bladesmithing-msg - 7/25/04
Steel sources, making knives and swords. Pattern-welding. Wortz.
NOTE: See also the files: blacksmithing-msg, blksm-forges-msg, blksm-anvils-msg, bellows-msg, swords-msg, swordsmiths-msg, swordcare-msg, knife-throwing-msg.
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Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: powers at cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another blacksmithing question
Date: 10 Jul 1995 17:00:51 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
>I recently took a beginning knife-making class and now I'm all
>pumped to make some sharp cutty things for my scribe's box. The
>instructor of the class advocated using old files to begin with.
>My question to any knowledgable person out there is: If I walked
>into my local metal shop to get suitable metal to make a small knife
>(for eating, carving quills, gen.utility, etc.), what kind of bar
>stock would I request?
>
>Many thanks for the assitance, Tatiana Dieugarde
Pray pardon me milady Tatiana; I fear I could not help but overhear you
asking about knife steels as I loitered on this bridge. May I converse
with you about this?
I am afraid I did not catch what tools you have access to so I will
provide various options.
The old file, (and I mean "old" file, some modern files are playing
fast and loose with case-hardening and powder metallurgy!) is oft used
due to its carbon content, often being close to 1%!, ease of procurement
and the advantage of it being already tempered to a hard and brittle state.
This is an advantage to people who have not access to a forge, kiln, torch
or other commonly used method of heat treating a blade. The file, already
being tempered too hard, is drawn to a tougher temper using a kitchen oven,
(depending on the file and how you plan to use/mis-use the knife and how you
like the blade, you would bake it at 400-550 F), then worked into the blade
being carefull to keep the temperature of the blade cooler than the drawing
temperature. The disadvantage is that the metal is still harder than
annealed stock and so it is more difficult to work.
If you were to step into a machine shop; you could ask for any of a number
of steels, based on what you wanted from your blade and what tools you
have access to.
Among them:
O-1, commonly available, fairly cheap, known and used by knifemakers for years.
This steel will rust and is heat treated by heating to its curie temperature
and quenching in oil. In annealed state you can file/grind/abrade it to shape.
5160, commonly available as leaf spring stock--ask a springshop to buy scraps,
the pieces along the road oft contain hidden cracks and stresses! It should
be cheap. This material also will rust, and has a lower carbon content than O-1
so you will draw it to a different temperature after quenching it, (I prefer
an oil quench for 5160 as well)
440C, probably the most used steel by custom knifemakers. This is a stainless
steel that is very resistant to rust, takes a mirror polish and holds an edge.
(I can't talk about heat treat since I don't use this one much, a good
knifemaking book like _The Complete Bladesmith_ by Jim Hrisoulas should
cover it, (I never can remember Jim's sca name), or Machinery's handbook,
or ask at the machine shop). Probably more expensive than the others.
Steels not in ones best interest to try working by hand as a beginners project
include such things as D2, Stellite, VascoWear,... most being hard to work
and needing precise heat treating to get your money's worth from these alloys.
When I teach bladesmithing I usually try to use a simple straight carbon steel
like 1080, 1075, 1095; often salvaged from old farm equipment, spark tested,
and drawn to personal preference. Its only on their third knife that we start
talking about pattern welding! (Morcant you lucked out!)
wilelm the smith who does a billet every pennsic as a personal momento...
From: scj427 at aol.com (SCJ427)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another blacksmithing question
Date: 11 Jul 1995 00:50:28 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
For knifemaking and other cutting questions may I make two
recommendations.
A. Get an Atlanta Cutlery catalog. Some good basic supplies and blank
blades. Call 1-800-883-0300 and ask for a catalog.
B. Check out the gun shows in your area. I have rarely been to a gun
show where there was not someone selling brass fittings and bar stock for
hilts. I got some decent exotic wood scales at a show this past weekend.
Stock removal method is the easiest to master for a beginner. You can
clamp a belt sander in a vice to approximate a table sander and get some
passable results. To use tool steel, (such as old files) you either have
to spend a lot on abrasives or anneal the stuff to soften it first.
A Glover pocket reference is good info. It contains a lot on
engineering formulae and other neat info. One thing is the relationship
to heated steel color and temperature for the type of steel. A good quick
reference if you don't do forging regularly.
Try junkyards for stock. One of the best shortswords I turned out (when
I had access to a forge many moons ago) started life as a leaf spring from
an old Packard.
Hope it helps,
Stefan MacMorrow ap Rhovannon
From: txspeed at aol.com (TX Speed)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another blacksmithing question
Date: 11 Jul 1995 13:58:36 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
I recently took a beginning knife-making class and now I'm all
pumped to make some sharp cutty things for my scribe's box. The
instructor of the class advocated using old files to begin with.
My question to any knowledgable person out there is: If I walked
into my local metal shop to get suitable metal to make a small knife
(for eating, carving quills, gen.utility, etc.), what kind of bar
stock would I request?
Many thanks for the assitance,
Tatiana Dieugarde
(please respond to the net as my private email account is undergoing
repair)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I like ATS-34. Not quite as rust-resistant as 440c, but it seems to work
better for me. Easy to grind and hardens nicely. Will hold an edge better
than 440c, though it's not quite as strong. It won't darken and look
rustic (rusty?) with age, but for a general SCA knife you probably want
something stainless. Most knifemaker's supplys will have as much ATS as
any industrialized nation could ever want, but you probably have to buy a
foot of it at least.
Ld. Gundy
From: mfaul at netscape.com (Mike Faul)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another blacksmithing question
Date: 14 Jul 1995 23:22:30 GMT
Organization: Netscape Communications Corp.
In article <3u4v6t$ej9 at news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, raclapp at ibm.net says...
>
>In <3trsmp$u8b at news.missouri.edu>, Shannon Ward
<sward02 at mail.coin.missouri.edu> writes:
>>I recently took a beginning knife-making class and now I'm all
>>pumped to make some sharp cutty things for my scribe's box. The
>>instructor of the class advocated using old files to begin with.
>>My question to any knowledgable person out there is: If I walked
>>into my local metal shop to get suitable metal to make a small knife
>>(for eating, carving quills, gen.utility, etc.), what kind of bar
>>stock would I request?
>
Used files found at flea markets/yard sales will do what you need. Old
sayz or hacksaw blades work too. Chainsaw bars too.
If ou want good quality metal ask for 1095 or other 10xx number
metal.thats plain carbon steel. use 1045 - 1095
440 stainless is okay too as is D2 tool steel.
Mike
From: raclapp at ibm.net
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another blacksmithing question
Date: 14 Jul 1995 05:26:53 GMT
In <3trsmp$u8b at news.missouri.edu>, Shannon Ward <sward02 at mail.coin.missouri.edu> writes:
>I recently took a beginning knife-making class and now I'm all
>pumped to make some sharp cutty things for my scribe's box. The
>instructor of the class advocated using old files to begin with.
>My question to any knowledgable person out there is: If I walked
>into my local metal shop to get suitable metal to make a small knife
>(for eating, carving quills, gen.utility, etc.), what kind of bar
>stock would I request?
Try old Circular saw blades, until you get a good handle on the tricks.
They make good blades that hold up well, to everyday use.
Richard. Clapp
Columbus, OH
From: breneth at realm.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca (David Robertson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another blacksmithing question
Date: 10 Jul 95 21:33:38 EST
Organization: The Realm Of Twilight BBS * (519)748-9026
Greetings
There are several types of steel that will make excellent knives and
other cutting edge tools. First you have to decide how you want to harden the
material oil, water , brine, or other exotic solutions. Water is the easiest
to get which would mean using a tool steel called W1 or W2. If you decide to
use oil watch out for the flash back but O1 is an excellent knife steel. Old
files and springs can be used but often there are stress cracks already in the
material when you get it used, many a blade has been lost to un seen cracks
that usually show up when you harden it. New material is the best and that
way you know what you are getting. Some suppliers will be able to give you a
copy of the hardening and tempering sequence for the particular tool steels
that they carry. A word of caution these sheets are based on labratory
testing and as a blade smith your temperatures will be more by eye than
pyrometer.
Best of Luck
If you have any questions:
breneth at realm.tdkcs.waterloo.ca
From: jhrisoulas at aol.com (JHrisoulas)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Bladesmith Book Info
Date: 27 Jul 1995 17:16:12 -0400
After numerous requests, I have decided it would be easier just to post
this information:
"THE COMPLETE BLADESMITH"
"THE MASTER BLADESMITH"
"THE PATTERN WELDED BLADE"
All are in print and available from Paladin Press, P.O. Box 1307, Boulder
Colorado, 80306, USA...
Also my mailing address is:
Dr. J.P. Hrisoulas
Salamander Armoury
330 South Decatur, ste 109
Las Vegas, NV 89017 USA.
Maybe this will help slow the deluge of mail I have been getting on this
subject..
Thank you!!!
Atar Bakhtar
From: Rick&Joy <rickaj at delphi.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another blacksmithing question
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 95 23:35:03 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info at delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
<raclapp at ibm.net> writes:
>>My question to any knowledgable person out there is: If I walked
>>into my local metal shop to get suitable metal to make a small knife
>>(for eating, carving quills, gen.utility, etc.), what kind of bar
>>stock would I request?
>
>Try old Circular saw blades, until you get a good handle on the tricks.
>They make good blades that hold up well, to everyday use.
Watch out for circular saw blades. While the old ones were made with a good L6
steel mostly, many of the newer ones are made with high speed steels. this
means that while you CAN make a knife out of them it is hard to forge and hard
to grind (not to ment
ion it is a pain in the rump to forge or cut a small pattern out of a circular
sheet of steel.)
I would recommend going to your local wrecking yard and picking up a fairly
thin leaf spring. If you have access to a table saw (NOT a skilsaw) put a
metal cutting blade (fiberberglass and emery thing) and cutting knife length
and width pieces out of it.
If you have no saw then you will spend most of your time forging the profile
down. I have had huge amounts of luck with this technique. Besides you can
sometimes get the leaf springs gratis if they are broken. Good luck.
Rick "the blacksmith at heart doomed to live in an apartment" Johnson
From: powers at cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another blacksmithing question
Date: 31 Jul 1995 12:13:00 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
> If you have no saw then you will spend most of your time forging the profile
>down. I have had huge amounts of luck with this technique. Besides you can
>sometimes get the leaf springs gratis if they are broken. Good luck.
>Rick "the blacksmith at heart doomed to live in an apartment" Johnson
L.S.
I do not advocate the use of previously broken leaf springs for knife stock.
Failure mode for the spring seems to be the creation of multiple cracks
in the steel one of which propagates catastrophically, leaving the others
hidden in the metal to be discovered *after* you have already put a lot
of work into the blade. Instead; go to a local spring maker and get their
"left-overs" pieces left after they cut a length of stock for a spring.
If you talk nicely; they may give you 10 pounds or so of pieces free.
Otherwise I have always been able to buy at the going scrap rate.
After being "burned" a couple of times I have stopped using roadkill springs
and am much happier with the "good stuff"
wilelm the smith
From: Rick&Joy <rickaj at delphi.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another blacksmithing question
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 95 18:47:17 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info at delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
william thomas powers <powers at cis.ohio-state.edu> writes:
>> Itf you have no saw then you will spend most of your time forging the profile
>>down. I have had huge amounts of luck with this technique. Besides you can
>>sometimes get the leaf springs gratis if they are broken. Good luck.
>>Rick "the blacksmith at heart doomed to live in an apartment" Johnson
>
>L.S.
>
>I do not advocate the use of previously broken leaf springs for knife stock.
>Failure mode for the spring seems to be the creation of multiple cracks
>in the steel one of which propagates catastrophically, leaving the others
Since this is a response to my own response I shall respond. VERY GOOD POINT.
I have never made a large blade from a leaf spring because you never know
exactly what is in them but I have made many small ones and this may explain
the mysterious failure of a couple. I shall now shop at the local spring maker like you. Thanks
Rick
From: jhrisoulas at aol.com (JHrisoulas)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "mistrust anything made in India"
Date: 3 Jul 1996 17:03:24 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
As far as Indian quality on edged weapons go..this varies, widely! I have
run spectro's on all sorts of various and sundry items, both new and "old"
(200+ years) and the quality is subjective.
As it stands, professionally speaking, myself I wouldn't buy anything from
Museum replicas IF I was looking for a serious "social problem" solver,
(but then again, I am in the position of being able to make much better
items myself...Others are not as fortunate.).BUT for the most part, as
far as what re-enactors and SCA types look for..Hey have at it. But
beware, as quality is variable from MRL... I have seen some decent stuff
come from them as well as a boat anchor or two..
MRL does however fill a niche, the one between the $40.00 cheapie sword
and the $750.00 and up custom....You do get what you pay for from a
reputable company, and this does apply to MRL.
If you are looking for something that looks decent and will not fall apart
in you hands, look at MRL...If you want a sword that is as good as you can
find...Well, you will have to go to a REPUTABLE blade maker and you should
be prepared to pay more, considerably more than the few hundred dollars
that MRL blades run.
I have seen some decent blades (especially those from the New Delhi Gun
House) that are wonderful, made from top quality materials and others,
still from India that were made from some "mystery metal" ...Unable to
harden, with very low (less than 30 points) carbon content...
All I can suggest is to look at the item, ask for a warranty and use you
best judgement....
Dr JP Hrisoulas
Author, Bladesmith, Lecturer, Metallographer
aka
Atar Bakhtar, OL
From: JHrisoulas at aol.com
To: markh at risc.sps.mot.com
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:13:44 -0400
Subject: blades
In a message dated 96-07-06 16:22:07 EDT, you write:
In article <4rlrc9$plb at newsbf02.news.aol.com>, jhrisoulas at aol.com
(JHrisoulas) wrote:
> There are much better blades available , but you will be paying much more
> for them...Case in point: my own...(But I am not trying to sell anyone
> anything)
>
> But for the money, (if my memory serves correctly they are in the $300.00
> range, it has been a while since I have seen a MRL catalog) they are
> servicable, although in my opinion they are very, very soft.
>
> As far as MRL vs the originals, well the originals were not all that
> bad...From what I and several other metallographers and historians have
> been able to piece together from blade fragments doing gas, spectros and
> other tests (no one with a complete sword would let us have a piece to run
> tests on..drats) most of the blades would compare favourably under
> today's standards. I would say that MRL is right in there with the mid
> range of the originals, not bad, but not as good as they could be..
>
> Now I am not saying that originals were all wonderful, there was still a
> lot of "junk" being made back then, just like today, but the pieces that
> we have tested, 80% were made from decent materials...How they were heat
> treated, we cannot really tell, other than that they were hardened and
> tempered. Blades from the 14th Cent on were pretty good...generally...
In reply to your inquiry about blades..
After the first Crusade, the pattern welded blade pretty much disappeared due
to the time required to properly make them.. There was simply too much of a
demand for arms and the smiths tended to go towards the carburized iron...
While these made a servicable blade, the quality wasn't all that good...