or four 16th or early 17th
century pieces, all of which were strips of white lace, at least in
in some cases made of linen thread, using the same knots as modern or
Victorian macrame (clove hitch and square knot). They have no areas
of loose threads and are much finer than most modern macrame although
on the coarse side for lace (in at least one case the book suggested
it was edging for something like a tablecloth rather than intended
for clothing).
Elizabeth
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mjc+ at cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Subject: Re: Macrame in period
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 14:30:25 GMT
There is also a type of macrame that has been dated to 10th century Birka
(Sweden). It was done in spiral-wrapped silver wire (that is, silver wrapped
around a fiber (silk?) core) and involved two knots. One of the knots is
done in a single thread; the other is used to join two threads. I do not
know modern macrame, so I don't know if there are similar knots that readers
would know by name. ASCII simply will not suffice for illustration, but
I'll be happy to teach the knots to anyone who asks me in person (like at
Pennsic).
Ellisif
mjc at cs.cmu.edu
From: palmer at cis.ohio-state.edu (sharon ann palmer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Macrame in period
Date: 24 Jun 1993 04:39:15 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science
mjc+ at cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio) writes:
>There is also a type of macrame that has been dated to 10th century Birka
When I first saw this knotte decoration, I also called it Macrame.
A friend pointed out that this is not really an appropriate name.
The knots are very similar to those of Chinese knotting.
Ranvaig
Sharon Palmer palmer at cis.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mjc+ at cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Subject: Re: macrame in period
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1993 04:51:46 GMT
Greetings all! A few people have asked me for a reference for the Viking
"macrame" I described in an earlier post. You can see a photo of the piece
from a grave at Birka in the article "The Textile Finds from Birka", by
Agnes Geijer, in _Cloth and Clothing in Medieval Europe_ (ed. N.B. Harte
and K.G. Ponting, Heinemann Educational Books, The Pasold Research Fund Ltd,
1983. The text contains a brief description. (You'll probably have to get
the book through ILL.)
An article in _Early Period_ (ed. David and Rebecca Wendelken) Issue #7
(about 4 years ago, exact date not handy) shows how to do the knots. Note,
however, that there is an error in the depiction of the knot involving two
strands; the picture is accurate, but you can't quite get there from here.
I had a friend show me. With that 20/20 hindsight, I can see that if you
work through the diagram *backwards* you should be able to puzzle it out.
I'll be happy to demonstrate the technique to anyone who asks in person.
There are several other people in the East who can probably do so as well,
but none of us tend to make it to places like Estrella.
Ellisif
mjc at cs.cmu.edu
From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period bobbin lace prickings?
Date: 21 Jul 1993 13:46:45 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
steveg at eldred.DIALix.oz.au (Steve Gunnell) writes:
>I am in search of a source or sources of period bobbin lace prickings. I have
>already encountered the fir-tree pattern (Cromwell's baby lace). I also own a
>copy of Cynthia Voysey's "Bobbin lace in photographs" but that starts at
>1600. If anyone can give me any pointers I would be most grateful.
The source of choice is Le Pompe which is published in a facsimile
verision by Dover for about $20. The first edition was published in 1559,
thought the Dover edition has patterns from that and the later editions.
The patterns are mostly Cluny (or rather, Cluny is an imitation of this style)
and tape, rather like Russian tape laces. Just don't follow the working
instructions in the back, the (modern) author doesn't use nearly enough
bobbins and they don't come out looking right.
If you prefer Torchon, there is a Swedish (I think) edition of a
period German lace book - the Modelbuch which is mostly Torchon and the
modern prickings that are included in this edition look very good though I
haven't tried any yet. Unfortunately, I believe it runs around $60 US.
After you have worked out a few of the Le Pompe patterns, you might
try your hand at working out prickings for some of the laces you see in
period portraits - the paintings are so detailed that this is fairly easily
done.
-Ilaine
--
Liz Stokes | Ilaine's E-Z Garb Workshop ... Okay, now take the fabric
Ilaine de Cameron | off the loom (or away from the kittens). It needs to be
| finished. Just find some fullers' earth, a convenient
ilaine at panix.com | stream, and some husky peasants to pound it with rocks.
From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: bobbin lace
Date: 22 Jul 1993 13:09:20 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
holsten at golden.berkeley.edu () writes:
>As long as we're discussing bobbin lace...
>
>I am a beginning bobbin lacer who is almost ready to try a real project.
>The only problem, is that once I started researching uses of bobbin lace
>in period, I could find very few. I know that it existed in late
>period, but most of the ruffs/cuffs, etc. that I see in portraits look
>like they were done in another lace form (reticella? I'm certainly no
>lace expert...). Certainly none of the lace I see in portraits looks
>even remotely like the patterns I've been practising on. So what was
>bobbin lace used for? Was it just used as a ground for needle made
>lace? Or am I just looking at the wrong portraits?
Many bobbin lace patterns of the period were designed to imitate
needle lace which is far more time consuming and expensive. One of the Dover
paperbacks - Mincoff and Marriage, _Pillow_Lace_ has a photo of an extant
length of bobbin lace that looks like the pattern was drawn from the
reticella patterns in Vinciolo (a 16th cent. needle lace pattern book).
Many of the modern Cluny patterns fall into this category, if you look through
folios of Cluny patterns you are likely to find several which will be
perfectly acceptable for our period, in fact I'm working up one such pattern
now for a handkerchief. As a general rule you can always substitute bobbin
for needle lace anywhere you see it in portraits and if you look very closely
you may find it *is* bobbin lace.
If you are confused becuase none of the period laces you see look
like Torchon, I think it is because that style was less popular in England
and France than the braid laces. There is a surviving period bobbin lace
pattern book, the Modelbuch which is mostly Torchon patterns, so perhaps the
style was more popular in Germany. I have seen a few examples of Torchon
lace in period portraits in Santina Levey's book _Lace_a_History_, but
they are far outnumbered by the braid and tape styles.
-Ilaine
--
Liz Stokes | Ilaine's E-Z Garb Workshop ... Okay, now take the fabric
Ilaine de Cameron | off the loom (or away from the kittens). It needs to be
| finished. Just find some fullers' earth, a convenient
ilaine at panix.com | stream, and some husky peasants to pound it with rocks.
From: donna at kwantlen.bc.CA (Donna Hrynkiw)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: bobbin lace
Date: 23 Jul 1993 16:17:30 -0400
Organization: The Internet
Greetings to the Rialto from Elizabeth Braidwood.
At last! A *real* topic:
Steveg Stevegsson asked about period bobbin lace patterns.
Ilaine <ilaine at panix.com> replies:
> The source of choice is Le Pompe which is published in a facsimile
>verision by Dover for about $20.
The book's full title is "Le Pompe, 1559 - Patterns for Venetian Bobbin
Lace" by Santina Levey and Patricia Payne. It is the most readily available
period bobbin lace pattern book (blessings on Dover)!
> Just don't follow the working
> instructions in the back, the (modern) author doesn't use nearly enough
> bobbins and they don't come out looking right.
Actually, I've found that Payne used thread that was too thin rather
than too few bobbins. (Although that may have contributed as well.) She
also uses some techniques that weren't developed until post-period.
Use heavier thread and you'll be fine.
I've worked about a half-dozen of the medium-difficulty patterns and find
the results to be surprisingly attractive -- more so than either the
patterns or the worked examples.
Ilaine, do you have any thoughts what the "holes" in some of the braids
are supposed to represent? (The holes are about 1/16" across on the
patterns and only appear in the path of the braid.) They are too big to
be pin-holes, and would be very awkward to work as holes (and after removing
the lace from the pillow, they'd tend to close). I think Burkhard (see
below) who interpreted them as "bumps" in the lace, to be worked as
protrusions from the surface of the lace. I'm toying with the idea that
they might represent placement for beads or spangles -- both have been
known to be applied to bobbin lace.
> If you prefer Torchon, there is a Swedish (I think) edition of a
> period German lace book - the Modelbuch which is mostly Torchon and the
Are you talking about the "Nuw Modelbuch, allerley Gattungen Dantelschnur"?
("Modelbuch" only means "pattern-book" and there are many with that
word in the title.) It's published under the name of "Fascinating Bobbin
Lace" by Claire Burkhard and is a three-booklet set: an accurate-size
hardcover facsimile, a hardcover booklet with a selection of worked patterns,
and a folder of prickings for the worked samples. I paid about $US65 for
my copy two years ago. Burkhard has done a lovely job interpreting the
working and usage of the lace (on towels, tablecloths, and the odd piece
of clothing).
I have to disagree with your statement that the patterns are mostly Torchon.
They are not Torchon, and are fairly similar to the Pompe patterns.
Joanna asks:
> once I started researching uses of bobbin lace
> in period, I could find very few. I know that it existed in late
> period, but most of the ruffs/cuffs, etc. that I see in portraits look
> like they were done in another lace form
> So what was