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lace-msg - 4/4/09

 

Making lace in period and SCA.

 

NOTE: See also the files: naalbinding-msg, knitting-msg, sewing-tools-msg,  tapestries-msg, silk-msg, linen-msg, embroidery-msg, p-knitting-bib.

 

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NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

 

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org

************************************************************************

 

From: palmer at cis.ohio-state.edu (sharon ann palmer)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Tatted lace...

Date: 4 Jun 1993 11:45:44 -0400

Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science

 

CS192408418 at LUST.LATROBE.EDU.AU (ANEAR,K) writes:

>      Any tatters out there?.

>

>      If anyone wants to swap tatting patterns with me, whether

>      period or not (I only really have contemporary patterns)

>      please write to me....

 

Milady, I am afraid that tatting is very much out of period. History

of Handmade Lace, Emily Jackson, 1900, says "known and practised for

over a century" which matches my memories of it beginning around 1800.

 

I do have a copy of Le Pompe, 1559, reproductions of period -bobbin lace-

patterns.  I got it from the Lacemaker 23732-G Bothell Highway SE

Bothwell, WA 98021(206)486-0940, who also has tatting supplies and patterns.

Their catalog will make you salivate.

 

Netting, macrame, needlelace, and knitting are also period.

 

Ranvaig

Sharon Palmer   palmer at cis.ohio-state.edu

 

 

From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Tatted lace...

Date: 5 Jun 1993 11:04:07 -0400

Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

 

palmer at cis.ohio-state.edu (sharon ann palmer) writes:

>CS192408418 at LUST.LATROBE.EDU.AU (ANEAR,K) writes:

>>

>>     Any tatters out there?.

>>

>>     If anyone wants to swap tatting patterns with me, whether

>>     period or not (I only really have contemporary patterns)

>>     please write to me....

>

>Milady, I am afraid that tatting is very much out of period. History

>of Handmade Lace, Emily Jackson, 1900, says "known and practised for

>over a century" which matches my memories of it beginning around 1800.

>

>I do have a copy of Le Pompe, 1559, reproductions of period -bobbin lace-

>patterns.  I got it from the Lacemaker 23732-G Bothell Highway SE

>Bothwell, WA 98021(206)486-0940, who also has tatting supplies and patterns.

>Their catalog will make you salivate.

>

>Netting, macrame, needlelace, and knitting are also period.

 

        Tatted lace as we know it is out of period, however if you are an

enthusiastic tatter, it is possible to imitate some of the needle lace

patterns of our period. The larks-head knot used in tatting is

indestinguishable from the buttonhole stitch worked over thrown threads used

in needle lace. If you carefully study some of the bobbin lace edging patterns

in Le Pompe (especially the ones designed to imitate needle lace) you will

find you can work them out in tatting. The result will not be as authentic

as working them in bobbin or needle lace, but no one will be able to tell

from further than a foot away and it will be much better than most available

modern lace.

 

-Ilaine

--

Liz Stokes         |       Vikings? There ain't no vikings here, just us honest

Ilaine de Cameron  |       farmers. The town was burning, the villagers were

                   |       dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway. That's our

ilaine at panix.com   |    story and we're sticking to it.

 

 

From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: crochet...is it period?

Date: 8 Jun 1993 13:46:39 -0400

Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

 

dc238 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Linda A. McMullen) writes:

>Cawould be period (circa 11th-12th century)

>Are there any reference books or patterns available if it is?

 

        Herewith my stock answer - if you've seen this already, I've added

a short addendum.

 

>I heard that crocheting could be period - is that true? And if it is,

>where I can find

>sources of period crocheting "patterns"? Crocheting is one of my favorite

>hobbies in mundane world and I'd like to expand it to SCA-world as well.

>

>Please, reply by e-mail since I have no good possibilities to read Rialto.

 

        Well, I'll do both since others are probably wondering. A very early

form of croceted lace is late period (second half of the 16th century) but

I have no evidence for crocheted clothing.

 

_Lace: a History_, Santina M. Levey published in 1983 by the Victoria & Albert

Museum inn association with W. S. Maney & Son. Ltd. p.92

        "Yet another development of the 1840's was the widespread adoption of

crochet, both inIreland and elsewhere. The origins of this technique are

obscure but it seems probable that it developed in France during the 17th

century. Hooked needles were used in both the passementerie and lace industries

and, in France, the 'stitch' used to link the pieces of a part of lace was

known as a 'crochetage'. The development of this stitch into an independant

technique is suggested  by the Letters Patent which were granted to the French

Mercers in 1653 and which listed among their goods all forms of lace and braid,

including 'cordons facon de broderie, enriches en jolives qui se faconnent

a l'escuille, aux des doights, au crochet, et au fuseau'. The new technique

was probably stimulated by the vogue, during the second half of the seventeenth

century, for gimp and all froms of metal lace and passementerie. There are a

number of French references to crochet from this period and they suggest theat

the term was used both for the hooked needle and for a product. [...] 'Chain

lace' appears to have been the equivalent English term for the French

chainettes de crochet, although the term probably referred originally to an

open cord or braid. The earliest references date from the mid-sixteenth

century; the Earl of Leicster had beds 'garneshed with a chaine lace of goulde

and silver-copper', and it also featured in the Wardrobe Accounts of Queen

Elizabeth. The appearance of late seventeenth-century lace is perhaps

suggested by the little piece in figure 392. This border has a rather clumsy

design which none the less relates to better quality laces of the late

seventeenth century and its chained structure can only have been formed with

a hooked needle in the manner of crochet."

 

        Whew, I'm personally a little confused, since she dates the invention

of crochet to the 17th century, then proceeds to give 16th century examples.

_Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd_ by Janet Arnold quotes one of those

wardrobe accounts Santina Levey mentions: "Enbrauderinge of a paire of Sleves

for a Wastcoat of fyne lynnen Clothe wrought allover with a worke of white

Cheyne silke lace powdered full of stitches for workemanshipp therof xls.

Item for v oz of Cheyne lace and silke spente upon the same sleves at iijs

iiijd thounce...." p. 145

 

The photograph mentioned in the Levy quote has the lines of the design all

done in chain stitch, with no solid areas at all. It looks a little like the

16th century braided bobbin laces (not the tape ones) only wider, and with

the more realistic rather than geometric design that the technique allows.

        I had been thinking of doing a piece for Pike or TI giving crochet

directions for imitating 16th century bobbin laces for people who want the

look and don't care about total authenticity. Now I am beginning to think

that this is exactly the thing described here and it's actually correct

(eerie huh?). I'm confused though, by the description 'powdered full of

stitches'. I can't think of anything in the one photo I have that would fit

that description. I'll have to dig some more.

 

        ADDENDUM:

        I spoke with Lady Isabelle of Salisbury a while ago and she is of

the opinion (which I'm inclined to agree with) that the lace I'm describing

here is worked somewhat like needlelace or Irish crochet on a parchment

pattern. The lacemaker would make a long crochet chain (sounds dull huh?) and

couch this down on the pattern, stiching the chains together where they touch.

        Now I am wondering if the 'powdered full of stitches' might be

needlelace embellishments connecting the crocheted chain. Purely guesswork

though - I'll keep looking for existing examples.

--

Liz Stokes         |       Vikings? There ain't no vikings here, just us honest

Ilaine de Cameron  |       farmers. The town was burning, the villagers were

                   |       dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway. That's our

ilaine at panix.com   |    story and we're sticking to it.

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)

Subject: Macrame in period

Organization: University of Chicago

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 03:12:46 GMT

 

This is Elizabeth of Dendermonde posting on Cariadoc’s account.

 

Someone a week or so ago commented on macrame in the thread on

tatting.  Macrame is in fact a period lace-making technique, although

the period work I have seen pictures of does not look a lot like most

modern stuff.  The books I have read claim it dates to the 15th

century, although I know of no direct evidence for it before the 16th

century.  I have seen photographs of three or four 16th or early 17th

century pieces, all of which were strips of white lace, at least in

in some cases made of linen thread, using the same knots as modern or

Victorian macrame (clove hitch and square knot).  They have no areas

of loose threads and are much finer than most modern macrame although

on the coarse side for lace (in at least one case the book suggested

it was edging for something like a tablecloth rather than intended

for clothing).

 

Elizabeth

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: mjc+ at cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)

Subject: Re: Macrame in period

Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 14:30:25 GMT

 

There is also a type of macrame that has been dated to 10th century Birka

(Sweden).  It was done in spiral-wrapped silver wire (that is, silver wrapped

around a fiber (silk?) core) and involved two knots.  One of the knots is

done in a single thread; the other is used to join two threads.  I do not

know modern macrame, so I don't know if there are similar knots that readers

would know by name.  ASCII simply will not suffice for illustration, but

I'll be happy to teach the knots to anyone who asks me in person (like at

Pennsic).

 

Ellisif

mjc at cs.cmu.edu

 

 

From: palmer at cis.ohio-state.edu (sharon ann palmer)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Macrame in period

Date: 24 Jun 1993 04:39:15 -0400

Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science

 

mjc+ at cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio) writes:

>There is also a type of macrame that has been dated to 10th century Birka

 

When I first saw this knotte decoration, I also called it Macrame.  

A friend pointed out that this is not really an appropriate name.

The knots are very similar to those of Chinese knotting.

 

Ranvaig

Sharon Palmer         palmer at cis.ohio-state.edu

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: mjc+ at cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)

Subject: Re: macrame in period

Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1993 04:51:46 GMT

 

Greetings all!  A few people have asked me for a reference for the Viking

"macrame" I described in an earlier post.  You can see a photo of the piece

from a grave at Birka in the article "The Textile Finds from Birka", by

Agnes Geijer, in _Cloth and Clothing in Medieval Europe_ (ed. N.B. Harte

and K.G. Ponting, Heinemann Educational Books, The Pasold Research Fund Ltd,

1983.  The text contains a brief description.  (You'll probably have to get

the book through ILL.)

 

An article in _Early Period_ (ed. David and Rebecca Wendelken) Issue #7

(about 4 years ago, exact date not handy) shows how to do the knots.  Note,

however, that there is an error in the depiction of the knot involving two

strands; the picture is accurate, but you can't quite get there from here.

I had a friend show me.  With that 20/20 hindsight, I can see that if you

work through the diagram *backwards* you should be able to puzzle it out.

 

I'll be happy to demonstrate the technique to anyone who asks in person.

There are several other people in the East who can probably do so as well,

but none of us tend to make it to places like Estrella.

 

Ellisif

mjc at cs.cmu.edu

 

 

From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period bobbin lace prickings?

Date: 21 Jul 1993 13:46:45 -0400

Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

 

steveg at eldred.DIALix.oz.au (Steve Gunnell) writes:

>I am in search of a source or sources of period bobbin lace prickings. I have

>already encountered the fir-tree pattern (Cromwell's baby lace). I also own a

>copy of Cynthia Voysey's "Bobbin lace in photographs" but that starts at

>1600. If anyone can give me any pointers I would be most grateful.

 

        The source of choice is Le Pompe which is published in a facsimile

verision  by Dover for about $20. The first edition was published in 1559,

thought the Dover edition has patterns from that and the later editions.

The patterns are mostly Cluny (or rather, Cluny is an imitation of this style)

and tape, rather like Russian tape laces. Just don't follow the working

instructions in the back, the (modern) author doesn't use nearly enough

bobbins and they don't come out looking right.

        If you prefer Torchon, there is a Swedish (I think) edition of a

period German lace book - the Modelbuch which is mostly Torchon and the

modern prickings that are included in this edition look very good though I

haven't tried any yet. Unfortunately, I believe it runs around $60 US.

        After you have worked out a few of the Le Pompe patterns, you might

try your hand at working out prickings for some of the laces you see in

period portraits - the paintings are so detailed that this is fairly easily

done.

 

-Ilaine

--

Liz Stokes         | Ilaine's E-Z Garb Workshop ...  Okay, now take the fabric

Ilaine de Cameron  | off the loom (or away from the kittens). It needs to be

                   | finished. Just find some fullers' earth, a convenient

ilaine at panix.com   | stream, and some husky peasants to pound it with rocks.

 

 

From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: bobbin lace

Date: 22 Jul 1993 13:09:20 -0400

Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

 

holsten at golden.berkeley.edu () writes:

>As long as we're discussing bobbin lace...

>

>I am a beginning bobbin lacer who is almost ready to try a real project.

>The only problem, is that once I started researching uses of bobbin lace

>in period, I could find very few.  I know that it existed in late

>period, but most of the ruffs/cuffs, etc. that I see in portraits look

>like they were done in another lace form (reticella? I'm certainly no

>lace expert...).  Certainly none of the lace I see in portraits looks

>even remotely like the patterns I've been practising on.  So what was

>bobbin lace used for?  Was it just used as a ground for needle made

>lace?  Or am I just looking at the wrong portraits?

 

        Many bobbin lace patterns of the period were designed to imitate

needle lace which is far more time consuming and expensive. One of the Dover

paperbacks - Mincoff and Marriage, _Pillow_Lace_ has a photo of an extant

length of bobbin lace that looks like the pattern was drawn from the

reticella patterns in Vinciolo (a 16th cent. needle lace pattern book).

Many of the modern Cluny patterns fall into this category, if you look through

folios of Cluny patterns you are likely to find several which will be

perfectly acceptable for our period, in fact I'm working up one such pattern

now for a handkerchief.   As a general rule you can always substitute bobbin

for needle lace anywhere you see it in portraits and if you look very closely

you may find it *is* bobbin lace.

        If you are confused becuase none of the period laces you see look

like Torchon, I think it is because that style was less popular in England

and France than the braid laces. There is a surviving period bobbin lace

pattern book, the Modelbuch which is mostly Torchon patterns, so perhaps the

style was more popular in Germany. I have seen a few examples of Torchon

lace in period portraits in Santina Levey's book _Lace_a_History_, but

they are far outnumbered by the braid and tape styles.

 

-Ilaine

--

Liz Stokes         | Ilaine's E-Z Garb Workshop ...  Okay, now take the fabric

Ilaine de Cameron  | off the loom (or away from the kittens). It needs to be

                   | finished. Just find some fullers' earth, a convenient

ilaine at panix.com   | stream, and some husky peasants to pound it with rocks.

 

 

From: donna at kwantlen.bc.CA (Donna Hrynkiw)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: bobbin lace

Date: 23 Jul 1993 16:17:30 -0400

Organization: The Internet

 

Greetings to the Rialto from Elizabeth Braidwood.

 

At last! A *real* topic:

Steveg Stevegsson asked about period bobbin lace patterns.

 

Ilaine <ilaine at panix.com> replies:

>        The source of choice is Le Pompe which is published in a facsimile

>verision  by Dover for about $20.

    The book's full title is "Le Pompe, 1559 - Patterns for Venetian Bobbin

Lace" by Santina Levey and Patricia Payne. It is the most readily available

period bobbin lace pattern book (blessings on Dover)!

 

> Just don't follow the working

> instructions in the back, the (modern) author doesn't use nearly enough

> bobbins and they don't come out looking right.

Actually, I've found that Payne used thread that was too thin rather

than too few bobbins. (Although that may have contributed as well.) She

also uses some techniques that weren't developed until post-period.

Use heavier thread and you'll be fine.

 

I've worked about a half-dozen of the medium-difficulty patterns and find

the results to be surprisingly attractive -- more so than either the

patterns or the worked examples.

 

Ilaine, do you have any thoughts what the "holes" in some of the braids

are supposed to represent? (The holes are about 1/16" across on the

patterns and only appear in the path of the braid.) They are too big to

be pin-holes, and would be very awkward to work as holes (and after removing

the lace from the pillow, they'd tend to close). I think Burkhard (see

below) who interpreted them as "bumps" in the lace, to be worked as

protrusions from the surface of the lace. I'm toying with the idea that

they might represent placement for beads or spangles -- both have been

known to be applied to bobbin lace.

 

>         If you prefer Torchon, there is a Swedish (I think) edition of a

> period German lace book - the Modelbuch which is mostly Torchon and the

Are you talking about the "Nuw Modelbuch, allerley Gattungen Dantelschnur"?

("Modelbuch" only means "pattern-book" and there are many with that

word in the title.) It's published under the name of "Fascinating Bobbin

Lace" by Claire Burkhard and is a three-booklet set: an accurate-size

hardcover facsimile, a hardcover booklet with a selection of worked patterns,

and a folder of prickings for the worked samples. I paid about $US65 for

my copy two years ago. Burkhard has done a lovely job interpreting the

working and usage of the lace (on towels, tablecloths, and the odd piece

of clothing).

 

I have to disagree with your statement that the patterns are mostly Torchon.

They are not Torchon, and are fairly similar to the Pompe patterns.

 

Joanna asks:

> once I started researching uses of bobbin lace

> in period, I could find very few.  I know that it existed in late

> period, but most of the ruffs/cuffs, etc. that I see in portraits look

> like they were done in another lace form

> So what was

> bobbin lace used for?

 

Ilaine replies:

> Many bobbin lace patterns of the period were designed to imitate

> needle lace which is far more time consuming and expensive.

Yes. But bobbin lace had a life apart from trying to imitate needle lace.

 

I suspect the early bobbin laces were used on household linens and

undergarments rather than as decoration on outer garments. And Joanne,

turn your attention from the cuffs and ruffs to the braid that is laid

ON the garment. Many of the lines of braid and decoration on jackets and

gowns were in fact made with bobbin lace, often in metal threads. The

structure of the braids in Le Pompe supports this theory: many of the

braids would be easily pulled out of shape if they weren't mounted on

some sort of backing.

 

> One of the Dover

> paperbacks - Mincoff and Marriage, _Pillow_Lace_ has a photo of an extant

> length of bobbin lace that looks like the pattern was drawn from the

> reticella patterns in Vinciolo (a 16th cent. needle lace pattern book).

Vinciolo is also available in Dover: Renaissance Patterns for Lace,

Embroidery and Needlepoit (1587) but most of the lace patterns are for

needlelace.

 

> Many of the modern Cluny patterns fall into this category [imitating

> needle lace], if you look through

> folios of Cluny patterns you are likely to find several which will be

> perfectly acceptable for our period...

Youbetcha. Cluny has those lovely deep scallops that were so common in

the early renaissance.

 

> I have seen a few examples of Torchon

> lace in period portraits in Santina Levey's book _Lace_a_History_, but

> they are far outnumbered by the braid and tape styles.

Another excellent (although expensive) book; ask for it through ILL.

==================

Elizabeth "E.B." Braidwood                Donna Hrynkiw

An Tir                                    Kwantlen College

donna at kwantlen.bc.ca                      Surrey, B.C.

 

 

From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: bobbin lace

Date: 24 Jul 1993 22:18:28 -0400

Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

 

donna at kwantlen.bc.CA (Donna Hrynkiw) writes:

>Greetings to the Rialto from Elizabeth Braidwood.

>

>At last! A *real* topic:

 

:^)

 

(quoting me...)

>> Just don't follow the working

>> instructions in the back, the (modern) author doesn't use nearly enough

>> bobbins and they don't come out looking right.

>Actually, I've found that Payne used thread that was too thin rather

>than too few bobbins. (Although that may have contributed as well.) She

>also uses some techniques that weren't developed until post-period.

>Use heavier thread and you'll be fine.

 

        Right, I should have been more specific. She uses too thin thread

for the braid style patterns, and too few bobbins (and too thick thread)

for the tape patterns. If you look closely at the surviving examples they

are 'warp faced' with too many threads travelling longwise for a balanced

plainweave effect, instead they are bunched tightly and the 'warp' threads

are fairly widely spaced and get hidden giving the tape a satiny appearance.

 

>I've worked about a half-dozen of the medium-difficulty patterns and find

>the results to be surprisingly attractive -- more so than either the

>patterns or the worked examples.

 

        Ditto likewise, have you tried DMC's Fil or mi-fin? It's a pain

to work with but it is (partly) real metal and gives a fabulous effect.

 

>Ilaine, do you have any thoughts what the "holes" in some of the braids

>are supposed to represent? (The holes are about 1/16" across on the

>patterns and only appear in the path of the braid.) They are too big to

>be pin-holes, and would be very awkward to work as holes (and after removing

>the lace from the pillow, they'd tend to close). I think Burkhard (see

>below) who interpreted them as "bumps" in the lace, to be worked as

>protrusions from the surface of the lace. I'm toying with the idea that

>they might represent placement for beads or spangles -- both have been

>known to be applied to bobbin lace.

 

        You could certainly spangle them, but I believe they are worked

as holes. Put a twist in the passives on each side of the hole, and in the

workers as they pass top and bottom. It will leave a space that doesn't close.

 

>>         If you prefer Torchon, there is a Swedish (I think) edition of a

>> period German lace book - the Modelbuch which is mostly Torchon and the

>Are you talking about the "Nuw Modelbuch, allerley Gattungen Dantelschnur"?

>("Modelbuch" only means "pattern-book" and there are many with that

>word in the title.) It's published under the name of "Fascinating Bobbin

>Lace" by Claire Burkhard and is a three-booklet set: an accurate-size

>hardcover facsimile, a hardcover booklet with a selection of worked patterns,

>and a folder of prickings for the worked samples. I paid about $US65 for

>my copy two years ago. Burkhard has done a lovely job interpreting the

>working and usage of the lace (on towels, tablecloths, and the odd piece

>of clothing).

 

        That's the one, but I didn't have it handy when I posted. I don't

have my own copy, I was looking at my Mistress'.

 

>I have to disagree with your statement that the patterns are mostly Torchon.

>They are not Torchon, and are fairly similar to the Pompe patterns.

 

        Checking through my xeroxes of the prickings, I see you're right,

they are at least half Le Pompe style. Guess I was so struck by finding

torchon patterns at all that's all I remembered.

       

>I suspect the early bobbin laces were used on household linens and

>undergarments rather than as decoration on outer garments. And Joanne,

>turn your attention from the cuffs and ruffs to the braid that is laid

>ON the garment. Many of the lines of braid and decoration on jackets and

>gowns were in fact made with bobbin lace, often in metal threads. The

>structure of the braids in Le Pompe supports this theory: many of the

>braids would be easily pulled out of shape if they weren't mounted on

>some sort of backing.

 

        Careful, a lot of the braids are couched thread or 'passementerie'.

The patterns are so similar it's hard to tell from a painting. On the other

hand it doesn't matter - you can substitute any in place of the other.

 

>> Many of the modern Cluny patterns fall into this category [imitating

>> needle lace], if you look through

>> folios of Cluny patterns you are likely to find several which will be

>> perfectly acceptable for our period...

>Youbetcha. Cluny has those lovely deep scallops that were so common in

>the early renaissance.

 

        The pattern I am working has circles in the scallops with

alternating 'stars' and rosettes just like the Vinciolo needle patterns.

I just had to substitute cloth stitch for half stitch on one of the circle

borders.

        Got any good patterns in progress Elizabeth? Going to Pennsic?

I'll show you mine if you show me yours :^)

 

-Liz

--

Liz Stokes         | Ilaine's E-Z Garb Workshop ...  Okay, now take the fabric

Ilaine de Cameron  | off the loom (or away from the kittens). It needs to be

                   | finished. Just find some fullers' earth, a convenient

ilaine at panix.com   | stream, and some husky peasants to pound it with rocks.

 

 

From: sapalmer at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sharon A Palmer)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Making lace

Date: 19 Nov 1993 01:05:09 GMT

Organization: The Ohio State University

 

TMBEATY at main.rmwc.EDU (Oracle) writes:

>I have been passing on the posts about weaving to a friend of mine,

>and she is most interested in knowing if anyone knows about "making

>lace [as] a profession." (I'm not quite sure what she meant, but

 

Greetings Telleri,

 

Could your friend ask more specific questions?  Is she interested as

choosing lacemaking as her persona's occupation?  Tring to make her

living at it today?  Just wanting to know more about lace making?

What kind of lace?  Needle lace, bobbin lace, embroidered net?

 

In period, some lace was produced by nuns and gentlewomen, but if it was

for sale, it probably was made by poor women.  Unless you are doing for

love, even expensive lace only earns the maker a pittance. Some still

earn a living at it in China today, but anywhere with a higher standard

standard of living it is a hobby or avocation.

 

Ranvaig (Sharon Palmer)

 

 

From: jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: viking lace

Date: 1 Dec 93 17:24:16

Organization: STC Technology Ltd., London Road, Harlow, UK.

 

For all those who enquired here's a brief description of the stuff

in one of the other books in the Birka series:

Title: BIRKA III Die Textilfunde

Author: Agnes Geijer

Publisher: Almqvist Wiksells Boktryckeri-Aktiebolag

Publication date: 1938

 

The book describes finds of textiles and associated ornament from

Viking cemetary at Birka. There are plates at the back and

the occasional figure in the text. The text is all in German.

 

There is lots of dress ornament in the form of rows of knots

or plats made from metallic thread, or in some cases drawn wire

 

There are also lacework stags facing backwards.

It looks like simple honiton lace: little loops in the wire at the

figures edges suggests they were made on pins as modern lace is.

 

There is openwork mesh ornamentation that looks like it was made

with needlebinding and reminds me of stuff from the Mammen find

(Bjerringhoj) described by Margrethe Hald.

 

There are also ornaments of plaited wire bent into ovals then

joined in pairs to make a squashed sphere, and coins

wrapped in a wire cross then edged with wire semicircles

to make a thing like a child's picture of a flower.

 

These seem to have been sewn on in rows, perhaps in the way

some eastern European and northern indian tribes used to

decorate shirts with rows of coins?

 

The same book describes finds of tablet weaving with gold

and silver brocade.

 

There is an absolutely sickening amount of gold and silver spread

about on the clothing, I wish I were rich enough to reproduce it with

the original materials, at the moment its strictly tinned copper wire

and plastic "metallic" threads for me :-( Still I'm told by people

who've used the real thing that plastic looks about the same anyway

:-)

 

Jennifer

 

Vanaheim Vikings

 

 

From: haslock at oleum.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Is tatting period?

Date: 18 Jan 1994 22:36:34 GMT

Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

 

Greetings from Fiacha,

 

To the best of my knowledge, there is no evidence that tatting is period.

 

In addition, the available evidence suggests that tatting in threads fine

enough to deserve the name 'lace' was not done until the closing years of

the 18th century. The chain technique was added in the 19th century followed

by picots.

 

Mid 18th century portraits show ladies working with shuttles 6 to 8 fingers

long (i.e. as long as the width of 6 to 8 of the users fingers). The result

appears to be clumps of knotted stuff separated by lengths of thread. Thus

it does not appear that they are using the shuttle to produce lace.

 

Even so, competant tatters tend to be respected by lace makers.

 

        Fiacha

        haslock at zso.dec.com

 

 

From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honur Horne-Jaruk)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Is tatting period?

Date: Tue, 18 Jan 94 23:58:35 EST

 

mie at faline.bellcore.com (Martin I. Eiger) writes:

> I think this subject came up a number of months ago, but I can no

> longer find/access the relevant messages. IS tatting period? I have

> books on the subject that assert that tatting has been found in

> ancient Egyptian tombs, or developed during the Renaissance as a cheap

> substitute for knotted lace, but none of them cite _their_ sources for

> this information. As best I can tell, tatting seems to have sprung out

> of nowhere sometime during the eighteenth century.

>

> Could someone give me a definite answer on the period-ness of tatting?

>

> Thanks in advance.

>

> Elisa da Montagna del Susino

> Elisa Eiger

> mie at thumper.bellcore.com

 

Unto Elisa da Montagna del Susino, and any and all other interested persons,

does Alizaunde de Bregeuf send greetings and apologies for the approaching

heat wave :-<

        Time to slit my own throat again.....

        At some unknown point before 1450, a variation of needlemade lace

developed which used lots of pretty little circles sewn together to form lace.

Unless you are yourself

        1: a needlelacer

        2: in posession of a scanning microscope that can `read' through

museum glass and

        3:stubborn as-(fill in the blank)

you're not going to be able to tell the difference between this lace, which

the curator of a very small local museum I got dragged to around '73 called

`Punto Rondelo(sp?)', and the simplest, circles-only forms of tatting.

We know the name of the woman who invented modern tatting, using a netmaking

shuttle and a pin to speed the production of sew-round-rings lace

some fiftyfold. One of my (Presently stored,*it!) history of lace books has

her portrait and her tombstone inscription. She died about 1750-60.

        Therefore, obviously, modern tatting can't be period.

        HOWEVER- If you use a tatting shuttle and very fine thread to re-

produce the original stuff at a pace faster than lifetimes, I'll applaud-

AS LONG AS YOU TELL PEOPLE THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE DOING!

        I've had about a million antique`Tatting shuttles', in painted and

photographic and (Once) real live form shoved under my nose in the past twenty

years, with `so there!' either implied or stated, as `proof' that tatting is

`period'. Many of them, including the real one, were still attatched to the

object they were being used to make. It was netting- every time. When I pointed

this out to the other parties, the responses ranged from `Oh' to `Liar Liar

Pants on Fire' to- (this is the one that leads me to expect a rise in the

ambient temperature approaching)

        And I quote-

"HOW DARE YOU ruin things for all these wonderful people by dragging in

sick little details that should never have been passed down in the first

place? I TEACH TATTING, I SAY IT'S PERIOD, AND IF YOU DARE SAY DIFFERENTLY

YOU WILL REGRET IT.!!!"

        At least she doesn't live in the East anymore...

        The way to tell the difference, if you still dare: the needlemade

lace has the circles _sewn_ together. Tatting has the circles joined with a

loop. All eleven pieces of `Punto rondelo'- the curator was Italian and

ninety, Heaven alone knows what a real museum would call it- I have ever

seen (two were in Germany, and labeled, oddly enough, in German) were

absolutely picot- free. I have no idea why, or if that was usual.

        As I said, without a scanning microscope, if it has no picot it could

be either. Just do the Universe a favor and don't make Dayglo Orange Baby

Unicorn-Teddys with it!

        (Okay, please do me a favor and don't use any other kind of lace

technique to make them, either.)

        As for documentation, I have several books which quote various authors

as evidence of an early origin for tatting. I quote only one, to save space:

`Old Time Tools and Toys of Needlework', by Gertrude Whiting, Dover reprint

of 1928 original

        "The ladies of Chaucer's day (1375-1400) were fond of plaiting threads

into a little looped edging which they called purling or pearling. Purling is

mentioned in Canterbury Tales (1390). This so far as I can discover, is the

earliest mention in English or French of the particular sort of art we wish

to discuss, though `purling', of course, may allude not precisely to tatting,

but, as it does today, to knitting."

        -More likely still, though knitting (On six needles!) existed by then-

they were, as she herself said, `plaiting'.

        I don't have a single quote which is any more proof than this one

of a period origin.

        Go ahead and tat. (Make me a ruff- I'll wear it. and I hate ruffs.)

Just please don't say it's period. Say it's a fast way to reproduce a

fiendishly time- consuming period lace, which is the absolute truth, and in my

opinion a good thing.

        Good luck- to both of us...

        Honour, who has tatted and probably will again.(Alizaunde can't tat.

See above. And she won't do Punto Rondelo; she hires people for that sort of

thing.)

 

 

From: kkozmins at mtholyoke.edu (Kim C Kozminski)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Medieval Knitting

Date: 4 May 1994 19:29:18 GMT

Organization: Mount Holyoke College

 

Mistress Agnes,who used to reside in Carolingia and now lives somewhere in

Atlantia is the knitting wiz.  I'll see if I can dig up her address and

e-mail it to you.  

Crochet is a topic I can help you on.  Durring Elizabethian times, and

possibly before , according to my armouring friends, their exsited crochet

fabrics used for "jacks" (gambison-like jackets, worn under armour) and arming

caps.

Crochet would be great for this purpose as it is reslient and it breathes.

I believe they were made of jute.  Crochet lace as we now know it probably

didn't exsist until the the 17 or 1800's.  A type of lace known as "chayne

lace" appears in some 16th and 17th century inventories, and mention is

made in a 17th century guild charter of lace made with a hook.  Most

experts, however, fell that this was probably a cord made with

chain-stitches which was then sewn back on itself to make a lace-like

fabric or passement (trim).  

        Pat Ernshaw's book, "Lace in Fashion" and Santina Levey's "Lace: a

History" are good resources for information on early crochet lace.

 

        Mistress Roen --

 

 

From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Medieval Knitting

Date: Mon, 09 May 94 09:10:52 EDT

 

ghesmiz at strauss.udel.edu (Michael Macchione) writes:

> Well, I can't knit but I can crochet.  I am still reasonably new to the

> SCA and was told once that "I'm sure that it is period. I'm sure someone

> told me that it was."  Can someone verify or discredit crocheting as a

> period art.  Thanks.

> Kael

        Respected friend:

        Sorry to have to say this (I'm fond of crochet myself, especially

crochet lace) but in 21+ years of trying, I've never found one single

piece of crochet from before the late 1700s, and not one single piece of

`documentation' for pre-17th cent. crochet that was not easily and quickly

discredited.

        There was a technique, in period, for making a sequence of small,

tight loops in a piece of thread; it was done with the fingers, and was

called `chaining'. It was used to make a thick piece of cord out of a thin

piece of thread. Chaining basically triples the thickness.

        There were a lot of things our ancestors could have done, if they had

thought of them, that they simply didn't do. At present, my best guess is

that crochet began with some late 18th cent. person fooling around with a

tambour hook.

        There's a book on knitting by an English Anglican archbishop just out,

a very fine work if (perhaps) a trifle over-cautious, which explains a

knitting ancestor-technique most crochetters ought to master easily.

        Have fun.

                              Yrs. in service

                              Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf, C.O.L. SCA

                              Honour Horne-Jaruk

 

 

From: rsmiley at lloyd.com (Richard Smiley)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: lace and beads

Date: 28 Jul 1994 10:42:15 -0700

Organization: Lloyd Interworking, Cameron Park, CA  95682

 

According to Anne Kraatz, Lace: History and Fashion, needlelace was

developed in the 1540's by the Venetians and bobbin lace was developed in

Flanders about the same time.  There are two types of period

needlelace:  Reticella (a type of drawn thread work) and Punto in Aria  

(needlework on a frame of threads).  The patterns were initially

geometric.  Later, they developed pictorial laces (late 16th, early 17th c.).

Some sources may quote a slightly different starting date, but all seem

to agree that lace started in the beginning of the 16th c.

 

Mistress Kaitlin MacPherson-OL

Principality of Cynagua, Kingdom of the West

 

 

From: kkozmins at mtholyoke.edu (Kim C Kozminski)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: lace and beads

Date: 29 Jul 1994 15:19:11 GMT

Organization: Mount Holyoke College

 

A good definition of lace is Pat Earnshaw's, who is a Brittish

authority.  She defines lace as "a slender fabric, made of thread,

incorperating holes as an intentional part of the design".

        With this definition, there are a lot of fabrics that were made

since ancient times that could be called lace.  Netting ( a small scale

version of Fishing nets) was made as a garment fabric since ancient Eygpt.

It shows up as a fashion fabric as hair-nets and head-piece coverings in

the 1400's.

        Macrame and knotted laces are also quite ancient, they appear to

middle-eastern in origin.  Macrame appears as a fashion lace in Spain in

fourteen and fifteen hundreds.

        Needle lace starts to emerge as cut-works on furnishing fabrics

as early as the thirteen hundreds.  Its evolution into full-blown

fashion-lace, independant of a supporting fabric is documentable at

around 1500 to 1530.

        Bobbin-lace (my favourite) probably exsisted as a "craft" lace

(that is a lace made by non-professionals for personal use) for a long

time before it's popularity as a fashion lace.  There is evidnce from the

inventories of the Sfortza family that a lace made with bobbins was a

fashion lace as early as 1480, but it's uncertain that this was a "lace"

as we know it, or a braid used for lacing.  There are two bobbin-lace

manuals that were published in 1559 and 1561, the earlier is Venetian,

the latter German.  The German book "Nuw Modelbuch" (my key board

doesn't do umlauts) states that bobbin-lace came to Germany 25 years

before from Venice.( This book, by the way, shows a few patterns for

beaded laces)          

        The two types of lace most Americans are familar with, crochet

and tatting, unfortunately fall into the catagory of "craft" lace, which

is wicked hard to document.  A few Victorian lace books date both of

these laces back to the 17th century convents, but give no hard evidence.

There is Something calle "Cheyne" lace in Elizabethian inventories, and a

Guild-Charter in the mid 1600's lists "laces made with a hook" as part of

their member's skills.  Although it's hard to document modern crochet

hooks it's pretty likely something like them did exsist (any one who has

them around knows how practical they are).  A term for a stitch in bobin

lace from the 1500's is "crochetage", or a stitch made with a hook. It's,

unlikely, however that that cheyne lace looked like modern crochet.

        Tatting is even more more difficult to trace.  There is a type of

late-period lace (1600's) called "parchment lace" that is made by doing

button-hole stitched over a parchment and wire core.  This lace looks

exactly like tatting until you take it apart.  There were also some laces

in The Victoria and Albert Museum in London that had tiny round elements

that even with my nose against the glass I couldn't tell they how

they were made. They looked very much like tatting.

        My feeling on tatting and Crochet is that they are great for making

imitations of the period laces, in the same way that a sewing machine is

great for imitating hand-sewing.  I encourage lace-makers not to give

them up because they are a better quality lace than most comercial

laces, and they give you the experience creating lace.  I also encourage

trying the pre-1600's laces, if only to have an idea of how they were

made.

        Wheew! this is probably more information than you wanted!  

        Check with your kingdom Arts and Science officer to see if there is

a chapter of "The Order of Arachne's Web" in your Kingdom.  They are an

SCA-wide lace-maker's guild, they could fill you in on how to make some

of the laces I mentioned.

        Sincerely,

               "The Old Spider Herself"

                       Mistress Roen Dentelliere de la Voile Rouge

-- Don't

think of it as aging, think of it as "Attaining Mythic Stature" kc/Roen

who is, herself

 

 

From: MS7539 at CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU (Stewart, Marie Alston         )

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Lace in period... yes there was alot of it

Date: 28 Jul 1994 15:28:10 GMT

Organization: APPALACHIAN STATE UNIVERSITY

 

        Greetings all --

 

        My Lady you have struck upon one of my dearest subjects...  The

        answer is yes! there was lace in period... lots of it...

 

        The thing that a follower of this fashion must remember is that

        there are -many- types of lace...  and that many of the most common

        laces today are right out...  

 

        First of all you need to define lace...  If you simply call it the

        product of knotting thread in a pattern, then you are very limited

 

        I choose to include open worked patterns in cloth that are created

        through pulling, drawing or cutting of threads...  If your definition

        varies then so will your opinion of my research...

 

        Much of the "Lace" found in period is the predecessor to modern lace

        and to some of the beautiful stuff that lies over the 1650 border...

 

        In period there are

        1.  woven boders  and open work seams and borders Ex. pillow beres in

        the V&A Museum ca. 1500?

 

        2. Pulled thread work to create a lacy pattern on borders  Ex.

        Carlos Crivelli's Demidoff Altar Piece  ca. 1476

 

        3.  Venitian hemstitch on a chalice veil creating a pulled work

        border  ca. 1450?

 

        4. Elaborate cutwork on collars and cuffs...  Ex. portrait of Claude,

        daughter of Herny II of France by Clouet ca. 1562.

 

        5.  Needle lace was getting started...  Ex. Portrait of the infanta

        Isabella by Coello ca. 1579.    Also called punto in aria...

 

        there are other types of lace in period...

        punto in aria, lacis,   reticello,  embroidered lace,   drawn lace

 

        A beginning bibliography should include

 

        "Lace" by Virginia A. Bath

        "Lace: a History"  by Santina M. Levy

        "English Needlework"  by A.F. Kendrick

        "English Domestic Needlework" by Therle Hughes

       

        As for other types of lace  I'm not sure....  I have yet to see

        proof of bobbin lace being period,  but I do have proof that some

        of the patterns used for the more recent art of bobbin lace were

        adapted from original pattterns of reticello and needle lace...  :)

 

        Kitted lace I have yet to see documented,  and same with crochted...

        Not saying that it wasn't done,  only admitting my lack of knowledge

        in those areas...  my particular area of interest is in the early

        forms of lace, as you can tell....  would love to hear more on the

        subject!... Always willing to broaden my education...

 

        Sincerely, Bridgette Kelly MacLean,  The MacLean of Atlantia

       

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: lace and beads

From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)

Date: Fri, 29 Jul 94 11:00:55 EDT

Summary: starter bits

 

dduperault at aol.com (DDuperault) writes:

 

> Howdy,

>      I know lace is "late" period. Anyone know when and where (and on

> what) lace was first used in europe?

>      What about beadwork? I suspect beading is a victorian invention.

> Anybody got any hard evidence to the contrary?

>

>                                                     Avwye

        Respected friend:

        1: what kind of lace? The Moorish conquest of Spain brought

macrame' lace to Europe, but it was not used on clothing that we know of-

(most probable exception being hairnets). That's 10th cent(?).

        Pulled-thread lace, the ancestor of all lace made with a needle,

was being used on altercloths by the 14th Cent. .

        Punto in Aria, true needlelace, starts with the LATE 15th Cent.

for clothing purposes.

        Bobbin or bone lace runs around the same.

        Sprang, a woven lace, goes back to the Bronze age, through Coptic

Egypt and Pagan Scandinavia, and foreward to present-day; surviving grave

finds are almost always purses or hairnets.

        2: What kind of beadwork?

        Using a bead loom to weave bead-bands I don't know the origen of,

but it seems unlikely to preceed late 17th century improvements in glass-bead

manufacturing techniques. Ask Joseph Alaric of the Baliset, Smoking Rocks

East Kingdom. He does it.

        Using beads to make or enhance a pattern sewn on to a cloth backing

goes as far back as archeology can trace, and in varying degrees and materials

Everybody Did It. For early, look at English ecclesiatical vestments. For

late, check out German pearlwork- WOW!.

        Talk to people you see wearing bead-embellished clothes, and find out

what their research shows. You'll get some blank stares ("I saw some in

_Ladyhawk_, y'no?") but you'll also get some good tips on where to learn more.

                              Good luck-

                              Honour/Una/Alizaunde

 

From: rsmiley at lloyd.com (Richard Smiley)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Lace in period... yes there was alot of it

Date: 1 Aug 1994 11:34:14 -0700

Organization: Lloyd Interworking, Cameron Park, CA  95682

 

Bobbin lace developed from the weaving of braids (passements) in Flanders

and Italy in the first quarter of the 16th c. (Anne Kraatz, Lace:  

History and Fashion).  Le Pompe, published in 1557, gives patterns for

bobbin laces.  The V & A also has many surviving examples.

 

Mistress Kaitlin MacPherson, OL

Kingdom of the West, Principality of Cynagua

 

 

From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Lace (was Re: Rec.crafts.sca)

Date: 23 Oct 1994 21:40:04 -0400

Organization: Public Access Internet & UNIX

 

"But Liz, the toads are so, so, _hairy_..." "        I know, I like hair.

Just get to the quote from sapalmer at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sharon A Palmer), ok?"

>

>In article <37jfnt$6ed at ankh.iia.org>, Leah Jolovich <jolovicl at iia.org> wrote:

>>Heather L. Garvey (garvey at poohbear.cig.mot.com) wrote:

>>

>>Thank you. With all that has been going on lately (long story) I was

>>beginning to think that such things were out of place. I have noticed

>>that not many of the craft posts and questions seem to get much

>

>When I have visited this bridge, I have found many discussion on many

>topics, with the mix varying from time to time. Someone has to

>start the threads, you know.

>

>As so I will bring up _my_ topic.  I have been trying to reproduce

>16th century Bobbin Lace.  I am using _Le Pompe_ a reproduction

>pattern book, and photos of period lace.  I am not getting the right

>look.  Threads of what seems to be the right thickness seem too stiff

>and tightly twisted.

>

>Who else is making lace?   What thread do you use? How has it turned

>out?   Have you found any good close-ups?  I have many pictures

>that show the pattern nicely, but not enough to see what the thread

>is like.

 

I am :-)

 

>The technical section in _Le Pompe_ is very poor and mostly

>doesnt even mention what size and kind of thread used. To anyone

>who hasn't seen this book, reproductions of one and part of a second

>period pattern book are bound with modern prickings and directions.

>The author of this section seems more familiar with later lace and

>works them much more "lacey" than the pictures of period laces that

>I have have found, which are quite sturdy looking.

 

I agree you should ignore the reconstructions in the back of Le Pompe.

        Payne's most egregious error I think is with the tape style laces -

she doesn't user *nearly* enough bobbins. The period examples I've seen of

this type of lace have a rich satiny surface which comes from working them

with a large number of fine threads. The tapes should be highly warp-faced,

not at all like cloth-stitch.

 

        In the figured laces, she uses half-stitch which is quite OOP. The

example on page 105 has several problems, the most egregious of which is

the lack of an edge to the tape. There should be an extra 2 pair travelling

in a braid along the edge outside the pinholes, the plan treatment she

gives makes the edge too fuzzy where the weaving pairs wrap around the pin.

       

        Her treatment of the tape laces is pretty good, but in this case I

think she uses too fine threads. The period examples I have plates of have

heavier threads woven very very tightly. It's hard to tell what the texture

would originally have been since the linen laces would have been washed and

starched from time to time. The softer texture and 'mushed together'

appearance likely resulted from repeated washing.

 

 

>Any other period pattern books available?  What books do you like?

>The best pictures I have come from a book in French with a name

>like _Three centuries of Lace_  owned by a friend. She copied all

>of the period pieces for me, but the book (and the friend) are

>now in England.  Neither one of us could read the text.  Apparently

>all or most of the pieces are in musuems in Bruge where she studied

>lacemaking.

 

>Renate knew a _lot_ about lacemaking, but many of the construction

>details of 16th century lace were new to her.

 

The absolutely best book on the subject is _Lace:_A_History_ by Santina

Levey published by the V&A in associaction with Maney. Unfortunately it is

only published in England and isn't cheap, but you may be able to get it on

inter library loan.

 

>I have promised to teach a class, and need to work some more of this

>out.

 

        Feel free to ask if you've got more questions. I'm also maintaining

a lace web server, http://arachne.nyc.ny.us/

--

Liz Stokes         |             

Ilaine de Cameron  |

ilaine at panix.com   |

 

 

From: alisounf at aol.com (AlisounF)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Lace (was Re: Rec.crafts.sca)

Date: 24 Oct 1994 20:02:03 -0400

 

In article <389ogn$425 at charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,

sapalmer at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sharon A Palmer) writes:

 

> Who else is making lace?   What thread do you use? How has it turned

> out?   Have you found any good close-ups?

 

I've been working on some metal lace that is influenced by Le Pompe. Had

to fiddle with and scale up the pricking to get the right balance with the

thread I am using (DMC Fil Or and Fil Argent). I'm fortunate that the

exact width of the finished lace was not critical, since it is easier to

adjust the pricking than find another thread. I used Patterns of Fashion

by Janet Arnold for close up photos of metal lace.

 

As far as linen thread goes, I have had good luck with Bockens. Bouc gives

me trouble with the twist and it is too rough. I have a small horde of

Bockens thread, so I don't have a current source (Yes, I'm the one who

bought out most the old World in Stitches supply when the founders retired

a few years ago). I use 60/2 and 80/2.

 

Alisoun Fortescue of Maplehurst

 

 

From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Lace (was Re: Rec.crafts.sca)

Date: 25 Oct 1994 07:54:53 -0400

Organization: Public Access Internet & UNIX

 

"But Liz, the toads are so, so, _hairy_..." "        I know, I like hair.

Just get to the quote from alisounf at aol.com (AlisounF), ok?"

>sapalmer at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sharon A Palmer) writes:

>

>> Who else is making lace?   What thread do you use?  How has it turned

>> out?   Have you found any good close-ups?

>

>I've been working on some metal lace that is influenced by Le Pompe. Had

>to fiddle with and scale up the pricking to get the right balance with the

>thread I am using (DMC Fil Or and Fil Argent). I'm fortunate that the

>exact width of the finished lace was not critical, since it is easier to

>adjust the pricking than find another thread. I used Patterns of Fashion

>by Janet Arnold for close up photos of metal lace.

 

Ah, new I left something out. I've gotten good results with those myself,

Unfortunately, they are rather flatter than round, but nothing beats the

real metal surface. The next time I start one of these, I'm going to

experiment with a double thread of this stuff on each bobbin. That looks

like what is happening in plate 354 of "Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe

Unlock'd" and plate 10 of Le Pompe.

 

-Liz

 

Liz Stokes         |        

Ilaine de Cameron  |

ilaine at panix.com   |

 

 

From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: crochet was Re: COSTUMING:

Date: 23 Oct 1994 22:13:16 -0400

Organization: Public Access Internet & UNIX

 

"But Liz, the toads are so, so, _hairy_..." "        I know, I like hair.

Just get to the quote from sapalmer at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sharon A Palmer), ok?"

> Leah Jolovich <jolovicl at iia.org> wrote:

>>

>>I would like to know if crocheted tights would be appropriate (given that

>>I don't have access to a knitting machine and consistency is not a term

>>to be used for my hand knitting). Does anyone have any comments on this?

>

>Crochet is said to be much later than our period. Check Rudd's _History

>of Knitting_  for a date.  I think that crocheted tights would give a

>_very_ different look.  Crochet is more textured than knitting.

 

        There was a form of lace, in it's barest infancy called 'cheyne

lace' in period. It consisted of crochet chain (yards and yeards of it)

looped back and stitched to itself to outline designs. The only photograph

I have (In Levey's Lace: A History) is, well, pretty ugly.

 

        Crochet as a fabric is way late and for all I can tell arose out of

crocheted lace rather than the other way around.

 

-Liz

--

Liz Stokes         |      

Ilaine de Cameron  |

ilaine at panix.com   |

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Lace Making

From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)

Date: Sun, 20 Nov 94 23:30:56 EST

 

connect at aol.com (CONNECT) writes:

 

> Does any good gentle know of a good starter book on lace making, or

> perhaps someone to learn from in the Cynnabar (Ann Arbor, MI) area?

>

> Also, I'm tempted to dabble in spinning; how hard is it to find a spinning

> wheel? Are spinning wheels terribly expensive?

>

> Pattie Rayl

 

        Respected friend:

        Look in the back of `threads' magazine for the address of _Lacis_,

a California firm that sells bobbin lace kits and books and more by mail-

order.

        For spinning, you'll probably find it both easier and cheaper to

start with a hand spindle. Good wheels start new in the $200-$300US range,

and used ones are very risky for a novice spinner.

        Good luck, and welcome to a most joyful obsession!

 

(Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk R.S.F.

Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA

It's rude to yell at other people for not obeying the rules if you aren't.

 

 

From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Lace Making

Date: 24 Nov 1994 07:18:16 -0500

Organization: Public Access Internet & UNIX

 

"But Liz, the toads are so, so, _hairy_..." "        I know, I like hair.

Just get to the quote from una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk), ok?"

>connect at aol.com (CONNECT) writes:

>

>> Does any good gentle know of a good starter book on lace making, or

>> perhaps someone to learn from in the Cynnabar (Ann Arbor, MI) area?

>>

>> Also, I'm tempted to dabble in spinning; how hard is it to find a spinning

>> wheel? Are spinning wheels terribly expensive?

>>

>> Yours in Service

>>

>> Pattie Rayl

>>

>      Respected friend:

>      Look in the back of `threads' magazine for the address of _Lacis_,

>a California firm that sells bobbin lace kits and books and more by mail-

>order.

 

oh ick. There are several lacemaker's shops in this country with better

supplies and much better prices. My suppliers list is appended. I've dealt

with Beggar's Lace, The Lacemaker and Holly van Sciver and been delighted

with all of them. Feel free to call on the phone - the proprieters are all

lacemakers and will be happy to chat with you and give suggestions. I've

never ordered from Lacis, I've always found the same or better cheaper

elsewhere though I confess I haven't ordered a new catalog from them in

many many years.

 

-Ilaine

 

Beggar's Lace

P.O. Box 17263

Denver, CO 80217

(303) 722-5557

 

The Lacemaker

7721 230th St. SW

Edmonds WA 98026

(206) 670 1644

 

Lacis

2982 Adeline St.

Berkeley CA 94703

(415) 843 7178

 

Van Sciver Bobbin Lace

130 Cascadilla Park,

Ithaca, NY 14850

(607) 277-0498

--

Liz Stokes         |              Hey! Where am I going?

Ilaine de Cameron  |

                   |    And what am I doing in this handbasket? 

ilaine at panix.com   |

 

 

From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Lace Making

Date: 26 Nov 1994 16:49:52 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

: What's more period for early Elizabethan lace? Bobbin or knitted lace?  I

: already know how to knit, so I'm leaning toward learning to knit lace,

: rather than to bobbin it. Also, tatting looks interesting.  I don't think

: I want to do the remove-the-threads kind of lace, since I'm not that

: patient. ;)

 

: Pattie Rayl

 

Of the two choices, definitely bobbin! Richard Rutt's "A History of Hand

Knitting" (a wonderful book on the subject, with more information on

period knitting than any other source I have seen) makes no mention of

knitted lace before the 19th century. I believe tatting dates to a

similar time.

 

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn

 

 

From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Lace Making

Date: 29 Nov 1994 08:24:45 -0500

Organization: Public Access Internet & UNIX

 

"But Liz, the toads are so, so, _hairy_..." "        I know, I like hair.

Just get to the quote from hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones), ok?"

>: What's more period for early Elizabethan lace? Bobbin or knitted lace?  I

>: already know how to knit, so I'm leaning toward learning to knit lace,

>: rather than to bobbin it. Also, tatting looks interesting.  I don't think

>: I want to do the remove-the-threads kind of lace, since I'm not that

>: patient. ;)

>

>: Pattie Rayl

>

>Of the two choices, definitely bobbin! Richard Rutt's "A History of Hand

>Knitting" (a wonderful book on the subject, with more information on

>period knitting than any other source I have seen) makes no mention of

>knitted lace before the 19th century. I believe tatting dates to a

>similar time.

 

        According to Santina Levey in "Lace A History", Knitted lace was

invented in the 18th century, but didn't become popular till the 19th, it

was introduced to Shetland at this time.

 

        The Eleanor of Toledo stockings are elaborate, but they aren't

lace.  Mistress Agnes has, however, knitted a pair of very fine 16th

century stockings in an openwork pattern as her masterwork, I remember her

saying she documented the stitch from a knitted example in the Metropolitan

Museum of Art.  My specialty is lace rather than knitting, so I will defer

to her research, I believe she lives in Atlantia these days.

 

        tatting has it's roots in the 16th century, but wasn't developed

into the form we know it till the 19th century.

 

-Ilaine

--

Liz Stokes         |              Hey! Where am I going?

Ilaine de Cameron  |

                   |    And what am I doing in this handbasket? 

ilaine at panix.com   |

 

 

From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Lace Making

Date: 29 Nov 1994 08:31:03 -0500

Organization: Public Access Internet & UNIX

 

"But Liz, the toads are so, so, _hairy_..." "        I know, I like hair.

Just get to the quote from connect at aol.com (CONNECT), ok?"

>What's more period for early Elizabethan lace? Bobbin or knitted lace?  I

>already know how to knit, so I'm leaning toward learning to knit lace,

>rather than to bobbin it. Also, tatting looks interesting.  I don't think

>I want to do the remove-the-threads kind of lace, since I'm not that

>patient. ;)

 

        Bobbin definitely, it's the only correct way to go barring

needlelace which while lovely is about an order of magnitude slower to

work.

        Tatted lace as we know it is way OOP, but certain techniques can

turn out something that *looks* like a good needlelace edging, as can

crochet.  As long as you understand what you are doing is faking it rather

than turning out a period product, go for it. On the other hand, bobbin

lace is *much* cooler to take with you to events, and fabulous for demos

;^)

 

-Ilaine

--

Liz Stokes         |              Hey! Where am I going?

Ilaine de Cameron  |

                   |    And what am I doing in this handbasket? 

ilaine at panix.com   |

 

 

From: muir at med.unc.edu (Anne Muir Bradburn)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: lace

Date: 1 Dec 1994 13:37:18 GMT

Organization: UNC-CH School of Medicine

Keywords: Lace

 

For basic books try:

 

The Torchon Lace Workbook by Bridget M. Cook ISBN 0-312-02119-4

 

It's modern Torchon, but a good basic beginning.  The 16th century book to

get is Le Pompe, a reproduction of a 16th century pattern book by Santina

M. Levey and Patricia C. Payne ISBN 0-903585-16-2.  It has some basic

instruction in the back.

 

The Torchon book you can order through any bookstore, but I had trouble

doing this with Le Pompe.  I know some of the lace mail order people carry

it like Beggar's Lace in Colorado and Nicole's Eclectica in Waynesboro, Va.

 

Good luck!  Lacing is sooo much fun!

 

Francesca la Curiosa

 

 

From: sapalmer at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sharon A Palmer)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Lace Making

Date: 8 Dec 1994 14:21:58 GMT

Organization: The Ohio State University

 

In article <Air=bje00VBAA24UVA at andrew.cmu.edu>,

Carrie A Schutrick  <cs82+ at andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:

>  While we're on the subject, can someone reccommend a good basic book

>on bobbin lace, preferably relatively inexpensive? The only ones I can

>find presume some basic knowledge; they're mostly the

>"pattern-collection" type rather than the "here's how" type...

>

>Carrie Schutrick                                   Cailfind ingen Grainne

 

Greetings Cailfind

 

I liked _The Torchon Lace Workbook_ Bridget Cook, St. Martins Press, 1988,

ISBN 0-312-02119-4 $14.95, for its clear drawings and sample pieces.

The patterns aren't so good and Torchon isn't period anyway, but it

will show you the basic stitches, including braids which are very early.

Maybe try getting it from your library, rather than buying it.

 

I and others on the net are willing to try to help with any questions.

I started from this book, although I took some lessons later.

Good luck and have fun,

 

Ranvaig

 

 

From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Lace Making

Date: 8 Dec 1994 11:56:31 -0500

Organization: Public Access Internet & UNIX

 

"But Liz, the toads are so, so, _hairy_..." "        I know, I like hair.

Just get to the quote from sapalmer at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sharon A Palmer), ok?"

>In article <Air=bje00VBAA24UVA at andrew.cmu.edu>,

>Carrie A Schutrick  <cs82+ at andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:

>>  While we're on the subject, can someone reccommend a good basic book

>>on bobbin lace, preferably relatively inexpensive? The only ones I can

>>find presume some basic knowledge; they're mostly the

>>"pattern-collection" type rather than the "here's how" type...

>>

>>Carrie Schutrick                                   Cailfind ingen Grainne

>

>Greetings Cailfind

>

>I liked _The Torchon Lace Workbook_ Bridget Cook, St. Martins Press, 1988,

>ISBN 0-312-02119-4 $14.95, for its clear drawings and sample pieces.

>The patterns aren't so good and Torchon isn't period anyway, but it

>will show you the basic stitches, including braids which are very early.

>Maybe try getting it from your library, rather than buying it.

 

        Torchon certainly is period, it just wasn't as popular as the braid

styles which imitated needlelace. It seems to have been used more in

Germany and Italy than England and France. There is a surviving period

bobbin lace pattern book from Germany - the Modelbuch - which is mostly

Torchon patterns. There are also a few examples of Torchon lace in period

portraits in Santina Levey's book _Lace_a_History_, but they are of course

far outnumbered by the braid and tape styles.

 

-Ilaine

--

Liz Stokes         |              Hey! Where am I going?

Ilaine de Cameron  |

                   |    And what am I doing in this handbasket? 

ilaine at panix.com   |

 

 

From: sapalmer at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sharon A Palmer)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: embroidery

Date: 15 Dec 1994 19:19:57 GMT

Organization: The Ohio State University

 

Joe Cook <joe at imr.usa.com> wrote:

>Greetings from Signore Giuseppe da Borgia!

>

>    As an embroidery apprentice, I am always on the lookout for news

>sources of documentation.  In particular, I am interested in Italian

>Renaissance, French (12th century and Renaissance) and early English.

> Is there anything interesting out there?

 

I have been reading Santina Levey _Lace: A History_ ISBN 0-901286-X.

As the title says this is a lace history book, but there is a lot

of embroidery also.  Including whitework, cutwork, lacis, and reticella.

There are also good costuming references for the 16th century.

I have really been enjoying this book.  I have it from ILL, but

I will have to try and get a copy for myself.

 

Ranvaig

 

 

From: kellyo at sky.net (Kelly Ohlhausen)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: bobbin lace?

Date: 20 Jan 1996 07:02:01 GMT

 

peasent123 at aol.com (Peasent123) says:

>i have recently been given the chance to learn the art of bobbin lace

>making.  i have researched its origins to the early 15th century.  my

>teacher told me that someone in your society may be involved in bobbin

>lace making.  after reading your faq it seems to be period, although i

>have read some postings that may debate this.  can anyone out there clear

>things up for me.  also, if it is considered "period" i would love to hear

>from anyone who is interested in bobbin lace making. i would also like to

>hear from anyone who can tell me of a good book(s)  to research this topic

>more.

>sara

 

I missed the postings you mention so I apologize if I'm repeating someone

else.  Bobbin lace is definitely period if period is pre-1600.  However,

not all styles of bobbin lace are period.  One of the best sources of

period patterns is a set of 4 books by Cesare Vecellio (ca. 1521-1601).  

The version I have is "Pattern Book of Renaissance Lace" and is described

as "A Reprint of the 1617 Edition of the 'Corona delle Nobili et Virtuose

Donne' by Cesare Vecellio.  The original Italian prefaces and the English

translations are included.  Many of the patterns are quite complex and

they are not limited to bobbin lace.  The patterns are wood cut

illustrations and not the pin-prick patterns you are probably used to

seeing.  Another book that I like is "History of Lace" by Mrs. Bury Palliser.

Most of what she discusses is not period for the SCA but the book has a

good description of lace as it evolved in different areas. Most of the

books I've seen discuss lace after 1600.

 

Have you heard of IOLA?  It's an international organization for people

interested in lace.  One of their publications lists the local groups and

how they may be contacted.  I believe you can also get hard-to-find books

>from  them.  There are museums, mostly in Europe, dedicated to lace and

they may be able to help.  If you would like more information, just drop

me a line.

 

Kelly Ohlhausen

 

 

Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 20:04:06 -0700

From: Chris & Denise Smith <wings at zianet.com>

To: markh at risc.sps.mot.com

Subject: Tatting

 

I was looking for info on the net about tatting when I found your

collection of "messages". I'm not sure where these messages came from or

who sees your site but Dover publications publishes tons of books on a

great number of subjects including lace making (ie tatting, bobbin lace

and many, many others). They also publish books on crafts, math,

science, music, paper dolls, clip art.... just to name a few. I buy alot

of thier stuff. Dover Publications, Inc., 31 East 2nd Street, Mineola,

NY 11501  for lacemaking write to Dept. 23. KC Publishing, Inc. also has

a good book out called Tatting Patterns, The Classic Collection, by the

staff of Workbasket Magazine.

 

 

Subject: BG - Crochet?? Period??

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 98 14:17:35 MST

From: Aceia at aol.com

To: bryn-gwlad at Ansteorra.ORG

 

I found this article on the Internet at the following Web address...

http://www.arachne.com

I found it to be interesting, and thought I would pass it on...

-Robin

 

Is Crochet Period for the SCA?

A very early form ofcroceted lace is late period (second half of the 16th

century) but I have no evidence for crocheted clothing.

From Lace: a History, Santina M. Levey published in 1983 by the Victoria &

Albert Museum inn association with W. S. Maney & Son. Ltd. p.92:

 

"Yet another development of the 1840's was the widespread adoption of crochet,

both in Ireland and elsewhere. The origins of this technique are obscure but

it seems probable that it developed in France during the 17th century. Hooked

needles were used in both the passementerie and lace industries and, in

France, the 'stitch' used to link the pieces of a part of lace was known as a

'crochetage'. The development of this stitch into an independant technique is

suggested by the Letters Patent which were granted to the French Mercers in

1653 and which listed among their goods all forms of lace and braid, including

'cordons facon de broderie, enriches en jolives qui se faconnent a l'escuille,

aux des doights, au crochet, et au fuseau'. The new technique was probably

stimulated by the vogue, during the second half of the seventeenth century,

for gimp and all froms of metal lace and passementerie. There are a number of

French references to crochet from this period and they suggest theat the term

was used both for the hooked needle and for a product. [...] 'Chain lace'

appears to have been the equivalent English term for the French chainettes de

crochet, although the term probably referred originally to an open cord or

braid. The earliest references date from the mid-sixteenth century; the Earl

of Leicster had beds 'garneshed with a chaine lace of goulde and silver-

copper', and it also featured in the Wardrobe Accounts of Queen Elizabeth.

 

The appearance of late seventeenth-century lace is perhaps suggested by the

little piece in figure 392. This border has a rather clumsy design which none

the less relates to better quality laces of the late seventeenth century and its

chained structure can only have been formed with a hooked needle in the

manner of crochet."

 

Whew, I'm personally a little confused, since she dates the invention of

crochet to the 17th century, then later says that the earliest reference is

from the 16th century. Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd by Janet Arnold

quotes one of those wardrobe accounts Santina Levey mentions: "Enbrauderinge

of a paire of Sleves for a Wastcoat of fyne lynnen Clothe wrought allover with

a worke of white Cheyne silke lace powdered full of stitches for workemanshipp

therof xls. Item for v oz of Cheyne lace and silke spente upon the same

sleves at iijs iiijd thounce...." p. 145

 

The photograph mentioned in the Levy quote has the lines of the design all

done in chain stitch, with no solid areas at all. It looks a little like the

16th century braided bobbin laces (not the tape ones) only wider, and with

the more realistic rather than geometric design that the technique allows.

 

I had been thinking of doing a piece for Pike or TI giving crochet directions

for imitating 16th century bobbin laces for people who want the look and don't

care about total authenticity. Now I am beginning to think that this is

exactly the thing described here and it's actually correct (eerie huh?). I'm

confused though, by the description 'powdered full of stitches'. I can't think

of anything in the one photo I have that would fit that description. If you

come across something - please let me know.

 

Liz (ilaine at arachne.com)

 

 

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:30:27 PDT

From: "Jennifer McNitt" <jenmcnitt at excite.com>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Punto in aria

 

I have just begun to learn this myself, but here are some resources I

received off of the sca lace mailing list (e-mail me if you would like to be

subscribed to this mailing list) that may help you.

 

Variety: Italian Cut work and Filet Lace

The Needle-made lace of Reticella by Jules and Kaethe Kliot

(Instructions, pictures of lace, pictures of period portraits with lace and

*pages and pages of lace patterns*!!!! The patterns alone make this one

great.)

 

Lace, Bookking International

The Story of Italian Needlelace by Vima deMarchi Micheli

 

Needlelace in Photographs by Cynthia Voysey

 

Punto Tagliato Lace by Nenia Lovesey

 

Needle-made Laces and Net Embroideries by Doris Campbell Preston

 

Cut-Work Embroidery by Oenone Cave

 

Needle Lace & Needleweaving by Jill Nordfors

 

Ruskin Lace & Linen Work by Elizabeth Prickett

 

Italian Lace Designs by Elisa Ricci

 

Pictorial Archive of Lace Designs by Carol Belanger Grafton

 

Needle-made Laces by Pat Earnshaw

 

Gwen

 

 

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:07:04 -0500

From: Roberta R Comstock <froggestow at juno.com>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Punto in aria

 

On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:58:52 +0200 Anna Jartin

<anna.jartin at goteborg.utfors.se> writes:

 

>I would be very happy if there's someone who know anything of the

>basics of punto in aria.

>

>Lady Uta

 

'Punto in aria' means 'stitched in air'.  It refers to needle-made lace

without a ground fabric.   It is described in a number of lace and

needlework books (such as Theresa de Dillmont's 'Encyclopedia of

Needlework').

 

Historically it derives from cutwork, specifically to the filling in of

large holes cut in a ground clots or the empty squares at the corners of

drawn thread work.  Reticilla and Teneriffe (Sol lace) are examples.

 

Hertha

 

 

Subject: Re: ANST - Bobbin Lace

Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 09:58:58 -0700 (PDT)

From: Delphina Champeaux <lady_rapier at yahoo.com>

To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org

 

--- My Lady Comtesse <my_lady_comtesse at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Does anybody know of a bobbin lace supply in Dallas

> or surrounding area?

>

> Taya Fitzphilip

 

No I don't know of any suppliers that are in the state

even.  If you find any please let me know.  The best

place I've found is Vanscriver's Bobbin Lace (See link

below).  Holly is great.  Just email her what you want

(or call) then send a check and she expresses the

stuff to you.

 

http://www.vansciverbobbinlace.com/

 

Let me know if you want more information and I'll send

it to you off list.

 

Delphina

Stargate

 

 

From: Martha Schreffler <mot at swbell.net>

Date: February 15, 2009 5:42:05 PM CST

To: bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: [Bryn-gwlad] Old Italian Lace by Elisa Ricci available on-line

 

Downloadable pdfs of two volumes on Italian lace - wow - Amata

 

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~spok/metabook/oilace.html

 

<the end>



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