reservations-msg - 9/29/04
Handling feast and event reservations. Refunds, paid vs. unpaid reservations.
NOTE: See also the files: demos-msg, event-pricing-msg, feasts-free-msg, tokens-msg, gate-guards-msg, feasts-msg, feast-serving-msg, feast-ideas-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:00:56 +1100 (EST)
From: Charles McCN <charlesn at sunrise.srl.rmit.edu.au>
Subject: Re: SC - paid reservations?
Not being in a Kingdom (I suppose we're renegades in Lochac, whose prince
we don't formally recognise, but that's Normans for you...)
We ask for prepaid bookings. The carrot is the price is usually $5
cheaper (prices are $15-25, all Aussie dollars) if you hand it over
early. Refunds, cancellations, hardship cases, recalcitrants and people
who don't pay are handled ad hoc. We get about 2/3 paying in advance, and
the odd non-payment.
Charles
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 03:58:03 -0500 (EST)
From: DianaFiona at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - paid reservations?
<<
What is it like in other regions/kingdoms? Do you do reservations?
Paid or unpaid? How do you handle cancelations or refunds?
Stefan li Rous
>>
In Meridies we generally send in paid pre-reservations for the entire
event (Our events are usually whole weekend affairs.) if possible, but it's
not required. However, many well-attended events *will* have cut-off numbers
mentioned in the flyer, since halls will, after all, only hold so many
gentles, and kitchens only produce so much food with the equipment at hand.
If you don't pre-reserve, you have to take your chances on getting in on the
feast or not--or bed space, for that matter. And most groups will take only
*paid* reservations. Refunds are given if asked for, but are not automatic.
Most folks don't cancel, as far as I know--they will either transfer their
reservations to someone else, or get a refund later, since they often don't
know that they can't come in time to make arrangements with the autocrat.
Ldy Diana
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 07:24:49 -0700 (MST)
From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - paid reservations?
> What is it like in other regions/kingdoms? Do you do reservations?
> Paid or unpaid? How do you handle cancelations or refunds?
>
> Stefan li Rous
Well, Stefan, you've hit Elaina's big hot topic.
I learned cooking and most of my event management skills in the east and
atlantia. Now I live in the Outlands, where I am making a concerted effort
to teach the art of paid reservations to a largely unwilling culture.
Paid reservations seem somehow to be 'uncourteous' or 'unwelcoming'.
Bah! she cried, Bah Humbug!
I do not understand how a cook can cook a feast without knowing how many
people to cook for. I just can't see it. And my parsimonious (not to say
suspicious...) soul cannot deal with the idea that the cook is given $xxx
to 'cook the feast' and expected to seat all comers.
I insist on an agreement with the group, which I put in writing in my
'bid' to cook the event, that I will receive $x -per- -head- at the feast.
And that will include any notaries to whom the group chooses to offer free
seats. I also put cut off dates for notifying me (the cook) of how many
people I will be cooking for.
Now the kicker is that I stick to it. If my number is 69 on the cut off
day, I will round up to 72 (tables of eight) and that's how many I cook
for. If I get entreaties at the event, or the night before, or commands
from the 'hats' (and that -certainly- happens) - I smile with an attempt
at graciousness and tell them that I have already bought the food and
brought in the serving and cooking dishes for a certain number and that
the feast is closed at that number. Yes, this makes me unpopular in some
circles. We could add 'unchivalrous', 'unwelcoming', 'ungrateful', and
'mean'.
However, I will go out of my way to feed anyone military or otherwise
unable to make an advance reservation - even if I do it in the kitchen or
give up my own seat. I always reserve and buy a seat at feast for myself
- - knowing that I will not be able to use it. It gives me some maneuvering
room. I will also feed willing hands in the kitchen.
It's not so much a matter of how much food is available, but how that food
is to be served. I once allowed myself to be talked into setting an extra
table of eight by the autocrat. They got leftovers from other tables.
There was -lots- of food, but they were served partially carved chickens,
leftover pieces of pie, dishes of cooked 'sallet' that had already made
the round of another table. One gentleman took it in stride and even went
'begging' from the 'higher' tables in a very period way. The others were
- -not- happy.
Stefan asks the autocratting question about how does one enforce paid
reservations, and are refunds made. As an autocrat, I simply do not pass
on to the cooks 'numbers' for anyone who has not pre-paid. My exception
to this is that I will accept an unpaid reservation from someone for whom
I am personally willing to front the money (and then collect it
personally) - there are a limited number of such people. If someone pays
and does not show up I will offer their seat for sale, and if I sell it
then I will refund the money to the original gentle. If I do not sell it,
then I will not refund the money since the food was bought, prepared, and
waiting for the person who did not show up.
So to end my tirade - cooks of the Knowne World unite! Insist on paid,
per head reservations!
Elaina
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:14:46 -0500 (EST)
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - paid reservations?
<< What is it like in other regions/kingdoms? Do you do reservations?
Paid or unpaid? How do you handle cancelations or refunds?
Stefan li Rous >>
Reservations> Shire of Abhain Ciach Ghlas
1) Pre-paid Reservations are taken up 'til the week before the event (that is
received, not post-marked)
2) Cancelled pre-paid reservations after the cut-off date are refunded ONLY
if your space on-board is filled by someone from the waiting list compiled
at the Troll table. (This is not usually a problem because wanna-be feast
attenders who did not pre-register are usually numerous).
3) On-board reservation price includes site/camping fee if any, a light
breakfast side board Saturday (usually), Lunch, feast, and major breakfast
Sunday.
4) Off-board reservations include site fees, Lunch and breakfast. (All event
attendees are served lunch and breakfast.)
5) All feasts are always restricted with regards to numbers of feasters
(ususually the cut-off is 150 to 175 on-board. Rarely, an added side board of
soup/stew, bread or rolls is offered. When it is offered , it is always
served in another location seperate from the main feast hall.
6) Seperate head cooks are responsible for each meal.
Ras
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:22:30 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - paid reservations?
Mark Harris wrote:
> Here in central Ansteorra, reservations have been practically unheard of
> until recently. When I have tried to bring up the advantages of paid
> reservations, I have been shouted down real quick even for feasts as
> good and as period as Baroness Clarissa's. As it is, since no money is
> required, I think the current reservations are not much better than
> none at all, although they do give you a very rough estimate of the
> number who will be attending.
Bingo. On the other hand, if it were me, I wouldn't want it known and
widely circulated that I have a habit of making reservations and then
blowing them off, thereby inconveniencing the stewards, cooks, etc., of
the events without which the society can't function. Among honorable
people, the honor system works rather well, in general. Dishonorable (or
at least really discourteous) people tend to be socially ostracized.
> What is it like in other regions/kingdoms? Do you do reservations?
> Paid or unpaid? How do you handle cancelations or refunds?
In the East, it is traditional to ask that pre-paid reservations be
made. Usually they are, and while you can just show up, you run the risk
of discovering that the friends with whom you had planned to dine all
have pre-paid reservations in, and that the on-board space is all sold
out. Some people are not bothered by this, of course, since they either
don't mind missing the feast, or they regard this as an acceptable risk,
given that they sometimes don't know what events they will be attending
until the day of the event.
When the reservations list begins to look full, the event steward or
autocrat usually begins to contact a couple of people he has reason to
believe will have to attend the event. A phone call will be made, that
goes something like, "Sir So-and-so, I understand you will be taking
Lord Such-and-such as your squire at The Everyman Generic Event next
week, but I see you have no reservation in--would you like me to hold a
space for you?"
Obviously this type of thing needs to be done discreetly and minimally.
Usually I reserve a space for myself, even when I know I won't have
chance to sit and eat. I also will usually make a couple of reservations
for Lord John, and Lady Jane, Doe, when running an event. This comes in
handy when you get the call the night before the event from the foreign
Royalty who planned to visit, but forgot to mention to you that they are
coming to your event.
If there are cancellations, or no-shows, or if no unexpected foreign
Royalty shows up, then there is often a waiting list who will be happy
to use those spaces.
Part and parcel of the reservations question is the issue of
cancellations. Ideally they should be made in advance, as far in advance
as possible, in fact. However, in an imperfect but all too real world,
they are sometimes made on the morning of the event. Frequently someone
will show up at the check-in and say that their friend, Lord or Lady
Stickinthemud, will be unable to attend, and the porter, troll, etc.,
should please feel free to sell that seat elsewhere. Sometimes event
staff will allow reservations to be transferrable, in a case where a
group has made a reservation for several people, have a cancellation,
and then wish to invite someone else in place of the person who couldn't
make it. One might argue that the people on a waiting list should have
right of first refusal in such cases. Sometimes they do, sometimes not.
Refunds for people who have cancelled are usually only given if the
reserved space can be sold to someone else. For example, if you have a
waiting list, and the people on the list ask at the troll booth if there
have been any cancellations, and they are told that there haven't been,
but that eight or ten people with reservations haven't checked in,
either, then the possibility exists that the people on the list will
decide to go to a diner en masse. The event could then end up with
several empty spaces, for which the food, etc., has already been bought
and paid for. The host group will lose that money if refunds are given
on these spaces, and generally won't go crazy trying to track these
people down to give them their refunds, unless they are specifically
requested. Most people with unused, paid reservations, won't even bother
to ask for a refund unless they have cancelled well in advance, unless
it represents a serious financial harship. On some occasions I simply
haven't deposited checks from those people who cancelled in advance, but
I don't think I've ever been asked for a refund by someone who cancelled
at the last minute, whatever the reason.
Favorite excuse for missing an event, BTW: "My dog ate my Pikestaff, so
I didn't have directions, and everybody I knew who might have the
directions, had already left for the event." From a non-dog-owner,
naturally.
Adamantius
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:45:28 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - paid reservations?
> Stefan asks the autocratting question about how does one enforce paid
> reservations, and are refunds made. As an autocrat, I simply do not pass
> on the the cooks 'numbers' for anyone who has not pre-paid. My exception
> to this is that I will accept an unpaid reservation from someone for whom
> I am personally willing to front the money (and them collect it
> personally) - there are a limited number of such people. If someone pays
> and does not show up I will offer their seat for sale, and if I sell it
> then I will refund the money to the original gentle. If I do not sell it,
> then I will not refund the money since the food was bought,prepared, and
> waiting for the person who did not show up.
>
> So to end my tirade - cooks of the Knowne World unite! Insist on paid,
> per head reservations!
I have grown up, so to speak, in the East, and have never really had a
problem with simply asking for advance reservations to be made.
Autocrats will frequently insert the caveat in an event notice that the
only reservation is a paid reservation. Generally I use the classic
Ostgardr / New York guilt trip method: "Our hard-working event staff,
clerks, and cooks appreciate your courtesy of advance reservations." The
fact that the autocrat reserves the right to cut off the troll list at
26 people, if necessary, is implicit, but nonetheless real. Slightly
different approach, but the end result is more or less the same.
I believe that the "The only reservation is a paid reservation" is the
doing of Countess Brekke Franksdottir, one of the founders of the East
Kingdom Cooks' Guild, who expected 75 people at an early EK coronation
(Aonghais?) and got almost twice that, and swore it would never happen
again. I'm sure HG Cariadoc would have a better recollection of this, as
I seem to recall he was either coming off the throne that day, or
cooking, or, knowing him, both.
Adamantius
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 23:42:47 +0000
From: James and/or Nancy Gilly <KatieMorag at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: SC - paid reservations?
At 15:54 18-11-97 +0000, Stefan wrote:
>Here in central Ansteorra, reservations have been practically unheard of
>until recently. When I have tried to bring up the advantages of paid
>reservations, I have been shouted down real quick even for feasts as
>good and as period as Baroness Clarissa's. As it is, since no money is
>required, I think the current reservations are not much better than
>none at all, although they do give you a very rough estimate of the
>number who will be attending.
>
>What is it like in other regions/kingdoms? Do you do reservations?
>Paid or unpaid? How do you handle cancelations or refunds?
Broadsides for Atlantian events often include the phrase, "the only
reservation is a paid reservation."
Here in the Barony of Marinus (the lands mundanely known as Tidewater
Virginia), we ask for paid reservations. On-board reservations postmarked
after a set cutoff date (by baronial policy, normally ten days before the
date of the feast) cost an extra $3 each. (If I'm the steward for an event,
I waive this late-payment fee for anyone who can show me a military ID.)
The number of paid reservations is used as a guide for buying food - for my
events, I take the number of paid reservations received by a week before the
event, round up to the next multiple of eight, add eight, and tell my head
cook to buy for that many. (My last event was our Baronial Investiture, two
months ago. Both of the other Atlantian events that weekend got cancelled,
so we got more people than we'd expected. After consulting with my head
cook, we added two tables to the feast hall - then made up for the extra
people by adding another dish to the menu, and by increasing the quantity of
the soup.)
Cancellations and refunds are at the discretion of the event's steward. If
someone cancels ahead of time, and I'm sure we can sell his seat, he'll
probably get a refund. (I say "probably" because, so, far, I haven't had
this happen.) People who simply don't show up at the event probably won't.
The deciding factor is the financial status of the event - if we're ahead,
we may give refunds; if we're losing money, we don't.
Alasdair mac Iain of Elderslie Argent, a chevron cotised azure
Dun an Leomhainn Bhig surmounted by a sword and in
Seneschal, Barony of Marinus chief two mullets sable
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:49:47 EST
From: melc2newton at juno.com (Michael P Newton)
Subject: Re: SC - Feast budgets
On Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:45:57 -0600 mfgunter at tddeng00.fnts.com (Michael F.
Gunter) writes:
>For Steppes 12th Night I'm planning on 350-400 and I have been given a
>budget of around $1500. Now I can adjust my menu based on that budget
>and those numbers.
>Texans are notorious "stop by for supper" types and reservations never
>seem to work in my experience.
This is similar to the way feast is paid for in Calontir... the number of
feasters is set at "x", normally at 100, the cook cooks for 100, and
people pay at the door when they pay site fee. (too many church dinner
experiences, I guess!) The group having the event gives out site tokens
and feast tokens as an attempt against eating feast with out paying for
it, but from what I can tell it still is mainly on your honor type system.
As for funds, the cook buys the food, is repayed (before feast), the
event goes on to stardom or horrible defeat, and the cost of the feast is
conciderated as part of the event's cost, along with the cost of the
site, MoC's and MoA&S's cost, ect.
Lady Beatrix of Tanet
Date: 19 Nov 1997 09:22:43 -0800
From: "Marisa Herzog" <marisa_herzog at macmail.ucsc.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - paid reservations?
Having recently been at a meeting where the next upcoming feast event was
being discussed this is how it was done: they found the site, took the cost
and decided how many tickets they would have to sell to break even, adjusted
this by the number of people that would fit in the hall, and then had a set
number of tickets to sell. The local feasts here have always been like that-
"better get your tickets soon, as there are xx left".
- -brid
(barony of darkwood, west)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:22:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Macchione <ghesmiz at UDel.Edu>
Subject: RE: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #441
<snip>
As to making reservations: I've noticed in the Southern region of the
East Kingdom, that it depends upon the event and teh feastocrat. Almost
all feasts have limits mainly due to the size of the hall or kitchen, and
when people know who is cooking or expect the event to run large, you had
best send a reservation in advance. I have heard that an event in Bhakail
in Mid December is already close to selling out.
Kael
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:15:04 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #441
>>Here in central Ansteorra, reservations have been practically unheard of
>>until recently. When I have tried to bring up the advantages of paid
>>reservations, I have been shouted down real quick even for feasts as
>>good and as period as Baroness Clarissa's. As it is, since no money is
>>required, I think the current reservations are not much better than
>>none at all, although they do give you a very rough estimate of the
>>number who will be attending.
>>
>>Stefan li Rous
>
>Wow! You mean that even your most famous cooks have to cook a feast A) not
>knowing how many will eat it, B)Without the group having any money to cover
>the cost of the food at the time of purchase, and C)Not even knowing if
>enough people will come to cover your outlay? Sounds like a rather unsound
>business practice to me.
Prepaid feast reservations are not unknown in Ansteorra. I've used them
when A) the event was new and I had no idea of how many feasters I would
have, B) when upfront money was needed and the exchequer was low and C)
when I wanted to intrigue people about the feast. In every case,
prepaid reservations were discounted from the door price to entice
people to take advantage of the savings. When I am taking prepaid
reservations, I'm shooting for having my break even before the event and
making my profit on the door.
For no prepaid feasts, I take into account how many people the
kitchen/dining faciliites can handle. If that number is less than half
the estimated attendance for the event, then the limit of the facilities
is the limit on paid feasts. Otherwise I work with half the estimated
attendance (rounded to be divisible by eight) as the paid feast limit.
(I then add 20 to 30 unpaid feasts to the total to handle the Crown, the
feast staff, who eat free, and any surprises). We do take reservations,
which helps with checking the accuracy of the estimates.
The cost of place at the feast is twice the cost of preparing the food
for that feaster. Thus, break even on the feast requires 25% or less of
the estimated attendance at an event. This reduces the risk of taking a
bath when an event fails.
I've never lost money, although I have come close.
Bear
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 97 14:42:02 CST
From: "Melissa Martines" <melissa.martines at mail.corpfamily.com>
Subject: SC - Paid Reservations
In Meridies we generally use paid reservations for the event and the
feast. In fact, many groups offer a discount if the reservation is
received before a certain cut-off date. Prices after that go up, and
often prices at the door are even higher.
This helps give the feastcrat an idea of how many people to cook for
(most feastcrats I know have a formula of x number of reservations
plus a % of total expected for event)
This also means that people who don't reserve have no reason to pitch
a scene if feast is sold out when they arrive. They know that is the
risk they take by not reserving.
In the two groups I have participated in in Meridies, refunds for
no-shows were only given if requested in writing after the event.
This is not necessarily a perfect policy (it can cause a lot of
headaches and grumbling), but that is how the two groups do it. I
have seen autocrats refund money on the spot to people called away
from the event for personal emergencies or job crises.
Morgan
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 22:41:41 GMT
From: "Bonne of Traquair" <oftraquair at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Feast planning/Administration
><< Sorry, but there is no way I'd be saddled with taking reservations on
>top of planning and executing the feast. >>
>
>Agreed. The Troll in our shire is in charge of reservations. He/she keeps
>the cook informed of the numbers of pre-registers.
It is good accounting practice that people taking money in should never be
the people paying money out, lest the accounting become muddled when they
decide to use some of the cash taken in to make purchases. Reservationist
accepts money and gives it to exchequer. Cook, autocrat, person in charge
of A&S, person in charge of children, and other people needing to buy stuff
for the event receive money from exchequer and go shopping. He was less than
happy once when a reservationist and autocrat were a spousal team, but
everyone told him it was going too far to be that picky about it.
Bonne
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 09:13:36 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Profit was Opinions?
> What you have going for you is that paid reservations have been the
> way you've been doing it for some time. Here in Ansteorra it wasn't
> until a few years ago that events started pushing *unpaid* reservations.
>
> Paid reservations certainly would ease some of the budgeting guessing
> problems.
I've done both paid and unpaid reservations dating back 20 years. With the
paid reservations, I could better control the budget, but I often didn't see
much until the two weeks prior to the event. I still had to plan for a
profit and my break even point, but I could better judge whether I was going
to make budget.
To get pre-paid reservations in Ansteorra, one needs to offer incentive ( a
price break being the common one) and have an event which pique's the
Kingdom's interest.
> What if you have bad weather and half the folks cancel? Can they get
> their money back? I think it's going to be a long time before Ansteorra
> can/will go to prepaid reservations. :-(
>
> THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
Travel distances, weather and the high level of blue collar membership in
Ansteorra work against pre-paid reservations.
Very often it is 200 miles to the nearest event and often 400 to 600 to the
one you want to attend.
The weather is highly changeable and event goers often don't know what the
general weather will be until a week before the event and the area specific
weather until a day or two before. Add to that the weather change tends to
be extreme. I've seen more than one Northern event with low attendance
because of massive thunderstorms around DFW (usually with the Trinity River
trying to flood).
And there is the nature of the job market. I know a number of people who
don't know if they will have a particular weekend off or if they will still
be employed until a week or two before the event. Very often, going to an
event is a last minute decision based on available time and money.
The nature of the Kingdom runs contrary to pre-paid reservations.
Bear
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:36:11 -0500
From: "Michael Newton" <melcnewt at netins.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Profit was Opinions?
I know of groups in Calontir that make you pre-pay the feast but not the
event. that way the Cooks don't buy more than they need and the troll
doesn't oversell the feast. Even with the tokens it does happen.
Thorbjorn
From: clarissa <clarissa at supportyou.com>
Date: Tue May 6, 2003 1:28:40 AM US/Central
To: "Ansteorra" <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Feast Reservation Manners
I have lived in kingdoms where all feast reservations were paid
reservations. I think it worked out very well. Cancellations were much,
much less. The cook knew how many folks to cook for and knew the feast
was paid for as well. Folks actually communicated ahead of time (when
making the reservation) the food allergies they had.
The small shire where I lived in the East Kingdom could not have afforded
to lose money because folks didn't attend. Groups typically returned the
reservation fee if the reservation was cancelled 2 weeks in advance or if
the event could sell that feast reservation to some one else. Sometimes
something would come up at the last minute and I wouldn't get to the
event. C'est la vie! I just donated $5 or $8 to that group. As a cook, I
understood that once the food was bought, the group could not get their
money back. I looked at it this way: I had agreed to let them make
various food purchases on my behalf by making a reservation and I had the
responsibility to protect the group from loss incurred by my inability to
show (regardless of my excuse).
Its been my experience in this kingdom that the reservation turnover rate
is sometimes 50% which makes it almost not worth the hassle of tracking
reservations, quite honestly. Gilli is quite right. If folks can't get a
reservation, they make other plans and so the group will not replace all
the no shows when they finally open up feast to the waiting list. Thus,
groups can and have lost money on the feast AND a lot of food is also
thrown away (which breaks my little cook's heart). Having to absorb
these losses has the by product of groups setting their breakeven on
feast much lower than expected attendance, thus raising the fee for each
of us.
Clarissa di Firenze
<the end>