coopering-msg – 5/26/11
Making and maintaining wooden barrels, casks and kegs. Period barrels, casks and kegs. Sources.
NOTE: See also the files: wood-bending-msg, wood-msg, tools-msg, woodworking-msg, commerce-msg, wine-msg, beer-msg.
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From: corliss at hal.PHysics.wayne.EDU (David J. Corliss)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Kegs
Date: 31 May 1994 14:18:47 -0400
(....OK, now you've pushed one of my buttons, and I just have to respond....)
hedonisim at aol.com writes:
> Last thing I want at an event is (a) beer keg out in the middle of our
> Medievel campsite; keep it in back where we all can't see it.
Beer kegs?? What's wrong with beer kegs??
Just get some white oak, a little green, and cut planks about two inches wide
and half an inch thick. Miter the ends to a 45 degree angle. Plane the sides of
each plank to give a small angle to each. Arange the planks around copper hoops
so they fit together. Check the fit of each joint so it is tight; fine tune the
fit with a plane where necesary (Far easier said than done: using a jig to
plane the planks the same helps and practice makes perfect). Cut the last plank
so that it is just a bit too big to fit and pound it in with a mallet: the
copper will stretch and tightly close the keg all around. (Do _not_ try this
with _steel_ hoops, like modern barrels. Modern barrels are made by machine:
their staves are identical and, so, interchangable. Hand made staves will not
work with (essentially) non-stretching steel hoops.)
Make boards for the ends, chamfer the edges to fit the ends of the staves, and
nail on the bottom. Remember never to fill a dry barrel with anything you want
to store: fill it with water first. This will make the wood swell and close
tiny gaps. A barrel may leak a little at first but soon become sound, if the
only gaps are very small ones. Empty the keg, fill with beer, and nail down
the lid.
Some people like to do this with beech instead of white oak, as it imparts a
slight flavor to the beer that they prefer. I like strong tasting beers, so the
mild quality of beech does not come through. It works best for pilsners. _Never_
use _Red_ oak: it is naturally porous and will always leak.
Why don't more people do this?? It is a lttle tricky and takes practice, but so
is making good chests and musical instruments.
Beorthwine of Grafham Wood
From: "David R.Watson" <crossbow at moontower>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Oak Barrel
Date: 29 Sep 1995 14:40:36 GMT
Organization: New World Arbalest
Regarding your oak barrel. Cooperage (the art of making stave-built
vessels) has two large divisions, wet and dry coopering. Wet coopering
is for holding liquids. Wet coopered containers should never leak very
much, even when they've been left empty for some time. Of course a
really old barrel might have deteriorated, or the wood shrunk
substantially. Most of the cooperage you see for sale today is dry
cooperage, it's sort of the period cardboard box. It is designed to
hold goods, keep out the rats and the rain, but will not hold water at
all. You may have a dry-coopered barrel. The joints just don't fit as
tightly. Some dry-coopered pieces are sold with a waterproof coating:
anything from wax through tar, to epoxy. They'll hold water fine, if
you can live with strange taste of the beverage, flakex of wax, or what
have you.
Iolo crossbow at moontower.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: rmcateer at chat.carleton.ca (Richard McAteer)
Subject: Re: Oak Barrel
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 19:07:11 GMT
I have to say that I have been brewing for a while, and do not fear,
my barrels leak when they have been sitting for a while. Contrary to
the previous post on wet / dry barrels, a wet barrel will leak quite a
bit when dry. It takes about 4 days to a week to swell my 15 gallon
barrel up to tightness, but then I can actually carbonate a beer in
it. I brewed a fifteen gallon batch of dark ale last year for one of
the local events. Your barrel is small enough to leave on its side in
a bathtub for several days, filled with water. That is how I would
swell it.
Richard McAteer | "This is grain, which any fool can eat but for
Carleton University | which the Lord intended a more divine means of
Zymurgist | consumption. Let us give praise to our maker
Math / Philosophy | and glory to his bounty by learning about
SCAdian (Caldrithig) | ... beer" - Friar Tuck, (RHPoT)
Email address: rmcateer at chat.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: scott_mills at hp-loveland-om10.om.hp.com (Scott Mills)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Oak Barrel
Date: 3 Oct 1995 16:31:32 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Loveland, CO
In article <812399447snz at vonkopke.demon.co.uk>, Garick at vonkopke.demon.co.uk
says...
>
>Thanks folks. After considerable swelling, the barrel is now water tight.
>Now to the important question, with what shall I fill it?
>--
>Viscount Sir Garick von Kopke
If your cask is watertight now almost anything will do. Beer, Mead, Wine, you
name it. I would suggest you fill it with whatever you and your household are
most likely to drink and you can find in good supply.
Before putting anything in your cask make sure it is good and clean. Go to
your local homebrew store and buy a substance called BarroKleen and let it set
for a while full of this stuff.
After sitting for a while with the Barroclean, empty about three-quarters of
the cleaning solution out and drop in a handfull of nuts, bolts, and other
assorted small hardware. Then put in the bung and pick the thing up and shake
it until your arms give out. You don't know what was in that cask last time
it was used or what type of gunk might be adhering to the inside. After
cleaning with the Barroclean you might want to use a a sanitizing solution
such as TSP or some other Idophor cleaner to satitize since it has been
sitting for a long while. After all this rinse it a couple of times and you
are ready to go.
Once you have you cask in a usable condition NEVER leave it empty. Always
keep it full of water with a little citric acid in it. The water will keep
the cask in good shape and the citric acid will inhibit the growth of any
unwanted microbes. It is real hard to wear out a cask if it is properly
stored and kept wet.
As for contents... Well, since essentially everything in period would have
been stored in casks tale your pick. It depends entirely on what you enjpy
drinking. An old caks might not impart much oak flavor to the brew so that is
good. European oak really doesn't lend "oak" character in the way that
american oak does. The India Pale Ale style of beer in known for its oakey
qualities becuase it was stored for a long time in casks as it made its voyage
from Britain to India so that might be a good place to start
Whatever ya do.. Relax, Don't Worry.
Eadric Anstapa
Brewer and Drinker
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Mills
Scott_Mills at hp-loveland-om10.om.hp.com
970-635-1075
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Kel Rekuta <krekuta at tor.hookup.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Oak Barrel
Date: 11 Oct 1995 00:01:28 GMT
Organization: HookUp Communication Corporation, Oakville, Ontario, CANADA
> In article <44roh5$esf at hplvec.lvld.hp.com>,
> Scott Mills <scott_mills at hp-loveland-om10.om.hp.com> wrote:
>
> >such as TSP or some other Idophor cleaner to satitize since it has been
>
> Last I heard, Tri-Sodium Phosphate was corrosive. I don't know if it
> would kill you to drink it, but I am sure it wouldn't be very tasty.
>
> Akimoya
>
Sorry my boyo, but I won't be able to clean all my beer bottles you're
so fond of if it weren't for TSP. It rinses off very nicely, thank you.
Much more effective to clean and rinse off glass that household soap.
I also use a food grade Iodophor solution to sterilize plastic beer bottles
and caps before use. Quick contact with the bottle and rinse with cold
water.
Works like a charm.
Ceallach
From: 75767.1464 at compuserve.com (J Klessig)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Oak Barrel
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 16:56:51 GMT
Organization: CompuServe Incorporated
"David R.Watson" <crossbow at moontower> wrote:
>Regarding your oak barrel. Cooperage (the art of making stave-built
>vessels) has two large divisions, wet and dry coopering. Wet coopering
I believe the more common standard divisions are;
Dry loose (such as nail kegs) { WIll never hold water}
Dry tight (flour barrels) {Might hold water}
White (mostly open coopering for dairy use) {will hold water}
wet {should never be used for water if something better is available}
>is for holding liquids. Wet coopered containers should never leak very
>much, even when they've been left empty for some time.
This is unfortunately untrue
I have had barrels that were originally water tight (after some
initial soaking) fail to retighten after they had been let go dry. The
leaks were minor, but not inconsequential
Jim Klessig, ETI
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cs911275 at ariel.cs.yorku.ca (MICHAEL A MACDONALD)
Subject: Re: Oak Barrel
Organization: York University, Dept. of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 03:36:33 GMT
For those who want to clean wooden barrels I strongly advise against
using TSP as it is A) Very caustic, and B) residue is not health.
I reccomend using Potassium Meta-BiSulphate which is very effective
at sterilization and trace amounts will not harm you. I am a vinter
and brewer and have used it for some time. It is also commonly
refered to as a Sulphite solution or a sulphur dioxide solution.
It is available from most reputable home brewing/vinting shops
such as WineArt.
Cheers,
-Mike MacDonald
From: Kel Rekuta <krekuta at tor.hookup.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Oak Barrel
Date: 13 Oct 1995 01:59:52 GMT
Organization: HookUp Communication Corporation, Oakville, Ontario, CANADA
>
> Quoting KelRekuta<krekuta from a message in rec.org.sca
>
> >> >such as TSP or some other Idophor cleaner to satitize since it has
> >been >
> >> Last I heard, Tri-Sodium Phosphate was corrosive. I don't know if it
> >> would kill you to drink it, but I am sure it wouldn't be very tasty.
> >>
> >> Akimoya
> >>
> >Sorry my boyo, but I won't be able to clean all my beer bottles you're
> >so fond of if it weren't for TSP. It rinses off very nicely, thank you.
>
> From GLASS. The discussion was on the care and feeding of wooden barrels.
> Would you really use TSP on the insides of beer barrels?
>
> Carolyn Boselli, Host of Custom Forum 35, SCAdians on Delphi
>
I guess I missed part of the post. I would never use TSP on wood.
I agree it would stay with the fibre. A brewing text from the early
twenties describes the industry procedure for sterilizing barrels.
As barrels were lined with pitch then, a blow torch was liberally applied
to the interior, by trained craftsmen, or by patented mechanical devices
The heat killed everything. The interior was then repitched.
I'm certain some manner of flaming sterilization was performed by
medieval brewers' coopers, so that barrels could be recycled. Pitch
waxes were common enough.
I am not enough of an authenticity mavin to stick my arm in a barrel
with a blow torch. Nor am I willing to light a fire in one to sterilize
it. I'll stick to modern caustic cleaners and idophor solutions even
if I use a barrel to condition a batch of beer in the future.
YMMV
Ceallach
From: scott_mills at hp-loveland-om10.om.hp.com (Scott Mills)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Oak Barrel
Date: 17 Oct 1995 21:50:17 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Loveland, CO
In article <45d58u$fi5 at mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA>,
millsbn at mcmail.cis.McMaster.CAè says...
>
>In article <44roh5$esf at hplvec.lvld.hp.com>,
>Scott Mills <scott_mills at hp-loveland-om10.om.hp.com> wrote:
>
>>such as TSP or some other Idophor cleaner to satitize since it has been
>
>Last I heard, Tri-Sodium Phosphate was corrosive. I don't know if it
>would kill you to drink it, but I am sure it wouldn't be very tasty.
>
>Akimoya
I'll agree with you. Unfortunately my fingers where typing faster than my
brain was thinking. I definately don't and wouldn't use TSP on a wooden
containers. I doubt any small residue left behind would be dangerous but it
probably would leave a real nasty taste.
I food grade Idophor will work just fine for sterilizing the barrels. It will
wash clean, decays quickly, is not harmful, and wont leave an aftertaste.
This idophor is not very far removed from the iodine tablets that you buy
in camping stores to drop into your canteen to sterilize water in
wilderness/survual situations.
For cleaning the barrel use barroklean and relax -- dont' worry.
In period times they did't know about microbes so they never sterilzed
barrels. They did know what certain barrels could develop some property that
could coause beer to go bad (obviously some contamination). At the same time
they observed that certain wooden fermentors produces a better beer and those
obviously contained some favorable microbes.
A post period but more traditional way to sterilize barrels that was used
until a few decades ago and might still be used in europe where real cask ale
is available was to steam clean them. A steam line was connected to one bung
hole and the other left open and they just pumped steam through them for a
while. I have heard people argue that when some barrels where coated with
brewers pitch and the brewers pitch was set on fire that is was to sterilize
the barrels. However, I find that pretty unlikely since one end of the barel
was open when this happened and then the barrel was sealed and let sit for a
while before it was used it would surely become contaminated again. As far as
I can tell the pitch was just to seal the barrel.
Have Fun,
Eadric
--
Scott Mills
Scott_Mills at hp-loveland-om10.om.hp.com
970-635-1075
From: brettwi at ix.netcom.com(Brett Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Coopering?
Date: 4 Apr 1996 15:59:43 GMT
Organization: Netcom
In <4jvpuv$kl at mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA> millsbn at mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA
(Bruce Mills) writes:
>
>Has anyone tried their hand at coopering? I've tried mostly in vain
>to find 5 gallon wooden kegs in which to put my beer (and other
>stuffs); the only ones I can find are American Oak (which I hear tell
>imparts a bitter flavour due to the tannin) and _they_ cost $80 a
>piece.
>
>How hard is coopering, and do you have to use metal hoops to hold the
>barrels together - I can't see myself setting up a forge just to put
>the hoops on. Please bear in mind that I have ten thumbs, all on the
>left hand, and no brains.
>
>Many thanks,
>Akimoya
>Ealdormere
I've watched it being done in person and seen a cooper at work on film,
too (remember the Cornish actor shouting "DENNIS!! in the beginning of
"Jabberwocky"? hehheh). While this by no means makes me an expert of
any sort, my understanding of the process is this:
A cooper is a highly skilled individual. The wooden staves of the
barrel to be have to be shaped and shaved to fit together within their
proposed circumference. The cooper then heats the hoops over his small
forge (!) to expand the metal slightly, then places them one at a time
over the assembled staves and quenches the metal. It just occurred to
me-- does that mean coopers' hoops are the period version of shrink
wrap?
The hoops and barrel bottom in combination hold the barrel together. If
you used rope to hold the staves in place I would think that the barrel
would be less rigid a form than one hooped in metal-- but then, cutting
a groove in the exterior to hold the rope and winching it into a proper
tension with some kind of device...hrm.
I think barrel assembly is easier to do with four hands than two. I
would suspect that as with most folk learning a new skill, experience
will teach both efficiency and proficiency.
ciorstan
From: pyotr at coho.halcyon.com (Pyotr Filipivich)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Coopering?
Date: 4 Apr 1996 19:18:19 GMT
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc.
millsbn at mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA (Bruce Mills) writes:
}Has anyone tried their hand at coopering? I've tried mostly in vain to
}find 5 gallon wooden kegs in which to put my beer (and other stuffs); the
}only ones I can find are American Oak (which I hear tell imparts a bitter
}flavour due to the tannin) and _they_ cost $80 a piece.
}How hard is coopering, and do you have to use metal hoops to hold the
}barrels together - I can't see myself setting up a forge just to put the
}hoops on. Please bear in mind that I have ten thumbs, all on the left
}hand, and no brains.
Oy - that must make typing hard :-)
Coopering is not all that 'difficult' it is just fussy. The making of
water(beer) tight ones more so, but you do have the advantage that a keg
will swell a bit from the moisture.
Non-metalic hoops are possible, and probably period as well, :-)
wooden splits got used, and I'm sure that fabric and rope were used on
occasion, although subject to serious deterioration (rot).
Just keep in mind that there were all manner of specialized tools
developed for the trade.
As for the 'doing' all you need are drawknives and the occasional
'spokeshave'. Take your staves (the boards) and us the drawknive to
taper the wide sides at the end (this will make it easier to 'bend'
them together.) and shape the boards so that they're wider in the middle
than at the ends. See Fig 1.
Now simply use either the drawknife again or the spokeshave to bevel
the edges the same amount so that when your staves are placed in a
circle the middles all mate up flush. band at the middle, and then
bring the open ends together until they meet, and put a band on.
Oh yes, when you are closeing the ends, trap the head boards in the
groove you made on the insides of the staves for this purpose. It is
important to do this before banding, as it is harder to do afterwards.
Warning - bad ascii art coming up!
Okay Fig 1:
A very Short (too short)
barrel stave
_
/ \ this taper depends on the thickness of the material,
/ \ the rigidity of the material (plastic barrels are so
| | thin because the material is so flexible :-) )
\ / In fact, you could just eliminate the taper but then
\_/ you wouldn't have a traditional keg.
Fig two: a a six staved barrel from the top (sort of)
[From the side it looks like one of those maps of the world where
the sections touch a the equator, but diverge the farther north you go]
Top Side view:
_
/ \ /\/\/\/\/\/\ Band second
| | | | | | | | | Band first
\_/ \/\/\/\/\/\/ Band Third
I just had a thought, if you use maple for your staves, it might impart
a slight syrupy taste to your brew. Probably not enough to notice. In
general, don't use 'exotic' woods for your barrel, some are toxic.
Just don't store pickles or saurkraut in the barrel if you intend to use
it for drinkables. Might not hurt the brew, but it will mangle the
taste. (I've heard of attempts to use plastic pickle buckets for
brewing. Dill pickle beer is not an award winner.)
--
pyotr at halcyon.com Pyotr Filipivich, amongst others.
From: brgarwood at aol.com (BRgarwood)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Coopering?
Date: 4 Apr 1996 18:35:38 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
In article <4jvpuv$kl at mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA>,
millsbn at mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA (Bruce Mills) writes:
>How hard is coopering, and do you have to use metal hoops to hold the
>barrels together - I can't see myself setting up a forge just to put the
>hoops on. Please bear in mind that I have ten thumbs, all on the left
My great Grandfather (1836-1919) was a cooper, and we have some of his
tools, but don't know how to use them. Particularly interesting are the
planes, which look something like a regular wood plane but with a curved
base, and some with a guide with about a 15" radius. Some of his wooden
hoops survive as well.
The key to successful barrel making is that the edges of the individual
boards have to be precicely mitred so they meet with the next board when
the barrel is properly barrel-shaped. The hoops can be either metal or
wood, but you will definitely need some sort of rigid hoop to hold it all
together. The barel staves are shaped and fitted together, the hoops
forced on from each end, then the barrel filled with liquid so the staves
swell to make a tight seal.
Berwyn
Lord Berwyn AEthelbryght of Ackley,
Rudivale shire, Northshield, Midrealm
BRgarwood at aol.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: khs7e at Virginia.EDU (Kailo Heinz Schlegel)
Subject: Re: barrels
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 22:56:31 GMT
From what I have read, barrels a few centuries ago were
often longer and more cylindrical (numerous exceptions, of
course) than they are today. Exactly why they chose to alter
it, I don't know, but I can list some advantages to the more
rounded bulgy shape:
less wood is needed to hold the same volume of liquid;
it resembles a sphere a bit more.
The barrel is considerably stronger if made of curved
pieces of wood compared to straight (for the same reason that a
geodosic dome is stronger than a straight walled building)
If the wood gets loose and you have a leak you can take
a hammer and pound the hoops, which provide the pressure to
make the seal, closer to the middle, thus tightening the barrel
easily. This is a CRITICAL feature.
The bulging sides mean that the barrel is resting on a
single point; ease of handling is improved greatly because not
only can you roll the barrel forward or back, you can swivel it
around to change direction. In addition, you can move the
barrel without rolling it at all, by a technique called
"walking" the barrel. Basically, what you do is rock the
barrel back and forth, and while one side is up, you swivel the
barrel a few degrees around that center point, and when the
barrel rocks back so the other end is up, you rotate the barrel
in the opposite direction. If you don't see what I mean, get a
football and pretend it's a barrel, you'll figure it out.
Alastair MacMillan, writing from the shire of Isenfir, in Atlantia
From: ALBAN at delphi.COM
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: barrels
Date: 20 Apr 1996 12:27:14 -0400
Organization: The Internet
So I read all these messages on cooperage and barrels and sources and
such, and one burning question comes to mind:
Why do barrels have curved sides? Wouldn't it make more sense to
make 'em straight?
Alban
From: "Michael W. Bushroe" <mishabear at theriver.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: RE: Barrels
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 23:21:03 -0700
Organization: The River
In the question of why the staves are tapered to produce a vertical
curve, as well as the circular cross section, I offer two more
possibilities.
The first is that it requires greater skill to make the hoops EXACLTY
the right diameter if the barrel is cylindrical. It also would require
heating each hoop before applying it, just like the metal rim of a spoked
wheel. The tapered ends allow a hoop of approximately the right size to
be hammered on cold, and as has been mentioned elsewhere, tightened later
by hammering it further up the slope.
A second reason is that when the staves are bent in at the ends to
produce the taper, they are pressed very firmly against each other in the
middle. This makes it much easier to get the middle of each stave to
seal against the others next to it. This pressure in-ward in the middle
of each stave should also help contain the out-ward pressure of the
liquid within.
In service to the Dream
Misha
From: David Corliss <CORLISD at aa.wl.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: RE: Barrels
Date: 26 Apr 1996 15:24:13 GMT
Organization: Parke-Davis Retrospective Validation
"Michael W. Bushroe" <mishabear at theriver.com> wrote:
>In the question of why the staves are tapered to produce a vertical
>curve, as well as the circular cross section, I offer two more
>possibilities.
>
> The first is that it requires greater skill to make the hoops EXACLTY
>the right diameter if the barrel is cylindrical. It also would require
>heating each hoop before applying it, just like the metal rim of a spoked
>wheel. The tapered ends allow a hoop of approximately the right size to
>be hammered on cold, and as has been mentioned elsewhere, tightened later
>by hammering it further up the slope.
But that's not how you build a barrel: You get the hoops and line them
with the staves. The *last* stave is carefully fitted to be very slightly
too large to just slide into place. It is then dirven in with a mallet.
The barrel is filled with water and swells as the wood absorbs the water.
The hoops, of course, do not swell: this seals the barrel. (Never put
stuff you want to keep in a dry barrel - it will leak out.)
> A second reason is that when the staves are bent in at the ends to
>produce the taper, they are pressed very firmly against each other in the
>middle.
Why? I am a physicist and I don't get this. As stated above, a barrel is
sealed by wedging in the last stave and filling it with water.
Beorthwine of Grafham Wood/David Corliss
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:04:46 -0400
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: Re: SC - kegs and barrels
>According to the catalog these barrels are "lined with parafin for water
>tightness", so it sounds as if they have been designed to hold liquids. As to
>whether or not brewers pitch is period I am not sure. I have been looking for
>it to use to seal the interior of leather bottles and mugs. I do know it is
>made from natural pine tar.
>
>Noemi
"...But it may also be proper to give an account of the method of preparing
wine, as Greek authors have written special treatises on this subject and
have made a scientific system for it -for instance Euphronius,
Aristomachus, Commiades and Hicesius. The practice in Africa is to soften
any roughness with gypsum, and also in some parts of the country with lime.
In Greece, on the other hand, they enliven the smoothness of their wines
with potter's earth or marble dust or salt or sea-water, while in some
parts of Italy they use resinous pitch for this purpose, and it is the
general practice both there and in the neighbouring provinces to season
must with resin; in some places they use the lees of older wine or else
vinegar for seasoning... In some places they boil the must down into what
is called sapa, and pour this into their wines to overcome their harshness.
*** Still both in the case of this kind of wine and in all others they
supply the vessels themselves with coatings of pitch... *** The method of
seasoning wine is to sprinkle the must with pitch during its first
fermentation, which is completed in nine days at most, so that the wine may
be given the scent of pitch and some touches of its piquant flavour..."
Pliny , Natural History, c. 77 A.D., Book XIV, section XXIV, pp. 265-269.
(Excerpted from "A Sip Through Time", p. 244.)
Cindy Renfrow
renfrow at skylands.net
http://www.alcasoft.com/renfrow/
From: bjm10 at cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE: Cooperage and Beer Kegs
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:05:58 -0400
caradoc at news.neta.com (John Groseclose) wrote:
> That would be Jas. Townsend and Sons. I believe their web site is
> "www.jastown.com". They've got some nice stuff, including barrels lined
> with paraffin and/or brewers pitch, IIRC.
You do not want a lined barrel for casking. What you want is a
properly-made unlined barrel.
It is possible to get oak barrels from wine-making supply houses. The
problem is that they are almost invariably American white oak--incredibly
tannic. If you get such casks, you will need to soak them for several
months in some kind of ethanol solution to draw off the excess
tannins--something like wine...
Remember, the purpose of casking ale/beer in an oak cask is not to impart
an oaky flavor. It is to allow it to age. Oak was the wood of choice
because it was the most stable and strongest wood available in most
areas--I would wager that, like excess smokiness, excess oakiness was
actually a flaw throughout most of brewing history. The majority of
mediocre beers may have had it, but that does not mean that it was the
ideal. However, TV commercials aside, there is value in "milder" woods,
too, like beechwood.
From: KB- <bankspad at pacbell.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE: Cooperage and Beer Kegs
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:34:06 -0700
Bryan J. Maloney wrote:
> You do not want a lined barrel for casking. What you want is a
> properly-made unlined barrel.
Thank you everyone for your responses, I very much appreciate the interests
and imputs. To bring this to a circle I would like to expound upon what Mr.
Maloney wrote. It is very true that oak is not a preferred wood for both
styles of beer (ale/lager) and that almost any other less tannined wood being
better, especially beech. The reason oak got it's popularity in the area of
storing wine was not so much the strength of the oak but because of it's
flavor/tannins. Many different woods were used for storing and aging wine
without little concern for it's affect on the wine. Until modern fermenting
techniques were developed where sanitation and yeast purity could be
controlled, even the most carefully prepared must would suffer some tinge of
bacillism. Once it was realized that the strong smoky flavor of oak could
both stop the bacillism before it turned the wine to vinegar and hide the
astringent flavor of infected wine it became the wood of choice.
Mr. Maloney, you are absolutely correct about the purpose of casking beer,
for age not flavor. The main reason for aging in casks as opposed to carboy
or bottles is twofold. First is that unlike glass, wood is porous, regardless
of how hard it is. It is this porosity that allows the cask to 'sweat'
draining off excess water from the wort during final fermentation and aging.
This affects the brew by increasing it's body and acts as a pressure valve
for the cask allowing for greater carbonation which makes for a creamier and
more stiff head. Second, and perhaps most important, is that the wood
completely protects the beer from sunlight. This is important because it is
sunlight that breaks down the prerserving characteristics of the hop's
lupulin. Protecting the beer allows for a longer aging time which equates to
better beer. Anyone who knows and/or enjoys the difference between a typical
'light' beer and a more traditional lagered porter, stout or bock understands
the need for time in proper aging.
The only real problem with buying a premade cask/keg is that you run into the
problem of cash and quality. To purchase a barrel that would be made with
same respect and care as if you had made it yourself would quite expectedly
gut your budget, and to settle for something affordable is well, settling.
After all, the barrel is to the beer as the womb is to the babe.
So, thank you again for responses and as soon as I find what I am looking for
I will be more than happy to post here so that any who are interested may
hopefully benefit.
Hearts to Burn, Fists to Forge, Life to Live, All for Love-
KB-
From: Daniel W. Butler-Ehle <dwbutler at mtu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE: Cooperage and Beer Kegs
Date: 18 Jul 1998 19:21:33 GMT
Organization: Michigan Technological University
John Groseclose <caradoc at news.neta.com> wrote:
: Bryan J. Maloney (bjm10 at cornell.edu) wrote:
: : In article <6onid0$3rp$1 at news.neta.com>, caradoc at news.neta.com (John
: : Groseclose) wrote:
: : > That would be Jas. Townsend and Sons. I believe their web site is
: : > "www.jastown.com". They've got some nice stuff, including barrels lined
: : > with paraffin and/or brewers pitch, IIRC.
: : You do not want a lined barrel for casking. What you want is a
: : properly-made unlined barrel.
: Which they can also provide... I wouldn't use the lined barrels for
: anything, myself, since a well-soaked barrel shouldn't leak anyway.
Are you sure? Last year they said they could only get the lined ones.
BTW, although they do sell brewers' pitch, their catalog states that
the barrels are lined with parafin. I question whether pitch is really
used at all in coopering anymore.
I would wonder about the quality of any barrel which, straight from
the cooper, relies on wax to maintain its seal.
I would absolutely love to find a source of untoasted neutral wood
barrels. The char and oak flavor from my (supposedly un-toasted)
American oak barrels is so over-powering that only the heaviest
beers remain palatable. (Actually, it's kinda nice with my porters.)
And that's after soaking it with a lye solution for a month (changing
it every four or five days. (A careful citric acid wash then
neutralizes the alkali.)
Dave Line (in _Big Book of Brewing_, I believe) mentions that if
you come into posession of a char-lined wine barrel, you have to
take it to a cooper who will disassemble it, scrape the staves and
put it back together. I doubt that this activity would be
particularly economical.
Now my question is "Where the heck do I get a replacement bung
for the one that fell apart last time I removed it? (I've found
wooden keg plugs on the net, but none small enough to fit my
three-gallon keg.)"
Ulfin
From: Brett and Karen Williams <brettwi at ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE: Cooperage and Beer Kegs
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 17:58:58 -0700
Daniel W. Butler-Ehle wrote:
*much snippage*
> Now my question is "Where the heck do I get a replacement bung
> for the one that fell apart last time I removed it? (I've found
> wooden keg plugs on the net, but none small enough to fit my
> three-gallon keg.)"
>
> Ulfin
Might I suggest the Lehman's Non-Electric folks over in Ohio? (no
connection, except many years of drooling over their catalog...)
They carry old-style coopered oak barrels, paraffin-lined, charred and
plain, from 1-gal. up to 30 gal. sizes-- taps, spigots and replacement
bungs, too.
getinfo at lehmans.com
http://www.lehmans.com/ [submitted by Christina <magdlena at texas.net> -ed]
ciorstan
From: Daniel W. Butler-Ehle <dwbutler at mtu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE: Cooperage and Beer Kegs
Date: 19 Jul 1998 18:03:30 GMT
Organization: Michigan Technological University
Brett and Karen Williams <brettwi at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
: Might I suggest the Lehman's Non-Electric folks over in Ohio? (no
: connection, except many years of drooling over their catalog...)
: They carry old-style coopered oak barrels, paraffin-lined, charred and
: plain, from 1-gal. up to 30 gal. sizes-- taps, spigots and replacement
: bungs, too.
Thanks for the tip. I have a Lehmans's catalog from a few years ago,
but their barrel supplies were much more limited than what you
describe. I'll have to get a new catalog (I've been checking their
Web page frequently over the past year, but they still don't list
barrels; the Web catalog is rather abridged from the print version).
Most of their items are a bit overpriced (their main business seems
to be selling to tourists, not actual homesteaders). I can find
most of it cheaper elsewhere, but they have it all in one place.
As much as I balk at the prices, I do recommend the catalog to
historical re-creationists.
Ulfin
From: pug at pug.net (Pug Bainter)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing,rec.crafts.winemaking,rec.org.sca,rec.woodworking
Subject: Coopering summary...
Date: 27 Nov 1998 07:52:34 -0600
Organization: GlobeSet, Inc.
A little more than a week ago, I asked about coopering resources. This
is a summary of the correspondences I got. I have cross-posted this to
the 4 newsgroups that I received information from.
Information is posted in no particular order.
Btw, I have been reading _The Cooper and His Trade_ and besides being
a little stream of thought and a little sketchy on the early historical
conclusions, it's a very good book. It came *very* highly recommended
by several people.
As far as what I'm going to do next, I think I will take up white
coopering in the spring, and see if I can transition to dry then wet
after I have that down.
----
Books:
Foxfire series of books - No. 3 has an article on churns
The Cooper and His Trade, by Kenneth Kilby - Linden Pub.
Count with the cooper, by Barbara Gibson
Village Cooper (Shire Album, No 28), by Kenneth Kilby
Cooperage for Winemakers, by G. Schahinger and B. Rankine - Ryan Publications
----
Magazines:
Fine Woodworking on Woodshop Specialties - ISBN 0-918804-75-2 /
Fine woodworking, issue 15 (March 1979)
Fine Woodworking on Bending Wood - ISBN 0-918804-29-9
----
Websites:
www.williamsburg.com - Colonial Williamsburg
http://mailmunch.law.cornell.edu/mhonarc/OLDTOOLS/ - Old Tools mailing
list archives
http://mailmunch.law.cornell.edu/listservs/OLDTOOLS/1733.html
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Old_tools/about.htm -
Early American Industries Association
http://www.interlog.com/~mmarino/
http://www.mcs.net/~rallen/galoots/coopering/html/index.html
http://www.monticello.org/Matters/industries/coopers.html
http://countrylife.net/offthegrid/forum2/4997.html
http://www.csu.edu.au/stupatch/csuwine - coopering info in mid January
http://www.louislatour.com/html/coopering.html
----
Other:
Arrowmont School in Gatlinburg, TN occasionally offers week-long
classes on coopering
CAMRA
16 minute short film made in the 80's on Sweeney Barrel in Vancouver
----
I probably missed someone, but thanks should go out to at least:
Jonathan P Smith <jps2 at Ra.MsState.EDU>
Mairghread inghean Eanruig <Ettrick at mako.com>
Esther Heller <eoh at kodak.com>
dave <djf3rd at pipeline.com>
Norman White <gn-white at tamu.edu>
Real Lalonde <rlalonde at ca.ibm.com>
Jeff Joslin <Jeff.Joslin.jjoslin at nt.com>
N.D. Wederstrandt <nweders at mail.utexas.edu>
Mark <mhammond at cts.com>
John McGaw <no-spam-jmcgaw at usit.net>
<hhager at mindspring.com>
Pasquale Rinaldo <Pasqual3 at ix.netcom.com>
C.E.(Chuck) Ring <cring at concentric.net>
NomDeNette <ZenKoan at hotmail.com
Baccus <GrapeGetaway at access.net.au>
jerry <Wdcooper3 at aol.com>
Jay Conner <greatferm at aol.com>
--
Richard "Pug" Bainter | GlobeSet, Inc.
System & Network Admin. Manager | 1250 S. Capital of Tx Hwy, 1-300
pug at GlobeSet.com | pug at pug.net | Austin, TX 78746
From: qxd at foto.infi.net (Jim Mowreader)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing,rec.crafts.winemaking,rec.org.sca,rec.woodworking
Subject: Re: Coopering summary...
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 20:40:31 -0500
In article <365F392E.9E7E84B6 at cts.com>, Mark <mhammond at cts.com> wrote:
> The trade was further divided into wet coopers (who could make
> water-tight containers) and dry coopers (who made containers for
> nails, apples, etc,).
Also called slack cooperage (nail kegs, cracker barrels) and tight
cooperage (liquid-holding barrels).
BTW, white oak is the wood of the tight cooper.
From: pug at pug.net (Pug Bainter)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing,rec.crafts.winemaking,rec.org.sca,rec.woodworking
Subject: Re: Coopering summary...
Date: 28 Nov 1998 07:38:19 -0600
Organization: GlobeSet, Inc.
Mark <mhammond at cts.com> wrote:
>The trade was further divided into wet coopers (who could make
>water-tight containers) and dry coopers (who made containers for
>nails, apples, etc,).
From my reading so far, there are 3 general classes, with specialists
in each of these. These are listed in the order of difficulty.
1) White cooper. They make buckets, tubs, butter churns, etc. They use
straight staves for these devices.
2) Dry cooper. They store "dry" goods, such as apples, nails, etc. There
is a specialist under this called dry-tight cooper for things like
fish, that have to be stored in a liquid but are technically dry
goods. Another distinguishing difference is that this type use
cheaper wood and thinner metal rings since they are typically only
used once or so.
3) Wet cooper. They store liquid goods such as beer, wine, jams, etc.
As for the types of woods, many kinds are used in each field.
The wet cooper tends towards your flavorless oaks so they do not impart
much flavor to what is being stored in them. If they have a strong
flavor/smell (such as American oaks) they tend to be treated on the
inside with such things as pitch, beeswax, or some industrial plastics.
--
Richard "Pug" Bainter | GlobeSet, Inc.
System & Network Admin. Manager | 1250 S. Capital of Tx Hwy, 1-300
pug at GlobeSet.com | pug at pug.net | Austin, TX 78746
From: Heather Rose Jones <hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: coopering barrels with rope
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 19:56:25 -0700
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
From: "Uryen / K Grayson" uryen at kooee.com.au
>I have decided to try to make a barrel using rope, instead of metal bands
>this time (Ive made a barrel before), for a more period appearance.
I'm a little bit curious why you think a rope-bound barrel would have a
more period appearance than a metal-bound one. Are there examples of
this you're trying to reproduce?
In addition to the ubiquitous metal-bound barrels, buckets, etc. I've
seen museum examples of stave-built objects bound with wood (bind it
green and it shrinks when it dries). I don't recall seeing any bound
with rope, which is why I'm wondering.
Tangwystyl
*********
Heather Rose Jones
hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu
From: wbfountain at aol.comnospam (Wm. Bryan Fountain)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: 01 Jul 2001 03:07:43 GMT
Subject: Re: coopering barrels with rope
>> >I have decided to try to make a barrel using rope, instead of metal bands
>> >this time (Ive made a barrel before), for a more period appearance.
>
>I'm a little bit curious why you think a rope-bound barrel would have a
>more period appearance than a metal-bound one. Are there examples of
>this you're trying to reproduce?
>
>In addition to the ubiquitous metal-bound barrels, buckets, etc. I've
>seen museum examples of stave-built objects bound with wood (bind it
>green and it shrinks when it dries). I don't recall seeing any bound
>with rope, which is why I'm wondering.
Several of the examples I have seen documented in the "foxfire" book series
show how to use "splits" of green wood or vines to make the binding - I will
try and find you the exact references.
Ld Brun Canutteson - resident of the Midlands - (Midrealm)
Squire & Seige Engineer for House VonBrandenburg
MKA - Wm. Bryan Fountain
Asst. Professor of Industrial Technology
Sauk Valley Community College
Dixon, IL
From: "Uryen / K Grayson" <uryen at kooee.com.au>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: coopering barrels with rope
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 18:22:27 +1000
Wm. Bryan Fountain wrote
>Several of the examples I have seen documented in the "foxfire" book series
>show how to use "splits" of green wood or vines to make the binding - I
>will try and find you the exact references.
Ive seen examples of wood-binding too. That was going to be my next project
:-)
My theory is that the majority of rope bound barrels were for everyday trade
use. Therefore few would have survived. My 'proof' is a period picture
showing 12 individual hoops on a wine barrel. Which I think would be
unnessesary for metal hoops, but probable for both rope and vine bindings.
The other reason is because thats what they always use in movies set in
period (hey! Im allowed :-)
Uryen / K Grayson
From: Ralph Lindberg & Ellen Winnie <rlindber at kendaco.telebyte.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: coopering barrels with rope
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 08:54:34 -0700
"Uryen / K Grayson" <uryen at kooee.com.au> wrote:
> what you do is get the planks that have been cut close to the heart. the
> growth rings run almost perpendicular to the long side. quite a search is
> required, but eventually you can collect enough decent quality wood.
All you need to do is buy "quarter-sawn heart wood". Of course what
that costs....
From my reading metal banding goes back as far as I've been able learn
about cooperage. I suspect that non-metal banding was used only for
cheaper cooperage, maybe only for the units that were not intended for
"wet" storage.
Me, the best I've done is white cooperage (ie buckets).
Ralg
--
Ralph Lindberg personal email n7bsn at amsat.org
From: wtp at nds10758.cb.lucent.com (Powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: coopering barrels with rope
Date: 10 Jul 2001 21:41:13 GMT
Organization: Lucent Technologies, Columbus, Ohio
>I, for one, was unaware that different ropes would stretch
>differently. Although I believe leather does expand when
>wet and then shrink as it dries.
>
>So, I'd be interested in a listing of rope fibers and
>whether they expand or contract when wet if anyone has
>such a thing handy. I'm mostly interested in the period
>rope materials, but modern ones would be nice too, since
>that may have to be what I use for some projects.
Linen, line *not* tow, tightens when wet.
raw hide, as noted, stretches when wet, shrinks when drying
Ramie has the same properties as linen
horse hair expands when wet contracts when dry
W.Thomas Powers
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 11:24:05 -0400
From: "marilyn traber 011221" <phlip at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] coopering (barrel making)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
>> but it doesn't do well for storing water or whatever. Wooden barrels would
>> seem to be great at SCA events, at least the smaller ones and for eventslike
>> Gulf Wars where onsite storage is possible, they wouldn't have to be
>> transported back and forth each year.
>>
>> Stefan
>
> Wouldn't storing barrels onsite be problematic given that the barrel
> really needs to be kept wet?
>
> Margaret FitzWilliam
Actually, you can store them dry, but you really need to have them wet for a
couple days, so the wood swells again, for them to hold water again. Or at
least, that's what the guys say who use them for slack tubs. I'd dearly love
to get my hands on one for my own slack tub and find out for myself.
Phlip
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 15:58:27 -0500
From: "Betsy Marshall" <betsy at softwareinnovation.com>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] coopering (barrel making)
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Our camp organizer keeps a layer of beeswax on the inside of his/our water
barrel- renewing it at the start of each Pennsic. last year I took the old
wax home to make candles from it. Since the wax seals any gaps or leaks, no
worries about wet/dry cycles.
=========
I have several buckets which I dutifully kept submerged all winter, since I
live in Denver. The directions that came with advised that submerging was
preferable to drying/re-wetting, since the cycling of moisture can warp the
staves to the point where they can't hold water even when wet. Of course,
they now all have a slime coat, and the steel hoops have rusted and fouled
the water. One of these *was* my water "cooler" - not too interested in
puting drinking water in it now!
Lijsbet
Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 00:42:16 -0500
From: Stefan li Rous <stefanlirous at austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] coopering (barrel making)
To: SCA-Cooks maillist SCA-Cooks <SCA-Cooks at ansteorra.org>
Simon replied to Devra with:
>>>>
At 06:51 AM 4/28/2006, Devra wrote:
> They have half whiskey barrels here in Brooklyn, which is a lot
> closer than California...
> Devra
I'm in Oregon. The things presumably come from Kentucky & Tennessee.
Simon Sinneghe
Briaroak, Summits, An Tir
<<<<
Uh, not necessarily. Initially they are probably from there, but they
may have travelled further before they got to the home improvement
store near you.
In the article "The Brillance of the Barrel" by Wayne Curtis in the
Spring 2006 issue of "American Heritage of Invention and Technology"
there is a section on the life of used barrels. This is the article I
mentioned earlier in this thread, but couldn't find at that time.
"Compared with the barrels used for cargo long ago, the casks
employed to age whiskey and wine have relatively short life spans.
For wine the beneficial qualities of the oak are spent after about
five years. And by law bourbon makers can use a barrel only once
before discarding it." "We sell them to the Scotch guys," says Fred
Noe. "And some tequilla distilleries are buying them now to age their
tequillas." "In the West Indies travelers often see barrels from
Kentucky and Tennessee lined up at rum distillieres. ... then they
end up in the backyard tending germaniums...."
"Each of which had cost a bourbon distiller maybe $300, then $150
when it went to a second distiller, and now cost about half that[at
the Home Depots and Lowes]".
Stefan
--------
THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas
Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 03:32:09 -0500
From: "Mark S. Harris" <marksharris at austin.rr.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] cooperage
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Selene C. asked:
<<< Where can one learn cooperage these days? We could make a proper tub of
proper materials. Which, of course, brings the topic back around to
historical containers, whether for food or for people. :-) >>>
Start with:
coopering-msg (50K) 7/13/06 Making and maintaining barrels
and kegs.
In the CRAFTS section of the Florilegium.
I think I mention a very good book I got on coopering in there.
Okay, Let me pull up my book database... Oh! I've got more books on
this than I thought.
"The Cooper and His Trade"
Kilby, Kenneth
ISBN: 0-941936-16-3
Linden Publishing
Fresno, Calif.
192 pages
This was the one I was thinking of first.
"How to Make a Coopered Wooden Bucket: A Beginner's Guide with
Detailed Instructions and Illustrations"
Gaster, James D.
ISBN: 1-57921-798-2
WinePress Publishing WA
"Village Cooper (Shire Album, No 28)"
Kliby, K.
ISBN: 0-85263-392-0
Shire Pubns
Aylesbury
I had ideas of making wooden casks and buckets for use at events
instead of plastic ones. However, reading the first book quickly got
rid of any delusions I had of being able to do that. At least for
barrels the staves have to be carved to curve in all three dimensions
simultaneously. In addition, the wood for these needs to be radially
split from a log, not cut with a saw. So I had no source of good
source material.
However, for a large tub, the staves probably can be done with only a
simple curve and a large radius at that. And maybe the use of a lot
of sealant. :-)
Can I come soak in your hot tub when you finish it? Sigh.
Stefan
Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 10:15:17 -0400
From: devra at aol.com
Subject: [Sca-cooks] coopering
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
I believe that Old Sturbridge Village (MA) has a cooper's shop. Visiting them is always informative and pleasant, even though their 'time' is 1820s. (I truly don't believe that the art changed all that much...) They also have a fairly extensive book selection in their gift shoppeee.? If there's a historic recreation near you, you might ask them...
Devra
Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 08:34:26 -0700
From: Mark Hendershott <crimlaw at jeffnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] cooperage
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
One other book of possible use is by Drew Langsner (sp?). He
included a section on coopering buckets. Title doesn't come to mind
and I am at the office where I can't look at my index. Langsner is
still active teaching a course in primitive woodworking in North
Carolina. He's written several books.
Simon Sinneghe
Briaroak, Summits, An Tir
From: Raymond Wickham <insidious565 at hotmail.com>
Date: January 3, 2010 1:34:31 AM CST
To: <stefanlirous at austin.rr.com>
Subject: barrels
i presume you have seen these
http://www.usedwinebarrels.com/
http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/article/0,,1583087,00.html
interesting article on where i would have looked for barrels
non standard barrels in the uk
http://www.kilgraney.com/KFoakbarrels.htm
here is a BIG supplier but commercial
http://www.rex-change.com/000002/index.html
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 23:16:47 +0000
From: yaini0625 at yahoo.com
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Documenting balsamic? Slow progress
Leymans have barrels and containers.
Aelina
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 19:13:18 -0500
From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig at columbus.rr.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Documenting balsamic? Slow progress
<<< Do you have an website address. It doesn't seem to be readily
available with a search.
Eduardo >>>
They have barrels, the site doesn't list the type of wood, but they
might be able to tell you.
Ranvaig
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 09:41:15 -0800
From: "Laureen Hart" <lhart at graycomputer.com>
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Wood Barrels
A search for "wood barrels for sale" brings up a lot of hits.
Eduardo, I know they have some at the Cellar Homebrew.
The Cellar Homebrew
14320 Greenwood Avenue N.
Seattle, WA 98133
TEL (206) 365-7660
Randell
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 10:07:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Raphaella DiContini <raphaellad at yahoo.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Wood Barrels
They currently have a selection of sizes, but they are all oak. They are looking
into the possibility of ordering some of different woods and will call me back.
They currently have in stock a 12 gallon for 299.95, a 3 gallon for 226.99, and
a 2 gallon for 229.95. The lady I spoke with said they order them at different
times and from different suppliers so the price isn't necessarily consistent.
Raffaella
<<< A search for "wood barrels for sale" brings up a lot of hits.
Eduardo, I know they have some at the Cellar Homebrew.
The Cellar Homebrew
14320 Greenwood Avenue N.
Seattle, WA 98133
TEL (206) 365-7660
Randell >>>
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