dogs-msg - 11/16/04
Dogs. Barding for dogs. dog collars. Medieval breeds.
NOTE: See also the files: dogs-lnks, medieval-dogs-art, Dog-Carts-art, Guinefort-art, cats-msg, pets-msg, rabbits-msg, ferrets-msg, hunting-msg, p-thts-animls-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: cdoelle at starbase.neosoft.com (Chris Doelle)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Barding for my DOG
Date: 25 Jan 1995 13:57:36 GMT
I have a St. Bernard named Sam that is a large part of my SCA persona and
was wondering if anyone knew of where I could find patterns/designs for
barding for my dog. I am open to any ideas - I will buy it if I have to
, but prefer the thrill that comes in making it myself. Thanks in advance
Chris Doelle
a.k.a. Christian Bryant of House Canis Gigantis
cdoelle at starbase.neosoft.com
From: lsmith5696 at aol.com (LSmith5696)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Barding for my DOG
Date: 27 Jan 1995 23:53:07 -0500
Why yes. There is a book on medieval hunting called 'The Hawk & the
Hound' which has descriptions of (and primary source illustrations) of
both quilted armor and brigandine for canines.
-----Master Johannes the Black, Meridies
From: corun at access2.digex.net (Corun MacAnndra)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: YKYITSCAW...
Date: 13 Oct 1995 16:35:29 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
In article <polsons-1210951823500001 at slip191.sirius.com>,
The Polsons <polsons at cruzio.com> wrote:
>In article <45i99gINN2eq at sphinx.sps.mot.com>, markh at risc.sps.mot.com
>(Mark.S Harris) wrote:
>
>> > There's even a dog collar
>> >museum at Leeds castle in England. Yup, I've got the book. (Is
>>
>> Could you please post the citation for this book (and the cost if
>> you know it?). I'm sure there are some dog owners who might be
>> interested in period dog collars. Heck, I'm interested in seeing
>> what the book has to say, and I don't have a dog.
>
>Wasn't there an article in Tournaments Illuminated a few issues back on this?
Yes, written by Lady Alianora Munro, she for whom the world turns, and who
is currently enrolled and ensconced at the University of St. Andrews in
Scotland (which I understand is somewhere in Harplestane ;-), where she
is dilligently working on her Doctorate, translating and editing a book
by a 16th century friar on the History of Scotland.
Corun (of the paragraphical sentences)
===============================================================================
Corun MacAnndra | Over the router and through the bridge
Dark Horde by birth | To Grandmothers page we go
Moritu by choice |
From: sjaqua at ix.netcom.com (Scott Jaqua )
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: dog collars
Date: 13 Oct 1995 01:47:56 GMT
Hi- found the book- "Four Centuries of Dog Collars at Leeds Castle"
ISBN 0 85667 0731
If anybody wants more info, let me know.
Allesaundra de Crosthwaite
From: corun at access2.digex.net (Corun MacAnndra)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: TI article on dog collars (Was: YKYITSCAW)
Date: 14 Oct 1995 11:09:20 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lady Alianora has asked me to forward this since her newsfeed is
currently not functional and she has no way to read or reply to the
Rialto.
Corun
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 10:17:49 +0100 (BST)
From: Stephanie Malone Thorson <smt2 at st-andrews.ac.uk>
Newgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: YKYITSCAW...
On Fri, 13 Oct 1995, Corun MacAnndra wrote:
> >Wasn't there an article in Tournaments Illuminated a few issues back on this?
>
> Yes, written by Lady Alianora Munro, she for whom the world turns, and who
> is currently enrolled and ensconced at the University of St. Andrews in
> Scotland (which I understand is somewhere in Harplestane ;-), where she
> is dilligently working on her Doctorate, translating and editing a book
> by a 16th century friar on the History of Scotland.
The article was in _TI_ No. 111, Summer 1994, for the curious. I'm
available for discussion, but only by private email since my newsfeed is
currently down "due to serious disk problems." It must be bad, if they're
telling the users it's bad. I'm getting to respond here through a little
creative email technology.
Cheers,
Alianora
who thinks everyone should have a pet Mongol to extol their virtues.
*****************************************************************************
Stephanie M. Thorson * SCA: Lady Alianora Munro
University of St Andrews *
St Andrews, Scotland * Clan White Wing ... coming
email smt2 at st-andrews.ac.uk * soon to a kingdom near you!
*****************************************************************************
From: jmaxson at osf1.gmu.edu (Jennifer L Maxson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: YKYITSCAW...
Date: 19 Oct 1995 13:23:35 GMT
Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Virginia, USA
Scott Jaqua (sjaqua at ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: holsten at nature.berkeley.edu (Donna Holsten) writes:
: >You're at an event with your two dogs--the Rott and the Schipperke,
: and
: >someone asks what kind of dog the "little black one" is. You start
: into
: >the usual "They're Dutch dogs that go back as far as the 16th Century;
: >someone wrote about a pair of them saving Duke So-and-So..."
: >
: >And then the questioner cuts you off with "Don't you think that
: documenting
: >your *dogs* is a BIT MUCH!?"
: >
: >Joanna (and Calvin, and Eleanora)
: Nope, I document my pets. My Curly-Coated Retrievers, Brittanys,
: and yellow naped amazon parrot are documentable. My Labrador
: Retrievers, albino corn snake, and Jersey wooley rabbit are not. Heck,
: I even document and make period dog collars! There's even a dog collar
: museum at Leeds castle in England. Yup, I've got the book. (Is
: obsessive compulsion spelled with a hyphen?)
: Allesaundra de Crosthwaite
: Mrs. Scott Jaqua
Yep. You're right.
I saw the "dog collar room" at Leeds Castle, Kent, England.
Strange stuff there. I was there in August, dog days of
summer. =) That's where we learned that all the spikes
were there to protect the dog from other wild predators,
since they usually attack at the neck. Never thought about
it before. Like I said, after touring the castle, the
room was a bit odd.
Cheers.
From: cmleston at msn.com (Christine Leston)
Subject: Re: Beef and Cattle Raising (Was: Re: Any word from 30 Year)
Date: 23 Jun 96 18:39:37 -0700
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
I don't know about the size of cattle in Medieval times, but it is
true that dogs have been used for herding cattle. Corgis (like Queen
Elizabeth's favourite pets) were trained to nip at their heels and
herd them in the right direction.
Show bulls tend to be a lot larger than cows.
Brigid of Astbury.
From: savaskan <savaskan at electriciti.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Cattle Dogs (was Beef and Cattle Raising)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 01:00:11 -0700
Organization: ElectriCiti, Inc.
Jimmy Patrick wrote:
> Cattle (today) are harder to drive with dogs because 1) the dogs are
> so small to them, and 2)cattle -esp. cow with calf- are more ornery
> than sheep. There are several dog breeds just for cattle driving and
> the better herding dogs can be easily trained to herd cattle.
> (see http://worm.biosci.arizona.edu/Stockdog/stockdog.html)
> Many people don't train their smaller dogs for cattle because if the
> dog (or the person) goofs up the dog can die.
>
Absolutely true. Most of us think of the smaller shepherd breeds, but
many of the larger farm dog breeds were developed from cattle droving
dogs. While most dog "breeds" were codified in the 19th century, many
had been bred for purpose without standardization for centuries prior.
Eventually people selected them for specific traits and they became
breeds. In some cases this became extreme and the dogs lost their
ability to work cattle. Some examples of modern breeds which are
descended from these dogs are the Appenzell Cattle Dog, the Bernese
Mountain dog, the Entlebuch Cattle Dog, the Great Swiss Mountain Dog,
(Austria/Switzerland) the Bouvier des Flandres (the Lowlands), Old
English Sheepdogs, Saint Bernards, Mastin de Espanol, and Rottweilers.
The only small dog I know which I know is currently used extensively
with cattle is the Australian Cattle Dog and it has quite an attitude!
There is an extinct breed which was one of the founding breeds of the
Fila Brasiliero called the Fila Terceirense, a cattle herding dog from
Portugal which was brought to Brazil in the 1500s by colonists. One of
the reasons the Fila Brasiliero is particularly aggressive supposedly
because it has to deal with a particularly nasty breed of cattle.
I raise Anatolian Shepherd Dogs, which are an ancient livestock guardian
breed from Turkey (supposedly over 5,000 years.) They may have been the
"Byzantine Mastiffs" and the basis of the Spanish mastiffs. They will
guard cattle or any other animal that they consider their "flock", but
they do not drive or herd them. Cattle do have problems with predators
in some areas during calving season here in the US. There are a number
of very ancient and almost untouched period Livestock Guardian breeds
which are almost unknown to most people such as Great Pyrenese, Maremma,
Polish Tatra, Slovensky Cuvac, Kuvasz, and Caucasian Ovtcharka amoung
others. These breeds would have guarded the livestock and the farms in
period times, against human and animal predators.
Julianna
Savaskan Anatolians
http://www.electriciti.com/~savaskan/homepage.html
From: david_key at vnet.ibm.com (Dave Key)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hounds in Period
Date: 28 Oct 1996 17:09:46 GMT
Organization: IBM UK Laboratories Ltd.
"M. Jantz" <mjantz at freenet.mb.ca> writes:
>I am looking for information related to the use of the dog in
>period. This would include books, paintings or other artworks
>describing/depicting the breeds, training, accoutrements (barding,
>collars, etc), activities and pretty much anything else canine
>related.
If you want a good modern book then there is an excellent book called
'The Hound and Hawk' (or something like that) which details the quarry
techniques of hunting, huntsment hawks falcons and the Dogs! I'll try &
find the refs.
However you can cut out the middleman if you can get a copy of 'Master of Game'
by Edward Duke of York (of Agincourt fame) who wrote an English version
of Gaston Phoebus's book on Hunting which is lavishly illustrated ... the
illustrations are in the Bibliotheque Nationale de France at
www.bnf.fr/enluminures/manuscrits/aman10.htm
Also the Devonshire Tapestries in the V&A have good illustrations of the use of
dogs, including hounds, in various hunts.
Dave
From: manfred at internetland.net (James M. Politte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hounds in Period
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:12:56 -0600
david_key at vnet.ibm.com (Dave Key) wrote:
> "M. Jantz" <mjantz at freenet.mb.ca> writes:
>
> >I am looking for information related to the use of the dog in
> >period. This would include books, paintings or other artworks
> >describing/depicting the breeds, training, accoutrements (barding,
> >collars, etc), activities and pretty much anything else canine
> >related.
Many of the national breed clubs have books or magazines that give the
history of the breed. I documented the Borzoi (Russian Wolfhound) for
inclusion in my heraldic device using an article in a breed magazine.
Many such articles are written by scholar and historians of the breeds in
question and contain extensive bibliographies for the purpose of
documentation.
Gospozha Akilina Ioannna Rostislavova (called "Newt")
mka Monica E. Barry
newt at smartnet.net
From: david_key at vnet.ibm.com (Dave Key)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hounds in Period
Date: 31 Oct 1996 12:53:56 GMT
Organization: IBM UK (Hursley)
In <manfred-2910961612560001 at news.internetland.net>, manfred at internetland.net (James M. Politte) writes:
>> In <Pine.SUN.3.91.961024131028.5708B-100000 at vger.cpnet.net>, "M. Jantz"
>> >I am looking for information related to the use of the dog in
>> >period. This would include books, paintings or other artworks
>> >describing/depicting the breeds, training, accoutrements (barding,
>> >collars, etc), activities and pretty much anything else canine
>> >related.
>
>Many of the national breed clubs have books or magazines that give the
>history of the breed. I documented the Borzoi (Russian Wolfhound) for
>inclusion in my heraldic device using an article in a breed magazine.
>Many such articles are written by scholar and historians of the breeds in
>question and contain extensive bibliographies for the purpose of
>documentation.
Whilst I do not doubt the ability of most breed clubs to trace the ancestry
of their 'breed' there are dangers in following this path:
As a keen member of the Deerhound Club (one of the oldest breed clubs) it
is very noticeable the 'debate' between the Deerhound supporters & the
Wolfhound supporters which is the older breed ... this has not a little
pride attached to it ... so the objectivity of some breed clubs can be 'a
little bit stretched' at times.
This is further complicated by the fact that 'breeds' as we know them today
can not be directly equated to medieval dogs. A comparison is the difference
between breeds & types of Horses (in Britain at least) where a cob is a type
but a Welsh Cob Section D is a breed. The difference lies in pedigrees & without
them you have a type. Since pedigrees are a c19th thing (as regards dogs) even
similar names may not necessarily mean the same dog. For example c14th/c15th
English sources do list staghounds, buckhounds, deerhounds etc. but it would be
a poor historian who equated these directly to either the deerhound as we know
it today (or even the stag hound ... which is more like a large beagle today!).
Also consider the problems that the medieval horse has caused ... the Shire horse is always described as the descendent of the Destrier ... but whatever its
origins ... it is not the same thing now.
The best you can do is to look at the illustrations & read the original descriptions (for which Gaston Phoebus & Edward of York are the best sources I know) & approximate ... but be honest about the fact that these MAY not be the same. Hence when talking about my deerhounds to the public I stress that to the
medieval man these would have been lumped into the category of greyhound
(much as a deerhound, borzoi afgan wolfhound etc. are all sighthounds).
Edward of York does differentiate between large & small greyhounds ... to be
used according to the quarry ... but they are all greyhounds.
Dave
From: manfred at internetland.net (James M. Politte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hounds in Period
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 15:59:32 -0600
> As a keen member of the Deerhound Club (one of the oldest breed clubs) it
> is very noticeable the 'debate' between the Deerhound supporters & the
> Wolfhound supporters which is the older breed ... this has not a little
> pride attached to it ... so the objectivity of some breed clubs can be
> 'a little bit stretched' at times.
Hmmm... We don't seem to share this kind of conceit on this side of the
ocean. The BCOA acknowledges that our breed is old in its origins but
could hardly be considered the same dog that was being bred and used for
hunting in the Middle Ages. The earliest documentation that I've
encountered was a paper by a Russian scholar (translated to English) who
mentions the breed in a form truer to our present type in the late
16th/early 17th century. I don't doubt that Scottish Deerhounds are an
older breed but I could honestly care less whose dog is the "most
period". Borzoi barely squeaked in under the wire to be considered
"period" as far as I'm concerned, and that's good enough for me, AND the
heralds.
> This is further complicated by the fact that 'breeds' as we know them today
> can not be directly equated to medieval dogs.
This fact does, indeed, wound the pride of my Irish Wolfhound fancier friends.
> The best you can do is to look at the illustrations & read the original
descriptions
> (for which Gaston Phoebus & Edward of York are the best sources I know) &
> approximate ... but be honest about the fact that these MAY not be the same.
> Hence when talking about my deerhounds to the public I stress that to the
> medieval man these would have been lumped into the category of greyhound
> (much as a deerhound, borzoi afgan wolfhound etc. are all sighthounds).
> Edward of York does differentiate between large & small greyhounds ... to be
> used according to the quarry ... but they are all greyhounds.
Somebody asked for help with sources, I gave it my best shot. I'm sorry
if my response was less than pleasing to you. I believe that the original
poster was enquiring as to various sources of information on ALL of the
hound breeds, not just greyhounds. Picky-picky!
> Cheers,
> Dave
---Monica, who was looking to help somebody find different sources of
information, NOT pick a fight.
newt at smartnet.net
From: dbeasthlr at aol.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Horses and Hounds in the SCA by Donwenna
Date: 2 Dec 1996 17:20:26 GMT
Greetings from Lady Donwenna Beast Healer, SCA Officer for Animal
Activities under the Marshallate,
The Animal Acitivities are comprised of Horses and Hounds. The Hounds
Activities have begun with Hound Coursing and are adding in other period
activities like draft work and HuntingThese events are fairly new to the
SCA and are still under development. My SCA-wide Deputy
for Hounds is Master Gordan Beawulf of Midrealm and he can provide further
info on the topic.
Equestrian activities are comprised of Mountee Military Training
Exercises, Mounted Progresses/Processionals, and Quadrilles.&