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pirates-msg - 3/6/08

 

Pirates throughout the Middle Ages

 

NOTE: See also the files: pirates-lnks, ships-bib, ships-msg, Seakeeping-p1-art, med-ships-art, nav-inst-msg, Norse-msg, travel-foods-msg, ship-measure-msg.

 

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NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

 

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org

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From: losarro at aol.com (L Osarro)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pirates

Date: 18 Mar 1995 06:07:46 -0500

 

the Aquitaine was not Gascony, but Guienne.

 

In the period 1200-1300CE, you could easily have been an English pirate

almost anywhere in the European world. In the eastern Med, as a holdover

from a Crusade, former Saracen prisoner, or participant in the wars

involving the shattered Byzantine Empire, the Turks, Venice, and the

Frankish Morea. in the western Med, the dispute between Aragon and the HRE

over Sicily, the continuing wars between Christian and Muslim, the wars

among the Italian cities In the Atlantic, the disputes between the English

and French (cf earlier message re Eustace), the wars between England and

Scotland. and in the Baltic, the various disputes among the Hansa cities,

the Scandinavian kingdoms. Basically, whereever there was trade by sea,

there have been those who made a living by piracy or privateering. So --

choose where and when you want to be; as long as you have the sea, you

have pirates in our period

 

 

From: lsteele at mtholyoke.edu (Lisa Steele)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pirates

Date: 19 Mar 1995 17:36:08 GMT

Organization: Mount Holyoke College

 

IVANOR at delphi.com wrote:

>    > Humm, I don't have much on 13C England at hand. The major problems

>    > would be (1) if based in England, ship technology in the No. Altantic

>    >was still darn primitive; (2) if based in the Med. (a former Crusader

>    > perhaps), then might well be part of an Italian or Arabic crew.

>    >Gibralta wasn't open to Christian shipping until the victory at Las

>    >Navas de Tolosa in 1212. I'll see what I can find...

 

> Well, to begin with, an English pirate in the 13th century would probably be

> working the North Sea and the Channel....  and perhaps the Irish Sea as

> well.  But NOT the North Atlantic, and not the Mediterranean.  (The Moslem

> lake, as it was then!)

 

  North Atlantic as a broad term then, encompassing the Channel and trade

routes from Norway to southern France.

 

  As for the Med. there is tons of documentation that although it was

dominated by the Muslims, Italian (esp. Venetian) merchants were busy

trading with Egypt, Palestine, Byzantium, the Black Sea, Greece, and

France. Check out, FREX, Lopez & Raymond's _Medieval Trade in the Med.

World_ or, of couse, Braudel's _Med. in the Age of Philip II_

(technically post 13C, but ranges all over time to explain how things got

to be where they were under Philip II).

 

 

From: dani at telerama.lm.com

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pirates

Date: 15 Mar 1995 17:46:20 -0500

Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PA USA

 

Jerry Norris <jerryn at crl.com>:

>My good wife had in mind me, who has in mind a sea-dog from England, his

>father English, his mother French.  Current interest is in the 13th century.

 

The "sea-dog from England" phrase is strongly evocative of the 17th-19th

century pirates that movies and Treasure Island have made familiar.

Piracy goes way back -- it flourished in Classical times as well as through

the middle ages -- but my impression is that in most or all of our period

it was more of a summer job than a subculture.

 

That is, pirates weren't outlaws and semi-outlaws with distinctive dress

and customs, any more than Viking raiders were 'rogue' Norsemen.  Rather,

coastal piracy was a respectable -- if somewhat risky -- way to make a living.

 

This isn't to say that a pirate isn't a viable persona, so much as that,

culturally, the pirate aspect is secondary.  You don't get many people who

choose, say, being a dancer for a persona and only incidentally worry about

whether they're Italian or Moorish or German.  Similarly, your background,

your clothing, etc., is going to depend much, much more on whether you're

raiding out of Dublin or Sicily than on whether you fight on land or on sea.

-----

Dani of the Seven Wells

dani at telerama.lm.com

 

 

From: corwyn at aol.com (CORWYN)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Pirates

Date: 16 Mar 1995 03:58:24 -0500

 

Hmmm.  Sorry dani, but you are in fact incorrect about pirates not being a

seperate subculture in period.  Some examples: First, (elizabethan)

period: the distinct subculture was the Tudor navy-they tended to be

fulltime pirates between wars, when they werent starting them.  Also, many

of the towns along the south and Irish coasts existed primarily for piracy

and it's support institutions.  Those  pirates were full time, until they

got nooked by the navy.

 

Earlier, we have the "victual brother (14th century) who were set up much

like the bretheren of the coast in the carribean, except these stalwarts

terrorized the baltic.  Distinct culture, and probably dress, if a bit

warmer than in the carib.

 

Even earlier the channel pirates, for instance the notorious Eustace the

monk, a defrocked (dishabited ?) monk who turned the pirate fleet into a

mercenary fleet, switching off sides between John and the Frech King

(philip?) whenever the pay was better.  

 

And so on.  My personal opinion is _everything_ that is cool about popular

"modern" pirates can be found in period (except maybe tricorn hats...)  

One good reference: Phillip Gosse, "The History of Piracy"

I've got tons more but the system is going down...

Corwyn, Baron, Admiral, etc.  and not at all a pirate any more...ever.  I

meant ever.  really.  

 

 

From: Jonathan Thorne <baron at sauron.hacks.arizona.edu>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: PYRATES!!! website...

Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 10:28:33 -0800

Organization: Barony of Tir Ysgithr, Kingdom of Atenveldt

 

I am posting this for a friend...

 

PYRATES!!!

 

http://sauron.hacks.arizona.edu/sca/pyrates.html

 

 

From: zjohnsto at alsvid.scu.edu.au (Zebee Johnstone)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: West Kingdom Navy (Was: Fringe Groups)

Date: 23 Mar 1996 02:10:34 GMT

 

Fellwalker (destry at netcom.com) wrote:

:    One of the things I definately want to do is put together information

: for people wanting to do this kind of persona...the first person I have

: very interested in the group is a friend who was told by two people who

: really should have known better (they're Vikings, fer gossakes!) that she

: couldn't do a pirate/privateer persona because it was OOP (well,

: swashbuckler types, yes, but by only a few years. Privateers, freebooters,

: VIKINGS, "The Friends of God and the Enemies of The World"? No way!)

: ...and there's no reason even for that to stop anyone from making their

: persona a sailor...everyone in the SCA (persona wise) seems to be sooo

: well traveled...well, a sailor is a natural for that.  

 

A possibility to look up is a group known as "the Sea Beggars".

 

In the late 1500s the Netherlands were fighting for independence from

Spanish rule, led by "William the Silent".  THe independence party

were known as "The Beggars" as their symbol adopted before open

war broke out was a beggar's bowl.

 

During the fighting, the Spanish had to try and pay and support their

troops by Sea, as France was hostile to them, so they had no way to

do it by land.  A group of ragtag mercenaries from all countries,

paid in part with English money lurked in various ports and

raided the Spanish ships.  These pirates were known as "the Sea Beggars".

 

Fairly easy to research, heavily into attacking Spanish treasure ships

but not too worried about who they went for, multi-national,

with a basic cause to fight for...

 

Sounds like a fun pirate/sailor persona to me.

 

Silfren

 

 

From: "Jo Grant" <jo_grant at crd.lotus.com>

Newsgroups: soc.history.moderated,rec.org.sca,soc.history.living,soc.history.medieval

Subject: Re: women pirates - request for info

Date: 6 Mar 1997 16:20:16 GMT

Organization: Lotus Development Corporation

 

Nicky Saunders <nicky at lothene.demon.co.uk> wrote in article

> Is there anyone who has come across any references, please?

 

About the best example of a _16th_ Century Pirate is Grace O'Malley

(Granuail). I've an essay on her on the site at

http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~jaymin/sca (Articles by members). There is a good

book about her called "Granuail" but I don't have the exact reference.

Cheers,

Capt. Seamus

 

 

From: dickeney at access.digex.net (Dick Eney)

Newsgroups: soc.history.moderated,rec.org.sca,soc.history.living,soc.history.medieval

Subject: Re: women pirates - request for info

Date: 6 Mar 1997 17:46:41 -0800

Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

 

Catherine Hedlin  <cdh at eos.ucsd.edu> wrote:

>Nicky Saunders wrote:

>

>> I saw an exhibition a while back on pirates, and there was one display

>> stand discussing  female pirates in the 17th Century. Unfortunately, they

>> didn't have a bibliography or anything useful with it.

>> Is there anyone who has come across any references, please?

>> I've found quite a bit of stuff in the Norse sagas, but nothing later than

>> that so far.

>> I'm interested in all periods of history.

>

>There's a children's book called "Pirate in Petticoats" (can't remember

>the author) that was written in the early 1960's. I think it's geared

>to older children, so that it might contain useful references. There

>were, apparently a number of female pirates in that era (though I

>seriously doubt they wore petticoats). If you find anything else,

>please ocntact me, I'm trying to steer my daughter along a

>non-traditional career path ;-)

 

Barnes and Noble is remaindering a later book about female pirates, "Bold

in Her Breeches", which does sound like they didn't use petticoats...

 

-- Vuong Manh

 

 

From: gothic at netaxs.com (Matt Kriebel)

Newsgroups: soc.history.moderated,rec.org.sca,soc.history.living,soc.history.medieval

Subject: Re: women pirates - request for info

Date: 7 Mar 1997 02:30:14 GMT

Organization: Philadelphia's Complete Internet Provider

 

The female pirates most often mentioned in pirate history books are Anne

Bonney and Mary Read. Both of whom by accident ended up on the same pirate

ship together. They are mentioned in most pirate books and operated in the

early 18th century. I've noticed them mentioned in almost every decent

book on pirates, so a reference shouldn't be too hard to find.

 

Matt Kriebel

gothic at netaxs.com

 

 

From: jcruden at gpu4.srv.ualberta.ca (Jeanne Cruden)

Newsgroups: soc.history.moderated,rec.org.sca,soc.history.living,soc.history.medieval

Subject: Re: women pirates - request for info

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 14:38:47 -0600

Organization: University of Alberta

 

Anne Chambers wrote a book a little while back on Granuaile ( Grace

O'Malley ) a priate queen from the west coast of Ireland the 16th century,

and I believe there's a paper on women and piratery or crime in Mary

O'Dowd's "Women in Early Modern Ireland" published by Edinburgh university

only a few years ago now.

Jeanne

--

Jeanne Cruden, University of Alberta ( hopefully for not much longer),

Canada

 

 

From: e_p at unlinfo.unl.edu (Ed. Pearlstein)

Newsgroups: soc.history.moderated,rec.org.sca,soc.history.living,soc.history.medieval

Subject: Re: women pirates - request for info

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 14:37:36 -0600

Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln

 

nicky at lothene.demon.co.uk (Nicky Saunders) writes:

 

>I saw an exhibition a while back on pirates, and there was one display

>stand discussing  female pirates in the 17th Century. Unfortunately, they

>didn't have a bibliography or anything useful with it.

>Is there anyone who has come across any references, please?

 

     The latest issue of New York Review of Books, dated March 6, 1997,

has a review on page 34  of Under the Black Flag, by David Cordingly.  The

review, and apparently also the book, has some info on female pirates.

 

 

From: "Buck Bannister" <redcoat at clynx.com>

Newsgroups: soc.history.moderated,rec.org.sca,soc.history.living,soc.history.medieval

Subject: Re: women pirates - request for info

Date: 10 Mar 1997 02:04:07 GMT

Organization: South Carolina SuperNet, Inc.

 

I would suggest contacting the Charleston Museum in Charleston South

Carolina.  The city was frequented by pirates and at least one woman pirate

was a citizen of the city.

 

 

From: tmalesic at concentric.net (Tony Malesic)

Newsgroups: soc.history.moderated,rec.org.sca,soc.history.living,soc.history.medieval

Subject: Re: women pirates - request for info

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 10:59:57 -0600

 

On Wed, 05 Mar 1997 10:23:36 -0600, nicky at lothene.demon.co.uk (Nicky

Saunders) wrote:

 

>I saw an exhibition a while back on pirates, and there was one display

>stand discussing  female pirates in the 17th Century. Unfortunately, they

>didn't have a bibliography or anything useful with it.

>Is there anyone who has come across any references, please?

>I've found quite a bit of stuff in the Norse sagas, but nothing later than

>that so far.

>I'm interested in all periods of history.

 

Here are a few:

 

Cordingly, David; Under the Black Flag; Random House; New York, 1995

(Contains an excellent chapter entitled: Women Pirates and Pirates'

Women)

 

Cordingly, David (Consulting Editor); Pirates: Terror on the High Seas

- from the Caribbean to the South China Sea; Turner Publishing,

Atlanta; 1996 (Produced by Salamander Books Ltd., 129-137 York Way,

London N7 9LG, UK)

 

I found "Bold in her Breeches" to be a boring and difficult read.  The

author attempts to force the feminist movement viewpoint and it comes

off very badly, in my opinion.

 

Some female pirates:  Anne Bonny; Mary Read; Grace O'Malley; Mary Anne

Talbot; Hannah Snell; Alwilda; Chen I Sao.

 

Tony

Tony Malesic - tmalesic at concentric.net

Lat. 40.13N  76.49W

************************************************

Peruser of Pyrates, Privateers, Picaroons,

Poltroons and Other Pox-ridden Purveyors of        

Pestilence and Perdition                  .

*************************************************

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: bq676 at torfree.net (Kristine E. Maitland)

Subject: Female Pirates

Organization: Toronto Free-Net

Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:52:37 GMT

 

: : > Does anybody out there know of any books about Granie [sp?] a lady

: : > pirate of the Irish Sea towards the end of out period?

 

For a recent book on women pirates in period you may want to check out:

 

_Women Pirates and the Politics of the Jolly Roger_ by Ulrike Klausmann,

Marion Meinzerin, and Gabriel Kuhn (Buffalo: Black Rose Books, 1997)

 

I have my problems with the book (varying consistancy of scholarship --

and no index, arghhhhhhh) but for a general overview it should not be missed.

 

sinceremente

Inez Rosanera

Ealdormere

 

 

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:40:43 -0600

From: pyrate at batelnet.bs

Subject: Re: Female Pirates

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

 

  bq676 at torfree.net (Kristine E. Maitland) wrote:

>

> : : > Does anybody out there know of any books about Granie [sp?] a lady

> : : > pirate of the Irish Sea towards the end of out period?

>

> For a recent book on women pirates in period you may want to check out:

>

> _Women Pirates and the Politics of the Jolly Roger_ by Ulrike Klausmann,

> Marion Meinzerin, and Gabriel Kuhn (Buffalo: Black Rose Books, 1997)

>

> I have my problems with the book (varying consistancy of scholarship --

> and no index, arghhhhhhh) but for a general overview it should not be missed.

>

> Inez Rosanera

> Ealdormere

 

"Women Pirates and the Politics of the Jolly Roger" was the biggest load

of tosh  I have ever come across on the subject of Pirates. It is a

collection of poorly researched and invented nonsense by three people who

obviously know very little about a fascinating subject. How this book

ever got published is a mystery. For a reliable work on pirate politics

see "Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea" by Marcus Rediker

(Cambridge Press). For an excellent overview read David Cordingly's book

"Under the Black Flag" (Random House)See the section in his book about

women pirates which will inform about Grace O'Malley or "Grany O'Malley"

who you are interested in.

 

 

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:19:40 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - Subtlety Question

 

> 1)    There has already been *such* a hoo-hah in our group about pirates

> and not-being-period and glorification-of-violence and so on and so on,

> that I am extremely hesitant to cross any more lines;

 

Piracy has existed in all waters and all ages.  As soon as someone figured

out how to make a raft, someone else figured out how to take it.  Pompey led

a fleet against pirates in the Mediterranean.  Julius Caesar was captured

and ransomed by pirates.  He then went and raised a fleet and repaid the

favor by capturing and crucifying them.

 

Within the SCA period, we certainly have Vikings, the Irish Scotia, Arab

corsairs, and English sea-dogs.  The Buccaneers and the Red Sea men are

mostly 16th and 17th Century.

 

As for the glorification of violence, maybe we should ban tourneys.  In

general, most of the pirates within the SCA period were practicing freelance

warfare on behalf of their lords and masters.  They are no more or less

violent than the knightly lords who plied a similar land-based trade.

 

As an aside, I have autocrated two pirate events, one Elizabethan Caribbean

and one Medieval Mediterranean.  I've even tried to hustle a friend of mine

(Mongol persona) into running a Chinese pirates event.   They are a lot of

fun if you leave your hat at the door and forget about having court.

 

Bear

 

 

From: wiva at aol.com (WIVA)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: information on pirates!

Date: 29 Oct 1998 10:11:32 GMT

 

Evangeline Faulkner <dkpirate at pacbell.net> wrote:

>I am currently looking for information on pirates before the 1600's of

>course.  <snip>  What I am looking for is types of clothing that would

>probably be worn on ship and types of weapons etc.. Any help would be

>truly appreciated!!!

 

Any reference about sailors in period would probably give you some ideas,

pirates and privateers being sailors when they're not on the account. I can

only speak confidently about the Elizabethan period, but a biography of Drake,

a good reference about the Armada (with pictures), and a general work on the

sailors of Devon/Bristol should get you started.

 

IIRC, the book _Under the Black Flag_ has some info about early pirates, as

well as info on Oriental pirates-- though it's primarily about the "Golden

Age." Also, checking through Mediterranean and Islamic history, especially c.

the Crusades, could give you some info on pirates of that era. There are works

specificaly about the Elizabethan sea rovers, but they tend to be more

sociologically oriented, and while giving attitudinal info for a pirate

character, do not get into the nitty gritty. (Actually, I seem to remember

borrowing a book from the Baltimore Public Library entitled, curiosly enough,

_The Elizabethan Sea Rovers_...)

 

BUT, since many pirates in the period were actually opportunistic merchants,

start with general seafaring info and go from there... but don't forget to

check out Grannie O'Malley (an Irish pirate queen who met Elizabeth I) and/ or

Mary Frith (the notorious "Roaring Girl").

 

W.

 

 

Subject: Re: BG - Rapier Melees

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 19:30:51 MST

From: CADET1313 at aol.com

To: bryn-gwlad at Ansteorra.ORG

 

<< Did

English, Dutch or Spanish sailors in the New World raid with rapiers in

hand or is that more Hollywood than History.

                                Ld Colin Cumberland Bevins >>

 

I can not say for those Papist Spaniards or the Virgin ruled English, but I

can say that the Dutch Sea Beggers used the "new" cutlass circa 1575 and the

oldie but goodie the broadsword. Yes the Rapier was carried for some of the

sailors but if your going to Board, kill all the papists, take what you want

and then sink the ship you need a stronger blade. The use of the broadsword and

buckler was used along with pikes and hooks (there is a great picture of a two

edged sword with a simple single ring guard and crossbar on page 123 of

"The Sword and the Centuries"). I hope that answers your question about the

Dutch. :o)

 

Ld Pieter Rausch

Cadet/Sea Begger/All around good guy :o)

 

 

Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 21:41:22 -0400

From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Letters of Marque / Privateering in the Middle Ages

 

The preceeding notes simply had to do with thanking various folks

for the Carnages crew attending an event. Then Gundo asked the

following question. I thought the reply was worth passing on for

the piratical personas.  Magnus

 

From: SWMyers at aol.com

Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 17:28:57 EDT

Subject: Re: On behalf of the Pirate(Privateer) ship Carnage and her crew..

To: gundobad at www.cytechcis.net, atlantia at atlantia.sca.org

 

gundobad at www.cytechcis.net writes:

<< No criticism here, just wondering...Are letters of Marque and Reprisal

medieval?

 

Gundo >>

 

Privateering is the former usage of war permitting privately owned and

operated war vessels (privateers) under commission of a belligerent

government to capture enemy shipping. Private ownership distinguished the

privateer from an ordinary warship; letters of marque and reprisal

(commission issued by a government) distinguished it from a pirate craft. The

primary object of privateering was to harass the enemy, but it was often

practiced as a retaliatory measure. Licensed privateering dates back to the

13th cent., but the great era of privateering was the period from 1589 to

1815, when privateers became auxiliaries to or substitutes for regular

navies, and when weaker naval powers used privateers as an effective method

of injuring a more powerful maritime rival.

 

BRAN

 

 

From: clevin at ripco.com (Craig Levin)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Black Pirates?

Date: 9 May 2001 16:07:11 GMT

Organization: Ripco Internet, Chicago

 

Cynthia R. Gee <goldndog at usa2net.net> wrote:

>Then Pedro, maybe you can help me too. A few years ago, a group of us down

>here (Trimaris) were invited to take part in a local Pirate Festival, in

>garb, etc. Now, my husband, Don Khalid Romanos, happens to be African

>American, and was asked several times, by well-meaning mundanes and by

>not-so-well-meaning mundane rednecks, if there were ever any black pirates.

>I'm sure that black pirates must have existed, especially post-period in the

>Caribbean, and we told the hecklers so; but how about in earlier times? Is

>there any documentation to prove their existance?

 

Offhand, I can't see why there wouldn't have been at least a few

black pirates in period. Blacks were out and about along the

Mediterranean Sea, sometimes as slaves, sometimes as free people.

Also, the East African cities along the Indian Ocean were part of

the vast trade network of that ocean, which did have its share of

pirates, just like all the rest of the 7 Seas, until the

development of strong national navies.

 

Also, the line between "armed merchantman" and "pirate" was not

distinct. In many cases, one country's pirate was another

country's merchant seeking revenge for earlier injuries; a letter

of marque kept you safe, to some extent, from your side, but not

from the other side.

 

Pedro

--

http://pages.ripco.net/~clevin/index.html

clevin at rci.ripco.com

Craig Levin

 

 

From: ulftonn at aol.com (Ulftonn)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Date: 09 May 2001 23:49:45 GMT

Subject: Re: Black Pirates?

 

>Then Pedro, maybe you can help me too. A few years ago, a group of us down

>here (Trimaris) were invited to take part in a local Pirate Festival, in

>garb, etc. Now, my husband, Don Khalid Romanos, happens to be African

>American, and was asked several times, by well-meaning mundanes and by

>not-so-well-meaning mundane rednecks, if there were ever any black pirates.

>I'm sure that black pirates must have existed, especially post-period in the

>Caribbean, and we told the hecklers so; but how about in earlier times? Is

>there any documentation to prove their existance?

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Jeanne Francesca

 

Have not researched this to well but one place to start is in the fleet of

Dragut (Turkish pirate of the mid 1500's) the  Ottoman army and fleet where

from any Mediterranean nations.  A good place to start might be the siege of

Malta in 1565... hope this helps and if you find something post back so we can

hear about it

 

Ulftonn

 

 

From: David Razler <davidrazler at home.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Black Pirates?

Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 02:16:37 GMT

 

On 09 May 2001 23:49:45 GMT, ulftonn at aol.com (Ulftonn) wrote:

>>Then Pedro, maybe you can help me too. A few years ago, a group of us down

>>here (Trimaris) were invited to take part in a local Pirate Festival, in

>>garb, etc. Now, my husband, Don Khalid Romanos, happens to be African

>>American, and was asked several times, by well-meaning mundanes and by

>>not-so-well-meaning mundane rednecks, if there were ever any black pirates.

>>I'm sure that black pirates must have existed, especially post-period in the

>>Caribbean, and we told the hecklers so; but how about in earlier times? Is

>>there any documentation to prove their existance?

>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Jeanne Francesca

>>

>

>Have not researched this to well but one place to start is in the fleet of

>Dragut (Turkish pirate of the mid 1500's) the  Ottoman army and fleet where

>from any Mediterranean nations.  A good place to start might be the siege of

>Malta in 1565... hope this helps and if you find something post back so we can

>hear about it

>

>Ulftonn

 

Before the Ottomans moved into what had been the old Moorish empire,

were there not Berbers who took to their sea to defend against foreign

trade (or whatever the justification was for seizing the other ship

and cargo?)

 

I thought the word "pirate" may be wrong, though the OED informs me it

dates back, in English, to a 1300s comment about Danish rasiders, and

has ancestry back to the Greek - Based on usage, it was the descriptor

of the victims.

 

"Privateer" is post-period, first used in 1664, and applies

specifically to private ships keeping the "English" shipping areas

free of other nations' cargo ships.

 

Now I don't know of the Islamic captains were government employees per

se, or private aids receiving whatever they catch as their reward for

their effort.

 

                        d/A

(searching his brain to remember *which* secondary reference on either

European or Moorish history has the reference....YMMV too)

 

 

From: ghelena661 at aol.com (Ghelena661)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Date: 17 May 2001 11:11:21 GMT

Subject: black pirates...oh yes!

 

     Sir Francis Drake had a navigatior named Diego.  Diego was by all accounts

African.  He was also learned since he spoke no less than Spanish, English, and

whatever his native tongue was.  From what I can remember, Diego had been owned

by the Spanish, and was a valuable asset to Drake since Diego guided Drake

through the Caribean <sp?>isles occupied by the Spanish.

 

     I have seen this documentation before, but I will have to dig to find it.

Some day I would like to do a Pennsic class about little known pirates and

privateers.  I have been wool gathering documentation for a few years now for

just such an occasion.  In fact, I have a feeling that if memory serves me, the

website could probably be found using a search engine and the phrase 'pirates

and privateers'.  

 

     Drake also wrote some ships logs that survived, and they make for a really

cool read.  I found some stuff out about Drake that kind of took the shine off

my hero worship of him, since it had to do with the slave trade. (the lesson I

learned in  'our heros were really just people who did things right, as well as

wrong, good and bad, acted out of righteousness as well as

selfishness....."ohhh boy, I think I am almost ready for my Six Ways to Leave

Your Lover class at Pennsic...)

 

     I realize that there is a lot of junk on the internet, but I really liked

the pirates and privateers site.  Grace O'Malley, the Pirate Queen was in there

too.

 

     My college recently had a one day lecture called "the history of black

people in Britain".  Lots of people of all colors said the same thing when they

saw the class listed...."there were black people in Britain?"  Yep, there were.

I have some cool pictures of black people wearing Elizabethan.....

 

     In the Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd, there is a blurb about a

needlemaker in the cheapside who would take no apprentices in order to have no

competion.  He made needles in spanishe style, and he was also a black man.  

If I get real ambitious, I might be able to tease this factiod out of that

rather large book.

 

     If anybody is interested, I will try to dig up more stuff about black

people and Elizabethan history.  I am afraid that will be the limit of my scope

since Elizabethan is what I do!  Sorry this does not help early period folks

much.

 

I would get off my big bum right now and find all this cool stuff (my interest

is all piqued), but it is 7 am and I have been up all night.

 

May your threads never tangle,

Roxanne Greenstreet    

 

 

Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 14:58:38 -0400

From: James Koch <alchem at en.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: black pirates...oh yes!

Organization: EriNet Online Communications - Dayton, OH

 

Ghelena661 wrote:

>      Sir Francis Drake had a navigatior named Diego.  Diego was by all accounts

> African.  He was also learned since he spoke no less than Spanish, English, and

> whatever his native tongue was.  From what I can remember, Diego had been owned

> by the Spanish, and was a valuable asset to Drake since Diego guided Drake

> through the Caribean <sp?>isles occupied by the Spanish.

 

A large percentage of pirates were African.  When pirates captured

ships, they usually encouraged crew members to join them, including

slaves whom they freed in abundance.

 

An excellent book on the subject is "Expedition Whydah" by Barry

Clifford. Clifford salvaged the Bellamy fleet from the sands of Cape

Cod.  When he tried to open his pirate museum in Boston he was blocked

by African American organizations who objected to the fact that he was

depicting pirates as being African!  He tried several other cities in

Florida and along the East coast but was picketed everywhere.  The

museum was eventually opened at Provincetown on the tip of Cape Cod. No

strong NAACP presence there.

 

But this is nothing new.  History has been grossly simplified over the

ages.  Some of Cortez's conquistodors were of African descent.  Many

more though were Jews (conversos), who left Spain to avoid the watchful

eye of the Church.  One of Cortez's most famous fighters was a woman

(one of many on the expedition) named Maria Estrada.

 

Jim Koch (Gladius The Alchemist)

 

 

From: clevin at ripco.com (Craig Levin)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Black Pirates?

Date: 14 May 2001 16:55:12 GMT

Organization: Ripco Internet, Chicago

 

David Razler  <david.razler at home.com> wrote:

>Before the Ottomans moved into what had been the old Moorish empire,

>were there not Berbers who took to their sea to defend against foreign

>trade (or whatever the justification was for seizing the other ship

>and cargo?)

 

Oh, sure. One of the justifications the Portuguese used in taking

over their Maghribi enclaves like Tangier and Ceuta (now the

property of Spain) was that the cities were preying on ships.

However, Berber!=sub-Saharan African, though the trade in sub-

Saharan Africans did have termini along the Maghrib.

 

>I thought the word "pirate" may be wrong, though the OED informs me it

>dates back, in English, to a 1300s comment about Danish rasiders, and

>has ancestry back to the Greek - Based on usage, it was the descriptor

>of the victims.

 

Interesting. I'd have to look in Casson's _The Ancient Mariners_

to see what the Latin term is, because my recollection of Casson

is that piracy was endemic to the Med. for about as long as there

were people sailing on it.

 

>"Privateer" is post-period, first used in 1664, and applies

>specifically to private ships keeping the "English" shipping areas

>free of other nations' cargo ships.

 

Er? Privateering was used by most nations and the Hansards.

 

>Now I don't know of the Islamic captains were government employees per

>se, or private aids receiving whatever they catch as their reward for

>their effort.

 

My recollection of Braudel's _The Mediterranean_ is that they

were private individuals trawling through shipping-infested

waters, who were expected to grease the palms of TPTB every so

often. Since they grew rich, these folks often effectively ran

the ports.

 

Pedro

--

http://pages.ripco.net/~clevin/index.html

clevin at rci.ripco.com

Craig Levin

 

 

From: Robert Huff <roberthuff at rcn.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Black Pirates?

Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 22:14:18 -0400

 

Craig Levin wrote:

> Interesting. I'd have to look in Casson's _The Ancient Mariners_

> to see what the Latin term is, because my recollection of Casson

> is that piracy was endemic to the Med. for about as long as there

> were people sailing on it.

 

        "Pirata, -ae", memorable for being one of the rare masculine first

conjugation verbs.

 

                                Diego Mundoz

 

 

From: fairwynd011 at comcast.net (Belle Fisher)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Girls with Short Hair - My take

Date: 4 Sep 2003 15:13:50 -0700

 

>>So I was wondering if anyone knew of any reason a girl would have

>>short hair? The only things I've found so far is that someone in a

>>cloister would probably have short hair, and it seems viable that a

>>female pirate could have short hair.

 

>Someone who knows more about pirates than me can tell you whether

>there are any female pirates recorded for the SCA period.

 

I just joined this group and was reading the posts when this subject

caught my eye.  Although I am getting into the topic a bit late I just

wanted to address two points.

 

First, yes, there were women pirates in period, Grainne O'Malley comes

to mind.  As an Irish woman it is quite possible that she had red

hair, and both Mary Queen of Scots and Elizabeth I are often depicted

in portraiture as having red hair (as I myself do).  When I joined the

SCA many years ago I had short red hair and I bought myself a wig in a

long curly style which suited my persona.  Over the years I added to

my collection of wigs until I had about five in different styles, but

now my hair is long and I never wear them!

 

Second other than wigs almost every period has some kind of head

covering or another.  I am sure there is some very good advice from

the garb people on what would be appropriate for your time and

location.

 

Just my two cents ;-)

 

'Belle

 

 

From: bronwynmgn at aol.comnospam (Bronwynmgn)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Date: 29 Feb 2004 12:50:45 GMT

Subject: Re: Garb for a Corsair?

 

>I have searched the archives for info on

>Corsairs/Turkish pirate garb unsuccessfully.

>Could someone point me in the right direction?

 

You might try this link - there seems to be a tremendous number of links for

pirate information here, and it's part of a pirate webring.

As always when looking for information on this subject, be careful to check the

dates of the information given, since so much pirate info is usually 17 or 18th

century rather than within the SCA timeframe.

 

http://www.applink.net/wolfpack/pirate.html

 

Brangwayna Morgan

 

 

Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 21:10:44 -0500

From: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue at thibault.org>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Garb for a Corsair?

 

Elizabeth wrote:

> I have searched the archives for info on

> Corsairs/Turkish pirate garb unsuccessfully.

> Could someone point me in the right direction?

> I appreciate it.  Thank you

> Elizabeth

 

I think this is exactly what you're looking for -- real pictures, not

fantasy, although this is Europe (not sure if you want Europe...):

 

http://ilaria.veltri.tripod.com/sailorboys.html

 

Happy sewing!

 

 

Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 09:19:22 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A roast for a feast...

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

> Part of what I'm trying to do is drag my end of it kicking and

> screaming towards the more period parts of things- Avraham agrees. One

> reason for wanting hard tack is to give the folks an appreciation of

> what their imaginary pirates might actually have dealt with. There

> really wasn't a pirate culture in period- rather there were crimes of

> opportunity by seafarers of opposing nations, sometimes, or by

> normally legitimate traders and the like who figured they could get

> away with something. With that in mind, I'm conceiving of a tavern,

> where the patrons will get both foods they're familiar with, as well

> as foods they'd have been missing while they were at sea.

>

> --

> Saint Phlip

 

I think you are confusing operational doctrine with culture.  Period

European piracy was imbedded in the culture where it was usually a  family

affair or the silently sponsored extension of "politics by other means."

The 17th Century "Brethren of the Coast" had a more complex set of rules

than most pirates due to their national diversity.  Still, they were largely

a subset of national policies.  In my opinion, the closest thing to a true

pirate culture was among the Red Sea pirates (Europeans for the most part)

of Madgascar, where they founded a short-lived nation.

 

As pirate "cultures" go, I would say that the Barbary Corsairs, who  

got their start in the early 16th Century, would meet your criteria.

 

Bear

 

<the end>



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