cattle-msg - 9/25/04
Period cattle and cattle raising.
NOTE: See also the files: livestock-msg, roast-meats-msg, dairy-prod-msg, butter-msg, cheese-msg, cheesemaking-msg.
************************************************************************
NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: shafer at ferhino.dfrc.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer)
Subject: Re: Any word from 30 Year
Organization: NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards CA
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:09:38 GMT
...
Now to edge this back to something more relevant, being able to carry
a large number of animals through the European winters is a
post-period developement. Lord Townsend, known in the Colonies as the
author of the Stamp Act and called "Turnip" Townsend by his peers,
worked with Jethro Tull to find a technique for overwintering cattle
instead of slaughtering all but minimal breeding stock. The solution,
as you may have guessed, involved feeding turnips (and swedes and
rutabagas and sugar beets) during the winter, as there wasn't enough
hay to carry them and the grain was eaten by people, not animals. The
root vegetables, however, provided sufficiently more energy using the
same amount of land compared to hay that this changed animal
husbandry.
A more subtle effect of this inability to overwinter stock was greater
period use of pork and poultry instead of beef, particularly in the
lower reaches of society. Poultry, of course, reproduce generously
and reach edibility quickly. Pigs farrow big litters that will be big
enough to slaughter when the first frost comes and pork is readily
preserved. Besides, poultry and pigs are better at foraging than are
cattle.
--
Mary Shafer NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA
SR-71 Flying Qualities Lead Engineer Of course I don't speak for NASA
shafer at ferhino.dfrc.nasa.gov DoD #362 KotFR
URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html
From: gfrose at cotton (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Any word from 30 Year
Date: 20 Jun 1996 21:46:09 GMT
Greetings, all, from Katerine Rountre.
Mary Shafer wrote:
: A more subtle effect of this inability to overwinter stock was greater
: period use of pork and poultry instead of beef, particularly in the
: lower reaches of society. Poultry, of course, reproduce generously
: and reach edibility quickly. Pigs farrow big litters that will be big
: enough to slaughter when the first frost comes and pork is readily
: preserved. Besides, poultry and pigs are better at foraging than are
: cattle.
You may be right about the lower classes; that does not seem to be
what's going on in the upper classes, however. There is lots of
direct evidence (much of which can be found in _Du Manuscrit a
la Table_) that poultry was a higher _status_ food than any four
legged meat, and that this was as true in high summer as at
Christmas time. Also, there is no evidence that winter feasts
lacked fresh four-legged meat relative to summer ones.
There is, however, evidence of several forms that beef was the
least preferred of all four legged meats year round. There is
some reason te believe that this is grounded at least partly in
the strains of cattle available -- what they were eating was
far closer to what we would today call ox (and what was in fact
referred to as oxen in lists of animals obtained for feasts)
than to what we would today call beef steers.
Also, of course, beef were not normally eaten before they are
about one year old, and then as veal. Recipes distinguish
veal from beef, and veal is the more popular (not surprising,
considering the sort of beef we're talking about), but oxen
held to serve as beef plus cows held to bear young will necessarily
outnumber veal calves, unless you intend to decrease the meat
production level of your herd every year. That means that all your
beeves wintered over at least one year, and most wintered several.
(This is true regardless of the class of the owner.)
From the point of view of the lower classes, of course, oxen
are more difficult to raise than chickens, and have a _far_ lower
birth rate (your "minimal breeding stock" must include at least
one cow for every animal you intend to kill in the following
year) -- but at least as much to the point, they are far more
useful alive.
-- Katerine/Terry
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: shafer at ferhino.dfrc.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer)
Subject: Re: Any word from 30 Year
Organization: NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards CA
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 18:21:25 GMT
On 20 Jun 1996 21:46:09 GMT, gfrose at cotton (Terry Nutter) said:
T> From the point of view of the lower classes, of course, oxen are
T> more difficult to raise than chickens, and have a _far_ lower birth
T> rate (your "minimal breeding stock" must include at least one cow
T> for every animal you intend to kill in the following year) -- but
T> at least as much to the point, they are far more useful alive.
Er, oxen are castrated male cattle, not a breed of cattle, and don't
really have a birth rate, if you see what I mean. That is, a male
calf might be selected to become an ox, but one doesn't breed them,
although one might breed _for_ one, using parents whose offspring had
made good oxen previously.
Oxen are work animals, made docile by castration, and are, as you say,
very valuable alive, particularly since they are only eaten when
they've lost their work value. Since this usually happened because of
age, they were probably not nearly as edible as yearling beef, or
veal.
Skip this next paragraph if you're squeamish about castration, please!
I believe I've read that oxen were castrated at an older age than
modern steers. Modern steers are castrated at or near birth, but I
think oxen were castrated at about a year. In modern steers, they're
castrated young and then receive a testosterone implant so that they
have its benefit in their early growth. However, the implant only
lasts about six months, in part because testosterone at an older age
produces behavior that is counterproductive to weight gain. Forgive
me for not being more explicit, but I know that many squeamish people,
particularly men, find this subject very distasteful and I don't feel
very comfortable going on about the hormonal development and sexual
behavior of cattle, if you see what I mean.
In addition, once again dragging this back to period practices, it's
my understanding that the bulls were owned by the local gentry (holder
of the manor, knight, priory, etc), so that the less affluent had only
to support the breeding cows. One bull can easily service twenty or
thirty cows, so this was an efficient use of resources. I'm not sure
if providing the services of the bull was part of the duty of the
gentry or if some sort of fee was charged, but I suspect that the
former was very common. After all, the tenants owed certain duties to
the landholder and it would be surprising if the reverse were not
true.
We have three bulls for about seventy cows; we used to rent the bulls
from Hertz but now we buy our own, our herd having gotten big enough
that we are not so concerned about inbreeding. One last tidbit of
bull lore; bulls from breeds commonly used for milk production tend to
be very easy-going and fairly safe to be around, but beef bulls are
generally exactly the opposite.
--
Mary Shafer NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA
SR-71 Flying Qualities Lead Engineer Of course I don't speak for NASA
shafer at ferhino.dfrc.nasa.gov DoD #362 KotFR
URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html
From: patrick1 at rica.net (Jimmy Patrick)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Beef and Cattle Raising (Was: Re: Any word from 30 Year)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 20:12:38 GMT
Condensed history of medieval moo-cows in reponse to
Curious Kimberly <kim at inna.net> who wrote:
.......................
>Someone told me the cattle of the medieval world were much smaller than those
>we breed today. She mentioned them not being much larger than a shetland
>pony, and were often driven by dogs (much like sheep)..............
All modern cattle- Bos taurus- are descended from aurochs (Bos
primigenius) that were found all thru Europe. The last auroch that we
know of was killed in the medieval period. They were as tall as most
modern cattle, not as "beefy" <g> and had long curved horns. They
were IMHO very scary critters.
By the start of the medieval period there were a number of distinct
domestic cattle varieties. Several were as small as you said,
probably (IMO again) for the practical reason of handling them. A
museum farm near me has a few of an Irish breed that are dated back
into the 1500's. They are about 40-48 inches at the shoulder, are
hardy, and have very nice dispositions. Their milk is _over_ 30% fat,
which is probably why the breed was kept so long!
Cattle (today) are harder to drive with dogs because 1) the dogs are
so small to them, and 2)cattle -esp. cow with calf- are more ornery
than sheep. There are several dog breeds just for cattle driving and
the better herding dogs can be easily trained to herd cattle.
(see http://worm.biosci.arizona.edu/Stockdog/stockdog.html)
Many people don't train their smaller dogs for cattle because if the
dog (or the person) goofs up the dog can die.
Yours truly,
Jimmy
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:30:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Carol at Small Churl Books <scbooks at neca.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: old breeds of farm animals
>> Would the loss of size be related to probable extreme inbreeding
>> due to small numbers in the breeding herds?
Some speculation: I've read that a lot of people in the medieval villages
had quite small holdings. If you were trying to raise a milk animal in,
say, your back yard, a small cow might be an advantage. People now use milk
goats this way.
Also, a very small cow would be much SAFER to have around. Cows in heat are
very dangerous. My mother has a story about a cow in heat trying to jump on
her (she ducked and it jumped over). Cows in heat climb on things - like
pick-up trucks. It is when they will stand still to have another animal get
ON THEM that they are ready to breed. Safety in handling the cow might have
been even more important since they did not have modern methods of de-horning.
So I could easily imagine that small cows would be informally selected by
the ordinary folk.
Lady Carllein
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:27:34 -0500 (CDT)
From: "J. Patrick Hughes" <jphughes at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
To: SCA-ARTS list <sca-arts at listproc.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: Re- Mediaeval chickens and
This is actually about the cattle in Ireland. In O'Croinin' _Early
Medieval Ireland_ he comments that the parchment used in Ireland was calf
skin as opposed to the sheep skin more frequent on the mainland of Europe.
He also notes the tendency to have a greasy texture which indicates
overfeeding on grass. He later goes on to cite a study made by Kathleen
Ryan, "Parchment as faunal record" in the University of Pennsylavania
Journal IV (1987) pp 124-138.She estimated that a theoretical book of 140
folios (70 skins) meant a figure of 438 adult cattle as the number of a
heard required to produce such a manuscript. The estimate "assumes that
up to fifty percent of all male calves were culled in summer. The rest
being slaughtered in their second autum and only the bulls and milch cows
being retained." I though this might be of interest to people on the
list.
Charles O'Connor
jphughes at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:22:23 -0600 (CST)
From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming)
Subject: SC - Period Dairying, Etc.
Greetings. For the person looking for information on period dairy
practices and cheesemaking try _The English Housewife_ by Gervase
Markham, 1615. There is a good edition out by Michael Best,
McGill-Queen's University Press, 1986, ISBN 0-7735-0582-2. He has a
chapter on the practices that a good housewife should follow. While I
don't believe there are "recipes" per se he does mention certain types
of cheeses and what one should do with the whey, curds, etc.
There is also another fascinating book, _The Country House Kitchen,
1650-1900_, edited by Sambrook and Brears. While the dates indicate
OOP, this book takes some of the manors belonging to England's National
Trust and details the architectural plans and layout of the kitchens
and related rooms. Tucked in with all the OOP material are references
to period practices. There are numerous references to dairies and
dairying. I don't know where one might find the book. It is esoteric
enough that most public libraries wouldn't have it and expensive enough
that most SCAers wouldn't have it. I have a copy, but then, I'm single
and a pack rat for books! If there's something specific - dairy
layout, items needed for a "perfect" dairy or dairyroom, post me and I
will send what I can find, time willing.
Alys Katharine
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 16:00:29 -0500
From: "I. Marc Carlson" <LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.edu>
Subject: Medieval Cattle *LONG* (was Cost of Things)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
I'm having some trouble tracking down the information for the medieval
Continent, but for Britain it seems pretty straightforward...
>I'll take a look and see if I can pull out the "ancient" breeds from the
>more modern ones in this text. And I am still looking for information
>on such cattle.
>Marc/Diarmaid O'Duinn
Just to set the stage:
Domesticated cattle (B. Taurus). Height of 150 cm (59"), and
weigh 410-910 kg (900-2,000 lbs). Eat 70 kg (155 lbs) of
green grass a day Eat 1.4 kg (3 lbs) of silage or .45 kg (1 lb)
of hay for every 100 lbs of body weight. Lactating cows require
an additional .45 kg (1 lb) of grain or feed for every 3 lbs
of milk it produces [2.7-4.4 gallons per day. Milk weighs
3.9 kg (8.6 lbs) per gallon].
Cattle were raised principly in history for either milk production
or for muscle. Beef and leather are byproducts of an animal that
has either died or is somehow otherwise surplus.
For the following material the following standard is used:
Size information:
[female cm (in.); kg (lbs)/male cm (in.); kg (lbs)]
Size of British Cattle (to the top of the shoulder):
Postglacial Aurochs
[147 cm (57.9")/157 cm (61.8")]
Neolithic Domestic (c2600 BCE) [Longhorns]
[125 cm (49")]
Late Neolithic, Beaker, and Early Bronze Age (c1900 BCE)
[122 cm (48")]
Middle Bronze Age (1000 BCE)
[109 cm (43")]
Iron Age (300 BCE)
[107 cm (42")]
Romano-British (1st -4th C)
[112 cm (44")]
Anglo-Saxon & Scandanavian (7th-10th C)
[115 cm (45.3") or 104.6-121.4 cm (40.9"-47.8")]
Saxo-Norman and High Medieval (11th-13th C)
[110 cm (43.3") or 100-130 cm (39.4-51.2")]
Later Medieval (14th-15th C)
[109 cm (42.9")]
Tudor (late 15th-16th C)
[120 cm (47.2")]
18th C
[138 cm (54.3")]
Modern English Longhorn
[130-140 cm (51"-55")/150 cm (59")]
Modern Dexter
[91.4-106.7 cm (36"-42")/96.5-111.76 cm (38"-44")]
For comparison:
Greenlander (extinct)
[100-110 cm (39.4"-43.3")]
Therefore, in Britain, at least, cattle in the Middle Ages were
smaller than the "average" modern cattle (I *think* 110 cm: 150 cm
is about 73% and about 3.6"). On the other hand, the different
breeds can give you a different idea of what an average Bovine
should look like both then and now. Most breeds of cattle can not
be dated accurately before the 17th century.
SOME assumed pre-17th century breeds?
"Alpine" Brown Cow. Lower alps in Switzerland and Germany. Bred
into the Swiss Brown. Large. Work/Milk
Aurochs (Bos "Primigenius") Currently extinct, other than "bred
back" recreations. [aka auerochse, ur, boeuf sauvage, oeros,
oerrund]. A second shorthorned species was also described (B.
longifrons) although some people think that Lognifrons may be
just the female aurochs. [147 cm/157 cm]
British ("Park") White - England. Medium (or Small) and Shaggy.
Longhorns and polled varieties exist. The Chillingham Park
herd allegedly has not had any interbreeding with other herds
since 1220/50. Genetically related to the Galloway and
Highland. [636 kg (1,400 lbs)/954.4 kg (2,100 lbs)]
depending on your sources. Others place the Chillingham herd
at [ (850 lbs)/454.5 kg (1000 lbs)]
Greenland - extinct. Decended from Norwegian cattle (see
"Norsecattle"). Milk [Size based on bones: 100-110 cm]
Icelandic - Decended from Norwegian cattle (see
Norsecattle"). Small. Milk (long body/short legs) [340.9-500
kg (750-1100 lbs)/454.5-772.7 kg (1000-1700 lbs)
Maol - Ireland. Extinct? "Hornless" Medium size? Work.
[636kg (1400 lbs)/909 kg (2000 lbs)]
Whitefaced redbodied Holland
Black "Celtic" in Britain (from which the Welsh Black, the
Galloway, the Highland, and the Angus may have derived).
Red-and-white Sweden/Denmark.
Black and white - Jutland.
===================================
MODERN BREEDS that may be unchanged, or resonably similar to their
Middle Ages ancestors (I would like to know whether they are different
in size or not)
Alentejana - Portugal. Large. Work [545.5 kg (1200 lbs)/818.2 kg
(1800 lbs)]
Brittainy Black Spotted - France. Small. Once work, now milk.
[363.6-409.1 kg (800-900 lbs)/545.5-681.8 (1200-1500 lbs)
Camargue - France (Rhone delta) *Small* Sport and Festival. [295.5
-341 kg (800-900 lbs)/545.5-681.8 kg (1200-1500 lbs)]
Chianina - Italy (central) Alleged to have existed since Roman
times *EXCEPTIONALLY LARGE* Work [818.2 kg (1800lbs)/upto
1818.2 kg (4000 lbs)].
Devon - England. Red. May be descended from B. Longifrons. Work.
[431.8-590.9 kg (950-1,300 lbs)/772.7-1000 kg (1700-2200 lbs)]
Dexter - Ireland (Kerry) *Very Small* May only be 17th Century, or
may be from the oldest of breeds [91.4 cm-106.7 cm (36"-42");
341 kg (750 lbs)/96.5 cm-111.76 cm (38"-44"); under 454.5 kg
(1,000 lbs)].
Flamande - France. Work/Milk. [590.0-681.8 kg (1300-1500 lbs)/
upto 1136.4 kg (2500 lbs)]
Fresian - Netherlands - *probably* post-1700, descended from
Northern Jutland Black-and-White cattle. [636-681.8 kg/1400-
1500 lbs)/1045.5 kg (2300 lbs)]
Grauvia (Grigia Alpina) - Austria, Italy ("Grey cattle" or "Grey
Mountain Cattle") Tyrolian. Some claim to be tracable back to
the Romans. Medium to Large. Milk. [454.5-545.5 kg (1000-1200
lbs)/681.8-818.2 kg (1500-1800 lbs)]
Grey Steppe - Romania, Russia?. "Medium Sized" [454.5 kg (1000
lbs)/636.4-681.8 kg (1400-1500 lbs)]
Hawaiian Wild Cattle - Hawaii - Abandoned by Cook? [318.2 kg
(700)/545.5 lg (1200 lbs)] Used as an example of a related form
feral bovine.
Herens (Eringer) - Switzerland. Work/Sport/Milk. [119 cm (46.9");
450-500 kg (990-1100 lbs)/122 cm (48"); 600-650 kg (1320-1430
kgs)]
Highland - Scotland - Medium. May only be 17th Century. [363.6
-454.5 kg (800-1000 lbs)/454.5-590.9 (1000-1300 lbs)
Iskur - Bulgaria. "Medium Sized" Bred from Grey Steppe Cattle,
with some northern breed "in the remote past". Work (some
milk). [454.5 kg (1000 lbs)/636.4-681.8 kg (1400-1500 lbs)]
Kerry - Ireland "Medium" size. Milk. (long body/short legs) May
only be 17th Century [354.5-454.5 kg (780-1000 lbs)]
Longhorned - England (uplands). Large. [130-140 cm (51"-55");
500-600 kg (1000-1320 lbs)/150 cm (59"); 1000 kg (2200 lbs)]
Longhorned - Texas.
[1430- kg (650-750 lbs)/454.5 kg (upto 1000 lbs)] Used as an
example of a related form of feral bovine.
Marchigiana - Italy (Near Rome) May be related to the Chianina.
Large. Work. [590.9-691.8 kg (1300-1500 lbs)/909 kg (2000
lbs)]
Mertolenga - Portugal. Large. Work [545.5 kg (1200 lbs)/818.2 kg
(1800 lbs)]
Modenese - Italy (Lower Po) Very Large. Work. [659.1-759.5 kg
(1450-1750 lbs)/1136.4 kg (2500 lbs)]
Modicana - Italy (Sicily) Introduced by Normans after a plague
wiped out the Sicilian cattle. Medium size. Work/Milk. [409.1-
590.9 kg (900-1300 lbs)/454.5-727.3 kg (1000-1600 lbs)]
Murciana - Spain. Work. [545.5 kg (1200 lbs)/818 kg (1800 lbs)]
Native Cattle - Greece. A Grey Steppe derivative. Very small.
[204.5-272.7 kg (450-600 lbs)/???]
Norsecattle (North Finncattle/Mountain cattle (Fjallko)/Blacksided
Trondor) - Finland, Sweden, Norway. (Long body/short legs)
Small. Milk. Seems to be related (if not ancestral) to a
number of other cattle types in Europe.
Norwegeian Blacksided Trondor [318-409 kg (700-900 lbs)/636
-772.7 kg (1400-1700 lbs).
Swedish Mountain cattle [318-409 kg (700-900 lbs)/454.5
-613.6 kg (1000-1350 lbs)
Piedmontese - Italy. Work/Milk. Medium-Large.
[636 kg (1400 lbs)/909 kg (2000 lbs)]
Pirenaica - Spain (Pyrennes). Large. Work/Milk. [ ???/upto 909 kg
(2000 lbs)]
Prete - Italy (Sicily). Small. Some work. [318-364 kg (700-800
lbs)/ 454.5 kg (1000 lbs)]
Rodopska - Bulgaria. *Small*. Mountain cattle from the south.
Look like goats. Work (some milk) [1760 kg (800 lbs)/1980 kg
(900 lbs)]
Romagnola - Italy (Lower Po) Very Large. Work. [656-795.5 kg (1450
-1750 lbs)/1156 kg (2500 lbs)]
Polish Red - Poland - Dark Red. Medium to Large. Resembles the
German red. Milk. [400-500 kg (880-1100 lbs)/500-550 kg
(1100-1250 lbs)]
Shorthorn - England (lowlands) Bred into other breeds. [590.9-636
kg (1300-1400 lbs)/909 kg (2000 lbs)]
Tarentaise - France Alpine. Medium. First work, now milk. [590.9
kg (1300 lbs)/upto 1090.9 kg (2400 lbs)]
Telemark - Norway - An amaglamation of several old local breeds.
Small. Milk [400-500 kg (880-1100 lbs)]
Welsh Black - Wales. Now Medium sized. Historically, the Northern
black was considerably smaller. May only be as old as the 17th
Century. [454.5 kg (1000 lbs)/???]
Wisent/Bison - Bulgaria, Romania [170-180 cm (66.9"-70.9"); 726-
910 kg (1,600-2,000 lbs)]
Sources:
Armitage, Philip.
Crabtree, Pamela. "The archeozoology of the Anglo-Saxon Site at
West Stow, Suffolk" In Biddick, Kathleen. _Archaeological
Approaches to Medieval Europe_
Rouse, John E. _World Cattle_ (University of Oklahoma Press, 1970)
Walker, Ernest P. _Mammals of the World_ (Johns Hopkins Press,
1964)
"Cattle" _World Book Encyclopedia_ (1996 ed.)
==================================================
Marc/Diarmaid O'Duinn
lib_imc at centum.utulsa.edu
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 22:23:18 -0500
From: "I. Marc Carlson" <LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.edu>
Subject: re: Medieval Cattle *LONG* (was Cost of Things)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
<jesierac at ouray.cudenver.edu (JULIE ELAINE SIERACKI)>
>I'm curious Marc. Your statement that cattle were raised primarily
>for their milk seems in stark contrast to the Welsh practice. All the
>evidence I have seen (in passing, I'm not very knowledgeable about this)
>indicates that the Welsh raised cattle primarily for their beef up until
>the Conquest. Sheep, on the other hand, were raised with milk production
>in mind because they were already going to be kept around for their wool.
>Have I hit on one of the exceptions or am I missing something?
I have no real idea if it's an exception or not, as I have not studied
the Welsh Cattle industry (although I've got some nice research done
on Welsh Cattle :) ). I wouldn't be surprised that there might be some
exceptions that raised for beef rather than for milk or work. I certainly
don't have any indication whether the pre-Conquest Welsh did one thing or
another. What I do know is that milk production is far more efficient in
terms of protein and energy output than meat production. You might take a
look at Simon Davis', _The Archaeology of Animals_. Certainly, in some
circumstances, it becomes viable to spread into pure beef production (I
think Duby talks about this in the post-Plague years in _Rural Economy and
Country Life in the Medieval West_, as the arable land in the Alps
began to be depopulated).
Marc/Diarmaid O'Duinn
lib_imc at centum.utulsa.edu
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:23:57 -0500
From: "I. Marc Carlson" <LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.edu>
Subject: Welsh Cattle (was Medieval Cattle)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
<jesierac at ouray.cudenver.edu (JULIE ELAINE SIERACKI)>
>I'm curious Marc. Your statement that cattle were raised primarily
>for their milk seems in stark contrast to the Welsh practice. All the
>evidence I have seen (in passing, I'm not very knowledgeable about this)
>indicates that the Welsh raised cattle primarily for their beef up until
>the Conquest. Sheep, on the other hand, were raised with milk production
>in mind because they were already going to be kept around for their wool.
>Have I hit on one of the exceptions or am I missing something?
I took a look through what stuff I have on Cattle in Wales, and while I
haven't found anything that definately disagrees with what you say here,
I can't find much to support what I've said either. Both interpretations
seem (to me) to be supported. If anyone has anything else to add, I would
greatly appreciate it. My notes from just today are:
Cattle were of two breeds: Black (ancestral to the Welsh
Black), and White with red ears (like the Dinefwr and other British
park cattle).
The Modern "Welsh Black" is a strong and sturdy animal whose milk
has a high butterfat content milk even on inferior rations, and
they are exceptionally long lived for cattle. The Northern Welsh
cattle were notably smaller than the Southern herd, and it seems
that the distinction in size was principly due to differences in
feed nutrition. The breed is very slow in maturing.
Oxen were kept for ploughing, and other heavy draft work. Gerald
of Wales wrote that the Welsh ate more flesh than bread, but also
oats, milk, butter, cheese.
Welsh economic history seems to have a lot of cattle being shipped
from Wales to England from the 15th centuries on.
At Dinas Powys (Glam):
Large quantites of whole and fragmentary bones of young
animals, in the following numbers 61% Pig, 20% Cattle, 13% Sheep,
Birds 4%, Deer 1%, Horse less than 1%? Interpretations of this
are either that they raised a lot of stock, or being 'the court of
an important noble' they took in a lot of cattle in tribute .
=================================================================
From Davies:
"The evidence which we have is inadequate to suggest any
regional chronological variations in the practice of animal
husbandry, but such as there is clearly indicates that cattle were
a more significan source of meat and milk products than sheep at
all periods. References to cattle were much more common:[note1]
it is the image of the _cow_ in the corn which is so frequently
invoked, not the sheep or the pigs; it is cattle disease which has
serious consequences; it is in terms of cattle that values are
sometimes assessed and payments and/or compensation actually
made;[note2] the Dunsaete Ordinances are concerned, essentially,
with procedures for tracing stolen cattle; it is cattle raiding,
not sheep raiding, which forms the stuff of heroic poetry. All of
this indicates a standard of reference which underlies the
impression of cattle in the total agrarian economy..."
1. V.Kebii, ch.10; 'Ordinance of the Dunsaete', passim; V.Cadoci,
cc.1, 22,24,52,62,65; Canu Taeliesin, I; V.Iltuti, ch.20;
Bromwich, TYP, 46; Canu Llywarch Hen. 91,94; V.S. Dauid.
ch.16; Canu Aneirin, B30, A39; V. Bernacii, ch.10; 'Canu
Heledd',85, BT987.
2. Davies, Early Welsh Microcosm, 53f; V.Cadoci, ch.22.
[Notes:
Bromwich, R. _Trioedd Ynys Prydein (1961). References are by
triad numbers.
BT = Brut y Tywysogyon, Red Book of Hergest Version.
Ordinance of the Dunsaete
= Die Gesetze der Angelsaxhsen, ed. F. Liebermann
(3 vols, Halle, 1903-16), I 374-9; trans in B. Thorpe.
_Ancient Laws and Institutes of England_, I (1840),
353-7.
V.Bernacii = Vitae Sanctorum Britannaie, 2-14.
V.Cadoci = " , 24-140.
V.Iltutui = " , 194-232.
V.Kebii = " , 234-50.
V.S.Dauid = Rhigyfarch's Life of St. David. ed. J.W.James
(1967); trans A.W. Wade-Evens, _Y Cymmrodor_, xxiv
(1913), 1-73.]
========================================================
Davies, Wendy. Wales in the Early Middle Ages. Leicester:
Leicester University Press, 1982.
The Agrarian History of England and Wales. ed. H.P.R. Finberg.
Jack, R. Ian. Medieval Wales (The Sources of History: Studies in
the Uses of Historical Evidence) Ithica, NY: Cornell
University Press, 1972.
Rouse, John E. World Cattle. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press,
1970.
Marc/Diarmaid O'Duinn
lib_imc at centum.utulsa.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:51:19 -0500
From: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson at utulsa.edu>
Subject: SC - Medieval Cows
I'm sorry for the lateness of this, but I don't normally read this list.
My wife tells me that you've been discussing this topic and suggested that
if it has not yet been done to death by now interested parties may want to
take a look at
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/5923/history/cattle.html and see
if there's anything of interest or use there. If there are any comments or
criticisms, please feel free to let me know by private mail.
Diarmaid O'Duinn
I. Marc Carlson
McFarlin Library, University of Tulsa -or- Tulsa Community College West
Campus LRC
marc-carlson at utulsa.edu/lib_imc at centum.utulsa.edu/lib_imc at hotmail.com
http:www.geocities.com/athens/parthenon/5923
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 00:01:46 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Castrated bulls
LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
> troy at asan.com writes:
> << I don't
> recall seeing any evidence regarding the production or consumption of
> castrated steers (probably either because cattle were sometimes expected
> to do a little work before slaughter, or else because even immature
> bulls tend to become upset when you slice off delicate portions of their
> anatomy, and express their displeasure in various violent ways). Has
> anyone ever heard of a period example of castrating bulls or pigs to
> produce large, docile meat animals? >>
>
> The term used to describe a castrated bull is 'ox'. Hope this helps.
Um, not much, although I'm sure your intentions were good. Knowing the
term "ox" (a term I was aware of, of course, but ignored in favor of
terms that more clearly designate meat animals today) doesn't really
differentiate it from steers, which I gather are normally castrated at a
younger age than the bulls castrated for oxen. Some steers, I gather,
are never castrated at all, but it's my understanding most are.
My point was that I wondered how well we can prove, or seem to prove,
all of what you deduce about Platina's use of the word "porcus" when the
word can be translated as pig or hog, while the other standard Latin
word, "sus", designates pig, swine, sow, or hog. What I can deduce from
his choice of word is that he definitely means swine, and means neither
sow nor wild boar (which is another word entirely), and not much else.
The finer points of pig vs. hog would seem to be lost to us from
Platina's perspective, and the possibility still exists that Platina
never knew the distinction existed, not being a farmer.
Is there any possibility that you're making some assumptions based on
what you know about modern pork farming, and assuming that the methods
employed by your grandparents and their immediate ancestors are the
methods that were widely used in period? I mean, "I don't see why not"
is certainly a good logistical starting point, but not exactly conclusive.
Adamantius
¯stgardr, East
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:34:24 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: SC - Ox and Steer definition
timdee at sgi.net writes:
<< I don't know if you are aware that a steer is castrated and a bull is not
castrated. Most people are unaware that a steer is not the same as a
bull.>>
ox (noun), plural ox*en also ox
[Middle English, from Old English oxa; akin to Old High German ohso ox,
Sanskrit uksa bull, and perhaps to Sanskrit uksati he moistens, Greek hygros
wet -- more at HUMOR]
First appeared before 12th Century
1 : a domestic bovine mammal (Bos taurus); broadly : a bovine mammal
2 : an adult castrated male domestic ox
steer [1] (noun)
[Middle English, from Old English steor young ox; akin to Old High German
stior young ox]
First appeared before 12th Century
1 : a male bovine animal castrated before sexual maturity -- compare STAG 3
2 : an ox less than four years old
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:52:33 -0600
From: Jennifer Carlson <JCarlson at firstchurchtulsa.org>
Subject: SC - Steers vs. -- I do apologize!!
What I had MEANT to say was:
On the use of the term "steer" vs. "oxen":
Both terms refer to a castrated bull. Differences in usage seem largely to
derive from the purpose for which the bull was deprived of his birthright,
and the region the deprived bull hails from.
Where castrated bulls are used as draft animals, the term generally used is
oxen. In the American West, and other large-ranching regions, where
castrated bulls are meant solely for the cookpot, the term steer is used.
And regardless of the purpose to which you put the animal, bulls are
typically castrated while still calves. It's safer that way. If you let a
bull get grown before snipping his bits, it will *not* necessarily make him
more docile! So, if you want a plow ox, you'd best alter him while he's
young.
Talana (Who comes from a cattle family, and is fond of grossing out her
brothers with the idea of actually eating what they were cutting off the
little bulls.)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:42:12 -0600
From: "Norman White" <gn-white at tamu.edu>
Subject: SC - Period? cattle breed article in local newpaper
Greetings from Jin Liu Ch'ang,
I remember, sometime back, on this list their was a discussion on period
breeds of livestock. With that in mind, I noticed an article in my local
newspaper on Sunday (Bryan-College Station Eagle, Sunday, January 10, 1999)
attributed to the Temple Daily Telegram (TX) named "Big state slow to adopt
small cattle breed - Dexter livestock raised for both meat and milk
production, advocates say". In this article they describe a breed of cattle
called Dexter cattle which are described as the "world's smallest breed".
These cattle, which stand about 3-3 1/2 feet tall and weigh an average of
750 lbs., are along with another related breed, the Kerry, described as
descended from the predominantly black cattle of the early Celts. The
breed, first noted in 1776 but are felt to have existed well before that
sighting, are an integral part of Ireland's Kerry cattle breed.
I felt that some people on this list might be interested as their hardy,
small size and versatility (use as both a milk and meat) would make them
ideal for people who might be thinking of growing their own for SCA use.
They are described as easy to care for, give birth easy and are long lived.
The article went on to give further information on the breed (milk, etc.).
Jin Liu Ch'ang
m.k.a. Norman White
gn-white at tamu.edu
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:43:27 -0500
From: Carol Thomas <scbooks at neca.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Documentation-on the other hand
>Then again, there are those wonderfully short cattle being herded like
>sheep.
I've read that they did have breeds of tiny cattle, because they were
useful on small holdings and safer to handle. Cows in heat are dangerous,
even if de-horned. IIRC the small cattle were seen in Ireland into
relatively modern times.
BTW, you can get wooden crooks for herding sheep & cows in the US, from
Lehman Hardware mail-order. They serve Amish in Ohio.
Lady Carllein
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 17:36:53 -0600
From: "kgarner1" <kgarner1 at ix.netcom.com>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: RE: Cows & Chickens -size
> For some reason (much theory, no answers),
> cattle in the Middle Ages dipped in size, at least in England, breed
> notwithstanding.
>
> Interesting I know the size supposedly went up with Anglo Saxon Cattle,
> perhaps shortage of food ? In the open field book it goes one about
> restricted pasture grazing etc. Any other farming books you can
> suggest I'd be interested in thanks.
The size of all domestic animals dipped significantly at their initial
domestication. They stayed pretty small throughout the Bronze and Iron Ages
(at least in Europe, although with contact with the Roman, southern animals,
they began to grow (around 2nd century BC on). We get very (relatively) tall
animals in Germany and France around the 1st century and in the UK a little
later. Around the 5th-6th centuries AD, the size in cattle drops off and
some researchers have interpreted this as due to the retraction and fall of
the Roman empire and, thus, the Roman-inported larger stock. The cattle in
these areas were simply reverting back to native type.
Julian ferch Rhys
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:11:09 -0000
From: "Oughton, Karin (GEIS, Tirlan)" <Karin.Oughton at geis.ge.com>
Subject: RE: SC - "bog butter"
> >2) Highland Scottish cattle breeds (such as one would find in the
> >Orkneys) were and are generally rather log-haired.
>
> Ye olde Aberdeen Angus again - don't know which others.
I'm wondering if folks are confusing Aberdeen Angus with true
highland cattle here? They are distinctly different breeds.
Aberdeen Angus is a 'breed developed in the 18th Cy approx for meat
production, thought to have been breed from the original poll cattle in the
areas of Aberdeen and Angus. It's generally completely black and is a very
impressive , if small framed animal. The main reason they are so famous
nowadays is that they produce superb quality meat, they have only ever been
grass-fed and therefore are presumably BSE free ( there have been no
recorded BSE cases), and are one of the few breeds that have been kept
totally pure-bred and each individual specimen has been recorded and logged
for a significant period, giving us a true history of the food source - you
know what diseases they have had, what they have been fed etc.
Highland Cattle are the original cattle from the Highlands of
scotland , and they are longhaired, very shaggy and cuddly looking beasties
with big horns. Historical records from the 18th Cy show that it has
remained pure bred from then, so there is a good chance it's close to the
original pre historic breed - I can certainly see how you got hair in the
milk.
Look at http://www.gsnu.ac.kr/~dairy/cow/index.html for some good
basic information and pretty pictures
For those who want to try eating a piece of Highland try out
http://www.highlandproducers.co.uk/
Karin
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 23:35:52 -0500
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re:BEEF was Imaginary list was Re: Irish Stew recipe
There are at least two new works coming
out on the subject of beef eating in England,
so all the questions regarding when the English
ate beef and the amounts may be answered by
these. Two works already out are Welsh Cattle-Drovers
which examines the transportation of beef on the
hoof to the markets in England and Cattle: a Social
History by Laurie Winn-Carlson which came out
last fall.
Johnna Holloway Johnnae llyn Lewis
<the end>