honey-msg – 1/21/08
Period use of honey. Honey sources.
NOTE: See also the files: sugar-msg, bees-msg, mead-msg, meadery-list-msg,
candy-msg, desserts-msg, Sugarplums-art, Roses-a-Sugar-art, bees-Markham-art, Beekeeping-AS-art.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: Philip E Cutone <flip+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:51:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SC - Honey vrs sugar
"Sue Wensel" <swensel at brandegee.lm.com> writes:
> While honey is a popular SCA-alternate for sugar in recipes, I am
> beginning to doubt how much it really was used in period recipes.
i sound like i'm beating a dead horse, "In the Domestroi...." nearly
every recipe which calls for sweetening, specifies honey. Indeed, i
cannot find a place where sugar is used at all! I cannot
say if this was the translator's (Carolyn Pouncy) choice, or
original. I imagine that it would depend on region. I don't know the
specifics for sugar cane, but it seems as though it is mostly grown in
humid zone 8 or warmer. (tropical climate)
here is what the online encyclopedia has to say about it:
> It is believed that sugarcane culture began in New Guinea and
> then gradually spread throughout the South Pacific, Southeast
> Asia, and India. Thereafter it spread to China and to the
> ancient Arab world, but sugar remained a scarce luxury in Europe.
> In the 15th and 16th centuries, however, European explorers and
> colonizers of the Caribbean and South American regions brought
> sugarcane cuttings with them, and once planted, the cuttings
> thrived in the warm, moist climate and productive soil. By the
> year 1600, sugar production in the subtropical and tropical
> Americas had become the world's largest and most lucrative
> industry.
In service,
flip
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 16:21:12 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: SC - Sugar, onions...
> From: Tara Sersen <ladycharissa at geocities.com>
>
> OK, I have some questions for everyone. The first is to settle a
> discussion a friend and I had a few weeks ago. We were discussing the
> ingredient sugar in period recipies. It occured to us that the first
> time we can recall hearing about sugar cane is in the New World,
> particularly in terms of rum production. Neither of us could think of
> any period reference for molassas or rum. So, we figured that the sugar
> being called for might be beet sugar. If we're right, then very late
> period might have used cane sugar, but not earlier periods. Does anyone
> know what is right?
Very early period practice in Europe appears to indicate that honey was
almost exclusively used for sweetening foods. Cane sugar was known, but
rather rare in Europe, and would more or less have come under the
heading of a pharmaceutical. Around the time of the first Crusade, the
Crusaders returned to Europe with a taste for many of the foods that we
now associate with medieval European cooking. As a result, things like
sugar in varying states of processing began to appear in European
markets. Still quite expensive, and used accordingly, through most of
period. Sugar cane as a commercial product in its own right, and locally
produced European sugar (in Cyprus, for instance), appear more or less
on a very small scale in late period. One of the reasons things like
molasses and rum don't seem to appear in period recipes is simply that
the production of sugar was still being controlled by the people native
to the areas where sugar cane grows. Molasses and rum used by Europeans
are largely a function of Europeans actually growing and processing
sugar, which is more or less a function of colonialism, which doesn't
really occur within period.
Beet sugar is the result of a process developed in the early 19th
century, IIRC.
Adamantius
Crown Province of Ostgardr, East Kingdom
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 05:45:42 EDT
From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Flavored honey
Galengale or ginger honey UMMMMM done that.. wunnerful! First heard of
Galengale honey from the writings of Hildegard of Bingen (sp?) so the
technique was KNOWN in period.. of course, since we're talking about somebody
who IMO described bacteria and the very (probable) form of the Universe in the
12th century... maybe I'm getting ahead of myself...<g>.
Corwyn
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 00:27:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Laura C Minnick <lainie at gladstone.uoregon.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - bewined honey? honey with anise? (fwd)
Someone asked about the honey- and this was the reply. Have fun!
'Lainie
- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 21:44:00 -0700
From: Vesta <vesta at internetcds.com>
To: Laura C Minnick <lainie at gladstone.uoregon.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - bewined honey? honey with anise? (fwd)
Laura C Minnick wrote:
> Domina Vesta Antonia Aurelia when asked about her Libum loaves
> recipe, gave it. One of her comments was:
> > I served it with bewined honey, and honey with anise.
>
> Anyone know what "bewined" honey is? Is this honey with anise,
> honey that you soak anise seed? star anise? in for awhile? Or
> something bought already flavored?
Bewined honey: Honey with wine.
One quart honey. Add 1 cup dry white wine. Mix 'til well blended.
Serve.
Honey with anise.
One quart honey. 2 Tablespoons anise. Crush anise. Heat over low
flame until honey smells strongly of anise. Serve.
I pulled these combinations out of my.....ear. They have no basis in
Apicius, other than being ingredients available to the needy Roman
cook....
Domina Vesta Antonia Aurelia vesta at internetcds.com
An Tir -- Summits -- Cavernsgate
From: Norsefolk at egroups.com
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:23:26 EDT
From: beiskaldi at aol.com
Subject: Re: Mead flavors
shetler at home.com writes:
> Here is a website for a variety of flavored honeys
> that you might enjoy as well. http://www.castlemark-honey.com/
FWIW, I know the owners of castlemark honey. The honeys are not 'flavored'
per se, but rather made from various pollens, ie clover, alfalfa, wildflower,
heather, sourwood (don't go ick till youve tried it) & various other
plants. Good stuff, & decent prices.
thyra
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:35:19 -0500
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: "mk-cooks at midrealm.org" <mk-cooks at midrealm.org>,
"sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Honey reference source
While looking for nougat recipes, I came across this interesting site on
honey.
http://www.fao.org/docrep/w0076e/w0076e00.htm
It contains the text of an FAO document on honey
products and contains modern recipes for Liquid honey,
Creamed honey, Comb honey, Mead, Honey beer,
Honey liqueurs, Honey spreads, Honey with
fruits and nuts, Honey with pollen and propolis,
Honey paste for dressing wounds, Sugar substitution,
Fruit marmalade, Honey jelly, Syrups, Rose honey,
Caramels, Nougat and torrone, Honey gums, Gingerbread
and Marzipan.
Johnna Holloway Johnnae llyn Lewis
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:03:15 -0800
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cioccolato di Modica
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Stefan li Rous wrote:
> Gianotta asked:
>> I'm engaged in a spirited, uh, debate with someone on another list
>> about Sicilian gastronomy. In researching my rebuttal I came across
>> mentions of chocolate made in Modica, Sicily. There, chocolate is made
>> like the Aztecs did it; cacao beans ground against stone, mixed with
>> sugar (of course the Aztecs would have used honey)
>
> But since the honey bee is a European import, any honey the Aztecs
> would have used would have been from a different insect.
Well, according to Sophie Coe in "America's First Cuisines", the
Mayas actually created hives for the indigenous American bees. They
are not the honey bees of Europe, but they do make honey.
The book is eluding me for the moment... I can quote more when i locate
it.
Anahita
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:03:57 -0800
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Honey in Meso-America
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
OK, i found where the Sophie D. Coe book, "America's First Cuisines",
was hiding...
She notes, on p. 89 of the chapter titled "Aztec Ingredients" that
Aztec warehouses received annually 2,200 pots of bee's honey.
On p. 116, of the chapter "Aztec Cooks and Menus", Coe notes that in
the writings of Sahagun are mentioned honey tamales, bee tamales, and
(p. 117) tortillas made with honey. Hernandez mentions among the
nixtamalized maize gruels, which were drunk as nourishing beverages,
one with 1/10th part maguey syrup called nequatolli, and one with
chili and honey called nechillatolli. An atolli of red amaranth
rather than maize, with honey was hoauhatolli.
In the chapter "The Maya and the Explorers", on pp. 125-126
"One thing the expedition of Francisco Hernandez de Cordoba noticed
on the island of Cozumel, and later in Yucatan, may still be seen in
those places today by the visitor. It was, and is, an excellent place
for honey production. Today the honey is produced by the European
honey bee (Apis mellifera) , but prior to its introduction there were
plenty of indigenous bees (Melipona sp., Trigona sp.) to do the job.
Bee yards with thousands of hives are described by early travelers.
Hernandez de Cordoba was said to have seen many wooden hives and to
have been brought calabashes full of white and excellent honey. Honey
was one of the principal products of the country and along with
locally produced cotton cloth was traded far and wide in Mesoamerica.
Among the Maya it was used to sweeten some of the maize drinks, the
posolli and atolli [i mentioned in a previous post], and to make an
exceedingly important alcoholic ritual beverage, balche'. The fact
that a good part of one of the four surviving Maya books, the Madrid
Codex, is concerned with bees and beekeeping underscores their
importance.
"Was this honey used to make preserves or boiled sugar goods? We know
that watery honey was cooked to make it more storeable, so that
combinations like boiled honey and squash seeds or boiled honey and
toasted maize might be pre-Columbian..."
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:15:47 -0400
From: "jehan.yves" <jehan.yves at signofthetiger.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Feast Challanges/Disaster for Stefan (really
long)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Honey usually weighs around 12 1/2 pounds per gallon (varies by
variety, moisture content, purity) and there are 16 cups in a gallon,
so 12 ozs. per cup is a reasonable number to work with.
JehanYves
> I found a website that says the weight of 1 cup of honey is
> approximately 12 oz. If that is correct, than I would have needed 7
> of the 5lb jugs instead of the 3+ Serena was able to come up with on
> site. Or... less than half of what she actually needed!
>
> Aoghann
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 05:03:55 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Playing with cheesecake...
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
On Apr 29, 2006, at 1:25 AM, randel lee wrote:
> i am curious as to the ratio of honey as compared to a cup of sugar,
You might look here for info...
http://www.nhb.org/foodtech/sub.html
Adamantius
Date: Sat, 06 May 2006 14:24:32 -0500
From: LRA <LRA at olpdsl.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Diabetes and Honey - substitute or not?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
I have found a fake honey. It tastes like the real stuff, looks like,
cooks like, measures like and dissolves like the real thing. It is made
by MARKET PANTRY and called Imitation Honey. I have been able to find
the product at only Super Wal-Mart and Super Target stores (at least in
my area, Tulsa, OK). And it is more expensive than real honey.
The package says "sugar free, not a low calorie food". It has 0 grams of
sugar, but is made with sugar alcohols. Some people have problems with
sugar alcohols.
I'm not a diabetic, but I try to stay on a low carb life-style.
I'd be interested to find out if others have found other products of
this nature.
Lynn the Inquisitive
Ysabeau wrote:
> I've been asked/volunteered to prepare a dinner at a local non-feast event
> for the crown and other visiting nobles. There isn't a kitchen on site so I
> was looking at prepare ahead recipes. While it isn't necessarily period,
> there is a great recipe for a lamb with honey and apricots tagine in the
> latest Cooking Light magazine. Since our current crown has a North
> African/Muslim Spain (not really sure which) persona, I thought I'd try a
> tagine as one of the dishes. However, they also request a diabetic friendly
> diet...so what do I do about honey? I don't think Splenda makes a good
> substitute so any other ideas? How does honey fit into the diabetic diet?
> Should I just try something else?
>
> Ysabeau
From: Magister Galenus Ockhamnesis <galen at chirurgeon.org>
Date: January 22, 2007 6:40:15 PM CST
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Honey for Brewers
I have purchased some from
<http://www.eBeeHoney.com>www.eBeeHoney.com. You can order the
crystallized honey somewhat cheaper and it still works fine for brewing.
Galen
> I have mundane friend who brews mead and ale.
> Currently he just buys 2 pound jars of honey from the grocery store.
> Where are better locations or dealers to buy honey
> in larger quantities? I'm in Elfsea, so someplace in
> the Central region or on the Internet would be best.
> Lady Hanna
From: Pug Bainter <pug at pug.net>
Date: January 23, 2007 6:41:10 AM CST
To: "'Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.'" <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Honey for Brewers
As others have responded publicly since this is something many are
interested in, I'm going to do the same.
Bulk honey is actually fairly easy to come by if you know where to look.
Many home brew supply stores carry it. Sam's and Costo usually have
the ~4-5 lb containers at a reasonable price.
I'm not sure what specialty stores you have around you, but in Austin we can
pick up bulk honey, including by the 5 gallon bucket if you ask, at places
like Sun Harvest, Wholefoods and Central Market.
As someone pointed out, www.ebeehoney.com has decent prices at $135 per 5
gallon bucket plus $36 for shipping. That is about $2.35 a pound.
While doing a Google search (which is typically what I do when comparing
pricing) I found the following as well:
http://www.alhoney.com/prod01.htm
Jackson Apiaries - $99 per 5 gallon plus $43 in shipping (possibly
better if more than one 5 gallon order)
Dutch Gold Honey - $76 to $90 per 5 gallon but they don't list their
shipping & handling on line
I've bought from Good Flow Honey before with very good pricing, but they are
local to me so they delivered it straight to my house without shipping
costs. http://www.goodflowhoney.com
Being in Elfsea, you might want to try Burleson's in Waxahachie to see if
they have bulk you can pick up. They even are listed as selling it by the
tanker, but at 3750 gallons, I think that a little much for most people.
http://www.burlesons-honey.com
If you are looking specifically at local sources, you can try the
National Honey Board locator service at:
I hope that helps folks.
Ciao,
Pug
From: Alden Drake <alden_drake at sbcglobal.net>
Date: January 30, 2007 12:58:29 PM CST
To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Ansteorra] Dutch Gold Honey
I've had pretty good results from ordering from Dutch Gold Honey. I
particularly like their Buckwheat Honey. The last time I ordered
them, they gave me contact information for a distributor West of the
Mississippi - they have an extra charge on their product for shipping
West of the Mississippi. It took me a while to find the contact info
since my office recently relocated, but here it is:
Clint Walker
Rogers, TX
254-983-2337
I haven't ordered from him yet to confirm prices, but thought y'all
might appreciate a honey source in TX. :)
Cheers,
Alden Drake
<<< Egads! 2lb and 5 lb bottles. Forget that. I get mine from Dutch Gold Honey.
They sell in bulk. I just got 63 lbs of orange blossom honey for $95,
including shipping. They're very reasonable on shipping, they just use UPS.
The honey stays under the 70lb price increase. They also have a really nice
selection, and they're FAST. Got mine in two days. However, make sure you
follow up internet orders with a phone call. My last order got stuck on
their server, and after a few weeks of not getting my stuff, I called them
and found out the problem. Of course, you could just call and order over the
phone. The staff are quite friendly and helpful.
Faelan >>>
<the end>